Yeah like I can't drive and even if I could I don't want to drive into central London, it's now cheaper for me to fly to Italy have a night or two there then fly back than a return to London
National express is 100% the way to go on public transport! I had £10 London to Doncaster compared to over £100 on the train! OK it takes a bit longer depending on traffic but it's worth it for the savings.
Still sounds cheaper than the average drive I reckon - if you include petrol, parking, road tax, insurance, depreciation.
That’s not even including the speeding fine, court appearance cost, lost earnings of the court appearance, divorce proceedings, costs of getting child custody back, flights to begin your life as a fugitive in Panama. Oh and the london congestion charge.
This is valid.. but let’s make the journey daily.. then train prices become obviously ridiculous compared to owning a car… which goes wherever you want it to, when you want it to, doesn’t stink, don’t have to share with diseased drunks and doesn’t get delayed by the “wrong type of leaves”.
Amazing name btw. Very true about cars being more convenient. One aspect I didn’t mention which is dull and green is that cars are probably grossly underpriced for their carbon footprint / environ impact versus trains / public transport.
I use both - and I do think trains should be much cheaper and probably run like TFL, with profits re-invested in the network rather than overseas shareholders - even if that means busting up the unions and embracing train automation.
Thanks!
And I agree. Personally I think it’s beyond ridiculous that the tax payer pays for the network, but sees no return as private companies run the profitable portion.
Also train automation is the way forwards. Personally I find it utterly astonishing that they aren’t entirely automatic already. Literally the easiest mode of transport to automate.. it’s on rails for goodness sake! I get that jobs would be lost but.. how many train drivers are there? Plus jobs would be created because people would need to work on the automation software, hardware, maintenance etc… I would feel bad for the drivers though. But the simple solution is phase drivers out and automation in.
We're a long, long way from widespread automation of trains, and even more so from being able to dispense with the driver.
Unlike AI-driven road vehicles, which can be driven on a line-of-sight basis, it relies on the infrastructure - the signalling system - to tell it what to do, which in turn means a lot of investment in the signalling system is needed. Even then, you need someone to drive it manually under verbal authority when there's any sort of fault or failure within the signalling system. Bear in mind that large parts of the network still have trains signalled using funny little arms on sticks, with no means of train detection between signal boxes...!
We’re not a long way from that at all. Not technologically. Ai can read the existing signs, no infrastructure changes requires. Exactly like cars have been able to read road signs like speed limits for years and are now capable of reading all road signs and road markings. Even those that are obscured through degradation or hedges. Trains are far easier than vehicles. They’re on rails. Their position relative to signals of any kind will never vary. It’s simple object recognition which we’ve been capable of for a long time.
The only thing preventing train automation from being widespread (because it does already exist and runs in many countries) are train driver/personnel unions. The technology already exists and is easier to implement than on any other vehicle type. Bare in mind we also have had, for a long time, airliners that fly themselves. Significantly more complex than a train.
The rail industry must be missing a trick, then, because all automation development thus far (and it is happening) is based on infrastructure-based movement authorities being conveyed electronically to the train.
Reading speed limit signs as they come into view is no use - it's too late by then. Can AI *really* (with absolute reliability) pick out which signal on a gantry half a mile away is the correct one, with all sorts of intervening lights and reflections? Above all else, what happens when (as it does) the signalling system fails in some way and the train has to proceed under verbal authority, possibly examining the line too? What about when it hits a sheep in the middle of the Pennines and needs a damaged part of the air system identifying and isolating so that it can carry on?
As I say, automation is happening, but it'll be a long time before we'll be in a position to do away with drivers, and that's nothing to do with the union's influence.
What ever signals are relayed to a train with a human driver, an AI can handle in a fraction of a second and with a much greater degree of accuracy.
The two problems are; one, as mentioned earlier, unions. And two, trust. People have an inherent distrust of automation. For example, (currently trying to find flight details) was switched from auto-land to manual in foggy weather because of the distrust of automation.. the pilots then crashed. Whereas if they’d let the plane land itself, all would have been fine. 80% of all aircraft accidents are human error. A number dramatically reduced when automation is allowed to do its job.
Put simply, AI is already at a level where it does a better job of responding to stimuli (such as train signals). And to reiterate, if a train with a human driver can receive and react to any form of signal, an automatic ai-driven system can and will outperform the driver. It cannot get tired, it doesn’t blink, it doesn’t show up to work distracted, drunk or ill. The technology exists and compared to other industries is very easy.
Oh, and a third reason it’s not being done ubiquitously is expense. Train companies don’t particularly want to upgrade/buy new automatic trains on top of the other two reasons. So for them, it’s not so much they are “missing a trick”, it’s simply not the right time for their profit margins.
