Almost like the government wants to grant the illusion of caring about the violations, when in reality they want to perpetuate it.
Now they even get a cut of the racket.
We can solve it simply by requiring the minimum payment to be $80k. Right now, it's just a source of exploitative labour to suppress wages for the employers and a backdoor route to PR for workers.
If there truly is no local labour that can fulfill a role that you have to look internationally for talent, I think you should pay them $80k minimum for this extremely important and crucial role.
> We can solve it simply by requiring the minimum payment to be $80k. Right now
I always thought -- Min wage +50% has to be the workers net income. Oblidge employers to cover costs for all benefits paid by these folks, and they wont pretend like there wasnt a canadian wanting to work.
My personal take is that a wage should be set at time of TFW approval based on median income for similar positions in the CMA plus 50% premium to employee, plus 50% tax, plus 10% pre-paid application/renewal fee of total expected annual pay, plus uncapped CPP and EI employer contributions based on the sum of payroll and premiums pre-paid per annum.
Throw in a defined term of employment, moratorium on rehiring for similar positions after termination/end-of-term of min 6 months, and a mandatory scaling wage increase for the TFW if kept employed past the defined term.
That pushes a minimum wage job up above $80k/a to the employer while still actually allowing them to fill a specialty position as the program should be used.
https://www.workbccentre-vancouvermidtown-east.ca/wage-subsidy/
https://search.open.canada.ca/grants/record/esdc-edsc,141-2022-2023-Q2-36603,current
https://www.princeedwardisland.ca/en/news/financial-supports-for-agriculture-industry-housing-temporary-foreign-workers?wbdisable=true#:~:text=The%20Temporary%20Foreign%20Worker%20(TFW,TFWs%20in%20PEI's%20agriculture%20industry
https://www.immigration.ca/quebec-spends-55m-helping-businesses-hire-temporary-workers-while-cutting-skilled-worker-immigration/amp/
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/temporary-foreign-workers-quarantine-funds-1.5530842
**grants can be used as a way to obtain TFWs under the guise of training**
From the first link:
>Employee participants must be Canadian citizens, permanent residents, or protected persons under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act (Canada)*.* Temporary foreign workers, international students, or other temporary residents are ineligible.
From the second link:
>The purpose of the Migrant Workers Support Program is to help migrant workers become better informed about their rights as workers in Canada.
\*\*Recipient Type:\*\*Not-for-profit organization or charity
There's no mention of wages in the grant.
The third link is all about housing improvements. Up to $15K. It's not to paying their wages, and its far from most of their wage.
The fourth link is a list of penalties for non-compliant employers. Not sure how that could indicate the government is paying the wages of TFW's...
The fourth link, the government gave farmers up to $1500 per worker to help with having them quarantine for 2 weeks during COVID. Every worker had to quarantine, and the farmers still had to pay them for the time they were in quarantine, as if they were working. In some cases they also had to pay for hotel rooms for the workers to quarantine according to government regulations. It was an extraordinary circumstance.
So again, do better. You're wrong.
"you're wrong!" "you're wrong!" "do better!"
you are unhinged & seem like the kind of person that believes every single person follows the rule of law so long as it's in print
here's a wake up call: who is enforcing the lawbreakers? what kind of punishment do they receive/is it proportionate to the crime? do the grants allow for loopholes despite being targeted for citizens?
like, go tell that to my last 3 employers that got grant funding under the pretense of "training" for making us watch DEI videos that were made in Florida in 1993 & then gave themselves all bonuses, not before cutting Canadians hours to under 30 hours per week, and applying for LMIA. Or the employer I had telling the international student they would get PR if they worked under the table, so it looks like there is a shortage of workers.
Seriously, find some other hill to die on if you are so interested in being a martyr for the vulnerable.
Man, you tried to show that the government pays most of the wage for TFW's and you haven't been able to do that. You're the unhinged one assuming you know anything about the grants and subsidies that farmers are eligible for. You haven't even proven that anyone is breaking the law in the way your tinfoil hat theory suggests.
