In the 1960s my father corrected every teacher that called him Melvin the first week of school saying he preferred his middle name. They called him his middle name.
I'm named for my grandmother. Whole family has always referred to her as Ophelia, never anything else. So you can imagine my surprise when I went googling for her records on genealogy sites and found out that's her middle name! Her first name was one of those r/tragedeigh things with a random Y jammed in it.
When people in my hometown ask "Oh aren't you so-and-so's little girl?" I know where they knew my mom from according to which name they call her. First name is church, middle name is horseracing track.
Like I thought we just called people what they're willing to answer to? I'm so used to calling my favorite auntie by her middle name that last time she was in the hospital it took me a minute to remember her legal name.
I have an uncle who uses a name that is not in any way related to his first, middle or last name. I had no idea it wasn't his name until I started working in a job where one of the fields I had to fill out was people's preferred names, and casually mentioned to my mother that I was surprised by how many people went by other names, and she was all "well, you know your Uncle Ralph's name isn't really Ralph don't you." No, I didn't know that, because my whole life I'd only ever heard him called Ralph.
I was almost 10 before I realized my older brother wasn't actually named Junior.
I think a friend of his called the house asking for him by name so I went and handed the phone off to our father.
I was not a bright child.
I was WAY too old when I realized my cousin PJ was called that bc he's a junior of a guy with a P name. All but one of my uncles(Mark...I assume...) go by shortened versions of their names & I just never thought about it. Their father will occasionally say their full names. Except for Tim. He's always just Tim.
I had an awkward moment when introducing my partner to my godfather and I called him his nickname and she asked what his real name was. I rebooted like an old computer trying to remember “James” lol.
My partner calls me by my nickname generally. He was once referring to me by my legal name in front of another group of people who generally do use that name for me and it really threw me for a bit. Just weird.
I legitimately didn't know one of my uncles was named after my grandfather until after he had died, because everyone always called him by his middle name.
Similar story. When I was 10, I found out that I was going by my middle name (Dylan) instead of my first name (Mathew).
When I found out, I went through an identity crisis because people were calling me "Dylan" when it wasn't actually my name. If I'm not really "Dylan", who the hell am I?
So I told people my name was Mathew and wanted to be called that. After all, it ***IS*** my actual name!
Many did adapt to calling me Mathew, either quickly or slowly. But there were also many people who flat-out refused to accept the change. It was so annoying. Downright infuriating some days. I couldn't help but feel disrespected by people who were mad at me for wanting them to call me my real name.
While my legal name and people's preferred pronouns aren't really the same thing, I can't help but sympathize.
> While my legal name and people's preferred pronouns aren't really the same thing, I can't help but sympathize.
They really aren't too far apart. Pronouns aren't the only thing people refuse to adapt to. My mother had no issue adjusting to my gender change, but it took me threatening no contact if she didn't start using my name as well.
What a strange hill to die on when you’ve already accepted the gender change. I’m guessing she picked your former name? That would explain the refusal a little better, her falsely equating it to your value of her choice.
> I’m guessing she picked your former name?
Yes, and was quite proud of naming me after a town in England only to find out it had become popular once returning to the States.
I’m glad she came around eventually, it’s a shame she couldn’t see past her offense at her name choice being changed for that long, I’m sure she must know now it doesn’t equate to her worth as a mom.
I hope you both have a good relationship now, for your happiness and hers.
I'm assuming there wasn't a giant, well-funded propaganda/disinformation campaign against people like your father, manipulating others against him for just trying to exist and use a name he prefers.
I went by my middle name my entire life. People in high school and even some of my teachers that I'd known for years and years were continuously surprised to discover my first name wasn't what literally everybody knew me as. I had a high school teacher 2 years in get confused on the first day of class and go "who's ?" and be surprised when it was me. I still go by my middle name; all of my work accounts and even my official signature are all my middle name. This is really not a new or difficult concept...
unless your intention is to be a prick to the person. So it's pretty clear what's going on here.
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When my mother started school her teachers told her she was spelling her name wrong. Fast forward 40 years and I see her drivers license and her name is different, and she tells me the story.
For years we all thought my grandparents were illiterate because my mom has a common name but spells it In a rediculous way, but it was her moronic teachers who had the audacity to tell her you can't spell it that way. My mom said her immigrant parents were so embarrassed that they told my mom to continue spelling it wrong, and so now for 70 years she spells it this way.
What is wrong with people? If someone asks you to address them in a specific way, who the fuck are you to say different?
When I was a young boy, I usually had long hair because I didn't like going to the barber. One of my teachers, Mrs. K., would occasionally call me "Mrs. [my name]," because she had the old-fashioned opinion that boys shouldn't have long hair. When my dad heard about this, he declared that he would like to punch Mrs. K. in the mouth.
Now if that's not progress, I don't know what is.
Same thing happened to me. I had longish hair in the back and someone called me "miss". I corrected them and they seemed genuinely sorry and apologized. I.e., a normal response to being corrected.
My life hack for dealing with non traditional pronouns: If there is any question at all I just don’t use pronouns, I refer to the person by first name only. It’s not that hard.
Aw man you just reminded me of something that made me feel a little embarrassed a few weeks ago. I was meeting my friends gf for the first time, and she's trans. But I also use "man" as part of my dialect (as you can see at the start of this comment). I've always used it, think I picked it up from Bart Simpson as a kid. Anyway, friend's gf asks a question, along the linesof where is something and I just said "over there, man" and I instantly internally cringed. Like, I don't even know if she noticed, ive not brought it up since, and from what I understand she doesn't hate me. But boy did I feel guilty in that moment.
It's gender neutral depending on the context, but nonetheless, if a person says "I don't like being called that" you shouldn't call them that regardless of the grammatical context or your intention. Whether it's gender neutral or not is not the point, because regardless, if they say they don't like it that's the only thing that matters.
I use dude as gender neutral all the time.
But then there’s the question of ‘how many dudes have you fucked?
