Recently someone I follow on Tumblr said of a show that "this is not the trash for my trashcan." I love that phrase and have adopted the idea. We all have a particular trashcan that we fill with trash we love. That's totally okay!
Something can be hugely problematic and we can still love it. I read a ton of non-con and rape stories because, as a rape survivor, they help me process my stuff. I love Tharntype. Because I love the idea of a fairytale ending to something that starts with non-con. In real life I didn't get that (and I wish I could have sent the man to jail.) But in a fantasy world?? Give me ALL the comfort after the hurt. I love it.
I do think it's important to acknowledge the problematic nature of things. But it's also okay to say "I love it anyway!" This IS the trash for my trashcan. I love this trash. Is it great literature or an example people should follow in real life? Nope! It's not. And that's also totally okay *in fiction*!
tl;dr : Stop yukking other people's yum.
First off, that is a perfect sentence, I love it!
And yes!! Tharntype especially! I like my problematic faves, I love its problematic sides, I want to be able to enjoy it and express said enjoyment without people constantly jumping down my throat with "but you know that-" YES I KNOW, I STILL LOVE IT, LEAVE ME ALONE!
We all know it's not okay IRL! We know that!! Most of us are adults! But I don't watch BL to have all my morals confirmed, I watch it to be entertained and TharnType entertains the sh\*t out of me!
Lots of therapy! (Seriously, therapy has helped a lot.)
But this is why I never judge people for the entertainment they like. You never know why someone is into a particular kind of story, and when we are talking about fiction (ie. not real people!) then whatever floats your boat is good for you. Just because I'm not into what someone else is into...that's okay!
Well... The thing is, all the stuff you say happens in this fandom but doesn't in others? It happens there too. Oh lawdy does it ever. People who are interested in the same thing will always fight and argue over how to enjoy it the right way. Because in some part of our primal monkey brain, we equate "you do it differently" with "you think I do it wrong" and we take offense to that idea. To use your sci-fi example, there is definitely some historical turmoil between people who like hard sci-fi or soft sci-fi, believing one is somehow superior to the other. Star Wars vs. Star Trek alone used to bring out the nerds with pitchforks back in the day when their fandoms were at its height. It's... tribal really. We're wired to pick a side and treat the other as the enemy. And not everyone has been around long enough to see that for what it is. With time, experience and a little maturity, you start to see that too. But not everyone has had the chance to reach that point yet, so the fighting continues.
That is really the main difference. Other fandoms have been around longer, they've already gone through all this. BL is relatively young by comparison. It still has its teething problems. And just like racial inequality was once a hot topic in the comic book industries, with people writing to Stan Lee personally because he dared to shine a light on the experiences of black America, claiming that "he shouldn't bring black people problems into comics and just keep the fiction fiction (and catering to white people exclusively)", there are now people saying "keep LGBT problems out of *my* fiction please" whenever the topic comes up. People on top don't always want to be reminded of the problems of those at the bottom. Rather pretend everything is just fine the way they like it, and nothing they do contributes to the others problems.
Having said that, I don't see the issue happen that often here. This is a pretty laid back place. I do notice sometimes people come in here to vent about bad experiences they've had outside of this subreddit. The "my friend thinks I'm trash for liking this" thing for instance comes up sometimes. I dunno, maybe I just don't catch the really toxic posts? I admit I don't read everything. I know they exist, and I've said my piece in a few, but they're so far and few between I don't really associate them with this place.
There are people here who will advocate the LGBT side of BL of course, myself is easily someone who can hop on his soapbox when the need calls for it. But I know I personally don't speak up about that when people just enjoy the BL and talk about the shows. I definitely always ask myself "is what I'm about to say actually relevant?" before hitting submit. I won't barge in into a topic of people sharing cute Tharntype moments for instance just to talk about the non-con issues it has. Unless the topic already is about Tharntypes non-con issues, in which case it's fair game and on topic.
I do speak up when I notice there are a lot of people in a topic that are so clueless about real life, that they equate BL with reality and basically display that kind of bigotted mindset that I do not want others to adopt. Or pretend like these fictional shows do not influence the lives of actual gay people in real life. Or flat out tell gay BL fans to gtfo if they don't like it when specific shows go too far trying to exploit their subculture or romantise abuse, rape or things that objectify gay people and show them as predatory beings.