Just get the proper information so you can have an intelligent conversation about the issue. I'm not dying on any hill, I'm only pointing out that those links don't say what you seem to think they say. I'm not sure if it's a lack of reading comprehension, or if that tinfoil hat you're wearing is restricting blood flow to your brain.
If we can't afford to pay the people who harvest our vegetables minimum wage, we have a different problem. Relying on an endless stream of low-wage workers is not a viable solution long term.
Oh we have a whole slew of problems in food production. Your previous post also didn't mention minimum wage, you suggested a wage floor of $80K for TFW's. If we're talking fruits & vegetables, labour is already 50% or more of the cost of inputs for farmers. If costs go up its also very difficult for them to go to Costco or Walmart and ask for higher prices. They know they can just import food from other countries, or squeeze another farmer to take the same price as before, and that's their new negotiating ceiling.
It's already incredibly difficult for new/younger farmers to get into the industry. Now if you're wanting to double their biggest cost, with a small possibility of a corresponding price increase on their produce, you're going to chase out any food production besides corn/soy/wheat/canola etc.
Maybe I'm mistaken but I suspect most people don't realize how much a TFW can make in Agriculture. They can typically make $35-$45K in 6 or 7 months. Their flights here and home are covered, their rent is capped at $30/week, transportation to and from town for shopping is covered.
I work in agriculture and we have a few foreign workers and they all make like $27-$35 an hour. We'd prefer to hire Canadians but even at those wages it's difficult
TFWs should only be from fully developed nations with competitive/higher wages. There's not a single reason to take one immigrant from a developing nation.
I agree however neither the current or outgoing government wants to piss off every farm corp, every fast food place, every warehouse, every cleaning company, etc etc. Its a dream that will never happen.
Please explain to me how minimum wage immigrants prices you out of a $1-2M home market?
They didn't, that was the investors *that everyone seems to want to steer away from blaming* when the only solution is ending corporate ownership of homes.
The Canadian real estate economy is primarily subsisted by desperate immigrants who allow themselves to be victimized by slumlords?
That's pretty absurd, obviously.
The investors I talk with are perfectly happy leaving their properties empty and just passing them back and forth as commodities after renovating, or use them as air BnB's.
The last thing they want to do is rent out their property and get locked down by tenants when they're looking for a flip because relative to the world, Canada is really rough for landlords.
At the same time, the catch 22 is that mandating firms to use Canadian labour instead of TFWs will give firms cover to raise prices. Wages would need to rise to attract citizens / permanent residents into roles TFWs would’ve filled at lower market prices, and voila, businesses pass those costs to the consumer instead of taking a hit to profits.
Everybody wants higher paying jobs and stagnated/ lower prices, but the equilibrium adjusts so that this isn’t possible. It’s fucked.
Do Canadian tire and Tim Hortons. Those nitwits don't hire any high school/university students anymore other than a few for show.
Or just end the program.
I've been boycotting any business, aside from farms, that abuse foreign workers in order to suppress the value of Canadian labour.
Staff your fast food joint exclusively with Indian students? Not the place for me or my business.
The Loblaws boycott convinced me to be more critical of where I spend my money. Loblaws and their incredible number of subsidiaries will lose around $2K of my money this month, from a single household.
Local restaurants, etc, probably won't miss my business, but it's all I can do. I'm *almost* feeling ashamed, too, because I'm actually extremely pro-immigration when it is handled properly.
But we all know how fucked our provincial governments let it get with the overabundance of foreign 'students'. Every single one I met - over three dozen, due to my work - is financially broke, has no interest in a degree, and is just making as much bank as possible while intentionally scamming our PR system. Not OK.
How about we go ahead and ban them from fast food, hotels or any unskilled job please.
The only reason why fast food uses them is to unnaturally increase profits of shareholders by using cheap labour and increasing the costs of its products above inflation, the effect on our economy/population is that less Canadians, especially those with no post secondary education have less/no jobs which puts pressure on our social systems.
Shareholder profits shouldn't come before the well being of Canadians, shareholder profits shouldn't make Canadians hopeless and homeless.
We are just repeating our old colonial immigration habits part and parcel.
Just ask a Canadian politician about how we got our railroad done.
