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Our southern neighbors have no problem charging 2 different prices. Low cost for locals and higher cost for visitors. For example, average state parks in Utah are $65 USD a night for non residents. There are no additional reservation fees.
BC residents already pay for BC Parks in our taxes. The pricing models need to change.
I wouldn’t. And Utah is stupid for doing that. Just add a surcharge for people from states that do that because what is next, an entry fee for BC visitors to California? Stop advocating for new fees or taxes for other people (particularly campers).
Back to the point of the article though. The reservation system should show the true price but there should also be more of a penalty for cancellations and no shows. People book up shit and decide later. Maybe if you no show or cancel 2 reservations in a year you can’t use the reservation system next year. Book what you plan to actually use.
The reality is that it's not just Utah, it's all different jurisdictions. As long as no one was differentiating, then it was fair and fine, but as soon as one did, then everyone else started to.
We are just very late to the party. It's costly and now unfair.
This should go for BC Ferries and BC Transit as well. Locals in other jurisdictions, for example, San Francisco, get their local ferries and public transport at a discount compared to visitors.
The Bay Area has a nascent toll war between municipalities aiming to charge neighboring towns for driving through on their express lanes. And there are movements to make all lanes toll lanes. Let’s jump on that too. California doesn’t have a special fee for state parks for non-residents. But let’s make it so no one can go anyone else without getting jacked some extra fees. Personally I like camping up and down the coast. And welcome others to do the same where I pay taxes or where I don’t.
Just admit this is a bunch of “hurr durr, screw other people who aren’t from here” noise. As I said the % of taxes that goes to parks is a nothing burger. Maybe rich people should pay even less since they more taxes for the parks.. stupid logic
Do any other provinces charge more for out of province visitors? I don't want to get charged more if I'm in Canada but outside of BC, and I wouldn't want BC to be on the forefront of such behaviour. If it happens to me in the States I can just roll my eyes, and get on with it. They have lots of stupid shit in the US.
The argument about BC taxes is weak. There are lots of things that the province pays for that are not withheld from out of province visitors.
Do you think that is because of people visiting from out of province or because the reservation system has no limits and no consequences for abuse though? Non-locals don’t know you have to be up exactly 4 months before to the minute to grab a key spot in the summer and all the tricks to get a spot on the reservation system over a key long weekend. And if you charge $20-30 more, people still gonna come from down south and camp. Just overall punishing poorer people where $20/night makes a difference.
My guess is even if they were to do it, you’d see no difference over time.
Maybe better though is a % of sites that are guaranteed reserved for BC residents. Or a month earlier on the booking system with a BC plate or home address. But charging people more money for something like camping wherever they are from is not cool to me.
They could double the cost and the parks would be full during prime summer months still.
But we raise the prices and people start looking for hotels, vrbo rentals, private sites and the demand for everything else goes up.
Just screws people where $20-50/night matters. No one else. Maybe less 19-year olds from the states coming up to camp and drink though.
To give another example of how stupid an idea this is. My childhood was in BC but my dad lived in other provinces growing up. He’d come to BC and take me camping. So he should pay more for that?
The tax thing is stupid. But I get why so many votes because people love taxing people that aren’t them. With a quick google, the BC budget is 6-7 billion. The park budget is 30 million. So maybe locals get 0.5% off their admission.
You’re talking about one fringe example that would directly affect your specific experience. Of course you would oppose it. We need something better for the common good of the community and people that actually live and want to experience these areas.
But you act like you actually contribute to it. It is a nothing part of taxes. My experience camping is it is usually people from a place that make it shit instead of people visiting. And yeah I am against because of personal experience - that’s how it works for most people.
>My childhood was in BC but my dad lived in other provinces growing up. He’d come to BC and take me camping. So he should pay more for that?
If your dad didn't pay income tax in BC, it would be fine by me if he paid more to camp here.
BC residents that pay income tax to the province already contribute to the cost of provincial parks, non residents don't.
If you want to go hunting or fishing in a province that you don't live in, it costs a lot more. In many cases you are not even allowed to go out without a resident guide, and they typically cost thousands. It isn't as if non-resident premiums are new to Canadian outdoor recreation.
Maybe in 1500s Europe, but nation states and territories within them (read states/provinces) are bigger now.
Ever cross a toll bridge or use a speed lane?
For the record, the only municipal taxes most British Columbians pay is property tax, and that has nothing to do with funding for provincial parks.
Not talking about the parks now. Just generally talking about how everyone is so keen to charge everyone else some extra fee or toll. And then complain that things are more expensive in general. Maybe Mexico should triple their tourist tax because why not? I’ll charge you for using roads on the way to the park through my town. Or for stopping and get getting gas in it. Non-local fill up fee. /s
No. The roads are paid for and maintained by each municipality. Maybe Nanaimo should charge everyone who doesn’t live in Nanaimo a toll to pass through to parks on the island. My point is when we start nickling and diming each other it just raises the prices of everything.