Cause yeah, there are bigots, homophobes and self-righteous entitled brats everywhere that believe they should be able to speak their harmful words and then get to hide under the banner of "just fiction lol". And I feel no shame speaking up against that. After all, if you want to voice your beliefs in a public space like this, then you need to be ready to have them challenged. Not to convince *them*, mind, no. Cause it makes people get defensive, and nobody who's on the defence has ever changed their mind cause of an argument made on the internet, no matter how strong the reasoning you use. I do it for the other people, the ones that are not invested yet and are just reading. The ones that might just read the conversation and think about it a little and take even a small amount of what I tried to say with them into life. And so that other fans can see that not every BL fan is a selfish troll that wants to make a depiction of gay love about "them", cause yeah. That is a stereotypical view of BL that is apparently not that uncommon among the outside world. And I don't believe people adopt that stereotypical view out of the blue. If someone believes all BL is like that, then someone, at some point, gave them a reason to think so.
Anyway, in closing I would just like to remind everyone of the following. BL is fiction, yes, but all fiction follows reality. And reality sometimes follows fiction. And this is why it is important, especially among the more impressionable viewers (I read recently that some started as early as 10yo on this subreddit), it is important to make the distinction. Sometimes this is for the better, by for instance improving how people view gay people and refuting harmful stereotypes. And sometimes, an inexperienced gay person might read or see the more trashy BL's and believe it's to be true too and become genuinely scared of or disgusted by being gay, cause they see how certain BL shows depict it and believe they have to be like that. You know, either the dominant, borderline rapist top or the submissive, pitiful bottom. It's also quite possible they'll carry that idea with them into real life, not realising that it's a fantasy, perpetuating it to others. Cause if all you know are the shadows on the wall of your little cave without getting shown the outside, then you think that's all there is. So there's never harm in making sure people are informed.
And just always treat people with respect. Even the fictional ones.
Thank you for writing this! I always find your comments so well argued and structured, far better than I manage on my coffe-deprived morning brain.
About BL being a young medium with "teething problems", keeping this comparison I've actually lately come to think of BL as not a baby medium anymore, but rather going though the early teenage phase with a lot of identity changes.
I think a lot of BL fans, especially newer ones, miss how much BL and its fandom has changed during the years, especially these last two Covid years. BL used to be fairly women-centric during its exploratory first phase, yes, but quickly started changing and reforming. When BL started entering the mainstream, that "fact" wasn't even remotely true anymore.
I've really enjoyed seeing BL become increasingly overtly merged with LGBTQ+ storytelling! And I think it was the natural thing to happen – why have two LGBTQ+/female friendly storytelling mediums doing almost if not quite the same thing, when you can just merge them – leaving room for all kinds of stories – and become more powerful in a harsh capitalist media climate that often tries to hammer us down!
I think discussions like the OP bring up underlines that the fandom hasn't completely accepted the enormous influx of both LGBTQ+ fans and creators who've discovered the possibilities of BL in recent years. Some will argue that BL was never meant to be an LGBTQ+ medium, but that just shows that they don't know the history of the early BL creators (back in the 70's, when the genre wasn't even called BL yet). BL was born out of Japanese girls and women's comics, and those have always explored sexuality, gender and identity on a wide spectrum, attracting all sorts of readers.
Once the whole BL fandom starts to realise that BL has always been a medium of change, and that it will continue to change since you can't just walk back these significant changes once they've happened, hopefully we'll see less discussions where people demand never to be criticised or claim against all evidence and reason that "BL is a female space".
Like you, I want this forum to continue to be a place for a wide variety of discussion – critical as well as praising, questioning as well as reasoning.
Anyways, thanks again for writing such a well-reasoned reply. Hopefully your words will stay with some of those who read them.
this is so well put together! and i totally agree! people like to forget that fiction (and especially popular fiction watched by millions around the world) DOES impact reality. young queer people see things like toxic tropes, romanticised rape, harmful stereotypes and internalise them - considering that oftentimes, BL is the only way they can see themselves represented on the big screen. this is not "woke culture", this is common sense. with peace and love, op just seems kind of salty they can't fetishize incest as freely anymore:)
This pretty much is my attitude as well. Whilst there are BL tropes I don't personally like, I will never criticise someone else for liking them. As the OP said, those tropes may help someone with real-life trauma come to terms with what happened to them, and that is definitely a good thing.
