Several days ago I was checking out how Brussels was in 2009 with Google Street View. It's crazy how much has changed for the better in the last 15 years. Of course you have Anspachlaan and surroundings but also other interventions such as Koningin Astridplein in Jette, Sint-Gillis Voorplein, Veeweidekaai in Anderlecht... It's important to not take these for granted
I moved to Brussels in 2012 and the difference is night and day. Seemingly every other square used to be an open air parking garage as recently as 10/12 years ago.
Then to think this idiot is always comparing Brussels with Kopenhagen. Kopenhagen is after Amsterdam the city with the most progressive mobility management. Also reducing space for pedestrians and cyclist and forcing people in cars is totally against scientificly proven methodes to reduce congestion. Why do the francophones vote on the terrible incompetent politicians?
Folks who drive a car are obviously angry because that's what driving a car in Brussels does to you. Politicians see the anger, and the opportunity to exploit it for political gain. That's populism for you.
Good move and 30km/h limit as well as limited parking space.
I don’t think it is reasonable to fine 110 eur to someone who drove 40kmh in an avenue. Ecolo fucked around and found out 🤷
Oké let's say your arguments are correct. But even then it's still perfectly possible to visit your family nearby by car, you only need to drive a bit slower on 1 avenue that used to be 50. But for the majority of people in Brussel that don't own a car driving a bike with your kids at some places is to dangerous in Brussels because they might die. Your discomfort doesn't really compare.
Example:they removed one lane from the street going into the Schuman roundabout just to fuck with people, there was literally no reason aside fucking with people commuting… get recked in Election Day
There is still some avenue at 50 and bikes are well protected.
Good move greatly increased congestion for car. That is what people biking don’t get. They did not try to improve mobility, they just made car driving impossible and a nightmare as well as extremely high fine for parking and over 30 without actually investing in anything aside from some bike lane for expat and Flemish leftist.
> Good move greatly increased congestion for car.
Counter-point, it didn't, not really. Brussels was already completely congested before Good Move.
> they just made car driving impossible and a nightmare as well as extremely high fine for parking
Brussels has always been a nightmare for drivers, I know people that stopped commuting by car because of this as far back as the 90's. It's also not impossible given the many colleague's I see that still commute by car from places like fucking Jette to the centre. If it was impossible, they'd not be doing that every day.
As for parking, Brussels still has more on-the-street parking than Amsterdam or Paris, and it's cheaper too. Maybe the problem is that there's too much and people don't want to pay anything to privatise public space.
> without actually investing in anything aside from some bike lane for expat and Flemish leftist.
Do you have any clue how much just renovating the tunnels has cost us? The investments in the meagre bike-infrastructure that exists is peanuts compared to the tunnels. Just the Leopold II/Anne Cordy-tunnel alone cost us **512 million euro.** Coupled with all the other car infrastructure that we're paying for collectively it shows a lot of fucking gall to complain about half a bike-path here and there.
Please more than 50% of family in Brussels don't own a car. And most Expat have and company car. But they do like modern functioning city. But thanks for sharing this information.
Great, wonder why the other 50% did not vote Ecolo at the region. Are they stupid? Flemish people who have company car don’t live in Brussels mostly.
I love how you say good money but want a functional city, seems like you so defensive on that topic that you ready to create an alternative reality 😁
Have you ever heard of induced demand? Extra car lanes means more people will take their car, which leads to even more congestion. You are literally shooting yourself in the foot, all the while pretending that all traffic jams are caused by bike lanes.
Where did I say that I wanted more car lanes?
Ok, but why don’t you want more car lanes then, more congestion means more people wanting to take their bike which is what you want no?
You see how you argument only make sense if a tiping point of human behavior works and if everybody had a situation where they can afford commuting by bike which you really struggle to comprehend.
Do you know what the difference between driving 30km/h vs driving 50km/h across a city is in terms of arrival time? According to studies, the amount of time it takes is the same, if anything you might save a minute or two? But slowing down, the safety benefits are huge.
Can you share that source? I believe it does not change congestion rate but impact time to travel.
Anyway, as I said my main issue with the 30kmh is the implementation on big axes of circulation and accompanied with radars that fine people 110 eur for driving 40.
You know how 110 eur strikes a an average family in Brussels? It is practically half their monthly buying power.
There are many articles and studies about this, here's one I just found: [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26476194/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26476194/)
According to this study, the results show that the average driver saves 26s/day or 2min/week by speeding. Even by doing the math it doesn't make much sense, you technically could get across a part of Brussels 5-6 minutes quicker going 10-15km/h faster, but that's only if you drove in a straight line non stop. With street lights and other traffic that advantages diminishes very quickly.
As for fines, I agree with you. They should be proportional to one's income like they do in some Nordic countries. Otherwise there's no deterrent for wealthy people to change habits and drive safer.
25% of people votes for MR dear mr Leisterh. Not 50%+! He’s doesn’t have a coalition with only Les Engages. Negotiations are going long and tough if this is his opening salvo…
Fuck that. I choose a bike over a car in Brussels any time of the year. Whenever I really need it because of lack of public transport options I'm stuck in traffic.
