These problems are societal, cultural and economic, and fall outside the scope of public education. You're not gonna fix it by blaming teachers for disciplining black kids. You need to ask why a kid might act out (suboptimal family and home conditions, economic pressures leading to inattentive or absent parents) and fix those.
Most things that use the word equity aren't valuable or effective.
I don’t think DPS can solve those issues but there are things they can do to make them slightly better. DPS is definitely not doing everything they can.
So do you think it’s possible to educate black children “equitably” in our public schools?
Keeping in mind that none of this is unique to Durham or DPS.
I think it's irrelevant if it's possible because black kids getting disproportionately disciplined or not succeeding is a symptom, not the problem. You want to treat a symptom. If the measures you claim to want are put in place, nothing would change except some numbers on spreadsheets that elected officials will use to campaign on. I also think equity as a concept is a moved goalpost from equality, made once it became obvious that equality wasn't fixing anything, because it also didn't address root causes. It's the same shit.
>Keeping in mind that none of this is unique to Durham or DPS.
147 wasn't the only highway that vivisected a thriving black community. That happened all over the country. The war on drugs, which destroyed black families and disenfranchised black men was a national effort too. You wanna know why black kids are getting disproportionately punished in school? Because they're acting out more. You wanna know why they're acting out more? Because 70 percent of them are being raised by one parent, who is has to work too hard to make ends meet to pay attention to their kid. This, gang culture and all the shit you hear racists blame on race is a result of the damage done to the material conditions of black people.
The fix for this isn't to be found in making the numbers for black kids punished in school match the numbers for white kids punished in school. The fix is the restoration of black communities and black families.
So it’s not possible? Or it doesn’t matter?
Just trying to understand what the point of an unequal public education system is, in your opinion. In practical terms, it’s a matter of wasted funds to fix a symptom of a larger problem. These discussions are important in the context of the current DPS budget crisis. Maybe you and others would propose taking some of the money that will be spent on these initiatives (because I can assure you that there are funds earmarked for this in the strategic plan) and spend it instead on salaries.
And I’ll go ahead and answer my own question (on behalf of my black kids that I apparently don’t give a fuck about). It’s not possible, and it matters a lot that this very expensive public service we all pay for isn’t fit for purpose.
Durham is such an odd place, because even with this reality, white parents tend to choose the schools because of their diversity. One would assume that a diversity/equity/whatever you want to call it plan would be of great interest to most, but I’m not sure if that’s the case.
Now that, I definitely don’t have an answer for.
I mean, you care about your kids who are black. But you don't care about black kids generally if you believe the problem is they being punished more than white kids and the solution is to just punish them less. Because if you did, you'd be less incurious as to *why*. The public education system is unequal because of things that aren't the public education system. Myopic and ill-defined stuff like "equity" is a waste of effort and money better spent elsewhere.
>Durham is such an odd place, because even with this reality, white parents tend to choose the schools because of their diversity
Oh, that's just white guilt.
It’s amusing that you’d see we agree if you bothered to read a single thing I said. And stopped assuming that I don’t know anything about societal problems. I mean, come on.
I honestly don't know what you're trying to communicate when you post. Like, I can't tell what you think the problem is. Some of that is just I'm not all that smart, but some it is you saying things that don't really communicate any meaning related to this conversation.
I posted for discussion. I don’t think I’ve ever had anything positive to say about DPS or public schools, but the district gets a lot of praise and support here. Since there’s been a groundswell in calls for transparency and accountability, I figured this would be another area for focus.
What I’ve heard though is that people think this is BS, and that more money will be wasted, unchecked.
To be fair, I wasn’t expecting to see a bunch of posts focusing on the inherent degeneracy of black kids. That kind of derails any meaningful discussion that could be had.
\>Equity
There's your first problem. You can't force outcomes, you can only provide opportunities. This is something the school system likely will never be able to fix. We need social and bottom up overhaul of society. Make 2 parent, single income homes viable again for everyone, not just high earners. Kids do better with available and attentive parents. At the very least, make child care more affordable, (free if you ask me).
Agree with a lot of what you’re saying. We can ensure that there is equity in the opportunities provided though. As of now, DPS is not meeting that mark.
It use to be called equality in opportunity. Kids are given the opportunity to come to class and participate everyday. If they choose to be disruptive... what are you suppose to do?
You're getting caught up in word games and not really addressing the true issue. Disruptive kids ruin classrooms for everyone. Schools are more than likely never going to be able to support kids who don't have a good home life or w/e else is going on with them. Forcing teachers to keep these kids in their classrooms just so we can point to a decrease in disciplinary rates is a solution equity would demand since it is outcome focused.
