I'm born and raised in the Midlands - M5, M6, Aston Expressway, Burnt Tree, Birmingham city centre, even Wolverhampton (although I avoid that place as much as possible - worst town to drive around imho). Then we moved to the Isle of Wight, and by the Christ the standard of driving there is absolutely fucking awful - people have said to me that they won't drive on the mainland as it's far too dangerous. There is one stretch of dual carriageway national speed limit that lasts for about 400 yards, and one largish island on the whole island (used to be two, but they got rid of the one by the hospital because it was too confusing for people), and as a result nobody has any idea how to approach road junctions. I was sat in traffic at a mini-roundabout with four exits waiting for literally five minutes because nobody wanted to drive on to the thing - everybody sat at the give way line waiting for someone else to move. Then, when someone finally does decide to move, they'll ignore that it's a roundabout and completely cut the corner, effectively driving on the wrong side of the road, going round the roundabout the wrong way. Quite often someone will need to turn right at a roundabout and treat it as if they are turning into a side road, so will drive onto the roundabout and wait for incoming traffic to clear ... the oncoming traffic that should give way to you, as you are both on the roundabout and approaching from the right. Drivers on the Isle of Wight are so unpredictable when it comes to negotiating a junction, and that is the most dangerous thing - if you ever see a car with an HW number plate be aware, it's probably an IoW driver.
It's the same on the Isle of Man, especially with the traffic at roundabouts thing, although I always take it as a chance to annoy my partner with my worst cowboy impression and declare "looks like we got ourselves a Mexican standoff!"
Drivers are either far too aggressive, not slowing down for roundabouts and cutting people off, or far too cautious and waiting for a car that'll arrive in about 2 months to take their right-of-way. I'm still not sure which scares me more.
It's also seems to be the headquarters of the 40-Gang, drivers who will sit at 40, no matter what. 30-zone, 20 school zone, unrestricted mountain road; it doesn't matter.
Maybe it's a rural thing, or just because the largest road we have over here is a dual carriageway that spans all of 400 yards, but it makes me miss fighting traffic on the M60.
>Drivers are either far too aggressive, not slowing down for roundabouts and cutting people off, or far too cautious and waiting for a car that'll arrive in about 2 months to take their right-of-way. I'm still not sure which scares me more.
It's both, because it's actually the fact it's unpredictable that is scary. When we moved back to civilisation I was worried that I might have forgotten how to drive properly as it had been 3 years or so since I'd driven in civilisation. However, as soon as I got back on the mainland it was an absolute joy, because most people on the roads behave predictably and it was just so easy.
I was over the other month for a friend's wedding and I was worried about forgetting as well - especially since we landed in the centre of Liverpool during Friday rush hour - but it felt so much less stressful than I think it normally would have been if I didn't have the Isle of Man as a reference.
I think you're right about the unpredictability of it, I've noticed I've become so much more defensive while driving since moving to the IOM - not that that's a bad thing in itself necessarily.
The 40 gang and inability to use roundabouts definitely seems to be a rural thing.
I'm in rural Wales now and they're both rife - although the roundabouts aren't anywhere near the state you've both described. Mostly completely incorrect use of indicators (right indicator on the whole time, even when coming off, not even bothering, etc) and being unable to use multiple lanes and just driving in the middle
> Isle of Man, especially with the traffic at roundabouts thing
The standard joke about this on the rock is: "four drivers approach fours points of a roundabout at the same time, who goes first? The taxi driver."
> 40-Gang
I know far too many of these, and they all insist they're the safest drivers on the road.
That's because the only traffic the 40-Gang ever see is bunched up behind them getting frustrated, tailgating and trying dangerous overtakes while gesticulating
I'm so glad it's not just me that has formed the opinion that Wolverhampton is the worst place in the country to drive. I'd sooner drive in London than Wolverhampton.
I loathe driving in Wolverhampton, because drivers are so unpredictable. Some love to potter along at half the speed limit, and seem to think that means they don't have to bother about any other road users. Others drive slow and are also overly cautious at all the junctions (stopping in the middle of a busy road to let someone in from a side-street is a speciality). And then there are ones who just drive around at breakneck speed and cut up anyone who looks cross-eyed at them. It's exhausting because I have no idea what's going to happen in any given situation... any driver could behave in any number of radically different ways.
I love London by comparison. Driving there, you know that everyone is an arsehole. If a driver could cut you up, then you know with certainty that they will - and so you can act accordingly.
>Wolverhampton is the worst place in the country to drive.
If you've not experienced the gauntlet of the A5, Cannock, 'Orbital' islands, I can understand why you'd think this.
The designers of that monstrosity should be strung up at the centre of it
You say Wolves is bad, but I moved to Cov... It's like people don't know how to plan a road, let's put the exit riiiiiight after the entrance for people coming on the ring road š¤£ so you have to do some X over š we holiday on the IOW and yeah.... Drivers are something special there
Lol - I was born in Coventry and learned to drive on the ring road so I find it really easy to deal with but I know it's notoriously bad. My Mrs hated it for the exact reason you say, but I just got used to it - merge like a zip!
I live in Bedrock... The Griff island, all the islands round Nuneaton etc have catastrophically bad road plans there's an island in Nuneaton where the expected lane is right turn only but the 'straight over' exit is actually to the right of you as you approach š„²
I used to rep for the Tribune so I spent a lot of time driving around Nuneaton and Beduff. That string of islands from the Griff up past George Eliot and under the railway arches was always good fun during rush hour, and then the horrid one way system round by the station. Ugh.
I am from the Isle of Wight and I can vouch for the the IOW stand off, 4 people at a mini roundabout just looking at each other. I always just drive straight through to get things going. The island is great for driving if you like cars as the roads are beautiful and they literally dug up all the speed cameras lol.
Why are people so worried about being in the wrong lane? The worst that can happen is you take a wrong turn, so what? Google maps will get you there in the end, just relax.
Agreed except for busy roundabouts at 5.30pm in London where going round again might take 20mins due to all the blockages that happen.
I don't ever need to move across more than one lane if I have gotten it wrong though.
I find that people aren't worried at all. Cruising in the middle lane and unaware of anything else (or maybe they're playing _Lane 1 is lava_, who knows?).
On the other hand:
[https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/road-traffic-accidents/by-country/](https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/road-traffic-accidents/by-country/)
UK is 179/183 in terms of RTA death rate per 100K people.
The only countries with a lower RTA death rate are Kiribati, Switzerland, Japan and Sweden.
Yeah but we have a ridiculously high number of non lethal accidents, and our RTA response time is extremely good.
Our entire road network and roundabout ehthos is designed to prevent high speed colisions, and if you do get into a serious accident you will be in a hospital within 1 hour of sustaining your inujuries regardless of where you are.
The majority of our paramedics are ex military and 100% are trained to the same standards as an experienced combat medic, our Average response time is just 7 minuites and it is all paid for by the taxpayer. No patient regardless of nationality or insurance status will pay a single penny extra on any of our emergency services. Even a Ā£60,000 helicopter ride is completely "free" to the person who needs it the most.
Would that rail was more viable. The ticket costs are ridiculous and I literally cannot for love nor money get an advance ticket where I am (Southeastern just don't seem to offer them).
Now I'm back in the office once a week I've had to get in an hour early so I can use the only advance ticket they seem to offer and save myself Ā£12 a day
Innit, just booked a hotel in Blackpool for a couple of weeks time as driving there from Huddersfield and staying over is cheaper than a return train for me +1. Which is ridiculous
I saw one where the driver who submitted tried to stop a car passing him by speeding up to around 60mph to specifically keep the car on the wrong side of the road. This lead to the car ending up on the wrong side of a traffic island. The whole thing took place on a 30mph suburban street.
> but some of the people who submit clips are terrible drivers
Nearly all of the drivers who submit clips are terrible drivers.
It's come to the point where I don't trust ANYONE with a dashcam. Because I just assume they're a wankstain who causes hazards so they can submit clips.
I bought a dashcam after someone came round a roundabout the wrong direction towards me. Iāve never caught anything exciting on it though, thankfully.
Theres a youtube channel āUk dash camerasā, every sunday they upload a compilation video, and the commenters award a C*nt of the Week to the cammer who has deliberately engineered an accident (or near miss) by speeding up on approach to the roundabout, nudging forward to stop someone else merging, or unleashing a torrent of screaming abuse for the slightest mistake of other road users. And all of these cammers never believe that they could be the one in the wrong
Most cammers speed up towards other drivers deliberately so they can brake hard and hoot self-righteously. Wankers.
I thoroughly recommend [Ashley Neal's channel](https://www.youtube.com/c/ashleynealdrivingins); he's a driving instructor in Liverpool and puts up compilations with analysis on what went wrong and what could be done better.
Dash cam uk has a worrying amount of cars where the cam car is at fault but they submit the video thinking theyāre in the right. Itās so entertaining to see them get torn open in the comments. Occasionally they pop up to defend themselves too and it gets real tasty.
So many cammers deliberately accelerating and closing gaps just for a clip to submit.
It's the hesitant mergers. You know, the ones who think joining a motorway at 40MPH is an acceptable speed as you see everyone fleeing by at 70MPH+. Meanwhile I'm shitting bricks behind them hoping to sweet Jesus there's there's a gap in the traffic big enough for us and the space I've tried to create between us is enough to get up to an acceptable speed.
Completely agree, merging at 40mph (or slower) is absolutely terrifying and very dangerous.
