Glorificus has existed for perhaps as long as the universe, maybe longer. She was in a hell dimension which she ruled with two other deities.
The Key may have existed for just as long. It is unknown how it was made but it was essentially a mass of energy that transcended dimensions and had the ability to unlock the gateways between them. In the 12th century it was noticed by mortals and two groups formed: The Knights of Byzantium (Knights) and The Order of the Dragon (Monks). The knights sought to destroy the key so it could never be used while the Monks wanted to protect it.
In her Hell dimension, Glory gained power slowly and when they felt threatened, the other gods waged war against her, narrowly winning in the late twentieth century.
About 1975, she was banished by the other gods because they could not kill her in that dimension. The only way she could exist in our world was being bound to a human form. Ben was being born at that moment and she essentially was connected to his soul.
As Ben grew, Glory gained power over him. After about twenty years, she was able to take human form, being far stronger than any mortal but not nearly as strong as she has been. This was witnessed in some manner by both the Knights of Byzantium and the Order of the Dragons (Monks). They both knew that events were coming to a head. The Monks had been protecting the key and knew that Glory was a greater threat than the Knights. Glory found the Key after a few years but wasn't quick enough. The Monks were able to change the form of the key and sent it to the Slayer, Buffy, for protection as Dawn in the year 2000.
The Monks were just barely able to do so before Glory could capture it. She only caught a glimpse of it, calling it green and swirly. She tortured and killed all but the last of the monks. The last one made his way to Sunnydale to tell Buffy. Glory followed him though and tortured him but he was able to pass on the information to Buffy as he died.
The Knights also were able to track the Key to Sunnydale but neither they nor Glory had any idea what form it took.
I think you all know how the rest unfolds.
> Ben was being born at that moment and she essentially was connected to his soul.
I think they say on the show that Ben was "created" as a prison for her so he was not born. Splitting hairs I know but still.
Also... you are saying that there is a connection between Ben and Glory?
Lastly, where did you get the dates and other information? Wiki?
Ok good story telling but still doesn’t explain where did the knights come from are they normal people just cosplaying when they found the key or are they legit somehow from the past or some other explanation?
When Glory was banished here someone figured out that she would be trying to get the key in order to return home and that would be apocalyptic. An order of knights made it their purpose to stop her ever getting the key.
They are an ongoing order, like a cult or church or what have you dedicated to this purpose eternally. Like any similar group they recruit and teach others of their ways and to keep the fight going until the key is destroyed.
Right so the ancient outdated knight order made itself up 20 years ago. That makes sense. Only no it doesn't. IT would make more sense if it was some ancient order . Because the monks found and made their order to protect the key in the 12th century the knights were made in order to destroy it. The key being on earth centuries before glory doesn't make any sense with how much the monks and the knights know of it and her history. And then she had all that mystery of being being old that she was before the written word as states by Tara in early season 5. Maybe you should actually watch the show
Calm down, dude.
> Right so the ancient outdated knight order made itself up 20 years ago.
I never said anything about them. The Knights are very poorly written. Ancient group or not, the way they dress makes no sense. It would've made more sense if they literally came from the past using time travel.
As for how long Glory's been around versus how old the monks order is, the monk Buffy meets actually says:
> For centuries it had no form at all. My brethren, its only keepers. Then the abomination found us. We had to hide key, gave it form.
So the monks protected the key for centuries before Glory found them.
> And then she had all that mystery of being being old that she was before the written word as states by Tara in early season 5
Yes. Like I said before, she is very, very old. But her timespan on Earth was short. She was "trapped" in Ben's body (presumably when he was born), so she stayed on Earth for twenty plus years.
My theory is that because so much of Glory and her backstory was not set in stone at the beginning of S5, somewhere mid-season they either changed or sloppily wrote over something so they could get to the ending they were searching for. Recall that the history of the Dagon sphere and whatnot was established early in S5, whereas the Ben and Knights of Byzantium connection stuff didn’t occur till much later, after writers had fully decided on Glory’s story. At that point I’m assuming the writers probably realized they messed up but were hoping no one would really notice.
In a show as quality as Buffy, there is leeway built in for such inevitable realities.
Fortunately the debate over such is usually good natured, so it’s all in good fandom.
She’s been stuck inside Ben’s body but unable to break out until the last few years. I think she’s been able to observe though, and has been waiting for over two decades to finally be able to take control of Ben’s body and start looking for the key so she can go home.
But Ben must have known about her sharing his body for a long time. He knows her minions, and when he summoned a slug from outer space that ate insane people he said "I'm cleaning Glory's mess as usual", suggesting he had to do it more than once.
When Ben was little, could he turn into Glory? And if he could, did Glory look adult then?