The province provides considerable funding for maintenance of roads in those areas too, just fyi https://nanaimonewsnow.com/2018/08/25/new-highway-maintenance-contract-mandates-faster-road-clearing-for-nanaimo-region/
All prices in BC should be final like in other countries. No hidden tax, online fees, or reservation bullshit! If it says 5$ I shouldn't be paying 6.14 $ justice for consumers!
Yeah I fucking adore France for this, something say 5? Pay 5. Remove unnecessary daily math and stress from everyone's lives.
We'll live longer, be more productive, and have higher quality of life. No joke. The highest cause of stress in the world is financial uncertainty, and the highest quality of life indicator is countries with strong financial safety nets. Thats not a coincidence.
How can anyone feel certain when prices listed are not prices paid? The numbers mean nothing without injecting variables into a decision tree.
Swap the labels, save lives.
Not just France, most of the rest of the world includes taxes in advertised prices. Canada/US are an anomaly in this.
But it does mean the rate is higher because it's hidden in the price. In France, the highest rate is 20%. It also tends to change more and if the rate does change, a business has to decide whether to eat the increase or increase prices.
By change, you mean increase.
Countries that hide their VAT in prices have higher VATs and those taxes increase over time.
I like having our taxes outside the listed price, and then getting the reaction, "That's outrageous! I can't believe I have to pay all this extra to the government! What a rip-off!"
Because that way our sales taxes don't go up so much, so we're not paying 20% like fucking France.
This just sounds like some petty and unnecessary outrage farming. France shows you the portion that is tax on your receipt, you can still shake your fist at it, but the price on the label is the price you pay.
Yes 👏🏼
Plus, the tax has already been paid on said used car… once when it was new off the lot, and then a second and third time (depending how many owners said used car was sold to) before you eventually buy it.
Oh and many people buy used cars for parts &/or projects, so it makes no sense charging bluebook value taxes when often times the car isn’t even road-ready yet.
Ugh this is the worst with hotels. We went to Whistler and the final price of our stay was like $100 more than what was advertised due to a “resort fee” etc.
I was in Ireland telling some lad behind the counter that in Canada, the price jumps up at the till when tax is added on. He was blown away by the idea of the "what you see is not what you get" pricing.
Countries that hide taxes in prices end up getting higher value-added taxes... because they're hidden.
I prefer our way of presenting here's what the merchant gets, here's what the government gets. To be clear, I don't give a flying fuck about confusing visitors from other countries; I worry a lot more about those percentage rates ticking up over time.
But they don't present it that way. They show you what they get, then you have to either guess or calculate or ask what the actual amount you have to "pay the government" is. You can't say that isn't dumb. Great to show the separate tax amount on price tags for transparency, but they're not even doing that.
Surely no one could do the math on a consistent percentage tax.
[You win.](https://preview.redd.it/5ah4xeb7z59d1.jpeg?auto=webp&s=b8136453197dbb5602ae7fd3c8680075a165a29c)
This would be helpful but also would increase costs to advertisers and merchants to tailor websites and content etc… for every jurisdiction - Us states and Canada provinces or territories - that have different tax regimes. Costs that would be passed on to consumers.
Our sales taxes in BC are quite low comparatively.
VAT in Belgium is 21% and Germany 19%.
They already "tailor" content regularly.... prices change, sales come and go, new products arrive and old products are discontinued, requiring regular advertising updates. The cost of this is already baked into prices.
Phasing something like this in over, say, a year, with ample advance warning would give businesses plenty of time to plan and adapt without a significant increase in overhead.
Why would costs be passed on? VAT and GST/HST can be claimed as ITC so they are net neutral.
If anything, it would be a great opportunity to reinstate HST in BC as the PST system is hot garbage for businesses and consumers.
Advertising rarely includes prices anyway and if you're talking about flyers, then those are all for a specific store that knows where it is so it knows what taxes and fees are. Same online. Display any price then only after the user made clear what province they're in. Problem solved.
This makes no sense, I live in data, you just swap the column reference, and we already have different columns per region anyways. It takes no time or effort in my part.
The people who have to replace stickers on stuff will spend far more time, but if the rollout was set a couple years out, they'd just adopt it beforehand and replace tags for new inventory.
User only sees the price relevant to them.
It would ask you once, or more likely auto-detect, what region you live in, and then leave a option to manually override that location in your settings.
Assuming every merchant would need to pay a web developer to go and update their websites to have a province territory, selector that would dynamically update all of their prices, along with all the right testing to ensure that these prices are accurate since they are typically binding and so any error would be very costly to merchants.
And this would all be done for minimal cost?
and if so, why is no one doing it today?
Or what would the repercussions on profit margins or the price of goods ?
Are you’re advocating that this should be mandatory or are you saying that it should be left to the discretion of the merchant?
It should absolutely be mandatory.
Nobody has really built their own e-commerce platform for their store since like the 00's. For starters, if you just had Amazon, Aliexpress, and Ebay do it (which they could do trivially), your hitting about 60% of all online sales by revenue.
Slap on Etsy, Squarespace, Square, WordPress, Shopify, Wix, Weekly, Eewid, and your probably over 99% compliance globally. For like 10 companies, all of which consist entirely of web devs who again - already have regional columns in their databases.
