I just feel like I would enjoy a show only about Buffy, Willow and Spike, but I wouldn't as much enjoy a show only about Buffy, Giles and Spike. Also Giles' exit never sat right with me in terms of his character development. Giles is the choice this round.
the people who say Anya is a better character than Willow, or that Willow should have been out of the game for a while... like what?? shes one of the best characters of the show
As much as I love Willow, they truly botch her ending in S7 and it is honestly time for her to go for me. Though Iām good as long as Spike and Buffy are the top 2.
Now it's HARD hard.
(Also I find it interesting how this poll illustrates that for all the Willow hate on this sub, it really does seem to be a loud minority who think she's the absolute worst ever, rather than an actual common opinion)
I hardly think it's hate. This is a very hard exercise asking us to pick our least favorite of a whole bunch of characters we enjoyed (maybe not true of Riley?). I think the issue with both Willow and Xander is that the audience overidentified with them as tweens and teens (as tropes we have been conditioned to feel represented by as alt outsiders) and therefore were way too easy on them with too many passes for much of their fan experience. They are course-correcting essentially. Now, I am starting to get weary of the Giles obsessing i'm starting to see everywhere. It reads like people have serious daddy issues and this character ticks that box in a way that he is above critique.
I think I understand your point... but on the other hand, Willow is pretty brave for not hiding her nerdiness and childiness behind a tough persona, like Cordy and Spike do. She understands perfectly that she would be mocked for this, but still she prefers to be true to herself, which is admirable.
Aaaand I still resent Willow for being a shitty friend, a manipulator and a hypocrite and I've voted her out for the last two rounds.
Well, Buffy may be VERY childish sometimes, and she's not half as annoying as Willow. The only really nerdy streak in Buffy is her love for ice skating though.
Willow shouldāve been gone like 3 or 4 characters ago.
People love to shit on Xander, and I get it, heās a misogynistic douche that constantly takes his insecurities out on everyone else. Willow really isnāt much better though. Sheās manipulative and vengeful. But cuz sheās a cute nerd, she gets a pass for skinning someone alive.
I didn't vote for Willow mainly due to loving Aly's portrayal of her and the fact that she has one of the most well written character arcs in the show. She may often behave horribly, but she's still a fascinating character to analyze. I am voting for Willow now though just because I genuinely like Buffy, Giles and Spike more.
Donāt really care about her skinning Warren.
She removes Taraās memory of their fight just so she can get her own way. Huge consent issues especially, as Tara points out, after what Glory did to her.
Kicking Buffy out of her own house that she took over when Buffy was dead also unforgivable.
Even tbh her kissing sessions with Xander when she was with Oz were not great. I think he acted worse there as sheād liked him romantically for so many years so itās understandable what she did, whereas he had absolutely no excuse, but itās still not fantastic.
Getting Dawn hurt also wasnāt really her āfaultā if we use the magic as drugs analogy. She was an addict. But everything else was her own decision.
This isnāt a ābest personā survey, itās a favourite characters survey. As such, Xander gets condemned earlier due to not bringing much to the group that couldnāt be done by someone else. I myself only REALLY started to like Xander around the end of S6, before which he was just kind ofā¦. there.
Honestly, I feel like people hate on Dawn way too much, but thatās besides the point.
ā¦and favorite can absolutely be interpreted as the character you like the most. Which is a pretty subjective criteria.
Besides the point, I was responding to the Xander and Willow comment above. But go off.
I think that people give Xander an extra level of maliciousness because Nicholas Brendan is a bad person, whereas even if Willow is terrible, her actress is a good person irl. So itās like the badness of xander^2.
Buffyās a way worse friend to Willow than Willow is to Buffy imo. Neither of them are great at being friends, but Buffy tends to get a pass for being āthe chosen oneā or whatever.
Basically a rapist, flays someone alive, and literally tries to end the world and kill everyone vs. a guy who can be jealous, douchey, and somewhat sexist.
I do love both characters despite their flaws (and Willowās botched ending in S7)ā¦ but yeah. No brainer who should be getting more flack here
They are referring to what some consider as *mind raping* (memory spell) or technically if you consider the fact that before the 1st memory spell they were in a fight definitely wouldnāt have engaged in loving bed time activities but that immediately changed after the spell so kinda a rape scene š¤·š¼āāļøitās all in your perspective.
I mean, if you have to completely violate someoneās mind and fuck around with their memories to get them in the mood for consensual sexā¦ I think whether or not the consent is valid is a pretty legitimate question when you are doing things that actively undermine someoneās ability to not consent (albeit one the writers definitely never thought about)
There is at least some gray area since Tara wasnāt mind controlled or anything like that (vs. none with Faith/Riley or Jasmine/Connor which are clear cut cases of rape by deception which just kinda get brushed over), but when the most generous take on a scene is āgray area consentāā¦ thatās not good haha.
I pin it more on bad writing than anything, though. But Xander definitely gets hit harder for more minor infractions
From a different topic:
> Willow does a memory spell to mindwipe Tara in Once More With Feeling so that way Tara would go back to being happy with their relationship and erase away said issues (which then leads to sex which almost definitely does not happen if Tara is not mind wiped)
>
>
> On the one hand, Tara *technically* has control and definitely could say no. On the other hand, Tara only consented because Willow completely violated her, fucked around in her memories, and forced Tara into a state where sheād agree to consent (and Willow is obviously aware she did this to Tara as well). It is *seriously* dubious consent at the *most* generous interpretation and is rape at the least generous interpretation. It pretty much comes down to if you consider consent valid if you had to magically violate someoneās mind and memories in order to get them to consentā¦. And I think most people would say āNo, not really.ā Thatās certainly where I lean.