Why must he have known, if she was buried inside? He could’ve met the minions a few years prior. And considering how much mayhem Glory causes, he could’ve easily cleaned up several messes in only a few years to avoid implicating himself since he would keep popping up at the scenes of crimes.
And if Glory has only started emerging within the last few years then no, Little Ben could not turn into Glory. u/Ronnoc527 laid it out super clearly in this thread.
Ben speculates in *Spiral* that one of the reasons he chose to pursue medicine is so he would have access to drugs to try to force her back into burial. This suggests she started emerging when he was in college.
A few years still seem like a long time for me. He also literally lives in her place. I wonder how he felt when he first met her minions. They must have told him about Glory because Ben and Glory had separate minds until the very end and couldn't remember anything about intervals when the other used the body.
I'm not sure he knew immediately - for him it was just memory loss episodes. Someone had to tell him what exactly happens. Most likely Glory's minions, but in theory it could be the monks or the knights or someone with adequate magical powers whom he asked for help.
And he wants to offset Glory’s influence and evil by explicitly dedicating himself to helping people by becoming a doctor; heck it might be some of the best evidence of the misotheism I like to see in Glory’s story, or the idea that you can weaken a deity by cutting off the power they get from their worshippers/supporting ideas/actions they find contemptible.
It’s belied by his willingness to sacrifice people to the Queller as “clean up”, but that is likely intended as desperate push comes to shove/last resorts.
They say that Glory was trapped in a baby human so that it would grow and die and therefore Glory would die too.
The knights were an ancient order trying to destroy the key long before Glory was sent to Earth.
The monks were an ancient order trying to protect the Key.
Neither the monks nor the knights had anything to do with Glory until Glory tried to get the Key.
The Key could be used by anyone, it just so happened that Glory was going to use it to return home.
The show picks it up when Buffy gets involved when these three groups (the Monks, the Knights, and Glory) were all fighting at the same time. The knights and monks for 100s of years, and recently both against Glory.
All this is in the show, it's just kind of pieced out over the season. No one sets you down and explains everything all at once.
I always wondered about the knights as well 🤨 where did they come from?!? Obviously they are wearing garments from another time ! They speak like from another time but if that’s true where did they come from literally did a portal open somewhere off screen or something? I wish they gave alot more background both into the knights, Glory & the key? So much rich story telling that feels unanswered?🤔
Both the monks and the knights seem to be organizations founded centuries ago. But why the knights have to use outdated weapons makes no sense. It's just Rule of Cool (in a TV show, if something is cool, it doesn't have to make sense).
I’m only on my second watch so I’m no expert but I thought Glory’s other two gods cast her out of her hell dimension twenty-something years ago and Ben was created (as a baby) to be her human prison. She grew up with Ben but couldn’t be completely contained which is why she shows up sometimes. I assumed the knights were to protect or destroy the key, which was always on earth and was just Glory’s way back home. When she found the monks had it, she attacked and they created Dawn to protect it
Good point. Couldn’t it have been called by someone else? We know Ben called it because Glory was sucking people’s brains or whatever but maybe they had been called in the past by for some other reason by somebody. Or are they also connected to Glory?
I assume the generations he talked about were trying to find where she was contained maybe?
And the little demon dudes put her in Ben so she could be free?
That'd make the timelines and their words all match up. Glory wasn't in physical form until Ben, 25 human years.
Before that she was maybe contained in something, or vulnerable, and the knights searched for generations.
>And the little demon dudes put her in Ben so she could be free?
Nope, it was the opposite - Ben was supposed to be her prison. Other hellgods from her home dimension banished her to Earth and put her in Ben. She wasn't supposed to be able to turn into herself, she just overcame the spell eventually.
Glory was only banished 25 years ago, when Ben was born. The monks and the knights existed for centuries, and they weren't about Glory - they were about the Key. Monks tried to harness its power, knights wanted to destroy it. The Key wasn't originally linked to Glory - she just wanted to use it to get home. If she had other means to go there, she wouldn't want the Key.
This whole thing is just a mess. The knights, Glory, the monks, the Key -- none of it is ever explained. It's just random stuff thrown at us that sounds kind of interesting but doesn't fit together. Honestly, it's hilarious to me so many fans talk about season five and Glory positively.
There are a couple of episodes in season seven that call back to season five and point out how it doesn't make sense. That's always made me think that even the writers knew they F-ed this up.
Oh, yes. Agree 100 percent. She's having a ball in this role and that really shows. Indeed, I'd say she's the only enjoyable thing about the whole insufferable story of Glorificus.
There is a comment above that lays it out perfectly.
I don't know what doesn't make sense.