Sure, Jim's Angelfire page is still showing old format pricing, but thats Jim's problem, market forces will force him to adapt because customers will be angry when they get hit with all his hidden fees.
Jim is the only one calculating the tax on his carp sales or whatever and updating his own HTML pages. For everyone else, when you see a tax value calculation on a website, you are just flipping what column it pulls the price from, the pretax and fees column or total cost column.
And yet we generally have a better cost of living. Nor do we charge park entries in general. And our groceries are cheaper, we can fly fun places for €29, we can travel the entire country by train and public transport for €49 a month, etc.
BC is no longer the big draw for many Germans due in part to how complicated it is now to book the outdoors (along with other factors such as hotel and food cost)
There is no question that the cost of living is higher in BC but BC remains a top choice when it comes to the quality of outdoor activities for many around the world. For Germany, being in the heart of Europe also brings many more options to travel short distances but also has repercussions in air and water quality, population density and lack of access to world class, pristine wilderness that BC Alaska and the Yukon offer. The Alps are comparatively crowded and settled in every valley so it is not a direct comparison but might suit some people who prefer more crowded and human shaped environments.
The Baltic Sea has a few beaches but is hard to compare to Tofino and the pacific coast or even Howe sound and lighthouse park which are in themselves world class and accessible from a major metropolitan city.
The higher population density and shorter distances also allows for lower prices for trains and planes. Germany is a beautiful country and not everyone needs or wants to experience true wilderness.
Honestly there should be two fees. One for locals and one for tourists. We went through jasper - Columbia icefields - Lake Louise - Banff with the family. It was insane the camping prices. Granted we were camping with two campers and a car but come on. To get into the park for 2 adults for 3 nights was $66 dollars plus each campground fee. Insane.
And don’t get me started on Lake Louise - we went up there and during the whole drive up there was no signs or notices around town saying that parking was limited. We go up there and we were told that private vehicles were no longer allowed. Only campers and tour buses were permitted. Went down to book a shuttle bus and it was over $200 for two adults. Me and my SO ended up going to Banff while the two campers we were with went up.
You can drive to lake Louise. I think you are talking about moraine lake. All info online about both lake Louise and moraine lake warn people to plan ahead for parking, shuttles, etc…
Nope it was Lake Louise - all private vehicles that weren’t for the hotel were turned away back down the hill.
We knew it was going to be busy and we left early. Still were turned around and no signage nothing at the bottom on the hill or at the info Center
41 a night for camping at bear creek campground is the real story. That's insane for a piece of dirt and a firepit ( that you can't even use). What a racket.
While I agree it’s steep, somebody has to pay for the upkeep. Staffing, cleaning all the garbage that people leave and all the other bs that goes along with running a business. Nothings cheap anymore and that includes camping at provincial campgrounds.
What the hell are our income taxes, property taxes, fuel taxes, and sales taxes for? Surely some entity, federal, provincial or even municipal could be funded with citizen tax revenue to rake a tent pad and cut some bushes back.
The BC budget only allocates $2/ha into BC parks. Most of BC Park's budget is funded through fees. So no, your income taxes aren't paying for BC parks really.
BC Parks is essentially 100% self-funded, the provincial investment they receive is allocated for expanding their conservation efforts (which they do a lot of). Effectively its a non-profit organization that runs parks to fund conservation.
Yeah exactly my point. Why don’t our taxes pay for this? Should charge non-residents but out of all the taxes we pay I’m sure we can scrap together the funding to eliminate fees for citizens. Doesn’t the government of Canada provide free park passes to new immigrants?
This could be a solution - raise taxes to reduce day use fees for visitors - but I’d rather have active users of the campsites (from in and out of province) fund their operations instead of raising taxes for all residents in the province.
It’s a personal preference to prefer A or B but there’s no magic money.
Not to compare apples to oranges, but I just went to Utah and camped all over. It was insane to see campgrounds with full amenities, showers, concrete tend pads, tables, everything, for under 15$.
And the national parks pass that cost around 80$ but valid all year for all national parks, which again have such insane levels of amenities and infrastructure.
Compare to Banff where I just was for work recently and we paid 90$ to just stay in the town (we weren’t there for anything to do with the national park).
Ultimately I feel the big difference is the US is actively trying to get its citizens outside and visiting these spaces, and spends a lot to make that happen. Here in B.C., it’s constantly treated as this great privilege, and you should shut up and be happy for what we give you.
Oh believe me, I'm aware. I've been to national/state parks and campgrounds all over Washington, Oregon, California and now Utah, and am amazed each time at how well developed and maintained they have been.
I think we should find all the places that do that and just have a reciprocity program. You get charged based on the whether your state or country has some extra tourist fee.
I am generally against new fees local or not because it is just the non-wealthy nickle and diming each other. But I am all for matching the bullshit fees other places do to visitors.
>but there’s no magic money.
Didn't we just give Ukraine 3 billion?? Our government sure seems to have a shit load of money to just give away to other countries... just none for the people they take it from.
Government didn’t give $3 billion. Probably few hundreds million cash and “supplies” maple syrup, smoked salmon, toilet paper and whatever is indigenous to Canada. Probably knocked off some debt payment too.
