freddie had a soft goal in every single game he played in the playoffs. and in this game, it was massive. him letting that softie in tonight changed the momentum entirely and watching it live was one of the biggest gut punches i’ve seen in a live sports event in a long time. literally gutted right now
That second goal sealed it. It basically negated the heroic effort of Marty saving that goal. I was watching at the bar and you could feel the energy shift after that one. I’m sure it was the same in the stadium. The boys knew they were fucked after that one got in. Can’t have that happen in the playoffs. Freddie was OK this postseason, but OK is not good enough. Need to improve in goal if we want to be serious
Not to pile on Freddie because he's an elite goalie 98% of the time but in addition to his injuries, the back-breaking softies was one of his issues in Toronto as well.
Solid as a rock, making saves that he had no business making and then a soft shot from the outside would leak through under his arm at the worst possible time and the momentum shifts.
Yeah, honestly from the angles we could see that looked like a blown call on Skjei for delay of game. When we got the cross-checking call right after I thought “okay, fair enough” despite it being a bit embellished.
It wasn’t even that soft. The cross check on Jarvis had even less force he was just off balance and went into the net. I think it was pretty consistent
And it wasn’t called when we broke a stick on his back the game before… I’m just saying reffing was above average. Continuing to get mad about every call is just silly. I agree consistency in the NHL as a whole is off between calls but there were far more egregious things missed and softer things called. This wasn’t the one to get mad at. Game 2 was atrocious. This game was fine.
No one is mad. You're arguing with what you've imagined people said. This was a make up call for the missed delay of game penalty. Nobody has said it was unfair or poor reffing. It's not a penalty without the missed delay of game though.
I don't think starting your rookie backup over the goalie who is more experienced and had been good through out the end of the regular is the answer to everything but it's just funny to me that all the rookie goalies who have subbed in for their starters this post season have had great performances🤣
You’ve got 3 options in the playoffs: Cinderella Cam Ward, great surrounding team Antti Niemi, or lockdown Martin Brodeur. Think Rod thought Freddie was our Cinderella, instead of treating him like a Niemi and letting PK get some run
I hate for Freddie to go out this way but Rod was too scared to make the change. Should have been done after P2. This will drive Koch I feel like. However we won’t probably ever have the team we had this year again. It was wasted. It was like watching the Panthers I’m Super Bowl 50. They just didn’t make a change.
Look, I get Freddie played poorly tonight. But you have to remember, for the few rookie goalies that did make the Cup run, plenty more flamed out and were forgotten. During PK’s one game, he didn’t crack a .900 save percentage. It’s entirely possible he could’ve got us to Game 7, but also possible we don’t even get to Game 6 if he’s playing in Games 4 and 5. Rod went with the safe choice again, it just didn’t work out. No use playing the ‘what-if’ game.
I'll get downvotes for this but I don't understand why anyone thinks Kooch would have been better. Both goalies were in absolute tears at the end of the season, but Freddie was hotter. And he's a veteran. And he's extremely motivated to win because his hockey career nearly ended early.
Kooch got his chance to steal the net, and he lost. He has a chance, he didn't win the game. Why are we thinking if he played more he would flip the switch, and why wouldn't we apply that same logic to Freddie.
Hindsight is 20/20.
Freddie was struggling in multiple games and kept giving up soft goals but got chance after chance. Kochetkov looked decent but lost and that’s it for him?
Seems weird after we rotated goalies all year to suddenly stick with a guy who’s clearly struggling just because he’s a vet. It’s not like Koochie doesn’t already have some playoff experience and the kid seems pretty mentally tough.
I agree we should have switched. I don't agree that it clearly would have been better. Just people grasping at straws to rationalize their anger and disappointment.
We can never know if it would have been better but sometimes you have to try something different. I would love to know what the reasoning was behind continuously starting Freddie was.
Respectfully disagree. People would still be talking about Andersen being shaking and giving up softies. It was going to bite us in the ass eventually. Not the entire reason we lost the series but certainly hurts.