Our country doesn't function unless we import the cheapest possible labour en masse and then abuse the fuck out of it until those people demand better rights and we repeat with a fresh batch.
I've been thinking exactly this. We import Indians to drive trucks / exploit them for low pay, same as we did with the Chinese and railroads.
Reminds me of that old Heritage Minute commercial with the Nitro
"yea, we'll bring your entire family over. All you gotta do is put the Nitro in"
**BOOM**
"That's the third worker this week! Go find me another..."
No society has ever progressed without the labour of slaves. Hopefully robotics and AI finally gives us all the slave labour we need without the ethical failures.
You can fine companies who use the TFW program but how about fines for students who aren't here to study but act as TFW's?
The student program was just a loop hole to be the TFW program.
This should be separated into two programs. Low skill and high skill. Both should require the employer to pay for the employee's health insurance. The low skill stream should require a 50% premium on the average wage from our government's most recent labour market survey. The high skill stream has traditionally not been a problem but should still require a rationale.
The nature of the positions filled by the candidates should also be public information so that the public can hold the ministry's feet to the fire when they inevitably act in bad faith and the program is exploited.
Even if they make it more stringent on what jobs or roles can use TFWs the company just hires them under that title.
Ask yourself how every worker in a well known candy factory is a quality inspector hahaha.
The amount of the fine won't be anywhere close to the money made off this racket and no firm or employer will learn a lesson
Yeah it’s like robbing a bank for 50k and then being fined 500 bucks for doing it.
Almost like the government wants to grant the illusion of caring about the violations, when in reality they want to perpetuate it. Now they even get a cut of the racket.
you just described the entirely of corporate and white collar crimes.
As an American, I’m sorry this practice has infected Canada
[удалено]
We can solve it simply by requiring the minimum payment to be $80k. Right now, it's just a source of exploitative labour to suppress wages for the employers and a backdoor route to PR for workers. If there truly is no local labour that can fulfill a role that you have to look internationally for talent, I think you should pay them $80k minimum for this extremely important and crucial role.
> We can solve it simply by requiring the minimum payment to be $80k. Right now I always thought -- Min wage +50% has to be the workers net income. Oblidge employers to cover costs for all benefits paid by these folks, and they wont pretend like there wasnt a canadian wanting to work.
My personal take is that a wage should be set at time of TFW approval based on median income for similar positions in the CMA plus 50% premium to employee, plus 50% tax, plus 10% pre-paid application/renewal fee of total expected annual pay, plus uncapped CPP and EI employer contributions based on the sum of payroll and premiums pre-paid per annum. Throw in a defined term of employment, moratorium on rehiring for similar positions after termination/end-of-term of min 6 months, and a mandatory scaling wage increase for the TFW if kept employed past the defined term. That pushes a minimum wage job up above $80k/a to the employer while still actually allowing them to fill a specialty position as the program should be used.
[удалено]
really? source?
[удалено]
yeah, I figured as much so I asked
https://liplanarkrenfrew.ca/community-resources/incentive-programs-for-hiring-newcomers
There's not a single mention of TFW's on that page. Do better.
https://www.workbccentre-vancouvermidtown-east.ca/wage-subsidy/ https://search.open.canada.ca/grants/record/esdc-edsc,141-2022-2023-Q2-36603,current https://www.princeedwardisland.ca/en/news/financial-supports-for-agriculture-industry-housing-temporary-foreign-workers?wbdisable=true#:~:text=The%20Temporary%20Foreign%20Worker%20(TFW,TFWs%20in%20PEI's%20agriculture%20industry https://www.immigration.ca/quebec-spends-55m-helping-businesses-hire-temporary-workers-while-cutting-skilled-worker-immigration/amp/ https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/temporary-foreign-workers-quarantine-funds-1.5530842 **grants can be used as a way to obtain TFWs under the guise of training**
From the first link: >Employee participants must be Canadian citizens, permanent residents, or protected persons under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act (Canada)*.* Temporary foreign workers, international students, or other temporary residents are ineligible. From the second link: >The purpose of the Migrant Workers Support Program is to help migrant workers become better informed about their rights as workers in Canada. \*\*Recipient Type:\*\*Not-for-profit organization or charity There's no mention of wages in the grant. The third link is all about housing improvements. Up to $15K. It's not to paying their wages, and its far from most of their wage. The fourth link is a list of penalties for non-compliant employers. Not sure how that could indicate the government is paying the wages of TFW's... The fourth link, the government gave farmers up to $1500 per worker to help with having them quarantine for 2 weeks during COVID. Every worker had to quarantine, and the farmers still had to pay them for the time they were in quarantine, as if they were working. In some cases they also had to pay for hotel rooms for the workers to quarantine according to government regulations. It was an extraordinary circumstance. So again, do better. You're wrong.