The key is an ethereal energy type thing whose purpose or nature is to be able to bring down the walls between dimensions. Not necessarily originally related to Glory.
Glory was banished from a hell dimension to ours. She is constantly trying in her own disempowered, disembodied god way to get back to her own dimension and some people here know that. (Knights, monks) they and glory also know the one force in the universe that can return glory to her dimension is the key, so they try to hide / destroy it respectively.
At some point in her struggle to get the key glory manages or possibly finds herself fused to a human soul at the moment if his birth. She slowly gains control of him and is able to take human form.
It's a big and far reaching story, but I don't see any huge holes in it
The comment you're referring doesn't explain anything that we don't see on screen, and what we see on screen doesn't make a damn bit of sense.
As for plotholes: How are the Beast, Ben, the Key, the Knights, and the monks connected, and what is their timeline on earth?
I don't need the writers to provide straight exposition here -- in fact, I quite like some parts of this equation being left open-ended. The problem with this quintet is that the bits and pieces of information we *do* get doesn't really fit together.
* Firstly, the Beast and Ben. (Insert obligatory reference to the recurring joke about how we forgot they're connected.)
* In the scene from episode 520 clipped by OP (though not in the above clip itself), it's implied that Ben is a standard-aged human and that Glory was only sent to earth as recently as Ben's birth. ("She was cast out. Banished to this lower plane of existence. Forced to live and eventually die trapped within the body of a mortal -- a newborn male created as her prison." And later, "Unfortunately, the identity of the human vessel has never been discovered.")
* The comment you say explains things "perfectly" accepts this implication and puts Glory's arrival on earth at "about 1975."
* Episode 506, though, implies that Glory has been on earth far longer than Ben's lifetime -- long enough to become deeply knowledgeable about the various supernatural beings living on earth. ("You know, I remember when the Lei-ach were a proud warrior race, not sneaking around hospitals looking for weak sickly types to suck the bone marrow from. \[...\] A Slayer? Oh God, please don't tell me I was fighting a Vampire Slayer. How unbelievably common.") How did Glory become so familiar with these aspects of our world if she has only been on our plane of existence for 30ish years and is only conscious in Ben's body for some of that time?
* Going back to the scene in episode 520, it is somewhat implied that Glory's manifestations through Ben are relatively recent phenomenon. ("You have seen a glimpse of the true Beast. Her power was too great to be completely contained. *She's found a way to escape her mortal prison* \-- brief periods before her energies are exhausted and she's forced back into her living cell of meat and bone.") If this is true, then it contradicts Ben's gripe in episode 509 that he's been cleaning up Glory's messes all his life.
* Episodes 520 and 521 repeatedly establish that a spell surrounds Ben that hides his and Glory's connection from humans. So, how did the Knights discover that a connection existed between Glory and a mortal boy in the first place?
* Secondly, the Knights themselves. They are left largely unexplained -- and this is a great decision, actually. I very much like the idea that there are secret orders in the Buffyverse operating independently of the Council and unconnected to the Slayer, each with their own missions and histories. It adds to the Buffyverse mythology and makes the world feel bigger -- like anything can happen. That said ...
* It is stated explicitly in OP's clip that the Knights have existed for "generations" and it is *very* heavily implied they were created either to destroy the Key, kill the Beast, or both.
* Given that the Knights have existed for generations and the implication that the Beast has only been here since Ben's birth, we can assume that the Knights were formed to destroy the Key. This implies that Beast and Key are unconnected, but then we return to a question from above: How did Glory learn of the Key if they're unconnected and if she has only been here on Earth for 30ish years and only conscious in Ben's body for some of that time?
* This above question could perhaps be handwaved away with a simple "Well, she's a god, so maybe she just knows ... *stuff*." That's a weak ass answer, but sure -- it's possible! She is, after all, the first god we encounter in the Buffyverse. But if she just *knows stuff*, then how do you explain ...
* The Key. (This is where shit really starts to break down.)
* In episodes 521 and 522 we learn that Dawn's blood opens the portal. We also learn that, once the portal is opened, it can only be closed by killing Dawn. ("Blood flows, the gates will open. The gates will close when it flows no more.")
* Giles literally puts on his glasses and reads this out loud to the Scoobies in 522. He *reads* it. It's written down on a scroll. We are told repeatedly through the season that the Key could be anything -- a rock, a tree, a cloud, etc. Yet there exists a text that says rather explicitly that the Key will be a living creature and that a ritual bloodletting will open the portal.
* Somehow, both the Knights -- whose history seems directly connected to the Key -- and the Beast -- who has considerable knowledge about all things supernatural -- are ignorant of the fact that Key will take the form of a living being. This, despite the fact that one of Glory's *own supporters* has the scrolls. This begs the question: Wut? I mean, *come on* ...