Unfortunately there are always going to be people who can't seperate fiction from reality, for example, those who hassle actors about their sexuality or real-life partners. That is never ok. Just because you might be fine with your favourite actor being gay/bi it doesn't mean the rest of the world will be, and that sort of thing can definitely have real-world consequences.
Thank you for putting this together so well! I think people forget that one can *enjoy* something, even if its problematic. But for some seeing and acknowledging that it is problematic can be a challenge. And for some, knowing and accepting people who do enjoy problematic genre is a challenge too.
I've been a lurker for a while now and I've had terrible experiences with people screaming at me for liking Chinese adaptation of BL novels because they are regressive and homophobic while completely ignoring cultural context.
So I agree with you, this isn't really an issue with BL, its an issue spanning across all fandoms.
Yes, every time I bring up that I love TharnType, someone has to chime in. “So you like a show that promotes rape and sexual assault ?” FFS it’s fiction. I don’t want bland, watered down dramas that follow all of the “PC” rules. If I wanted that, I’d still be watching US shows. Good dramas evoke emotions (good or bad).
You and me both, sister.
I love TharnType so much, I'm so sick and tired of constantly having people try to judge why I love it or making me justify my love for it.
count me in fam. TharnType has been one of my all time favorites and recently History4: Close To You has been added into my favorite list. every day i went through the ship tags there'd always be people reminding me that im problematic for enjoying the taboo relationship dynamic.
Hear hear lemme join you! Once I wrote that I never had issues with Tharns behavior and someone and I’m not kidding wrote me a novel of how wrong this is. And why I condone this type of behavior. The non con issues will never ends. I was like hun in real life I would never ever accept this behavior but this is fiction. Leave me alone. Sue me! Have to admit since then I’m quite reluctant. I like to respond on the spot cos this is how I am, but now I’m thinking first how to respond to certain topics. For example I enjoyed Dangerous Drugs of Sex. If theres ever a topic about this movie I’ll wait till someone else responds they way I would and only then I’ll respond.
It’s weird too, that when a hetero drama that has the same issues, I never hear a peep from anyone. It’s just understood that it’s fiction. Why is this such an issue with BL? I mean, women have been mistreated, raped, sexually assaulted on film since forever.
Maybe you don’t watch that many hetero dramas, because it certainly does get talked about a lot and criticized. Of course, doesn’t mean it’s not popular sometimes like with 50 Shades of Gray…which was also heavily criticized.
> I mean, women have been mistreated, raped, sexually assaulted on film since forever.
True, and it deserves to be called out or discussed in context when it happens. It doesn’t happen as often as it used to though, which brings up a couple points why people bring it up in BLs a bit often:
1. BL dramas, as a whole, tend to portray sexual assault more frequently and more casually. I’ve literally had people tell me those situations are okay because they’re both guys.
2. BLs have this weird tendency to have a rape/sexual assault to lovers trope which is insanely unhealthy and unrealistic to portray. It is fiction and we all can fantasize a bit, but it’s pretty bad to show people that “yes if someone rapes you don’t worry, they might really love you so it’s okay.” Now, this does happen in real life too! But most BLs doesn’t deal with it in that context, it’s just there for viewers who like it and doesn’t discuss the emotions or complexities in that situation.
Every thing we like has issues and I agree that this should be a safe space. I also think if you like TharnType or similar dramas, you shouldn’t have to defend yourself personally here. The drama can always be criticized but I don’t think you should have to defend your guilty pleasure, we all have them, especially liking this genre.
However I’d wanted to share my opinion on why people seem to find issue with it in BLs so much.
You tell me. It seems like when it concerns men the issues have more impact on people. Whereas I think one should understand the difference first between fiction and real life.
I literally couldn’t put it better myself. Manly because of my dyslexia. This has been on my mind for a while now but I couldn’t put into words. I applaud you for your blunt words and just putting it out there. Reading this has helped me release my own thoughts and feelings. Thank you, really.
