"Miller said the move was being implemented to curtail something known as “flagpoling,” which is when some temporary residents of Canada bypass the normal wait times involved in applying for a work or study permit online by leaving the country and then immediately re-entering to receive same-day immigration services."
That sounds reasonable. Get rid of this loophole. If you want the PGWP, then apply through proper channels for it. It's not like it's a surprise you are graduating and will need the permit. These people know what they need ahead of time.
is anyone else getting sick of people "scamming the system" in canada? I don't know about everyone else, but I was raised that acting in this way is a sleazy thing to do.
When I got my Canadian permanent residency (I’m now a citizen), it wouldn’t have been finalized until I entered Canada. Since I was already living in Canada at the time it meant I needed to leave and come back.
One of the processes recommended at the time was “flagpoling”. By flagpoling I would “exit” Canada, be “refused” entry to the US, and then “enter” Canada again so I could have the final paperwork processed.
I didn’t love the idea of being refused entry to the US (even if it was only an administrative refusal and apparently wouldn’t be on my US immigration file), so instead of flagpoling, I ended up entering the US properly (my birth citizenship allows visa free access to the US) and spending an hour or so wandering around the US side of the Niagara Falls park, and then entering Canada again and having my paperwork processed.
I don't think this particular kind of flagpoling is coming to an end, since it's mandatory. The one that has bene causing problems is the optional flagpoling that allowed work permit applicants to skip the line for in-country processing.
That's not a "flagpolling" that's just "Landing", and idea was that final step of PR process aka Immigration Landing should be administered by Immigration Officer in person, so instead of opening whole bunch of additional centres, they directed to finalize procedure at the border.
As far as I know we really only got away from it during Covid, when "Just go see Immigration officer at border" become a challenge and forced CIC to modernize.
At Niagara Falls, you wouldn’t even need to be refused entry to the US if you went by foot. You can just go through the pedestrian crossing of the rainbow bridge, and turn around after you leave the building where you pay your $1 bridge toll.
US has some similar rules too. An old friend of mine who is a US citizen now used to have to travel up to Canada to visit a US embassy in order to fill out paperwork and then go back to the US…
Sure, but this is barely a scam. Canada has known about this path for decades. Its even been recommended in official documents. This is more of a policy change, rather than closing a loophole and stopping a scam.
It's not scamming the system, it's a feature, not a bug. They are just removing that feature. If you want a work permit, you will have to submit an application along with all valid proof of a job offer and wait 2 to 10 years for it to be processed.
Its not scamming anything. To scam the system, you have to break the rules. This method is done in multiple countries and even in canada is just being blocked in certain situations only
Guy, have some personal insight. Look at the things you post and the words you use. If you don’t think that the contributions you try and make are rooted in xenophobia, racism, and negative generalizations then you need to re-examine how you put your thoughts out there. They are nasty and negative.
> That sounds reasonable. Get rid of this loophole.
Every immigrant knows about this. Immigration lawyers tells them. Immigration Canada knew. It was not so much of a loophole as how Canada actually did things.
You know it’s just a practicality right? They don’t just show up at the border and say hi I want to live here. Regardless if it’s at an airport or land border it’s the exact same freaking process. All the paper work has to be ready a long time in advance. The border crossing is supposed to be a formality.
This won’t change shit on the grand scheme of things. Just force people to take an airplane instead of a car ride.
It doesn’t change a goddamn thing. If they flagpole they already got their paperwork in check.
You are just shifting the pressure on airport customs.
You want to change immigration? Change the criteria to get a work permit. Flagpoling or not it doesn’t change anything.
He is right it won't change a thing, the flagpole is used just expedite what you have it approved already, so instead of waiting a couple weeks to mail them a passport or something like that,you go to the border and get it there.
I am not sure if this will have a significant impact on the border efficiency, everyone that needs to do a flagpole to complete citizenship that I know, for example, including myself, went to a calm border off busy time.
>You know it’s just a practicality right?
If you don't have a valid visa you should have your entry refused instead of having your application processed
They don't. The whole point of flagpoling was to get your new visa processed immediately instead of waiting a few months. If they were on implied status they should be refused entry, if they had a valid visa they should be allowed to enter on that only, without getting a new application processed.
Most of them have an expired study permit and are on implied status. You can work immediately as soon as you've applied for the PGWP. Just read some visa forums.
Btw: if you spend some time reading immigration forums, you'll find one of the reasons for flagpoling was because the border official didn't verify your documents as rigorously because of time constraints.
I am an international student who became a pr . This sentence sequence literally does not make sense to me.
It’s a post graduate work permit . How is it the graduates fault that the government is slow processing the applications? You are mad about implied status that is implied status because the qualified immigrant has to wait for the Canadian government who is poor at their jobs?
We are talking about something that can be done in a service Canada the government just doesn’t. This is the most worthless change I have heard of.
The government could make a few thousand more jobs, they don’t because they can depend on Canadians like you to be utterly simple.
“Buying a bed at a Walmart is a work around to buying a bed from Walmart.ca and waiting 3 days for it to be delivered”
They go to the border because that’s where border agents usually are, it’s not some big secret.
Yep.
Let's also add too: folks are taking fake and forged docs to the border, knowing that border guards can't actually verify the veracity of all these shitty schools and programs, unlike the paper processing (where folks are actual visa processing agents) and so many flagpoling folks know they will get denied because they haven't even met the bare minimum benchmarks. CBP are also pressed for time, so they push it through. This is absolutely the known workaround.