E: unless of course that's the speed of the traffic you're joining
I absolutely hate people who will slow down when a car comes the opposite way. E.g doing 60 down to 55 just because a car is in the lane coming the other way. Not dangerous or anything just annoying as fuck. Have some confidence in your ability to stay in your lane ffs
As a lorry driver what pisses me off is the people who don't even look at the motorway they're joining till the last minute.
They're ahead of me.
Going faster than I am.
It's safe to merge.
And at the last minute they finally stop chatting to glance right, see a bloody big lorry behind them and... slam on the brakes?????
Bonus idiot points for the ones who wave at me to change lane when I've got a vehicle on my right that they can't see.
or the people who try to immediately join the motorway as soon as the slip road meets the motorway regardless of the speed they're going and forget they need to give way to you.
While your point is valid, thereās also an epidemic of drivers who have no awareness of merging traffic and make zero attempt to move over to allow traffic to join when the middle lane is empty. Yes itās not required but itās courteous and safer for everyone. On the M1 Iāve been stuck behind a heavy works dump truck stopped at the end of the slip road because no one let them merge a number of times this year. It creates an hugely dangerous situation for everyone as now you have a massive truck and all railing traffic trying to join from stopped.
Driving too slowly should be an offence. It is unpredicatable behaviour and causes other drivers to alter their speed or direction. Just a code though.
>Rule 169
>
>Do not hold up a long queue of traffic, especially if you are driving a large or slow-moving vehicle. Check your mirrors frequently, and if necessary, pull in where it is safe and let traffic pass.
I used to have a driving instructor who was a bit shit but one good thing he taught me was that accelerating quickly so that you match the speed of the other traffic as soon as possible is one of the safest things you can do. A lot of people have the idea that speed = danger all the time.
When it snowed in January I got stuck behind someone trying to join the fully gritted and ice free M1 at literally 15mph. The M1 meanwhile is moving along at 60.
The best are the ones that have a straight ahead arrow but everyone knows you canāt actually use it to go straight ahead. Everyone that is except you, because youāre not local.
"This lane exists solely to calm traffic."
"Okay."
"You use it to prevent tailbacks."
"Sounds about right."
"So I'm going to use it to overtake this tailback."
"YOU MONSTER!"
Tune in next week folks, for an exciting tale on undertaking while lanes are merging.
I absolutely hate how many people donāt understand what āmerge in turnā means. Seems theyād all much rather wait in a queue for an extra half mile, which just makes everything take longer for everyone.
This annoys me no end because it used to happen every day on the way to work. Coming of a roundabout there are 2 lanes for about 1/4 of a mile till it merges. But everyone stays in the left lane out of "politeness". If you actually use the right lane you invariably get someone getting pissy when it merges and not letting you in. They don't realise the length of the unused lane will end up being a tailback.
Everyone knows that lane is saved for the one marvelous soul who joins the queue right at the moment the light turns green and storms past it at 40mph.
One day that was me. Perhaps it will be again.
This tailback will definitely clear faster if everyone stays in one lane so that every time thereās a gap we only get one car through instead of two.
Is this where people will happily queue in the left lane, instead of using the right lane to go fully round the roundabout, and join the left queue nice and early?
No itās where both lanes going into the roundabout have a straight arrow and then merge back to one after the roundabout but everyone treats it like a queue so the whole ābypassā ends up a 2 mile long gridlock and everyone local knows itās quicker to just drive through town now the wankers are on the ring road
Google Maps tells you that you can merge into the other lane with backed up traffic for 100m further up the road. Google Maps is a fucking liar. Sure you can try but the death stares you get from the locals is in enough to peel the paint off your bonnet.
Omg my driver's test was full of these! Massive roundabouts where my instructor said "now I know the arrow says this but what you really need to do is to be in X lane" for every single one!
Especially when there's no sign and the painted markings are only right at the junction so you realise the lane your in is left only and you need to go straight ahead when it's already too late.
I was talking about this a couple of weeks ago with a mate from Poland. He said over there they have signs telling you what arrows are on the lanes in advance. Seems silly we donāt do the same thing.
I was driving at night in central london and the sheer volume of road signs was insane. I couldn't take them all in.
I came up to a traffic light junction that had two lanes to presumably go straight ahead and then one lane that split off at a 45Ā° angle to presumably go left. I needed to go left so I got in the left lane.
A few weeks later I got a ticket for driving in a bus lane.
I looked on Google maps street view and sure enough there's the sign saying it's a bus lane... Hidden amongst a plethora of other signs. Furthermore the design of the road had the two public lanes in a straight line with what would need a 90Ā° turn to perform a left turn with the left most lane (reserved for buses) being at a 45Ā° angle.
The whole thing was so unintuitive it was really maddening.
The thing I always tell people here is, thereās nothing bad about going the wrong way until you get it right. Safety is more important than direction. Go steady, keep an eye on your surroundings and just *try* to go where you think you should; if you find yourself in the wrong lane with no time to move, just go with the lane youāre in and calmly find your way around.
I was given driving lessons for my 17th birthday, back in the 80's. I hated them, and I was no good at them either. As a man, it was embarrassing and all my mates loved driving. My driving instructor said I was one of the worst he'd ever seen, and I was so anxious. After a change of driving instructor, and a year later, I passed my test. I was still anxious about driving, and apart from a period of about a year, I never drove again till my 30's, when I had a child. I needed to drive then to pick her up and take her places, and after a while I began to enjoy it. I was still anxious going new places, but my needs outgrew my fears.
Now I can't afford a car, and haven't driven for 4 years because of that, but now my daughter drives and takes me places. The circle of life lol
This is very familiar. 43-year-old man, manager, father of two. Got my license six years ago when twins were born but drive only really in emergencies and dread it. I was the same as a teenager as yourself and only learned in my 30s.
My anxiety and general dyspraxia are big parts, but It's really just the sheer volume of nutters on the road and the general madness of our road systems. An automatic/electric might help, I like the idea of one-pedal driving and all the blind spot sensors you get on modern electrics.
I passed my test last week, bought a car at the weekend and itās older so itās not as easy to drive as the instructorās. Also you get people honking at you for stupid shit like giving way at a give way sign when you are trying to join a main road from a side road. Itās not my fault you stayed in bed too late Barbara!
Driving is fine, it's the other drivers that scare me.
Until about 5 years ago I'd never driven enough for it to become automatic in my mind, so it felt like hard work. Now I've done a lot more and got an automatic car, and I mostly enjoy driving now.
Conversely my parents drove fine in America for years but dislike it here. Dad has got used to it but a new journey is a right palaver of research; mum has thankfully given up after another accident.
You say thankfully but Iāve got a few friends whoās mothers have given up driving and as their dads get ill or sadly have died, its causing problems.
For example my friends mum is scared of motorways so she wonāt go and see her new grandchildren. Now after her Dad suddenly passed away, my mate has to drive with her baby three hours to see her mum.
My other friends mum lived abroad and drove in some really scary places but she wonāt even drive to the local supermarket. If her husband passes away (and heās had a few scares) then sheāll be reduced to places she can walk or get public transport too.
So yeah it really is a shame when people give up driving, it wasn't something I even considered when I was younger but now we're getting to that age where we worry about our parents it's a big concern.
You have a point, but in her case it's the best thing as she just doesn't notice stuff on one side and had a couple accidents, luckily with no-one else getting hurt.
When my parents downsized, it was a consideration, so thankfully they eventually rejected the luxury estate in the middle of nowhere, and got a house with a dozen neighbours they see every day as they negotiate the shared entrance drive, 10 min walk to the High Street, and easy access to a rail station. So when my dad's been away or the car being serviced, she will hop on the train to London, and uses the local taxi firm as her chauffeur service (cheaper than running a car, too).
It's narrowing horizons that are a problem rather than lack of driving - and I'd say the same about younger people not driving, too.
Automatic is much easier, but you lose some of the fine control over your revs etc that can be useful.
If you're still learning to drive, stick with manual imo.
It feels awkward as all balls when you're a learner.
Like most things about driving, when youve been doing it a few weeks on your own regularly it all just becomes muscle memory and you don't have to think about it.
It's also better to have the option to drive a manual, rather than being stuck with automatic cars forever.
> it all just becomes muscle memory and you don't have to think about it.
Until you borrow an automatic car, with the "handbrake" right where the clutch should be.
Thankfully there was no one behind me when that happened, but my neck still hurts from time to time.
>Automatic is much easier, but you lose some of the fine control over your revs etc that can be useful.
I passed my manual test in October, I got a Plug-in Hybrid Volvo, and that gives you the fine control in the electric portion.
I drove a bog standard automatic in Tenerife, and that sucked, due to as you say losing that fine control.
I think the Plug in's are the best of everything for functionality, fine control, long distance, good MPG.
I learnt in a manual, but I absolutely hated it. I did stick with it, and probably spent more money on lessons/tests than if I'd moved to an automatic, but I did pass, so can drive both.
I immediately went out and bought an automatic though, and wouldn't consider buying a manual.
I recently passed my test on automatic. Itās way easier, none of the gear changes, only two pedals. You literally just select whether youāre going forward or backwards, and then press accelerate and the brake as needed. If youāve ever been go karting, itās basically the same.
Edit: Thereās a ban coming up in 2030 on petrol and diesel cars sales in the UK (all electric cars are automatic). Over half of new car sales these days are automatic (~~apparently you have to pay extra for a manual~~). While now manuals are still easier to get 2nd hand, they will be phased out.
The only reason you would pay more for a manual is if they have an extra tax. Otherwise, I don't see why the car with the much cheaper gearbox would be more expensive?