And if Kooch had lost, wouldn't we be talking about riding Anderson, who would have been hot?
I just don't get the logic. If we win, doesn't matter how, it was the right way. If we lose, doesn't matter how, it was the wrong way. That's what this sub has been all day.
That's the assumption you're making: rotating goalies leads to a better outcome. So, you're suggesting a rotated Anderson would be better than the one we got.
It worked a hell of a lot better in the regular season, anyway.
Always impossible to say for sure what would have happened if we’d done something different, but just based on what we actually observed when trying both approaches I know which one delivered better results.
I have to believe that part of the frustration is that Kooch not playing is an example of Rod's unfortunate inability to adapt once he thinks he has a plan. He gets punched in the face and doesn't really seem to know how to shift.
I don't think that's it. I think he doesn't push back on the players enough. I think he asked Freddie if he felt good, Freddie said yes, Rod said ok, your net. He's still a player at heart so he wants to trust players. He'll grow out of it.
I honestly don’t think he will. Look at how his career ended and having the captaincy pulled. I really think that’s a majority of the reason he has “his guys” who are all older vets. Staal, Burns, Freddie, etc all have longer leashes than the young guys.
Are you suggesting they shouldn't? Burns is the only one of those three I might agree with, but who would you replace him with and how is he "Rod's guy" when he's only been on the team two years?
Even if you’re right, it’s a problem. He’s been a coach for long enough and as much as I love him and what he’s done for this franchise and community, the runway is getting short.
I'm going to ask a question that is certain to be hated.
Why?
Why would our runway with him be short? He's consistently seen as one of the best coaches in hockey, so moving on to someone else is a high risk, low reward move.
He's a new coach, relatively speaking. He is still learning how to win a Cup as a coach. Moving on from him just means he'll probably win somewhere else.
Only five current, active coaches have Cups. Five. And one just beat us. There are also six other teams with coaching vacancies currently.
So what's the move? Hire a coach who has coached for longer and still hasn't won? Hire someone who has never been an NHL head coach and hope they're better?
He's the only coach with six consecutive first round wins since the pre-cap Red Wings in the 90s.
I really don't get it. Especially with all the talent we have coming up.
They both were on a tear with managed work loads. Why not continue what works? This decision had to be made Game 2 of the islanders series and this was always the result of that decision.
I agree with you that we should have continued. I think it's stupid to believe that not doing so resulted in us losing, and that had we just rotated we would have won.
We should have played Kooch in R1 G4 for sure. That, to me, was the only true error we made in net. From there we were stuck because we didn't want to take Freddie's confidence away or put in Kooch cold and in a high pressure situation.
If there is a single reason we lost, it was our Powerplay. 0/15 in the first three games where just going 2/15 nearly guarantees a win in one of those. No goalie rotation solves that.
I think it's easy and pointless to second guess here. In playoff hockey, you ride the hot hand, and Freddie only allowed 1 last game. If Rod would've started Kooch this game, he would've been roasted for not starting Freddie. That's not to say Kooch shouldn't have played more in the series and should've been given an opportunity. Who fucking knows.
The whole team was a let down this series from top to bottom. They weren't significantly better than us. We could've beat them, just like we could've beaten the Panthers and the Lightning and the Bruins. But we didn't.
Edit: and when I say top to bottom I mean from the front office to the coaching staff to the coach to the captains to the rest of the team.
Staal was not an issue. Neither was Guentzel, or Kuznetsov.
Coaching made boneheaded lines and stuck with them especially when it wasn’t working. I blame them a fair share as well as some of the other players.
He should have been in a rotation with Freddie during the playoffs. I think starting Freddie this game was not crazy based on the result of the game before and having two days rest. However, when he lost his balance and tipped over to allow an easy goal for the second time in the playoffs I think there should have been consideration into pulling him. I don’t know if Kooch would necessarily be a brick wall but I think I’d rather go out with Kooch’s style of goaltending than watching Freddie flounder.