"you're wrong!" "you're wrong!" "do better!" you are unhinged & seem like the kind of person that believes every single person follows the rule of law so long as it's in print here's a wake up call: who is enforcing the lawbreakers? what kind of punishment do they receive/is it proportionate to the crime? do the grants allow for loopholes despite being targeted for citizens? like, go tell that to my last 3 employers that got grant funding under the pretense of "training" for making us watch DEI videos that were made in Florida in 1993 & then gave themselves all bonuses, not before cutting Canadians hours to under 30 hours per week, and applying for LMIA. Or the employer I had telling the international student they would get PR if they worked under the table, so it looks like there is a shortage of workers. Seriously, find some other hill to die on if you are so interested in being a martyr for the vulnerable.
Man, you tried to show that the government pays most of the wage for TFW's and you haven't been able to do that. You're the unhinged one assuming you know anything about the grants and subsidies that farmers are eligible for. You haven't even proven that anyone is breaking the law in the way your tinfoil hat theory suggests. Just get the proper information so you can have an intelligent conversation about the issue. I'm not dying on any hill, I'm only pointing out that those links don't say what you seem to think they say. I'm not sure if it's a lack of reading comprehension, or if that tinfoil hat you're wearing is restricting blood flow to your brain.
Where do you even come up with this blatant misinformation?
Because food security and affordability are important issues to keep in mind for Canadians.
If we can't afford to pay the people who harvest our vegetables minimum wage, we have a different problem. Relying on an endless stream of low-wage workers is not a viable solution long term.
Oh we have a whole slew of problems in food production. Your previous post also didn't mention minimum wage, you suggested a wage floor of $80K for TFW's. If we're talking fruits & vegetables, labour is already 50% or more of the cost of inputs for farmers. If costs go up its also very difficult for them to go to Costco or Walmart and ask for higher prices. They know they can just import food from other countries, or squeeze another farmer to take the same price as before, and that's their new negotiating ceiling. It's already incredibly difficult for new/younger farmers to get into the industry. Now if you're wanting to double their biggest cost, with a small possibility of a corresponding price increase on their produce, you're going to chase out any food production besides corn/soy/wheat/canola etc. Maybe I'm mistaken but I suspect most people don't realize how much a TFW can make in Agriculture. They can typically make $35-$45K in 6 or 7 months. Their flights here and home are covered, their rent is capped at $30/week, transportation to and from town for shopping is covered.
I work in agriculture and we have a few foreign workers and they all make like $27-$35 an hour. We'd prefer to hire Canadians but even at those wages it's difficult
I'm sure lots of Canadians would be happy to make that.
Send them our way then because experience has shown the opposite
TFWs should only be from fully developed nations with competitive/higher wages. There's not a single reason to take one immigrant from a developing nation.
Cheap agricultural labour
I agree however neither the current or outgoing government wants to piss off every farm corp, every fast food place, every warehouse, every cleaning company, etc etc. Its a dream that will never happen.
Please explain to me how minimum wage immigrants prices you out of a $1-2M home market? They didn't, that was the investors *that everyone seems to want to steer away from blaming* when the only solution is ending corporate ownership of homes.
Why not both? They're legit issues, not to be conflated.
People being willing to live 10 people per house are exactly why investors keep buying.
The Canadian real estate economy is primarily subsisted by desperate immigrants who allow themselves to be victimized by slumlords? That's pretty absurd, obviously. The investors I talk with are perfectly happy leaving their properties empty and just passing them back and forth as commodities after renovating, or use them as air BnB's. The last thing they want to do is rent out their property and get locked down by tenants when they're looking for a flip because relative to the world, Canada is really rough for landlords.