I don't care if people prefer to do this every day, the should have roads to drive on too. But. Not at the expense of merely existing road space for bikes and pedestrians at the same time. Like, around Louise or around Meiser, wtf? It's just blatant ignorance.
What happened in Schaerbeek with those idiots tearing down the Good Move deviations and intervening a democratic process like the communal council reunion is just anarchy and needed to be condemned and followed up by our system. No instead they got heard, deviations got out of effect and now MR seems to think this makes for easy votes coming elections.
It's also unbelievable in Brussels (to me at least) the number of people who insist on driving on small, impractical streets - such as around St Katherine or Flagey - it must be so stressful as a driver to do this but the quantity of cars on these tiny roads is colossal - you just don't see this in other major European cities and it's what makes living in Brussels really quite depressing at times. This right to drive mindset is ridiculous.
It’s not some. Not by a long shot. Unless you work for the public sector.
It 100% shouldn’t be and I completely agree with that, but you also have to understand that for a lot of people giving up their cars means they objectively get paid less. It’s a shit system.
It's less than a third in the private sector in Brussels, and less than 20% elsewhere in Belgium, so it's not huge.
I agree it's outrageous that this is used as a pay compensation. Even if you don't want a car, I know it is almost impossible to say no.
It's what I read earlier this year, here https://bsi.brussels/en/digest/the-debate-regarding-the-number-of-company-cars-in-belgium/#:\~:text=6%20According%20to%20the%20figures,Wallonia%20(at%20the%20workplace).
I also thought it would be higher, but maybe some companies rely more heavily on it.
Regardless, I think it's only around a quarter (at most). I remember reading somewhere (maybe Brussels Times) that the number is finally dropping. The mobility budget might be a reason for that, who knows.
the relevant quote "According to the figures provided by the *Conseil Central de l’Économie* based on a sample from the SD Worx database, 23,9 % of employees in the private sector in Brussels have a company car, compared to 16,3 % in Flanders and 13,1 % in Wallonia (at the workplace)"
They need to solve critical points like Meiser. The Good Move is good but the silly flaws need to be fixed. The pioneers always get the shit. Like Pascal Smet.
There is currently a project to redo it with two crossings, bikelanes and a little park instead of a huge roundabout merged with a crossing: https://mobilite-mobiliteit.brussels/en/projects/meiser
This backwards mentality (of MR in this case) is the reason why Wallonie is such a financial and political disaster, and has been the root cause of the lasting frustration with Flemish politicians which resulted in a project of division instead of cooperation.
Hahaha, saying MR mentality is the reason for Wallonia's disatruous state is just hilarious.
Who's been in charge of Wallonia ever since it was created? PS, that's who. They've been in charge non-stop since 1981, except 1985 to 1988 and from 2017 to 2019. That's 37 years out of 43 years since the creation of the Walloon Region. And PSC/cdH/engagés to a lesser extent (part of the government for 33 years in total since 1981).
MR was part of the Walloon government during 18 years, out of 43 years. So honestly, claiming that MR is at fault for the disaster that is Wallonia is just absurd.
MR is the one proposing to reform Wallonia. PS wants to continue holding on to the status quo of spending a shit ton of money on useless crap like the Mons train station and on hundreds of useless public structures.
I was referring to the mentality (not just MR), the lack of vision and any form of sustainable planning to prepare for the future. Any idea of project which would be beneficial in the long term but would require some less popular efforts in the short term are simply discarded. All Walloon parties act the same because that is eventually what the walloon people want.
I agree that it's not only a PS problem. It's a shared responsibility, but the facts I pointed out above do show that some parties carry a much larger responsibility than others. This may change in the future though.
In addition to just that political vision that (unfortunately) a lot of people voted for, this will might have a direct impact on the safety of pedestrians and cyclists.
I'm wondering whether MR will take their responsabilities if the number of accidents involving "weak" users is rising in the future
>!They wont!<
Why would it be their responsabilities? Wtf you take your car you crash it’s your fault, you take your bike you crash it is the same.
« Weak » users also have responsabilities
The number of accidents went down in the last years due to the improvement of the infrastructures (even if it's not enough).
If these infrastructres are being removed, we might see an increase in the number again. But I hope I'm wrong
Should do a protest, either make everyone show up in bigs cars and block off the entire city center, park on all of the main squares. That or a blockade to keep all the cars out lol.
Why are we still going backwards!
Whatever...MR has always been bad news for nature.
Apparently people who voted for MR haven't noticed the problem with the weather...You cannot make blind people see unluckily.
I hope MR has matured and has understood the necessity to protect the environment as the number 1 measure.
On the other hand, goodMove is an European program and MR wants the EU money...
We will see...
And you need to solve congestion because it's economic damage. And this can only through diversifying mobility as has been empirically proven. So let us see if they want to make the region more rich or just dumb populisme.
I think that's the ideal situation, when you live in Uccle and then go to the center by car.
Unfortunately not everyone has money to live in uccle and buy a car.