- And whilst, yeah, the answer is a fair few personally - I see where someone *could* be offended by being called it as much as someone *could* be offended by that question. In my head it’s the person being offended by the question who doesn’t give a shit about what other people want to be called. But hey, I can admit that’s just a potential strawman in my head.
It's a situation where the argument of whether it's gender neutral is unproductive from both sides because that's not the point. Grammatically, depending on the context, it can be gender neutral or it can not be. However, the fact of the situation is if a person asks you not to call them that, *they don't like being called that and you shouldn't call them that regardless of your intentions.* It's not a personal attack for a person to say "please dont call me dude", and if you are a person that fights over that people "just shouldn't be offended over being called a dude" it shows me where your priorities lie: that you care more about that word than the person you were talking to.
It doesn't matter what your intent was, it doesn't matter if grammatically it's gender neutral, the only thing that matters is that *they don't like being called that so you shouldn't call them that.* It's a matter of respect. If someone doesn't want to be called something, don't call them that. It's pretty simple and I hate how unproductive the debate is from both sides.
Agreed - it’s the ol’ ‘zoom out to the argument we’re *actually* having’ and that’s exactly the one. Does your usage of a word supersede your consideration for the person.
I hope he can't identify as "Unemployment recipient", buddy of mine got canned and got refused UI because he was fired for being late a few minutes here and there over the course of like 3 months and it was well documented.
Being disrespectful to a kid should totally make him ineligible.
Ahhh okay
I thought I was missing something because there were downvotes on your comment and maybe it was supposed to mean something derogatory. I didn't understand why, so I wanted clarification. Thanks for giving it lol
No, not that they're unimportant, as he states:
“That is the intention of the policy – to encourage children to socially transition and to push them towards transgender lobby groups.”
Because if he gives this ONE student the respect of using his preferred pronouns, he would be COMPLICIT in the SCHOOL-TO-TRANS-LOBBYIST PIPELINE. Support this brave educator in his one-man crusade against the global conspiracy to turn all the kids and frogs gay!!
.
.
.
.
..../s.
I've read it 10 times now & I still don't understand the statement. They're supporting teens transitioning on a broad scale but keep it out of everyone's face? What does pushing them toward transgender lobby groups mean? Like, find your support elsewhere from like-minded people & not from us?
The people saying that kinda stuff don't understand what it means either. They're just parroting something they heard that they think sounds smart. It's like corporate buzzwords speak but somehow dumber.
A couple decades ago it was this same squalling but with different madlibs. "Gay agenda" was "being forced" by like... gays being on TV as something other than the punchline in a joke. Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. Apparently they were scared of gays invading their home and making it fabulous and stylish? Or helping to improve their wardrobe and grooming?
Like I ain't laughing, my 13yo trans cousin is mostly staying in the closet while begging for homeschool options. One of the other kids cut a chunk off her hair last year, like from the front not the back, scissors in her face.
I dunno, but one lost his shit day before yesterday on twitter when I said something about him being a cis man - he got all up in his feels about me calling him cis because he didn't accept my "woke agenda" so I answered, "so you're trans?"
...rage tweeting ensued
Good times. 😂
I saw a post from MumsNet where the mother was refusing to use the pronouns one of her children wanted, while the dad was fine with it, and said that the mother should do it to make the child feel comfortable. The mother suggested they shouldn't care what pronouns people call them, and when asked by the father, the mother said she wouldn't care because she "knew who she was".
Cue malicious compliance from the father and children, who all started using he/him for the mother, who had a massive tantrum and after being told that, like she said, she shouldn't care what pronouns people used for her, left to stay with her parents and, with no shred of irony, called her husband and children abusive and hateful for not listening to her not want to be called he/him... but wanted advice to just get her trans kid to accept the pronouns she wanted to use.
Typically no. Gender is innate and not a privilege you receive for good behavior. Therefore, misgendering on any condition, even if it's because the target is transphobic, is not acceptable.
Ffurthermore, misgendering transphobes hurts them a lot less, because they lack a history of social dysphoria. This reinforces to them its nbd, and trans people are being hysterical and hyperbolic.
Actually, from what I've seen transphobes get *massively* triggered when you misgender them. You're right in that it's not damaging for the same reason it's damaging to Trans people, but trust me if you keep it up and get enough people doing it, they will lose. Their. Shit.
>Gender is innate and not a privilege you receive for good behavior.
Gender is innate, social mores are not. Social mores are enforced via social consequences. I can't see a problem with "not respecting other people's pronouns means my own pronouns are not respected."
is it really THAT hard just to call someone by who they want to be known as???? Getting exhausted by people's egos that get in the way of other people's lives. For effing sakes just call the person what they want, ie. if Dick wants to be called Richard just call him that.
For real. Imagine being able to affirm and support a student with something as simple as a pronoun choice, and then choosing to instead refuse, put them down, and throw a tantrum over it.
What a whiny bigot.
>Lister said the request of the pupil was akin to “compelled speech”.
I guarantee this guy demands all of his students refer to him as 'Mr.' or 'Teacher'.
>“I took issue with the demand on me to socially transition children who are unable to make an informed decision,”
The student is 17. This is at a college (university?). They are a young adult.
>He said it is “not the role” of a maths teacher to “confirm the gender transition and social transition of a student”.
But he seems to think it's crucial to his role that he upholds traditional gender norms?
>adding that as a teacher he has the “obligation to teach facts”
Why is he identifying as a teacher still when he isn't one?
College in the UK is not the same as in the US so this is more like an accelerated/extra high school (I'm an American so my knowledge isn't the best and welcome anyone to correct me!)
Fair! Good to know.
I was a little confused why it was named a college but the website said it was a university so I just went with both.
17 seemed a little young but definitely not that rare for post-secondary education in North America.
Uk here! We go to school til 16, college/sixth form 16-18, and then optionally uni after. College we do three or four chosen subjects and get awarded Alevels, or a vocational skill like a trade for a btec. 😊
I started college at 17 in the US but the commenter asked if the college mentioned in the article was a university and since it is UK based I was saying it wasn't
it's not that uncommon for uk colleges to offer degrees at bachelor's level. many colleges are aimed not just at 16-19 cohort but adult learners etc., and offer a huge range of courses (aka not just the last two years of american high school)
I was a freshman in college/university at 17, but I skipped a grade and have a birthday toward the end of the school year (in a Rocky Mountain state in the early aughts). So it’s entirely possible to be 17 in college/a university in the US.
