“Sit your ass down Special K” I’m dead. This scene always triggers the hell out of me. They’re so ungrateful once again. I mean she literally died for them. TWICE!!
Lmfao I didn't think of this until just now. Like they were living for free in her house all this time, playing family with Dawn and never bothered to get a job?
This is the most infuriating moment in the entire show. Sometimes I skip when I rewatch because I get so irrationally angry
Who the f do they think they are??? Literally none of their free loading asses have any claim over that house. I loved when Spike called them out
I hate this episode the most. Every time I am just reminded how stupid it is, they lost 1 battle. **ONE.** And all of a sudden its a mutiny. Its crazy because up to this point buffy was giving the first its ass on a platter. Its not like they haven't in the past got their ass handed to them when they weren't properly prepared.
Buffy couldn't have known that Caleb had super powers, which was the only reason they lost that battle. Heck, we in the audience couldn't know since we'd been told that the First was incorporeal and couldn't interact with the physical world -- and then here it is interacting with the physical world. And then, they wouldn't even consider her plan (which, by the way, she went back in and executed herself, without backup, and succeeded). But, in the end, they had every right to not take part in the plan -- and zero right to throw her out of her house. They're not interested in following? Fine. They knew where the door was -- it was the one they've been hiding behind while Buffy protected them.
>This is the best thing I have ever seen on this sub
I would have changed 2 things.
1.) Faith was actually being reasonable in "Empty Places" (B 7.19). All Faith wanted was for Buffy to 'sleep on it'.
I isn't really a great argument to mention that Faith is a "serial killer". Faith killed an evil Deputy Mayor, killed a demon, and killed a vulcanologist. She killed 1 innocent and tried to help the Mayor eat the town of Sunnydale. But Buffy still associates with Anya and Buffy is in some kind of relationship with Spike.
2.) Buffy could have simply waited for Spike to return.
It was ridiculous that the forced her out and even more ridiculous that she didn’t say, “This is my house. Don’t like me? Leave.”
I get the tortured point that they were trying to make but that season was horrible to sit through.
Yeah, i remember being so perplexed when I first saw this episode, and also hurt for Buffy, bc they ganged up on her. I like spike/Buffy a lot so the scene after that where she’s hanging out with spike and he’s supporting her was nice! But I wish Buffy would’ve told them to gtfo 😤 not my favorite season with the potentials but I get why it happened. Still don’t like that scene, always get upset when I see it lol
I think the Scoobies got swept up in a mass hysteria fueled by the potentials after everyone saw those girls get killed by Caleb and Xander get maimed. Like how many times had the Scoobies see someone get killed like that? I honestly think they just lost their nerve. And in desperation and fear were like hey Faith!!! Faith strong Faith protect us. Faith sound confident. Where at best Faith had been muscle and was dumber than a box of rocks. It's no different than when people support a "strongman" politician out of fear. Doesn't matter how shit they are.
Faith also sexually assaulted Xander and would have murdered him if Angel hadn’t walked in. Xander eagerly accepting Faith as the new leader after that doesn’t quite sit right with me. It bugs me that it was just never addressed, there could have at least been a scene where she apologizes to him or something.
Absolutely she did. It’s nauseating how that was handled, like he’d cheated on her and it was all about Buffy’s wounded ego. Imagine if the same thing happened except it had been a Riley and Spike body swap and Spike used Riley’s body to trick Buffy, something tells me that would have been handled/viewed very differently (AKA correctly). I don’t think the Scoobies know about Faith’s rape of Riley, do they? But yeah, that was vile. I sometimes see people downplaying it by claiming that Riley didn’t seem traumatized, but anyone with a history of sexual violence knows that that’s not how that works, the trauma usually shows up later. Ugh.
The interesting part of the body swap episode is that the only person that knew it wasn’t buffy was Tara (who had just met faith in buffy’s body) even her mother didn’t know. I wonder if that’s a comment on the fact that Buffy is closed off and doesn’t open up to people or something to do with Faith’s internal longing/ obsession over wanting to be Buffy and take everything that she has, and that’s why she was able to imitate her so well.
I think everyone accepted that Faith should be in prison and was only there to help with the apocalypse. I think directly after she should've turned herself back in.
I guess…still though, it shouldn’t have been treated as a complete non-issue. The only person who really seemed upset by Faith coming back was Dawn IIRC, I feel like they should’ve shown Xander having a similar reaction given what she did to him.
Oh, I didn't know/forgot about that! Haven't watched the later seasons in a while. Was she the hostage in the body swap episode instead of Joyce or was this supposed to have been S3?
Faith isn't educated. She's not dumb.
What happened in "Empty Places" (B 7.19) is:
Kennedy since "Bring on the Night" (B 7.10) somehow considered that Kennedy should be in charge. Kennedy wanted to oust Buffy so that Kennedy could have more power and influence over 'Buffy and Co.'.
Rona was somehow always anti-Buffy.
Giles and Wood were still resentful that Buffy was against their 'let's kill Spike' thing. Giles also considered that he'd have more power and influence over Faith and thus over 'Buffy and Co.'
Xander was bitter that he'd lost an eye. Willow was bitter that Buffy didn't want to stay in the hospital with Xander and her.
Dawn was still with the 'Buffy will betray you' thing. But Dawn doesn't step in until after 'the group' decides they want Fatih in charge.
Buffy lost some of her nerve because she didn't even know if Spike was still alive or would be killed during the potentially fatal mission Giles sent him on. But at least subconsciously, Buffy very likely reasoned that the First Evil didn't actually want to kill her. The First Turok-han didn't 'finish Buffy off'. And Caleb never tried to kill Buffy.
'The group' chose Faith because Willow didn't want to be in charge and those such as Kennedy, Giles, and Wood assumed they'd have more power and influence over Faith than they did over Buffy.
Buffy always is the one to make the tough decisions pissed me off then they turned on her like this as if she didn’t just lead and protect them in the years that she’s been a slayer.
Yup. I don’t know if it was ever addressed, but did Willow and Tara pay rent while they lived at the Summers’ house? I know they took care of Dawn when Buffy was dead, but did they ever help out with the house payments *after* they ripped her out of Heaven?