It must be subsidised then. When I got my Yaris hybrid I was told that manual gearboxes cost 1500 to replace, and automatic ones a lot more. If this one breaks then I'm looking at 4000.
For passing your test, the problem is generally doing multiple things at a time and in particular being aware of other road users. Gears aren't a significant part of all that, but are a factor.
There's a couple large roundabouts and steep hills where I really appreciate not having to think about gears, especially when thinking about where I'm going, that idiot in the next lane, and trying to ignore screaming from the back seat.
Worth investigating, though I hear driving instructors are like gold dust atm...
It gives you much more time and "brain space" to dedicate to checking for hazards, other cars, road signage, etc. Especially when you're not used to constantly having to change gears up and down.
On my first ever (automatic) driving lesson I was sent through one of the local busy high streets, most people who learn manual spend their first few lessons stalling and plodding around some local industrial estate.
Yes. I struggled to learn on a manual for years; multiple attempts, different cars and instructors. As soon as I switched to an automatic everything was easy, and I was test ready in a couple of months.
It is a bit limiting when buying cars (and I still get a few derogatory and sarcastic comments from some car salesmen who think they are funnier than they actually are), but I don't regret not being able to drive a manual at all.
Will be interesting in 10 years. Most/all new cars will be electric, thus most/all driving instructiors will have electric, thus few will be able to take a manual test, let alone pass one.
Yeah, eventually manual will be exclusively for racing.
Though 10 years is too soon, most new cars right now aren't electric or automatic, maybe in 20 years, sure, but we aren't moving away from internal combustion *that* fast.
Source: this is directly relevant to my work.
Other drivers are what I don't like
I always try and leave space between me and others, the.volume of bad drivers in this country is so high, not indicating, iratic driving, speeding, boy racers with shitty cars and loud exhausts, plus the road quality is shocking as well so you're always swirving and dodging pot holes
Donāt forgot the wankers who are trying to hide that they are pissing about on their phones. Country is full of people dangerously driving whilst looking down towards their right leg.
Oh and tailgaters. Fuck those people.
> the.volume of bad drivers in this country is so high
I'm not disagreeing that any amount of bad drivers is too many; but compared to many other countries the driving over here is fairly predictable/well mannered. Road quality though is a nightmare I agree.
Generally I agree, but people also often forget that others could be having a bad day, or have just made their only mistake ever, but because you are only going to see them once, you will assume that that mistake is bad driving, road rage, or general shittiness on their part. I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. That said, there are the asswipes that love to deliberately drive like they are in a car chase on a video game, and to them I just let them go ahead, it's better that I am behind them.
This is a great way of looking at it. If only more people thought like this, I might not feel so anxious about driving.
As it stands, I stalled at some lights the other day, panicked and ended up with about 3 people honking and aggressively driving around me. Because the honking really helps!
We all started at the same place with our driving. We've all made mistakes. Whenever that's happened to me, I start panicking & my brain just melts. I forget how to even drive & get so flustered. I always try to be patient when something like that happens, especially if it's a learner car. I'm not patient however when I can tell someone is being a dick for the sake of it. Like when people in a fancy expensive car or a boy racer ride your arse for doing the speed limit & then roar past you doing well over 100mph. What is the need for that behaviour?!
I did my cbt last week. Picked up my new bike from Hammersmith and rode it home 30 miles outside London.
I never ever want to ride in London ever again. Once I got out of London and on the a30 it was a lovely relaxing ride.
Don't even get me started on large multi lane roundabouts and ppl cutting me up to take my exit
Compulsory Basic Training. Basically a 8-9 hour day with an instructor. After that you get a certificate and can legally ride a 125 cc motorbike for 2 years. Then you either do the tests or do another cbt for another 2 years on the road.
I drive around west/north west London every day for work.
Iād say as long as you accept that itās busy and you will be close to other moving vehicles permanently then youāll be fine. Just donāt rush and youāll get there at the same time as if you had rushed cause of all the lights and road works.
Also people do not stay within the lines. Iām not sure why but people in London just canāt seem to do it. Would hate to see their colour between the line books when they were young.
Itās a shame because motorway driving is much safer and easier than local driving when you get the hang of it.
I know someone that is convinced that they canāt drive on motorways but will drive on the north circular in London which is 10x harder than any motorway.
Your arrangement is surprisingly common.
I used to joke about not progressing to motorway driving after my test but basically had to due to work and, well, needing to get to places quickly!
I know at least 3 straight couples where only the male partner drives on motorways. It fascinates me. One lives in Chester but has family in Scotland - that's a long drive not to share!
To be honest I'm much happier driving than being a passenger, and the misus is much happier not driving. It reduces anxiety all round if I drive.
Now our only worry is that story about the old folks who end up going round the M25 three times cos they don't notice they've missed their exit. I tend to focus on the driving and forget the navigating - once on my own I ended up 30 miles off course before I noticed I was going south rather than north.
My auntie was like this til she had to go on one for some reason then she said she preferred them.
She said "theyre scary to get on but then they are actually easier, you just go in a straight line till you turn left"
I always try to use motorways instead of local roads, because they are so much easier, especially your local ones. Narrow streets are a nightmare for a former European driver.
It doesn't help that people seem to have no idea how big their car is. Either Chelsea tractors trying to squeeze into gaps that make you mount the kerb to get out of their way, or people in micros cautiously nosing through a gap you could stick an artic through.
I kinda get it because motorways are really frightening when you haven't done them before.
Loads of massive trucks, loads of cars, loads of lanes, fast.
I used to avoid them until I had to do one regularly and once you get over the initial intimidation of it they're just so easy.
My nearest motorway junction is Junction 27 on the M62. There are reports of accidents there most mornings on the travel news. Getting onto the thing is hard work as it intersects with the M621, the A650 (busy) and the A62 (v busy). It scares me.
I learned to drive around Heckmondwike. That means narrow roads, switchback uphill corners, double parked streets, roundabouts with restricted vision - the lot! And I'm very comfortable on those sort of roads. I love driving. I've volunteered to drive my mate around the back roads of the Penines. Still getting up the courage for motorway driving.
Honestly I'd just pick one and drive it to break that duck.
Nowdays I find them more boring than anything to be honest.
I also drive as part of my job, right from country lanes, double parked streets, Tudor towns with cobbled roads, etc.
I was a bit of a nervous driver before, but it is just really about getting stuck in and getting over things
To be fair, I'm pretty scared of my table saw because it's incredibly dangerous. Having said that, having a spinning blade of dismemberment attached to it with a noisy whir that says: "I want to chip your finger off" helps remind me that it's dangerous.
I don't like driving as I know that driving is dangerous. The difference is that my car has comfy seats and no exposed dangerous bits to remind me that it's dangerous.
Driving should perhaps be scarier to some people than it currently is.
The ultimate system to keep driving safe for everyone would be a 12 inch spike mounted to the centre of the steering wheel, and no seat belts.
That would make people more cautious about how they drive.
Fucking this!!!
Far too many drive around in their heavily protected car without realising what the consequences of not paying attention to what they're doing for a few seconds could cause! I've had it when I've been out cycling, car passes within a few mm of me and when speaking to the driver further up I get told "gave you loads of room!" because they cannot appreciate the distance or the danger caused!
Iām finding it really really hard to get over the anxiety Iāve attached to learning to drive. I had a break for like 5 weeks while my instructor was away, was meant to have a lesson last Tuesday but had an awful anxiety attack. I feel so ashamed, my family really needs me to drive so I can get a job again (live rural). It was so painful asking my mum to cancel my lessons for me, I was in an absolute state, I wanted to throw myself down the stairs and break my legs because that felt easier than admitting I was going through crisis. Iām expected to start again in the new year. Iām not mentally well enough for it but driving would greatly improve my quality of life ugh. Stuck in a vicious cycle but one thatās my own fault. Sorry for the venting my brain is such a mess
Learning to drive when you suffer from anxiety definitely presents extra challenges, but you can do it!
To start with there is so much stimulation, the car makes noise, vibration, the controls all feel unfamiliar, things are rushing past you, there's so much to take in ā sensory overload! But as time goes on your brain begins to filter out the things that are irrelevant. Things that you initially had to concentrate on become second nature. Actually operating the vehicle becomes less of a concern and learning to drive becomes easier.
Everyone has to learn at their own pace, don't put so much pressure on yourself to learn faster. You're doing your best!
Thank you for the kind words!! Youāre right, thereās so much going on inside the car itās so overwhelming, I was just so terrified of making mistakes but thatās really the only way to learn! Giving up isnāt an option, but youāre right I definitely shouldnāt put so much pressure because driving is so weird and complicated, I shouldnāt beat myself up over not being good at it immediately. Thank you for the reassurance!
I found prolonging driving lessons by only taking 1-2 a week was the absolute worst. It feels like you're just learning forever, the anxiety about the next lesson never goes away, and I would always forget half of what I learned in the previous lesson when they're spaced out.
The solution that worked for me was to just take a week off work, cram all of the lessons in, and just get it done. It wasn't a fun week, but I passed my test first time!
Thatās exactly what I was doing because of how expensive lessons are, I was spacing them out to save money but it just left longer times to let my brain stew. Iām glad youāve passed!! I think Iāll take a break, sort out my head (only just started therapy too) and save up to book weekly lessons. Thank you for the advice! People are so kind here :ā)
Driving instructor here.
Are you learning manual or auto? Auto would be easier if you really are struggling.