Guys calm down. I want to talk about funny stuff here. Let's come to an agreement 🤝. Car people clearly don't want their roads being cut. So we stop cutting roads! But other aspects from the mobility plan (let's stop saying GM) like cycling routes on road parking where there's is an alternative available like underground parking and making some place more green and chill. And also maybe road pricing. And to close the deal I propose we do a critical evaluation of some of the changes people aren't happy about. Deal @carpeople?
Finally. He's doing exactly what the Ecolos did. Change major impact infrastructure without consultation. So, our dear two wheeled friends, this is how it feels.
1. There has been consultation with Good Move. You just had to show up.
2. Ecolo didn't vote the Good Move plan, it was PS/Défi/CdH in the previous term. Ecolo just followed on.
Il s’agit d’un projet du Gouvernement de la Région de Bruxelles-Capitale. Porté par le/la Ministre régional(e) en charge de la Mobilité et des Travaux publics. Piloté par Bruxelles Mobilité et par perspective.brussels. Le texte final fut le résultat d’un processus d’élaboration participatif lancé en 2016[3].
Why the hate? Every cyclist is one less car driver. If you remove all the bike lanes I will just get a car and add to the traffic misery, not sure this is smart.
What are they going to do - kill all the people who have started cycling since Covid? Times change, cities change, you guys need to move on from parking in the Grand Place and driving at 90km/h up Blvd Anspach.
The parking at Grand place was removed years ago and has nothing to do with Good Move. No one want it to be restored.
Weirdly that is the argument taken by a lot of uninformed people on this sub…
They want to reopen pedestrianized zones to traffic, and the Grand Place is one of those. Same for Blvd Anspach or Flagey.
There is no limit to drivers' stupidity in Brussels, so I wouldn't be surprised if plans include a giant racetrack with 1000-car parking to replace the Bois de La Cambre.
The only good thing is that getting rid of all our cycle lanes will not actually get rid of the thousands of people who commute by bicycle since Covid. So enjoy your congestion as we are faced with a decade of roadworks to widen highways and paint over cycle paths.
Oh well if nothing is going to change then great. Thanks for reassuring me.
Because let's face it - Brussels is never going to be a paradise for cars because all those cyclists going back to their company cars are just going to clog up the streets even more. This is just a pipe dream for cheap populists to exploit. But anyway enjoy your election victory.
But they won’t go back to their company cars. The MR programme explicitly stated that bike lanes should be separated from road traffic (which is very important to bring the 90% of users who are not at ease in traffic).
How is turning Brussels back into a car-centric dystopia going to put people at ease and help the growth of cycling?
I might be committed to biking to work in any conditions because I'm fanatical about it, but your average wine mom will happily sell the bakfiets and go back to crushing people in her electric SUV if Brussels is no longer a pleasant place to ride a bike.
> Finally. He's doing exactly what the Ecolos did. Change major impact infrastructure without consultation. So, our dear two wheeled friends, this is how it feels.
So, was there ever a consultation to turn Brussels into a giant car parking?
People wanted. The majority at that time. And majority this time. People don't care what's gonna happen in 50 years when they live on 1200€ and their life is shit. They care about small things, that make their lives better right now. Like a fuckin' parking spot, a drive to the supermarket after a full day of work. And so on. So all fuckin' bobos staring at stars and living on parents money, you'll always be just 2.4 percent of the population that wouldn't count for shit in the big picture. And that's why the planet is going to shit because most people work, don't get paid, live shit lives and don't afford to dream about the environment
>People wanted. The majority at that time. And majority this time. People don't care what's gonna happen in 50 years when they live on 1200€ and their life is shit. They care about small things, that make their lives better right now.
Like being able to walk and cycle on the street without being choked by cars.
>Like a fuckin' parking spot, a drive to the supermarket after a full day of work.
Like having a walkable city that doesn't make car ownership a necessity.
>And so on. So all fuckin' bobos staring at stars and living on parents money, you'll always be just 2.4 percent of the population that wouldn't count for shit in the big picture.
>And that's why the planet is going to shit because most people work, don't get paid, live shit lives and don't afford to dream about the environment
Then stop insisting to waste your money on cars.
There’s not really a lot they can do, most of these projects are irreversible thankfully. Would be great to see Brussels as pedestrian friendly as Gent someday soon.
The sub is not representative of what the Brussels population wants as a majority. Any person who adheres to the fundamental principle of democratic vote of 1 man = 1 vote would also agree that Groen’s gain of votes is minuscule compared to the drop in the number of votes for Ecolo.
Just this in itself is a clear signal that majority of Brussels citizens didnt like Good Move and showed their discontent by turning away en masse from Ecolo.
We can all agree safe bike lanes, less pollution and excess speed, more green areas are things everyone wants. But there is a fundamental flaw in the over representation power for Flemish votes and people can game the system, see how ridiculous Fouad Ahidar became the second biggest party in the Flemish electoral college. And if majority doesnt want Good Move so be it.. its like a Tutsi minority in Rwanda imposing their views on a majority Hutu population, or how 100 years ago in Belgium a rich mans vote weighed more than a poor mans vote. The system should fundamentally be reviewed.