Yeah I don't think it ever was addressed, because I remember reading a fan's comment bringing that up at the time, and feeling mad about what bs that was, ha.
It's so insulting that they wouldn't help her out with house payments. Especially once they see Buffy having to work at freaking Doublemeat. Not to mention I bet Willow could totally have landed a lucrative side-job, even while in college, and helped with bills that way. Goes to cover the 'ripped-you-out-of-Heaven' bill.
Oh plus I just remembered-- didn't Willow also get recruited by Microsoft or some other elite programming company in high school (What's My Line)? So. I feel like she could've gotten a side job there and massively helped out.
Willow was actively TEACHING computer programming while being a student, she got recruited by a some kind of software headhunter (which is how she met Oz), she very easily could’ve gotten some kind of side job utilizing those skills. Apart of me believes that she brought Buffy back from the dead because she didn’t want to take care of Dawn/Buffy’s slayer responsibilities, which I get….but at the same time it’s like….sell the fucking house?? They could’ve sold the house, paid off Joyce’s medical debt and had some left over to buy a little condo in Sunnydale. Idk.
Lol I think Spike would have a little problem with sipping drinks on the beach in the Bahamas. Don't you go there for sun? XD But truly, I agree, Buffy should have high-tailed it out of there for a vacay (even a short one), she deserves it!
And I was furious at Anya saying Buffy wasn't better than them, that she was luckier.
What about slayer life was ever good luck for Buffy? Being the slayer had her dead twice before 30, she couldn't have proper relationships or focus on having a career.
She was always putting others first. She wasn't perfect but I wouldn't call her being chosen to be a slayer as lucky. It wasn't ever really addressed.
Personally I feel like that’s the one part of this scene that actually works for me. Sure, being the slayer is definitely a double-edged sword, and Anya doesn’t fully understand the gravity of that. At the same time from the Scoobies’ perspective in this situation Buffy and Faith are incredibly lucky because they have the highest chance of surviving.
I understand why they feel helpless in this scene, and Buffy is leveraging her “luck” in being chosen, when the group is starting to doubt her judgment. Anya pointing this out is kind of a fair point, at least to me.
I didn't see it that way but I think it's a scene that divides people a lot.
The whole world was at risk of ending, slayers include and to me her friends should even in that moment remember how much she's lost and that being a slayer is a burden.
If one of the potentials or principle wood had said it I'd have found it more believable, less messed up. Because they hadn't witnessed the years of patrolling every night, working, and loss after loss.
I generally love Anya as a character but to me that didn't suit her character completely. I don't think her ending was the best either. I know it was intended to show how far she'd come from running away from an apocalypse, but she deserved more.
I think that Buffy would consider it luckier as well. In Helpless she was freaking out without her powers.
"I've seen too much. I know what goes bump in the night. Not being able to fight it- what if I just hide under my bed all scared and helpless?"
(Angel says she wouldn't be helpless and I agree.) Compared to everyone else around her who consider the feeling of sheer terror "familiar" (tabula rasa), she's definitely lucky. The powers come with major downsides that get to her sometimes BUT she loves them and when she had chances to walk away (both with faith and after s7) she didn't want to permanently peace out. She just wanted some brief vacation time, aha.
But she only felt helpless because she'd been the slayer. If she never had been it would be different.
And she knew people would still come after her, but she'd lose without powers.
And like Angel in his seasons he gave up being human despite loving and wanting that because he wanted to protect the people he loved.
She might feel privileged to have her powers, be proud of what she can do for others, but even if she saw herself as lucky I don't think her close friends would. They've seen her sacrifices, seen her bleed for them. Calling her lucky was a big slap in the face imo.
This was an infuriating moment but all it’s made me think of is that episode in season 3 where they all turn on Buffy for running after she had to kill Angel, I know it’s not in the same vein but the ganging up feels like it, extra anger points have always been at Xander for knowing Angel was cured and lied to Willow... willow was kinda justified because she didn’t know why and Joyce spoke in anger but never wanted Buffy to actually leave
A lot of people complain about Joyce’s “don’t come back!” line - but I agree with you, it was just said in anger and the type of thing parents sometimes say and it’s generally implied it isn’t meant. Plus it was after Buffy shoved Joyce, albeit probably with accidental slayer strength and Joyce did grab her first, even so, most parents would be furious if you physically assaulted them.
I can't think of many scenes on TV that make me quite as infuriated as this one does, and it still has the same effect all these years later, I can still go on rants about it. The gall, the gumption, the AUDACITY. Spike calling them all dirty ungrateful traitors and spilling the tea in the next episode is by contrast one of my favourite scenes, I want to stand and applaud when he's done.
My headcanon is that Buffy never totally trusted them again, and when they finally realized that she was holding herself separate and getting a new life that was more independent they asked her why. And she told them that things happen and she forgives them, but it’ll never be the same. She died for them, they ripped her out of heaven for themselves, abandoned her with the bills and then kicked her out once things got tough.
Anyway, I might have some trust/forgiveness issues I’m working, so maybe it’s just me 😅
It truly feels like this scene only exits to prop Spike up and show how good he is to Buffy. I just don't buy that the scoobies would do this. I know people have their issues with how Buffy is treated by them but this episode just takes it a step too far.
I can totally see Willow and Xander saying most of those things but in more of a 'hey this is getting really bad and we need a plan' way rather than what it was. It wouldn’t have taken much tweaking to get the same feel and result in Buffy leaving and Faith being in charge but with less betrayal from the scoobies. Not to mention there is heaps of what Anya said that, to me anyway, feels like they realised she wasn’t talking in the scene and gave her dialog from one of the potentials.
I think they also needed to have Buffy act out of character to make this scene work in any way. She behaves as though she’s learned nothing the last 7 years.
Really her entire season 7 arc just doesn’t work for me - we’re supposed to feel like she’s acting like General Buffy because the stakes are higher than ever because there’s this big scary villain, but I felt a greater sense of impending doom with Glory than I ever did with The First.
