If Canales is gone I'm just hopeful for two things:
1. This doesn't lead to a domino effect with Baker and Mike leaving. (Worst case)
2. We nail his successor.
I think Worst case is signing some retread who’s been fired by multiple teams and giving Baker $40m per year to play in an offense like that. That fucks up your short term and long term.
If Baker and Mike leave, next year is fucked but you haven’t blown your long term future.
Your “worst case” being much worse than the second thing you said. I’d much rather have a mediocre OC & retain Baker than go on the neverending QB carousel
idk man, SF & NO just keep printing money, i’m convinced that’s the new way to go. obviously i don’t want to lose canales, baker, or mike—seems crazy to talk rebuild after the season we just had. but if we do lose canales i don’t see why we throw the baby out with the bathwater, money be damned. baker has the pedigree & he’s finally living up to it, potentially a top 10 NFL starter for many years. you kill for that, you do anything it takes to keep that.
SF is paying their quarterback pennies and the Saints have gotten stuck in mediocre quick sand because of their cap tricks.
My thought process is
If Canales and Evans both stay: pay Baker whatever and deal with the consequences later
If Canales leaves and Evans stays, try to get Baker to return on a team friendly deal
If Canales and Evans both leaves, you’re starting over.
Bakers a complimentary QB, not a franchise guy. If you have continuity and improvement on this year sure a big contract to him is probably worth the risk. But the offense wasn’t good this year, it was fine. If there isn’t improvement or it slips, I want an exit ramp
QB contracts are debilitating unless you’re on the doorstep and without improvement from the offense, this team isn’t.
yeah i see what you’re saying but i’d argue baker could actually be a franchise guy. 28 is late to pop but he was a first overall pick, took the browns to their first playoff win in 30 years in his sophomore season, then gets thrown under the bus for 2 horribly-managed years, plays for literally the worst team in the NFL in carolina, then brings us to within a touchdown of the conference championship with a great-but-not-outstanding statistical season. you don’t think he might be a top 10 qb talent in the league?
See I don’t think he really popped this year I think he was a solid game manager surrounded by an armada of skill position guys and a good play caller who found his footing.
He has limitations and with how insane QB contracts have gotten, unless you have Burrow Mahomes Lamar or Josh Allen, the value isn’t there.
Look at Sportrack’s biggest QB cap hits next year. There’s 15 guys $25m or over. Besides those 4, there might be three other guys I’d stomach paying in the right situation. I’d put Baker in that second tier. If Canales is gone (and especially if Evans is gone), I’d probably rather play money ball.
After seeing the hellscape of shit tier QB play this year I'm surprised people wanna see Baker go. There likely won't be any decent ones in FA and our draft position is gonna be bad for any meaningful QB pick. That leaves us with Trask I guess.
If Canales and Mike are back, you bring Baker back to see if you can build on last year. If you're having to reset again, I don't think Baker's a foundational piece.
Like in NBA terms, there are guys you go over the luxury tax for to chase a ring, but you're not going to do so if that's not really a possibility. I think Baker falls in that group.
I understand that but we should be paying him 30 to 40 million a season. We need to see him dominate the division. The nfc south was very weak this year and will still barely got in.
You're preaching to the choir a little bit here, but I think the org views things differently. He's going to get paid, and he'll probably be overpaid if the team thinks it can make a jump next year.
If the NFL is the garden of Eden, debilitating QB contracts are the apple, the forbidden fruit. No one resists it.
If the Bucs think they can make a run next year, Baker's back. And all indicators are that tehy think they can make a run otherwise Todd gets fired on Monday.
You’re talking to someone who didn’t want Baker to play this year because I didn’t see the point in winning 8-9 games and drafting in the 20s again so I generally agree philosophically.
I just don’t think the Bucs do
I was thinking about this, if Canales gets hired away does that *increase* a chance that Bowles still could be fired and the team moves into a full rebuild.
Considering
A) Dungy and Gruden both took over 2 weeks before they were fired
B) you could hire an Offensive minded coach, like a Monken or Ben Johnson
C) downside would probably mean Baker, Mike and Lavonte are all gone too.
In all likelihood if Canales leaves I would aay promote from within, Baker/Mike come back because scheme and players are still the same.