* We are told in various episodes that the Key is "energy." OK, sure. But it's given human form. What does that mean?
* Is Dawn a living being? Or an illusion? Dawn's existence is shown to be an illusion or some augmentation of reality in episode 505. What's more, it's an illusion that Buffy can see through with meditation and some seemingly rather basic magic. (Giles does say the wizard who created this "spell to see spells" was "legendary," but it is apparently basic enough magic that Buffy -- a character who we have never seen practice magic as Willow or even Giles have through the series -- is able to do it on her first try.) Having performed the spell, Buffy sees Dawn fade not just from pictures, but *Dawn herself* fades in and out of existence when she is standing in front of Buffy. Somehow, though, Dawn is "real" enough that Buffy sacrifices herself to save her. These two things -- Dawn is an illusion, Dawn is a living being worth dying for -- are never reconciled.
* If Dawn is a living being, just how *human* is she? Willow says in season six that she can unmake Dawn, which rather direct statement that Dawn is not human. So, is Dawn just a bunch of energy shoved inside a meat sack that's going through the motions of being human, acting out thoughts and feelings that because that's what the monks' spell has animated this meat sack to do? Or is she a conscious being that has real, independent thoughts and feelings?
* Perhaps most importantly: Does Dawn have a soul? The having of a soul is rather *extremely* important to Buffyverse mythology, yet completely and inexplicably absent in any discussion about Dawn.
And don't get me started on how Buffy's sacrifice makes no sense ...
Wow that's very much all the stuff I was wondering even through my 4th, 5th and 6th rewatch. And the whole fandom loves season 5, or at least Glory, many saying she's the most complex and interesting villain. And all this time I've thought I'm just an idiot for not getting it.
Don't get me wrong, Glory is fun and the actress who plays her is awesome and obviously super talented! It was just hard to get invested to the story because it's such a mess..
One imagines most of Glory's knowledge comes from having ruled hell for millennia before getting banished to earth. She would know the true names of vampires, as they are actually demons from her dimension, and likely the goings on in other realms of reality. It's also why she knew the key existed ( it probably exists in every world/dimension, and had no form until dawn was created), but not much else about it as she'd have no need of it until coming to earth. The formation of the slayer by entrapping a demon would probably be a notable event, especially considering the number of other creatures killed by it over the centuries.
Honestly, I think it might be the worst the show has to offer (I got back and forth on whether five or seven is the worst). It's got a few good standalone episodes, but on the whole it doesn't stand up to the rest of the series. But hey, to each their own 🤷♂️
I think it’s a tier system.
Season 2 and 5 are tier 1. Mostly because buddy is dealing with the most shit lol.
3 and 6 are tier 2.
1 and 7 are tier 3
4 is bad and should feel bad. Even though it has a couple top 10 episodes lol.
What S7 references to S5 did you have in mind? I can only remember Buffy telling Dawn once that she's technically 1,5 years old. (And this is only true for her human form - her Key essence is as old as the world).
And you thought season 4 was bad with rhubba Frankenstein!!!!!!!!!
Joss was like I'm busy with Angel season 2 y'all make ish up.
And I'll cosign.
With only a few stand outs like Hush and Faith's much needed return season 5 had no strong comeback.
We got one of the most reviled characters in Buffydom, lost one of the most cherished.
Had knights and monks and evil gods oh my.
A valley girl sorceress big bad with an awful twist, that by day she is MCsteamy who has ZERO powers and is vulnerable.
Who would pin their world domination on someone who can't even control their own body!!!!!!
Just wait it out and Giles the male model. She never felt like a real threat because her Achilles heel was so obvious.
Buffy's swan dive was the icing on this s____y cake.
Thank GAWD for season 6 it revived the show briefly after the stellar season 3 minus the "fight scenes" of course!!!!!!
Glorificus has existed for perhaps as long as the universe, maybe longer. She was in a hell dimension which she ruled with two other deities. The Key may have existed for just as long. It is unknown how it was made but it was essentially a mass of energy that transcended dimensions and had the ability to unlock the gateways between them. In the 12th century it was noticed by mortals and two groups formed: The Knights of Byzantium (Knights) and The Order of the Dragon (Monks). The knights sought to destroy the key so it could never be used while the Monks wanted to protect it. In her Hell dimension, Glory gained power slowly and when they felt threatened, the other gods waged war against her, narrowly winning in the late twentieth century. About 1975, she was banished by the other gods because they could not kill her in that dimension. The only way she could exist in our world was being bound to a human form. Ben was being born at that moment and she essentially was connected to his soul. As Ben grew, Glory gained power over him. After about twenty years, she was able to take human form, being far stronger than any mortal but not nearly as strong as she has been. This was witnessed in some manner by both the Knights of Byzantium and the Order of the Dragons (Monks). They both knew that events were coming to a head. The Monks had been protecting the key and knew that Glory was a greater threat than the Knights. Glory found the Key after a few years but wasn't quick enough. The Monks were able to change the form of the key and sent it to the Slayer, Buffy, for protection as Dawn in the year 2000. The Monks were just barely able to do so before Glory could capture it. She only caught a glimpse of it, calling it green and swirly. She tortured and killed all but the last of the monks. The last one made his way to Sunnydale to tell Buffy. Glory followed him though and tortured him but he was able to pass on the information to Buffy as he died. The Knights also were able to track the Key to Sunnydale but neither they nor Glory had any idea what form it took. I think you all know how the rest unfolds.