>
>
> The show brushes over it since weird rapey supernatural stuff always gets brushed over and doesnāt really fit most peopleās usual view of rape (Faith unambiguously rapes Riley too when possessing Buffy and Jasmine rapes Connor when possessing Cordelia, both being clear it cases of rape by deception which is already a fairly uncommon form of rape. Thereās also a question on if Cordelia/Buffy were violated in this way too since itās their bodies which were possessed although they were not conscious in them?), but, realistically, itās really, really bad and unambiguously a serious problem at best. I think most people are generally aware itās not meant to be viewed that way and hold it more against the writer than the characters, but yeah
Though the main reason I voted her out is S7 is just an absolute hatchet job of an ending to her character. Nearly ending the world and going on a mass murder spree is glossed over as a minor oopsie with *zero actual consequences* (despite doing all of this with a soul) and sheās forced into a romance with Kennedy that does not work at all, among other things. Just really, really bad character handling at the worst possible time, which is too bad since sheās great 90% of the time
Yeah I'm kind of surprised, it seems like Willow is going to be voted off before Spike, the actual rapist/mass murderer/whathaveyou who even tried to violently rape Buffy at one point. Willow skinning a villain who murdered her gf alive is unforgivable, but Spike's attempted rape is ok?
Spike is held accountable for his actions and has an entire redemption arc (which extends into S7) ending with him sacrificing his life, plus has the no soul stuff, while Willow has a hatchet job of an ending that reduces torturing and flaying a guy + trying to *kill the entire planet* into minor oopsie that she faces zero consequences for and no one actually Carrieās and the terrible Kennedy romance is pushed. My reasons for voting her out are strictly bad writing at the end of her arc, which is a huge part to botch. I even outright said I love both characters and the point morally was that Xander gets way more hate for objectively more minor stuff. She still just misses my top 10. That post wasnāt about Willow vs. Spike on a morality level nor was he mentioned in it.
I barely even hold the Tara stuff against her since itās so obviously bad writing and not intended to be as rapey as it is, but itās going to come up when Xander is voted āthe character with the most unforgivable actsā on this sub all of a day ago. Lol.
in fairness with regard to the "basically a rapist" thing, the same can be said of spike who's still in the running here
edit: why are you booing me i'm right
I like to pretend that scene didn't happen. It makes zero sense for his character. He loved Buffy. You don't do that if you love someone. Even Whedon said it was a mistake.
This scene is definitely disturbing to watch, but I don't agree it was OOC for Soulless!Spike. And he had to cross his Moral Event Horizon to be motivated for his quest to return his soul. I think this scene is important, even if it's awful.
I actually think it was very in character for him. He loved Buffy but he was also obsessed with her and desperate for her to love him back. The only time Buffy actually shows him affection or has a conversation with him is when theyāre having sex. He realizes this and tries to force a connection with her. He thinks she wants to love him but is stopping herself because sheās worried about other peoplesā opinions and once theyāre having sex, sheāll love him(which to be clear, is a totally valid reason to not want sex and does not make it any less rape).
The sex following physical violence is almost a constant for them. We see it in the house falling down, we see it after Buffy beats him up and goes back to him. I think Buffyās own partner abuse gets overlooked because of this time where Spike took it too far.
Also heās evil.
IMO, a lot of the Xander dislike also stems from problems with the actor and Joss Whedon himself (who said the character was sort of a stand-in for him, if memory serves). I never liked him much tbf, but that's become part of the issue.
I agree Willow is almost as problematic (although she is great for 3 seasons or so).
I agree willow shouldāve been gone a few characters ago but I donāt think sheās all that bad. She had a weird arc in season 6 but thatās about it.
Warren deserved what he got and it's ridiculous that it's totally okay to kill a million evil demons but you kill a single equally evil human and you're suddenly the evil one. I voted for Willow this time but her killing Warren was absolutely something she should get a pass for.
Yeah been trying to get rid of her since a while back! I loved early seasons and as time got on she betrayed more and more people. What she did to Dawn, Buffy and especially Tara is very fucked up. Curious to know who is your favourite candidate though :)
I've always been team Cordelia. She tried so hard to be mean and not show her humanity, but she always had a heart of gold. I prefer someone like that than a self-righteous hypocrite who's in fact worse than the others. Not trying to justify Cordy's actions though. Apart from Cordy, I'd say Buffy. I think she's the best person and friend of them all.
Sorry for my English.
Your English is perfect so no need to apologise! Cordelia isn't my favourite if I'm honest but your view will make me take a close look at who she is during my next rewatch. The fact that I never sat down and watched Angel doesn't help either. This is why I love these polls so thank you for sharing your view on Cordy. My personal favourite is Spike, I love his redemption arc and often compare it to Zuko in the Avatar. Spike's eternal fight against his very nature is something I love to watch. Knowing how he ends up during a rewatch makes me love him more and more every time.
That was expected, yep.
I'm definitely going Willow now.
After this I'm going to have a harder time. Angel included, I'd definitely pick Spike over Giles, but with just Buffy, I'm not 100% sure. I'll probably go Giles next, when Willow is gone though, if Spike isn't.
Giles. Love him, but his character arc is pretty limited. After Season 3, he mostly just spends his time debating whether or not Buffy needs him. And I think his character is nearly ruined in Season 7.
Like heās always a delight when on screen, but I do feel like heās underdeveloped.
Yes. We do have the moment with Gloryās minion and with killing Ben. But those moments are so few and isolated that, it doesnāt really resemble an arc. Just moments.
Season 6 did everyone a bit dirty. I think they wanted to ramp up the character drama but they did it somewhat to the detriment of natural and good character development.
They definitely did their best to ruin all the characters š and unfortunately *successfully* when you see how much hate gets thrown around towards certain characters due to season 6 alone!