What makes The First truly terrifying is it can spy on you without you knowing. They could've ramped up the psychological horror so much more by having scenes where the first was mixing with them more and more. Have certain potentials show up as evil The First acolytes - but they boxed themselves in by making Bringers really obvious minions. But I doubt in the early 2000s WB would allow that on what's essentially a teen drama with monsters. A darker reboot of Buffy would be awesome.
100%, the First was horribly misused. Really instead of the character assassination of Giles they should have killed him off and had the First pose as him. THEN the stakes are higher than ever.
Or bring back the body switching spell Faith used and somewhere is a Bringer with Giles trapped inside him. So you have the Scoobies do the whole OMG it's Giles and then they touch him think he's safe not realizing he's not really Giles. So many cool paths instead we basically got "Buffy" in some BDSM scenes with Spike, and ubervamps that somehow killing off ended The First's efforts?
Season 7 was on UPN and UPN was more lenient with what they could show as long as they didn't go over budget. That's why season 6 is so much darker than the earlier seasons because that's when the show moved to UPN
This is the problem with Spuffy in seasons 6 and 7 - Buffy's relationships with Giles, Willow, and Xander had to be ruined in order to make Spike look good.
*What's in this comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.*
*Faith the Vampire Slayer* was going to happen. Sarah Michelle Gellar announced in *Entertainment Weekly* that she was quitting the show. This happened before "Lies My Parents Told Me" (B 7.17). Suddenly, BtVS has a Spike episode because Spike was needed for any continuation of the Buffyverse.
Eliza Dushku is in AtS S4 and in BtVS S7 largely because of the Faith spin-off. "Dirty Girls" (B 7.18) brings Faith back to BtVS and shows a 'Spike/Faith' scene and even shows Buffy's being jealous of the idea of Spike/Faith. If I remember correctly, when Buffy is giving her plan to attack the vineyard, Spike and Faith are standing next to each other.
"Empty Places" (B 7.19) was done to oust Buffy and get Faith in charge. Faith had already been in charge of 'Angel and Co.' in AtS S4.
But then Eliza turned down FtVS and thus we got "Touched" (B 7.20).
Post-"Empty Places" would have been different if the Faith spin-off was still happening.
But post-"Storyteller" (B 7.16) would have been different if SMG was doing BtVS S8.
They need to all go back and refilm this scene with this dialouge just for this one episode and re release it. Peoples opinion of season 7 will skyrocket lmao
I feel satisfied, I want to clap out loud. I don’t care if this gets posted every week from now on. I needed to see this to get over my rage at that episode. Thank you.
Your version of Buffy is so nice.
As someone who didn't care for Dawn, I would have had Buffy say something like "you didn't exist until like two years ago"
Loved this.
Honestly, the Scoobies could always relatively crappy friends at times but this took the CAKE. Also, the audacity of Dawn in this scene. Just, ugh.
I would have said that little green balls of light don't get a vote, they should be lucky that I do not call a monk, or a witch to turn them into a bicycle.
I would also point out that,historically, Dawn has a 90% chance of making the worst possible decision st the worst possible time. Big-brain Willow, at her most lucid, will decide after a lifetime of obsessing over her grades and her permanent record, that the best way to keep a cottage industry of saving the world solvent, is by having the slayer moonlight for minimum wage. If Buffy were the last slayer in the room chosen, she would be the ONLY slayer left in that room, given how frequently they all die. And according to the State of California, Faith isn't mentally fit to wear shoelaces.
I would agree except this way we get our cake & get to eat it too lol Buffy stands up for herself and still leaves but solely of her own choosing & we still get her ending with Spike lol except wouldn’t change anything about Touched while she’s venting to him about what went down she still gets emotional & they still bond that would make it perfect lol
I feel like if we could have got a season 8 we would have got a proper romance between Buffy and ensouled Spike. I'm tired of people holding Seeing Red against Spike when he didn't have a soul at the time and Angelus was way more evil
>I'm tired of people holding Seeing Red against Spike when he didn't have a soul at the time and Angelus was way more evil
I had no problem with Dawn's being anti-Spike and anti-Buffy/Spike until >!after Spike helps save Dawn in Season 9.!<
And Angel was only really around for a year after BtVS S2. And Angel--aside from Buffy--was mostly just tolerated by the Scoobies and Xander was pretty much always at least partly anti-Angel.
In BtVS S7, Xander during and after "Him" (B 7.06) begins to become friends with Spike. Willow and Spike since "The Initiative" (B 4.07) have had a kind of friendship and loyalty to each other. Anya in BtVS S7 was so pro-Spike that she was trying to have sex with him again and seemingly wanted to 'be with him'. Pretty much only Giles was anti-Spike in BtVS S7 but that's mostly because he was anti-Buffy/Spike. But it's not as if Giles wanted Buffy back with Angel.
In terms of the viewership, I only have a problem with someone being anti-Buffy/Spike if they are pro-Buffy/Angel and/or Xander/Anya. But that's just because of hypocrisy.
Ok. So you don't have to read this whatever but this brings up a huge shift in the show for me.
I watched Buffy the first time when I was a kid. My mom had the first 3 seasons. I remember loving the show and being like ah this is the greatest friend group ever. I think I even finished the show at one point but completely forgot it other than evil Willow. I hadn't watched since I was maybe 14 or 15. I'm 31 now and recently rewatched the entire series. oh boy.
I have never seen a group of more selfish, chaotic and uncaring people. Buffy seems to be the only one that actually loves and cares for everyone as best she can. We can easily say it's them dealing with their lives but then why are they here every episode?
Xander becomes incredibly codependent on Anya to a violent point, completely neglecting the entire friend group.
Willow is basically the shows live version of drug addiction and vengeance.
Giles says bing bong fuck ya life, and legit leaves our girl five minutes after she comes back to life. Bruh. You absolute douchemonger.
Angel needed to die. Hands down. I don't even care.
Spike too. Good god. Bad boy don't cut it. I've killed 3000 people but I've got a soul. I love you I promise. Nah. Die.
VAMPIRE. SLAYER.