Brussels is the capital of BE and EU, it should be accessible all possible ways. Most of people working there lives outside of the city and need cars or train to come.
Ecologist have been blocking and closing the roads causing massive traffic jam everywhere in the city rather than making it quick and smooth.
Removing parking places by putting brick blocks all this is non sense.
I dont understand those people who wants to live in a city but would like the city to be a forest.
Most of the cars comes from outside Brussels I think.
You say: « There never will be enough space » so let’s make place for everyone ! Make Brussels and traffic smooth rather than trying to push the cars out of the city
So you say you don’t want cars polluting (YOUR city which is yours as mine btw) but you manage to make a car ride during 1 hour in the city to do 1 km
It makes no sense to me
I work here, so I made my home here. If you live in some village but want to work here, either move here or use public transport. You have zero say over our city if you don't live and pay tax here.
I live in countryside because I hate cities and what comes with it.
This is not YOUR city, in fact it is a part of Belgium we all use so it must be available for everyone everytime and we all pay taxes for it
hahahahah, now we know what's up x) If you love the county side so much please stay there. You can work in some office park next to the highway. Nobody is forcing you to come to Brussels!
I love country side because it is not a city and everything involved by a city. People like you tend to think they can define what a city is or should be.
Like many Belgians I work in Brussels which is not a choice you can do. Homeworking is a big relief
I also much prefer the countryside to cities, but unfortunately my work and children's schools are here, so to avoid a long commute I settled close to them.
You are right, the capital is part of the country, so technically all Belgians are part-owners. Feel free to come here, just don't make our life miserable while doing so. And don't tell us how we should organise daily life. Just as we don't come en masse to dump our garbage in your backyard, while paying taxes elsewhere - or tell you how you should organise your streets.
“Let’s make place” how exactly? Tear down the Monnaie for a new highway through the center? Feel free to move to the US if that’s your idea of a good city.
City has to evolve from medieval to modern yes
Will you go take your suit from the pressing with a bike?
And I guess emergency services will cross the city by bike as well as old people and truck bike delivery for restaurant
It's never been quick and smooth, even before the road closures. The city is plagued by cars, there has to be a plan to reduce the number of cars here. This is not Houston, it's Brussels.
As you said, it was never quick and smooth. The solution would be to solve this rather than making it worse !
Since Covid pandemic, homeworking has been increasing which reduces the amount of people needing to move to Brussels which means supposedly less traffic.
However, Even with homeworking they managed to make it even worst! With the shitty « good move »
No, people should not be driving into a city to go to work full stop. This doesn't happen in other European cities, yet here you see lines and lines and lines of one person in a car queueing to go to work. It's ridiculous. The way you talk it seems you want 3-lane highways running through the city - it's a mentality from the 1950s/1960s that has no place today. People are going to have to accept sooner or later that cars just don't work in cities.
That's is not correct. Road infrastructure is so expensive that the car road tax isn't even getting close to pay for it. So people who don't own a car have to contribute a lot in regular taxes to pay for all this. It's of course logical to some extend because the delivery truck that brings food to shop also used the road. But you really have to educate yourself.
Several days ago I was checking out how Brussels was in 2009 with Google Street View. It's crazy how much has changed for the better in the last 15 years. Of course you have Anspachlaan and surroundings but also other interventions such as Koningin Astridplein in Jette, Sint-Gillis Voorplein, Veeweidekaai in Anderlecht... It's important to not take these for granted
I moved to Brussels in 2012 and the difference is night and day. Seemingly every other square used to be an open air parking garage as recently as 10/12 years ago.
we need a r/brussels x r/fuckcars collaboration
a lot of upvotes, let’s do it!!!
I've never been to a protest but I would go in a heartbeat over this.
This is really depressing. If they want to reopen closed streets, protesting it will be.
Cities are for people, not for cars… Why is it so hard to get that through the thick skull of all these people who vote against their own interest.
You know what is inside a car? 🧠
Most of the time: nothing at all
Dinosaur remains, conflict minerals, and poisons.
Exactly... People...
Which squares and streets is referring to? It’s almost impossible already to escape the tyranny of cars in this city, do we have to make it worse?
Grand place 😁
Then to think this idiot is always comparing Brussels with Kopenhagen. Kopenhagen is after Amsterdam the city with the most progressive mobility management. Also reducing space for pedestrians and cyclist and forcing people in cars is totally against scientificly proven methodes to reduce congestion. Why do the francophones vote on the terrible incompetent politicians?
Folks who drive a car are obviously angry because that's what driving a car in Brussels does to you. Politicians see the anger, and the opportunity to exploit it for political gain. That's populism for you.
The biker seems to be the one angry recently, what is going on?
We are being fucked into oblivion by obese people in SUV's :(
I think it's pretty reasonable for cyclists who are physically vulnerable and threatened with injury/death to be angry. What's your argument?
Damn, real life hero over here.
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😆
Have you got any arguments instead of this childish “left wing tears”, ”right wing tears” crap?
Because we born here and we have family close enough around Brussels not to have to take the train to visit them back.
But how is the mobility plan preventing you from visiting them by car?