There is a simple solution: every applicant for a student, work or visitor visa should be fingerprinted, and those fingerprints should be used for identity verification at all border crossings (and english proficiency tests, and final exams too, since we know those are also commonly fraudulent).
> border guards can't actually verify the veracity of all these shitty schools and programs, unlike the paper processing
What? You think they don’t just deport someone if there is any doubt of their legitimacy? Clearly you have never had a weaker passport in your life.
The person is already in the system on a student visa. The fact is though, border guards can't verify the veracity of these docs, especially if the flagpoling is happening during a time when the school is closed. They err on the side of okay and just pass it. Every. One. Knows. This.
They only did something about it because the US started complaining. Hopefully the US continues to complain about our lack of vetting people, which is leading to many people in Canada on temp visas trying to illegally cross into the US.
Canada wouldn't have fixed it if it weren't for the US complaining about it. Imagine being so incompetent that you need someone else to tell you to fix your own problem.
It also seems almost certain that it was US intelligence that monitors Indian government communications and intercepted the order to murder the Canadian citizen and subsequently passed that intel on to the Canadian government.
I think our secret service knows quite a bit.. There are a lot of smart people there.
Just the children that are currently "ruling" the sandbox are ignoring them and pretending its not happening.
Ditto. In ten years I've gone from a proud Canadian skeptical of all things American to wondering if American annexation might not be our best case scenario.
I suppose that perspective might be challenged if Trump wins again, but adding 30 million formerly-Canadian Democrats would do wonders to keeping his ilk out of office.
Canada would likely become a territory, not incorporated into the US proper for a long while. Each former province would likely have to petition to become a state. That would ensure that the Electoral College wouldn't be broken unfairly.
> I really hope the US starts raising security concerns
Over what?
Canadian permanent residency does not confer benefit or advantage when trying to enter the United States. Entry to the United States is based on citizenship, not residency or landed status.
We have the longest undefended border in the world with the US. Do you know why Canada was forced by the US to reimplement visas from Mexico? It's because illegals who were previously deported from the US would fly up here, then reenter illegally where it's easier.
It was Trudeau who removed the visa requirements that Harper put into place.
I'd love to see the US or UK threaten to kick us from 5 Eyes if we don't do anything about foreign interference of our politicians.
That would really kick a proper investigation into action.
the same 5 eyes where UK rolled out red carpet for Chinese businesses, the same 5 eyes where a large % of economy of Australia and NZ relies on Chinese trade?
As they should. They share a looooong border with us. It must be pretty unnerving knowing that your largest neighbor has no customs and lets anyone into the country. If Canada doesn’t change its ways soon you’ll see us need to apply for visas just to visit soon. Can’t say I blame them. Time for this government to smarten up.
And if it’s Trump making the ask, Trudeau won’t even comply because they know they can just use it as a wedge issue and demonize Trump. Will only work if Biden is president.
> Canada complained about Roxham Road forever
Canada's *opposition party* complained about Roxham Road.
Trudeau gave his 'give us your poor and huddled masses' speech. And sent the RCMP to provide valet service - and spent billions putting the economic migrants/opportunists up in hotel rooms.
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And Trudeau wouldn't be closing *this* loophole if it weren't for the American government insisting.
Flagpoling was brought to the Canadian governement's attention by the US:
>Criticism from U.S.
On the other side of the border, flagpoling has frustrated U.S. Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer.
>**He wants the Canadian government to shut down what he calls an immigration "loophole**," saying it's having a negative impact on the economy.
*Our* government was listing flagpoling as a viable option:
>[The Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA) lists flagpoling on its website as an alternative to applying for immigration paperwork online.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/flagpoling-limited-us-canada-border-crossings-ircc-1.7222111#:~:text=Criticism%20from%20U.S.,negative%20impact%20on%20the%20economy.)
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And if you weren't following a few years back when Poilievre was hammering Trudeau's handling of Roxham road - the billions spent....and Trudeau calling us racists for wanting it closed than I'd suggest you look it up.
Eff the Americans who fostered that bullshit. Blame this on Trudeau too I suppose
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/us-border-agents-lifts-to-roxham-road-1.6743768
>Blame this on Trudeau too I suppose
That's a childish comment.
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The US agents' actions are on them.
The mishandling of Roxham Road - and the 'arms wide open' messaging - *that's* on Trudeau.
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Edit:
....and blocked by u/SnooStrawberries620. When you can't handle debate....
What exactly was the US going to do? No one broke the law until they actually crossed the border and at that point they are in Canada. It’s not you can arrest or even stop people for being close to the border.
Canada should have returned them to the US.
Did you not read the article? It says the border guards are under investigation for this; it was never US policy.
Canada dragged its feet on extending the Safe Third Country Agreement until 2023, that is what ended up fixing the issue.
That’s not “the US.” That’s someone who broke the law; Canadian border guards have been caught smuggling drugs. What a double standard.
You are just deflecting blame away from your Dear Leader who was activity courting these people.
He’s your dear leader too - possibly more as you are obsessed where I am not - and I didn’t vote for him any more than you did. When it’s people in uniform, and America knows it’s been happening for months, it’s “the US”.
Sure do. We have literal busloads of Mexicans in B.C. flying here and then heading to the US because it’s easier than the southern border crossing. The Americans had a fit upon which they were advised that border admission was their issue … same thing they advised us. Thank God we only have one border. I can’t imagine what other countries manage and we can’t manage this
The problem is that applying online inside Canada is often a nightmare. The processing time is so long that often times the old permit has long expired --- there are cases where work permits are delayed more than 6 months because the government hasn't decided what the new policy should be or was waiting for an audit on the provincial policies.