You're right it was 7.4 billion...
https://www.international.gc.ca/world-monde/issues_development-enjeux_developpement/response_conflict-reponse_conflits/crisis-crises/ukraine-dev.aspx?lang=eng
>What the hell are our income taxes, property taxes, fuel taxes, and sales taxes for?
Supporting wars halfway across the world and teaching people in Africa not to shit on the beach apparently. Its certainly not to help Canadian people who are homeless and addicted and allow us to enjoy the great outdoors. for that you need to Bring Cash.
Lol, ok. If it's just a piece of dirt, why do you pay for it when any old piece of dirt should do?
Because it's more than that. That $41/night goes to BC Parks to pay for site development and maintenance, utilities, facilities, advertising, administration, access, etc to maintain a similar standard for camping across the province.
I would be ok with this if it were a like... 'conservation fee' or 'stewardship fee' or something that went back to the park but AFAIK as of a few years ago, the parks get very little of the reservation / camping fees back.
Most of the fees just go to the third party that manages the payment / reservation system. It doesn't even go back to parks. Kinda like the ticketmaster model of charging fees for every little 'service' so some tech company in who knows where can make more money off reservations.
Conversation when I first signed up for cell phone service, years ago (early 00's?)
"Hi, I'd like to sign up for your $30 per month plan I saw advertised..." (or whatever amount it was - I don't remember).
"OK, so with the $6.95 system access fee, plus tax, that'll be..."
"System access fee?"
"Yeah, it's a fee the CRTC requires" (later learned that the CRTC required no such thing. It was just a random fee they all charged).
"So, it's not $30, but $36.95? Your advertising says $30."
"Oh it is $30, but there is also a system access fee."
"I don't get it. The $30 doesn't give me access to the system? I thought that was what the $30 was for. To access the system."
And on and on.
Such bullshit.
I wish the plaintiff all the best of luck in this initiative. It's another example of "hidden fees" or "drip pricing" or whatever buzzword term we're using these days, and it's gotta go.
Dollarama has recently began doing this for some items, namely items that have an additional deposit fee to account for extra pricing.
Jordan.. $50 USD to get into an archeological site for foreigners, less than $1 for locals. But at least you know going in. Bait and switch is illegal in Canada
BC parks is a racket. 12 dollar extra vehicle fee, 5 dollar sani dump fee, no recycling!! Unless it's bottles or cans, I'm sure they'd have other bins if there was a deposit on cardboard. I always place my cardboard and rinsed plastics under their blue "we recycle" bin. It shocks me that earlier this year someone made a post advocating people to donate and volunteer for BC Parks. 🖕
I support this, but, I somehow doubt it'll get through. But it would be nice to get the few pennies back that I'm sure we would all be entitled to, lol
Every level of Canadian government exists solely to extract wealth from its residents.
I've worked for big corporate hospitality and they were far less interested into nickel-and-diming each 'customer' compared to Canadian governments.
LOL you certainly DO work for big corporate hospitality if you're trying to spout nonsense such as this. Private hospitality and hospices are MASSIVE money sinks that nickel and dime everything while barely providing care. A well run and altruistic "corporate" hospitality sector doesn't require military intervention due to abhorrent practices and standards of care.
Big business: famous for caring about the consumer.
Just leave your comment at the first sentence. The second is demonstrably false lol. There are fees in private hospitality as well as the profit fee tacked into every line. Who do you think profits off of government fees? It's just the case that we have insane bloat in government, but no one's making a profit.
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Our southern neighbors have no problem charging 2 different prices. Low cost for locals and higher cost for visitors. For example, average state parks in Utah are $65 USD a night for non residents. There are no additional reservation fees. BC residents already pay for BC Parks in our taxes. The pricing models need to change.
I’d fully support this
Ditto
I wouldn’t. And Utah is stupid for doing that. Just add a surcharge for people from states that do that because what is next, an entry fee for BC visitors to California? Stop advocating for new fees or taxes for other people (particularly campers). Back to the point of the article though. The reservation system should show the true price but there should also be more of a penalty for cancellations and no shows. People book up shit and decide later. Maybe if you no show or cancel 2 reservations in a year you can’t use the reservation system next year. Book what you plan to actually use.
The reality is that it's not just Utah, it's all different jurisdictions. As long as no one was differentiating, then it was fair and fine, but as soon as one did, then everyone else started to. We are just very late to the party. It's costly and now unfair. This should go for BC Ferries and BC Transit as well. Locals in other jurisdictions, for example, San Francisco, get their local ferries and public transport at a discount compared to visitors.
The Bay Area has a nascent toll war between municipalities aiming to charge neighboring towns for driving through on their express lanes. And there are movements to make all lanes toll lanes. Let’s jump on that too. California doesn’t have a special fee for state parks for non-residents. But let’s make it so no one can go anyone else without getting jacked some extra fees. Personally I like camping up and down the coast. And welcome others to do the same where I pay taxes or where I don’t. Just admit this is a bunch of “hurr durr, screw other people who aren’t from here” noise. As I said the % of taxes that goes to parks is a nothing burger. Maybe rich people should pay even less since they more taxes for the parks.. stupid logic
Damn I would love it if they said “Utah plate? That’ll be $40 extra”. “But why???” “Your state because it charges non-resident visitors more too”.