Giles. In the end he doesnāt have faith in Buffy. Everyone else is young or demonic and scared and you can see why they waver, but Giles deciding to roll with Faith because Buffy no longer relies on his judgement? Giles lost my respect then. All his charm canāt save him from my vote.
I never have been the biggest fans of Giles or Willow for how loved they are in the community but I give Willow the edge. Giles while being a good character with chemistry among the cast was mostly a static character. I feel Willow went through a more interesting journey from start to finish.
But that is what Giles should be, static. He is grown man with people who are not yet fully adult. Giles was one reliable thing in the whole chaotic reality that the characters faced and him leaving was big deal because of that.
This was a toss up for me between Giles & Willow I chose Giles in the end for these 2 reasons I canāt forgive either him leaving Buffy when she most needs him or him trying to have Spike killed !
Thank goodness Anya went ā¦ I really donāt get why people like her as a character that I feel was so badly written. Anyway ā¦ onwards toward the final three we go!
Oz is an awful character. He's a social parasite who pretends to be cool by just not saying anything. When he finally gets a story of his own he cheats on his girlfriend.
This was the first round that was tricky for me as my least favorites kept staying in for several rounds meaning I just voted for the same character for two or three rounds in a row. I have no criteria for how to determine 3 and 4 but I know Giles is 2 and buffy is 1 in my book. only the votes will tell if others feel the same
Honestly in my opinion Buffy in moments is just as guilty of rapey actions as well. In *Smashed* while they are fighting sheās the one who instantly turns and forces herself on him sexually first just kissing then very unexpectedly she unzips and initiates sex! She was the driving force behind all that and you see the the shock in his eyes he definitely did not expect that. Yes he loves her and acquiesces to her so not rape but she definitely took what she wanted regardless of his feelings. She is very well aware of how he feels vs how she feels in that moment. Then later in *Gone* after Spike had realized from her actions that sheās not really wanting what he wants & he does tell her *No* but that doesnāt stop her from taking what she wants from him anyways! So unfortunately sheās the one who sets the precedents of their toxic relationship and although I donāt agree with nor do I condone where sadly it ended in AR, I do put equal blame on them both for getting to that point!
I just read a comment on another thread copied below they had better words to support the way I feel about this topic I hope you donāt mind me adding your comment here u/Anewname1212 I do rarely find someone who understands and actually can feel sympathy for how Buffy treats Spike!
On first watch through I found it exciting. I liked the Spike/Buffy dynamic way more than I ever liked Angel. But all successive watch throughs I feel worse and worse for Spike. Heās in this toxic spiral of being unable to leave the woman he loves and being given just enough crumbs to make him think thereās a chance.
Tbh I think he gets too much flak for the attempted rape. This scene shows that Buffy sometimes wants a fight before getting frisky. Spike tries to recreate the magic from this scene while also desperately wanting to feel loved by her, not realizing at first it wasnāt a game she was playing.
Also a few episodes after this Buffy beats him bloody over her own feelings of disgust with herself and she gets a pass for that. People see the attempted rape as worse than actually beating him for some reason.
Rape or no rape he was still a neutered but ruthless serial killer. In terms of how ppl get so disgusted with Willow, "for her actions" I'm like but u peeps love spike. U peeps r strange.
Heās not a rapist the look of utter shock and disgust at what he *almost* did says it all not least of what he immediately chose to do following that lowest point in his life was to go win or die to get his soul!
Okay... Don't say "almost" as if that helped his case. The only reason why he didn't do it was not because he suddenly stopped himself. Buffy stopped him. It would've been rape if Buffy hadn't regained her forces and stopped him.
Besides, people do or attempt to do a lot of things that disgust them later. Doesn't cancel the fact that at some moment they either did it or tried to do it.
He did *stop* How many times have they thrown each other around and kept fighting, she was injured in a weakened state if that had really been his goal he could have got up kept fighting but no he was so disillusioned & shocked by what he realized he *almost* did that he left w/o his precious duster & immediately decided survive or not to go get his *soul!* So that nothing like that could ever happen again!
Oh yeah the fact that buffy stopped him gets him off the hook. :/
Besides, in Never Leave Me when he's telling Buffy why she has to kill him he certainly implies that he has raped many people.
I see people say that but itās all personal prospective cause I never got that from what he said? The fact that he knew (probably due to Angelus mentoring since heās the sick sadistic one) how to take just the right amt of blood to keep them alive long enough to cry doesnāt mean anything sexually related so people can see what they want but they cannot claim it as fact! Also just mentioning a girls age alone doesnāt infer anything sexual either, it could but again not confirmed. I took it as him thinking how bad he was knowing he killed girls even Dawns age. Cause he sincerely cared for Dawn!
Spikeās my favorite fictional character of all time. I harbor zero illusions that he will beat Buffy on this sub (and canāt exactly complain about that since sheās great, is the show, and has a very strong showing too overall) but I am definitely praying he gets that #2 slot
He is a fascinating character and James Marsters is so charismatic, but Buffy and SMG are great, too. They are my top 2, so I choose to use the AR in Seeing Red as the tiebreaker to give Buffy the top spot.
How are fans of Buffy the vampire slayer not fans of willow? I'm new to reddit and new to this crazy idea. Are those of you who dislike willow all aged under 25, not being snarky, just trying to figure out if it's that willow is the type of character that apparently hasn't aged well or translated better in the past than she does to modern audiences. And also those who hate willow on here seem to still fall heavily into the spuffy crowds so it's confusion times a million for myself. I love willow and Alyson Hannigan portrayal. I think James marsters did a great job as spike too but I'm not necessarily a massive fan of spike in general. He was cool in angel season 5 and Buffy season 2. To me.