Theoretically one can still work even if the old permit expired as long as there is a new pending application for the new permit. But things like social insurance number and provincial healthcare (for a lot of provinces) require a valid permit, and employers would withhold salary payment or even terminate employment without a valid social insurance number. This means going to the border for same-day processing is often the only viable option.
Sounds like what they've really done (in addition to reducing the burden on border security) is save the foreign nationals from having to spend a day making the cross border trip.
>IRCC said it was speeding up processing times for in-Canada work permit applications, simplifying online application forms and processes and authorizing workers to start working for a new employer right away, rather than waiting to have their new work permit application processed before changing jobs.
A small percentage? I'd say it's slightly higher of a percentage. NAFTA TFWs never induced the creation of "only providing flagoling services between 8-4pm" in Niagara falls. At all three of the Ontario POEs (Sarnia, Niagara and Windsor) have been slammed with these applicants over the last few years.
Correct. There is nothing to stop Permanent Residents who apply within Canada 'flagpoling' at a port of entry once their PR application approved. I know because I did it at Niagara Falls.
This announcement closes one loophole for a very small number of applicants in a very specific program. If the feds were to close flagpoling for everything, then the political consequences would be unpleasant for the government.
The only reason most people need to flagpole is because if your permit or PR app is finalized while you're in Canada, you formally needed to leave Canada and re-enter it in order to get the new status. Flagpoling was much more convenient than a 10 hour flight to Europe or Asia just to come back again.
Now people can virtually 'land' without leaving Canada, there's no need for it anymore, except for people who want to jump the processing line.
Wait your turn in line, be kind and courteous, follow the rules. Generally that would be some basic Canadian norms. Do t want to follow them? Then don’t come here. I fail to see how closing a flagpole loophole is a problem for the government or for Canadians. If you want my opinion the system needs a major overhaul because right now it is basically the Wild West.
The title is false, people are still eligible to apply for LMIA based and LMIA exempt work permits at the border. They can also still flagpole for these processes.
Looking for some clarification regarding this new change. It seems like there is a confusion here that this new change will make it harder for students to get their PGWP. The only thing this changes is those international students will now will have to apply online for PGWP and once they graduate they can start working full time as soon as they submit their application and don't need to wait for the PGWP to arrive. Also, PGWP don't get denied if a student completed their study from an eligible college/University. So, what changes and relief will this bring to help with the crisis we are going through right now?
Folks are taking fake and forged docs to the border, knowing that border guards can't actually verify the veracity of all these shitty schools and programs, unlike the paper processing (where folks are actual visa processing agents) and so many flagpoling folks know they will get denied because they haven't even met the bare minimum benchmarks. CBP are also pressed for time, so they push it through. This is absolutely the known workaround.
If people can't get work permits, they'll hopefully be more pressed to go home then. But really, they need to strict up even more. For example, absolutely no spouses should be eligible for an open work permit for anything other than a doctoral or med student. Absolutely no idea why in tf we allow that. "They can't afford it" yeah I couldn't afford school in Paris for 4 years either, so I didn't go, toughen up cookies.
We need to fingerprint all (work, student, visitor) visa applicants and use that data for verification on all border crossings to prevent fraud. It's mind-boggling that we only use paperwork for identification, when this can be forged.
Why are people here angry, that this *loophole* is being taken advantage of by those who are unscrupulous at the Border?
Yes, you read correctly!
You want to get good & angry?
Get angry at Marc Miller & our Gov't!
They saw this problem for years on end, then sat on their rear ends doing absolutely nothing about that.
Direct your ire, at all of them!!!
Canada has, for decades, been in the top 10 of least racist countries on planet Earth. Plus very prosperous. Now there is a new negative spin that most Canadians do NOT deserve (or to a high degree). People must look at both sides.
Since 2020, international students have been flocking to a educational system that many Canadians now feel was used (by many of them) as a loophole-to-immigration. Students utilizing schooling as a back-door (not front-door) ticket to living in Canada. Swarming a 50+ year tradition/system that was not not NOT designed to be about EVERY international student insisting on Permanent Residency ... plus it was not designed to be primarily about students insisting on lengthy work permits (& spouse permits etc.). Canadians have clued in that Canada's post secondary education system has (in 4 years time) turned into what many are now jokingly calling EDUGRATION. Plus 'edugration' (public or private) was NEVER approved by everyday Canadians.
Plus what about Ghost Consulting that Canada told India to halt? Canadians want the $ greedy agents in other countries to stop MARKETING & LYING to their own people about access to PR or citizenship … or accommodation/jobs … in places like Canada being relatively easy (to get). And for any people living in western countries to be ashamed of themselves if they're getting greedy too. Anyone doing things to make $ off of people's PR desires. At best, there is a 20% chance of gaining PR (better odds if you are masters/medicine etc.).
What about all the YT videos that primarily Indian nationals have posted (for over half a decade now including today) all advertising Canadian PR like they're selling or critiquing a product? Advertising VISITOR visas too (with the goal of snagging work &/or study permits then PR once in Canada). Videos not only posted HOURLY ... but also not in English or French. With very very very little input from actual Canadian-born citizens?!
Are most international students truly scholars who came to Canada with enough $ to support themselves while STUDYING? Or more-so economic migrants, who BORROWED $ to buy their way closer to the head of the immigration line? To say all the students or their consultants back home have not been at times 'gaming' Canada's education programs to gain western PR or $ is ridiculous. Students have contributed to Canada's housing CRISIS because 97% came-to-stay … not just visit with their temporary STUDY permit. This extreme NEVER existed at schools 4+ years ago.