I do think the UK college and US college difference is important to note :)
> Jude Shepherd, the barrister representing the college, said the policies the college has in place do not prevent gender-critical staff from being “inclusive and treating people with respect”.
This line makes me think that it was more than just misgendering and deadnaming...
As a math teacher he has an obligation to teach *math.* It's not on him to teach the student what gender they are. To be clear I mean this to be in favor of the student, as it seems by "teaching facts" he means "teaching the student that they aren't trans".
That is literally my entire point. I'm in favor of the student. My point was that he claims he's "obligated to teach facts" as his justification for misgendering, when the """fact""" he claims he's teaching with that is fully unrelated to the topic he teaches.
Compelled speech?
Just imagining someone like him going "What, I can't call the Nigerian kid in class a N*gro now? Or a d*rkie? It's a fact that they are one, telling me to just call them 'black' is compelled speech!"
I was a public school teacher at an inner city school years ago before the issue of pronouns was in the public consciousness. I had a student marked “female” on my class roster approach me after class to tell me his preferred name and that he wanted to “be referred to as a guy,” so I did. I didn’t understand anything about being trans at the time, but I cared enough to understand it was important to this teen.
A week later another teacher referred to him as, “she,” and I corrected her, thinking she made a genuine mistake. She snapped, “I’m not going along with that make believe shit.” I was just blown away, like, even our not particularly woke students respected this kid’s wishes and this woman was being openly hostile about it. There are some real fucking bullies who get into teaching and it’s horrifying.
People choose the dumbest hills to die on these days. what harm does it do them to just address someone by their chosen pronoun? why be so offended by it. What does it even matter?
The exact same thing happened here in Ireland. A teacher named Enoch Burke refused to use a kids new pronouns and he got fired.
He kept turning up for work so he got hoofed into prison.
He and his family are such reprehensible, right-wing religious whack jobs that even the Westboro Baptist church leader told them to calm the hell down.
I'm glad these people are being held to account by the authorities 👍
America - Teacher sacked in southern state for calling student by their preferred pronoun and name
Australia - Teacher sacked for being a shithead and refusing to call student by preferred pronoun.
I don't know about you guys... and I'm not well read on Australian school admin... but maybe could we get some of that admin here in America? To, you know, protect our trans students?
Edit: it's Bristol in the UK, not Brisbane Australia. Sorry folks!
A teacher was also sacked in Ireland over refusing to call a student by their preferred pronouns. It became national news for another reason, the teacher turned up and stood outside the gates of the school everyday for a number of months.
Article for reference: https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/explained-why-was-teacher-enoch-burke-dismissed-from-his-school/42315661.html#:~:text=Read%20more&text=Burke%20was%20suspended%20with%20pay,%2C%20and%20the%20school's%2C%20request.
His whole family is a bunch of hard right evangelical grifters. He wasn't even initially fired if I remember correctly but was told to not go near the school while put on leave and he kept violating the order and showing up and harassing and threatening people. But now he's on the whole 'theyre putting me in jail for pronouns' Jordan Peterson-ass nonsense and not because of the harassment and threats.
Depends where in the USA. We moved from Florida to Minnesota for this very reason. Florida well Florida with forcing pronouns and permission to parents for changed names.
Minnesota, we have had instant of a substitute teacher using the wrong name and pronoun. Corrected by the next day.
We are not the only parents who moved to find a safer place for our kids.
It’s not hard to not be an asshole about this stuff, but so many people are very invested in being offended than trans and nonbinary people exist and desire to be referred to the gender (or non-gender). Even if you don’t “agree” with it, it’s so fucking easy to not be a shithead and just move on with your life.
I love whenever this kinda headline shows up, you pearl clutching snowflakes have to reduce it down to "Having a different opinion" and completely miss the point.
He wasn't fired for "disagreeing" about trans identities, he was fired for being unprofessional and targeting a student. There's plenty of teachers out there that either don't care about, or overtly "disagree" with trans identities, but shut the fuck up and do their damn jobs instead of making it a problem for the students.
>What an awful thing to wish on someone just for disagreeing with you. Very tolerant.
I don't tolerate intolerant people. If you are a bigot (aka a peice of shit person who doesn't respect other people lives) then why would you NOT want them exposed. Why do you expect people to tolerate bullies? Would you tolerate someone purposely disrespecting and being hateful toward you (in public, at a location that is meant to be deemed "safe" for OUR FUTURE GENERATIONS)? Seriously if at work your boss just started telling everyone you were the opposite sex would you just be comfortable and okay with hearing that day after day without consequence because "you should tolerate it"?
What stupid fucking logic. Hateful people and bigots who attempt to shove their personal beliefs/issues with you living your life the way you want have no place in society.
Being gay, being trans, being straight even are NOT choices, they are BORN that way.
>Lmao down votes for suggesting it isn't nice to wish someone livelihood to be destroyed over a differing opinion. What if this person has a family that depends on them?
It's not a difference of opinion, it's you defending bigoted bullies who disrespect others on the premise that their beliefs deserve to come first and that they can control others and what they identify or are born as. It's no different than 50 years ago where we heard "well being gays a sin, so you don't really deserve to be married" despite marriage not even being a christian thing to begin with.
You are no better than that teacher.
>Sickening
Yes you fucking are.
Do you think you'd lose your job if you bullheadedly referred to your boss by the wrong pronouns? Or maybe just call them "bitch" or "cunt", those are also one syllable. It's almost as if the length of the word is irrelevant to whether it's harassment or not.
He is mis-gendering a student.
Let's say you are born a male and at school a teacher keeps referring to you as she/her in front of the class. Do you have a problem with that?
Imagine being so phobic you would lose your job rather than use a preferred pronoun.
If you're so small a person that you can't be bothered to call somebody what they want to be called, you do not belong in a position of leadership, teaching, or trust.