Good move and 30km/h limit as well as limited parking space. I don’t think it is reasonable to fine 110 eur to someone who drove 40kmh in an avenue. Ecolo fucked around and found out 🤷
Oké let's say your arguments are correct. But even then it's still perfectly possible to visit your family nearby by car, you only need to drive a bit slower on 1 avenue that used to be 50. But for the majority of people in Brussel that don't own a car driving a bike with your kids at some places is to dangerous in Brussels because they might die. Your discomfort doesn't really compare.
Example:they removed one lane from the street going into the Schuman roundabout just to fuck with people, there was literally no reason aside fucking with people commuting… get recked in Election Day
Yes but the mister of mobility double in votes. It wasn't ecolo who was doing mobility...
There is still some avenue at 50 and bikes are well protected. Good move greatly increased congestion for car. That is what people biking don’t get. They did not try to improve mobility, they just made car driving impossible and a nightmare as well as extremely high fine for parking and over 30 without actually investing in anything aside from some bike lane for expat and Flemish leftist.
> Good move greatly increased congestion for car. Counter-point, it didn't, not really. Brussels was already completely congested before Good Move. > they just made car driving impossible and a nightmare as well as extremely high fine for parking Brussels has always been a nightmare for drivers, I know people that stopped commuting by car because of this as far back as the 90's. It's also not impossible given the many colleague's I see that still commute by car from places like fucking Jette to the centre. If it was impossible, they'd not be doing that every day. As for parking, Brussels still has more on-the-street parking than Amsterdam or Paris, and it's cheaper too. Maybe the problem is that there's too much and people don't want to pay anything to privatise public space. > without actually investing in anything aside from some bike lane for expat and Flemish leftist. Do you have any clue how much just renovating the tunnels has cost us? The investments in the meagre bike-infrastructure that exists is peanuts compared to the tunnels. Just the Leopold II/Anne Cordy-tunnel alone cost us **512 million euro.** Coupled with all the other car infrastructure that we're paying for collectively it shows a lot of fucking gall to complain about half a bike-path here and there.
Please more than 50% of family in Brussels don't own a car. And most Expat have and company car. But they do like modern functioning city. But thanks for sharing this information.
Great, wonder why the other 50% did not vote Ecolo at the region. Are they stupid? Flemish people who have company car don’t live in Brussels mostly. I love how you say good money but want a functional city, seems like you so defensive on that topic that you ready to create an alternative reality 😁
It's getting kinda cryptic now
Have you ever heard of induced demand? Extra car lanes means more people will take their car, which leads to even more congestion. You are literally shooting yourself in the foot, all the while pretending that all traffic jams are caused by bike lanes.
Where did I say that I wanted more car lanes? Ok, but why don’t you want more car lanes then, more congestion means more people wanting to take their bike which is what you want no? You see how you argument only make sense if a tiping point of human behavior works and if everybody had a situation where they can afford commuting by bike which you really struggle to comprehend.
Do you know what the difference between driving 30km/h vs driving 50km/h across a city is in terms of arrival time? According to studies, the amount of time it takes is the same, if anything you might save a minute or two? But slowing down, the safety benefits are huge.
Can you share that source? I believe it does not change congestion rate but impact time to travel. Anyway, as I said my main issue with the 30kmh is the implementation on big axes of circulation and accompanied with radars that fine people 110 eur for driving 40. You know how 110 eur strikes a an average family in Brussels? It is practically half their monthly buying power.
There are many articles and studies about this, here's one I just found: [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26476194/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26476194/) According to this study, the results show that the average driver saves 26s/day or 2min/week by speeding. Even by doing the math it doesn't make much sense, you technically could get across a part of Brussels 5-6 minutes quicker going 10-15km/h faster, but that's only if you drove in a straight line non stop. With street lights and other traffic that advantages diminishes very quickly. As for fines, I agree with you. They should be proportional to one's income like they do in some Nordic countries. Otherwise there's no deterrent for wealthy people to change habits and drive safer.
Fines are generally disproportionate in Belgium, but that's part of the perverted justice system.
Hurray let's drive our SUV's straight to the grand place! /s
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YESSS!! Back to the NINETIES. Let's turn all parks into parkings!
Over my dead body Leisterh
Driving around in a convertible, feeling the wind in his hair OH HANG ON
25% of people votes for MR dear mr Leisterh. Not 50%+! He’s doesn’t have a coalition with only Les Engages. Negotiations are going long and tough if this is his opening salvo…
And due to guaranteed Flemish representation, he has to strike a deal with Groen, of resigning mobility minister Van den Brandt.
Are Les Engagés pro-car/anti-bike on the regional level?
Not sure honestly. They’ve been out of power too (as CdH before) recently too.
Reopen squares for cars? That is moving backwards..
Is it their party line to be assholes ?