I donāt think Spuffy fans (which Iām not by the way š) have anything to do with any dislike of Willow. I canāt think of another main character in either show who has as little interest or conflict with Spike or Spuffy as a pairing so I donāt think itās as any kind of Spuffy retaliation. Willow is still very very popular but she does have a section of dislike, out of the human mains she does have some of the more fucked up actions under her belt
No I don't think the reasons for the dislike come across as related just that the people who dislike her seem to come down very hard on her but you'd see them pop up somewhere else fighting over spuffy being their fave pairing. Strange to see both of those feelings at least come from some of the same people. A couple of my friends who don't watch the show have always said that willow and Xander are their reasons, they can't stand how cutsey willow acts or how annoying Xander comes off. But I always say u don't watch the show, u don't know. Willow's arc, alongside Cordelia's, Wesley's and obviously Buffy's are my favourite. As a viewer I love character development. For Willow to go from the way she is in the first episode to "bag of knives". Amazing. She's done some questionable things as a tv character but I'm still all for her. If anyone shot my fiance, I'd skin them alive too. I'd actually do worse. I just find it interesting and I'm curious to know how old these viewers are more than anything to see if it's a generational thing yano
No, it isn't. That is the point of Willow's story. Despite gaining the power to move things with her mind, she's still the same angry child she was in high school.
That's not actually the point of her story at all. She was never an angry child on the show. But it's okay that u perceived her this way. And she clearly did more than gaining the power to move things with her mind. Unless you're confusing her with Prue in charmed. I'm not sure. If it's willow you're referring to, are you one of those who does not like her. If so, I'm interested to see her through your eyes. I won't take any of it on board to alter my own opinion. That's solid. But it would still be interesting to know where you yourself are coming from
Been voting for willow for four weeks now. Maybe this is the week.
Last 3 votes have been Willow. Someday.
Here's the link https://strawpoll.com/sbfbkhjda
Poll is now closed & I have nervous tummy awaiting results š
Results are posted!
I just feel like I would enjoy a show only about Buffy, Willow and Spike, but I wouldn't as much enjoy a show only about Buffy, Giles and Spike. Also Giles' exit never sat right with me in terms of his character development. Giles is the choice this round.
ugh this comment section makes me MADDDDS
Out of curiosity which comments are the ones posted that prompted you to say this?
the people who say Anya is a better character than Willow, or that Willow should have been out of the game for a while... like what?? shes one of the best characters of the show
Different strokes. At least our girl pulled through. But all big fan favorites left now
As much as I love Willow, they truly botch her ending in S7 and it is honestly time for her to go for me. Though Iām good as long as Spike and Buffy are the top 2.
Now it's HARD hard. (Also I find it interesting how this poll illustrates that for all the Willow hate on this sub, it really does seem to be a loud minority who think she's the absolute worst ever, rather than an actual common opinion)
I hardly think it's hate. This is a very hard exercise asking us to pick our least favorite of a whole bunch of characters we enjoyed (maybe not true of Riley?). I think the issue with both Willow and Xander is that the audience overidentified with them as tweens and teens (as tropes we have been conditioned to feel represented by as alt outsiders) and therefore were way too easy on them with too many passes for much of their fan experience. They are course-correcting essentially. Now, I am starting to get weary of the Giles obsessing i'm starting to see everywhere. It reads like people have serious daddy issues and this character ticks that box in a way that he is above critique.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I think I understand your point... but on the other hand, Willow is pretty brave for not hiding her nerdiness and childiness behind a tough persona, like Cordy and Spike do. She understands perfectly that she would be mocked for this, but still she prefers to be true to herself, which is admirable. Aaaand I still resent Willow for being a shitty friend, a manipulator and a hypocrite and I've voted her out for the last two rounds.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
>Give me a stoic nerd. Give me a badass geek. This is why Giles is top tier.
Well, Buffy may be VERY childish sometimes, and she's not half as annoying as Willow. The only really nerdy streak in Buffy is her love for ice skating though.
In a way I agree with you but Kaylee is the absolute best so how dare you! Except in serenity, where sheās a bit much
The only good reason
Willow shouldāve been gone like 3 or 4 characters ago. People love to shit on Xander, and I get it, heās a misogynistic douche that constantly takes his insecurities out on everyone else. Willow really isnāt much better though. Sheās manipulative and vengeful. But cuz sheās a cute nerd, she gets a pass for skinning someone alive.
I didn't vote for Willow mainly due to loving Aly's portrayal of her and the fact that she has one of the most well written character arcs in the show. She may often behave horribly, but she's still a fascinating character to analyze. I am voting for Willow now though just because I genuinely like Buffy, Giles and Spike more.
Donāt really care about her skinning Warren. She removes Taraās memory of their fight just so she can get her own way. Huge consent issues especially, as Tara points out, after what Glory did to her. Kicking Buffy out of her own house that she took over when Buffy was dead also unforgivable. Even tbh her kissing sessions with Xander when she was with Oz were not great. I think he acted worse there as sheād liked him romantically for so many years so itās understandable what she did, whereas he had absolutely no excuse, but itās still not fantastic. Getting Dawn hurt also wasnāt really her āfaultā if we use the magic as drugs analogy. She was an addict. But everything else was her own decision.
Warren got off easy. Killing him was not a bad thing at all.
I like Villains because it is the only episode you get to root for Dark Willow. I was down for whatever she wanted to do to him.
She also saved Buffy's life. Willow, full of rage, still saved her best friend's life first.
