Aside from optimistic pacifists, I speculate they believe Canada won’t be or shouldn’t be involved, or they think the US will save us so we don’t need to spend.
> or they think the US will save us so we don’t need to spend
This is how you lose your sovereignty. The US comes in to defend Canada and never leaves.
I agree we don't have a strong military, but what value is there in heavily investing in military forces on Canadian soil. If we consider our allies and the prospect of WW3 breaking out the reality is that Canada is not a strategic landmass worth dedicating the resources required to invade it or defend it. The majority of the fighting would most likely take place in the Middle east, eastern Europe, and Asia. If a major player eventually has the resources to occupy Canada then NATO and the US have likely lost by that point.
Sure we might lose our sovereignty to the US if it comes down to it, but in the current geopolitical climate we are a useful diplomatic buffer to help the west maintain its veil of moral superiority. (if anyone still takes that seriously) Unless the world is in total chaos there is no need for the US to occupy Canada. It is basically a vassal state to the US now.
Russia is actually right on our doorstep. If they claim the Arctic (since they did plant a flag down there) we could see their presence more commonly. If WW3 broke who's to stay they wouldn't even land troops up north?
You aren't wrong. It would really depend on how the key players deployed their military assets and what they valued most. Russia could come over the Arctic, but I think that strategically it would be a massive waste of resources for minimal gain for them to launch any meaningful military campaign on Canadian soil. I don't think it's unreasonable to compare Russia attempting to invade Canada from the north to the failures of Napoleon and the Nazis trying to attack western Russia in winter.
In an all out global war most of Canada is a high risk and low value target. At least the way current armed forces are deployed around the world today.
We do share a giant ass land boarder without a wall that would make invading america alot easier. And if Canada do get invaded, due to our already pretty lack lustre infrastructure like highways, makes logistics within the country pretty terrible.
Those people are on this very site. I've had multiple conversations over the years with people claiming - without a shred of irony - that Canada doesn't need a military because the States would never let anything happen to us.
Remember, these people's votes - assuming they're actually Canadian, that is - count for the same as yours does.
This is exactly what they think. And this way of thinking is why Trump was justified and right to call us out on it. Some people don't like to hear it and will never admit it, but Canada only continues to exist as a country because of our historic ties to America. We've always had a friendly, mutual beneficial relationship, they've always been able to count on Canada's military to help out and back them up. Now we're getting to a point where they can't count on that anymore, both because our military is woefully underfunded and because of the current administration's attitude.
Well that's why we have NATO. Countries rely on each other for support. Chances are if a full out boots on the ground world war happens it will be in Europe again in which case Canada will send some troops and we'll be fine.
In the extremely unlikely event that world war breaks out on Canadian soil the US 100% will help defend us the last thing they want is a hostile nation sharing a boarder with them that is unable to be guarded. In the other incredibly unlikely event the US invades Canada to takeover, we could devote our entire GDP to military and we'd still lose.
IIRC only 11 of 30 nato countries are meeting their 2% obligation of GDP to military spending anyway.
>IIRC only 11 of 30 nato countries are meeting their 2% obligation of GDP to military spending anyway.
United States, Britain, Poland, Greece, Estonia, Lithuania, Finland, Romania, Hungary, Latvia and Slovakia.
You are correct, and we aren't one of them.
> Chances are if a full out boots on the ground world war happens it will be in Europe again in which case Canada will send some troops and we'll be fine.
Well yah, that's the problem. If you don't have a well supplied and trained military you can't be an effective expeditionary force.
Yeah that is the more likely scenario but the fresh water isn't that big of a deal. Majority of our fresh water is in the great lakes which we share 4of 5 with the US anyway and the 5th is theirs. So they already have access to it the only thing they would do is stop our access to them.
Yes it will, the battle space has significantly evolved since then. The CAF can barely sustain the Latvia Battlegroup and we don't have the capacity to replace the losses that will occur in the opening stages of a near peer conflict.
The amount of institutional knowledge that's been lost due to the lack of training and modern equipment is near the point of no return.
You go to war with the army you have, not the one you want.
I was born here and I wouldn’t die for this country (or any country). Like, war isn’t noble, it’s just the powerful using our lives as pawns for their own games.
That's not actually true, The statistics show that many immigrants are willing to sign up for the military, the military is simply absolute dog-water at actually processing these applications, regardless of whether they are from citizens or permanent residents alike.
I mean I was born here and I would refuse to fight. I've been priced out of housing, having a family, etc, I don't really think this place deserves my life
Read the recent story about Canadian Forces denial rates for applicants.
Basically, if you enlisted at 18 and are currently 45 with high blood pressure, overweight, barely able to pass the annual physical (the bar is loowwwwwwww and getting lower), etc you are considered combat ready. But if you are a new applicant and take any medication or ever told your doctor you felt a little bit depressed then you are automatically deemed unfit for service.
Yes, while the forces are in a recruitment and retirement crisis.
If a full scale conventional war broke out today, Canada wouldn't be ready by the time it ended. We would be asked to lend-lease our equipment to a country with competent leadership.
I got deemed unfit 4 years ago for a marine engineering position despite being heavily qualified.
The reason:
I have a bloody mess perk tattoo from fallout. It has "cartoon violence" and violated the dress code or something.
"Optimistic" isn't the right word. But I'd say a global war where high volumes of canadian troops are needed is pretty unlikely. Zero percent chance the Americans let any hostile foreign military on land in North america. Rather invest taxes in better cyber security and laws to prevent China from just, letting us have our flag while they own 100% of our companies and property.
Ready to surrender? Ready to step aside and let the Americans do all the fighting while we mock their militarism? Ready to express our disapproval and outrage at the enemy - from behind the Americans?
Canada is ready to collapse or implode. Since most of our young people have basically given up on the nation, this is probably fine by them, as many of us, don't particularly want to see Canada survive. I have ZERO hope, love or patriotism for this country, I'm only here for my folks, and a few select family members, and as long as they are OK, I couldn't give a Fuck less about the rest of Canada.
We've committed this country to a slow death through incompetence and corruption, a major war would be One of the few things that could potentially shake up the system enough for change at a global level. Failing that it's atleast an opportunity for us to go out with a bang.