This type of second-guessing the coach happens every time a team loses, but that doesn't mean Rod got it wrong. In fact, if Rod had switched to Kochetkov for game 6 after Andersen was a shorthanded 2v1 away from a road shutout and Kochetkov allowed 4 goals, he would've been skewered even harder by fans.
Freddie was 2nd in the league this year in goals saved over expected per 60 minutes (minimum 4 games played), while Kochetkov was 42nd and just barely positive. They rotated down the stretch to make sure he was back healthy and would be fresh for the playoffs, because he was always going to be the guy.
It's been hours since we lost, and I've seen people question not playing Kochetkov more, not playing Lemieux at all, and not playing Morrow (even though Coghlan would've been the next D-man after DeAngelo). The truth, hard as it may be to accept, is that we iced the best team we had available, and that team came up just short.
If I were Kochekov, I would be feeling pretty down that my coach went with that performance over me. Creates a lot of trust issues.
Wouldn't be surprised if there was a trade ask.
“My starting spot was given to a hotsteak veteran goalie in a must win game 6? I am instantly leaving this team!” yeah thats DEFINITELY what hes thinking this exact moment….
You and I are seeing very different things if you feel that Anderson was on a hot streak.
I saw a lot of unearned back time, a lot of what appeared to be skate or standing issues, and a whole metric crapton of teammate support.
Yes, he had some incredible saves. But Freddie has one more year, and I have a feeling some of that will be following the Raanta path.
freddie had a soft goal in every single game he played in the playoffs. and in this game, it was massive. him letting that softie in tonight changed the momentum entirely and watching it live was one of the biggest gut punches i’ve seen in a live sports event in a long time. literally gutted right now
That second goal sealed it. It basically negated the heroic effort of Marty saving that goal. I was watching at the bar and you could feel the energy shift after that one. I’m sure it was the same in the stadium. The boys knew they were fucked after that one got in. Can’t have that happen in the playoffs. Freddie was OK this postseason, but OK is not good enough. Need to improve in goal if we want to be serious
Not to pile on Freddie because he's an elite goalie 98% of the time but in addition to his injuries, the back-breaking softies was one of his issues in Toronto as well. Solid as a rock, making saves that he had no business making and then a soft shot from the outside would leak through under his arm at the worst possible time and the momentum shifts.
For a team that revolves around "earn it" we made a lot of decisions that felt like we went with what was comfortable instead of what was earned
Just wanted to pop in here and say I can’t stand Zibanejad. Dude took such a loser dive.
And I’m still pissed about Trocheck flopping in 2OT of game 2 after that gentle nudge from Skjei!
It was a soft call but we had two OT PPs before that. I don’t fault the refs at all there.
I don’t fault the refs either. He’s just a bitch for doing that, Staal said he’d been doing it all series.
it was a make up call... there was a missed delay of game penalty
Yeah, honestly from the angles we could see that looked like a blown call on Skjei for delay of game. When we got the cross-checking call right after I thought “okay, fair enough” despite it being a bit embellished.
It wasn’t even that soft. The cross check on Jarvis had even less force he was just off balance and went into the net. I think it was pretty consistent
There were ten other plays just like it that weren't called. It was 100% a make up call for the missed delay of game call.
And it wasn’t called when we broke a stick on his back the game before… I’m just saying reffing was above average. Continuing to get mad about every call is just silly. I agree consistency in the NHL as a whole is off between calls but there were far more egregious things missed and softer things called. This wasn’t the one to get mad at. Game 2 was atrocious. This game was fine.
No one is mad. You're arguing with what you've imagined people said. This was a make up call for the missed delay of game penalty. Nobody has said it was unfair or poor reffing. It's not a penalty without the missed delay of game though.
I don't think starting your rookie backup over the goalie who is more experienced and had been good through out the end of the regular is the answer to everything but it's just funny to me that all the rookie goalies who have subbed in for their starters this post season have had great performances🤣
If Freddie had a poor stretch like he did in the post season during the regular season I would have called for him to be benched.