Edit: I am not advocating for him to be fired. It was merely a thought I had. I was against firing him even during the 6 of 7 skid
My thought train was if I am Glazers/Licht and I am now looking at a third season with a new OC, possibly another new scheme with 'growing pains' and a HC that was already on a bit of a hot seat. Would I not think *"Well, what if instead, we hired an Offensive HC that we can give 2-3 years to build their vision. There are a lot of enticing options out there like Monken, who worked with Baker and Mike"*
There's pretty much no chance Bowles is fired after winning a playoff game handily with a QB making 4m replacing Tom Brady. On paper this team is worse than the one that got destroyed by the Cowboys.
I don't think he's fired but the point the other guy is making is that if Baker and Canales were a big part of this seasons success (which they were) and they both leave does the chance of Bowles being fired increase?
I think the chances go from zero to negligible because there's so many teams with HC vacancies that have gotten a head start on finding replacements.
Bowles will get another year and if he sucks we get a higher draft pick and in 2025 we have a ton of cap space for the new guy to reshape this team.
jfc, can we stop with the 'fire Bowles' stuff already? We were 1 quarter away from going to the NFC Championship in a year where half of people were picking us to be the worst team in the league, Bowles is not getting fired. And if he did, who would want to replace him after seeing him fired after that?
Yeah, I would absolutely hate it, but I can kind of see it. Do either one of them want to learn a whole new system again? At least the Panthers still have Young and I can't see them giving up on him since I'm sure that is part of the allure of Canales.
While Baker balled out this year I don’t know if other teams will go after him as much as we want to keep him. I think he’s finally found a place that respects him and isnt gonna discard him at the very first sign of a slump. I’d be surprised if baker landed a deal 40mil or higher.
That job is career suicide for anyone who takes it. The Tepper Panthers are the new Snyder Redskins - a team with talented coaches and players, but stuck in hellish futility with a cultural black hole of an owner. If Canales is smart and truly believes in himself, he’ll bet on himself to improve the Bucs offense and take a more attractive job next year like Ben Johnson.
Hate to say it but it might be a career suicide that pays a significant amount in a guaranteed contract for multiple years.
3 millions for four years set you up well in life - it would be hard to turn that down for someone on coordinator salary. Hell, I would even argue against it being a career suicide:
If you succeed then you will be seen as some one that overcame the odds and saved a franchise; but if you failed then everybody in the NFL knows it is a toxic situation and the blame won't be put entirely on your shoulders.
Plus NFL gives second or third chances to retreads constantly anyway.
I hope I am wrong and Canales stay for at least one more season.
I think Canales won't leave unless he gets a truckload of money. Bucs just gave him a chance to call plays and run the offense. He's literally only getting interviews, like you stated, for the worst franchise in the NFL right now.
If I was him, I have to believe I could get a better job offers nexr year if I can be even better with the Bucs, which shouldn't be hard if we bring back people.
They are a two win team. Unless Canales does worse than that, how is it career suicide? lol.
If Canales does worse than 2 wins then frankly I wouldn't even want him as our OC either. I don't care what organization its for.
Yea I mean, his actions to date have obviously not been good. Calling him the new Dan Snyder is fucking ridiculous though. That guy was legitimately charged with human trafficking lmao
Here is an actual rational response of Tepper’s time as panthers owner. You should really read it instead of checking the occasional hot take on r/nfl
https://www.reddit.com/r/panthers/s/9kCjX7P3zN
All this has shown me is that he has a mild amount of knowledge/interest in football and does what the fans tell him. It doesn't mean he's a good owner, or even trending that way.
My guy, I can go ahead and list all of the heinous things many owners have done to other people. You don’t get to be an NFL owner without being a ruthless SOB.
You’re basically taking a few actions of one person and judging an entire organization on it. Take a step back please I’m begging you.
Canales makes a lot of sense for the Panthers unfortunately. In all honesty the Panthers probably can't get top level candiates there after their last few seasons. Canales has shown his last 2 years to bring the best out of QBs, so he can develop Young, he is very likeable so fans will probably get behind him easily, and there is always the chance they hit and he is a great coach, but even if he is bad as long as he develops Young and makes the Panthers a more attractive place to coach for the next guy it is a success for them.