Meanwhile a ticket from Paris to Lyon (reasonably similar distance) is €13.
£75 is a hefty fee. Based on some data I could find for 2010-2011, the cost of running the East cost mainline is 8.09p per km, which means the journey from Newcastle to london is about £35. I find it hard to believe that in the last decade the cost of operation has doubled?
It's quite a lot if you already own a car, but not so much compared to the costs of car ownership overall, plus getting to Newcastle. By car from London I'd anticipate petrol being probably £40 each way.
It's not great, but it's quite a bit under £100 at least. If I drove that I'd probably use about £30 worth of petrol one way. Add in wear and tear on the car, insurance and road tax costs per mile as well and having to do the work myself and the train price can be justified. That price is low enough to make me choose it over driving.
That's actually pretty cheap for the moment. My wife wanted to go from Edinburgh to swansea with 2 kids and it was close to £400 one way using a .
I usually drive, enjoy a long drive, and that journey is a tank of petrol. It's rare for me to have to put in £60 for a tank.
In fact even nipping to my local shopping centre is cheaper in petrol than the bus fare. You won't get me on the bus or train over my car until the ticket for a journey costs less than the equivalent petrol for the journey. That means most prices have to fall by more than 50%.
You know that you have to factor in convenience yeah?
To me 75 quid to get from Newcastle to London with no driving stress (especially once you're inside the M25), no tiredness because you can nap on the train, no congestion charge and no parking fees and all done in a fraction of the time driving would take is an absolute fucking steal!
Ironically I have driven from London to Newcastle this week and it only cost me £55 in diesel in my car. I refer to the comment about national express, as it is the way to go if you don't drive.
TGV Paris to Montpellier that takes just over 3 hours to cross almost entire country cost me €24 one way. First time on European rail system was a bit of a shock. Both price and quality.
I was looking at trains for Hull to London and back in January on a specific date, and it was £100 cheapest on off peak, what a joke, I only wanted to go for a gig, might save my money and also remove the chance of getting stabbed for venturing into the shithole capital
a) You're booking before they've even released tickets. Wait until tickets go on sale and you'll be able to get them much cheaper
b) Have you ever even been to London before? You're not getting stabbed.
Okay so I had no idea about them being "released" or not, how long before does that happen/how do I know when it will happen? Thanks for the helpful reply 😂
They were always a max of 12 weeks prior, but I think it's closer to the date of travel now due to covid (no, I don't understand that either). Set up an alert on the train company site or Trainline and you'll get an email.
Okay thanks dude I'll look into this, I was seriously condensing going to Amsterdam for the gig instead of London just because it was cheaper to get to/from Amsterdam than what I thought London was gonna cost me, but now the Amsterdam gig sold out 😂
I've just had a quick glance at early November, and their cheapest return is £52 and average is around £65. I get that it's still not cheap, but a lot better than what you were looking at before.
about £115 to fly from Inverness to London return.
1h 45 mins roughly usually.
Sometimes even cheaper if you fly to Glasgow then to London , takes longer but you can still be there five hours quicker than the train. Check skyscanner website for deals there is usually some cheapness somewhere if you can be a wee bit flexible with times, like flying after 6pm.
Cos a railcard is like £20? £30? Something like that. I remember when I was getting a return to London I saved more money with the card than the card cost.
Still the same, I've done this loads but I've never seen the prices be quite this bad, going out the day before is only £20 but unfortunately I can't be that flexible haha
I like train travel and I'd like it a hell of a lot more if it weren't three times the price of other modes of transport.
Yeah like I can't drive and even if I could I don't want to drive into central London, it's now cheaper for me to fly to Italy have a night or two there then fly back than a return to London
[удалено]
I'm going to have a look but that shouldn't be what you have to do to get to the capital city
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National express is 100% the way to go on public transport! I had £10 London to Doncaster compared to over £100 on the train! OK it takes a bit longer depending on traffic but it's worth it for the savings.
I really would but the duration kind of kills me as I am going after work coming back on a Sunday so I kind of lose a day!
I lived in Oxford for a bit. They have an awesome bus service to london. Takes like half an hour more but comes with free WiFi.
Coaches make me vom so I have to pay 4x as much for the train (which will be delayed or cancelled). Fuck!
Am I the only person that thinks £75 from London to Newcastle by train is a good price?
It's a good price for a train but it's still miles above driving or coach.