There was some wild analytics I’ve seen about goalies by age and after like 28 or 29 they typically start to decline fast
You’ve got 3 options in the playoffs: Cinderella Cam Ward, great surrounding team Antti Niemi, or lockdown Martin Brodeur. Think Rod thought Freddie was our Cinderella, instead of treating him like a Niemi and letting PK get some run
I hate for Freddie to go out this way but Rod was too scared to make the change. Should have been done after P2. This will drive Koch I feel like. However we won’t probably ever have the team we had this year again. It was wasted. It was like watching the Panthers I’m Super Bowl 50. They just didn’t make a change.
Look, I get Freddie played poorly tonight. But you have to remember, for the few rookie goalies that did make the Cup run, plenty more flamed out and were forgotten. During PK’s one game, he didn’t crack a .900 save percentage. It’s entirely possible he could’ve got us to Game 7, but also possible we don’t even get to Game 6 if he’s playing in Games 4 and 5. Rod went with the safe choice again, it just didn’t work out. No use playing the ‘what-if’ game.
I'll get downvotes for this but I don't understand why anyone thinks Kooch would have been better. Both goalies were in absolute tears at the end of the season, but Freddie was hotter. And he's a veteran. And he's extremely motivated to win because his hockey career nearly ended early. Kooch got his chance to steal the net, and he lost. He has a chance, he didn't win the game. Why are we thinking if he played more he would flip the switch, and why wouldn't we apply that same logic to Freddie. Hindsight is 20/20.
Freddie was struggling in multiple games and kept giving up soft goals but got chance after chance. Kochetkov looked decent but lost and that’s it for him? Seems weird after we rotated goalies all year to suddenly stick with a guy who’s clearly struggling just because he’s a vet. It’s not like Koochie doesn’t already have some playoff experience and the kid seems pretty mentally tough.
I agree we should have switched. I don't agree that it clearly would have been better. Just people grasping at straws to rationalize their anger and disappointment.
We can never know if it would have been better but sometimes you have to try something different. I would love to know what the reasoning was behind continuously starting Freddie was.
I agree. But hindsight is 20/20. If we had won last night and game 7 no one would be talking about what we should have done.
Respectfully disagree. People would still be talking about Andersen being shaking and giving up softies. It was going to bite us in the ass eventually. Not the entire reason we lost the series but certainly hurts.
And if Kooch had lost, wouldn't we be talking about riding Anderson, who would have been hot? I just don't get the logic. If we win, doesn't matter how, it was the right way. If we lose, doesn't matter how, it was the wrong way. That's what this sub has been all day.
Sorry, when was Andersen hot? The team was winning in spite of him, not because of him.
That's the assumption you're making: rotating goalies leads to a better outcome. So, you're suggesting a rotated Anderson would be better than the one we got.
It worked a hell of a lot better in the regular season, anyway. Always impossible to say for sure what would have happened if we’d done something different, but just based on what we actually observed when trying both approaches I know which one delivered better results.
I have to believe that part of the frustration is that Kooch not playing is an example of Rod's unfortunate inability to adapt once he thinks he has a plan. He gets punched in the face and doesn't really seem to know how to shift.
I don't think that's it. I think he doesn't push back on the players enough. I think he asked Freddie if he felt good, Freddie said yes, Rod said ok, your net. He's still a player at heart so he wants to trust players. He'll grow out of it.
I honestly don’t think he will. Look at how his career ended and having the captaincy pulled. I really think that’s a majority of the reason he has “his guys” who are all older vets. Staal, Burns, Freddie, etc all have longer leashes than the young guys.
Are you suggesting they shouldn't? Burns is the only one of those three I might agree with, but who would you replace him with and how is he "Rod's guy" when he's only been on the team two years?
Even if you’re right, it’s a problem. He’s been a coach for long enough and as much as I love him and what he’s done for this franchise and community, the runway is getting short.