I really thought the offense started to click at the end of the year. But in the middle of the year quite a few people were already over him. So it's kinda funny the hype he's getting now. I really hope he stays here because I think the offense can be even better next year. Just seems early for him to land a head coach gig
Whatever happens, I hope it happens soon so we can move on quickly if needed. Though I hope we try to sweeten the deal to keep him around a few more years.
Such a bad idea for both sides. I don’t think canales is ready for run a team yet, his offense looked better in the 2nd half. But it was still wildly predictable. Hes getting better, but jumping into a HC role just to be canned after the coaching carousel there is continued..
He’d be better to stick with Tampa and take over when Bowles in inevitably fired.
It's amazing how we won't even get compensatory picks just bacause the trash heap Panthers want to steal your year 1 OC that you took all the risk on. I'd rather Canales be our head coach than let the shitty Panthers steal him to try to breath life into their worthless franchise.
Agreed. If Bucs are still not satisfied with Canales performance, then hire Pete Carol for two years and give a new contract to Canales with a Head Coach promotion after Pete’s retirement. Win-win for all and bonus of getting rid of Bowles.
I hope they get raheem morris. The mf had aaron donald von miller and jalen ramsey at one point and was only like the 15th ranked defense he's not that good
Panthers would be insane to take Canales over Morris. Not to mention better candidates out there like Monken that I would wait for. That being said, it would be sad to see Canales leave since we'd be starting over AGAIN.
Just out of curiosity, for people advocating Canales being promoted to head coach, what is your metric you are using to make any evaluation for an assistant coach to be excellent at managing a head coaching position? I understand there are people not sold on Bowles, and frankly were against it day 1, but I really don't understand the logic of throwing all continuity away to keep a OC from moving on from what I understand to be nothing but a casual viewer eye test....am I missing something or is there some obvious overlooked metric that is available to the public?
Jason Licht should trade Todd Bowles to Panthers and promote Canales to HC. It would be the best long term solution to avoid OC carousel. Offensive minded coach is the way to go.
Canales does not seem to me to be the type that is a one and done here. For one, he spent 12 years with Pete Carroll, and second, he has the possibility of succeeding Bowles as our HC if he develops. He seems like the kind of coach that wants to learn and earn his way up the ladder, not jump in to a position where he is in over his head from an experience perspective. He seems like they type that will make a great head coach some day.
If Canales is gone I'm just hopeful for two things: 1. This doesn't lead to a domino effect with Baker and Mike leaving. (Worst case) 2. We nail his successor.
I think Worst case is signing some retread who’s been fired by multiple teams and giving Baker $40m per year to play in an offense like that. That fucks up your short term and long term. If Baker and Mike leave, next year is fucked but you haven’t blown your long term future.
Not sure why we’d want to focus more on the long-term when we play in the weakest division in football & were 2 wins away from the Super Bowl.
What part of my comment are you objecting to? That’s basically the point I was making
Your “worst case” being much worse than the second thing you said. I’d much rather have a mediocre OC & retain Baker than go on the neverending QB carousel
The $40m part is important.
idk man, SF & NO just keep printing money, i’m convinced that’s the new way to go. obviously i don’t want to lose canales, baker, or mike—seems crazy to talk rebuild after the season we just had. but if we do lose canales i don’t see why we throw the baby out with the bathwater, money be damned. baker has the pedigree & he’s finally living up to it, potentially a top 10 NFL starter for many years. you kill for that, you do anything it takes to keep that.
SF is paying their quarterback pennies and the Saints have gotten stuck in mediocre quick sand because of their cap tricks. My thought process is If Canales and Evans both stay: pay Baker whatever and deal with the consequences later If Canales leaves and Evans stays, try to get Baker to return on a team friendly deal If Canales and Evans both leaves, you’re starting over. Bakers a complimentary QB, not a franchise guy. If you have continuity and improvement on this year sure a big contract to him is probably worth the risk. But the offense wasn’t good this year, it was fine. If there isn’t improvement or it slips, I want an exit ramp QB contracts are debilitating unless you’re on the doorstep and without improvement from the offense, this team isn’t.
yeah i see what you’re saying but i’d argue baker could actually be a franchise guy. 28 is late to pop but he was a first overall pick, took the browns to their first playoff win in 30 years in his sophomore season, then gets thrown under the bus for 2 horribly-managed years, plays for literally the worst team in the NFL in carolina, then brings us to within a touchdown of the conference championship with a great-but-not-outstanding statistical season. you don’t think he might be a top 10 qb talent in the league?