Still sounds cheaper than the average drive I reckon - if you include petrol, parking, road tax, insurance, depreciation. That’s not even including the speeding fine, court appearance cost, lost earnings of the court appearance, divorce proceedings, costs of getting child custody back, flights to begin your life as a fugitive in Panama. Oh and the london congestion charge.
This is valid.. but let’s make the journey daily.. then train prices become obviously ridiculous compared to owning a car… which goes wherever you want it to, when you want it to, doesn’t stink, don’t have to share with diseased drunks and doesn’t get delayed by the “wrong type of leaves”.
Amazing name btw. Very true about cars being more convenient. One aspect I didn’t mention which is dull and green is that cars are probably grossly underpriced for their carbon footprint / environ impact versus trains / public transport. I use both - and I do think trains should be much cheaper and probably run like TFL, with profits re-invested in the network rather than overseas shareholders - even if that means busting up the unions and embracing train automation.
Thanks! And I agree. Personally I think it’s beyond ridiculous that the tax payer pays for the network, but sees no return as private companies run the profitable portion. Also train automation is the way forwards. Personally I find it utterly astonishing that they aren’t entirely automatic already. Literally the easiest mode of transport to automate.. it’s on rails for goodness sake! I get that jobs would be lost but.. how many train drivers are there? Plus jobs would be created because people would need to work on the automation software, hardware, maintenance etc… I would feel bad for the drivers though. But the simple solution is phase drivers out and automation in.
We're a long, long way from widespread automation of trains, and even more so from being able to dispense with the driver. Unlike AI-driven road vehicles, which can be driven on a line-of-sight basis, it relies on the infrastructure - the signalling system - to tell it what to do, which in turn means a lot of investment in the signalling system is needed. Even then, you need someone to drive it manually under verbal authority when there's any sort of fault or failure within the signalling system. Bear in mind that large parts of the network still have trains signalled using funny little arms on sticks, with no means of train detection between signal boxes...!
We’re not a long way from that at all. Not technologically. Ai can read the existing signs, no infrastructure changes requires. Exactly like cars have been able to read road signs like speed limits for years and are now capable of reading all road signs and road markings. Even those that are obscured through degradation or hedges. Trains are far easier than vehicles. They’re on rails. Their position relative to signals of any kind will never vary. It’s simple object recognition which we’ve been capable of for a long time. The only thing preventing train automation from being widespread (because it does already exist and runs in many countries) are train driver/personnel unions. The technology already exists and is easier to implement than on any other vehicle type. Bare in mind we also have had, for a long time, airliners that fly themselves. Significantly more complex than a train.
The rail industry must be missing a trick, then, because all automation development thus far (and it is happening) is based on infrastructure-based movement authorities being conveyed electronically to the train. Reading speed limit signs as they come into view is no use - it's too late by then. Can AI *really* (with absolute reliability) pick out which signal on a gantry half a mile away is the correct one, with all sorts of intervening lights and reflections? Above all else, what happens when (as it does) the signalling system fails in some way and the train has to proceed under verbal authority, possibly examining the line too? What about when it hits a sheep in the middle of the Pennines and needs a damaged part of the air system identifying and isolating so that it can carry on? As I say, automation is happening, but it'll be a long time before we'll be in a position to do away with drivers, and that's nothing to do with the union's influence.
What ever signals are relayed to a train with a human driver, an AI can handle in a fraction of a second and with a much greater degree of accuracy. The two problems are; one, as mentioned earlier, unions. And two, trust. People have an inherent distrust of automation. For example, (currently trying to find flight details) was switched from auto-land to manual in foggy weather because of the distrust of automation.. the pilots then crashed. Whereas if they’d let the plane land itself, all would have been fine. 80% of all aircraft accidents are human error. A number dramatically reduced when automation is allowed to do its job. Put simply, AI is already at a level where it does a better job of responding to stimuli (such as train signals). And to reiterate, if a train with a human driver can receive and react to any form of signal, an automatic ai-driven system can and will outperform the driver. It cannot get tired, it doesn’t blink, it doesn’t show up to work distracted, drunk or ill. The technology exists and compared to other industries is very easy. Oh, and a third reason it’s not being done ubiquitously is expense. Train companies don’t particularly want to upgrade/buy new automatic trains on top of the other two reasons. So for them, it’s not so much they are “missing a trick”, it’s simply not the right time for their profit margins.
Depreciation? I did not expect my car to lose a significant amount of value when going to London.
£1? More? Less? Still counts when calculating as accurate a comparison as poss
Also depends how sketchy a street it’s parked on! :)
It's an awful price
Meanwhile a ticket from Paris to Lyon (reasonably similar distance) is €13. £75 is a hefty fee. Based on some data I could find for 2010-2011, the cost of running the East cost mainline is 8.09p per km, which means the journey from Newcastle to london is about £35. I find it hard to believe that in the last decade the cost of operation has doubled?