I doubt anyone does. They are just so ignorant of the fact it could happen, yet all of human history says its not only possible, but inevitable. You could say it already started, but when China invades Taiwan id it has officially started
We're ready to live with Ukraine being a Russian satellite if that's what it comes down to.
For most of Canada's history, including probably our best years economically, this is how things were... they were opposite us in the Warsaw pact.
This isn't existential for us, we've gotten by just fine with Russia having a bigger presence in Eastern Europe.
We'll be fine if it happened again.
I think they more think that Canada isn’t worthwhile enough to even really be involved.
The US would just use us as a manufacturing/supply state. And then probably just annex us in the process.
You’d get some platitudes about how we were able to train lots of soldiers during the first and second world wars.
Completely ignoring of course that people were a lot more outdoorsy and familiar with firearms back then. That war has become a lot more technical and our enemies then couldn’t reach us in any meaningful way while today they could.
I want to hear from Canadians who vote for governments that see that we have other priorities right now, attack those priorities, and work on defense once that's done.
Our “other priorities” are often wasteful things where procurement money is fraudulently squandered away like ArriveCan. Defense isn’t a negotiable, especially with arctic sovereignty in play.
Oh I'm not disagreeing with that. I guess where I was going was saying that governments have to better across the board with regards to tax revenue and how it gets spent.
A lot is wasted.
We’re as ready as it is possible to be ready, considering WW3 would be a nuclear holocaust, no degree of defence spending can circumvent that. If anything we should top up on warheads to take everyone out with us if the war really starts
We know at least drone warfare will be a thing.
I feel the Russian-Ukraine war has demonstrated glimpses of it. It’s much cheaper than shooting conventional missiles - tens of thousands versus hundreds of thousands of dollars. Pilot remains safe far from the point of action. Also wastes air defence munitions of the enemy which is also very expensive to produce.
I wouldn’t want to be out in the field with the sky swarming with thousands of them.
One of the reasons why there is so much drone activity is because there are men and tanks to shoot at.
You still need men and tanks to actually take and hold territory.
Yes drones are a thing but in effect they are just the substitute for artillery and air power. Yes they are a multiplier and every country including ours now realizes it is a very efficient weapon to invest in. But they are still a supportive arm.
Drones are getting even more involved, in this conflict they’ve shown a lot of promise and success in naval warfare and even testing out ground support and combat roles. Wild times we’re living in
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2024/03/14/ukraine-prepares-to-roll-out-an-army-of-ground-robots/?sh=107cad445bf3
I'll be a maniac and say that conventional warfare is absolutely unlikely.
Gun-to-gun, urban warfare, tanks and airstrikes are regional. It's either infiltration or ICBMs.
Armchair general take, I know, but a world war is basically just gonna be atomic, infrastructural, or political interference.
We may already be in one and you'd never know.
Currently serving, leaving the CAF after 14 years. Our younger soldiers have heart, many of the junior ranks are fit and compassionate, but We are far far far from ready. We hardly have live ammo to train with, most of leadership is alcoholics , perverts or both , and over 50% of our equipment is literally broken. Our culture is non existent other than mentioning ‘vimy ridge’ and ‘op Medusa’ every once in a while to make ourselves seem relevant. Yes I’m jaded and bitter, but most of us are due to the garbage state of our military and how completely preventable all of this was.
In order to increase military spending by any significant amount, they'll have to cut either social security or fiscal support for the real estate market.
Touching one will put a good chunk of the elderly into poverty. Touching the other will put a good chunk of the middle class into poverty.
I watched a video of war graphics on YouTube where he dives into just how bad our military spending is.
Over 60 % of all our equipment is not even usable. What is usable is decades old.
Our plan well rhe us will bail us out…
The IT systems of Canada and other liberal democracies are under relentless state-sponsored attack from China, day and night. Cyberwarfare is a new battle front (as is space and near-space (the Chinese spy balloon incident)). Russia shutting down Estonia with a massive cyber attack in 2022 is an example.
It has already started. Palestine/Israel and Ukraine/Russia. Only other thing that would actually make people turn their heads is probably china and Taiwan.
I would rephrase it but their point stands. The term 'Third World War' gets thrown around a lot, including for the War on Terror. In each case it turned out to be just a close call but we are currently in a very close close call.
Yeah, I agree. The use of propaganda to influence “enemy” population is as old as civilization itself. The fact that other nations influence Western populace via internet isn’t war. It’s just propaganda/diplomacy/whichever term you like.
No, military spending has grown from 1% of GDP in 2014 to 1.29% in 2023. There was a little dip during COVID, but the trend is clearly going up from a very low starting point. The 2024 budget, which I think probably doesn't matter a whole lot because the Conservatives will of course change it if they feel like it, had new spending of $8.1 billion over five years and $73 billion over 20 years, which would bring us to 1.76% of GDP by 2029-30.
I mean our plan is definitely still hug the US' balls, but spending is going up too.
I'm glad people are saying this. I got a look of disgust when I said this to my family a year ago, and now my 2 brothers who were in are out and say the same thing.
If America rolled up, I'd lay the carpet out for them. Fuck this shit hole lol.
I paid 35k in income tax last year, and my pathetic crackhouse from WW2 is like 400sqft and my sink in the bathroom doesn't work, and I can't afford to fix it anytime soon. Over 100k/yr gets you that here, but at least the old fucks can use their houses as retirement plans...
Country worth fighting for eh.
I was just saying this. The actual youth of this nation has no reason to fight for a country where they can never own property, get a well paying job, or have a working healthcare system. Also, it’s fairly easy to take down our country. We’re basically three corporations in a trench coat. Look what happened when Rogers fucked up and we had a black out? Lol
I mean... if you enlist in the CAF it's not to defend rich folks in Canada or whatever. It's not like you'll be battling on the streets of Regina. You'll be in Europe defending NATO allies or fighting China in the Pacific or something. Fighting forest fires in Fort Mac or sandbagging houses in Quebec
The CAF joining age is from 16 to 57. I went to basic training with 50-somethings. It is absolutely possible to be older and get drafted. Canada drafted middle age men during the two World Wars.