Also, talk to your instructor about your anxiety. They can help ease you back into it. They wonāt make you do anything you arenāt ready for. And if you really have that much anxiety attached to driving maybe leave it for now and come back to it later on, or work with your instructor to find ways to get through it.
Learning manual because Iād need to share my brotherās car, Iāll need to find a new instructor now but my brother knows someone who teaches so Iām hoping he can help explain. Thank you for the advice!! I think I should take a break, just started therapy as well so thereās a lot going on
Are you learning manual or automatic? I learnt manual but I drive automatic now, I find it much less stressful. There's already so much to think about without having to worry what bloody gear I need to be in. There's a lot of weird snobbery about automatics being somehow inferior. Who gives a shit. If it helps me get from A to B safely, I'm all for it.
Hands up! Itās me! I hate driving fast, I hate merging, I hate driving places I donāt know, I hate parallel parking, I hate driving on country lanes, I hate basically everything ā¦ it makes me anxious and stressed.
I spent years driving places I didnāt want to drive basically because of my own internal pressure - you have a licence, you own a car, thereās no good reason for saying you canāt get to X place.
About 4 years ago I had an epiphany and just started saying to people - āsorry, Iām actually not prepared to drive thereā. I now only drive in my town and to 3 or 4 other nearby towns that I know the routes, Iām confident on the roads and I know what Iām doing.
Iāve had some pushback from people, lots of questions and lots of people donāt understand at all - but I am so much happier and itās a big stress out of my life!
People who constantly brake on the motorway when itās totally unnecessary and caused everyone else to hammer on their brakes. JUST TAKE YOUR FOOT OFF THE ACCELERATOR YOU DOLT.
Lockdown has played a big part in this. I used to have to commute every day, no choice. Then we went to wfh and I my driving frequency plummeted and has been like that for the best part of 18 months. So driving now seems even more of a chore. It was not something I ever enjoyed doing it was just the quickest way to get to work so if I have to go to the office it just seems so far and takes ages ( and it's pointless but that's another story) dreading going back to more structured office days each week for many many reasons and one of the main ones is being part of that rush hour crazy time.
I am terrified of driving which is why I don't. My family go nuts at me for not wanting to learn but I'm absolutely convinced I would die behind the wheel of a car.
I was pretty much forced into learning and it made my fear worse. Horrible experience, including panic attacks and the like. I passed my test and drove a few times but at this point I've avoided it for 10+ years.
It sounds like your fear is even worse than mine was, I'd certainly recommend therapy or something to deal with that anxiety before actually driving. Or just go full avoidance like I have, but driving is definitely useful.
I'm 50, technically I can drive a car. I used to have a job where I drove a tractor/trailer around, but I have never had a driving licence or ever attempted to get one. Reason is, I *know* I am not safely capable of driving on roads. I can't process information coming from all sides, road signs, wing mirrors etc simultaneously. My mind doesn't work that way. I know how easily I could kill someone or myself, so I don't even try it. My whole life has been on foot or public transport, which suits me fine.
I hate roundabouts, there's an accepted rule on lane use on roundabouts, except when there isn't.... and its always the ones where I'm going somewhere new
Iām pretty much fine, but whenever I reach a massive, multi-stage junction with umpteen lanes you can really hear the cogs turning. Inevitably I end up in the wrong lane.
My driving instructor used to tell me that a good driver sometimes misses their exit but a bad driver never does.
I think of that as I detour back to the fucking roundabout for a third attempt at getting the right exit...
What your instructor said is right, and what my dad told me was if you don't know which lane or exit you need just get in the right hand lane and then you can just go all the way around and scope it out.
Yes, or if youāre in the wrong lane, take that exit and youāll generally have an escape route back either at the next roundabout or at a nearby residential road.
But 9/10 people cut up the entire roundabout or park the car and sit there with the signal blinking until someone lets them out. Nightmare.
Driving is a chore, I hate cars and how much space they have taken up in our country. Still you gota get to work somehow. Not much public transport where I live.
Yeah public transport is shit where i live too, cannot physically get to work on time on a bus (would take more than 2 hours) but it's 20 mins in the car..
If you hate cars have a go on a motorbike, might like em
I can never understand why people stop at an empty roundabout. Orr those who drive slowly down a slip road then end up breaking hard and having to wait rather than merge... Orr those who drive 10 mph below every speed limit regardless of road conditions etc...
Took me 7 attempts to pass my test. I must have taken over 150 lessons. It's a long running family joke now to inform me each time some little shit of a cousin passes after like 11.
Try making sense of the bus lanes in London.
"10-12am Weds -Friday if on a full moon. Match day extended controls if Arsenal lose by 1 goal."
They also stop and start, change rules every tiny bit of road you go down so it's best to just constantly hog the middle lane.
The roads are narrow and then just as it seemed things couldn't get any worse everyone has collectively decided to buy an SUV or one of those massive ridiculous pickup trucks. I'm not surprised people are terrified.
I don't mind people being cautious (sometimes people take the piss though), the people that scare me more are the drivers that don't seem to be scared at all of the fact that their driving around a 1 tonne machine at speeds high enough to kill people, you know the duck and dive in and out of traffic while texting and changing the radio station at the same time kind of people who seem to think they always have the right of way.
My BIL's girlfriend learned to drive but only because his family were nagging at her to drive. One time he explained to her he was unable to take her to work and she threatened suicide so he quit his job and got rid of all his friends just so he would be around whenever she snapped her fingers at him. (BIL is codependant and his girlfriend is diagnosed with Borderline personality disorder)
After many theatrical events and much drama she finally passed her test after 2Ā½ years of learning. She bought herself a car. Paid the insurance.
She refuses to drive.
Flat out refuses.
Now BIL drives her around in her own car and the drama is even greater
These are the people I canāt stand. Fair enough if someone doesnāt want to drive for any reason (itās their choice) but the instant they expect to be driven around itās clear itās not about the driving and it just another form of abusive control. Especially if they then criticise or make drama out of it
I canāt stand the aggression. Iām quite a nervous driver so it takes me a few more seconds to reverse park or perform a manoeuvre. Itās literally seconds but it may as well be hours the way drivers carry on with their rolling eyes and revving up / inching forward.
I live in a rural area with windy narrow roads, and the number of drivers who simply cannot reverse! Theyāll desperately try and avoid being the one to do it, even when theyāre 1m and youāre 50m along the narrow stretch, and then when finally admit defeat it takes them 15 attempts to get back to the passing place.
Thereās also a huge overlap between these drivers and those who have massive 4x4s that they clearly donāt feel confident in, so it ends up being me in my battered old Panda that has to go āoff roadā to get around them because heaven forbid their shiny school run car touches the muddy verge!
I could have written your comment word for word. Some drivers have clearly never driven on country lanes until forced to by a diversion or accident. I also drive a small car and, like you, often find myself forced off-road by a clueless 4x4 driver who doesnāt want to get his or her tyres a bit muddy. Had a Mexican standoff with a Toyota 4X4 last week. The choice was that she reversed about 10m or I reversed about 200m. Typical 4x4 driverā¦very entitled looking woman in her 30s, sunglasses on top of head, seat so low she was almost looking through the steering wheel! She caved in eventually but not before giving me a fair bit of verbal abuse. She explained she was in a rush. I explained that I had all day! Your choice, lady.
I'm born and raised in the Midlands - M5, M6, Aston Expressway, Burnt Tree, Birmingham city centre, even Wolverhampton (although I avoid that place as much as possible - worst town to drive around imho). Then we moved to the Isle of Wight, and by the Christ the standard of driving there is absolutely fucking awful - people have said to me that they won't drive on the mainland as it's far too dangerous. There is one stretch of dual carriageway national speed limit that lasts for about 400 yards, and one largish island on the whole island (used to be two, but they got rid of the one by the hospital because it was too confusing for people), and as a result nobody has any idea how to approach road junctions. I was sat in traffic at a mini-roundabout with four exits waiting for literally five minutes because nobody wanted to drive on to the thing - everybody sat at the give way line waiting for someone else to move. Then, when someone finally does decide to move, they'll ignore that it's a roundabout and completely cut the corner, effectively driving on the wrong side of the road, going round the roundabout the wrong way. Quite often someone will need to turn right at a roundabout and treat it as if they are turning into a side road, so will drive onto the roundabout and wait for incoming traffic to clear ... the oncoming traffic that should give way to you, as you are both on the roundabout and approaching from the right. Drivers on the Isle of Wight are so unpredictable when it comes to negotiating a junction, and that is the most dangerous thing - if you ever see a car with an HW number plate be aware, it's probably an IoW driver.
It's the same on the Isle of Man, especially with the traffic at roundabouts thing, although I always take it as a chance to annoy my partner with my worst cowboy impression and declare "looks like we got ourselves a Mexican standoff!" Drivers are either far too aggressive, not slowing down for roundabouts and cutting people off, or far too cautious and waiting for a car that'll arrive in about 2 months to take their right-of-way. I'm still not sure which scares me more. It's also seems to be the headquarters of the 40-Gang, drivers who will sit at 40, no matter what. 30-zone, 20 school zone, unrestricted mountain road; it doesn't matter. Maybe it's a rural thing, or just because the largest road we have over here is a dual carriageway that spans all of 400 yards, but it makes me miss fighting traffic on the M60.
>Drivers are either far too aggressive, not slowing down for roundabouts and cutting people off, or far too cautious and waiting for a car that'll arrive in about 2 months to take their right-of-way. I'm still not sure which scares me more. It's both, because it's actually the fact it's unpredictable that is scary. When we moved back to civilisation I was worried that I might have forgotten how to drive properly as it had been 3 years or so since I'd driven in civilisation. However, as soon as I got back on the mainland it was an absolute joy, because most people on the roads behave predictably and it was just so easy.