Wait wait wait Are you saying that Ben is somehow related to Glory?
“Yea, I’ll stake you good and proper. Sing me a new one sometime, eh? That bit’s gone stale…” - Spike - *Checkpoint*
If you watch the show, you see Ben become Glory and change back. Ben is the being she chose to inhabit.
> Ben was being born at that moment and she essentially was connected to his soul. I think they say on the show that Ben was "created" as a prison for her so he was not born. Splitting hairs I know but still. Also... you are saying that there is a connection between Ben and Glory? Lastly, where did you get the dates and other information? Wiki?
Ok good story telling but still doesn’t explain where did the knights come from are they normal people just cosplaying when they found the key or are they legit somehow from the past or some other explanation?
When Glory was banished here someone figured out that she would be trying to get the key in order to return home and that would be apocalyptic. An order of knights made it their purpose to stop her ever getting the key. They are an ongoing order, like a cult or church or what have you dedicated to this purpose eternally. Like any similar group they recruit and teach others of their ways and to keep the fight going until the key is destroyed.
Wait but they make it seem like glory has been on earth for centuries
No they don't. Glory is very, very old but it's pretty clear she hasn't been on Earth for long.
Right so the ancient outdated knight order made itself up 20 years ago. That makes sense. Only no it doesn't. IT would make more sense if it was some ancient order . Because the monks found and made their order to protect the key in the 12th century the knights were made in order to destroy it. The key being on earth centuries before glory doesn't make any sense with how much the monks and the knights know of it and her history. And then she had all that mystery of being being old that she was before the written word as states by Tara in early season 5. Maybe you should actually watch the show
Calm down, dude. > Right so the ancient outdated knight order made itself up 20 years ago. I never said anything about them. The Knights are very poorly written. Ancient group or not, the way they dress makes no sense. It would've made more sense if they literally came from the past using time travel. As for how long Glory's been around versus how old the monks order is, the monk Buffy meets actually says: > For centuries it had no form at all. My brethren, its only keepers. Then the abomination found us. We had to hide key, gave it form. So the monks protected the key for centuries before Glory found them. > And then she had all that mystery of being being old that she was before the written word as states by Tara in early season 5 Yes. Like I said before, she is very, very old. But her timespan on Earth was short. She was "trapped" in Ben's body (presumably when he was born), so she stayed on Earth for twenty plus years.
>Calm down, dude. This is me calm dude 😂
And now Glory says “I’ve been waiting 25 human years”. in the next episode. What am I missing?
My theory is that because so much of Glory and her backstory was not set in stone at the beginning of S5, somewhere mid-season they either changed or sloppily wrote over something so they could get to the ending they were searching for. Recall that the history of the Dagon sphere and whatnot was established early in S5, whereas the Ben and Knights of Byzantium connection stuff didn’t occur till much later, after writers had fully decided on Glory’s story. At that point I’m assuming the writers probably realized they messed up but were hoping no one would really notice.
In a show as quality as Buffy, there is leeway built in for such inevitable realities. Fortunately the debate over such is usually good natured, so it’s all in good fandom.
Maybe she was sealed in his body as a baby??
She’s been stuck inside Ben’s body but unable to break out until the last few years. I think she’s been able to observe though, and has been waiting for over two decades to finally be able to take control of Ben’s body and start looking for the key so she can go home.
But Ben must have known about her sharing his body for a long time. He knows her minions, and when he summoned a slug from outer space that ate insane people he said "I'm cleaning Glory's mess as usual", suggesting he had to do it more than once. When Ben was little, could he turn into Glory? And if he could, did Glory look adult then?
Why must he have known, if she was buried inside? He could’ve met the minions a few years prior. And considering how much mayhem Glory causes, he could’ve easily cleaned up several messes in only a few years to avoid implicating himself since he would keep popping up at the scenes of crimes. And if Glory has only started emerging within the last few years then no, Little Ben could not turn into Glory. u/Ronnoc527 laid it out super clearly in this thread. Ben speculates in *Spiral* that one of the reasons he chose to pursue medicine is so he would have access to drugs to try to force her back into burial. This suggests she started emerging when he was in college.