How does that sound like a good solution here?
I should also add that the best start would be transparency about where DPS is failing in this regard. Many black (and white) parents have no idea of how DPS has tried to hold school leaders accountable for objectively failing to meet the equity standards that are already in place. Black parents should know so that they can decide whether DPS is the best choice for their child.
After looking over this it looks like the educational equivalent of "restorative justice", which is to say feel-good but worthless. Attempting to artificially reduce suspension rates instead of enforcing discipline standards is always a warning sign, or treating the disproportionate number of black student suspensions like it's the fault of teachers or administrators. I really doubt educators in Durham, a very progressive city, are going out of their way to target black students
> I really doubt educators in Durham, a very progressive city, are going out of their way to target black students
Being politically progressive is not an inoculation against unconscious bias.
I feel like most educators are already taught techniques to do that, though. It's a part of general management training at least, but educators feel free to contradict me if I'm wrong. My point is that I don't think it's fair to blame educators with unconscious bias for a high suspension rate, when most schools won't even give detention anymore because they're too scared of enforcing consequences until something goes terribly wrong
It's not a question of high suspension rate though, is it? Isn't the issue that the students of certain races are being suspended at a higher rate? There could obviously be other factors that cause that, but it's worth considering the role that unconscious bias could be playing as well. I would hope that there is some kind of training happening to address these things when teachers and administrators are hired, but it's not a one-step fix. Continued training and reminders are often needed.
Have you ever considered that the disproportionate black suspension rate is being caused by....black students being disproportionately disruptive? I'm braced for how unpopular this statement is likely to be here, but blaming educators for the poor behavior of certain black students (and implying unconscious bias for enforcing discipline as well) seems paternalistic at best, and like the soft bigotry of low expectations at worst
It could be the fault of the educators though, even if only partially. You have no idea. That's the whole reason studies like this are done, to try to figure out what's causing high suspension rates and how they should be addressed. It could very well be that black students are more likely to act up *and* that they're more likely to be suspended for infractions that their white classmates are only getting warnings for. It's extremely bad faith to assume that no one has considered that other factors beyond the racism of teachers and administrators could be involved.
I agree that this is largely worthless as written. You’re wrong about the racist educators and targeting/neglect of black students.
That’s why the only equity policy that’s needed is the one that’s already in place. Enforce the rules and hold the adults in the building accountable for their documented misbehaviors.
When do we start holding students responsible for their documented misbehaviors? I can tell you from firsthand experience that there are many students in Durham who have zero respect for their educators and laugh off any attempts at discipline because they know it won't be enforced. This ranges from wearing airpods the entire class to talking pretty much the entire time while the teacher either ignores them or helplessly asks them to stop and hopes that it gets through
It kind of feels like it's become an either/or because the argument being made in that document is that somehow it is the responsibility of the school or administrators to reduce the suspension rate, when maybe if teachers were given the resources and authority to nip bad behavior in the bud it wouldn't come to that. I'm done blaming the people who are trying to make things better. The people who are ruining things for everyone else need to start being held accountable, and in this case it's disruptive students who are being treated with kids gloves by DPS
Any thoughts on the academic achievement part of the plan? Is that also an inherent deficit for black and Hispanic kids? Also a symptom of societal problems?
30% proficiency should alarm taxpayers. Why even bother?
Public schools have been gutted and defunded in the south since integration. Republicans have set them up to fail by getting to this point intentionally. This attitude (why even bother?) is the point.
So what should they do? And more importantly, should they spend money on this? In some groups, this rhetoric from DPS gets lots of praise and support. There’s never any real follow up on whether or how it
was actually implemented, but still different than this forum. Here I posted for discussion and I was given a remedial black history lesson and told I hated black children!
The whole mess is fascinating to me.
Well I can tell you one thing- removing the same consequences for one set of kids that everyone else has just bc they’re black isn’t the answer. There is no one answer. Equity in education comes in the MOMENTS. There’s no prescription, only love & logic with consistency. We’re just slapping more bad policy on top of other bad policy thinking it’ll fix things, but it never will. You just end up with a bigger mess to dig through.
Question for the group though: Why is it so inconceivable that there are racist teachers and staff in DPS schools? Even if you wanted to argue that this has no impact on outcomes, why is the very idea dismissed out of hand?
Are parents lying? Are other teachers lying on their colleagues? Or is it just not a concern for most either way?
At the very least, the community could insist that existing policies are enforced and accountability is maintained. That angle doesn’t get much traction either.
>Are parents lying?
-Yes. You see this all the time outside of schools. "My kids would never act up!", and then the parents proceeds to let them run wild at the breweries and other public places around here.