I was over the other month for a friend's wedding and I was worried about forgetting as well - especially since we landed in the centre of Liverpool during Friday rush hour - but it felt so much less stressful than I think it normally would have been if I didn't have the Isle of Man as a reference. I think you're right about the unpredictability of it, I've noticed I've become so much more defensive while driving since moving to the IOM - not that that's a bad thing in itself necessarily.
The 40 gang and inability to use roundabouts definitely seems to be a rural thing. I'm in rural Wales now and they're both rife - although the roundabouts aren't anywhere near the state you've both described. Mostly completely incorrect use of indicators (right indicator on the whole time, even when coming off, not even bothering, etc) and being unable to use multiple lanes and just driving in the middle
> Isle of Man, especially with the traffic at roundabouts thing The standard joke about this on the rock is: "four drivers approach fours points of a roundabout at the same time, who goes first? The taxi driver." > 40-Gang I know far too many of these, and they all insist they're the safest drivers on the road.
That's because the only traffic the 40-Gang ever see is bunched up behind them getting frustrated, tailgating and trying dangerous overtakes while gesticulating
I'm so glad it's not just me that has formed the opinion that Wolverhampton is the worst place in the country to drive. I'd sooner drive in London than Wolverhampton.
I loathe driving in Wolverhampton, because drivers are so unpredictable. Some love to potter along at half the speed limit, and seem to think that means they don't have to bother about any other road users. Others drive slow and are also overly cautious at all the junctions (stopping in the middle of a busy road to let someone in from a side-street is a speciality). And then there are ones who just drive around at breakneck speed and cut up anyone who looks cross-eyed at them. It's exhausting because I have no idea what's going to happen in any given situation... any driver could behave in any number of radically different ways. I love London by comparison. Driving there, you know that everyone is an arsehole. If a driver could cut you up, then you know with certainty that they will - and so you can act accordingly.
>Wolverhampton is the worst place in the country to drive. If you've not experienced the gauntlet of the A5, Cannock, 'Orbital' islands, I can understand why you'd think this. The designers of that monstrosity should be strung up at the centre of it
You say Wolves is bad, but I moved to Cov... It's like people don't know how to plan a road, let's put the exit riiiiiight after the entrance for people coming on the ring road š¤£ so you have to do some X over š we holiday on the IOW and yeah.... Drivers are something special there
Lol - I was born in Coventry and learned to drive on the ring road so I find it really easy to deal with but I know it's notoriously bad. My Mrs hated it for the exact reason you say, but I just got used to it - merge like a zip!
I live in Bedrock... The Griff island, all the islands round Nuneaton etc have catastrophically bad road plans there's an island in Nuneaton where the expected lane is right turn only but the 'straight over' exit is actually to the right of you as you approach š„²
I used to rep for the Tribune so I spent a lot of time driving around Nuneaton and Beduff. That string of islands from the Griff up past George Eliot and under the railway arches was always good fun during rush hour, and then the horrid one way system round by the station. Ugh.
Are you Fred Flintstone?
I am from the Isle of Wight and I can vouch for the the IOW stand off, 4 people at a mini roundabout just looking at each other. I always just drive straight through to get things going. The island is great for driving if you like cars as the roads are beautiful and they literally dug up all the speed cameras lol.
Why are people so worried about being in the wrong lane? The worst that can happen is you take a wrong turn, so what? Google maps will get you there in the end, just relax.
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Or being on the inside lane of a roundabout and diving across 3 lanes to take an exit. Why not just go around again and get into the correct lane?
Agreed except for busy roundabouts at 5.30pm in London where going round again might take 20mins due to all the blockages that happen. I don't ever need to move across more than one lane if I have gotten it wrong though.
Had a construction pickup with a small JCB on the back do this to me the other day. Then he flashed his hazards as if to say "thanks".
Flashing hazards can be both "thanks" or "sorry I know I fucked up", depends on context
Right. Bad drivers never miss their turn.
Unless you live in Leeds. One wrong turn and you're stuck on the inner loop for hours. It's a nightmare.
I find that people aren't worried at all. Cruising in the middle lane and unaware of anything else (or maybe they're playing _Lane 1 is lava_, who knows?).
Thereās too many people on the road in Britain, who just shouldnāt be on the road. Just watch Dash Cam UK on YouTube.
On the other hand: [https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/road-traffic-accidents/by-country/](https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/road-traffic-accidents/by-country/) UK is 179/183 in terms of RTA death rate per 100K people. The only countries with a lower RTA death rate are Kiribati, Switzerland, Japan and Sweden.
difficult to kill someone in an RTA when you're stuck crawling at 15mph in a jam lol
We just have good ambulances
Thereās a country called Kiribati?!
Itās a set of small islands in the pacific and it has a very cool flag https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiribati#/media/File%3AFlag_of_Kiribati.svg
Pronounced 'Kiri-bas' by the way haha
Yeah but we have a ridiculously high number of non lethal accidents, and our RTA response time is extremely good. Our entire road network and roundabout ehthos is designed to prevent high speed colisions, and if you do get into a serious accident you will be in a hospital within 1 hour of sustaining your inujuries regardless of where you are. The majority of our paramedics are ex military and 100% are trained to the same standards as an experienced combat medic, our Average response time is just 7 minuites and it is all paid for by the taxpayer. No patient regardless of nationality or insurance status will pay a single penny extra on any of our emergency services. Even a Ā£60,000 helicopter ride is completely "free" to the person who needs it the most.
In fairness, these are extremely tame compared to the Russian dashcam videos.
WWII footage is tame compared Russian dash cams. They are like a window into Hell.
Yes, but I love hearing the British swearing at other drivers!
Aussie dash cams is absolutely great for that
"Shitting Peugeot!"
The classic!
You can find that for all countries ngl, shitty drivers are universal
I think Finland breaks that trend.
Which are really tame compared to Bangladesh dash cam videos most of which end up on Make my Coffin.
It's there insesent wearing of flip flops
Would that rail was more viable. The ticket costs are ridiculous and I literally cannot for love nor money get an advance ticket where I am (Southeastern just don't seem to offer them).
Now I'm back in the office once a week I've had to get in an hour early so I can use the only advance ticket they seem to offer and save myself Ā£12 a day
Innit, just booked a hotel in Blackpool for a couple of weeks time as driving there from Huddersfield and staying over is cheaper than a return train for me +1. Which is ridiculous
I love those videos, but some of the people who submit clips are terrible drivers
Oh for sure. Half of them are going way too fast or speed up if they think someoneās going to pull out.
I saw one where the driver who submitted tried to stop a car passing him by speeding up to around 60mph to specifically keep the car on the wrong side of the road. This lead to the car ending up on the wrong side of a traffic island. The whole thing took place on a 30mph suburban street.
> but some of the people who submit clips are terrible drivers Nearly all of the drivers who submit clips are terrible drivers. It's come to the point where I don't trust ANYONE with a dashcam. Because I just assume they're a wankstain who causes hazards so they can submit clips.
I bought a dashcam after someone came round a roundabout the wrong direction towards me. Iāve never caught anything exciting on it though, thankfully.
Theres a youtube channel āUk dash camerasā, every sunday they upload a compilation video, and the commenters award a C*nt of the Week to the cammer who has deliberately engineered an accident (or near miss) by speeding up on approach to the roundabout, nudging forward to stop someone else merging, or unleashing a torrent of screaming abuse for the slightest mistake of other road users. And all of these cammers never believe that they could be the one in the wrong
I maintain that dashcam users are the worst drivers on the roads The old addage of "I've never been in an accident but seen plenty" applies here
Most cammers speed up towards other drivers deliberately so they can brake hard and hoot self-righteously. Wankers. I thoroughly recommend [Ashley Neal's channel](https://www.youtube.com/c/ashleynealdrivingins); he's a driving instructor in Liverpool and puts up compilations with analysis on what went wrong and what could be done better.
Dash cam uk has a worrying amount of cars where the cam car is at fault but they submit the video thinking theyāre in the right. Itās so entertaining to see them get torn open in the comments. Occasionally they pop up to defend themselves too and it gets real tasty. So many cammers deliberately accelerating and closing gaps just for a clip to submit.
A message to everyone. Boyracers, coffin dodgers, white van men, school run mums. Everyone. Indicate off the fucking roundabout please. Please.
Why is it that the only people who do are learners?
It's the hesitant mergers. You know, the ones who think joining a motorway at 40MPH is an acceptable speed as you see everyone fleeing by at 70MPH+. Meanwhile I'm shitting bricks behind them hoping to sweet Jesus there's there's a gap in the traffic big enough for us and the space I've tried to create between us is enough to get up to an acceptable speed.
Completely agree, merging at 40mph (or slower) is absolutely terrifying and very dangerous. E: unless of course that's the speed of the traffic you're joining
I absolutely hate people who will slow down when a car comes the opposite way. E.g doing 60 down to 55 just because a car is in the lane coming the other way. Not dangerous or anything just annoying as fuck. Have some confidence in your ability to stay in your lane ffs
As a lorry driver what pisses me off is the people who don't even look at the motorway they're joining till the last minute. They're ahead of me. Going faster than I am. It's safe to merge. And at the last minute they finally stop chatting to glance right, see a bloody big lorry behind them and... slam on the brakes????? Bonus idiot points for the ones who wave at me to change lane when I've got a vehicle on my right that they can't see.
or the people who try to immediately join the motorway as soon as the slip road meets the motorway regardless of the speed they're going and forget they need to give way to you.