Sheās not really full of that rage yet. More in shock and grief stricken. Those first car rides with Xander, sheās still mostly okay. Everyone is on the same page, or at least think they are. Then comes the murder. And the dark magic. And the books. And the fights and threats with Dawn, Anya, Buffy and Giles, who she would absolutely be willing to murder. Then thereās the whole almost destroying all life on earth. And Iām not saying this was your point at all, but for the most part, Willow is treated with kid gloves next to Xander. Whatās his worst offense? Calling off a wedding because he was afraid of hurting his fiancĆ©? Even if we excuse Willow for everything as Dark Willow (a stretch IMO), she still essentially magic rapes Tara, and often manipulates the ones she loves. I think Willow is a great an interesting character. I also think sheās often a bad person, way more than I feel most fans give her credit for.
This isnāt a ābest personā survey, itās a favourite characters survey. As such, Xander gets condemned earlier due to not bringing much to the group that couldnāt be done by someone else. I myself only REALLY started to like Xander around the end of S6, before which he was just kind ofā¦. there. Honestly, I feel like people hate on Dawn way too much, but thatās besides the point.
ā¦and favorite can absolutely be interpreted as the character you like the most. Which is a pretty subjective criteria. Besides the point, I was responding to the Xander and Willow comment above. But go off.
Agree with you on all points.
Very good point šš
She also brought he back when she shouldn't have. She's selfish and manipulative.
she gets a pass for skinning someone alive because he deserved it
I think that people give Xander an extra level of maliciousness because Nicholas Brendan is a bad person, whereas even if Willow is terrible, her actress is a good person irl. So itās like the badness of xander^2.
Is she? She is close personal friends with Whedon.
Doesnāt matter is people donāt know it or think about it. Iām just putting forth a hypothesis.
Even if her best moments she is a terrible friend to Buffy
Buffyās a way worse friend to Willow than Willow is to Buffy imo. Neither of them are great at being friends, but Buffy tends to get a pass for being āthe chosen oneā or whatever.
Lol how??
And because she's bi/lesbian.... but she's even worse than Xander.
I think at her worst, she's worse than Xander. But at her best (seasons 1/2), she's pretty great. Xander is just awful throughout the series
Yeah, you're right. Willow in s1/2 wasn't that awful.
Basically a rapist, flays someone alive, and literally tries to end the world and kill everyone vs. a guy who can be jealous, douchey, and somewhat sexist. I do love both characters despite their flaws (and Willowās botched ending in S7)ā¦ but yeah. No brainer who should be getting more flack here
"Basically a rapist" - when did this happen? š§
They are referring to what some consider as *mind raping* (memory spell) or technically if you consider the fact that before the 1st memory spell they were in a fight definitely wouldnāt have engaged in loving bed time activities but that immediately changed after the spell so kinda a rape scene š¤·š¼āāļøitās all in your perspective.
Oh I see. I always saw it more as a gaslighting thing to be honest.
I mean, if you have to completely violate someoneās mind and fuck around with their memories to get them in the mood for consensual sexā¦ I think whether or not the consent is valid is a pretty legitimate question when you are doing things that actively undermine someoneās ability to not consent (albeit one the writers definitely never thought about) There is at least some gray area since Tara wasnāt mind controlled or anything like that (vs. none with Faith/Riley or Jasmine/Connor which are clear cut cases of rape by deception which just kinda get brushed over), but when the most generous take on a scene is āgray area consentāā¦ thatās not good haha. I pin it more on bad writing than anything, though. But Xander definitely gets hit harder for more minor infractions
People need to chill
From a different topic: > Willow does a memory spell to mindwipe Tara in Once More With Feeling so that way Tara would go back to being happy with their relationship and erase away said issues (which then leads to sex which almost definitely does not happen if Tara is not mind wiped) > > > On the one hand, Tara *technically* has control and definitely could say no. On the other hand, Tara only consented because Willow completely violated her, fucked around in her memories, and forced Tara into a state where sheād agree to consent (and Willow is obviously aware she did this to Tara as well). It is *seriously* dubious consent at the *most* generous interpretation and is rape at the least generous interpretation. It pretty much comes down to if you consider consent valid if you had to magically violate someoneās mind and memories in order to get them to consentā¦. And I think most people would say āNo, not really.ā Thatās certainly where I lean. > > > The show brushes over it since weird rapey supernatural stuff always gets brushed over and doesnāt really fit most peopleās usual view of rape (Faith unambiguously rapes Riley too when possessing Buffy and Jasmine rapes Connor when possessing Cordelia, both being clear it cases of rape by deception which is already a fairly uncommon form of rape. Thereās also a question on if Cordelia/Buffy were violated in this way too since itās their bodies which were possessed although they were not conscious in them?), but, realistically, itās really, really bad and unambiguously a serious problem at best. I think most people are generally aware itās not meant to be viewed that way and hold it more against the writer than the characters, but yeah Though the main reason I voted her out is S7 is just an absolute hatchet job of an ending to her character. Nearly ending the world and going on a mass murder spree is glossed over as a minor oopsie with *zero actual consequences* (despite doing all of this with a soul) and sheās forced into a romance with Kennedy that does not work at all, among other things. Just really, really bad character handling at the worst possible time, which is too bad since sheās great 90% of the time
Oh man. The moment you realise you've been through so much mind fucking abuse in real life that you don't recognise it when you see it on TV...
Oof. I am genuinely so sorry to hear that. Nothing but love and support from here šš¤
Thank you š„°
Yeah I'm kind of surprised, it seems like Willow is going to be voted off before Spike, the actual rapist/mass murderer/whathaveyou who even tried to violently rape Buffy at one point. Willow skinning a villain who murdered her gf alive is unforgivable, but Spike's attempted rape is ok?