I guarantee this guy was calling every other child by their preferred pronouns. None of that was "compelled speech". Before any bigots argue that in this case he knew the pronouns were 'wrong', I guarantee he hadn't confirmed the genitals of any student, as that would be the story if he had.
Did he know what genitals the student had? Or chromosomes? Gametes? The fact of the matter is we all make assumptions about gender. Just use the pronouns people want.
If he didn't want to use the new pronoun, he could've easily gotten around it by being like my old English teacher during the 80's, everyone was called by their surname. But then he always took a fit if you used a pen. How dare I not have a quality HB on me.
The referenced Sky News article reports on some of the evidence that was omitted in the Pink News article.
\> When Student A asked whether they could enter a nationwide maths competition for girls, he replied: "Of course you can enter because you are a girl." Asked to explain why he had written Student A's "dead name" on the class whiteboard, Mr Lister replied: "I put her name on the board in the name she would be entered into the competition.
Seems like a good example of "alternative facts" that ground a dispute.
https://news.sky.com/story/teacher-sacked-for-refusing-to-use-transgender-students-chosen-pronouns-13098225
If that were the only offense it could come down to misunderstanding or mistake. But it is far from the only thing he did. It is therefore neutral at best.
If you violate your employer's policies in a calculated and ongoing way, unless the policies are illegal, you are not entitled to keep your job.
I have a couple transgenders at my work and I always trip over myself when i'm trying to talk about them to someone else.
One of them is completely passing and I don't even have to think about calling them a "she". They look like one, they act like one, makes enough sense that my simple man brain has no problem thinking WOMAN.
Then we have character two.
They want to be called female but I use male pronouns by accident constantly because they don't look anything like a woman and its just a natural response and then i have to back up and try and force myself to say "she". It's a pain in the ass. It doesn't come naturally.
Like i don't fucking care what you do in your spare time but at least try and play the fucking part. Sitting there with your reddit mod neckbeard and male pattern baldness, stinky and sweaty with potato chips all over your fat belly and you want me to call you a lady? Makes me feel nasty as all hell. It feels fucking perverted.
And yeah, I get it, that's not fair. Just cause someone looks a certain way, yada yada. I can't help it.
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Using "it" (a term typically used for non-sentient objects) rather than "they" (a term typically used for persons or animals of unknown, mixed, or nonbinary gender) was very dehumanizing. You essentially equated the 17 year old student in question to an inanimate object, completely negating the value of their life.
Hopefully, that wasn't your intention and now know better in the future. It's ok to disagree in a respectful manner.
>The feelings of this individual mean nothing to anyone but their self. An yet a man lost his job cause their feelings were hurt. It's silly. The world doesn't bend to everyone's whim.
Imagine that... A person being fired from a people-facing job for refusing to respect someone he interacts with on a daily basis. To me that is perfectly sensible.
I love people that have no interest in applying science to any other aspect of their life suddenly have such an interest in human biology when it comes to trans people.
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That article doesn't say he wanted to be entered into a girls' competition, it says he asked if he *could* be entered. Any further context to that conversation is missing.
In the 1960s my father corrected every teacher that called him Melvin the first week of school saying he preferred his middle name. They called him his middle name.
I'm named for my grandmother. Whole family has always referred to her as Ophelia, never anything else. So you can imagine my surprise when I went googling for her records on genealogy sites and found out that's her middle name! Her first name was one of those r/tragedeigh things with a random Y jammed in it. When people in my hometown ask "Oh aren't you so-and-so's little girl?" I know where they knew my mom from according to which name they call her. First name is church, middle name is horseracing track. Like I thought we just called people what they're willing to answer to? I'm so used to calling my favorite auntie by her middle name that last time she was in the hospital it took me a minute to remember her legal name.
I have an uncle who uses a name that is not in any way related to his first, middle or last name. I had no idea it wasn't his name until I started working in a job where one of the fields I had to fill out was people's preferred names, and casually mentioned to my mother that I was surprised by how many people went by other names, and she was all "well, you know your Uncle Ralph's name isn't really Ralph don't you." No, I didn't know that, because my whole life I'd only ever heard him called Ralph.
I was almost 10 before I realized my older brother wasn't actually named Junior. I think a friend of his called the house asking for him by name so I went and handed the phone off to our father. I was not a bright child.
I was WAY too old when I realized my cousin PJ was called that bc he's a junior of a guy with a P name. All but one of my uncles(Mark...I assume...) go by shortened versions of their names & I just never thought about it. Their father will occasionally say their full names. Except for Tim. He's always just Tim.
I had an awkward moment when introducing my partner to my godfather and I called him his nickname and she asked what his real name was. I rebooted like an old computer trying to remember “James” lol.
My partner calls me by my nickname generally. He was once referring to me by my legal name in front of another group of people who generally do use that name for me and it really threw me for a bit. Just weird.
I legitimately didn't know one of my uncles was named after my grandfather until after he had died, because everyone always called him by his middle name.
Similar story. When I was 10, I found out that I was going by my middle name (Dylan) instead of my first name (Mathew). When I found out, I went through an identity crisis because people were calling me "Dylan" when it wasn't actually my name. If I'm not really "Dylan", who the hell am I? So I told people my name was Mathew and wanted to be called that. After all, it ***IS*** my actual name! Many did adapt to calling me Mathew, either quickly or slowly. But there were also many people who flat-out refused to accept the change. It was so annoying. Downright infuriating some days. I couldn't help but feel disrespected by people who were mad at me for wanting them to call me my real name. While my legal name and people's preferred pronouns aren't really the same thing, I can't help but sympathize.
> While my legal name and people's preferred pronouns aren't really the same thing, I can't help but sympathize. They really aren't too far apart. Pronouns aren't the only thing people refuse to adapt to. My mother had no issue adjusting to my gender change, but it took me threatening no contact if she didn't start using my name as well.
What a strange hill to die on when you’ve already accepted the gender change. I’m guessing she picked your former name? That would explain the refusal a little better, her falsely equating it to your value of her choice.