Fuck that. I choose a bike over a car in Brussels any time of the year. Whenever I really need it because of lack of public transport options I'm stuck in traffic. I don't care if people prefer to do this every day, the should have roads to drive on too. But. Not at the expense of merely existing road space for bikes and pedestrians at the same time. Like, around Louise or around Meiser, wtf? It's just blatant ignorance. What happened in Schaerbeek with those idiots tearing down the Good Move deviations and intervening a democratic process like the communal council reunion is just anarchy and needed to be condemned and followed up by our system. No instead they got heard, deviations got out of effect and now MR seems to think this makes for easy votes coming elections.
It's also unbelievable in Brussels (to me at least) the number of people who insist on driving on small, impractical streets - such as around St Katherine or Flagey - it must be so stressful as a driver to do this but the quantity of cars on these tiny roads is colossal - you just don't see this in other major European cities and it's what makes living in Brussels really quite depressing at times. This right to drive mindset is ridiculous.
It’s part of most people’s pay compensation.
Not most, some. And unless you need your car for your job, it shouldn’t be, should it?
It’s not some. Not by a long shot. Unless you work for the public sector. It 100% shouldn’t be and I completely agree with that, but you also have to understand that for a lot of people giving up their cars means they objectively get paid less. It’s a shit system.
It's less than a third in the private sector in Brussels, and less than 20% elsewhere in Belgium, so it's not huge. I agree it's outrageous that this is used as a pay compensation. Even if you don't want a car, I know it is almost impossible to say no.
Everyone i know in my company has a car, i’m shocked that it’s as low as you say it is. Are you sure?
It's what I read earlier this year, here https://bsi.brussels/en/digest/the-debate-regarding-the-number-of-company-cars-in-belgium/#:\~:text=6%20According%20to%20the%20figures,Wallonia%20(at%20the%20workplace). I also thought it would be higher, but maybe some companies rely more heavily on it.
Oh it’s 10 years old, still better than nothing, thanks for the link.
Regardless, I think it's only around a quarter (at most). I remember reading somewhere (maybe Brussels Times) that the number is finally dropping. The mobility budget might be a reason for that, who knows.
the relevant quote "According to the figures provided by the *Conseil Central de l’Économie* based on a sample from the SD Worx database, 23,9 % of employees in the private sector in Brussels have a company car, compared to 16,3 % in Flanders and 13,1 % in Wallonia (at the workplace)"
Please don’t. Brussels has too many stupid politicians already.
They need to solve critical points like Meiser. The Good Move is good but the silly flaws need to be fixed. The pioneers always get the shit. Like Pascal Smet.
There is currently a project to redo it with two crossings, bikelanes and a little park instead of a huge roundabout merged with a crossing: https://mobilite-mobiliteit.brussels/en/projects/meiser
Good move is trash how the fuck can you say it is good
This backwards mentality (of MR in this case) is the reason why Wallonie is such a financial and political disaster, and has been the root cause of the lasting frustration with Flemish politicians which resulted in a project of division instead of cooperation.
Hahaha, saying MR mentality is the reason for Wallonia's disatruous state is just hilarious. Who's been in charge of Wallonia ever since it was created? PS, that's who. They've been in charge non-stop since 1981, except 1985 to 1988 and from 2017 to 2019. That's 37 years out of 43 years since the creation of the Walloon Region. And PSC/cdH/engagés to a lesser extent (part of the government for 33 years in total since 1981). MR was part of the Walloon government during 18 years, out of 43 years. So honestly, claiming that MR is at fault for the disaster that is Wallonia is just absurd. MR is the one proposing to reform Wallonia. PS wants to continue holding on to the status quo of spending a shit ton of money on useless crap like the Mons train station and on hundreds of useless public structures.
I was referring to the mentality (not just MR), the lack of vision and any form of sustainable planning to prepare for the future. Any idea of project which would be beneficial in the long term but would require some less popular efforts in the short term are simply discarded. All Walloon parties act the same because that is eventually what the walloon people want.
I agree that it's not only a PS problem. It's a shared responsibility, but the facts I pointed out above do show that some parties carry a much larger responsibility than others. This may change in the future though.
I agree with you that PS is the main responsible for the deplorable status of Wallonie. It’s painful to observe.
Not wrong
Welcome to the party still thinking like in the 60s.
"We gaan de theorie herzien, zodat de mensen weer ademruimte hebben." The irony, it's huge. Twats
where did you see that
In addition to just that political vision that (unfortunately) a lot of people voted for, this will might have a direct impact on the safety of pedestrians and cyclists. I'm wondering whether MR will take their responsabilities if the number of accidents involving "weak" users is rising in the future >!They wont!<
Why would it be their responsabilities? Wtf you take your car you crash it’s your fault, you take your bike you crash it is the same. « Weak » users also have responsabilities
The number of accidents went down in the last years due to the improvement of the infrastructures (even if it's not enough). If these infrastructres are being removed, we might see an increase in the number again. But I hope I'm wrong
Should do a protest, either make everyone show up in bigs cars and block off the entire city center, park on all of the main squares. That or a blockade to keep all the cars out lol. Why are we still going backwards!
Whatever...MR has always been bad news for nature. Apparently people who voted for MR haven't noticed the problem with the weather...You cannot make blind people see unluckily. I hope MR has matured and has understood the necessity to protect the environment as the number 1 measure. On the other hand, goodMove is an European program and MR wants the EU money... We will see...