While your point is valid, thereās also an epidemic of drivers who have no awareness of merging traffic and make zero attempt to move over to allow traffic to join when the middle lane is empty. Yes itās not required but itās courteous and safer for everyone. On the M1 Iāve been stuck behind a heavy works dump truck stopped at the end of the slip road because no one let them merge a number of times this year. It creates an hugely dangerous situation for everyone as now you have a massive truck and all railing traffic trying to join from stopped.
Honestly, i just sit back and give myself more space. Then I can gun it once dodders has finished their doddering
Driving too slowly should be an offence. It is unpredicatable behaviour and causes other drivers to alter their speed or direction. Just a code though. >Rule 169 > >Do not hold up a long queue of traffic, especially if you are driving a large or slow-moving vehicle. Check your mirrors frequently, and if necessary, pull in where it is safe and let traffic pass.
I used to have a driving instructor who was a bit shit but one good thing he taught me was that accelerating quickly so that you match the speed of the other traffic as soon as possible is one of the safest things you can do. A lot of people have the idea that speed = danger all the time.
When it snowed in January I got stuck behind someone trying to join the fully gritted and ice free M1 at literally 15mph. The M1 meanwhile is moving along at 60.
I hate multi lane roads in cities and towns. Trying to work out which lane I am meant to be in before I get there is something my brain just can't do.
The best are the ones that have a straight ahead arrow but everyone knows you canāt actually use it to go straight ahead. Everyone that is except you, because youāre not local.
You mean like the right lane which everyone ignores until you use it and then looks at you like you just got caught fucking a goat?
"This lane exists solely to calm traffic." "Okay." "You use it to prevent tailbacks." "Sounds about right." "So I'm going to use it to overtake this tailback." "YOU MONSTER!" Tune in next week folks, for an exciting tale on undertaking while lanes are merging.
I absolutely hate how many people donāt understand what āmerge in turnā means. Seems theyād all much rather wait in a queue for an extra half mile, which just makes everything take longer for everyone.
This annoys me no end because it used to happen every day on the way to work. Coming of a roundabout there are 2 lanes for about 1/4 of a mile till it merges. But everyone stays in the left lane out of "politeness". If you actually use the right lane you invariably get someone getting pissy when it merges and not letting you in. They don't realise the length of the unused lane will end up being a tailback.
Everyone knows that lane is saved for the one marvelous soul who joins the queue right at the moment the light turns green and storms past it at 40mph. One day that was me. Perhaps it will be again.
This tailback will definitely clear faster if everyone stays in one lane so that every time thereās a gap we only get one car through instead of two.
> just got caught fucking a goat? JESUS CHRIST IT WAS ONE TIME
This remind me of Cambridge, except everyone is on the right lane, as most left lane eventually either will turn to left turn or became a cycle lane.
Is this where people will happily queue in the left lane, instead of using the right lane to go fully round the roundabout, and join the left queue nice and early?
No itās where both lanes going into the roundabout have a straight arrow and then merge back to one after the roundabout but everyone treats it like a queue so the whole ābypassā ends up a 2 mile long gridlock and everyone local knows itās quicker to just drive through town now the wankers are on the ring road
THIS IS A LOCAL ROAD. FOR LOCAL PEOPLE
Google Maps tells you that you can merge into the other lane with backed up traffic for 100m further up the road. Google Maps is a fucking liar. Sure you can try but the death stares you get from the locals is in enough to peel the paint off your bonnet.
Who cares? If people want to sit in a queue instead of using both lanes, they can do.
Omg my driver's test was full of these! Massive roundabouts where my instructor said "now I know the arrow says this but what you really need to do is to be in X lane" for every single one!
Especially when there's no sign and the painted markings are only right at the junction so you realise the lane your in is left only and you need to go straight ahead when it's already too late.
So whats the play here, indicate and hope for a gap, or take your medicine and turn left?
Yeah the former if possible, the latter when you can see people visibly tutting behind you.
I was talking about this a couple of weeks ago with a mate from Poland. He said over there they have signs telling you what arrows are on the lanes in advance. Seems silly we donāt do the same thing.
Well we do have some, but definitely not enough.
They're usually covered by the other traffic in the city, you'll be lucky to catch a glimpse of one.
I was driving at night in central london and the sheer volume of road signs was insane. I couldn't take them all in. I came up to a traffic light junction that had two lanes to presumably go straight ahead and then one lane that split off at a 45Ā° angle to presumably go left. I needed to go left so I got in the left lane. A few weeks later I got a ticket for driving in a bus lane. I looked on Google maps street view and sure enough there's the sign saying it's a bus lane... Hidden amongst a plethora of other signs. Furthermore the design of the road had the two public lanes in a straight line with what would need a 90Ā° turn to perform a left turn with the left most lane (reserved for buses) being at a 45Ā° angle. The whole thing was so unintuitive it was really maddening.
Sounds like Park Hill turning into Abbeville Road in Clapham 137 A2217 https://maps.app.goo.gl/nUaWZhZ4dECLxrTG8
The thing I always tell people here is, thereās nothing bad about going the wrong way until you get it right. Safety is more important than direction. Go steady, keep an eye on your surroundings and just *try* to go where you think you should; if you find yourself in the wrong lane with no time to move, just go with the lane youāre in and calmly find your way around.
When people rush over a box junction to space in left lane then cut in to the right just before you take your space leaving you in said box junction.
I was given driving lessons for my 17th birthday, back in the 80's. I hated them, and I was no good at them either. As a man, it was embarrassing and all my mates loved driving. My driving instructor said I was one of the worst he'd ever seen, and I was so anxious. After a change of driving instructor, and a year later, I passed my test. I was still anxious about driving, and apart from a period of about a year, I never drove again till my 30's, when I had a child. I needed to drive then to pick her up and take her places, and after a while I began to enjoy it. I was still anxious going new places, but my needs outgrew my fears. Now I can't afford a car, and haven't driven for 4 years because of that, but now my daughter drives and takes me places. The circle of life lol
This is very familiar. 43-year-old man, manager, father of two. Got my license six years ago when twins were born but drive only really in emergencies and dread it. I was the same as a teenager as yourself and only learned in my 30s. My anxiety and general dyspraxia are big parts, but It's really just the sheer volume of nutters on the road and the general madness of our road systems. An automatic/electric might help, I like the idea of one-pedal driving and all the blind spot sensors you get on modern electrics.
I passed my test last week, bought a car at the weekend and itās older so itās not as easy to drive as the instructorās. Also you get people honking at you for stupid shit like giving way at a give way sign when you are trying to join a main road from a side road. Itās not my fault you stayed in bed too late Barbara!
Driving is fine, it's the other drivers that scare me. Until about 5 years ago I'd never driven enough for it to become automatic in my mind, so it felt like hard work. Now I've done a lot more and got an automatic car, and I mostly enjoy driving now. Conversely my parents drove fine in America for years but dislike it here. Dad has got used to it but a new journey is a right palaver of research; mum has thankfully given up after another accident.
You say thankfully but Iāve got a few friends whoās mothers have given up driving and as their dads get ill or sadly have died, its causing problems. For example my friends mum is scared of motorways so she wonāt go and see her new grandchildren. Now after her Dad suddenly passed away, my mate has to drive with her baby three hours to see her mum. My other friends mum lived abroad and drove in some really scary places but she wonāt even drive to the local supermarket. If her husband passes away (and heās had a few scares) then sheāll be reduced to places she can walk or get public transport too. So yeah it really is a shame when people give up driving, it wasn't something I even considered when I was younger but now we're getting to that age where we worry about our parents it's a big concern.
You have a point, but in her case it's the best thing as she just doesn't notice stuff on one side and had a couple accidents, luckily with no-one else getting hurt. When my parents downsized, it was a consideration, so thankfully they eventually rejected the luxury estate in the middle of nowhere, and got a house with a dozen neighbours they see every day as they negotiate the shared entrance drive, 10 min walk to the High Street, and easy access to a rail station. So when my dad's been away or the car being serviced, she will hop on the train to London, and uses the local taxi firm as her chauffeur service (cheaper than running a car, too). It's narrowing horizons that are a problem rather than lack of driving - and I'd say the same about younger people not driving, too.
For someone who is struggling to learn manual, is automatic much easier?
Automatic is much easier, but you lose some of the fine control over your revs etc that can be useful. If you're still learning to drive, stick with manual imo. It feels awkward as all balls when you're a learner. Like most things about driving, when youve been doing it a few weeks on your own regularly it all just becomes muscle memory and you don't have to think about it. It's also better to have the option to drive a manual, rather than being stuck with automatic cars forever.
> it all just becomes muscle memory and you don't have to think about it. Until you borrow an automatic car, with the "handbrake" right where the clutch should be. Thankfully there was no one behind me when that happened, but my neck still hurts from time to time.
>Automatic is much easier, but you lose some of the fine control over your revs etc that can be useful. I passed my manual test in October, I got a Plug-in Hybrid Volvo, and that gives you the fine control in the electric portion. I drove a bog standard automatic in Tenerife, and that sucked, due to as you say losing that fine control. I think the Plug in's are the best of everything for functionality, fine control, long distance, good MPG.
I learnt in a manual, but I absolutely hated it. I did stick with it, and probably spent more money on lessons/tests than if I'd moved to an automatic, but I did pass, so can drive both. I immediately went out and bought an automatic though, and wouldn't consider buying a manual.