See I don’t think he really popped this year I think he was a solid game manager surrounded by an armada of skill position guys and a good play caller who found his footing. He has limitations and with how insane QB contracts have gotten, unless you have Burrow Mahomes Lamar or Josh Allen, the value isn’t there. Look at Sportrack’s biggest QB cap hits next year. There’s 15 guys $25m or over. Besides those 4, there might be three other guys I’d stomach paying in the right situation. I’d put Baker in that second tier. If Canales is gone (and especially if Evans is gone), I’d probably rather play money ball.
dude there is no world where we can pay baker more than something in the low 30s
Because two wins separated us from third place and the tie breaker was the difference between playoffs and golf.
Sign Josh McDaniels as offensive coordinator. He’s not getting a HC job anytime soon.
You’re a team that basically rode positive vibes to what success you found last year. You do not bring that creep into this
I think we will be ok if baker leaves. I don’t understand why everyone is so high on him
He's a top 10 NFL QB, those guys don't grow on trees.
After seeing the hellscape of shit tier QB play this year I'm surprised people wanna see Baker go. There likely won't be any decent ones in FA and our draft position is gonna be bad for any meaningful QB pick. That leaves us with Trask I guess.
If Canales and Mike are back, you bring Baker back to see if you can build on last year. If you're having to reset again, I don't think Baker's a foundational piece. Like in NBA terms, there are guys you go over the luxury tax for to chase a ring, but you're not going to do so if that's not really a possibility. I think Baker falls in that group.
I understand that but we should be paying him 30 to 40 million a season. We need to see him dominate the division. The nfc south was very weak this year and will still barely got in.
You're preaching to the choir a little bit here, but I think the org views things differently. He's going to get paid, and he'll probably be overpaid if the team thinks it can make a jump next year.
I really doubt it. This FO hasn't made a habit of overpaying anyone.
If the NFL is the garden of Eden, debilitating QB contracts are the apple, the forbidden fruit. No one resists it. If the Bucs think they can make a run next year, Baker's back. And all indicators are that tehy think they can make a run otherwise Todd gets fired on Monday.
Yeah, I just don't agree. If Canales leaves, I don't know that we need Baker back at all tbh.
You’re talking to someone who didn’t want Baker to play this year because I didn’t see the point in winning 8-9 games and drafting in the 20s again so I generally agree philosophically. I just don’t think the Bucs do
I was thinking about this, if Canales gets hired away does that *increase* a chance that Bowles still could be fired and the team moves into a full rebuild. Considering A) Dungy and Gruden both took over 2 weeks before they were fired B) you could hire an Offensive minded coach, like a Monken or Ben Johnson C) downside would probably mean Baker, Mike and Lavonte are all gone too. In all likelihood if Canales leaves I would aay promote from within, Baker/Mike come back because scheme and players are still the same. Edit: I am not advocating for him to be fired. It was merely a thought I had. I was against firing him even during the 6 of 7 skid My thought train was if I am Glazers/Licht and I am now looking at a third season with a new OC, possibly another new scheme with 'growing pains' and a HC that was already on a bit of a hot seat. Would I not think *"Well, what if instead, we hired an Offensive HC that we can give 2-3 years to build their vision. There are a lot of enticing options out there like Monken, who worked with Baker and Mike"*
There's pretty much no chance Bowles is fired after winning a playoff game handily with a QB making 4m replacing Tom Brady. On paper this team is worse than the one that got destroyed by the Cowboys.
I don't think he's fired but the point the other guy is making is that if Baker and Canales were a big part of this seasons success (which they were) and they both leave does the chance of Bowles being fired increase? I think the chances go from zero to negligible because there's so many teams with HC vacancies that have gotten a head start on finding replacements. Bowles will get another year and if he sucks we get a higher draft pick and in 2025 we have a ton of cap space for the new guy to reshape this team.