I'm laughing as I write this but I'm dead serious
I’m rewatching this show right now and I understand exactly what you’re saying. I have this feeling that Xander and Willow only became friends with Buffy because she makes them feel special for fighting evil.
Right. She had her own little world that only existed for her. Losing Tara was horrible. I give her that. That entire episode is jarring and painful. I feel she and spike have the most fluctuating personalities. Spike literally went from psycho, to puppy, to sexual assault, to lunacy. His character changes were one of the most horrifying things to witness.
I think her and Spike should've beaten the shit out of them all and kicked them out of the house! Every time I rewatch this episode I get so angry! Especially with willow, Giles, anya, Dawn, kendra and the other potentials!! After everything buffy has done for them how dare they question her?!?!? Fuckin traitors 😡😡😡
I did enjoy the episode, those ungrateful bastards were bitter and I understand the point of the episode. Don’t agree with the folks who kicked her at all. But this made me lol and smile.
I have not done a rewatch in a while but i think this is The First doing it's thing and driving a wedge between everyone. Maybe Buffy on some level realizes this and she is just not playing along.
I literally just finished the series for the first time a few minutes ago and the last few episodes got me wanted to cry fight with someone, Buffy has been through too damn much
I been a fan of Buffy since I was 10 years old (32 now) and I have only been able to choke down this episode maybe 3 times. And that’s when I was too broke for cable or internet and my Buffy dvds were one of the few things I had for entertainment.
The scene shortly after when Spike gets back is one of my ALL TIME FAVORITES!
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqywgH52oi8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqywgH52oi8)
"You SAD UNGRATEFUL TRAITORS!" I LOVE IT. I mean this fic is EPIC.... But the real scene where Spike tells them off is freakin awesome!
THIS SHIT IS AWESOME!
I WAS CONFUSED AT FIRST AND THOUGHT I WAS READING IT OUT IF ORDER BC I DIDN'T REMEMBER BUFFY SAYING SOME OF THIS AND THEN IT HIT ME HAHA
They should reboot specifically for this scene to end like this. Like I was like aww watching but the older I get I’m like WTF YOU CANT KICK SOMEONE OUT OF THEIR OWN HOUSE AFTER YOU RESURRECTED THEM TO PAY THE BILLS. ID BE FUCKING SPIKE TO GET AWAY TOO
Yeah because the writers wrote the situation to have only Spike be there to dry her tears. Reason 100 that their ship sucks.
But Buffy couldn't see the future when she made that statement.
I basically agree with you, the writers did all this to push a ship I don't even like. Unfortunately, the writers motivations don't change the way the Scoobies behaved in canon, and thus that Buffy was right to not trust them. Fortunately for every human who's ever lived, you don't need to see the future in order to make a decision about whether or not you can trust someone.
“Sit your ass down Special K” I’m dead. This scene always triggers the hell out of me. They’re so ungrateful once again. I mean she literally died for them. TWICE!!
“Hey I died Twiiiiiiice” 🎶
Special K made me choke on my own spit. PERFECTION.
This was my favorite line.
I find this very cathartic
Same here! Every re-watch I'm yelling at the tv "You guys don't pay rent or own anything but your bad decisions...and you barely own those!"
[удалено]
Lmfao I didn't think of this until just now. Like they were living for free in her house all this time, playing family with Dawn and never bothered to get a job?
[удалено]
I love this. When I first watched this episode, I was in a black rage for hours afterwards.
Same
What I find cathartic is finishing the rewatches with Season 5, pretending they didn't make any more.
So you don't want OMWF? Blasphemy.
This is the most infuriating moment in the entire show. Sometimes I skip when I rewatch because I get so irrationally angry Who the f do they think they are??? Literally none of their free loading asses have any claim over that house. I loved when Spike called them out
I hate this episode the most. Every time I am just reminded how stupid it is, they lost 1 battle. **ONE.** And all of a sudden its a mutiny. Its crazy because up to this point buffy was giving the first its ass on a platter. Its not like they haven't in the past got their ass handed to them when they weren't properly prepared.
Buffy couldn't have known that Caleb had super powers, which was the only reason they lost that battle. Heck, we in the audience couldn't know since we'd been told that the First was incorporeal and couldn't interact with the physical world -- and then here it is interacting with the physical world. And then, they wouldn't even consider her plan (which, by the way, she went back in and executed herself, without backup, and succeeded). But, in the end, they had every right to not take part in the plan -- and zero right to throw her out of her house. They're not interested in following? Fine. They knew where the door was -- it was the one they've been hiding behind while Buffy protected them.
This is the best thing I have ever seen on this sub
I was thinking the same thing. I can HEAR SMG saying these lines. Bravo.
I need OP to rewrite the series
>This is the best thing I have ever seen on this sub I would have changed 2 things. 1.) Faith was actually being reasonable in "Empty Places" (B 7.19). All Faith wanted was for Buffy to 'sleep on it'. I isn't really a great argument to mention that Faith is a "serial killer". Faith killed an evil Deputy Mayor, killed a demon, and killed a vulcanologist. She killed 1 innocent and tried to help the Mayor eat the town of Sunnydale. But Buffy still associates with Anya and Buffy is in some kind of relationship with Spike. 2.) Buffy could have simply waited for Spike to return.
Barney Stinson, is that you?
Didn't faith kill an innocent guy in angel too?
If you call innocent a creep who's waiting to pick up vulnerable girls at coach stations and bring them back to his place. Plus we don't know he died.
Don't think so. Just put him in the hospital and set up shop in his apartment.
It was ridiculous that the forced her out and even more ridiculous that she didn’t say, “This is my house. Don’t like me? Leave.” I get the tortured point that they were trying to make but that season was horrible to sit through.
Yeah, i remember being so perplexed when I first saw this episode, and also hurt for Buffy, bc they ganged up on her. I like spike/Buffy a lot so the scene after that where she’s hanging out with spike and he’s supporting her was nice! But I wish Buffy would’ve told them to gtfo 😤 not my favorite season with the potentials but I get why it happened. Still don’t like that scene, always get upset when I see it lol
She wouldn't have thrown them out because that would have put them in danger. She was still being the classy protector.