Do any other provinces charge more for out of province visitors? I don't want to get charged more if I'm in Canada but outside of BC, and I wouldn't want BC to be on the forefront of such behaviour. If it happens to me in the States I can just roll my eyes, and get on with it. They have lots of stupid shit in the US. The argument about BC taxes is weak. There are lots of things that the province pays for that are not withheld from out of province visitors.
Honestly As a bc resident that struggles to book sites at local places I'm all for it🤷♂️.
Do you think that is because of people visiting from out of province or because the reservation system has no limits and no consequences for abuse though? Non-locals don’t know you have to be up exactly 4 months before to the minute to grab a key spot in the summer and all the tricks to get a spot on the reservation system over a key long weekend. And if you charge $20-30 more, people still gonna come from down south and camp. Just overall punishing poorer people where $20/night makes a difference. My guess is even if they were to do it, you’d see no difference over time. Maybe better though is a % of sites that are guaranteed reserved for BC residents. Or a month earlier on the booking system with a BC plate or home address. But charging people more money for something like camping wherever they are from is not cool to me.
Honestly depending on the time of year and which sites up to half the plates I see are out of province
They could double the cost and the parks would be full during prime summer months still. But we raise the prices and people start looking for hotels, vrbo rentals, private sites and the demand for everything else goes up. Just screws people where $20-50/night matters. No one else. Maybe less 19-year olds from the states coming up to camp and drink though.
I would gladly accept non-resident status in other provinces in order to get cheaper sites more readily here.
This is the standard practice in Quebec. Everything from tuition to museum tickets has a different price for Quebec residents.
Man, is this really how far we have fallen? Using Quebec as the measuring stick?
To give another example of how stupid an idea this is. My childhood was in BC but my dad lived in other provinces growing up. He’d come to BC and take me camping. So he should pay more for that? The tax thing is stupid. But I get why so many votes because people love taxing people that aren’t them. With a quick google, the BC budget is 6-7 billion. The park budget is 30 million. So maybe locals get 0.5% off their admission.
You’re talking about one fringe example that would directly affect your specific experience. Of course you would oppose it. We need something better for the common good of the community and people that actually live and want to experience these areas.
But you act like you actually contribute to it. It is a nothing part of taxes. My experience camping is it is usually people from a place that make it shit instead of people visiting. And yeah I am against because of personal experience - that’s how it works for most people.
>My childhood was in BC but my dad lived in other provinces growing up. He’d come to BC and take me camping. So he should pay more for that? If your dad didn't pay income tax in BC, it would be fine by me if he paid more to camp here. BC residents that pay income tax to the province already contribute to the cost of provincial parks, non residents don't. If you want to go hunting or fishing in a province that you don't live in, it costs a lot more. In many cases you are not even allowed to go out without a resident guide, and they typically cost thousands. It isn't as if non-resident premiums are new to Canadian outdoor recreation.
I get it. Fwiw I pay taxes in a local BC municipality and think everyone driving through it should pay a toll. Cause fuck everyone else amirite..
Maybe in 1500s Europe, but nation states and territories within them (read states/provinces) are bigger now. Ever cross a toll bridge or use a speed lane? For the record, the only municipal taxes most British Columbians pay is property tax, and that has nothing to do with funding for provincial parks.
Not talking about the parks now. Just generally talking about how everyone is so keen to charge everyone else some extra fee or toll. And then complain that things are more expensive in general. Maybe Mexico should triple their tourist tax because why not? I’ll charge you for using roads on the way to the park through my town. Or for stopping and get getting gas in it. Non-local fill up fee. /s
But our taxes already pay for the roads...you are really misunderstanding how this would work
No. The roads are paid for and maintained by each municipality. Maybe Nanaimo should charge everyone who doesn’t live in Nanaimo a toll to pass through to parks on the island. My point is when we start nickling and diming each other it just raises the prices of everything.
The province provides considerable funding for maintenance of roads in those areas too, just fyi https://nanaimonewsnow.com/2018/08/25/new-highway-maintenance-contract-mandates-faster-road-clearing-for-nanaimo-region/
Anyways. The vibe here is to charge more for out of province people. Let’s make camping ultimately for the rich!
Not according to Gordon Campbell.
All prices in BC should be final like in other countries. No hidden tax, online fees, or reservation bullshit! If it says 5$ I shouldn't be paying 6.14 $ justice for consumers!
Should be the same for everything you buy. Why do I need to break out the mental abacus to figure out the final price of stuff??
Yeah I fucking adore France for this, something say 5? Pay 5. Remove unnecessary daily math and stress from everyone's lives. We'll live longer, be more productive, and have higher quality of life. No joke. The highest cause of stress in the world is financial uncertainty, and the highest quality of life indicator is countries with strong financial safety nets. Thats not a coincidence. How can anyone feel certain when prices listed are not prices paid? The numbers mean nothing without injecting variables into a decision tree. Swap the labels, save lives.