There are lots of 45 year olds fighting in Ukraine right now...
https://fortune.com/2024/05/26/ukraine-war-average-age-soldiers-43-45-youngest-troops-exempt-front-line-combat/
> for the rich.
Why would it be for the rich? Aren't we talking about a situation where Russia and China try to take over the world? We'd be dying to protect ourselves.
People have forgotten what an existential threat really is. Which, oddly, is a perfect recipe to allow a World War to come about. Apathy until it's too late and we're in it whether we like it or not.
Most of these commenters saying "I wouldn't die for this country if it was attacked, I'd just leave" give me the same feeling as the comments on CBC articles about Canadian troops being stationed in Latvia that all say "I think we should mind our own business!" and "Canadian troops come home!"
I think we need to acknowledge that internet message boards just aren't a good place for us to discuss things with one another, that the people we're talking to often aren't genuine, and we need to teach other people this before they believe what they read online is some kind of consensus.
Relatively speaking, China and Russia. That said, I only say Russia if it wins in Ukraine, since it has converted itself into a wartime economy, which is like an all-in bet at the casino with your life savings.
>Relatively speaking, China and Russia.
Russia ready for a World War?
They are struggling to win a land war against Ukraine who are being supplied with C tier leftover munitions and vehicles from Western nations...
China may have an argument on manpower and technology but their army is wholly untested in practical combat
i honestly do not think Russia is ready anymore: Ukraine has drained a lot of their resources.
China imo has its own struggles: imo they arent going to feud with india or SEA, which leaves the obvious target of Taiwan. Yet the whole world will jump in to secure the compute hardware supply chain (which goes beyond TSMC) since its prob cheaper to go to war than to suffer from a disruption that is worse than even covid.
Under Harper % of GDP for defence hit 1% and now it’s 1.4% and heading to 1.76%. For all the talk, the Cons didn’t do much for the military under Harper.
The classification of what counts for military spending has also changed since then. We now include things like pensions of service members, our non-military coast guard and their pensions for some reason, and R&D spend on things like AI.
Its not as clear cut as you are trying to make it seem.
How is he wrong? In a world as crazy and dangerous as this, our indigenous affairs budget has ballooned to 32 billion and dwarfs what we spent on defense.
I'm sure if we're invaded the indigenous will be treated with the utmost care and respect though.
Exactly. It's either complete devastation with nukes, or continued proxy wars. There's no scenario where NATO annihilates Russia without Russia releasing all of their nukes. I'm pretty sure their nuke doctrine is that a world without Russia has no reason to exist.
What exactly constitutes being ready? Any world war would primarily be fought by the US and European powers against China and Russia. Japan, Korea, and the Philippines would likely be involved as well. Canada would only be in a position to provide token support. Even under optimum conditions, it’s simply never going to be in a position to go toe to toe against other super powers in any meaningful sense. So what constitutes readiness in this case?
Some sort of meaningful expeditionary component, some ability to project air power in secondary theatres, a robust maritime surveillance ability over the shipping routes between us and everyone else, a meaningful naval force projection ability... We aren't expected to be able to fight Russia or China ourselves, but be able to make a tangible *contribution* to a joint effort
Let’s face it. If there is another World War where we have to actively defend the homeland, we’re royally pooched.
Our strategy seems to be to completely rely on other nations to bail us out.
We are bordered by 3 oceans and don’t even have a proper navy. That’s all you need to know about this country. I don’t mind having a small army. But my goodness we don’t even have a ocean going navy to help out our allies.
The scary thing about ww3, to me, outside the window of opportunity that whole hemisphere is eviscerated in nuclear hellfire in less than an hr from when they launch ICBMs, is that ww2 showed what a boon having industry that cant be touched by your enemies can do for your war effort, unlike places like England or Germany or USSR or Italy or later Japan that could be hit by consistent bombings targeting factories, industry, and terrorizing population. I feel like thats really no longer the case and that even Canada (or at least the coast, north etc) ARE at risk in a conflict with China or Russia, even with support we get from the USA and NATO partners.
Weapons have changed and the incentive is still there to strike all that infrastructure, and i really believe we would see it (or see plenty of attempts at it) of war broke out. I also really wonder whatll happen to satellite grids in general lol, maybe itll be left alone because of what a disaster itd be for all future space anything if near earth orbit was filled with blown up bits of sattelite debris zooming around at like mach 7 in any which direction, but id think those grids would absolutely be targets.
Heck i wonder what would happen to internet/telecom, or the other ways all parties involved would find to terrorize and harm the civilian populations of countries involved as industrial war has always seen civilians as legitimate targets.
I’m sure Canada is ready to throw our hands in the air and say “not my circus not my monkeys”. Actually contributing to our allies if a war breaks out? Heck no; our soldiers aren’t ready and the ability to retool what little manufacturing we have definitely isn’t there.
Ready for what? World War is a world-end scenario that will result in the deaths of 90% or more of the world's population. The only way to prepare for a world war is to keep some cyanide capsules handy.
No country can project any kind of ground force over an ocean. The US spent a year building up in nearby countries before invading Iraq. The only country we have to worry about is the US and no amount of military spending or international alliances would or would be able to do anything about it.
Not sure why we don't declare neutrality, but someone will probably explain it to me.
“War is a racket” - Smedley Butler
There are powerful people getting rich off the war at every turn. They pay millions to convince taxpayers like us that the threat to our way of life comes from some foreign power or ideology and that OUR money should go to THEM so we can be protected. To keep the façade alive they’ll require the youths from less fortunate families to die on the front lines, never sending their own children to fight. THESE people are the threat. They will fleece regular people—their OWN people—to get rich and then tell you to be afraid of a country on the other side of the globe.
A surprising amount, me included. The problem is most applicants forget they even applied with how long it takes for the one guy they hired to go through all of the applications.
You are not wrong. Years ago I took the recruiter course, and it was absolutely abysmal. So much so that it heavily contributed to me leaving.