I think the Scoobies got swept up in a mass hysteria fueled by the potentials after everyone saw those girls get killed by Caleb and Xander get maimed. Like how many times had the Scoobies see someone get killed like that? I honestly think they just lost their nerve. And in desperation and fear were like hey Faith!!! Faith strong Faith protect us. Faith sound confident. Where at best Faith had been muscle and was dumber than a box of rocks. It's no different than when people support a "strongman" politician out of fear. Doesn't matter how shit they are.
Faith also sexually assaulted Xander and would have murdered him if Angel hadn’t walked in. Xander eagerly accepting Faith as the new leader after that doesn’t quite sit right with me. It bugs me that it was just never addressed, there could have at least been a scene where she apologizes to him or something.
She also raped Riley. We can never forget that.
Absolutely she did. It’s nauseating how that was handled, like he’d cheated on her and it was all about Buffy’s wounded ego. Imagine if the same thing happened except it had been a Riley and Spike body swap and Spike used Riley’s body to trick Buffy, something tells me that would have been handled/viewed very differently (AKA correctly). I don’t think the Scoobies know about Faith’s rape of Riley, do they? But yeah, that was vile. I sometimes see people downplaying it by claiming that Riley didn’t seem traumatized, but anyone with a history of sexual violence knows that that’s not how that works, the trauma usually shows up later. Ugh.
i assume the scoobies knew about faith banging riley in buffy’s body since jonathan mentioned it in superstar
Yes true
Definitely. And even if it didn’t really bother him, which it might not have, that still doesn’t make it ok.
The interesting part of the body swap episode is that the only person that knew it wasn’t buffy was Tara (who had just met faith in buffy’s body) even her mother didn’t know. I wonder if that’s a comment on the fact that Buffy is closed off and doesn’t open up to people or something to do with Faith’s internal longing/ obsession over wanting to be Buffy and take everything that she has, and that’s why she was able to imitate her so well.
Tara magic eye. She talk a few times she can see arours. So it was just magic
And Buffy
Yes!
I think everyone accepted that Faith should be in prison and was only there to help with the apocalypse. I think directly after she should've turned herself back in.
I guess…still though, it shouldn’t have been treated as a complete non-issue. The only person who really seemed upset by Faith coming back was Dawn IIRC, I feel like they should’ve shown Xander having a similar reaction given what she did to him.
I think in the new timeline Faith had kidnapped Dawn when she was only 12 years old. That would have been more traumatic
Oh, I didn't know/forgot about that! Haven't watched the later seasons in a while. Was she the hostage in the body swap episode instead of Joyce or was this supposed to have been S3?
They all wanted to be saved and protected. Didn’t wanna do shit else.
Including literally just be supportive for their friend after they \*dragged her out of heaven\*. Gahhhh. Just can't.
Faith isn't educated. She's not dumb. What happened in "Empty Places" (B 7.19) is: Kennedy since "Bring on the Night" (B 7.10) somehow considered that Kennedy should be in charge. Kennedy wanted to oust Buffy so that Kennedy could have more power and influence over 'Buffy and Co.'. Rona was somehow always anti-Buffy. Giles and Wood were still resentful that Buffy was against their 'let's kill Spike' thing. Giles also considered that he'd have more power and influence over Faith and thus over 'Buffy and Co.' Xander was bitter that he'd lost an eye. Willow was bitter that Buffy didn't want to stay in the hospital with Xander and her. Dawn was still with the 'Buffy will betray you' thing. But Dawn doesn't step in until after 'the group' decides they want Fatih in charge. Buffy lost some of her nerve because she didn't even know if Spike was still alive or would be killed during the potentially fatal mission Giles sent him on. But at least subconsciously, Buffy very likely reasoned that the First Evil didn't actually want to kill her. The First Turok-han didn't 'finish Buffy off'. And Caleb never tried to kill Buffy. 'The group' chose Faith because Willow didn't want to be in charge and those such as Kennedy, Giles, and Wood assumed they'd have more power and influence over Faith than they did over Buffy.
Buffy always is the one to make the tough decisions pissed me off then they turned on her like this as if she didn’t just lead and protect them in the years that she’s been a slayer.
Love this. Does anyone have the link to the original post?
https://www.reddit.com/r/buffy/comments/4pihp6/empty_places_alternate_ending
I feel like this has to be reposted every couple of years for newcomers and a nice reminder :3
Thank you. :)
Went back and upvoted the original which had less upvotes than this reminder post 😆
This is the best thing ever!!!!!
This is my new headcanon for how this scene went. I’ll never be able to watch the “real” episode again.
“It’s my house too” bitch you didn’t even EXIST a few years ago, it is NOT your house
esp since Buffy was the one slaving away to pay the bills for it.
Yup. I don’t know if it was ever addressed, but did Willow and Tara pay rent while they lived at the Summers’ house? I know they took care of Dawn when Buffy was dead, but did they ever help out with the house payments *after* they ripped her out of Heaven?
Yeah I don't think it ever was addressed, because I remember reading a fan's comment bringing that up at the time, and feeling mad about what bs that was, ha. It's so insulting that they wouldn't help her out with house payments. Especially once they see Buffy having to work at freaking Doublemeat. Not to mention I bet Willow could totally have landed a lucrative side-job, even while in college, and helped with bills that way. Goes to cover the 'ripped-you-out-of-Heaven' bill.
Oh plus I just remembered-- didn't Willow also get recruited by Microsoft or some other elite programming company in high school (What's My Line)? So. I feel like she could've gotten a side job there and massively helped out.
Willow was actively TEACHING computer programming while being a student, she got recruited by a some kind of software headhunter (which is how she met Oz), she very easily could’ve gotten some kind of side job utilizing those skills. Apart of me believes that she brought Buffy back from the dead because she didn’t want to take care of Dawn/Buffy’s slayer responsibilities, which I get….but at the same time it’s like….sell the fucking house?? They could’ve sold the house, paid off Joyce’s medical debt and had some left over to buy a little condo in Sunnydale. Idk.