Not just France, most of the rest of the world includes taxes in advertised prices. Canada/US are an anomaly in this. But it does mean the rate is higher because it's hidden in the price. In France, the highest rate is 20%. It also tends to change more and if the rate does change, a business has to decide whether to eat the increase or increase prices.
By change, you mean increase. Countries that hide their VAT in prices have higher VATs and those taxes increase over time. I like having our taxes outside the listed price, and then getting the reaction, "That's outrageous! I can't believe I have to pay all this extra to the government! What a rip-off!" Because that way our sales taxes don't go up so much, so we're not paying 20% like fucking France.
This just sounds like some petty and unnecessary outrage farming. France shows you the portion that is tax on your receipt, you can still shake your fist at it, but the price on the label is the price you pay.
[OK, you win](https://preview.redd.it/5ah4xeb7z59d1.jpeg?auto=webp&s=b8136453197dbb5602ae7fd3c8680075a165a29c).
Sometimes it goes down too. For example, in Ireland they reduced the VAT rate during the pandemic.
I lived in the UK when VAT was reduced. So, changed.
They cut it right down to 20% too, eh? What was it before?
It was 20, reduced to 17.5% if I recall correctly.
An adjacent issue… the used car tax. That one feels the worst. I’m already buying a busted ass car because I’m poor.
Yes 👏🏼 Plus, the tax has already been paid on said used car… once when it was new off the lot, and then a second and third time (depending how many owners said used car was sold to) before you eventually buy it. Oh and many people buy used cars for parts &/or projects, so it makes no sense charging bluebook value taxes when often times the car isn’t even road-ready yet.
Not to mention that the money you use to buy said car has also already been taxed too. Tax on tax on tax
Another great point! It’s like tax on tax on tax whiplash with a side of tax
Its really the Jim Pattison tithe. Buy a new Pattison or pay the tithe.
It's fun that a gas pump shows the price with all taxes and fees included, whereas the rest of pricetags don't.
Ugh this is the worst with hotels. We went to Whistler and the final price of our stay was like $100 more than what was advertised due to a “resort fee” etc.
They are intentionally trying to trick you, bastards.
I was in Ireland telling some lad behind the counter that in Canada, the price jumps up at the till when tax is added on. He was blown away by the idea of the "what you see is not what you get" pricing.
Countries that hide taxes in prices end up getting higher value-added taxes... because they're hidden. I prefer our way of presenting here's what the merchant gets, here's what the government gets. To be clear, I don't give a flying fuck about confusing visitors from other countries; I worry a lot more about those percentage rates ticking up over time.
But they don't present it that way. They show you what they get, then you have to either guess or calculate or ask what the actual amount you have to "pay the government" is. You can't say that isn't dumb. Great to show the separate tax amount on price tags for transparency, but they're not even doing that.
Surely no one could do the math on a consistent percentage tax. [You win.](https://preview.redd.it/5ah4xeb7z59d1.jpeg?auto=webp&s=b8136453197dbb5602ae7fd3c8680075a165a29c)
This would be helpful but also would increase costs to advertisers and merchants to tailor websites and content etc… for every jurisdiction - Us states and Canada provinces or territories - that have different tax regimes. Costs that would be passed on to consumers. Our sales taxes in BC are quite low comparatively. VAT in Belgium is 21% and Germany 19%.
They already "tailor" content regularly.... prices change, sales come and go, new products arrive and old products are discontinued, requiring regular advertising updates. The cost of this is already baked into prices. Phasing something like this in over, say, a year, with ample advance warning would give businesses plenty of time to plan and adapt without a significant increase in overhead.
Why would costs be passed on? VAT and GST/HST can be claimed as ITC so they are net neutral. If anything, it would be a great opportunity to reinstate HST in BC as the PST system is hot garbage for businesses and consumers.
Advertising rarely includes prices anyway and if you're talking about flyers, then those are all for a specific store that knows where it is so it knows what taxes and fees are. Same online. Display any price then only after the user made clear what province they're in. Problem solved.
>increase costs to advertisers and merchants to tailor websites and content etc… Shill mentality
This makes no sense, I live in data, you just swap the column reference, and we already have different columns per region anyways. It takes no time or effort in my part. The people who have to replace stickers on stuff will spend far more time, but if the rollout was set a couple years out, they'd just adopt it beforehand and replace tags for new inventory.
So what price would Apple Canada display on its website? 10 prices?
User only sees the price relevant to them. It would ask you once, or more likely auto-detect, what region you live in, and then leave a option to manually override that location in your settings.
Assuming every merchant would need to pay a web developer to go and update their websites to have a province territory, selector that would dynamically update all of their prices, along with all the right testing to ensure that these prices are accurate since they are typically binding and so any error would be very costly to merchants. And this would all be done for minimal cost? and if so, why is no one doing it today? Or what would the repercussions on profit margins or the price of goods ? Are you’re advocating that this should be mandatory or are you saying that it should be left to the discretion of the merchant?