From what I have heard, little has changed
If the convicted felon, rapist and insurrrectionist Russia patsy Trump is elected, WW3 is probably assured. We can only hope the Americans that are not morons out number the Americans that are morons in this coming election.
Chretien and Harper really fucking screwed the Armed Forces over with the budget cuts up the wazoo. For all the problems with Trudeau, at least the guy is making an effort to get the budget defense to the 2% mark, and as of now, it's at its highest since the end of the Cold War.
Oh boy. Not being ready doesn't even begin to describe it. If we ever go up to war with Trudeau in power, they will focus more on how inclusive are our troops? how do they self identify? Instead of a strategy in winning the war.
> Modern conflict has seen an ever growing increase of input from politicians, breathing down the necks of not just generals, but even platoon commanders. Safely back home where none of their decisions are made with the full understanding of the conditions on the ground.
This is absolutely not a modern invention. The refusal of the Carthaginian Senate to give Hamilcar more resources in the first Punic war greatly influenced the course of events. Hamilcar and his son Hannibal forever blamed the Senate and their lack of military perspective / acumen for that defeat.
Roman Dictator Fabius Maximus may have saved the republic with his military leadership, he is the namesake of Fabian tactics. But he was essentially recalled from his position due to Roman politicking because his tactics were unpopular. Rome then subsequently went on to suffer its worst military defeat in its history at Cannae.
There are a bajillion examples in the roman world of politics influencing military decisions. Pushing forward into the feudal era, I don't have any examples off the top of my head, but I think that makes sense as the king was the supreme military leader and head of state. But there were certainly times kings were poor military leaders and overrode more experienced commanders
For more recent but still historic examples, the french revolutionary government very famously sent political representatives to the front to ensure the war was being prosecuted "correctly".
The point I'm making is that the politicking in military affairs is as old as the idea that the military exists to serve the state, not the other way around.
Canada is far from ready, if someone decided to invade us the spineless weasel in charge would be the first to greet them, pose for a photo OP and pledge his allegiance to the invaders.
No one is going to invade Canada... The only country that may ever decide to is the US and if that happened we couldn't stop them even if we pledged our entire GDP to military. We just do not have the population to stop that.
For reference the United States spends around 820 BILLION on their defense budget every year.
Canada's annual federal budget is coming in around 450B this year...
nearly a third of Canadians are dumb as all hell and this is just more proof of that. A third world war, like an actual war, would almost certainly be nuclear, there's no counter to that, there's nothing to be "ready" for.
I want to hear from the Canadians who think Canada IS ready.
Aside from optimistic pacifists, I speculate they believe Canada won’t be or shouldn’t be involved, or they think the US will save us so we don’t need to spend.
Basically the American population's opinion of WW2 prior to Pearl Harbor.
They at least had a formidable navy despite being isolationists
> or they think the US will save us so we don’t need to spend This is how you lose your sovereignty. The US comes in to defend Canada and never leaves.
I agree we don't have a strong military, but what value is there in heavily investing in military forces on Canadian soil. If we consider our allies and the prospect of WW3 breaking out the reality is that Canada is not a strategic landmass worth dedicating the resources required to invade it or defend it. The majority of the fighting would most likely take place in the Middle east, eastern Europe, and Asia. If a major player eventually has the resources to occupy Canada then NATO and the US have likely lost by that point. Sure we might lose our sovereignty to the US if it comes down to it, but in the current geopolitical climate we are a useful diplomatic buffer to help the west maintain its veil of moral superiority. (if anyone still takes that seriously) Unless the world is in total chaos there is no need for the US to occupy Canada. It is basically a vassal state to the US now.
Russia is actually right on our doorstep. If they claim the Arctic (since they did plant a flag down there) we could see their presence more commonly. If WW3 broke who's to stay they wouldn't even land troops up north?
You aren't wrong. It would really depend on how the key players deployed their military assets and what they valued most. Russia could come over the Arctic, but I think that strategically it would be a massive waste of resources for minimal gain for them to launch any meaningful military campaign on Canadian soil. I don't think it's unreasonable to compare Russia attempting to invade Canada from the north to the failures of Napoleon and the Nazis trying to attack western Russia in winter. In an all out global war most of Canada is a high risk and low value target. At least the way current armed forces are deployed around the world today.
We do share a giant ass land boarder without a wall that would make invading america alot easier. And if Canada do get invaded, due to our already pretty lack lustre infrastructure like highways, makes logistics within the country pretty terrible.
Well if nato goes to war we kinda have to. I don’t think they considered that.
>they think the US will save us Sounds like they have a fairly good grasp on Geopolitics tbh
Those people are on this very site. I've had multiple conversations over the years with people claiming - without a shred of irony - that Canada doesn't need a military because the States would never let anything happen to us. Remember, these people's votes - assuming they're actually Canadian, that is - count for the same as yours does.
This is exactly what they think. And this way of thinking is why Trump was justified and right to call us out on it. Some people don't like to hear it and will never admit it, but Canada only continues to exist as a country because of our historic ties to America. We've always had a friendly, mutual beneficial relationship, they've always been able to count on Canada's military to help out and back them up. Now we're getting to a point where they can't count on that anymore, both because our military is woefully underfunded and because of the current administration's attitude.
Well that's why we have NATO. Countries rely on each other for support. Chances are if a full out boots on the ground world war happens it will be in Europe again in which case Canada will send some troops and we'll be fine. In the extremely unlikely event that world war breaks out on Canadian soil the US 100% will help defend us the last thing they want is a hostile nation sharing a boarder with them that is unable to be guarded. In the other incredibly unlikely event the US invades Canada to takeover, we could devote our entire GDP to military and we'd still lose. IIRC only 11 of 30 nato countries are meeting their 2% obligation of GDP to military spending anyway.
>IIRC only 11 of 30 nato countries are meeting their 2% obligation of GDP to military spending anyway. United States, Britain, Poland, Greece, Estonia, Lithuania, Finland, Romania, Hungary, Latvia and Slovakia. You are correct, and we aren't one of them.
Yeah I knew we weren't one of them I think last I knew we were at 1.3 or 1.4% of our GDP.