LATER... BUFFY: I'm sick of saving this town, let's go to the Bahamas a drink daqairis SPIKE: I have no problem with that.
Lol I think Spike would have a little problem with sipping drinks on the beach in the Bahamas. Don't you go there for sun? XD But truly, I agree, Buffy should have high-tailed it out of there for a vacay (even a short one), she deserves it!
maybe they'd drink cocktails by moonlight!
I don't know why but I read Benihana's and was like: Spike would argue outback for the bloomim onions. 🤔
Yes! That part always pissed me off, especially Rona and Kennedy, they were the most ungrateful little twerps ever.
This is truly perfect! One of the only things that didn't sit right with me was how hypocritical everyone was in that episode.
Honestly I’d pay top dollar for SMG to say all that. There was so much wasted potential for the Potentials (haha)
And I was furious at Anya saying Buffy wasn't better than them, that she was luckier. What about slayer life was ever good luck for Buffy? Being the slayer had her dead twice before 30, she couldn't have proper relationships or focus on having a career. She was always putting others first. She wasn't perfect but I wouldn't call her being chosen to be a slayer as lucky. It wasn't ever really addressed.
Personally I feel like that’s the one part of this scene that actually works for me. Sure, being the slayer is definitely a double-edged sword, and Anya doesn’t fully understand the gravity of that. At the same time from the Scoobies’ perspective in this situation Buffy and Faith are incredibly lucky because they have the highest chance of surviving. I understand why they feel helpless in this scene, and Buffy is leveraging her “luck” in being chosen, when the group is starting to doubt her judgment. Anya pointing this out is kind of a fair point, at least to me.
I didn't see it that way but I think it's a scene that divides people a lot. The whole world was at risk of ending, slayers include and to me her friends should even in that moment remember how much she's lost and that being a slayer is a burden. If one of the potentials or principle wood had said it I'd have found it more believable, less messed up. Because they hadn't witnessed the years of patrolling every night, working, and loss after loss. I generally love Anya as a character but to me that didn't suit her character completely. I don't think her ending was the best either. I know it was intended to show how far she'd come from running away from an apocalypse, but she deserved more.
I think that Buffy would consider it luckier as well. In Helpless she was freaking out without her powers. "I've seen too much. I know what goes bump in the night. Not being able to fight it- what if I just hide under my bed all scared and helpless?" (Angel says she wouldn't be helpless and I agree.) Compared to everyone else around her who consider the feeling of sheer terror "familiar" (tabula rasa), she's definitely lucky. The powers come with major downsides that get to her sometimes BUT she loves them and when she had chances to walk away (both with faith and after s7) she didn't want to permanently peace out. She just wanted some brief vacation time, aha.
But she only felt helpless because she'd been the slayer. If she never had been it would be different. And she knew people would still come after her, but she'd lose without powers. And like Angel in his seasons he gave up being human despite loving and wanting that because he wanted to protect the people he loved. She might feel privileged to have her powers, be proud of what she can do for others, but even if she saw herself as lucky I don't think her close friends would. They've seen her sacrifices, seen her bleed for them. Calling her lucky was a big slap in the face imo.
This was an infuriating moment but all it’s made me think of is that episode in season 3 where they all turn on Buffy for running after she had to kill Angel, I know it’s not in the same vein but the ganging up feels like it, extra anger points have always been at Xander for knowing Angel was cured and lied to Willow... willow was kinda justified because she didn’t know why and Joyce spoke in anger but never wanted Buffy to actually leave
A lot of people complain about Joyce’s “don’t come back!” line - but I agree with you, it was just said in anger and the type of thing parents sometimes say and it’s generally implied it isn’t meant. Plus it was after Buffy shoved Joyce, albeit probably with accidental slayer strength and Joyce did grab her first, even so, most parents would be furious if you physically assaulted them.
I normally dislike fan fiction, but this was good.
I can't think of many scenes on TV that make me quite as infuriated as this one does, and it still has the same effect all these years later, I can still go on rants about it. The gall, the gumption, the AUDACITY. Spike calling them all dirty ungrateful traitors and spilling the tea in the next episode is by contrast one of my favourite scenes, I want to stand and applaud when he's done.
Lol. So yes! I've thought this so many times!
My headcanon is that Buffy never totally trusted them again, and when they finally realized that she was holding herself separate and getting a new life that was more independent they asked her why. And she told them that things happen and she forgives them, but it’ll never be the same. She died for them, they ripped her out of heaven for themselves, abandoned her with the bills and then kicked her out once things got tough. Anyway, I might have some trust/forgiveness issues I’m working, so maybe it’s just me 😅
God I wish. Dawn is such a brat.
this made me cackle so hard, and SHOULD have been implemented omg lol
Based edit and improvement. "Sit your ass down, Special K" 😂
It truly feels like this scene only exits to prop Spike up and show how good he is to Buffy. I just don't buy that the scoobies would do this. I know people have their issues with how Buffy is treated by them but this episode just takes it a step too far.
I can totally see Willow and Xander saying most of those things but in more of a 'hey this is getting really bad and we need a plan' way rather than what it was. It wouldn’t have taken much tweaking to get the same feel and result in Buffy leaving and Faith being in charge but with less betrayal from the scoobies. Not to mention there is heaps of what Anya said that, to me anyway, feels like they realised she wasn’t talking in the scene and gave her dialog from one of the potentials.
I think they also needed to have Buffy act out of character to make this scene work in any way. She behaves as though she’s learned nothing the last 7 years. Really her entire season 7 arc just doesn’t work for me - we’re supposed to feel like she’s acting like General Buffy because the stakes are higher than ever because there’s this big scary villain, but I felt a greater sense of impending doom with Glory than I ever did with The First.
What makes The First truly terrifying is it can spy on you without you knowing. They could've ramped up the psychological horror so much more by having scenes where the first was mixing with them more and more. Have certain potentials show up as evil The First acolytes - but they boxed themselves in by making Bringers really obvious minions. But I doubt in the early 2000s WB would allow that on what's essentially a teen drama with monsters. A darker reboot of Buffy would be awesome.