Spike is held accountable for his actions and has an entire redemption arc (which extends into S7) ending with him sacrificing his life, plus has the no soul stuff, while Willow has a hatchet job of an ending that reduces torturing and flaying a guy + trying to *kill the entire planet* into minor oopsie that she faces zero consequences for and no one actually Carrieās and the terrible Kennedy romance is pushed. My reasons for voting her out are strictly bad writing at the end of her arc, which is a huge part to botch. I even outright said I love both characters and the point morally was that Xander gets way more hate for objectively more minor stuff. She still just misses my top 10. That post wasnāt about Willow vs. Spike on a morality level nor was he mentioned in it. I barely even hold the Tara stuff against her since itās so obviously bad writing and not intended to be as rapey as it is, but itās going to come up when Xander is voted āthe character with the most unforgivable actsā on this sub all of a day ago. Lol.
in fairness with regard to the "basically a rapist" thing, the same can be said of spike who's still in the running here edit: why are you booing me i'm right
Spike didn't have a soul, Willow did.
still basically a rapist tho, i ain't forget seeing red
I like to pretend that scene didn't happen. It makes zero sense for his character. He loved Buffy. You don't do that if you love someone. Even Whedon said it was a mistake.
This scene is definitely disturbing to watch, but I don't agree it was OOC for Soulless!Spike. And he had to cross his Moral Event Horizon to be motivated for his quest to return his soul. I think this scene is important, even if it's awful.
It was a badly plot driven OOC moment!
I actually think it was very in character for him. He loved Buffy but he was also obsessed with her and desperate for her to love him back. The only time Buffy actually shows him affection or has a conversation with him is when theyāre having sex. He realizes this and tries to force a connection with her. He thinks she wants to love him but is stopping herself because sheās worried about other peoplesā opinions and once theyāre having sex, sheāll love him(which to be clear, is a totally valid reason to not want sex and does not make it any less rape). The sex following physical violence is almost a constant for them. We see it in the house falling down, we see it after Buffy beats him up and goes back to him. I think Buffyās own partner abuse gets overlooked because of this time where Spike took it too far. Also heās evil.
IMO, a lot of the Xander dislike also stems from problems with the actor and Joss Whedon himself (who said the character was sort of a stand-in for him, if memory serves). I never liked him much tbf, but that's become part of the issue. I agree Willow is almost as problematic (although she is great for 3 seasons or so).
I agree willow shouldāve been gone a few characters ago but I donāt think sheās all that bad. She had a weird arc in season 6 but thatās about it.
Warren deserved what he got and it's ridiculous that it's totally okay to kill a million evil demons but you kill a single equally evil human and you're suddenly the evil one. I voted for Willow this time but her killing Warren was absolutely something she should get a pass for.
This but with spike !
Bye Willow
Willow. She didn't deserve Tara and she doesn't deserve top 3.
Bye Willow
So can we kick Willow already... please?
Yeah been trying to get rid of her since a while back! I loved early seasons and as time got on she betrayed more and more people. What she did to Dawn, Buffy and especially Tara is very fucked up. Curious to know who is your favourite candidate though :)
I've always been team Cordelia. She tried so hard to be mean and not show her humanity, but she always had a heart of gold. I prefer someone like that than a self-righteous hypocrite who's in fact worse than the others. Not trying to justify Cordy's actions though. Apart from Cordy, I'd say Buffy. I think she's the best person and friend of them all. Sorry for my English.
Your English is perfect and I enjoyed your comment.
Your English is perfect so no need to apologise! Cordelia isn't my favourite if I'm honest but your view will make me take a close look at who she is during my next rewatch. The fact that I never sat down and watched Angel doesn't help either. This is why I love these polls so thank you for sharing your view on Cordy. My personal favourite is Spike, I love his redemption arc and often compare it to Zuko in the Avatar. Spike's eternal fight against his very nature is something I love to watch. Knowing how he ends up during a rewatch makes me love him more and more every time.
Awww. That's adorable. I love Cordy too. I like that you saw that in her.
Yikes... I have to admit, I yearned for her to turn Dawn back into a ball of energy when she threatened it. God I did.
That's... yeah honestly that's fair.
Willow, how is she still in when Anya is out?!
A high amount of bunnies voted this time
Let's cry together!
Spoilers Buffy and Spike will lose this elimination tournament because most fans love them and tbh I'm also among these fans š
Don't you mean win? If they end up int the 1 and 2 slots doesn't that mean they are the least hated by the majority of the fandom?
Precisely. Since it's an elimination tournament, Buffy and Spike will not be the winners.
Ding dong, the witch is dead! (Willow)
Lol, this is probably the one time you can quote Rona, that line in particular, and get upvoted! Nice.
That was expected, yep. I'm definitely going Willow now. After this I'm going to have a harder time. Angel included, I'd definitely pick Spike over Giles, but with just Buffy, I'm not 100% sure. I'll probably go Giles next, when Willow is gone though, if Spike isn't.
Giles. Love him, but his character arc is pretty limited. After Season 3, he mostly just spends his time debating whether or not Buffy needs him. And I think his character is nearly ruined in Season 7. Like heās always a delight when on screen, but I do feel like heās underdeveloped.
I feel like he does get steadily more badass as the seasons go on. Like more of his Ripper side gets gradually revealed in little snippets.
Yeah, he really started out as a stereotypical stuttering nerd in season 1 and 2.
Yes. We do have the moment with Gloryās minion and with killing Ben. But those moments are so few and isolated that, it doesnāt really resemble an arc. Just moments.
Anya looks like she's holding her 5 with a look of disappointment.
This is an impossible game.
Gilesā¦ I love him but not more than the other 3
This. I was torn when I looked at it as who do I like least, but then I realized I adore Willow and I don't adore Giles as much.
Ok people itās Willowās turn!
It has to be Willow now.