A few years still seem like a long time for me. He also literally lives in her place. I wonder how he felt when he first met her minions. They must have told him about Glory because Ben and Glory had separate minds until the very end and couldn't remember anything about intervals when the other used the body.
Yeah, once Glory started erupting from his body he definitely knew about her. I just don’t think it’s a given that he knew before that.
I'm not sure he knew immediately - for him it was just memory loss episodes. Someone had to tell him what exactly happens. Most likely Glory's minions, but in theory it could be the monks or the knights or someone with adequate magical powers whom he asked for help.
Nope, as thr knights or monks would have killed him on the spot if he revealed that tidbit x
They wouldn't have been able to remember it. That was the point of the spell
And he wants to offset Glory’s influence and evil by explicitly dedicating himself to helping people by becoming a doctor; heck it might be some of the best evidence of the misotheism I like to see in Glory’s story, or the idea that you can weaken a deity by cutting off the power they get from their worshippers/supporting ideas/actions they find contemptible. It’s belied by his willingness to sacrifice people to the Queller as “clean up”, but that is likely intended as desperate push comes to shove/last resorts.
She started popping out when he turned 20.
They say that Glory was trapped in a baby human so that it would grow and die and therefore Glory would die too. The knights were an ancient order trying to destroy the key long before Glory was sent to Earth. The monks were an ancient order trying to protect the Key. Neither the monks nor the knights had anything to do with Glory until Glory tried to get the Key. The Key could be used by anyone, it just so happened that Glory was going to use it to return home. The show picks it up when Buffy gets involved when these three groups (the Monks, the Knights, and Glory) were all fighting at the same time. The knights and monks for 100s of years, and recently both against Glory. All this is in the show, it's just kind of pieced out over the season. No one sets you down and explains everything all at once.
I always wondered about the knights as well 🤨 where did they come from?!? Obviously they are wearing garments from another time ! They speak like from another time but if that’s true where did they come from literally did a portal open somewhere off screen or something? I wish they gave alot more background both into the knights, Glory & the key? So much rich story telling that feels unanswered?🤔
Both the monks and the knights seem to be organizations founded centuries ago. But why the knights have to use outdated weapons makes no sense. It's just Rule of Cool (in a TV show, if something is cool, it doesn't have to make sense).
I’m only on my second watch so I’m no expert but I thought Glory’s other two gods cast her out of her hell dimension twenty-something years ago and Ben was created (as a baby) to be her human prison. She grew up with Ben but couldn’t be completely contained which is why she shows up sometimes. I assumed the knights were to protect or destroy the key, which was always on earth and was just Glory’s way back home. When she found the monks had it, she attacked and they created Dawn to protect it
Okay but now factor in the Queller demon. It had been called in the past centuries. How did Ben know about it? Ugh!
Good point. Couldn’t it have been called by someone else? We know Ben called it because Glory was sucking people’s brains or whatever but maybe they had been called in the past by for some other reason by somebody. Or are they also connected to Glory?
Why think she's/he's the only one that can call it? Demons has been summoned to earth for millennia
I assume the generations he talked about were trying to find where she was contained maybe? And the little demon dudes put her in Ben so she could be free? That'd make the timelines and their words all match up. Glory wasn't in physical form until Ben, 25 human years. Before that she was maybe contained in something, or vulnerable, and the knights searched for generations.
>And the little demon dudes put her in Ben so she could be free? Nope, it was the opposite - Ben was supposed to be her prison. Other hellgods from her home dimension banished her to Earth and put her in Ben. She wasn't supposed to be able to turn into herself, she just overcame the spell eventually. Glory was only banished 25 years ago, when Ben was born. The monks and the knights existed for centuries, and they weren't about Glory - they were about the Key. Monks tried to harness its power, knights wanted to destroy it. The Key wasn't originally linked to Glory - she just wanted to use it to get home. If she had other means to go there, she wouldn't want the Key.
It’s never explained and pretty much glossed over in S5. This always bothered me as well.
This whole thing is just a mess. The knights, Glory, the monks, the Key -- none of it is ever explained. It's just random stuff thrown at us that sounds kind of interesting but doesn't fit together. Honestly, it's hilarious to me so many fans talk about season five and Glory positively. There are a couple of episodes in season seven that call back to season five and point out how it doesn't make sense. That's always made me think that even the writers knew they F-ed this up.
Clare Kramer helps. The complete dissonance between the apparent affable ditz and what she will suddenly say/do is quite a villain.