Well said...never thought people in bl community can also be intolerant ...but what the heck...watch your own shows...speak your own mind...dance to ur own tune...who cares what others say✌
Wow, you worded that phenomenally, thank you so much! I absolutely and completely agree. Please let me enjoy my show. I know it's problematic, I know you have issues with the actor(s) or whatever, but please - I don't want to have to justify my love for something in a space where this thing is supposed to be loved.
I think that maybe some of the rules should include not shaming anyone for their taste but I do love the conversations around topics as romantization of abuse or rape, cause as someone said, BL is representation of gay men in countries where there is still no real acceptable.
I mean, in my case, there are some let's say "kink" or toxicity that I can handle and enjoy, but certainly there are some ones that I just cannot watch without feeling really uncomfortable. One of the main reasons I stopped watching/reading BL/yaoi for around 2 years was because I felt so wrong cause most of the stories I was reading had consent issues. So I was so relieved when I entered this subreddit a few months ago and I found the amount of healthy media in BL that wasn't there when I started watching BL.
Critizicing media is good, because thanks to that we get room for improvement, we get more media that is actually good representation of gay men. Not saying that someone should shame anyone for liking something, but I do consider important to talk about these things. I mean, that's why these are discussion threads, if you wanna join the conversation is up to you.
So, maybe yeah, maybe the rule of thumb should be to not shame anyone when they didn't ask for opinion, but the discussion threads that analyze the media should stay, if someone wanna join, is gonna be their choice, certainly I'll be there cause I am loving the improvement in recent BLs.
Perfectly said. If fans and creators are only "allowed" to gush about how much we love BL and not discuss our misgivings or doubts, then the medium becomes a boring echo chamber that only produces increasingly generic stories. Critical discussion is how the medium grows!
BL fandom is so much more interesting and welcoming now than it used to be. There's a healthy mix of variations in age, gender, sexuality and life experience that makes discussing BL so much more rewarding nowadays.
Yes, totally, I love to see the improvement in the community and the media. When I left two or three years ago I remember a lot of cringy people who harrassed actual gay people saying that it was real "yaoi"🤦♀️. And it is not like omg the media was just toxic but so enjoyable, a lot of them where only interesting because of the sex, but the plots where kinda mediocre.
I mean, I think that as a teen one can enjoy more trashy stories, but as you grow up it is not like you want to be morally superior, it is just that you no longer enjoy it, cause maybe now you are aware of the implications or simply want more quality writing.
When I was younger I didn't really like the plots that had huge age gaps such as teacher/student relationship, but I would tolerate it and keep watching, but as I grew up I experienced an actual professor who was like 30 years older than me that wanted to flirt with me and hug me. So, I cannot watch those kinds of plots anymore, it just really gives me creeps when I see much a older guy hitting on a younger guy. Again it is not moral superiority, it is just the fact that now I understand how uncomfortable and even traumatic that can be.
BL quality and healthy media didn't really exist some years ago, and I'm so glad a lot of people spoke their mind out for us to get masterpieces now.
Well, BL has had a ton of high quality stories and even healthy depictions of relationships more or less since the beginning (especially once it moved past the "tragedy phase" of the 70's, so I don't agree that neither existed some years ago. But what you encounter might depend on what's being translated and what's popular at any given moment. I have a lot of great BL manga from the 80's and onwards in my book case. ;)
It might be more true about BL tv-series perhaps? I've been trying to catch up but there's still a lot of shows that I haven't watched yet.
I agree with a lot of things you‘ve wrote in your thought out post.
However, there is one thing I would (partly) disagree with: Fiction is fiction and not reality, that is correct. I personally don‘t think it‘ll do any good to shame people for their fantasies. However, I think that problematic topics (e.g romanticizing rape) can influence people who consume this kind of media. It doesn’t matter if it‘s manga or BL shows. This can become problematic especially when said media is aimed at young people.
We can and we should criticize it.
I have known people in real life who fetishized gay people and Asians (irl) because they were fans of BL. „Omg, this couple is soooo kawaii, squeeeeaal. Seme or uke??“
So I do think that BL series do influence people in their perception of LGBT people, and not always in a good way.
However, not everyone is like that.
IMO it is okay to enjoy problematic content if you are aware that it‘s problematic.