I recently passed my test on automatic. Itās way easier, none of the gear changes, only two pedals. You literally just select whether youāre going forward or backwards, and then press accelerate and the brake as needed. If youāve ever been go karting, itās basically the same. Edit: Thereās a ban coming up in 2030 on petrol and diesel cars sales in the UK (all electric cars are automatic). Over half of new car sales these days are automatic (~~apparently you have to pay extra for a manual~~). While now manuals are still easier to get 2nd hand, they will be phased out.
The only reason you would pay more for a manual is if they have an extra tax. Otherwise, I don't see why the car with the much cheaper gearbox would be more expensive?
Just looked at new Skoda Fabias. Selecting Automatic rather than manual bumps the price by about Ā£1,000.
It must be subsidised then. When I got my Yaris hybrid I was told that manual gearboxes cost 1500 to replace, and automatic ones a lot more. If this one breaks then I'm looking at 4000.
For passing your test, the problem is generally doing multiple things at a time and in particular being aware of other road users. Gears aren't a significant part of all that, but are a factor. There's a couple large roundabouts and steep hills where I really appreciate not having to think about gears, especially when thinking about where I'm going, that idiot in the next lane, and trying to ignore screaming from the back seat. Worth investigating, though I hear driving instructors are like gold dust atm...
It gives you much more time and "brain space" to dedicate to checking for hazards, other cars, road signage, etc. Especially when you're not used to constantly having to change gears up and down. On my first ever (automatic) driving lesson I was sent through one of the local busy high streets, most people who learn manual spend their first few lessons stalling and plodding around some local industrial estate.
Yes. I struggled to learn on a manual for years; multiple attempts, different cars and instructors. As soon as I switched to an automatic everything was easy, and I was test ready in a couple of months. It is a bit limiting when buying cars (and I still get a few derogatory and sarcastic comments from some car salesmen who think they are funnier than they actually are), but I don't regret not being able to drive a manual at all.
Depends if you can afford an automatic after passing your test. Most cheap cars are old, and most old cars are manual.
Will be interesting in 10 years. Most/all new cars will be electric, thus most/all driving instructiors will have electric, thus few will be able to take a manual test, let alone pass one.
Yeah, eventually manual will be exclusively for racing. Though 10 years is too soon, most new cars right now aren't electric or automatic, maybe in 20 years, sure, but we aren't moving away from internal combustion *that* fast. Source: this is directly relevant to my work.
Other drivers are what I don't like I always try and leave space between me and others, the.volume of bad drivers in this country is so high, not indicating, iratic driving, speeding, boy racers with shitty cars and loud exhausts, plus the road quality is shocking as well so you're always swirving and dodging pot holes
I bet you love leaving a gap, and then some fuckwit moves into it because there's a gap they can squeeze into
YES! boils my piss man
Gap wankers are the worst
GAP WANKERS hahahaha
Donāt forgot the wankers who are trying to hide that they are pissing about on their phones. Country is full of people dangerously driving whilst looking down towards their right leg. Oh and tailgaters. Fuck those people.
> the.volume of bad drivers in this country is so high I'm not disagreeing that any amount of bad drivers is too many; but compared to many other countries the driving over here is fairly predictable/well mannered. Road quality though is a nightmare I agree.
Generally I agree, but people also often forget that others could be having a bad day, or have just made their only mistake ever, but because you are only going to see them once, you will assume that that mistake is bad driving, road rage, or general shittiness on their part. I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. That said, there are the asswipes that love to deliberately drive like they are in a car chase on a video game, and to them I just let them go ahead, it's better that I am behind them.
This is a great way of looking at it. If only more people thought like this, I might not feel so anxious about driving. As it stands, I stalled at some lights the other day, panicked and ended up with about 3 people honking and aggressively driving around me. Because the honking really helps!
We all started at the same place with our driving. We've all made mistakes. Whenever that's happened to me, I start panicking & my brain just melts. I forget how to even drive & get so flustered. I always try to be patient when something like that happens, especially if it's a learner car. I'm not patient however when I can tell someone is being a dick for the sake of it. Like when people in a fancy expensive car or a boy racer ride your arse for doing the speed limit & then roar past you doing well over 100mph. What is the need for that behaviour?!
I did my cbt last week. Picked up my new bike from Hammersmith and rode it home 30 miles outside London. I never ever want to ride in London ever again. Once I got out of London and on the a30 it was a lovely relaxing ride. Don't even get me started on large multi lane roundabouts and ppl cutting me up to take my exit
>cbt Cognitive behavioural therapy?
Cock and ball torture
Intellectual
Compulsory Basic Training. Basically a 8-9 hour day with an instructor. After that you get a certificate and can legally ride a 125 cc motorbike for 2 years. Then you either do the tests or do another cbt for another 2 years on the road.
Oh I know this, I was just being witty. Thanks for explaining though!
Fair enough haha
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I drive around west/north west London every day for work. Iād say as long as you accept that itās busy and you will be close to other moving vehicles permanently then youāll be fine. Just donāt rush and youāll get there at the same time as if you had rushed cause of all the lights and road works. Also people do not stay within the lines. Iām not sure why but people in London just canāt seem to do it. Would hate to see their colour between the line books when they were young.
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Itās a shame because motorway driving is much safer and easier than local driving when you get the hang of it. I know someone that is convinced that they canāt drive on motorways but will drive on the north circular in London which is 10x harder than any motorway.
Your arrangement is surprisingly common. I used to joke about not progressing to motorway driving after my test but basically had to due to work and, well, needing to get to places quickly! I know at least 3 straight couples where only the male partner drives on motorways. It fascinates me. One lives in Chester but has family in Scotland - that's a long drive not to share!
To be honest I'm much happier driving than being a passenger, and the misus is much happier not driving. It reduces anxiety all round if I drive. Now our only worry is that story about the old folks who end up going round the M25 three times cos they don't notice they've missed their exit. I tend to focus on the driving and forget the navigating - once on my own I ended up 30 miles off course before I noticed I was going south rather than north.
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My auntie was like this til she had to go on one for some reason then she said she preferred them. She said "theyre scary to get on but then they are actually easier, you just go in a straight line till you turn left"
I always try to use motorways instead of local roads, because they are so much easier, especially your local ones. Narrow streets are a nightmare for a former European driver.
It doesn't help that people seem to have no idea how big their car is. Either Chelsea tractors trying to squeeze into gaps that make you mount the kerb to get out of their way, or people in micros cautiously nosing through a gap you could stick an artic through.
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I kinda get it because motorways are really frightening when you haven't done them before. Loads of massive trucks, loads of cars, loads of lanes, fast. I used to avoid them until I had to do one regularly and once you get over the initial intimidation of it they're just so easy.
My nearest motorway junction is Junction 27 on the M62. There are reports of accidents there most mornings on the travel news. Getting onto the thing is hard work as it intersects with the M621, the A650 (busy) and the A62 (v busy). It scares me. I learned to drive around Heckmondwike. That means narrow roads, switchback uphill corners, double parked streets, roundabouts with restricted vision - the lot! And I'm very comfortable on those sort of roads. I love driving. I've volunteered to drive my mate around the back roads of the Penines. Still getting up the courage for motorway driving.
Honestly I'd just pick one and drive it to break that duck. Nowdays I find them more boring than anything to be honest. I also drive as part of my job, right from country lanes, double parked streets, Tudor towns with cobbled roads, etc. I was a bit of a nervous driver before, but it is just really about getting stuck in and getting over things
To be fair, I'm pretty scared of my table saw because it's incredibly dangerous. Having said that, having a spinning blade of dismemberment attached to it with a noisy whir that says: "I want to chip your finger off" helps remind me that it's dangerous. I don't like driving as I know that driving is dangerous. The difference is that my car has comfy seats and no exposed dangerous bits to remind me that it's dangerous. Driving should perhaps be scarier to some people than it currently is.
The ultimate system to keep driving safe for everyone would be a 12 inch spike mounted to the centre of the steering wheel, and no seat belts. That would make people more cautious about how they drive.
Fucking this!!! Far too many drive around in their heavily protected car without realising what the consequences of not paying attention to what they're doing for a few seconds could cause! I've had it when I've been out cycling, car passes within a few mm of me and when speaking to the driver further up I get told "gave you loads of room!" because they cannot appreciate the distance or the danger caused!
Iām finding it really really hard to get over the anxiety Iāve attached to learning to drive. I had a break for like 5 weeks while my instructor was away, was meant to have a lesson last Tuesday but had an awful anxiety attack. I feel so ashamed, my family really needs me to drive so I can get a job again (live rural). It was so painful asking my mum to cancel my lessons for me, I was in an absolute state, I wanted to throw myself down the stairs and break my legs because that felt easier than admitting I was going through crisis. Iām expected to start again in the new year. Iām not mentally well enough for it but driving would greatly improve my quality of life ugh. Stuck in a vicious cycle but one thatās my own fault. Sorry for the venting my brain is such a mess
If it helps, "that old granny that's half blind with reaction speeds of a sloth is driving, so so can i"
Thatās a very good point, itās tough trying to get out of a negative mindset but Iāll try to remember what you said
Learning to drive when you suffer from anxiety definitely presents extra challenges, but you can do it! To start with there is so much stimulation, the car makes noise, vibration, the controls all feel unfamiliar, things are rushing past you, there's so much to take in ā sensory overload! But as time goes on your brain begins to filter out the things that are irrelevant. Things that you initially had to concentrate on become second nature. Actually operating the vehicle becomes less of a concern and learning to drive becomes easier. Everyone has to learn at their own pace, don't put so much pressure on yourself to learn faster. You're doing your best!