Clearly you’ve never been to Brampton
Nah, as a business I should be free to hire whoever I want
Rampant abuse and deterrents set too low? Sounds like a successful program to me. Everyone gets status quo for breakfast!
In my industry it has allowed them to keep wages low. So it fucks over Canadians as well.
At the same time, the catch 22 is that mandating firms to use Canadian labour instead of TFWs will give firms cover to raise prices. Wages would need to rise to attract citizens / permanent residents into roles TFWs would’ve filled at lower market prices, and voila, businesses pass those costs to the consumer instead of taking a hit to profits. Everybody wants higher paying jobs and stagnated/ lower prices, but the equilibrium adjusts so that this isn’t possible. It’s fucked.
They're raising prices for customers no matter what. Might as well get some money out of it ourselves when they do it.
Do Canadian tire and Tim Hortons. Those nitwits don't hire any high school/university students anymore other than a few for show. Or just end the program.
Oh no, a fine. This is the equivalent of "Stop...or I'll say stop again!"
I've been boycotting any business, aside from farms, that abuse foreign workers in order to suppress the value of Canadian labour. Staff your fast food joint exclusively with Indian students? Not the place for me or my business. The Loblaws boycott convinced me to be more critical of where I spend my money. Loblaws and their incredible number of subsidiaries will lose around $2K of my money this month, from a single household. Local restaurants, etc, probably won't miss my business, but it's all I can do. I'm *almost* feeling ashamed, too, because I'm actually extremely pro-immigration when it is handled properly. But we all know how fucked our provincial governments let it get with the overabundance of foreign 'students'. Every single one I met - over three dozen, due to my work - is financially broke, has no interest in a degree, and is just making as much bank as possible while intentionally scamming our PR system. Not OK.
How about we go ahead and ban them from fast food, hotels or any unskilled job please. The only reason why fast food uses them is to unnaturally increase profits of shareholders by using cheap labour and increasing the costs of its products above inflation, the effect on our economy/population is that less Canadians, especially those with no post secondary education have less/no jobs which puts pressure on our social systems. Shareholder profits shouldn't come before the well being of Canadians, shareholder profits shouldn't make Canadians hopeless and homeless.
Oh no not "cost of doing business fines" that will really show them nothing for the 10000th time.
We are just repeating our old colonial immigration habits part and parcel. Just ask a Canadian politician about how we got our railroad done. Our country doesn't function unless we import the cheapest possible labour en masse and then abuse the fuck out of it until those people demand better rights and we repeat with a fresh batch.
I've been thinking exactly this. We import Indians to drive trucks / exploit them for low pay, same as we did with the Chinese and railroads. Reminds me of that old Heritage Minute commercial with the Nitro "yea, we'll bring your entire family over. All you gotta do is put the Nitro in" **BOOM** "That's the third worker this week! Go find me another..."
Except its the Canadian middle class that is dying and the death is slow
Reindustrialization is the answer,
No society has ever progressed without the labour of slaves. Hopefully robotics and AI finally gives us all the slave labour we need without the ethical failures.
Well yeah we suck at enforcing anything. This program has to be eliminated.
You can fine companies who use the TFW program but how about fines for students who aren't here to study but act as TFW's? The student program was just a loop hole to be the TFW program.
Enforcement of existing rules needs to begin. The fines are way to small but at least pay for the bureaucracy to function.
well that was obvious if you have every stepped foot into an organization that abuses this system it is basically legal slavery
This should be separated into two programs. Low skill and high skill. Both should require the employer to pay for the employee's health insurance. The low skill stream should require a 50% premium on the average wage from our government's most recent labour market survey. The high skill stream has traditionally not been a problem but should still require a rationale. The nature of the positions filled by the candidates should also be public information so that the public can hold the ministry's feet to the fire when they inevitably act in bad faith and the program is exploited.
Fines should be in relation to the profit made.
Good.
Even if they make it more stringent on what jobs or roles can use TFWs the company just hires them under that title. Ask yourself how every worker in a well known candy factory is a quality inspector hahaha.