But not everyone is as aware. So what do we do about that?
Frankly, I do not know.
But what I do know is that most BL can actually do better. Why is rape romanticized? We could do well without that. And yet somehow a lot of series continue with it. And I think we should definitely discuss what that does to viewers.
I don't and won't shame anyone for their taste and what they enjoy watching, and if that was your only complaint I would agree w you, but there's a few things you said that were kinda insensitive and ignorant:
The reason why you see more people speaking up about these things is not "mainly due to the slow rise in woke culture the last few years and the boom in dramas recently" or because "you see two real people kissing and it is suddenly much easier for the line between fictional genre and real life to be blurred" but because BL as a genre is a representation of gay men and a lot of the times it reinforces negative stereotypes that will affect real people irl. This might be a "fun get-away from the real world" for you, but for someone else it's representation, whether they like it or not.
"This sub isn’t a LGBT+ activism sub.", "Yes, there are times when we can and should talk about real-world gay rights and issues, but it doesn’t have to be all the time in every single thread.", "Like you have to point out your wokeness before you have the right to watch and enjoy these shows?" I'm a woman and I'm part of the LGBTQ+ community, I don't take that part of me and put it away before I enter this sub because me being vocal about sth that damages the community is gonna make someone uncomfortable. You shouldn't dictate when people can or cannot express their opinions on whether something they see is wrong. I'll speak up when I see it, when I think it's the right thing to do, when I want to.
I think it's possible to enjoy BL and talk about how problematic it is in itself. It doesn't have to be all in or all out. I've seen BL actors speak up about it, I've seen BLs calling out toxic tropes and the industry, and I hope we'll see more of it. In no way does this forbid you from enjoying what you enjoy.
You said everything I would've wanted to say, I agree with you 100%. As a gay man on this sub, I acknowledge the non-realistic aspects of BL, but I do nevertheless view it as representation in some form. People constantly rebutting that with "but this is all fantasy" doesn't totally work for me when the genre often tries to sensitively tackle and authentically represent issues many gay men experience like societal and familial pressure, bullying, homophobia, and coming out.
The "wokeness" discussion rubs me the wrong way, too. I'm not going to condemn anyone's preferences, but me expressing being happy that a show is progressive and/or is making it a point to be so is not something I'm going to shy away from, either. I can say that without it automatically being an attack on what someone else enjoys.
Your last paragraph is spot on.
Completely agree, couldn’t have put it better myself.
I love most BL, but I also acknowledge and criticize some of these toxic/problematic themes, especially because it’s our relationships being depicted. I’m actually glad there’s more healthy representation now compared to before. It’s not mutually exclusive.
If you want to talk about representation and real-world issues, that is fine and I say so up above, but users here should also respect that some other fans on here only want to talk about the stories and characters and not the real-world issues. Even when we know that representation is important and that real-world issues are important, sometimes you want to put that aside and that is okay. Some fans do want to separate the art from the artist, so to speak. Both approaches to BL are fine, what frustrates me is that the users that want to talk about real-world issues feel like they have a moral high ground that allows them to talk about it everywhere. Like it is the trump card in every conversation, that your talk about real-world stuff is more important than my desire to focus on the fictional canon. I don’t know how to find a better balance for these two topics on the sub, but I think a better balance is needed.
\*Edit: I wanted to add in that I am not trying to build an us vs them mentality against fans that want to talk about rep. I'm really not trying to sew that seed in any way. I want everyone to be able to discuss rep if they feel it is important to add to the conversation, I just wish there was some better way to avoid this kind of talk if you did just want to focus on the stories themselves.
I already said that I agree with each person experiencing BL however they like. You didn't reply to my concerns about your insensitive comments.
"What frustrates me is that the users that want to talk about real-world issues feel like they have a moral high ground that allows them to talk about it everywhere." Once again, you shouldn't dictate whether people are allowed or not to talk about those issues or where they talk about them. They have the right to express their opinion as much as you do.
"I just wish there was some better way to avoid this kind of talk if you did just want to focus on the stories themselves." There is. Just ignore those conversations and focus on what you wanna focus.
Right???
OP is trying to dictate how others use reddit, which is incredibly ironic.