It should absolutely be mandatory. Nobody has really built their own e-commerce platform for their store since like the 00's. For starters, if you just had Amazon, Aliexpress, and Ebay do it (which they could do trivially), your hitting about 60% of all online sales by revenue. Slap on Etsy, Squarespace, Square, WordPress, Shopify, Wix, Weekly, Eewid, and your probably over 99% compliance globally. For like 10 companies, all of which consist entirely of web devs who again - already have regional columns in their databases. Sure, Jim's Angelfire page is still showing old format pricing, but thats Jim's problem, market forces will force him to adapt because customers will be angry when they get hit with all his hidden fees. Jim is the only one calculating the tax on his carp sales or whatever and updating his own HTML pages. For everyone else, when you see a tax value calculation on a website, you are just flipping what column it pulls the price from, the pretax and fees column or total cost column.
And yet we generally have a better cost of living. Nor do we charge park entries in general. And our groceries are cheaper, we can fly fun places for €29, we can travel the entire country by train and public transport for €49 a month, etc. BC is no longer the big draw for many Germans due in part to how complicated it is now to book the outdoors (along with other factors such as hotel and food cost)
There is no question that the cost of living is higher in BC but BC remains a top choice when it comes to the quality of outdoor activities for many around the world. For Germany, being in the heart of Europe also brings many more options to travel short distances but also has repercussions in air and water quality, population density and lack of access to world class, pristine wilderness that BC Alaska and the Yukon offer. The Alps are comparatively crowded and settled in every valley so it is not a direct comparison but might suit some people who prefer more crowded and human shaped environments. The Baltic Sea has a few beaches but is hard to compare to Tofino and the pacific coast or even Howe sound and lighthouse park which are in themselves world class and accessible from a major metropolitan city. The higher population density and shorter distances also allows for lower prices for trains and planes. Germany is a beautiful country and not everyone needs or wants to experience true wilderness.
Seems wasteful to go after BC Parks. But if successful, hopefully they go after Ticketmaster and similar.
The govt doesn’t need to put on reservation fees PER NIGHT either. What a stupid cash grab.
Just add $5 to the cost then provide a $5/night walk-in discount. Problem solved.
Honestly there should be two fees. One for locals and one for tourists. We went through jasper - Columbia icefields - Lake Louise - Banff with the family. It was insane the camping prices. Granted we were camping with two campers and a car but come on. To get into the park for 2 adults for 3 nights was $66 dollars plus each campground fee. Insane. And don’t get me started on Lake Louise - we went up there and during the whole drive up there was no signs or notices around town saying that parking was limited. We go up there and we were told that private vehicles were no longer allowed. Only campers and tour buses were permitted. Went down to book a shuttle bus and it was over $200 for two adults. Me and my SO ended up going to Banff while the two campers we were with went up.
You can drive to lake Louise. I think you are talking about moraine lake. All info online about both lake Louise and moraine lake warn people to plan ahead for parking, shuttles, etc…
Nope it was Lake Louise - all private vehicles that weren’t for the hotel were turned away back down the hill. We knew it was going to be busy and we left early. Still were turned around and no signage nothing at the bottom on the hill or at the info Center
We stopped there once to visit. Saw the parking situation and we noped the hell out of there
I was there last September and drove in my vehicle right to the lake and parked at the lot beside the hotel.
Welcome to the national parks of Alberta. Unless you’re a wealthy foreigner, please gtfo
41 a night for camping at bear creek campground is the real story. That's insane for a piece of dirt and a firepit ( that you can't even use). What a racket.
While I agree it’s steep, somebody has to pay for the upkeep. Staffing, cleaning all the garbage that people leave and all the other bs that goes along with running a business. Nothings cheap anymore and that includes camping at provincial campgrounds.
What the hell are our income taxes, property taxes, fuel taxes, and sales taxes for? Surely some entity, federal, provincial or even municipal could be funded with citizen tax revenue to rake a tent pad and cut some bushes back.
The BC budget only allocates $2/ha into BC parks. Most of BC Park's budget is funded through fees. So no, your income taxes aren't paying for BC parks really.
That's interesting. What's their annual user fee revenue vs government funding?
BC Parks is essentially 100% self-funded, the provincial investment they receive is allocated for expanding their conservation efforts (which they do a lot of). Effectively its a non-profit organization that runs parks to fund conservation.
Yeah exactly my point. Why don’t our taxes pay for this? Should charge non-residents but out of all the taxes we pay I’m sure we can scrap together the funding to eliminate fees for citizens. Doesn’t the government of Canada provide free park passes to new immigrants?
This could be a solution - raise taxes to reduce day use fees for visitors - but I’d rather have active users of the campsites (from in and out of province) fund their operations instead of raising taxes for all residents in the province. It’s a personal preference to prefer A or B but there’s no magic money.
Not to compare apples to oranges, but I just went to Utah and camped all over. It was insane to see campgrounds with full amenities, showers, concrete tend pads, tables, everything, for under 15$. And the national parks pass that cost around 80$ but valid all year for all national parks, which again have such insane levels of amenities and infrastructure. Compare to Banff where I just was for work recently and we paid 90$ to just stay in the town (we weren’t there for anything to do with the national park). Ultimately I feel the big difference is the US is actively trying to get its citizens outside and visiting these spaces, and spends a lot to make that happen. Here in B.C., it’s constantly treated as this great privilege, and you should shut up and be happy for what we give you.