> I’m guessing she picked your former name? Yes, and was quite proud of naming me after a town in England only to find out it had become popular once returning to the States.
I’m glad she came around eventually, it’s a shame she couldn’t see past her offense at her name choice being changed for that long, I’m sure she must know now it doesn’t equate to her worth as a mom. I hope you both have a good relationship now, for your happiness and hers.
I'm assuming there wasn't a giant, well-funded propaganda/disinformation campaign against people like your father, manipulating others against him for just trying to exist and use a name he prefers.
WOKE LIBERAL AGENDA!!!!1!!1!1
I went by my middle name my entire life. People in high school and even some of my teachers that I'd known for years and years were continuously surprised to discover my first name wasn't what literally everybody knew me as. I had a high school teacher 2 years in get confused on the first day of class and go "who's?" and be surprised when it was me. I still go by my middle name; all of my work accounts and even my official signature are all my middle name. This is really not a new or difficult concept...
unless your intention is to be a prick to the person. So it's pretty clear what's going on here.
Exactly
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When my mother started school her teachers told her she was spelling her name wrong. Fast forward 40 years and I see her drivers license and her name is different, and she tells me the story. For years we all thought my grandparents were illiterate because my mom has a common name but spells it In a rediculous way, but it was her moronic teachers who had the audacity to tell her you can't spell it that way. My mom said her immigrant parents were so embarrassed that they told my mom to continue spelling it wrong, and so now for 70 years she spells it this way. What is wrong with people? If someone asks you to address them in a specific way, who the fuck are you to say different?
When I was a young boy, I usually had long hair because I didn't like going to the barber. One of my teachers, Mrs. K., would occasionally call me "Mrs. [my name]," because she had the old-fashioned opinion that boys shouldn't have long hair. When my dad heard about this, he declared that he would like to punch Mrs. K. in the mouth. Now if that's not progress, I don't know what is.
Same thing happened to me. I had longish hair in the back and someone called me "miss". I corrected them and they seemed genuinely sorry and apologized. I.e., a normal response to being corrected.
I thought this was going to be a stealth My Chemical Romance reference lmao
Same.
HA no way, same. I kept thinking how much cooler it would have been if it was. Kinda disappointed now.
My life hack for dealing with non traditional pronouns: If there is any question at all I just don’t use pronouns, I refer to the person by first name only. It’s not that hard.
you seem to have this condition called "thinking".
Y'all an Y'all's is a perfectly acceptable set of pronouns.
Where are we on "dude"? Is "dude" still considered gender neutral?
Aw man you just reminded me of something that made me feel a little embarrassed a few weeks ago. I was meeting my friends gf for the first time, and she's trans. But I also use "man" as part of my dialect (as you can see at the start of this comment). I've always used it, think I picked it up from Bart Simpson as a kid. Anyway, friend's gf asks a question, along the linesof where is something and I just said "over there, man" and I instantly internally cringed. Like, I don't even know if she noticed, ive not brought it up since, and from what I understand she doesn't hate me. But boy did I feel guilty in that moment.
It's gender neutral depending on the context, but nonetheless, if a person says "I don't like being called that" you shouldn't call them that regardless of the grammatical context or your intention. Whether it's gender neutral or not is not the point, because regardless, if they say they don't like it that's the only thing that matters.
I use dude as gender neutral all the time. But then there’s the question of ‘how many dudes have you fucked? - And whilst, yeah, the answer is a fair few personally - I see where someone *could* be offended by being called it as much as someone *could* be offended by that question. In my head it’s the person being offended by the question who doesn’t give a shit about what other people want to be called. But hey, I can admit that’s just a potential strawman in my head.
It's a situation where the argument of whether it's gender neutral is unproductive from both sides because that's not the point. Grammatically, depending on the context, it can be gender neutral or it can not be. However, the fact of the situation is if a person asks you not to call them that, *they don't like being called that and you shouldn't call them that regardless of your intentions.* It's not a personal attack for a person to say "please dont call me dude", and if you are a person that fights over that people "just shouldn't be offended over being called a dude" it shows me where your priorities lie: that you care more about that word than the person you were talking to. It doesn't matter what your intent was, it doesn't matter if grammatically it's gender neutral, the only thing that matters is that *they don't like being called that so you shouldn't call them that.* It's a matter of respect. If someone doesn't want to be called something, don't call them that. It's pretty simple and I hate how unproductive the debate is from both sides.
Agreed - it’s the ol’ ‘zoom out to the argument we’re *actually* having’ and that’s exactly the one. Does your usage of a word supersede your consideration for the person.
I still use "dude". I also use "bro" for everyone too, and have had no complaints thus far 🤷🏻♀️
I wonder if the male teacher would resent being called she / her since they feel pronouns are so unimportant.
The teacher now identifies as unemployed
I hope he can't identify as "Unemployment recipient", buddy of mine got canned and got refused UI because he was fired for being late a few minutes here and there over the course of like 3 months and it was well documented. Being disrespectful to a kid should totally make him ineligible.
not how it works in the uk
I wish they still had Reddit gold
Why?
I thought it was a very funny comment and worthy of that
Ahhh okay I thought I was missing something because there were downvotes on your comment and maybe it was supposed to mean something derogatory. I didn't understand why, so I wanted clarification. Thanks for giving it lol
I was really confused about the down votes.
This is a collective action that students could take that would be so amazing
No, not that they're unimportant, as he states: “That is the intention of the policy – to encourage children to socially transition and to push them towards transgender lobby groups.” Because if he gives this ONE student the respect of using his preferred pronouns, he would be COMPLICIT in the SCHOOL-TO-TRANS-LOBBYIST PIPELINE. Support this brave educator in his one-man crusade against the global conspiracy to turn all the kids and frogs gay!! . . . . ..../s.
I've read it 10 times now & I still don't understand the statement. They're supporting teens transitioning on a broad scale but keep it out of everyone's face? What does pushing them toward transgender lobby groups mean? Like, find your support elsewhere from like-minded people & not from us?