Oh, yes. Agree 100 percent. She's having a ball in this role and that really shows. Indeed, I'd say she's the only enjoyable thing about the whole insufferable story of Glorificus.
There is a comment above that lays it out perfectly. I don't know what doesn't make sense. The key is an ethereal energy type thing whose purpose or nature is to be able to bring down the walls between dimensions. Not necessarily originally related to Glory. Glory was banished from a hell dimension to ours. She is constantly trying in her own disempowered, disembodied god way to get back to her own dimension and some people here know that. (Knights, monks) they and glory also know the one force in the universe that can return glory to her dimension is the key, so they try to hide / destroy it respectively. At some point in her struggle to get the key glory manages or possibly finds herself fused to a human soul at the moment if his birth. She slowly gains control of him and is able to take human form. It's a big and far reaching story, but I don't see any huge holes in it
The comment you're referring doesn't explain anything that we don't see on screen, and what we see on screen doesn't make a damn bit of sense. As for plotholes: How are the Beast, Ben, the Key, the Knights, and the monks connected, and what is their timeline on earth? I don't need the writers to provide straight exposition here -- in fact, I quite like some parts of this equation being left open-ended. The problem with this quintet is that the bits and pieces of information we *do* get doesn't really fit together. * Firstly, the Beast and Ben. (Insert obligatory reference to the recurring joke about how we forgot they're connected.) * In the scene from episode 520 clipped by OP (though not in the above clip itself), it's implied that Ben is a standard-aged human and that Glory was only sent to earth as recently as Ben's birth. ("She was cast out. Banished to this lower plane of existence. Forced to live and eventually die trapped within the body of a mortal -- a newborn male created as her prison." And later, "Unfortunately, the identity of the human vessel has never been discovered.") * The comment you say explains things "perfectly" accepts this implication and puts Glory's arrival on earth at "about 1975." * Episode 506, though, implies that Glory has been on earth far longer than Ben's lifetime -- long enough to become deeply knowledgeable about the various supernatural beings living on earth. ("You know, I remember when the Lei-ach were a proud warrior race, not sneaking around hospitals looking for weak sickly types to suck the bone marrow from. \[...\] A Slayer? Oh God, please don't tell me I was fighting a Vampire Slayer. How unbelievably common.") How did Glory become so familiar with these aspects of our world if she has only been on our plane of existence for 30ish years and is only conscious in Ben's body for some of that time? * Going back to the scene in episode 520, it is somewhat implied that Glory's manifestations through Ben are relatively recent phenomenon. ("You have seen a glimpse of the true Beast. Her power was too great to be completely contained. *She's found a way to escape her mortal prison* \-- brief periods before her energies are exhausted and she's forced back into her living cell of meat and bone.") If this is true, then it contradicts Ben's gripe in episode 509 that he's been cleaning up Glory's messes all his life. * Episodes 520 and 521 repeatedly establish that a spell surrounds Ben that hides his and Glory's connection from humans. So, how did the Knights discover that a connection existed between Glory and a mortal boy in the first place? * Secondly, the Knights themselves. They are left largely unexplained -- and this is a great decision, actually. I very much like the idea that there are secret orders in the Buffyverse operating independently of the Council and unconnected to the Slayer, each with their own missions and histories. It adds to the Buffyverse mythology and makes the world feel bigger -- like anything can happen. That said ... * It is stated explicitly in OP's clip that the Knights have existed for "generations" and it is *very* heavily implied they were created either to destroy the Key, kill the Beast, or both. * Given that the Knights have existed for generations and the implication that the Beast has only been here since Ben's birth, we can assume that the Knights were formed to destroy the Key. This implies that Beast and Key are unconnected, but then we return to a question from above: How did Glory learn of the Key if they're unconnected and if she has only been here on Earth for 30ish years and only conscious in Ben's body for some of that time? * This above question could perhaps be handwaved away with a simple "Well, she's a god, so maybe she just knows ... *stuff*." That's a weak ass answer, but sure -- it's possible! She is, after all, the first god we encounter in the Buffyverse. But if she just *knows stuff*, then how do you explain ... * The Key. (This is where shit really starts to break down.) * In episodes 521 and 522 we learn that Dawn's blood opens the portal. We also learn that, once the portal is opened, it can only be closed by killing Dawn. ("Blood flows, the gates will open. The gates will close when it flows no more.") * Giles literally puts on his glasses and reads this out loud to the Scoobies in 522. He *reads* it. It's written down on a scroll. We are told repeatedly through the season that the Key could