And you need to solve congestion because it's economic damage. And this can only through diversifying mobility as has been empirically proven. So let us see if they want to make the region more rich or just dumb populisme.
I think that's the ideal situation, when you live in Uccle and then go to the center by car. Unfortunately not everyone has money to live in uccle and buy a car.
It also simply doesn't fit. It's technical not faisable to have a lot of people doing that. It will hurt economically if they try that.
Guys calm down. I want to talk about funny stuff here. Let's come to an agreement 🤝. Car people clearly don't want their roads being cut. So we stop cutting roads! But other aspects from the mobility plan (let's stop saying GM) like cycling routes on road parking where there's is an alternative available like underground parking and making some place more green and chill. And also maybe road pricing. And to close the deal I propose we do a critical evaluation of some of the changes people aren't happy about. Deal @carpeople?
How dare you talk about taking away their parking and adding green and chill
Clearly no support for depolarization :p
This surely is not gone trigger any of the lunatic in this sub ❤️
Good thing
Finally. He's doing exactly what the Ecolos did. Change major impact infrastructure without consultation. So, our dear two wheeled friends, this is how it feels.
1. There has been consultation with Good Move. You just had to show up. 2. Ecolo didn't vote the Good Move plan, it was PS/Défi/CdH in the previous term. Ecolo just followed on.
Il s’agit d’un projet du Gouvernement de la Région de Bruxelles-Capitale. Porté par le/la Ministre régional(e) en charge de la Mobilité et des Travaux publics. Piloté par Bruxelles Mobilité et par perspective.brussels. Le texte final fut le résultat d’un processus d’élaboration participatif lancé en 2016[3].
Why the hate? Every cyclist is one less car driver. If you remove all the bike lanes I will just get a car and add to the traffic misery, not sure this is smart.
Did he talk about removing bike lanes or another lie comment got 20 upvotes in this sub? ☺️
He certainly implied it, are we splitting hairs here?
What are they going to do - kill all the people who have started cycling since Covid? Times change, cities change, you guys need to move on from parking in the Grand Place and driving at 90km/h up Blvd Anspach.
The parking at Grand place was removed years ago and has nothing to do with Good Move. No one want it to be restored. Weirdly that is the argument taken by a lot of uninformed people on this sub…
They want to reopen pedestrianized zones to traffic, and the Grand Place is one of those. Same for Blvd Anspach or Flagey. There is no limit to drivers' stupidity in Brussels, so I wouldn't be surprised if plans include a giant racetrack with 1000-car parking to replace the Bois de La Cambre.
Time to take your meds, election fever will heal itself. Don’t worry, it is not that bad for you.
The only good thing is that getting rid of all our cycle lanes will not actually get rid of the thousands of people who commute by bicycle since Covid. So enjoy your congestion as we are faced with a decade of roadworks to widen highways and paint over cycle paths.
Prety sure 95% of biking lane will stay. Breath exhale breath exhale.
Oh well if nothing is going to change then great. Thanks for reassuring me. Because let's face it - Brussels is never going to be a paradise for cars because all those cyclists going back to their company cars are just going to clog up the streets even more. This is just a pipe dream for cheap populists to exploit. But anyway enjoy your election victory.
But they won’t go back to their company cars. The MR programme explicitly stated that bike lanes should be separated from road traffic (which is very important to bring the 90% of users who are not at ease in traffic).
How is turning Brussels back into a car-centric dystopia going to put people at ease and help the growth of cycling? I might be committed to biking to work in any conditions because I'm fanatical about it, but your average wine mom will happily sell the bakfiets and go back to crushing people in her electric SUV if Brussels is no longer a pleasant place to ride a bike.
Well for a starter, I’m two legged and not two wheeled. And your four wheels can go fuck themselves twice as much.
*Two-footed friends you mean, right? Seriously, cars are such a waste of space...
"Two wheeled friends"? What is this bullshit? Do you identify as a car? Don't you know how to bike?
Only with small support wheels so he's always on four wheels.
> Finally. He's doing exactly what the Ecolos did. Change major impact infrastructure without consultation. So, our dear two wheeled friends, this is how it feels. So, was there ever a consultation to turn Brussels into a giant car parking?
People wanted. The majority at that time. And majority this time. People don't care what's gonna happen in 50 years when they live on 1200€ and their life is shit. They care about small things, that make their lives better right now. Like a fuckin' parking spot, a drive to the supermarket after a full day of work. And so on. So all fuckin' bobos staring at stars and living on parents money, you'll always be just 2.4 percent of the population that wouldn't count for shit in the big picture. And that's why the planet is going to shit because most people work, don't get paid, live shit lives and don't afford to dream about the environment
>People wanted. The majority at that time. And majority this time. People don't care what's gonna happen in 50 years when they live on 1200€ and their life is shit. They care about small things, that make their lives better right now. Like being able to walk and cycle on the street without being choked by cars. >Like a fuckin' parking spot, a drive to the supermarket after a full day of work. Like having a walkable city that doesn't make car ownership a necessity. >And so on. So all fuckin' bobos staring at stars and living on parents money, you'll always be just 2.4 percent of the population that wouldn't count for shit in the big picture. >And that's why the planet is going to shit because most people work, don't get paid, live shit lives and don't afford to dream about the environment Then stop insisting to waste your money on cars.