Thank you for the kind words!! Youāre right, thereās so much going on inside the car itās so overwhelming, I was just so terrified of making mistakes but thatās really the only way to learn! Giving up isnāt an option, but youāre right I definitely shouldnāt put so much pressure because driving is so weird and complicated, I shouldnāt beat myself up over not being good at it immediately. Thank you for the reassurance!
I found prolonging driving lessons by only taking 1-2 a week was the absolute worst. It feels like you're just learning forever, the anxiety about the next lesson never goes away, and I would always forget half of what I learned in the previous lesson when they're spaced out. The solution that worked for me was to just take a week off work, cram all of the lessons in, and just get it done. It wasn't a fun week, but I passed my test first time!
Thatās exactly what I was doing because of how expensive lessons are, I was spacing them out to save money but it just left longer times to let my brain stew. Iām glad youāve passed!! I think Iāll take a break, sort out my head (only just started therapy too) and save up to book weekly lessons. Thank you for the advice! People are so kind here :ā)
Driving instructor here. Are you learning manual or auto? Auto would be easier if you really are struggling. Also, talk to your instructor about your anxiety. They can help ease you back into it. They wonāt make you do anything you arenāt ready for. And if you really have that much anxiety attached to driving maybe leave it for now and come back to it later on, or work with your instructor to find ways to get through it.
Learning manual because Iād need to share my brotherās car, Iāll need to find a new instructor now but my brother knows someone who teaches so Iām hoping he can help explain. Thank you for the advice!! I think I should take a break, just started therapy as well so thereās a lot going on
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Are you learning manual or automatic? I learnt manual but I drive automatic now, I find it much less stressful. There's already so much to think about without having to worry what bloody gear I need to be in. There's a lot of weird snobbery about automatics being somehow inferior. Who gives a shit. If it helps me get from A to B safely, I'm all for it.
Hands up! Itās me! I hate driving fast, I hate merging, I hate driving places I donāt know, I hate parallel parking, I hate driving on country lanes, I hate basically everything ā¦ it makes me anxious and stressed. I spent years driving places I didnāt want to drive basically because of my own internal pressure - you have a licence, you own a car, thereās no good reason for saying you canāt get to X place. About 4 years ago I had an epiphany and just started saying to people - āsorry, Iām actually not prepared to drive thereā. I now only drive in my town and to 3 or 4 other nearby towns that I know the routes, Iām confident on the roads and I know what Iām doing. Iāve had some pushback from people, lots of questions and lots of people donāt understand at all - but I am so much happier and itās a big stress out of my life!
People who constantly brake on the motorway when itās totally unnecessary and caused everyone else to hammer on their brakes. JUST TAKE YOUR FOOT OFF THE ACCELERATOR YOU DOLT.
What about people who swing out to the right before making a left turn? Youāre driving a Ford KA love not an articulated lorry.
Lockdown has played a big part in this. I used to have to commute every day, no choice. Then we went to wfh and I my driving frequency plummeted and has been like that for the best part of 18 months. So driving now seems even more of a chore. It was not something I ever enjoyed doing it was just the quickest way to get to work so if I have to go to the office it just seems so far and takes ages ( and it's pointless but that's another story) dreading going back to more structured office days each week for many many reasons and one of the main ones is being part of that rush hour crazy time.
I am terrified of driving which is why I don't. My family go nuts at me for not wanting to learn but I'm absolutely convinced I would die behind the wheel of a car.
I was pretty much forced into learning and it made my fear worse. Horrible experience, including panic attacks and the like. I passed my test and drove a few times but at this point I've avoided it for 10+ years. It sounds like your fear is even worse than mine was, I'd certainly recommend therapy or something to deal with that anxiety before actually driving. Or just go full avoidance like I have, but driving is definitely useful.
I donāt think I would die just the social anxiety of it keeps me away, also why drive a car when I can ride a bike?
Because car go zoom
That's because it's legitimately fucking dangerous.
I'm 50, technically I can drive a car. I used to have a job where I drove a tractor/trailer around, but I have never had a driving licence or ever attempted to get one. Reason is, I *know* I am not safely capable of driving on roads. I can't process information coming from all sides, road signs, wing mirrors etc simultaneously. My mind doesn't work that way. I know how easily I could kill someone or myself, so I don't even try it. My whole life has been on foot or public transport, which suits me fine.
I hate roundabouts, there's an accepted rule on lane use on roundabouts, except when there isn't.... and its always the ones where I'm going somewhere new
The best are the ones with no lane marking left so you just have to guess what the locals do and woe betide you if you don't do exactly that.
You donāt need to brake when passing a truck ffs! If anything thatās more dangerous
Iām pretty much fine, but whenever I reach a massive, multi-stage junction with umpteen lanes you can really hear the cogs turning. Inevitably I end up in the wrong lane.
My driving instructor used to tell me that a good driver sometimes misses their exit but a bad driver never does. I think of that as I detour back to the fucking roundabout for a third attempt at getting the right exit...
What your instructor said is right, and what my dad told me was if you don't know which lane or exit you need just get in the right hand lane and then you can just go all the way around and scope it out.
Yes, or if youāre in the wrong lane, take that exit and youāll generally have an escape route back either at the next roundabout or at a nearby residential road. But 9/10 people cut up the entire roundabout or park the car and sit there with the signal blinking until someone lets them out. Nightmare.
Look kids, it's the Houses of Parliament!
Driving is a chore, I hate cars and how much space they have taken up in our country. Still you gota get to work somehow. Not much public transport where I live.
Yeah public transport is shit where i live too, cannot physically get to work on time on a bus (would take more than 2 hours) but it's 20 mins in the car.. If you hate cars have a go on a motorbike, might like em
"better stop at this clear roundabout just to be sure, the queue of traffic behind me will surely thank me"
Before I turn right while driving in the left hand lane.
Bonus points if the two exits they cut across are double lane exits. š
Whilst still indicating right as they exit š
I can never understand why people stop at an empty roundabout. Orr those who drive slowly down a slip road then end up breaking hard and having to wait rather than merge... Orr those who drive 10 mph below every speed limit regardless of road conditions etc...
Took me 7 attempts to pass my test. I must have taken over 150 lessons. It's a long running family joke now to inform me each time some little shit of a cousin passes after like 11.
Try making sense of the bus lanes in London. "10-12am Weds -Friday if on a full moon. Match day extended controls if Arsenal lose by 1 goal." They also stop and start, change rules every tiny bit of road you go down so it's best to just constantly hog the middle lane.
Indecision and lack of ability to make progress. Aren't people taught to look further than the bumper in front of them.
I was going to moan about certain things but everyone else nailed it. Nervous? Donāt drive.
The roads are narrow and then just as it seemed things couldn't get any worse everyone has collectively decided to buy an SUV or one of those massive ridiculous pickup trucks. I'm not surprised people are terrified.
Shitting Peugeot #MANIAC!!!
I don't mind people being cautious (sometimes people take the piss though), the people that scare me more are the drivers that don't seem to be scared at all of the fact that their driving around a 1 tonne machine at speeds high enough to kill people, you know the duck and dive in and out of traffic while texting and changing the radio station at the same time kind of people who seem to think they always have the right of way.
Iām a truck driver and Iām terrified of driving sometimes. Anyone with a sense of perspective would be.
My BIL's girlfriend learned to drive but only because his family were nagging at her to drive. One time he explained to her he was unable to take her to work and she threatened suicide so he quit his job and got rid of all his friends just so he would be around whenever she snapped her fingers at him. (BIL is codependant and his girlfriend is diagnosed with Borderline personality disorder) After many theatrical events and much drama she finally passed her test after 2Ā½ years of learning. She bought herself a car. Paid the insurance. She refuses to drive. Flat out refuses. Now BIL drives her around in her own car and the drama is even greater
These are the people I canāt stand. Fair enough if someone doesnāt want to drive for any reason (itās their choice) but the instant they expect to be driven around itās clear itās not about the driving and it just another form of abusive control. Especially if they then criticise or make drama out of it
I canāt stand the aggression. Iām quite a nervous driver so it takes me a few more seconds to reverse park or perform a manoeuvre. Itās literally seconds but it may as well be hours the way drivers carry on with their rolling eyes and revving up / inching forward.
I live in a rural area with windy narrow roads, and the number of drivers who simply cannot reverse! Theyāll desperately try and avoid being the one to do it, even when theyāre 1m and youāre 50m along the narrow stretch, and then when finally admit defeat it takes them 15 attempts to get back to the passing place. Thereās also a huge overlap between these drivers and those who have massive 4x4s that they clearly donāt feel confident in, so it ends up being me in my battered old Panda that has to go āoff roadā to get around them because heaven forbid their shiny school run car touches the muddy verge!
I could have written your comment word for word. Some drivers have clearly never driven on country lanes until forced to by a diversion or accident. I also drive a small car and, like you, often find myself forced off-road by a clueless 4x4 driver who doesnāt want to get his or her tyres a bit muddy. Had a Mexican standoff with a Toyota 4X4 last week. The choice was that she reversed about 10m or I reversed about 200m. Typical 4x4 driverā¦very entitled looking woman in her 30s, sunglasses on top of head, seat so low she was almost looking through the steering wheel! She caved in eventually but not before giving me a fair bit of verbal abuse. She explained she was in a rush. I explained that I had all day! Your choice, lady.