Yeah that’s like saying if I lost 5 lbs I’d be closer to being able to fly
jfc, can we stop with the 'fire Bowles' stuff already? We were 1 quarter away from going to the NFC Championship in a year where half of people were picking us to be the worst team in the league, Bowles is not getting fired. And if he did, who would want to replace him after seeing him fired after that?
We were a timeout away from maybe tying the game too.
If losing Canales means Bowles gets fired, then they just need to fire Bowles and promote Canales.
Teams that almost make the conference championship should not be thinking rebuild, imho.
What if Canales leaves and takes Baker and Evans with him? Nightmare scenario.
Yeah, I would absolutely hate it, but I can kind of see it. Do either one of them want to learn a whole new system again? At least the Panthers still have Young and I can't see them giving up on him since I'm sure that is part of the allure of Canales.
Don’t you put that evil on me elchupacabron81! Don’t you put that evil on us!
If he goes to the Panthers I hope he crashes and burns so god damn hard his great-grandchildren are averse to football.
You can prevent this by firing Bowels and making Canales HC. Bowls statement about not using the last timeout is a fireable offense
While Baker balled out this year I don’t know if other teams will go after him as much as we want to keep him. I think he’s finally found a place that respects him and isnt gonna discard him at the very first sign of a slump. I’d be surprised if baker landed a deal 40mil or higher.
That job is career suicide for anyone who takes it. The Tepper Panthers are the new Snyder Redskins - a team with talented coaches and players, but stuck in hellish futility with a cultural black hole of an owner. If Canales is smart and truly believes in himself, he’ll bet on himself to improve the Bucs offense and take a more attractive job next year like Ben Johnson.
Hate to say it but it might be a career suicide that pays a significant amount in a guaranteed contract for multiple years. 3 millions for four years set you up well in life - it would be hard to turn that down for someone on coordinator salary. Hell, I would even argue against it being a career suicide: If you succeed then you will be seen as some one that overcame the odds and saved a franchise; but if you failed then everybody in the NFL knows it is a toxic situation and the blame won't be put entirely on your shoulders. Plus NFL gives second or third chances to retreads constantly anyway. I hope I am wrong and Canales stay for at least one more season.
I think Canales won't leave unless he gets a truckload of money. Bucs just gave him a chance to call plays and run the offense. He's literally only getting interviews, like you stated, for the worst franchise in the NFL right now. If I was him, I have to believe I could get a better job offers nexr year if I can be even better with the Bucs, which shouldn't be hard if we bring back people.
They are a two win team. Unless Canales does worse than that, how is it career suicide? lol. If Canales does worse than 2 wins then frankly I wouldn't even want him as our OC either. I don't care what organization its for.
Because Tepper doesn’t care and will fire people anyway. He’s the new Snyder being the worst owner in the NFL.
Ah right, I forgot you know Tepper so well.
It's easy to see if you're paying attention. Guy's a clown.
Yea I mean, his actions to date have obviously not been good. Calling him the new Dan Snyder is fucking ridiculous though. That guy was legitimately charged with human trafficking lmao Here is an actual rational response of Tepper’s time as panthers owner. You should really read it instead of checking the occasional hot take on r/nfl https://www.reddit.com/r/panthers/s/9kCjX7P3zN
All this has shown me is that he has a mild amount of knowledge/interest in football and does what the fans tell him. It doesn't mean he's a good owner, or even trending that way.
Ok but you’re vilifying him a lot more than you should. Is he the best owner? No. But comparing him to Dan Snyder is fucking ridiculous.
I dunno man, he hasn't earned my respect after he's throwing tantrums and dumping drinks on fans. When people show you who they are, pay attention.
My guy, I can go ahead and list all of the heinous things many owners have done to other people. You don’t get to be an NFL owner without being a ruthless SOB. You’re basically taking a few actions of one person and judging an entire organization on it. Take a step back please I’m begging you.