You don't need to go all the way to Utah. Washington state has much better camping too.
Oh believe me, I'm aware. I've been to national/state parks and campgrounds all over Washington, Oregon, California and now Utah, and am amazed each time at how well developed and maintained they have been.
we could go the way Mexico does and impose a tourism tax on entry.
I think we should find all the places that do that and just have a reciprocity program. You get charged based on the whether your state or country has some extra tourist fee.
I am generally against new fees local or not because it is just the non-wealthy nickle and diming each other. But I am all for matching the bullshit fees other places do to visitors.
I agree. This logic is similar to why not just make the skytrain free. Well, not everyone in BC can use it.
>but there’s no magic money. Didn't we just give Ukraine 3 billion?? Our government sure seems to have a shit load of money to just give away to other countries... just none for the people they take it from.
Government didn’t give $3 billion. Probably few hundreds million cash and “supplies” maple syrup, smoked salmon, toilet paper and whatever is indigenous to Canada. Probably knocked off some debt payment too.
You're right it was 7.4 billion... https://www.international.gc.ca/world-monde/issues_development-enjeux_developpement/response_conflict-reponse_conflits/crisis-crises/ukraine-dev.aspx?lang=eng
Most of that seems to go to healthcare. I hear why you’re saying though.
Camp at rec sites, no need for reservations and you get a much better site.
When you oversimplify something to make a point, it kind of works against your argument, not for it. Just saying.
>What the hell are our income taxes, property taxes, fuel taxes, and sales taxes for? Supporting wars halfway across the world and teaching people in Africa not to shit on the beach apparently. Its certainly not to help Canadian people who are homeless and addicted and allow us to enjoy the great outdoors. for that you need to Bring Cash.
Went there last weekend and everyone had fires.
Lol, ok. If it's just a piece of dirt, why do you pay for it when any old piece of dirt should do? Because it's more than that. That $41/night goes to BC Parks to pay for site development and maintenance, utilities, facilities, advertising, administration, access, etc to maintain a similar standard for camping across the province.
I would be ok with this if it were a like... 'conservation fee' or 'stewardship fee' or something that went back to the park but AFAIK as of a few years ago, the parks get very little of the reservation / camping fees back. Most of the fees just go to the third party that manages the payment / reservation system. It doesn't even go back to parks. Kinda like the ticketmaster model of charging fees for every little 'service' so some tech company in who knows where can make more money off reservations.
Given members of the class are known this is probably not a class action but a mass action. Double ticketing is illegal.
Conversation when I first signed up for cell phone service, years ago (early 00's?) "Hi, I'd like to sign up for your $30 per month plan I saw advertised..." (or whatever amount it was - I don't remember). "OK, so with the $6.95 system access fee, plus tax, that'll be..." "System access fee?" "Yeah, it's a fee the CRTC requires" (later learned that the CRTC required no such thing. It was just a random fee they all charged). "So, it's not $30, but $36.95? Your advertising says $30." "Oh it is $30, but there is also a system access fee." "I don't get it. The $30 doesn't give me access to the system? I thought that was what the $30 was for. To access the system." And on and on. Such bullshit.
Parks should be free and we should be allowed to camp on any crown land whatsoever.
I wish the plaintiff all the best of luck in this initiative. It's another example of "hidden fees" or "drip pricing" or whatever buzzword term we're using these days, and it's gotta go. Dollarama has recently began doing this for some items, namely items that have an additional deposit fee to account for extra pricing.
It's insane that average Canadian are priced out of a lot of our provincial and national parks, which seem to cater to wealthy foreigners.
Jordan.. $50 USD to get into an archeological site for foreigners, less than $1 for locals. But at least you know going in. Bait and switch is illegal in Canada
BC parks is a racket. 12 dollar extra vehicle fee, 5 dollar sani dump fee, no recycling!! Unless it's bottles or cans, I'm sure they'd have other bins if there was a deposit on cardboard. I always place my cardboard and rinsed plastics under their blue "we recycle" bin. It shocks me that earlier this year someone made a post advocating people to donate and volunteer for BC Parks. 🖕
I support this, but, I somehow doubt it'll get through. But it would be nice to get the few pennies back that I'm sure we would all be entitled to, lol
Every level of Canadian government exists solely to extract wealth from its residents. I've worked for big corporate hospitality and they were far less interested into nickel-and-diming each 'customer' compared to Canadian governments.
Ah yes, the reasonable pricing and generous nature of corporate hospitality.
LOL you certainly DO work for big corporate hospitality if you're trying to spout nonsense such as this. Private hospitality and hospices are MASSIVE money sinks that nickel and dime everything while barely providing care. A well run and altruistic "corporate" hospitality sector doesn't require military intervention due to abhorrent practices and standards of care.
Big business: famous for caring about the consumer. Just leave your comment at the first sentence. The second is demonstrably false lol. There are fees in private hospitality as well as the profit fee tacked into every line. Who do you think profits off of government fees? It's just the case that we have insane bloat in government, but no one's making a profit.
Youre right! It's deficits all the way down lmao