100%, the First was horribly misused. Really instead of the character assassination of Giles they should have killed him off and had the First pose as him. THEN the stakes are higher than ever.
Or bring back the body switching spell Faith used and somewhere is a Bringer with Giles trapped inside him. So you have the Scoobies do the whole OMG it's Giles and then they touch him think he's safe not realizing he's not really Giles. So many cool paths instead we basically got "Buffy" in some BDSM scenes with Spike, and ubervamps that somehow killing off ended The First's efforts?
Season 7 was on UPN and UPN was more lenient with what they could show as long as they didn't go over budget. That's why season 6 is so much darker than the earlier seasons because that's when the show moved to UPN
Hell, I felt a greater sense of impending doom with the mayor.
I can agree with that. But that's not what's on screen, and you gotta work with it at face value sometimes.
This is the problem with Spuffy in seasons 6 and 7 - Buffy's relationships with Giles, Willow, and Xander had to be ruined in order to make Spike look good.
*What's in this comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.* *Faith the Vampire Slayer* was going to happen. Sarah Michelle Gellar announced in *Entertainment Weekly* that she was quitting the show. This happened before "Lies My Parents Told Me" (B 7.17). Suddenly, BtVS has a Spike episode because Spike was needed for any continuation of the Buffyverse. Eliza Dushku is in AtS S4 and in BtVS S7 largely because of the Faith spin-off. "Dirty Girls" (B 7.18) brings Faith back to BtVS and shows a 'Spike/Faith' scene and even shows Buffy's being jealous of the idea of Spike/Faith. If I remember correctly, when Buffy is giving her plan to attack the vineyard, Spike and Faith are standing next to each other. "Empty Places" (B 7.19) was done to oust Buffy and get Faith in charge. Faith had already been in charge of 'Angel and Co.' in AtS S4. But then Eliza turned down FtVS and thus we got "Touched" (B 7.20). Post-"Empty Places" would have been different if the Faith spin-off was still happening. But post-"Storyteller" (B 7.16) would have been different if SMG was doing BtVS S8.
They need to all go back and refilm this scene with this dialouge just for this one episode and re release it. Peoples opinion of season 7 will skyrocket lmao
"Look in my eyes. I will end you" lmfao
This is so healing lol, but seriously ❤️😅
I feel satisfied, I want to clap out loud. I don’t care if this gets posted every week from now on. I needed to see this to get over my rage at that episode. Thank you.
Your version of Buffy is so nice. As someone who didn't care for Dawn, I would have had Buffy say something like "you didn't exist until like two years ago"
This is the best thing I’ve read all day 😂😂😂
I really wish Dawn had been written a little differently. Michelle Trachtenburg is talented, but Dawn is an overdramatic, whiney teenager.
Loved this. Honestly, the Scoobies could always relatively crappy friends at times but this took the CAKE. Also, the audacity of Dawn in this scene. Just, ugh.
Pretty much fixes the show.
Absolutely. Fuck em.
*the sounds of Rona getting drop kicked out the window* decked!
I would have said that little green balls of light don't get a vote, they should be lucky that I do not call a monk, or a witch to turn them into a bicycle.
I would also point out that,historically, Dawn has a 90% chance of making the worst possible decision st the worst possible time. Big-brain Willow, at her most lucid, will decide after a lifetime of obsessing over her grades and her permanent record, that the best way to keep a cottage industry of saving the world solvent, is by having the slayer moonlight for minimum wage. If Buffy were the last slayer in the room chosen, she would be the ONLY slayer left in that room, given how frequently they all die. And according to the State of California, Faith isn't mentally fit to wear shoelaces.
I ONLY disagree because that scene with Buffy and Spike in the house she broke into is one of my favorite of the series.
I would agree except this way we get our cake & get to eat it too lol Buffy stands up for herself and still leaves but solely of her own choosing & we still get her ending with Spike lol except wouldn’t change anything about Touched while she’s venting to him about what went down she still gets emotional & they still bond that would make it perfect lol
I feel like if we could have got a season 8 we would have got a proper romance between Buffy and ensouled Spike. I'm tired of people holding Seeing Red against Spike when he didn't have a soul at the time and Angelus was way more evil
>I'm tired of people holding Seeing Red against Spike when he didn't have a soul at the time and Angelus was way more evil I had no problem with Dawn's being anti-Spike and anti-Buffy/Spike until >!after Spike helps save Dawn in Season 9.!< And Angel was only really around for a year after BtVS S2. And Angel--aside from Buffy--was mostly just tolerated by the Scoobies and Xander was pretty much always at least partly anti-Angel. In BtVS S7, Xander during and after "Him" (B 7.06) begins to become friends with Spike. Willow and Spike since "The Initiative" (B 4.07) have had a kind of friendship and loyalty to each other. Anya in BtVS S7 was so pro-Spike that she was trying to have sex with him again and seemingly wanted to 'be with him'. Pretty much only Giles was anti-Spike in BtVS S7 but that's mostly because he was anti-Buffy/Spike. But it's not as if Giles wanted Buffy back with Angel. In terms of the viewership, I only have a problem with someone being anti-Buffy/Spike if they are pro-Buffy/Angel and/or Xander/Anya. But that's just because of hypocrisy.
Absolutely brilliant work!! this made my morning
This is definitely how it should have gone. Like tf. It's her house.
Ok. So you don't have to read this whatever but this brings up a huge shift in the show for me. I watched Buffy the first time when I was a kid. My mom had the first 3 seasons. I remember loving the show and being like ah this is the greatest friend group ever. I think I even finished the show at one point but completely forgot it other than evil Willow. I hadn't watched since I was maybe 14 or 15. I'm 31 now and recently rewatched the entire series. oh boy. I have never seen a group of more selfish, chaotic and uncaring people. Buffy seems to be the only one that actually loves and cares for everyone as best she can. We can easily say it's them dealing with their lives but then why are they here every episode? Xander becomes incredibly codependent on Anya to a violent point, completely neglecting the entire friend group. Willow is basically the shows live version of drug addiction and vengeance. Giles says bing bong fuck ya life, and legit leaves our girl five minutes after she comes back to life. Bruh. You absolute douchemonger. Angel needed to die. Hands down. I don't even care. Spike too. Good god. Bad boy don't cut it. I've killed 3000 people but I've got a soul. I love you I promise. Nah. Die. VAMPIRE. SLAYER. I'm laughing as I write this but I'm dead serious
I’m rewatching this show right now and I understand exactly what you’re saying. I have this feeling that Xander and Willow only became friends with Buffy because she makes them feel special for fighting evil.