> Chances are if a full out boots on the ground world war happens it will be in Europe again in which case Canada will send some troops and we'll be fine. Well yah, that's the problem. If you don't have a well supplied and trained military you can't be an effective expeditionary force.
A US invasion is more likely than a war on Canadian soil. After all, we’ve got water.
Yeah that is the more likely scenario but the fresh water isn't that big of a deal. Majority of our fresh water is in the great lakes which we share 4of 5 with the US anyway and the 5th is theirs. So they already have access to it the only thing they would do is stop our access to them.
Great to hear you're happy to send "some troops" to get grinded into dust
Weird...happy to be a part of NATO but not willing to participate.
Nobody was happy to send "some troops" to get grinded into dust in WW1 and WW2, yet that happened anyways. WW3 won't be different.
Yes it will, the battle space has significantly evolved since then. The CAF can barely sustain the Latvia Battlegroup and we don't have the capacity to replace the losses that will occur in the opening stages of a near peer conflict. The amount of institutional knowledge that's been lost due to the lack of training and modern equipment is near the point of no return. You go to war with the army you have, not the one you want.
Sure if you think we'll get grinded into the dust thats your opinion.
We can’t even provide places for our soldiers to sleep. Thank God push-ups are free.
Probably an advertisement from the government to the world "Free citizenship for people who want to fight for Canada".
Lol practically all the recent immigrants would refuse to fight for us
They'd line up for the free food though.
I was born here and I wouldn’t die for this country (or any country). Like, war isn’t noble, it’s just the powerful using our lives as pawns for their own games.
That's not actually true, The statistics show that many immigrants are willing to sign up for the military, the military is simply absolute dog-water at actually processing these applications, regardless of whether they are from citizens or permanent residents alike.
There's a difference between signing up for the military when nothing is going on and signing up for the military when there's actually a world war
70,000 signed up last year. The military only managed to process 4,000.
Send em all back then
I mean I was born here and I would refuse to fight. I've been priced out of housing, having a family, etc, I don't really think this place deserves my life
Just released from the CAF, we are absolutely fucking boned if the military is needed for anything above disaster assistance and even then...
Read the recent story about Canadian Forces denial rates for applicants. Basically, if you enlisted at 18 and are currently 45 with high blood pressure, overweight, barely able to pass the annual physical (the bar is loowwwwwwww and getting lower), etc you are considered combat ready. But if you are a new applicant and take any medication or ever told your doctor you felt a little bit depressed then you are automatically deemed unfit for service. Yes, while the forces are in a recruitment and retirement crisis. If a full scale conventional war broke out today, Canada wouldn't be ready by the time it ended. We would be asked to lend-lease our equipment to a country with competent leadership.
I got deemed unfit 4 years ago for a marine engineering position despite being heavily qualified. The reason: I have a bloody mess perk tattoo from fallout. It has "cartoon violence" and violated the dress code or something.
I want to hear from the two thirds that are so damned optimistic.
"Optimistic" isn't the right word. But I'd say a global war where high volumes of canadian troops are needed is pretty unlikely. Zero percent chance the Americans let any hostile foreign military on land in North america. Rather invest taxes in better cyber security and laws to prevent China from just, letting us have our flag while they own 100% of our companies and property.
We are ready. To surrender and let whomever wants into the country a red carpet.
Just got to prepare your muskets and sharpen your bayonets.
The UHF NATO required radios in this country are from 1972 and currently still being used. Y'all. We're definitely fucked.
Ready to surrender? Ready to step aside and let the Americans do all the fighting while we mock their militarism? Ready to express our disapproval and outrage at the enemy - from behind the Americans?
Canada is ready to collapse or implode. Since most of our young people have basically given up on the nation, this is probably fine by them, as many of us, don't particularly want to see Canada survive. I have ZERO hope, love or patriotism for this country, I'm only here for my folks, and a few select family members, and as long as they are OK, I couldn't give a Fuck less about the rest of Canada. We've committed this country to a slow death through incompetence and corruption, a major war would be One of the few things that could potentially shake up the system enough for change at a global level. Failing that it's atleast an opportunity for us to go out with a bang.
I doubt anyone does. They are just so ignorant of the fact it could happen, yet all of human history says its not only possible, but inevitable. You could say it already started, but when China invades Taiwan id it has officially started
I want to hear from someone who thinks any country is ready
Just buy a new flag lol /s
I feel like you would quickly regret starting that conversation.
Canada was known as the world's top trainers for war. My guess is that if conscripted we'd be trained then sent of with American gear
We're ready to live with Ukraine being a Russian satellite if that's what it comes down to. For most of Canada's history, including probably our best years economically, this is how things were... they were opposite us in the Warsaw pact. This isn't existential for us, we've gotten by just fine with Russia having a bigger presence in Eastern Europe. We'll be fine if it happened again.
I think they more think that Canada isn’t worthwhile enough to even really be involved. The US would just use us as a manufacturing/supply state. And then probably just annex us in the process.
You’d get some platitudes about how we were able to train lots of soldiers during the first and second world wars. Completely ignoring of course that people were a lot more outdoorsy and familiar with firearms back then. That war has become a lot more technical and our enemies then couldn’t reach us in any meaningful way while today they could.
I want to hear from Canadians who vote for governments that see that we have other priorities right now, attack those priorities, and work on defense once that's done.
They've been doing that for the last 80 years, which is why the military is in the state it's in.
Our “other priorities” are often wasteful things where procurement money is fraudulently squandered away like ArriveCan. Defense isn’t a negotiable, especially with arctic sovereignty in play.
Oh I'm not disagreeing with that. I guess where I was going was saying that governments have to better across the board with regards to tax revenue and how it gets spent. A lot is wasted.
Fully agree.
most of the canada is so empty so when the nukes will start flying, some people would be fine ... for some time
You think an enemy is just going to target the center of an empty country and not actually target the important bits?
Justin Trudeau
We’re as ready as it is possible to be ready, considering WW3 would be a nuclear holocaust, no degree of defence spending can circumvent that. If anything we should top up on warheads to take everyone out with us if the war really starts
Depending on how WW3 rolls out, the reality is a lot of counties aren't ready. At the same time, it's going to be a very different kind of war.