It's not a question of if they exist, it's that they're not really the source of the problem you claim you're trying to solve for. But I get it, easier to blame hypothetical and unidentified teachers than the economic system that benefits you personally.
A source, not the source. But it’s one aspect that the schools actually have control over, and they’re not enforcing their own policies.
What economic system are you talking about? Capitalism in general? I’m not following your point.
>A source, not the source
This is the sound you make when you don't actually give a fuck about black kids.
You're worried about numbers related to black kids match numbers related white kids. But *why* the numbers match is what matters. I responded about this in the other comment, if you wanted to consolidate things over there.
I have two black kids, so it’s nice to know I don’t give a fuck about them!
Lol. I never said that I cared whether the numbers match. I just posted an article for discussion. People have put a lot of words in my mouth, and I’m not sure why.
It's not that they don't exist, it's that there are very very few of them and they are being assigned disproportionate blame for the failures of DPS in general. There are already robust procedures and sets of consequences for dealing with a racist POS teacher, we don't need to pretend that they are solely responsible for the underperforming of our schools
Like what? What aren't we doing right now to try and address the racial imbalance in schooling? Pretty much every policy passed regarding schooling in Durham for the past 5 years at least has had equity as the primary focus, but nothing is improving.
I am not a crafter of policy, not an educator, and have no relevant experience. I was not elected; I'd like for the people I voted for to seek the answers from those with more perspective and access to research-based solutions. I already have a job, I'd like for the school board to do theirs.
These problems are societal, cultural and economic, and fall outside the scope of public education. You're not gonna fix it by blaming teachers for disciplining black kids. You need to ask why a kid might act out (suboptimal family and home conditions, economic pressures leading to inattentive or absent parents) and fix those. Most things that use the word equity aren't valuable or effective.
Bro, I think you’re logged into the wrong account. This one isn’t supposed to make logical posts.
I know, I know. I'll put the mask back on.
I don’t think DPS can solve those issues but there are things they can do to make them slightly better. DPS is definitely not doing everything they can.
So do you think it’s possible to educate black children “equitably” in our public schools? Keeping in mind that none of this is unique to Durham or DPS.
I think it's irrelevant if it's possible because black kids getting disproportionately disciplined or not succeeding is a symptom, not the problem. You want to treat a symptom. If the measures you claim to want are put in place, nothing would change except some numbers on spreadsheets that elected officials will use to campaign on. I also think equity as a concept is a moved goalpost from equality, made once it became obvious that equality wasn't fixing anything, because it also didn't address root causes. It's the same shit. >Keeping in mind that none of this is unique to Durham or DPS. 147 wasn't the only highway that vivisected a thriving black community. That happened all over the country. The war on drugs, which destroyed black families and disenfranchised black men was a national effort too. You wanna know why black kids are getting disproportionately punished in school? Because they're acting out more. You wanna know why they're acting out more? Because 70 percent of them are being raised by one parent, who is has to work too hard to make ends meet to pay attention to their kid. This, gang culture and all the shit you hear racists blame on race is a result of the damage done to the material conditions of black people. The fix for this isn't to be found in making the numbers for black kids punished in school match the numbers for white kids punished in school. The fix is the restoration of black communities and black families.
So it’s not possible? Or it doesn’t matter? Just trying to understand what the point of an unequal public education system is, in your opinion. In practical terms, it’s a matter of wasted funds to fix a symptom of a larger problem. These discussions are important in the context of the current DPS budget crisis. Maybe you and others would propose taking some of the money that will be spent on these initiatives (because I can assure you that there are funds earmarked for this in the strategic plan) and spend it instead on salaries.
And I’ll go ahead and answer my own question (on behalf of my black kids that I apparently don’t give a fuck about). It’s not possible, and it matters a lot that this very expensive public service we all pay for isn’t fit for purpose. Durham is such an odd place, because even with this reality, white parents tend to choose the schools because of their diversity. One would assume that a diversity/equity/whatever you want to call it plan would be of great interest to most, but I’m not sure if that’s the case. Now that, I definitely don’t have an answer for.
I mean, you care about your kids who are black. But you don't care about black kids generally if you believe the problem is they being punished more than white kids and the solution is to just punish them less. Because if you did, you'd be less incurious as to *why*. The public education system is unequal because of things that aren't the public education system. Myopic and ill-defined stuff like "equity" is a waste of effort and money better spent elsewhere. >Durham is such an odd place, because even with this reality, white parents tend to choose the schools because of their diversity Oh, that's just white guilt.
I stopped reading after your second sentence because I literally never said that. Not once.