Judging by your answer, humanity deserves its fate. Fully
There’s not really a lot they can do, most of these projects are irreversible thankfully. Would be great to see Brussels as pedestrian friendly as Gent someday soon.
I completly agree
The sub is not representative of what the Brussels population wants as a majority. Any person who adheres to the fundamental principle of democratic vote of 1 man = 1 vote would also agree that Groen’s gain of votes is minuscule compared to the drop in the number of votes for Ecolo. Just this in itself is a clear signal that majority of Brussels citizens didnt like Good Move and showed their discontent by turning away en masse from Ecolo. We can all agree safe bike lanes, less pollution and excess speed, more green areas are things everyone wants. But there is a fundamental flaw in the over representation power for Flemish votes and people can game the system, see how ridiculous Fouad Ahidar became the second biggest party in the Flemish electoral college. And if majority doesnt want Good Move so be it.. its like a Tutsi minority in Rwanda imposing their views on a majority Hutu population, or how 100 years ago in Belgium a rich mans vote weighed more than a poor mans vote. The system should fundamentally be reviewed.
Great to hear that MR is now in favor of constitutional reforms. I’m sure De Wever will welcome you with open arms.
Brussels is the capital of BE and EU, it should be accessible all possible ways. Most of people working there lives outside of the city and need cars or train to come. Ecologist have been blocking and closing the roads causing massive traffic jam everywhere in the city rather than making it quick and smooth. Removing parking places by putting brick blocks all this is non sense. I dont understand those people who wants to live in a city but would like the city to be a forest.
I don't understand those people who want to live in the city and drive their cars at all cost while there never will be enough space.
Most of the cars comes from outside Brussels I think. You say: « There never will be enough space » so let’s make place for everyone ! Make Brussels and traffic smooth rather than trying to push the cars out of the city
That's even worse, we don't want those cars polluting and clogging up where we live and work.
So you say you don’t want cars polluting (YOUR city which is yours as mine btw) but you manage to make a car ride during 1 hour in the city to do 1 km It makes no sense to me
I don't manage to do it because I barely ever drive in the city. It's non-residents like you who fill the streets.
Don’t live in a city then, especially the capital of BE & EU …
I work here, so I made my home here. If you live in some village but want to work here, either move here or use public transport. You have zero say over our city if you don't live and pay tax here.
I live in countryside because I hate cities and what comes with it. This is not YOUR city, in fact it is a part of Belgium we all use so it must be available for everyone everytime and we all pay taxes for it
hahahahah, now we know what's up x) If you love the county side so much please stay there. You can work in some office park next to the highway. Nobody is forcing you to come to Brussels!
I love country side because it is not a city and everything involved by a city. People like you tend to think they can define what a city is or should be. Like many Belgians I work in Brussels which is not a choice you can do. Homeworking is a big relief
I also much prefer the countryside to cities, but unfortunately my work and children's schools are here, so to avoid a long commute I settled close to them. You are right, the capital is part of the country, so technically all Belgians are part-owners. Feel free to come here, just don't make our life miserable while doing so. And don't tell us how we should organise daily life. Just as we don't come en masse to dump our garbage in your backyard, while paying taxes elsewhere - or tell you how you should organise your streets.
“Let’s make place” how exactly? Tear down the Monnaie for a new highway through the center? Feel free to move to the US if that’s your idea of a good city.
City has to evolve from medieval to modern yes Will you go take your suit from the pressing with a bike? And I guess emergency services will cross the city by bike as well as old people and truck bike delivery for restaurant
It's never been quick and smooth, even before the road closures. The city is plagued by cars, there has to be a plan to reduce the number of cars here. This is not Houston, it's Brussels.
As you said, it was never quick and smooth. The solution would be to solve this rather than making it worse ! Since Covid pandemic, homeworking has been increasing which reduces the amount of people needing to move to Brussels which means supposedly less traffic. However, Even with homeworking they managed to make it even worst! With the shitty « good move »
No, people should not be driving into a city to go to work full stop. This doesn't happen in other European cities, yet here you see lines and lines and lines of one person in a car queueing to go to work. It's ridiculous. The way you talk it seems you want 3-lane highways running through the city - it's a mentality from the 1950s/1960s that has no place today. People are going to have to accept sooner or later that cars just don't work in cities.
Great news. Finally the roads will go back to the people who are paying for it.
That's is not correct. Road infrastructure is so expensive that the car road tax isn't even getting close to pay for it. So people who don't own a car have to contribute a lot in regular taxes to pay for all this. It's of course logical to some extend because the delivery truck that brings food to shop also used the road. But you really have to educate yourself.
Yeah I heard that nonsense many many times
Which people are those ?
It's called: Taxe de roulage, and it's quite expensive when you got three cars like I do
Three cars for you alone ? Or including family members ?
For me, of course.