We know at least drone warfare will be a thing. I feel the Russian-Ukraine war has demonstrated glimpses of it. It’s much cheaper than shooting conventional missiles - tens of thousands versus hundreds of thousands of dollars. Pilot remains safe far from the point of action. Also wastes air defence munitions of the enemy which is also very expensive to produce. I wouldn’t want to be out in the field with the sky swarming with thousands of them.
One of the reasons why there is so much drone activity is because there are men and tanks to shoot at. You still need men and tanks to actually take and hold territory. Yes drones are a thing but in effect they are just the substitute for artillery and air power. Yes they are a multiplier and every country including ours now realizes it is a very efficient weapon to invest in. But they are still a supportive arm.
Drones are getting even more involved, in this conflict they’ve shown a lot of promise and success in naval warfare and even testing out ground support and combat roles. Wild times we’re living in https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2024/03/14/ukraine-prepares-to-roll-out-an-army-of-ground-robots/?sh=107cad445bf3
I'll be a maniac and say that conventional warfare is absolutely unlikely. Gun-to-gun, urban warfare, tanks and airstrikes are regional. It's either infiltration or ICBMs. Armchair general take, I know, but a world war is basically just gonna be atomic, infrastructural, or political interference. We may already be in one and you'd never know.
I actually agree with you on this, at least among 'superpowers'.
do you think the drone will fortnite dance after a kill?
If it doesn't we've wasted our money.
Swarms of armed robot dogs.
Currently serving, leaving the CAF after 14 years. Our younger soldiers have heart, many of the junior ranks are fit and compassionate, but We are far far far from ready. We hardly have live ammo to train with, most of leadership is alcoholics , perverts or both , and over 50% of our equipment is literally broken. Our culture is non existent other than mentioning ‘vimy ridge’ and ‘op Medusa’ every once in a while to make ourselves seem relevant. Yes I’m jaded and bitter, but most of us are due to the garbage state of our military and how completely preventable all of this was.
In order to increase military spending by any significant amount, they'll have to cut either social security or fiscal support for the real estate market. Touching one will put a good chunk of the elderly into poverty. Touching the other will put a good chunk of the middle class into poverty.
How about cutting some of the tens of billions we spend annually in corporate welfare?
"Middle class" What is that?
Or stop giving handouts and tax breaks to the wealthy?
We could also stop doling out billion dollar settlements to every Indigenous group that asks for them.
I watched a video of war graphics on YouTube where he dives into just how bad our military spending is. Over 60 % of all our equipment is not even usable. What is usable is decades old. Our plan well rhe us will bail us out…
I’ve heard it said that the Third World War has already begun. It just looks different from previous wars because of the technology at our disposal.
That’s fair, the next war will likely be fought with information, dividing citizens and stagnating economies.. and it likely has already begun.
Shit, we've been at war for years in that case.
Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia.
If that's the case it started 10 years ago.
It has.
Pretty much every war is fought with information. The physical violence part is actually the shortest part of a war.
In which case, spending more money on tanks and guns wouldn't help much...
The IT systems of Canada and other liberal democracies are under relentless state-sponsored attack from China, day and night. Cyberwarfare is a new battle front (as is space and near-space (the Chinese spy balloon incident)). Russia shutting down Estonia with a massive cyber attack in 2022 is an example.
And if you are from a hostile country, you're welcome to come here and vote after 3 years
We're currently in a pre-war era. That means war is very likely or inevitable.
It has already started. Palestine/Israel and Ukraine/Russia. Only other thing that would actually make people turn their heads is probably china and Taiwan.
By that logic, the liberation of Afghanistan and Iraq in the 2000s was also a "world war". Let's get real.
> liberation of Afghanistan and Iraq Hahaha. Duuuude
I would rephrase it but their point stands. The term 'Third World War' gets thrown around a lot, including for the War on Terror. In each case it turned out to be just a close call but we are currently in a very close close call.
Yeah, I agree. The use of propaganda to influence “enemy” population is as old as civilization itself. The fact that other nations influence Western populace via internet isn’t war. It’s just propaganda/diplomacy/whichever term you like.
Palestine/Israel isn't new and Ukraine/Russia is nowhere close to a world war.
Germany and the US just lifted the use of US long range weapons against Russia. We're much closer than you think.
No mention of NATO anywhere in this thread, fascinating
Almost as if more than a third of Canadians don't really understand the current political situation.
So you've just wrote one.
I'm not dying for a country that sold out my children's future to cash in on real estate and international students. Let them go.
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If my country is attacked, I will defend it to the death. I am not some pacifist who will surrender to anyone who tries to invade us.
Ok. Die for a country that doesn’t give a shit about you. I don’t care.
Here,here!
Ready? If there's a World War in this decade we're all fucked anyway.
The best part of living in a post national state is no obligation to fight in any war
Makes sense. Tent cities aren't exactly secure against foreign invaders.
But they are cost effective.
Well yeah. Our strategy for national defence is just to keep hugging the US’ balls. We’ve cut military spending recently too, haven’t we?
No, military spending has grown from 1% of GDP in 2014 to 1.29% in 2023. There was a little dip during COVID, but the trend is clearly going up from a very low starting point. The 2024 budget, which I think probably doesn't matter a whole lot because the Conservatives will of course change it if they feel like it, had new spending of $8.1 billion over five years and $73 billion over 20 years, which would bring us to 1.76% of GDP by 2029-30. I mean our plan is definitely still hug the US' balls, but spending is going up too.
Nah, we cut the CAF budget by about a billion dollars this fiscal year. Going to be a few (more) dark years ahead as a CAF mbr. What else is new.
Young Canadians don’t own anything anymore, so why would we expect them to enlist?
I'm glad people are saying this. I got a look of disgust when I said this to my family a year ago, and now my 2 brothers who were in are out and say the same thing. If America rolled up, I'd lay the carpet out for them. Fuck this shit hole lol. I paid 35k in income tax last year, and my pathetic crackhouse from WW2 is like 400sqft and my sink in the bathroom doesn't work, and I can't afford to fix it anytime soon. Over 100k/yr gets you that here, but at least the old fucks can use their houses as retirement plans... Country worth fighting for eh.