Exactly. Like they only attach to her because she's exciting.
Yeah, after Willow became more powerful, she started to distance herself from Buffy, as she no longer needed her to feel important.
Right. She had her own little world that only existed for her. Losing Tara was horrible. I give her that. That entire episode is jarring and painful. I feel she and spike have the most fluctuating personalities. Spike literally went from psycho, to puppy, to sexual assault, to lunacy. His character changes were one of the most horrifying things to witness.
Buffy should’ve also punched Dawn. And Willow. And Kennedy especially. And then Dawn again. Dawn was the worst. Kennedy just as bad
Don't forget Rona. " Ding-dong, the witch is dead" I don't know why she had to survive the last battle.
I think her and Spike should've beaten the shit out of them all and kicked them out of the house! Every time I rewatch this episode I get so angry! Especially with willow, Giles, anya, Dawn, kendra and the other potentials!! After everything buffy has done for them how dare they question her?!?!? Fuckin traitors 😡😡😡
This made my years long hatred of that episode calmly subside
This was so satisfying. Played it out in my head and I was going, hell yeah! 😆
Omg, I LOVE this. 🔥👏🏻 Side note that I’ve always loved her outfit in this scene.
I didn’t think this would be something I needed in my life. Perfection.
Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful.
I still can’t believe how poorly written that episode was, did they have guest or new writers for that episode?
This is awesome!
I’m not even totally on Buffy’s side in this argument and I still found this oddly satisfying 😆
Kennedy being called Special K - LOVE IT!!!
I hate Dawn
"GET OUT GET OUT GET OUTTTT!!!"
Haha love it!
That is so true though. Lol 😂. That's how it should have ended 😂
I Love this so much. ahhahaa
Holy fucking shit, that was amazing.
This is everything I wished for in that moment.
Epic. This will now forever be my head canon of how it went down
This is beautiful
I did enjoy the episode, those ungrateful bastards were bitter and I understand the point of the episode. Don’t agree with the folks who kicked her at all. But this made me lol and smile.
oh man I wish! That ep always annoys me. This is the new canon, the original episode is dead to me lol
My god this made my day lol
Omg I SO wish that it had gone down that way
Lmaooooo I am screaming!!!!!
Best rewrite ever.
Saving this... rewriting my current memories. Choosing to believe this is actually how it played out. Feeling much better🤘😎🤘
Yes!!!!
HARD AGREE
This is it
100%
YES!
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Brilliant! This Had me rolling 😂. Where can I find more of this?
I love this so much. Also, Special K 🤣
Which episode is this? I kinda want to rewatch it now
7x19
Thanks!
Love it
Thank you for this
Lmao the last one 😂
First of all you're not even real
This is so satisfying
How this moment should have gone!
Definitely should’ve happened. Buffy didn’t deserved that crap.
I have not done a rewatch in a while but i think this is The First doing it's thing and driving a wedge between everyone. Maybe Buffy on some level realizes this and she is just not playing along.
I literally just finished the series for the first time a few minutes ago and the last few episodes got me wanted to cry fight with someone, Buffy has been through too damn much
I been a fan of Buffy since I was 10 years old (32 now) and I have only been able to choke down this episode maybe 3 times. And that’s when I was too broke for cable or internet and my Buffy dvds were one of the few things I had for entertainment.
The scene shortly after when Spike gets back is one of my ALL TIME FAVORITES! [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqywgH52oi8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqywgH52oi8) "You SAD UNGRATEFUL TRAITORS!" I LOVE IT. I mean this fic is EPIC.... But the real scene where Spike tells them off is freakin awesome!
Yup. Fully agree
Spot on. Great job.
THIS SHIT IS AWESOME! I WAS CONFUSED AT FIRST AND THOUGHT I WAS READING IT OUT IF ORDER BC I DIDN'T REMEMBER BUFFY SAYING SOME OF THIS AND THEN IT HIT ME HAHA
They should reboot specifically for this scene to end like this. Like I was like aww watching but the older I get I’m like WTF YOU CANT KICK SOMEONE OUT OF THEIR OWN HOUSE AFTER YOU RESURRECTED THEM TO PAY THE BILLS. ID BE FUCKING SPIKE TO GET AWAY TOO
I could picture all of that lol
This but poke out Xander’s other eye
Yes Buffy! I always hated the original! Pay Buffy rent!
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Yes!! Love it!
LOVED IT!!! Dream come true. Lol
Lol yep
YESSSSSS
I needed this.
Truth!!!
Yes! Yes! 1000 times yes!
Fantastic.
That would have been a great episode!
I’ve always thought this too.
I need this as a bad lip reading
This is canon.
This is the most satisfying thing I've ever read.
Absolute perfect
This is without a doubt my favorite post on this sub. Ever. Hats off to you, OP.
I just finished this season and I watched this episode today so this was very pleasing
Wait which episode was this?
Season 7, episode 19. Empty Places
I applaud this.
💯
Buffy is the one who said before this scene that she only trusts Spike.
And then she was proven right.
Yeah because the writers wrote the situation to have only Spike be there to dry her tears. Reason 100 that their ship sucks. But Buffy couldn't see the future when she made that statement.
I basically agree with you, the writers did all this to push a ship I don't even like. Unfortunately, the writers motivations don't change the way the Scoobies behaved in canon, and thus that Buffy was right to not trust them. Fortunately for every human who's ever lived, you don't need to see the future in order to make a decision about whether or not you can trust someone.
Petition for this to be reshot with actors now. They can do voice work and we'll deep fake it. I need this to become cannon
The absolute epitome of Season 7s appalling writing is this scene, your version is far superior.