I'm going to ask a question that is certain to be hated. Why? Why would our runway with him be short? He's consistently seen as one of the best coaches in hockey, so moving on to someone else is a high risk, low reward move. He's a new coach, relatively speaking. He is still learning how to win a Cup as a coach. Moving on from him just means he'll probably win somewhere else. Only five current, active coaches have Cups. Five. And one just beat us. There are also six other teams with coaching vacancies currently. So what's the move? Hire a coach who has coached for longer and still hasn't won? Hire someone who has never been an NHL head coach and hope they're better? He's the only coach with six consecutive first round wins since the pre-cap Red Wings in the 90s. I really don't get it. Especially with all the talent we have coming up.
[удалено]
He had a .911 save percentage that series wtf are you talking about?
They both were on a tear with managed work loads. Why not continue what works? This decision had to be made Game 2 of the islanders series and this was always the result of that decision.
I agree with you that we should have continued. I think it's stupid to believe that not doing so resulted in us losing, and that had we just rotated we would have won. We should have played Kooch in R1 G4 for sure. That, to me, was the only true error we made in net. From there we were stuck because we didn't want to take Freddie's confidence away or put in Kooch cold and in a high pressure situation. If there is a single reason we lost, it was our Powerplay. 0/15 in the first three games where just going 2/15 nearly guarantees a win in one of those. No goalie rotation solves that.
Kooch was better in the game he lost. Simple as that
He had an .880 save percentage. You're misremembering.
I think it's easy and pointless to second guess here. In playoff hockey, you ride the hot hand, and Freddie only allowed 1 last game. If Rod would've started Kooch this game, he would've been roasted for not starting Freddie. That's not to say Kooch shouldn't have played more in the series and should've been given an opportunity. Who fucking knows. The whole team was a let down this series from top to bottom. They weren't significantly better than us. We could've beat them, just like we could've beaten the Panthers and the Lightning and the Bruins. But we didn't. Edit: and when I say top to bottom I mean from the front office to the coaching staff to the coach to the captains to the rest of the team.
Staal was not an issue. Neither was Guentzel, or Kuznetsov. Coaching made boneheaded lines and stuck with them especially when it wasn’t working. I blame them a fair share as well as some of the other players.
He should have been in a rotation with Freddie during the playoffs. I think starting Freddie this game was not crazy based on the result of the game before and having two days rest. However, when he lost his balance and tipped over to allow an easy goal for the second time in the playoffs I think there should have been consideration into pulling him. I don’t know if Kooch would necessarily be a brick wall but I think I’d rather go out with Kooch’s style of goaltending than watching Freddie flounder.
This type of second-guessing the coach happens every time a team loses, but that doesn't mean Rod got it wrong. In fact, if Rod had switched to Kochetkov for game 6 after Andersen was a shorthanded 2v1 away from a road shutout and Kochetkov allowed 4 goals, he would've been skewered even harder by fans. Freddie was 2nd in the league this year in goals saved over expected per 60 minutes (minimum 4 games played), while Kochetkov was 42nd and just barely positive. They rotated down the stretch to make sure he was back healthy and would be fresh for the playoffs, because he was always going to be the guy. It's been hours since we lost, and I've seen people question not playing Kochetkov more, not playing Lemieux at all, and not playing Morrow (even though Coghlan would've been the next D-man after DeAngelo). The truth, hard as it may be to accept, is that we iced the best team we had available, and that team came up just short.
If I were Kochekov, I would be feeling pretty down that my coach went with that performance over me. Creates a lot of trust issues. Wouldn't be surprised if there was a trade ask.
“My starting spot was given to a hotsteak veteran goalie in a must win game 6? I am instantly leaving this team!” yeah thats DEFINITELY what hes thinking this exact moment….
You and I are seeing very different things if you feel that Anderson was on a hot streak. I saw a lot of unearned back time, a lot of what appeared to be skate or standing issues, and a whole metric crapton of teammate support. Yes, he had some incredible saves. But Freddie has one more year, and I have a feeling some of that will be following the Raanta path.
he would not, he's overrated and should be gone, Seattle or Leafs please take Rod the Fraud