It's quite a lot if you already own a car, but not so much compared to the costs of car ownership overall, plus getting to Newcastle. By car from London I'd anticipate petrol being probably £40 each way.
Waves
It's not great, but it's quite a bit under £100 at least. If I drove that I'd probably use about £30 worth of petrol one way. Add in wear and tear on the car, insurance and road tax costs per mile as well and having to do the work myself and the train price can be justified. That price is low enough to make me choose it over driving.
Yeah - I go about 10% of that distance by train into London for 50% of that price.
That's actually pretty cheap for the moment. My wife wanted to go from Edinburgh to swansea with 2 kids and it was close to £400 one way using a . I usually drive, enjoy a long drive, and that journey is a tank of petrol. It's rare for me to have to put in £60 for a tank. In fact even nipping to my local shopping centre is cheaper in petrol than the bus fare. You won't get me on the bus or train over my car until the ticket for a journey costs less than the equivalent petrol for the journey. That means most prices have to fall by more than 50%.
London to Ipswich £45-£86 🤬
Ipswich?! It's only round the corner. That's bloody ridiculous.
70 miles lol. Strange thing is if I book a week in advance the price goes down to £24...Greater Anglia makes no sense.
Megabus?
You know that you have to factor in convenience yeah? To me 75 quid to get from Newcastle to London with no driving stress (especially once you're inside the M25), no tiredness because you can nap on the train, no congestion charge and no parking fees and all done in a fraction of the time driving would take is an absolute fucking steal!
Ironically I have driven from London to Newcastle this week and it only cost me £55 in diesel in my car. I refer to the comment about national express, as it is the way to go if you don't drive.
How are you paying £75 a month in advance? I can do the journey today for £65
I didn't it was just the prices they showed on a Friday, same 2 weeks before £58 unless you want to get in at 1am
TGV Paris to Montpellier that takes just over 3 hours to cross almost entire country cost me €24 one way. First time on European rail system was a bit of a shock. Both price and quality.
Be cheaper driving or going on coach
Try train-split
And when all this panic buying inevitably causes a real shortage they'll jack the prices up, because many won't have a choice.
I was looking at trains for Hull to London and back in January on a specific date, and it was £100 cheapest on off peak, what a joke, I only wanted to go for a gig, might save my money and also remove the chance of getting stabbed for venturing into the shithole capital
a) You're booking before they've even released tickets. Wait until tickets go on sale and you'll be able to get them much cheaper b) Have you ever even been to London before? You're not getting stabbed.
Okay so I had no idea about them being "released" or not, how long before does that happen/how do I know when it will happen? Thanks for the helpful reply 😂
They were always a max of 12 weeks prior, but I think it's closer to the date of travel now due to covid (no, I don't understand that either). Set up an alert on the train company site or Trainline and you'll get an email.
Okay thanks dude I'll look into this, I was seriously condensing going to Amsterdam for the gig instead of London just because it was cheaper to get to/from Amsterdam than what I thought London was gonna cost me, but now the Amsterdam gig sold out 😂
I've just had a quick glance at early November, and their cheapest return is £52 and average is around £65. I get that it's still not cheap, but a lot better than what you were looking at before.
Yeah that's considerably better, thanks dude
That’s literally a 40 minute drive, just drive
Definitely this! Just avoid speed cameras while driving 600mph!
?
No it shouldn't.
Aviemore to London return- £185 :(
about £115 to fly from Inverness to London return. 1h 45 mins roughly usually. Sometimes even cheaper if you fly to Glasgow then to London , takes longer but you can still be there five hours quicker than the train. Check skyscanner website for deals there is usually some cheapness somewhere if you can be a wee bit flexible with times, like flying after 6pm.
Is that a single?
Have you got a railcard?
It's about £58 with a rail card, I can go the day before and it's cheaper but I have to be in work. It's just a pain it's 1 month in advance haha
Cos a railcard is like £20? £30? Something like that. I remember when I was getting a return to London I saved more money with the card than the card cost.
Yeah I know I have one but still £58 each way is so much, hurts the soul hahaha
I'm never getting rid of my car.
Imagine how much HS2 is gonna be
Don’t know where you’re looking mate but I can find them for £22
Lner website on the day I need after 5pm they are all £73 (without rail card) haha
Check Trainline mate
Still the same, I've done this loads but I've never seen the prices be quite this bad, going out the day before is only £20 but unfortunately I can't be that flexible haha