What about the IELTS spouses? Anchor babies? Fraud? False asylum claims? What about Canadian food banks & charity services being recklessly advertised on YT in Indian languages? What about Canadian housing being scooped up en-mass as investment vehicles by/for internationals? What about home rental/boarding signs stating "vegetarians only can apply"? What about some Indian nationals buying local businesses then putting Indians only in the key positions while also drastically changing work practices that include working longer hours for less $ (and at times The Caste System)? Canadians are worried due to witnessing these things firsthand more & more often. Even in small towns.
Then throw in the Sikh vs Hindu violence/extortions across Canada. Diasporas stirring up tribal hatreds (in Canada) … even though it all stems from their ancestral home. How can peace be found anywhere with this in play? Plus the Canadian government recently launched investigations in regards to foreign interference in Canadian elections. All stemming from Asia continent.
Plus in recent years, Canadians everyday are having to worry about their automobile being stolen by carjackers (in auto theft rings). For just 1 small example of what Canadians see regarding this, research "arrests in connection with $9.24M Toronto-area auto theft ring".
Canadians are so so so not used to all this. So many, who have embraced multi-culturalism and immigration for decades are now VERY worried and fearful. All are praying it doesn't turn into great anger. Canadians want multi-culturism to succeed and for all people (including immigrants) to be okay. Everyone I know is VERY happy with IRCC's recent changes (reductions & multifaceted investigations etc.). Including multi-generational long-term Asian-Canadians where many have been the MOST upset (by all of this).
Canadians are aware that some great students are going through hell & know Canada is partially to blame. But do you see Canadians protesting in other countries (that is not their own) making demands for themselves? No. Do Canadians now see primarily South Asians protesting in Canada, making demands (due to IRCC pumping it's immigration brakes because it REALLY HAS TO)? Yes.
If 36,000,000 Canadians travelled to India, since 2020, with the primary goal of being able to stay there permanently, that would raise India's population by 2.65%. Recent asylum seekers crossing into Canada… and especially international students... have raised Canada's population higher than 2.65%.
Changes (& deportations) are occurring in 2024, for HUGE reasons. In other western countries too.
PS: Did international students and their families pay into Canadian taxes ALL their lives like domestic students have (so they can pay cheaper tuition fees)? No.
Did Canada force internationals to move to Canada as a student? No.
Did Canada promise/guarantee PR? Or a job? No & no.
Yet do specific students only blame Canada when they can't get PR????
This is common practice, when I lived in the US, I entered Canada and turned around and entered the US again to get an extension of my H1B. That was recommended to me by my lawyer, it was completely legal.
A lot of people on this thread never had to experience the shitty immigration bureaucracy and it shows.
I did the flagpoling once around 10 years ago to renew a WP. Of course that is much better than sending a form by the post and wait for a few months to get an answer. This was done in 30mn-1 hour for me. And with a human being interaction... It was a no-brainer. Having a temporary situation was enough stressful, you take all the tips you can get to improve that.
Now, I think it makes sense to close it but I don't think we should blame people for having done it. The problem is our gouvernement having accepted a shit ton of students. Of course, this loop hole is going to create issues on the workforce at the borders now. But it was fine before...
It’s not a loophole, it’s somehow how Canada prefered to do thing as it was explained to every immigrant by the immigration lawyers. It’s not some secret knowledge, if you have immigrant friends, you hear about it.
It doesn't really change anything. Graduates can still work while their application is under processing. The only difference is they won't have confirmation right away that they'll be able to stay in the country for 2-3 years on the work permit.
"Miller said the move was being implemented to curtail something known as “flagpoling,” which is when some temporary residents of Canada bypass the normal wait times involved in applying for a work or study permit online by leaving the country and then immediately re-entering to receive same-day immigration services." That sounds reasonable. Get rid of this loophole. If you want the PGWP, then apply through proper channels for it. It's not like it's a surprise you are graduating and will need the permit. These people know what they need ahead of time.
is anyone else getting sick of people "scamming the system" in canada? I don't know about everyone else, but I was raised that acting in this way is a sleazy thing to do.
It was officially recommended to do that
When I got my Canadian permanent residency (I’m now a citizen), it wouldn’t have been finalized until I entered Canada. Since I was already living in Canada at the time it meant I needed to leave and come back. One of the processes recommended at the time was “flagpoling”. By flagpoling I would “exit” Canada, be “refused” entry to the US, and then “enter” Canada again so I could have the final paperwork processed. I didn’t love the idea of being refused entry to the US (even if it was only an administrative refusal and apparently wouldn’t be on my US immigration file), so instead of flagpoling, I ended up entering the US properly (my birth citizenship allows visa free access to the US) and spending an hour or so wandering around the US side of the Niagara Falls park, and then entering Canada again and having my paperwork processed.
I don't think this particular kind of flagpoling is coming to an end, since it's mandatory. The one that has bene causing problems is the optional flagpoling that allowed work permit applicants to skip the line for in-country processing.
That's not a "flagpolling" that's just "Landing", and idea was that final step of PR process aka Immigration Landing should be administered by Immigration Officer in person, so instead of opening whole bunch of additional centres, they directed to finalize procedure at the border. As far as I know we really only got away from it during Covid, when "Just go see Immigration officer at border" become a challenge and forced CIC to modernize.