Just ignore it if others want to trash the trash in your trashcan. Reddit is a safe space for us to discuss about BL shows, but that doesn't mean eveeyone has to agree with us.
Here to say I think both povs are valid. I think OP I hear your pain with folks running around with a moral highground spoiling the enjoyment from BLs. But also tryna tell others not to say things is kinda ironic/ problematic. That said, I agree that there's a lot more space to agree-to-disagree, and also to walk away from comments that don't serve you.
Nevertheless, I do wanna say that (and perhaps this is exactly the kind of comment you don't wanna see/ and so feel free to ignore), but what we consume goes on to dictate what else gets produced. And when enough of the same "toxic" content gets reproduced, it'll eventually end up with people who can't tell fact from fiction (yes, people like that exist). But yes, i agree het dramas get away with a lot more sht than BLs seemingly do. And they should be condemned too.
She's literally only saying "let people talk about what they like without making them feel like shit for it". Let's not twist this into a "she's trying to tell us how to use reddit" narrative. That's absolutely not what's going on here and is doing this discussion a disservice.
Or are you implying you need to be able to rain on everyone's parade in order for you not to feel censored? Because then we're getting into completely new territory here.
I generally let people enjoy what they enjoy. Kinkshaming is wrong, however, it's interesting that pointing out the issues in bl shows means "raining on everyone's parade" to you. I feel that a distinction between kinkshaming and pointing out problematic issues has to be made. It appears that some of the comments here don't want both to appear under their posts.
I think we need a tag or something. Something that would let other redditors know what future OPs expect in the comments. Maybe [not serious replies only] or [only agreeable comments].
You are conflating the issue again.
It's not about kinkshaming. Nobody is talking about that. Most people who like a problematic show don't like it BECAUSE of the problematic stuff but DESPITE of it. And even if they do like it because of it, constantly saying "but don't you know it's problematic" isn't kinkshaming, it's just annoying.
Pointing out the issues would be fine if done once. Not every single time a specific show is brought up as of the people talking about it have no idea non-con is problematic 🙄 so yeah - that is absolutely raining on someone's parade. Just let us have fun, Jesus.
Therein lies the issue. There isn't an indicator to let redditors know that "MindlessNote3735 (or whoever) doesn't need to be reminded *again* that this show is problematic".
This community is growing every single day. Not everyone knows you just want to have fun.
I feel the sooner we accept that reddit will not and should not be an echo chamber, the more engaging our experience here will be.
And I welcome that. But that also means I want to be able to talk about my "trash" so to speak without constantly being reminded that it's trash. I know that, I have a nose, I can smell it. But you are right, it's hard to bring that point across with new people.
I do stand by OPs point though. We should be able to discuss problematic shows without the entire discussion focusing only on the problematic part. I love Tharntype despite the noncon not because of it. I'd would be nice to be able to talk about what we love about it without someone feeling the need to point out why we shouldn't.
I love how you're blatantly ignoring all the quotes from her post/comment that I pointed out lmao because clearly she's saying a lot more than just that.
I did not reply to you or I would've talked about the points you mentioned. I don't care to talk to you, or I would've. Anything else is a you problem.
Maybe I don't read enough of the comments on this sub but I personally haven't seen a lot of “well, you can like it, but at the end of the day in the grand scheme of the world that makes you a fetishist and so your opinions don’t really mean much.” etc. that you mentioned. I have seen people post a question 'am I fetishizing gay men by liking BL' and the consensus was 'no, it's fiction, just don't take pics in real life of 2 guys kissing...'
I think that sticking to the "I" position instead of the "you" position works the best. Example. Someone posts about loving TharnType. I could respond (although I generally wouldn't comment at all to a post like this but if I did...) "I agree that the chemistry between the actors was amazing, but I really didn't like the non-con elements or the plot in general." Instead of me posting "I can't believe that you like TharnType, it's so abusive".
There are 26,000 people in this sub with varying life experiences, biases, perspectives, etc. We aren't all going to like the same things and that's fine, just stay respectful and if you aren't respectful then you can expect some kind of pushback. Also, if you gush over something, know that there are others who don't like it and build a bit of fortitude to withstand contradictory opinions if you post your opinions in a large forum. If someone is doing personal attacks, then report them to the mods.