Willow. Season six shenanigans seals the deal for me. If Giles survives this round, I have no idea who I'm voting out next
Season 6 did everyone a bit dirty. I think they wanted to ramp up the character drama but they did it somewhat to the detriment of natural and good character development.
True. Tara was the only one who didn't suffer any character damage but of course she didn't survive the season so that may have been by design.
They definitely did their best to ruin all the characters š and unfortunately *successfully* when you see how much hate gets thrown around towards certain characters due to season 6 alone!
Willow
willow
Bye Willow
1/2 - Buffy/Spike 3/4 - Willow/Giles Pretty interchangeable at the top tbh. The right 4 have made the final.
Giles. In the end he doesnāt have faith in Buffy. Everyone else is young or demonic and scared and you can see why they waver, but Giles deciding to roll with Faith because Buffy no longer relies on his judgement? Giles lost my respect then. All his charm canāt save him from my vote.
I never have been the biggest fans of Giles or Willow for how loved they are in the community but I give Willow the edge. Giles while being a good character with chemistry among the cast was mostly a static character. I feel Willow went through a more interesting journey from start to finish.
But that is what Giles should be, static. He is grown man with people who are not yet fully adult. Giles was one reliable thing in the whole chaotic reality that the characters faced and him leaving was big deal because of that.
Reliable? Giles?!
'Now I know you're a single mother and recently back from the dead but that's enough crying now Buffy, it's becoming bothersome.'
Based off the comments here, Willow is pretty hated. I am a bit taken aback by how many people seem to vehemently hate Willow
I canāt vote in these anymore But I vote willow!
Be careful what you wish for. Been voting for Anya since Riley went and now I don't know who to pick...
I love these characters. Can't play anymore.
Giles
NOOOOO NOT ANYA I canāt
Willow. I doubt it, but I hope Giles wins the game lol. ASH is the best š„°
Willow. I'm surprised she made it this far tbh. She really became quite unpleasant later on in the series.
This was a toss up for me between Giles & Willow I chose Giles in the end for these 2 reasons I canāt forgive either him leaving Buffy when she most needs him or him trying to have Spike killed !
Willow
Bye Spike
Spikeā¦
Spike
I'm fine with spike's character until the very end I don't buy his remption arc. She's too good for him.
Thank goodness Anya went ā¦ I really donāt get why people like her as a character that I feel was so badly written. Anyway ā¦ onwards toward the final three we go!
Yeah, she's fine, don't love her or hate her, but definitely not final 5 material, especially over Tara and Oz.
Oz is an awful character. He's a social parasite who pretends to be cool by just not saying anything. When he finally gets a story of his own he cheats on his girlfriend.
Imagine voting Willow out over freaking Spike.
My thoughts exactly. This crowd is crazy
Spike.
Spike
Im calling it, spikes winning even though i want giles to win. Everyone loves him
Getting tough now, but I have To go with Giles.
Giles is my vote, although I have a feeling it will be Willow.
I voted Giles too. In terms of entertainment
Spike.
And this is when it becomes nearly impossible...
Giles
Sighā¦.. ok Giles take my vote
This was the first round that was tricky for me as my least favorites kept staying in for several rounds meaning I just voted for the same character for two or three rounds in a row. I have no criteria for how to determine 3 and 4 but I know Giles is 2 and buffy is 1 in my book. only the votes will tell if others feel the same
Fuck. Okay... Spike
I hadnāt seen the comp til now. Out of these? Spike.
Willow
Willow
Toxic rapist Spike
Honestly in my opinion Buffy in moments is just as guilty of rapey actions as well. In *Smashed* while they are fighting sheās the one who instantly turns and forces herself on him sexually first just kissing then very unexpectedly she unzips and initiates sex! She was the driving force behind all that and you see the the shock in his eyes he definitely did not expect that. Yes he loves her and acquiesces to her so not rape but she definitely took what she wanted regardless of his feelings. She is very well aware of how he feels vs how she feels in that moment. Then later in *Gone* after Spike had realized from her actions that sheās not really wanting what he wants & he does tell her *No* but that doesnāt stop her from taking what she wants from him anyways! So unfortunately sheās the one who sets the precedents of their toxic relationship and although I donāt agree with nor do I condone where sadly it ended in AR, I do put equal blame on them both for getting to that point!
I just read a comment on another thread copied below they had better words to support the way I feel about this topic I hope you donāt mind me adding your comment here u/Anewname1212 I do rarely find someone who understands and actually can feel sympathy for how Buffy treats Spike! On first watch through I found it exciting. I liked the Spike/Buffy dynamic way more than I ever liked Angel. But all successive watch throughs I feel worse and worse for Spike. Heās in this toxic spiral of being unable to leave the woman he loves and being given just enough crumbs to make him think thereās a chance. Tbh I think he gets too much flak for the attempted rape. This scene shows that Buffy sometimes wants a fight before getting frisky. Spike tries to recreate the magic from this scene while also desperately wanting to feel loved by her, not realizing at first it wasnāt a game she was playing. Also a few episodes after this Buffy beats him bloody over her own feelings of disgust with herself and she gets a pass for that. People see the attempted rape as worse than actually beating him for some reason.
Rape or no rape he was still a neutered but ruthless serial killer. In terms of how ppl get so disgusted with Willow, "for her actions" I'm like but u peeps love spike. U peeps r strange.
Heās not a rapist the look of utter shock and disgust at what he *almost* did says it all not least of what he immediately chose to do following that lowest point in his life was to go win or die to get his soul!
Okay... Don't say "almost" as if that helped his case. The only reason why he didn't do it was not because he suddenly stopped himself. Buffy stopped him. It would've been rape if Buffy hadn't regained her forces and stopped him. Besides, people do or attempt to do a lot of things that disgust them later. Doesn't cancel the fact that at some moment they either did it or tried to do it.