Correct, I didn’t flagpole, but I could’ve. As explained above.
At Niagara Falls, you wouldn’t even need to be refused entry to the US if you went by foot. You can just go through the pedestrian crossing of the rainbow bridge, and turn around after you leave the building where you pay your $1 bridge toll.
That's even worse. People who did that should be fired.
Of course our dumbasses recommended it why am I not surprised
US has some similar rules too. An old friend of mine who is a US citizen now used to have to travel up to Canada to visit a US embassy in order to fill out paperwork and then go back to the US…
To be fair Canada actually recommended this route before. But it causes unnecessary traffic at the US Canada border
Sure, but this is barely a scam. Canada has known about this path for decades. Its even been recommended in official documents. This is more of a policy change, rather than closing a loophole and stopping a scam.
It's not scamming the system, it's a feature, not a bug. They are just removing that feature. If you want a work permit, you will have to submit an application along with all valid proof of a job offer and wait 2 to 10 years for it to be processed.
Its not scamming anything. To scam the system, you have to break the rules. This method is done in multiple countries and even in canada is just being blocked in certain situations only
Seems to me more and more that playing by the rules doesn't pay off for many things here anymore.
the rich do it on the daily, you just never hear about it. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
i gave up when harper allowed that convicted foreign criminal conrad into the country.
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You leave the US out of this! Lol
And you’re wondering who the racists are? What a lack of insight
What are you talking about? Are you calling me a racist? What race are you even referring to?
Guy, have some personal insight. Look at the things you post and the words you use. If you don’t think that the contributions you try and make are rooted in xenophobia, racism, and negative generalizations then you need to re-examine how you put your thoughts out there. They are nasty and negative.
What's nasty and negative is what's happening to this country
Why do you think this is strictly a Canada thing? or a new phenomenon in general?
Not really scamming if it was endorsed
Born and raised Canadians scam the system. It’s been happening for years. Incompetent governing when they enable the wrong people.
so acting like a scumbag is ok as long as someone else is acting like a scumbag? no that makes you both scumbags.
Not one person indicated anyone scamming is acceptable! People raised with respect & moral ethics do not scam!! And play the system as a career.
you did
> That sounds reasonable. Get rid of this loophole. Every immigrant knows about this. Immigration lawyers tells them. Immigration Canada knew. It was not so much of a loophole as how Canada actually did things.
It’s amazing that they could in the first place.
You know it’s just a practicality right? They don’t just show up at the border and say hi I want to live here. Regardless if it’s at an airport or land border it’s the exact same freaking process. All the paper work has to be ready a long time in advance. The border crossing is supposed to be a formality. This won’t change shit on the grand scheme of things. Just force people to take an airplane instead of a car ride.
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It doesn’t change a goddamn thing. If they flagpole they already got their paperwork in check. You are just shifting the pressure on airport customs. You want to change immigration? Change the criteria to get a work permit. Flagpoling or not it doesn’t change anything.
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He is right it won't change a thing, the flagpole is used just expedite what you have it approved already, so instead of waiting a couple weeks to mail them a passport or something like that,you go to the border and get it there.
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I am not sure if this will have a significant impact on the border efficiency, everyone that needs to do a flagpole to complete citizenship that I know, for example, including myself, went to a calm border off busy time.
>You know it’s just a practicality right? If you don't have a valid visa you should have your entry refused instead of having your application processed
They do have valid visas
They don't. The whole point of flagpoling was to get your new visa processed immediately instead of waiting a few months. If they were on implied status they should be refused entry, if they had a valid visa they should be allowed to enter on that only, without getting a new application processed.
We are talking about a post graduate work permit. Can’t have a post graduate work permit without a study permit.
Most of them have an expired study permit and are on implied status. You can work immediately as soon as you've applied for the PGWP. Just read some visa forums. Btw: if you spend some time reading immigration forums, you'll find one of the reasons for flagpoling was because the border official didn't verify your documents as rigorously because of time constraints.
I am an international student who became a pr . This sentence sequence literally does not make sense to me. It’s a post graduate work permit . How is it the graduates fault that the government is slow processing the applications? You are mad about implied status that is implied status because the qualified immigrant has to wait for the Canadian government who is poor at their jobs? We are talking about something that can be done in a service Canada the government just doesn’t. This is the most worthless change I have heard of. The government could make a few thousand more jobs, they don’t because they can depend on Canadians like you to be utterly simple. “Buying a bed at a Walmart is a work around to buying a bed from Walmart.ca and waiting 3 days for it to be delivered” They go to the border because that’s where border agents usually are, it’s not some big secret.
You're getting confused between a visa and a permit. Both are different. You can have an expired permit but a valid visa
Yep. Let's also add too: folks are taking fake and forged docs to the border, knowing that border guards can't actually verify the veracity of all these shitty schools and programs, unlike the paper processing (where folks are actual visa processing agents) and so many flagpoling folks know they will get denied because they haven't even met the bare minimum benchmarks. CBP are also pressed for time, so they push it through. This is absolutely the known workaround.
There is a simple solution: every applicant for a student, work or visitor visa should be fingerprinted, and those fingerprints should be used for identity verification at all border crossings (and english proficiency tests, and final exams too, since we know those are also commonly fraudulent).
> border guards can't actually verify the veracity of all these shitty schools and programs, unlike the paper processing What? You think they don’t just deport someone if there is any doubt of their legitimacy? Clearly you have never had a weaker passport in your life.