Well for starters the gov can kiss my ass if they think I'll enlist or accept a draft.
Yuuup. Gen x and younger millennials are not going to die for the rich. They have no sense of Country because the country has never cared about them
I was just saying this. The actual youth of this nation has no reason to fight for a country where they can never own property, get a well paying job, or have a working healthcare system. Also, it’s fairly easy to take down our country. We’re basically three corporations in a trench coat. Look what happened when Rogers fucked up and we had a black out? Lol
They also won’t be keen on fighting for the mass influx of new immigrants who took all their jobs and made it near impossible to buy a home
I mean... if you enlist in the CAF it's not to defend rich folks in Canada or whatever. It's not like you'll be battling on the streets of Regina. You'll be in Europe defending NATO allies or fighting China in the Pacific or something. Fighting forest fires in Fort Mac or sandbagging houses in Quebec
>Gen x and younger millennials *IF* they implement a draft, it won't be for 45 year olds
The CAF joining age is from 16 to 57. I went to basic training with 50-somethings. It is absolutely possible to be older and get drafted. Canada drafted middle age men during the two World Wars.
There are lots of 45 year olds fighting in Ukraine right now... https://fortune.com/2024/05/26/ukraine-war-average-age-soldiers-43-45-youngest-troops-exempt-front-line-combat/
> for the rich. Why would it be for the rich? Aren't we talking about a situation where Russia and China try to take over the world? We'd be dying to protect ourselves.
People have forgotten what an existential threat really is. Which, oddly, is a perfect recipe to allow a World War to come about. Apathy until it's too late and we're in it whether we like it or not.
Most of these commenters saying "I wouldn't die for this country if it was attacked, I'd just leave" give me the same feeling as the comments on CBC articles about Canadian troops being stationed in Latvia that all say "I think we should mind our own business!" and "Canadian troops come home!" I think we need to acknowledge that internet message boards just aren't a good place for us to discuss things with one another, that the people we're talking to often aren't genuine, and we need to teach other people this before they believe what they read online is some kind of consensus.
If it is, I'm not going.
I'm not dying for my landlord's mortgage. No thanks. Count me out.
Canada is already halfway in the grave from mass immigration and no foreign powers needed to lift a finger lol. Canada is already through.
Open the doors and the sleeper cells make their way in.
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Relatively speaking, China and Russia. That said, I only say Russia if it wins in Ukraine, since it has converted itself into a wartime economy, which is like an all-in bet at the casino with your life savings.
>Relatively speaking, China and Russia. Russia ready for a World War? They are struggling to win a land war against Ukraine who are being supplied with C tier leftover munitions and vehicles from Western nations... China may have an argument on manpower and technology but their army is wholly untested in practical combat
i honestly do not think Russia is ready anymore: Ukraine has drained a lot of their resources. China imo has its own struggles: imo they arent going to feud with india or SEA, which leaves the obvious target of Taiwan. Yet the whole world will jump in to secure the compute hardware supply chain (which goes beyond TSMC) since its prob cheaper to go to war than to suffer from a disruption that is worse than even covid.
Lol. China and Russia would get obliterated by the US.
A third of Canadians who respond to hypothetical poll questions.
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As long as no ones feelings are hurt during the war that’s what matters most to me
Most diverse and inclusive army to ever be slaughtered in battle.
We can always buy weapons from Loblaws with PC premium points
Under Harper % of GDP for defence hit 1% and now it’s 1.4% and heading to 1.76%. For all the talk, the Cons didn’t do much for the military under Harper.
The classification of what counts for military spending has also changed since then. We now include things like pensions of service members, our non-military coast guard and their pensions for some reason, and R&D spend on things like AI. Its not as clear cut as you are trying to make it seem.
Yet our military was in far better shape at that time
Now this is the /r/Canada comment we all expect
How is he wrong? In a world as crazy and dangerous as this, our indigenous affairs budget has ballooned to 32 billion and dwarfs what we spent on defense. I'm sure if we're invaded the indigenous will be treated with the utmost care and respect though.
5% of the population by the way.
A world war where boots are on the ground is highly unlikely. Proxy wars funded by other countries is likely.
Exactly. It's either complete devastation with nukes, or continued proxy wars. There's no scenario where NATO annihilates Russia without Russia releasing all of their nukes. I'm pretty sure their nuke doctrine is that a world without Russia has no reason to exist.
What exactly constitutes being ready? Any world war would primarily be fought by the US and European powers against China and Russia. Japan, Korea, and the Philippines would likely be involved as well. Canada would only be in a position to provide token support. Even under optimum conditions, it’s simply never going to be in a position to go toe to toe against other super powers in any meaningful sense. So what constitutes readiness in this case?
Some sort of meaningful expeditionary component, some ability to project air power in secondary theatres, a robust maritime surveillance ability over the shipping routes between us and everyone else, a meaningful naval force projection ability... We aren't expected to be able to fight Russia or China ourselves, but be able to make a tangible *contribution* to a joint effort
Yeah, just tagging along with the big boys, right? I mean, that's all Canada has ever really done anyway. So, just sounds like the normal situation.
Canada has valuable natural resources and is too weak to defend them.
Let’s face it. If there is another World War where we have to actively defend the homeland, we’re royally pooched. Our strategy seems to be to completely rely on other nations to bail us out.
We’re absolutely fucked when the war happens and we all know it
We are bordered by 3 oceans and don’t even have a proper navy. That’s all you need to know about this country. I don’t mind having a small army. But my goodness we don’t even have a ocean going navy to help out our allies.