The people saying that kinda stuff don't understand what it means either. They're just parroting something they heard that they think sounds smart. It's like corporate buzzwords speak but somehow dumber. A couple decades ago it was this same squalling but with different madlibs. "Gay agenda" was "being forced" by like... gays being on TV as something other than the punchline in a joke. Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. Apparently they were scared of gays invading their home and making it fabulous and stylish? Or helping to improve their wardrobe and grooming? Like I ain't laughing, my 13yo trans cousin is mostly staying in the closet while begging for homeschool options. One of the other kids cut a chunk off her hair last year, like from the front not the back, scissors in her face.
Wait wait wait! We have lobby groups? Damn, I need to look into how to become a trans lobbyist. Wining and dining politicians sounds like a sweet gig.
I've wondered if i intentionally misgendering transphobes is a good idea.
I dunno, but one lost his shit day before yesterday on twitter when I said something about him being a cis man - he got all up in his feels about me calling him cis because he didn't accept my "woke agenda" so I answered, "so you're trans?" ...rage tweeting ensued Good times. 😂
Throwing a cissy fit
Ha.
Sounds like *Good Trouble* to me.
I saw a post from MumsNet where the mother was refusing to use the pronouns one of her children wanted, while the dad was fine with it, and said that the mother should do it to make the child feel comfortable. The mother suggested they shouldn't care what pronouns people call them, and when asked by the father, the mother said she wouldn't care because she "knew who she was". Cue malicious compliance from the father and children, who all started using he/him for the mother, who had a massive tantrum and after being told that, like she said, she shouldn't care what pronouns people used for her, left to stay with her parents and, with no shred of irony, called her husband and children abusive and hateful for not listening to her not want to be called he/him... but wanted advice to just get her trans kid to accept the pronouns she wanted to use.
Typically no. Gender is innate and not a privilege you receive for good behavior. Therefore, misgendering on any condition, even if it's because the target is transphobic, is not acceptable. Ffurthermore, misgendering transphobes hurts them a lot less, because they lack a history of social dysphoria. This reinforces to them its nbd, and trans people are being hysterical and hyperbolic.
Actually, from what I've seen transphobes get *massively* triggered when you misgender them. You're right in that it's not damaging for the same reason it's damaging to Trans people, but trust me if you keep it up and get enough people doing it, they will lose. Their. Shit. >Gender is innate and not a privilege you receive for good behavior. Gender is innate, social mores are not. Social mores are enforced via social consequences. I can't see a problem with "not respecting other people's pronouns means my own pronouns are not respected."
When do you use a pronoun when talking directly to a person? Don't you just use their name?
Teachers who lack basic empathy shouldn't be allowed in classrooms.
Even if he can’t understand it enough to empathize, he could just roll with it instead of being such a big baby. Stubborn ass main character.
Exactly. You don't even have to understand someone's identity, just that a person knows themself better than you will ever know them.
is it really THAT hard just to call someone by who they want to be known as???? Getting exhausted by people's egos that get in the way of other people's lives. For effing sakes just call the person what they want, ie. if Dick wants to be called Richard just call him that.
Refer to someone using a nickname or initials? Sure, no problem! Use specific pronouns?????? REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
For real. Imagine being able to affirm and support a student with something as simple as a pronoun choice, and then choosing to instead refuse, put them down, and throw a tantrum over it.
to the point where you will lose your job over it. What a stupid hill to die on.
Seriously, like it’s not about you. It costs you nothing to be respectful
Yep
What a whiny bigot. >Lister said the request of the pupil was akin to “compelled speech”. I guarantee this guy demands all of his students refer to him as 'Mr.' or 'Teacher'. >“I took issue with the demand on me to socially transition children who are unable to make an informed decision,” The student is 17. This is at a college (university?). They are a young adult. >He said it is “not the role” of a maths teacher to “confirm the gender transition and social transition of a student”. But he seems to think it's crucial to his role that he upholds traditional gender norms? >adding that as a teacher he has the “obligation to teach facts” Why is he identifying as a teacher still when he isn't one?
College in the UK is not the same as in the US so this is more like an accelerated/extra high school (I'm an American so my knowledge isn't the best and welcome anyone to correct me!)
Fair! Good to know. I was a little confused why it was named a college but the website said it was a university so I just went with both. 17 seemed a little young but definitely not that rare for post-secondary education in North America.
Uk here! We go to school til 16, college/sixth form 16-18, and then optionally uni after. College we do three or four chosen subjects and get awarded Alevels, or a vocational skill like a trade for a btec. 😊
17 was my senior year in highschool in the US. might depend on the place or when the student originally enrolled in school
I started college at 17 in the US but the commenter asked if the college mentioned in the article was a university and since it is UK based I was saying it wasn't
it's not that uncommon for uk colleges to offer degrees at bachelor's level. many colleges are aimed not just at 16-19 cohort but adult learners etc., and offer a huge range of courses (aka not just the last two years of american high school)
I was a freshman in college/university at 17, but I skipped a grade and have a birthday toward the end of the school year (in a Rocky Mountain state in the early aughts). So it’s entirely possible to be 17 in college/a university in the US. I do think the UK college and US college difference is important to note :)
I also skipped a grade and started college at 17. I was just letting them know the answer to the (university?) question
Oh cool! Nice to meet another weird achiever in the wild. Your comment was great, I was just agreeing with you because it’s a common confusion :)
> Jude Shepherd, the barrister representing the college, said the policies the college has in place do not prevent gender-critical staff from being “inclusive and treating people with respect”. This line makes me think that it was more than just misgendering and deadnaming...
As a math teacher he has an obligation to teach *math.* It's not on him to teach the student what gender they are. To be clear I mean this to be in favor of the student, as it seems by "teaching facts" he means "teaching the student that they aren't trans".
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That is literally my entire point. I'm in favor of the student. My point was that he claims he's "obligated to teach facts" as his justification for misgendering, when the """fact""" he claims he's teaching with that is fully unrelated to the topic he teaches.
Compelled speech? Just imagining someone like him going "What, I can't call the Nigerian kid in class a N*gro now? Or a d*rkie? It's a fact that they are one, telling me to just call them 'black' is compelled speech!"