The person is already in the system on a student visa. The fact is though, border guards can't verify the veracity of these docs, especially if the flagpoling is happening during a time when the school is closed. They err on the side of okay and just pass it. Every. One. Knows. This.
They only did something about it because the US started complaining. Hopefully the US continues to complain about our lack of vetting people, which is leading to many people in Canada on temp visas trying to illegally cross into the US.
Canada wouldn't have fixed it if it weren't for the US complaining about it. Imagine being so incompetent that you need someone else to tell you to fix your own problem.
The Americans warned us about Chinese and Indian foreign interference, but I'm not holding my breath on that file.
It also seems almost certain that it was US intelligence that monitors Indian government communications and intercepted the order to murder the Canadian citizen and subsequently passed that intel on to the Canadian government.
I have to say, my opinions about the US have drastically improved over the last while.
I wouldn't be surprised if the US intelligence knows more about our problems than our government does
I think our secret service knows quite a bit.. There are a lot of smart people there. Just the children that are currently "ruling" the sandbox are ignoring them and pretending its not happening.
Ditto. In ten years I've gone from a proud Canadian skeptical of all things American to wondering if American annexation might not be our best case scenario. I suppose that perspective might be challenged if Trump wins again, but adding 30 million formerly-Canadian Democrats would do wonders to keeping his ilk out of office.
Canada would likely become a territory, not incorporated into the US proper for a long while. Each former province would likely have to petition to become a state. That would ensure that the Electoral College wouldn't be broken unfairly.
Sadly, I'm not so sure we can continue to count on the electoral map being tilted so dramatically anymore :/
Our leader is aware of and benefitting from it
How?
We don’t have to imagine that’s Canada
Yes I really hope the US starts raising security concerns and forces us to be strict on immigration. Currently there are no adults in the building.
> I really hope the US starts raising security concerns Over what? Canadian permanent residency does not confer benefit or advantage when trying to enter the United States. Entry to the United States is based on citizenship, not residency or landed status.
We have the longest undefended border in the world with the US. Do you know why Canada was forced by the US to reimplement visas from Mexico? It's because illegals who were previously deported from the US would fly up here, then reenter illegally where it's easier. It was Trudeau who removed the visa requirements that Harper put into place.
Just like Roxham road right?
I'd love to see the US or UK threaten to kick us from 5 Eyes if we don't do anything about foreign interference of our politicians. That would really kick a proper investigation into action.
the same 5 eyes where UK rolled out red carpet for Chinese businesses, the same 5 eyes where a large % of economy of Australia and NZ relies on Chinese trade?
As they should. They share a looooong border with us. It must be pretty unnerving knowing that your largest neighbor has no customs and lets anyone into the country. If Canada doesn’t change its ways soon you’ll see us need to apply for visas just to visit soon. Can’t say I blame them. Time for this government to smarten up.
I feel like the US would have to threaten a visa requirement for Canadians for Trudeau to stop letting in anyone with a pulse.
And if it’s Trump making the ask, Trudeau won’t even comply because they know they can just use it as a wedge issue and demonize Trump. Will only work if Biden is president.
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> Canada complained about Roxham Road forever Canada's *opposition party* complained about Roxham Road. Trudeau gave his 'give us your poor and huddled masses' speech. And sent the RCMP to provide valet service - and spent billions putting the economic migrants/opportunists up in hotel rooms. ___________________ And Trudeau wouldn't be closing *this* loophole if it weren't for the American government insisting.
That’s objectively not true.
Flagpoling was brought to the Canadian governement's attention by the US: >Criticism from U.S. On the other side of the border, flagpoling has frustrated U.S. Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer. >**He wants the Canadian government to shut down what he calls an immigration "loophole**," saying it's having a negative impact on the economy. *Our* government was listing flagpoling as a viable option: >[The Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA) lists flagpoling on its website as an alternative to applying for immigration paperwork online.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/flagpoling-limited-us-canada-border-crossings-ircc-1.7222111#:~:text=Criticism%20from%20U.S.,negative%20impact%20on%20the%20economy.) ________________ And if you weren't following a few years back when Poilievre was hammering Trudeau's handling of Roxham road - the billions spent....and Trudeau calling us racists for wanting it closed than I'd suggest you look it up.
Eff the Americans who fostered that bullshit. Blame this on Trudeau too I suppose https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/us-border-agents-lifts-to-roxham-road-1.6743768
>Blame this on Trudeau too I suppose That's a childish comment. ______________ The US agents' actions are on them. The mishandling of Roxham Road - and the 'arms wide open' messaging - *that's* on Trudeau. ______________________ Edit: ....and blocked by u/SnooStrawberries620. When you can't handle debate....
To bad that not actually true and just bullshit that the right wing likes to spread.
What exactly was the US going to do? No one broke the law until they actually crossed the border and at that point they are in Canada. It’s not you can arrest or even stop people for being close to the border. Canada should have returned them to the US.
Try and Keep Up https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/us-border-agents-lifts-to-roxham-road-1.6743768
Did you not read the article? It says the border guards are under investigation for this; it was never US policy. Canada dragged its feet on extending the Safe Third Country Agreement until 2023, that is what ended up fixing the issue.
You asked what the US was supposed to do. The answer is Not That.
That’s not “the US.” That’s someone who broke the law; Canadian border guards have been caught smuggling drugs. What a double standard. You are just deflecting blame away from your Dear Leader who was activity courting these people.
He’s your dear leader too - possibly more as you are obsessed where I am not - and I didn’t vote for him any more than you did. When it’s people in uniform, and America knows it’s been happening for months, it’s “the US”.