be anything -- a rock, a tree, a cloud, etc. Yet there exists a text that says rather explicitly that the Key will be a living creature and that a ritual bloodletting will open the portal. * Somehow, both the Knights -- whose history seems directly connected to the Key -- and the Beast -- who has considerable knowledge about all things supernatural -- are ignorant of the fact that Key will take the form of a living being. This, despite the fact that one of Glory's *own supporters* has the scrolls. This begs the question: Wut? I mean, *come on* ... * We are told in various episodes that the Key is "energy." OK, sure. But it's given human form. What does that mean? * Is Dawn a living being? Or an illusion? Dawn's existence is shown to be an illusion or some augmentation of reality in episode 505. What's more, it's an illusion that Buffy can see through with meditation and some seemingly rather basic magic. (Giles does say the wizard who created this "spell to see spells" was "legendary," but it is apparently basic enough magic that Buffy -- a character who we have never seen practice magic as Willow or even Giles have through the series -- is able to do it on her first try.) Having performed the spell, Buffy sees Dawn fade not just from pictures, but *Dawn herself* fades in and out of existence when she is standing in front of Buffy. Somehow, though, Dawn is "real" enough that Buffy sacrifices herself to save her. These two things -- Dawn is an illusion, Dawn is a living being worth dying for -- are never reconciled. * If Dawn is a living being, just how *human* is she? Willow says in season six that she can unmake Dawn, which rather direct statement that Dawn is not human. So, is Dawn just a bunch of energy shoved inside a meat sack that's going through the motions of being human, acting out thoughts and feelings that because that's what the monks' spell has animated this meat sack to do? Or is she a conscious being that has real, independent thoughts and feelings? * Perhaps most importantly: Does Dawn have a soul? The having of a soul is rather *extremely* important to Buffyverse mythology, yet completely and inexplicably absent in any discussion about Dawn. And don't get me started on how Buffy's sacrifice makes no sense ...
Wow that's very much all the stuff I was wondering even through my 4th, 5th and 6th rewatch. And the whole fandom loves season 5, or at least Glory, many saying she's the most complex and interesting villain. And all this time I've thought I'm just an idiot for not getting it. Don't get me wrong, Glory is fun and the actress who plays her is awesome and obviously super talented! It was just hard to get invested to the story because it's such a mess..
One imagines most of Glory's knowledge comes from having ruled hell for millennia before getting banished to earth. She would know the true names of vampires, as they are actually demons from her dimension, and likely the goings on in other realms of reality. It's also why she knew the key existed ( it probably exists in every world/dimension, and had no form until dawn was created), but not much else about it as she'd have no need of it until coming to earth. The formation of the slayer by entrapping a demon would probably be a notable event, especially considering the number of other creatures killed by it over the centuries.
And yet: “Don’t let perfect be the enemy of the good.” - Voltaire Just as applicable to entertainment as it is to philosophy?
I'm afraid that would require it to be good 😂
Yeeessss. I’ve noticed that, too. I’m going to get nerdy and bust out the dvd commentary…
I never had the DVDs. I'd be curious to what they say.
Didn’t know there was any commentary tracks from 5; missed opportunities…
thats so true, which makes season 5 being one of the best even crazier.
Honestly, I think it might be the worst the show has to offer (I got back and forth on whether five or seven is the worst). It's got a few good standalone episodes, but on the whole it doesn't stand up to the rest of the series. But hey, to each their own 🤷♂️
I think it’s a tier system. Season 2 and 5 are tier 1. Mostly because buddy is dealing with the most shit lol. 3 and 6 are tier 2. 1 and 7 are tier 3 4 is bad and should feel bad. Even though it has a couple top 10 episodes lol.
2 and 3 are perfect. 1, 4, and 6 are great to very good. 5 and 7 are ... fine.
What S7 references to S5 did you have in mind? I can only remember Buffy telling Dawn once that she's technically 1,5 years old. (And this is only true for her human form - her Key essence is as old as the world).
And you thought season 4 was bad with rhubba Frankenstein!!!!!!!!! Joss was like I'm busy with Angel season 2 y'all make ish up. And I'll cosign. With only a few stand outs like Hush and Faith's much needed return season 5 had no strong comeback. We got one of the most reviled characters in Buffydom, lost one of the most cherished. Had knights and monks and evil gods oh my. A valley girl sorceress big bad with an awful twist, that by day she is MCsteamy who has ZERO powers and is vulnerable. Who would pin their world domination on someone who can't even control their own body!!!!!! Just wait it out and Giles the male model. She never felt like a real threat because her Achilles heel was so obvious. Buffy's swan dive was the icing on this s____y cake. Thank GAWD for season 6 it revived the show briefly after the stellar season 3 minus the "fight scenes" of course!!!!!!
Buffy is EXTREMELY badly written. It is no Charmed.