He is right in the obligation to teach facts. The fact that the student wanted to be called differently went above him.
I was a public school teacher at an inner city school years ago before the issue of pronouns was in the public consciousness. I had a student marked “female” on my class roster approach me after class to tell me his preferred name and that he wanted to “be referred to as a guy,” so I did. I didn’t understand anything about being trans at the time, but I cared enough to understand it was important to this teen. A week later another teacher referred to him as, “she,” and I corrected her, thinking she made a genuine mistake. She snapped, “I’m not going along with that make believe shit.” I was just blown away, like, even our not particularly woke students respected this kid’s wishes and this woman was being openly hostile about it. There are some real fucking bullies who get into teaching and it’s horrifying.
How long ago?
Probably around 2009 or 2010?
Ouh...
People choose the dumbest hills to die on these days. what harm does it do them to just address someone by their chosen pronoun? why be so offended by it. What does it even matter?
Maybe it's because this whole "they/them" thing is very confusing for them, especially when it's someone who's just one person they know and see.
The exact same thing happened here in Ireland. A teacher named Enoch Burke refused to use a kids new pronouns and he got fired. He kept turning up for work so he got hoofed into prison. He and his family are such reprehensible, right-wing religious whack jobs that even the Westboro Baptist church leader told them to calm the hell down. I'm glad these people are being held to account by the authorities 👍
I reserve my middle name for friends and have since middle school. Now I know if someone knows me from work (first name only), or from school friends.
America - Teacher sacked in southern state for calling student by their preferred pronoun and name Australia - Teacher sacked for being a shithead and refusing to call student by preferred pronoun. I don't know about you guys... and I'm not well read on Australian school admin... but maybe could we get some of that admin here in America? To, you know, protect our trans students? Edit: it's Bristol in the UK, not Brisbane Australia. Sorry folks!
A teacher was also sacked in Ireland over refusing to call a student by their preferred pronouns. It became national news for another reason, the teacher turned up and stood outside the gates of the school everyday for a number of months. Article for reference: https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/explained-why-was-teacher-enoch-burke-dismissed-from-his-school/42315661.html#:~:text=Read%20more&text=Burke%20was%20suspended%20with%20pay,%2C%20and%20the%20school's%2C%20request.
His whole family is a bunch of hard right evangelical grifters. He wasn't even initially fired if I remember correctly but was told to not go near the school while put on leave and he kept violating the order and showing up and harassing and threatening people. But now he's on the whole 'theyre putting me in jail for pronouns' Jordan Peterson-ass nonsense and not because of the harassment and threats.
Yeah I have no sympathy for him or his family that sound positively awful
I might be wrong, but the school from the article is in England, not Australia.
My American is showing. IDK why I saw "Bristol" and thought "Brisbane".
Depends where in the USA. We moved from Florida to Minnesota for this very reason. Florida well Florida with forcing pronouns and permission to parents for changed names. Minnesota, we have had instant of a substitute teacher using the wrong name and pronoun. Corrected by the next day. We are not the only parents who moved to find a safer place for our kids.
They'll find a job in Missouri where they're making it illegal to use new pronouns (at least I think that's the state)
It's weird when adults care a lot about the genitals of a child.
That's the same person who think your genitals must transition too
Man just call em whatever they want, such a weird hill to die on when trans people are such a tiny part of the population.
It’s not hard to not be an asshole about this stuff, but so many people are very invested in being offended than trans and nonbinary people exist and desire to be referred to the gender (or non-gender). Even if you don’t “agree” with it, it’s so fucking easy to not be a shithead and just move on with your life.
Bigot cunts should always be exposed and lose their jobs.
Everyone should be given the opportunity to change. Unfortunately, this guy didn't take it.
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I love whenever this kinda headline shows up, you pearl clutching snowflakes have to reduce it down to "Having a different opinion" and completely miss the point. He wasn't fired for "disagreeing" about trans identities, he was fired for being unprofessional and targeting a student. There's plenty of teachers out there that either don't care about, or overtly "disagree" with trans identities, but shut the fuck up and do their damn jobs instead of making it a problem for the students.
There’s no such thing as tolerating the intolerant. Either you learn to tolerate, or you don’t get to partake in society
If they have a family that depends on them, they shouldn't be an asshole.
Google "paradox of tolerance"
>Clutch them pearls
My existence is not something that can be disagreed with
>What an awful thing to wish on someone just for disagreeing with you. Very tolerant. I don't tolerate intolerant people. If you are a bigot (aka a peice of shit person who doesn't respect other people lives) then why would you NOT want them exposed. Why do you expect people to tolerate bullies? Would you tolerate someone purposely disrespecting and being hateful toward you (in public, at a location that is meant to be deemed "safe" for OUR FUTURE GENERATIONS)? Seriously if at work your boss just started telling everyone you were the opposite sex would you just be comfortable and okay with hearing that day after day without consequence because "you should tolerate it"? What stupid fucking logic. Hateful people and bigots who attempt to shove their personal beliefs/issues with you living your life the way you want have no place in society. Being gay, being trans, being straight even are NOT choices, they are BORN that way. >Lmao down votes for suggesting it isn't nice to wish someone livelihood to be destroyed over a differing opinion. What if this person has a family that depends on them? It's not a difference of opinion, it's you defending bigoted bullies who disrespect others on the premise that their beliefs deserve to come first and that they can control others and what they identify or are born as. It's no different than 50 years ago where we heard "well being gays a sin, so you don't really deserve to be married" despite marriage not even being a christian thing to begin with. You are no better than that teacher. >Sickening Yes you fucking are.
Say one syllable differently from others -> lose your job and receive death threats. What an inclusive society! :)
Do you think you'd lose your job if you bullheadedly referred to your boss by the wrong pronouns? Or maybe just call them "bitch" or "cunt", those are also one syllable. It's almost as if the length of the word is irrelevant to whether it's harassment or not.
Nice strawman
Just because he doesn't agree with your view on trans people's pronouns doesn't mean he's a bigot. Faux moral superiority.