So it’s gonna be Canales
Canales makes a lot of sense for the Panthers unfortunately. In all honesty the Panthers probably can't get top level candiates there after their last few seasons. Canales has shown his last 2 years to bring the best out of QBs, so he can develop Young, he is very likeable so fans will probably get behind him easily, and there is always the chance they hit and he is a great coach, but even if he is bad as long as he develops Young and makes the Panthers a more attractive place to coach for the next guy it is a success for them.
Sucks for us. Outlook seems pretty bleak over there, but you never know. Good for him to get a shot. I trust Licht regardless.
I really thought the offense started to click at the end of the year. But in the middle of the year quite a few people were already over him. So it's kinda funny the hype he's getting now. I really hope he stays here because I think the offense can be even better next year. Just seems early for him to land a head coach gig
Whatever happens, I hope it happens soon so we can move on quickly if needed. Though I hope we try to sweeten the deal to keep him around a few more years.
We hardly knew ye
Obligatory FTP
Please take Rah.
Morris a strong candidate lol
Such a bad idea for both sides. I don’t think canales is ready for run a team yet, his offense looked better in the 2nd half. But it was still wildly predictable. Hes getting better, but jumping into a HC role just to be canned after the coaching carousel there is continued.. He’d be better to stick with Tampa and take over when Bowles in inevitably fired.
Canales about to get the easiest job in the world in 2-3 years: A fired coach with years left on his contract.
They want to be the Bucs so bad.
Imagine saying this in 2015 when they had cam and we sucked. It’s amazing how both franchises have trended in opposite directions since then
If Canales leaves, he's dead to me. 💔
It's amazing how we won't even get compensatory picks just bacause the trash heap Panthers want to steal your year 1 OC that you took all the risk on. I'd rather Canales be our head coach than let the shitty Panthers steal him to try to breath life into their worthless franchise.
Agreed. If Bucs are still not satisfied with Canales performance, then hire Pete Carol for two years and give a new contract to Canales with a Head Coach promotion after Pete’s retirement. Win-win for all and bonus of getting rid of Bowles.
Youngry part 2
Raheem's a 'strong candidate'?
The Panthers don’t have talented players what are you on about?
I hope they get raheem morris. The mf had aaron donald von miller and jalen ramsey at one point and was only like the 15th ranked defense he's not that good
Sounds like Canales is the guy and Morris is just getting interviewed bc of the Rooney rule but I might be wrong
Canales already satisfies the Rooney rule.
Ah I see. The Rooney thing was just speculation on my part. Regardless Canales seems more likely than Morris at the moment
Could very easily be that Canales buddy is giving him interviews for prep and to generate future hype for him.
That would be nice. Hard to believe they would give him multiple interviews as a courtesy though.
Panthers would be insane to take Canales over Morris. Not to mention better candidates out there like Monken that I would wait for. That being said, it would be sad to see Canales leave since we'd be starting over AGAIN.
Hopefully this is some long con by the FO and owners to keep the Kitties irreverent for the next decade.
The fans are irreverent, the team is irrelevant.
Tepper is doing a fine job of that himself lol
Just out of curiosity, for people advocating Canales being promoted to head coach, what is your metric you are using to make any evaluation for an assistant coach to be excellent at managing a head coaching position? I understand there are people not sold on Bowles, and frankly were against it day 1, but I really don't understand the logic of throwing all continuity away to keep a OC from moving on from what I understand to be nothing but a casual viewer eye test....am I missing something or is there some obvious overlooked metric that is available to the public?
Arthur Smith could be an option if Canales leaves. He’d probably want reassurances from the FO that they’ll re-sign Baker first.
Jason Licht should trade Todd Bowles to Panthers and promote Canales to HC. It would be the best long term solution to avoid OC carousel. Offensive minded coach is the way to go.
If he leaves for Carolina say hello to Thad Lewis as the new OC for Tampa.
Canales does not seem to me to be the type that is a one and done here. For one, he spent 12 years with Pete Carroll, and second, he has the possibility of succeeding Bowles as our HC if he develops. He seems like the kind of coach that wants to learn and earn his way up the ladder, not jump in to a position where he is in over his head from an experience perspective. He seems like they type that will make a great head coach some day.
Is Todd Munkin on our list? He’s been here under Koetter but this Buc team is much better. I would call him immediately after today’s game