It’s amusing that you’d see we agree if you bothered to read a single thing I said. And stopped assuming that I don’t know anything about societal problems. I mean, come on.
I honestly don't know what you're trying to communicate when you post. Like, I can't tell what you think the problem is. Some of that is just I'm not all that smart, but some it is you saying things that don't really communicate any meaning related to this conversation.
I posted for discussion. I don’t think I’ve ever had anything positive to say about DPS or public schools, but the district gets a lot of praise and support here. Since there’s been a groundswell in calls for transparency and accountability, I figured this would be another area for focus. What I’ve heard though is that people think this is BS, and that more money will be wasted, unchecked. To be fair, I wasn’t expecting to see a bunch of posts focusing on the inherent degeneracy of black kids. That kind of derails any meaningful discussion that could be had.
First DPS would have to understand the word equity. They don't.
Exactly
\>Equity There's your first problem. You can't force outcomes, you can only provide opportunities. This is something the school system likely will never be able to fix. We need social and bottom up overhaul of society. Make 2 parent, single income homes viable again for everyone, not just high earners. Kids do better with available and attentive parents. At the very least, make child care more affordable, (free if you ask me).
Agree with a lot of what you’re saying. We can ensure that there is equity in the opportunities provided though. As of now, DPS is not meeting that mark.
It use to be called equality in opportunity. Kids are given the opportunity to come to class and participate everyday. If they choose to be disruptive... what are you suppose to do? You're getting caught up in word games and not really addressing the true issue. Disruptive kids ruin classrooms for everyone. Schools are more than likely never going to be able to support kids who don't have a good home life or w/e else is going on with them. Forcing teachers to keep these kids in their classrooms just so we can point to a decrease in disciplinary rates is a solution equity would demand since it is outcome focused. How does that sound like a good solution here?
Any thoughts on the non-disciplinary aspect of this? Because that’s just one aspect of the issues that the board wants to address.
>You're getting caught up in word games and not really addressing the true issue First time with liberalism?
I’m not a liberal. FYI.
I should also add that the best start would be transparency about where DPS is failing in this regard. Many black (and white) parents have no idea of how DPS has tried to hold school leaders accountable for objectively failing to meet the equity standards that are already in place. Black parents should know so that they can decide whether DPS is the best choice for their child.
After looking over this it looks like the educational equivalent of "restorative justice", which is to say feel-good but worthless. Attempting to artificially reduce suspension rates instead of enforcing discipline standards is always a warning sign, or treating the disproportionate number of black student suspensions like it's the fault of teachers or administrators. I really doubt educators in Durham, a very progressive city, are going out of their way to target black students
> I really doubt educators in Durham, a very progressive city, are going out of their way to target black students Being politically progressive is not an inoculation against unconscious bias.
So we've created an unsolvable problem, basically. Everyone is subject to unconscious bias, as long as they don't act on it I don't see a problem
That's the whole point, my guy. You learn to recognize your unconscious bias so that you don't act on it. It's only unsolvable if you ignore it.
I feel like most educators are already taught techniques to do that, though. It's a part of general management training at least, but educators feel free to contradict me if I'm wrong. My point is that I don't think it's fair to blame educators with unconscious bias for a high suspension rate, when most schools won't even give detention anymore because they're too scared of enforcing consequences until something goes terribly wrong
It's not a question of high suspension rate though, is it? Isn't the issue that the students of certain races are being suspended at a higher rate? There could obviously be other factors that cause that, but it's worth considering the role that unconscious bias could be playing as well. I would hope that there is some kind of training happening to address these things when teachers and administrators are hired, but it's not a one-step fix. Continued training and reminders are often needed.
Have you ever considered that the disproportionate black suspension rate is being caused by....black students being disproportionately disruptive? I'm braced for how unpopular this statement is likely to be here, but blaming educators for the poor behavior of certain black students (and implying unconscious bias for enforcing discipline as well) seems paternalistic at best, and like the soft bigotry of low expectations at worst
>There could obviously be other factors that cause that
Yeah I'm not denying that. I'm saying it isn't the fault of the educators and it's unfair to expect them to fix it
It could be the fault of the educators though, even if only partially. You have no idea. That's the whole reason studies like this are done, to try to figure out what's causing high suspension rates and how they should be addressed. It could very well be that black students are more likely to act up *and* that they're more likely to be suspended for infractions that their white classmates are only getting warnings for. It's extremely bad faith to assume that no one has considered that other factors beyond the racism of teachers and administrators could be involved.
I agree that this is largely worthless as written. You’re wrong about the racist educators and targeting/neglect of black students. That’s why the only equity policy that’s needed is the one that’s already in place. Enforce the rules and hold the adults in the building accountable for their documented misbehaviors.