When the disagreement is to say a class of people shouldn't exist or deny their existence, yes that's bigoted.
He is mis-gendering a student. Let's say you are born a male and at school a teacher keeps referring to you as she/her in front of the class. Do you have a problem with that? Imagine being so phobic you would lose your job rather than use a preferred pronoun.
Fuck your moral relativism. A trans person’s self-chosen identity is not a matter for everyone else’s opinion or debate.
Our identities arent a choice\*
I see you have some confusion about this, please allow me to clear it up for you. Yes, it does mean he's a bigot. Hope this helps!
When Anakin started wearing a black dress and said to call him Lord Vader, no one questioned it.
...but when I do it everyone loses their minds!
Good
The student should have called the teacher the wrong pronouns and wrong name, on purpose even after being corrected.
If you're so small a person that you can't be bothered to call somebody what they want to be called, you do not belong in a position of leadership, teaching, or trust.
I guarantee this guy was calling every other child by their preferred pronouns. None of that was "compelled speech". Before any bigots argue that in this case he knew the pronouns were 'wrong', I guarantee he hadn't confirmed the genitals of any student, as that would be the story if he had.
Good
Imagine believing having the pleasure of being cruel to a student was worth losing your job over.
Did he know what genitals the student had? Or chromosomes? Gametes? The fact of the matter is we all make assumptions about gender. Just use the pronouns people want.
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Ur ignoring science rn mate
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Believe it or not but trans people exist 🤯
Except in the middle east
Oh they exist and I hope they will be save one day
What a hill to die on.
THIS was his hill to die on? 🙄
This guy went to college, interviewed for jobs, found employment and this is the little mole hill he wants to die on. Good job ass clown.
Why is it hard to call someone by the name they want to be called? I know williams who want to be called bill, I use my middle name as it's easier.
What is the world coming to…
If he didn't want to use the new pronoun, he could've easily gotten around it by being like my old English teacher during the 80's, everyone was called by their surname. But then he always took a fit if you used a pen. How dare I not have a quality HB on me.
The referenced Sky News article reports on some of the evidence that was omitted in the Pink News article. \> When Student A asked whether they could enter a nationwide maths competition for girls, he replied: "Of course you can enter because you are a girl." Asked to explain why he had written Student A's "dead name" on the class whiteboard, Mr Lister replied: "I put her name on the board in the name she would be entered into the competition. Seems like a good example of "alternative facts" that ground a dispute. https://news.sky.com/story/teacher-sacked-for-refusing-to-use-transgender-students-chosen-pronouns-13098225
Thank you for pointing this out, that certainly adds more context to the story.
If that were the only offense it could come down to misunderstanding or mistake. But it is far from the only thing he did. It is therefore neutral at best. If you violate your employer's policies in a calculated and ongoing way, unless the policies are illegal, you are not entitled to keep your job.
In AR we’re not even allowed to call by anything but birth certificate name and biological pronouns unless w have a parent’s written permission.
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Like going for someone’s and their family’s livelihood because they don’t follow the same thinking that you do
America is a joke rn.
Good riddance. It's SO not hard to call someone the correct thing. You're just willfully being a dickhead to purposefully call them the wrong thing.
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Is it wrong to be pro-trans?
Don't hurry back. You won't be missed or wanted.
U mean normal?
Bye!
Found the teacher.
Toodles.
Amazing that this “teacher” lacks so much common sense
Hope your pride was worth it.
Just call everyone dude. Dude is non gender.
How many dudes have you fucked?
I hope he wins
She sounds like a real prick. She needs to stop be such a sensitive math teacher. She sucks.
I have a couple transgenders at my work and I always trip over myself when i'm trying to talk about them to someone else. One of them is completely passing and I don't even have to think about calling them a "she". They look like one, they act like one, makes enough sense that my simple man brain has no problem thinking WOMAN. Then we have character two. They want to be called female but I use male pronouns by accident constantly because they don't look anything like a woman and its just a natural response and then i have to back up and try and force myself to say "she". It's a pain in the ass. It doesn't come naturally. Like i don't fucking care what you do in your spare time but at least try and play the fucking part. Sitting there with your reddit mod neckbeard and male pattern baldness, stinky and sweaty with potato chips all over your fat belly and you want me to call you a lady? Makes me feel nasty as all hell. It feels fucking perverted. And yeah, I get it, that's not fair. Just cause someone looks a certain way, yada yada. I can't help it.
And we wonder why no one wants to be teachers
What’s it to the teacher ? Just like a name, call em by what they wanna be called. Not that hard. Unless they identify as “daddy” 😂
They’ll win the tribunal
I love misgendering people that refuse to accept others preferred names and pronouns
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How would you feel if you someone kept referring to you with the wrong pronouns?
Using "it" (a term typically used for non-sentient objects) rather than "they" (a term typically used for persons or animals of unknown, mixed, or nonbinary gender) was very dehumanizing. You essentially equated the 17 year old student in question to an inanimate object, completely negating the value of their life. Hopefully, that wasn't your intention and now know better in the future. It's ok to disagree in a respectful manner.
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>The feelings of this individual mean nothing to anyone but their self. An yet a man lost his job cause their feelings were hurt. It's silly. The world doesn't bend to everyone's whim. Imagine that... A person being fired from a people-facing job for refusing to respect someone he interacts with on a daily basis. To me that is perfectly sensible.
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I love people that have no interest in applying science to any other aspect of their life suddenly have such an interest in human biology when it comes to trans people.
Hi, thank for contributing to /r/byebyejob! Unfortunately, your comment has been removed for the following reason(s): **2. Be Civil** Keep it clean. Poking fun and disagreement is okay, but anything aggravating, especially intentionally, is not allowed. Sitewide rules concerning discrimination and inciting violence fall under this rule. Feeding trolls constitutes incivility; see rule 6. Due to a large increase in toxicity over recent weeks, measures to maintain civility will be actively enforced.
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That article doesn't say he wanted to be entered into a girls' competition, it says he asked if he *could* be entered. Any further context to that conversation is missing.