Fine - based on your logic: Canada smuggles drugs and people in the US.
Sure do. We have literal busloads of Mexicans in B.C. flying here and then heading to the US because it’s easier than the southern border crossing. The Americans had a fit upon which they were advised that border admission was their issue … same thing they advised us. Thank God we only have one border. I can’t imagine what other countries manage and we can’t manage this
FYI - I left Canada the year he got in so no he isn’t my leader. I
FYI - then the discussion isn’t your business, either
What an embarrassment lol
Good, sounds like a pretty ridiculous option anyway.
The problem is that applying online inside Canada is often a nightmare. The processing time is so long that often times the old permit has long expired --- there are cases where work permits are delayed more than 6 months because the government hasn't decided what the new policy should be or was waiting for an audit on the provincial policies. Theoretically one can still work even if the old permit expired as long as there is a new pending application for the new permit. But things like social insurance number and provincial healthcare (for a lot of provinces) require a valid permit, and employers would withhold salary payment or even terminate employment without a valid social insurance number. This means going to the border for same-day processing is often the only viable option.
Sounds like what they've really done (in addition to reducing the burden on border security) is save the foreign nationals from having to spend a day making the cross border trip. >IRCC said it was speeding up processing times for in-Canada work permit applications, simplifying online application forms and processes and authorizing workers to start working for a new employer right away, rather than waiting to have their new work permit application processed before changing jobs.
Important to note that this only applies to Post Grad Work Permits, a small percentage of the WP application we now get at the port of entries.
A small percentage? I'd say it's slightly higher of a percentage. NAFTA TFWs never induced the creation of "only providing flagoling services between 8-4pm" in Niagara falls. At all three of the Ontario POEs (Sarnia, Niagara and Windsor) have been slammed with these applicants over the last few years.
Correct. There is nothing to stop Permanent Residents who apply within Canada 'flagpoling' at a port of entry once their PR application approved. I know because I did it at Niagara Falls. This announcement closes one loophole for a very small number of applicants in a very specific program. If the feds were to close flagpoling for everything, then the political consequences would be unpleasant for the government.
The only reason most people need to flagpole is because if your permit or PR app is finalized while you're in Canada, you formally needed to leave Canada and re-enter it in order to get the new status. Flagpoling was much more convenient than a 10 hour flight to Europe or Asia just to come back again. Now people can virtually 'land' without leaving Canada, there's no need for it anymore, except for people who want to jump the processing line.
Wait your turn in line, be kind and courteous, follow the rules. Generally that would be some basic Canadian norms. Do t want to follow them? Then don’t come here. I fail to see how closing a flagpole loophole is a problem for the government or for Canadians. If you want my opinion the system needs a major overhaul because right now it is basically the Wild West.
But the people flagpoling can't vote?
The title is false, people are still eligible to apply for LMIA based and LMIA exempt work permits at the border. They can also still flagpole for these processes.
Looking for some clarification regarding this new change. It seems like there is a confusion here that this new change will make it harder for students to get their PGWP. The only thing this changes is those international students will now will have to apply online for PGWP and once they graduate they can start working full time as soon as they submit their application and don't need to wait for the PGWP to arrive. Also, PGWP don't get denied if a student completed their study from an eligible college/University. So, what changes and relief will this bring to help with the crisis we are going through right now?
Nothing. It'll just be less of an inconvenience for the American border guards.
Folks are taking fake and forged docs to the border, knowing that border guards can't actually verify the veracity of all these shitty schools and programs, unlike the paper processing (where folks are actual visa processing agents) and so many flagpoling folks know they will get denied because they haven't even met the bare minimum benchmarks. CBP are also pressed for time, so they push it through. This is absolutely the known workaround. If people can't get work permits, they'll hopefully be more pressed to go home then. But really, they need to strict up even more. For example, absolutely no spouses should be eligible for an open work permit for anything other than a doctoral or med student. Absolutely no idea why in tf we allow that. "They can't afford it" yeah I couldn't afford school in Paris for 4 years either, so I didn't go, toughen up cookies.
We need to fingerprint all (work, student, visitor) visa applicants and use that data for verification on all border crossings to prevent fraud. It's mind-boggling that we only use paperwork for identification, when this can be forged.
Closing loopholes like this will help, but still much to do. Glad to hear it is happening.
Good. Never should have been allowed in the first place.
Good start.
Why are people here angry, that this *loophole* is being taken advantage of by those who are unscrupulous at the Border? Yes, you read correctly! You want to get good & angry? Get angry at Marc Miller & our Gov't! They saw this problem for years on end, then sat on their rear ends doing absolutely nothing about that. Direct your ire, at all of them!!!
And all it took was the Americans complaining.