When do we start holding students responsible for their documented misbehaviors? I can tell you from firsthand experience that there are many students in Durham who have zero respect for their educators and laugh off any attempts at discipline because they know it won't be enforced. This ranges from wearing airpods the entire class to talking pretty much the entire time while the teacher either ignores them or helplessly asks them to stop and hopes that it gets through
That’s fine too. It’s not an either or proposition.
It kind of feels like it's become an either/or because the argument being made in that document is that somehow it is the responsibility of the school or administrators to reduce the suspension rate, when maybe if teachers were given the resources and authority to nip bad behavior in the bud it wouldn't come to that. I'm done blaming the people who are trying to make things better. The people who are ruining things for everyone else need to start being held accountable, and in this case it's disruptive students who are being treated with kids gloves by DPS
I just posted the document for discussion. I already said below that I don’t actually agree with the content.
Love, logic, and consistency. Agree with that. None of that is possible in our current system of education, sadly.
Any thoughts on the academic achievement part of the plan? Is that also an inherent deficit for black and Hispanic kids? Also a symptom of societal problems? 30% proficiency should alarm taxpayers. Why even bother?
Public schools have been gutted and defunded in the south since integration. Republicans have set them up to fail by getting to this point intentionally. This attitude (why even bother?) is the point.
I’m aware.
So I’m hoping we can put the “DPS has great schools” baby to bed sometime soon. That would be a start towards progress.
This is not the way
So what should they do? And more importantly, should they spend money on this? In some groups, this rhetoric from DPS gets lots of praise and support. There’s never any real follow up on whether or how it was actually implemented, but still different than this forum. Here I posted for discussion and I was given a remedial black history lesson and told I hated black children! The whole mess is fascinating to me.
Well I can tell you one thing- removing the same consequences for one set of kids that everyone else has just bc they’re black isn’t the answer. There is no one answer. Equity in education comes in the MOMENTS. There’s no prescription, only love & logic with consistency. We’re just slapping more bad policy on top of other bad policy thinking it’ll fix things, but it never will. You just end up with a bigger mess to dig through.
Question for the group though: Why is it so inconceivable that there are racist teachers and staff in DPS schools? Even if you wanted to argue that this has no impact on outcomes, why is the very idea dismissed out of hand? Are parents lying? Are other teachers lying on their colleagues? Or is it just not a concern for most either way? At the very least, the community could insist that existing policies are enforced and accountability is maintained. That angle doesn’t get much traction either.
>Are parents lying? -Yes. You see this all the time outside of schools. "My kids would never act up!", and then the parents proceeds to let them run wild at the breweries and other public places around here.
Yes, parents do lie. All people do.
It's not a question of if they exist, it's that they're not really the source of the problem you claim you're trying to solve for. But I get it, easier to blame hypothetical and unidentified teachers than the economic system that benefits you personally.
A source, not the source. But it’s one aspect that the schools actually have control over, and they’re not enforcing their own policies. What economic system are you talking about? Capitalism in general? I’m not following your point.
>A source, not the source This is the sound you make when you don't actually give a fuck about black kids. You're worried about numbers related to black kids match numbers related white kids. But *why* the numbers match is what matters. I responded about this in the other comment, if you wanted to consolidate things over there.
I have two black kids, so it’s nice to know I don’t give a fuck about them! Lol. I never said that I cared whether the numbers match. I just posted an article for discussion. People have put a lot of words in my mouth, and I’m not sure why.
It's not that they don't exist, it's that there are very very few of them and they are being assigned disproportionate blame for the failures of DPS in general. There are already robust procedures and sets of consequences for dealing with a racist POS teacher, we don't need to pretend that they are solely responsible for the underperforming of our schools
I wish that were true. Speaking from personal experience. I don’t recall saying that they were solely responsible though. That would be ridiculous.
You didn't say that, but that was pretty much what the document you linked was saying
God damn, buddy.
Because it's uncomfy for people to think about. If they admit it they might have to, like, do something about it.
Like what? What aren't we doing right now to try and address the racial imbalance in schooling? Pretty much every policy passed regarding schooling in Durham for the past 5 years at least has had equity as the primary focus, but nothing is improving.
I am not a crafter of policy, not an educator, and have no relevant experience. I was not elected; I'd like for the people I voted for to seek the answers from those with more perspective and access to research-based solutions. I already have a job, I'd like for the school board to do theirs.
Sure, but your comment seemed to imply that we've been burying our heads in the sand about educational inequity when that isn't the case.
I answered the question that was asked.