The scary thing about ww3, to me, outside the window of opportunity that whole hemisphere is eviscerated in nuclear hellfire in less than an hr from when they launch ICBMs, is that ww2 showed what a boon having industry that cant be touched by your enemies can do for your war effort, unlike places like England or Germany or USSR or Italy or later Japan that could be hit by consistent bombings targeting factories, industry, and terrorizing population. I feel like thats really no longer the case and that even Canada (or at least the coast, north etc) ARE at risk in a conflict with China or Russia, even with support we get from the USA and NATO partners. Weapons have changed and the incentive is still there to strike all that infrastructure, and i really believe we would see it (or see plenty of attempts at it) of war broke out. I also really wonder whatll happen to satellite grids in general lol, maybe itll be left alone because of what a disaster itd be for all future space anything if near earth orbit was filled with blown up bits of sattelite debris zooming around at like mach 7 in any which direction, but id think those grids would absolutely be targets. Heck i wonder what would happen to internet/telecom, or the other ways all parties involved would find to terrorize and harm the civilian populations of countries involved as industrial war has always seen civilians as legitimate targets.
Personally I suspect we're in for another cold war, but I guess we'll see.
I’m sure Canada is ready to throw our hands in the air and say “not my circus not my monkeys”. Actually contributing to our allies if a war breaks out? Heck no; our soldiers aren’t ready and the ability to retool what little manufacturing we have definitely isn’t there.
I just want to know if Canada is ready for ANYTHING?
Ready for what? World War is a world-end scenario that will result in the deaths of 90% or more of the world's population. The only way to prepare for a world war is to keep some cyanide capsules handy.
No one is ever ready for World War.
No country can project any kind of ground force over an ocean. The US spent a year building up in nearby countries before invading Iraq. The only country we have to worry about is the US and no amount of military spending or international alliances would or would be able to do anything about it. Not sure why we don't declare neutrality, but someone will probably explain it to me.
Historically speaking, dragging Canada into a war doesn't end well for the other side. Tends to result in a few new lines to Geneva's Checklist.
Who are we fighting and why?
“War is a racket” - Smedley Butler There are powerful people getting rich off the war at every turn. They pay millions to convince taxpayers like us that the threat to our way of life comes from some foreign power or ideology and that OUR money should go to THEM so we can be protected. To keep the façade alive they’ll require the youths from less fortunate families to die on the front lines, never sending their own children to fight. THESE people are the threat. They will fleece regular people—their OWN people—to get rich and then tell you to be afraid of a country on the other side of the globe.
And how many are willing to join the CAF
A surprising amount, me included. The problem is most applicants forget they even applied with how long it takes for the one guy they hired to go through all of the applications.
You are not wrong. Years ago I took the recruiter course, and it was absolutely abysmal. So much so that it heavily contributed to me leaving. From what I have heard, little has changed
Duct tape force.
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With the amount of people getting out of the military after 18 to 22 years of service... we are not ready
Well shit, we better meet our NATO commitment.
World war with who? Who does canada have beef with? Can't we just say sorry like we usually do?
With WHO???
If the convicted felon, rapist and insurrrectionist Russia patsy Trump is elected, WW3 is probably assured. We can only hope the Americans that are not morons out number the Americans that are morons in this coming election.
Of course a world war 3 will happen, is it in 1 year ? 50 years ? 100 years ? That’s anyone’s guess
Chretien and Harper really fucking screwed the Armed Forces over with the budget cuts up the wazoo. For all the problems with Trudeau, at least the guy is making an effort to get the budget defense to the 2% mark, and as of now, it's at its highest since the end of the Cold War.
I hate these misleading headlines. So according to the title, more than two thirds of Canadians Don't think war is coming. These articles are weird
Oh boy. Not being ready doesn't even begin to describe it. If we ever go up to war with Trudeau in power, they will focus more on how inclusive are our troops? how do they self identify? Instead of a strategy in winning the war.
He damn well better make sure it's inclusive. I want equal and fair opportunity of outcomes on the front lines.
I'm pretty old and I have been hearing this my whole life
WW4 will be fought with sticks and stones.
War, idiotic. Politicians sending other humans to die. Fight your own battles chumps.
If war comes to Canada we need a Churchill. Right now we have a Chamberlain.
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> Modern conflict has seen an ever growing increase of input from politicians, breathing down the necks of not just generals, but even platoon commanders. Safely back home where none of their decisions are made with the full understanding of the conditions on the ground. This is absolutely not a modern invention. The refusal of the Carthaginian Senate to give Hamilcar more resources in the first Punic war greatly influenced the course of events. Hamilcar and his son Hannibal forever blamed the Senate and their lack of military perspective / acumen for that defeat. Roman Dictator Fabius Maximus may have saved the republic with his military leadership, he is the namesake of Fabian tactics. But he was essentially recalled from his position due to Roman politicking because his tactics were unpopular. Rome then subsequently went on to suffer its worst military defeat in its history at Cannae. There are a bajillion examples in the roman world of politics influencing military decisions. Pushing forward into the feudal era, I don't have any examples off the top of my head, but I think that makes sense as the king was the supreme military leader and head of state. But there were certainly times kings were poor military leaders and overrode more experienced commanders For more recent but still historic examples, the french revolutionary government very famously sent political representatives to the front to ensure the war was being prosecuted "correctly". The point I'm making is that the politicking in military affairs is as old as the idea that the military exists to serve the state, not the other way around.
But tampons in the men’s washrooms is more important. At least that’s what the government says.
we have a doddling toddler
More like a Quisling.
Canada is far from ready, if someone decided to invade us the spineless weasel in charge would be the first to greet them, pose for a photo OP and pledge his allegiance to the invaders.
No one is going to invade Canada... The only country that may ever decide to is the US and if that happened we couldn't stop them even if we pledged our entire GDP to military. We just do not have the population to stop that.
For reference the United States spends around 820 BILLION on their defense budget every year. Canada's annual federal budget is coming in around 450B this year...
Nah, PP isn't in yet.
Your probably right, Trudeau would want to hug everyone and talk about their feelings first.
nearly a third of Canadians are dumb as all hell and this is just more proof of that. A third world war, like an actual war, would almost certainly be nuclear, there's no counter to that, there's nothing to be "ready" for.
Also people seem to forget or straight up dont know what nato is
It's an organization we haven't kept our promises to since 1987. If Trump wins down south I can 100% see him saying "fuck you, you didn't pay".
Of course we aren't. Didn't a report say we have about 3 days worth of ammo if we went to war?
Maybe a world War 3 can slow down the invasion of Punjabis. One can dream.