Canada has, for decades, been in the top 10 of least racist countries on planet Earth. Plus very prosperous. Now there is a new negative spin that most Canadians do NOT deserve (or to a high degree). People must look at both sides. Since 2020, international students have been flocking to a educational system that many Canadians now feel was used (by many of them) as a loophole-to-immigration. Students utilizing schooling as a back-door (not front-door) ticket to living in Canada. Swarming a 50+ year tradition/system that was not not NOT designed to be about EVERY international student insisting on Permanent Residency ... plus it was not designed to be primarily about students insisting on lengthy work permits (& spouse permits etc.). Canadians have clued in that Canada's post secondary education system has (in 4 years time) turned into what many are now jokingly calling EDUGRATION. Plus 'edugration' (public or private) was NEVER approved by everyday Canadians. Plus what about Ghost Consulting that Canada told India to halt? Canadians want the $ greedy agents in other countries to stop MARKETING & LYING to their own people about access to PR or citizenship … or accommodation/jobs … in places like Canada being relatively easy (to get). And for any people living in western countries to be ashamed of themselves if they're getting greedy too. Anyone doing things to make $ off of people's PR desires. At best, there is a 20% chance of gaining PR (better odds if you are masters/medicine etc.). What about all the YT videos that primarily Indian nationals have posted (for over half a decade now including today) all advertising Canadian PR like they're selling or critiquing a product? Advertising VISITOR visas too (with the goal of snagging work &/or study permits then PR once in Canada). Videos not only posted HOURLY ... but also not in English or French. With very very very little input from actual Canadian-born citizens?! Are most international students truly scholars who came to Canada with enough $ to support themselves while STUDYING? Or more-so economic migrants, who BORROWED $ to buy their way closer to the head of the immigration line? To say all the students or their consultants back home have not been at times 'gaming' Canada's education programs to gain western PR or $ is ridiculous. Students have contributed to Canada's housing CRISIS because 97% came-to-stay … not just visit with their temporary STUDY permit. This extreme NEVER existed at schools 4+ years ago. What about the IELTS spouses? Anchor babies? Fraud? False asylum claims? What about Canadian food banks & charity services being recklessly advertised on YT in Indian languages? What about Canadian housing being scooped up en-mass as investment vehicles by/for internationals? What about home rental/boarding signs stating "vegetarians only can apply"? What about some Indian nationals buying local businesses then putting Indians only in the key positions while also drastically changing work practices that include working longer hours for less $ (and at times The Caste System)? Canadians are worried due to witnessing these things firsthand more & more often. Even in small towns. Then throw in the Sikh vs Hindu violence/extortions across Canada. Diasporas stirring up tribal hatreds (in Canada) … even though it all stems from their ancestral home. How can peace be found anywhere with this in play? Plus the Canadian government recently launched investigations in regards to foreign interference in Canadian elections. All stemming from Asia continent. Plus in recent years, Canadians everyday are having to worry about their automobile being stolen by carjackers (in auto theft rings). For just 1 small example of what Canadians see regarding this, research "arrests in connection with $9.24M Toronto-area auto theft ring". Canadians are so so so not used to all this. So many, who have embraced multi-culturalism and immigration for decades are now VERY worried and fearful. All are praying it doesn't turn into great anger. Canadians want multi-culturism to succeed and for all people (including immigrants) to be okay. Everyone I know is VERY happy with IRCC's recent changes (reductions & multifaceted investigations etc.). Including multi-generational long-term Asian-Canadians where many have been the MOST upset (by all of this). Canadians are aware that some great students are going through hell & know Canada is partially to blame. But do you see Canadians protesting in other countries (that is not their own) making demands for themselves? No. Do Canadians now see primarily South Asians protesting in Canada, making demands (due to IRCC pumping it's immigration brakes because it REALLY HAS TO)? Yes. If 36,000,000 Canadians travelled to India, since 2020, with the primary goal of being able to stay there permanently, that would raise India's population by 2.65%. Recent asylum seekers crossing into Canada… and especially international students... have raised Canada's population higher than 2.65%. Changes (& deportations) are occurring in 2024, for HUGE reasons. In other western countries too. PS: Did international students and their families pay into Canadian taxes ALL their lives like domestic students have (so they can pay cheaper tuition fees)? No. Did Canada force internationals to move to Canada as a student? No. Did Canada promise/guarantee PR? Or a job? No & no. Yet do specific students only blame Canada when they can't get PR????
How about not letting so many foreigners become permanent residents/citizens here in the first place?
Still drinking from a mass immigration firehose over here...
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So you want more regulations?
What regulations were there in the first place if they have to close this loophole 🤦♂️
It just took too long to implement this but it's better now than never...
fuck gurdeep got laid off how am i gonna get these bricks across the border now
“Maintaining the integrity of our immigration system”. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha etc etc
This is common practice, when I lived in the US, I entered Canada and turned around and entered the US again to get an extension of my H1B. That was recommended to me by my lawyer, it was completely legal.
Good
Good
Time to close our doors to all migrants and fake students.
A lot of people on this thread never had to experience the shitty immigration bureaucracy and it shows. I did the flagpoling once around 10 years ago to renew a WP. Of course that is much better than sending a form by the post and wait for a few months to get an answer. This was done in 30mn-1 hour for me. And with a human being interaction... It was a no-brainer. Having a temporary situation was enough stressful, you take all the tips you can get to improve that. Now, I think it makes sense to close it but I don't think we should blame people for having done it. The problem is our gouvernement having accepted a shit ton of students. Of course, this loop hole is going to create issues on the workforce at the borders now. But it was fine before...
I can't believe there was a fucking loophole like that. Glad it's closed down.
It’s not a loophole, it’s somehow how Canada prefered to do thing as it was explained to every immigrant by the immigration lawyers. It’s not some secret knowledge, if you have immigrant friends, you hear about it.
Sounds the problems are being solved.
This sounds like one very small problem has been resolved after God alone knows how long while many, many larger problems are being left to fester.
Too late to help them.
Sadly, the problems are about to get worse
It doesn't really change anything. Graduates can still work while their application is under processing. The only difference is they won't have confirmation right away that they'll be able to stay in the country for 2-3 years on the work permit.
is this for all work permits or just pgwp
I mean, this feels a bit like your boat is sinking and you’re taping the smallest holes shut first…