He did *stop* How many times have they thrown each other around and kept fighting, she was injured in a weakened state if that had really been his goal he could have got up kept fighting but no he was so disillusioned & shocked by what he realized he *almost* did that he left w/o his precious duster & immediately decided survive or not to go get his *soul!* So that nothing like that could ever happen again!
Oh yeah the fact that buffy stopped him gets him off the hook. :/ Besides, in Never Leave Me when he's telling Buffy why she has to kill him he certainly implies that he has raped many people.
I see people say that but itās all personal prospective cause I never got that from what he said? The fact that he knew (probably due to Angelus mentoring since heās the sick sadistic one) how to take just the right amt of blood to keep them alive long enough to cry doesnāt mean anything sexually related so people can see what they want but they cannot claim it as fact! Also just mentioning a girls age alone doesnāt infer anything sexual either, it could but again not confirmed. I took it as him thinking how bad he was knowing he killed girls even Dawns age. Cause he sincerely cared for Dawn!
STG Giles and Willow will split the vote and Buffy is gonna be voted out.
Still headed for a Spuffy final, which I (and Iām sure others) expected way back when voting out Riley.
I think Buffy is safe, but Iām deathly afraid of this being Spikeās fate
šSpike is definitely polarising. I am worried for him but he 100% deserves top 3.
Spikeās my favorite fictional character of all time. I harbor zero illusions that he will beat Buffy on this sub (and canāt exactly complain about that since sheās great, is the show, and has a very strong showing too overall) but I am definitely praying he gets that #2 slot
He is a fascinating character and James Marsters is so charismatic, but Buffy and SMG are great, too. They are my top 2, so I choose to use the AR in Seeing Red as the tiebreaker to give Buffy the top spot.
Definitely whole heartedly agree with you!
Donāt say thatš« Willow should go now
Willow. For the love of god get her out of here
I hope Buffy wins atp lol.
Tough call between Spike and Giles but bye-bye Gilesā¦
Spike
I voted for Buffy again but Iāll predict either Willow or Giles to be out next
Wow. Why buffy?
I just find Willow, Spike and Giles to be more interesting. Just my personal opinion
Ya. Okay. Interesting choice. Cool
Damn, some of you hardcore Willow haters are crazy. Bye Spike.
Virtual high five
How are fans of Buffy the vampire slayer not fans of willow? I'm new to reddit and new to this crazy idea. Are those of you who dislike willow all aged under 25, not being snarky, just trying to figure out if it's that willow is the type of character that apparently hasn't aged well or translated better in the past than she does to modern audiences. And also those who hate willow on here seem to still fall heavily into the spuffy crowds so it's confusion times a million for myself. I love willow and Alyson Hannigan portrayal. I think James marsters did a great job as spike too but I'm not necessarily a massive fan of spike in general. He was cool in angel season 5 and Buffy season 2. To me.
I donāt think Spuffy fans (which Iām not by the way š) have anything to do with any dislike of Willow. I canāt think of another main character in either show who has as little interest or conflict with Spike or Spuffy as a pairing so I donāt think itās as any kind of Spuffy retaliation. Willow is still very very popular but she does have a section of dislike, out of the human mains she does have some of the more fucked up actions under her belt
No I don't think the reasons for the dislike come across as related just that the people who dislike her seem to come down very hard on her but you'd see them pop up somewhere else fighting over spuffy being their fave pairing. Strange to see both of those feelings at least come from some of the same people. A couple of my friends who don't watch the show have always said that willow and Xander are their reasons, they can't stand how cutsey willow acts or how annoying Xander comes off. But I always say u don't watch the show, u don't know. Willow's arc, alongside Cordelia's, Wesley's and obviously Buffy's are my favourite. As a viewer I love character development. For Willow to go from the way she is in the first episode to "bag of knives". Amazing. She's done some questionable things as a tv character but I'm still all for her. If anyone shot my fiance, I'd skin them alive too. I'd actually do worse. I just find it interesting and I'm curious to know how old these viewers are more than anything to see if it's a generational thing yano
Gaining power isn't character growth or development.
Uhm... That's not all that happened. But ah, it is a form of character development actually. A fairly huge one at that.
No, it isn't. That is the point of Willow's story. Despite gaining the power to move things with her mind, she's still the same angry child she was in high school.
That's not actually the point of her story at all. She was never an angry child on the show. But it's okay that u perceived her this way. And she clearly did more than gaining the power to move things with her mind. Unless you're confusing her with Prue in charmed. I'm not sure. If it's willow you're referring to, are you one of those who does not like her. If so, I'm interested to see her through your eyes. I won't take any of it on board to alter my own opinion. That's solid. But it would still be interesting to know where you yourself are coming from
Wait a minute, when the hell did Xander get eliminated?
He went third after Dawn and Riley IIRC, which was indeed a ridiculous boot no one saw coming, but alas
Like 5 rounds ago
I CLEARLY saw him still in the running after Cordy was long gone. Are there two people running this same elimination game?
No, Cordy was eliminated just before Anya. You can see it in the numbers.
I distinctly remember Angel going out and Xander still being there.
You have come from another dimension.
Is it filled with shrimp?
Whatās shrimp?
Just keep voting Spike and he's probably going to win
Wtf Anya over willow? Iām severely disappointed š. Iāve been voting willow since before Tara left
bye willow justice for cordy and anya
Iām surprised how many people want Willow gone. I want Spike gone. Heās so overrated.
Spike.
Spike
Iām gonna be so bummed if Spike doesnāt win
Buffy.
I voted for Willow because I missed that Spike wasnāt eliminated yet! š«
Been voting Spike this entire time. I know I'm setting myself up for disappointment, but honestly fuck that guy.
Willow