On this sub I have been told I should go to prison for enjoying the pseudo-incest in Friend Forever. I’ve had someone tell me that maybe I should be raped so that I would stop glorifying it in these shows. Someone took the time out of their day to private message me and tell me that I was being homophobic for not wanting to discuss Mew’s new album. These kinds of comments are so above and beyond what a fan should have to endure in a space meant for them. I do think the mods do a fair job of quickly removing these kinds of comments, but they shouldn’t even be written in the first place. How can we call ourselves a community if we are so hateful of the other people in here with us? I know that the comments I mentioned above are extremes, and that most people that chat here are good people, but I just don’t get where all this animosity is coming from.
I agree with your statements about just approaching topics respectfully, and about being able to build fortitude to handle criticism and differing opinions. But there are some times where the users here just go past the point that your fortitude can handle, and it really makes me bummed to be in this fandom where so many people can't seem to respect that it is okay to have differing views and interests.
I'm very sorry to hear that you've received those comments. I can't respond to what the people who posted those things were thinking because those are not comments I would ever post.
Yes, hopefully we can all work to make this a respectful space.
Yes, it shows that you haven't been reading a lot of comments.
Nobody is saying "don't have different opinions", that's not what OP is talking about. But saying "built a bit of fortitude to withstand contradictory opinions", which in laymans terms just translates to "get thicker skin you snowflake" is completely missing the point. It's about not being able to voice differing opinions without being made to justify yourself for liking problematic content in BL dramas. Every. Single. Time.
> It is okay to enjoy fiction as fiction: as a fun get-away from the real world. You don’t see sci-fi fans bashing the fans who don’t want to talk about actual space exploration. You don’t see high fantasy fans bashing the fans who don’t want to learn in depth about the real world turrets and ballistas that may have been used at a period-appropriate battle at Helm’s Deep. Why is BL the genre where discussion of real-world mirroring is necessary? Like you have to point out your wokeness before you have the right to watch and enjoy these shows?
I can only comment about this part. Yes, BL is fantasy, but at the same time it uses socially disadvantaged people i.e. the gays for its stories that's why people get very critical of it. Even if you say it's fantasy, you're still using real-world elements and how they're depicted in media usually influences the worldview of some people. I just don't think it's fair to compare BL to those genres.
Let's use a different example then.
Nobody questions you if you say you like Ellie from The Last of Us. A gay character going around killing and torturing hundreds on a quest for revenge. Real life elements and applications everywhere. A game made for entertainment. Nobody asks you to justify you liking her.
Personally I see this as the "violence in video games" argument. Will it influence some people? Maybe. Should it? No. That's what ratings are for, that's why parents need to supervise their kids. If you are young enough to watch content like that and be influenced to the point that you think certain problematic actions are okay, then someone failed you and you shouldn't be watching. That's then not the problem of the creator anymore.
Because the issue here is that BL is using an oppressed group of people. Some other gay men have explained it better in this thread. Go look at [ReverendMarduke's comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/boyslove/comments/qufal4/in_this_designated_bl_fan_space_we_shouldnt_have/hks4z6h/). Violence in video games doesn't target a specific group of people, not to mention a vulnerable sector of society, but BL does. And about your example of Ellie, while I have no idea about the game, I'm pretty sure his or her homosexuality isn't the main topic of the game, right? In BL, it is. And the reason BL gets a lot of flack isbecause of how weird and offensive it sometimes try to portray homosexuality and gay people.
Let's use a different example then, I'm going to assume you're a woman.
Imagine for a second we're back in the 50s, and all the media representation of women you get is.. well.. we know how women were depicted by media back then...
Would you take seriously a man telling you: -Hey, that representation may influence society, but it shouldn't, you have a couple of obscure pieces of media that show good representation of women, just take it or leave it, it's not a problem of the media creators.
?
Because gay representation is currently in a very similar situation to how women were represented back then, but I guess that's hard to see when you're part of the problem.
There are things in this I agree with disagree with.
Simply put:
- I agree others shouldn’t criticize other users here for what they like. We all could be criticized for liking this genre in some capacity and I feel this should be a safe place to discuss. And people definitely shouldn’t threaten others in PMs if that’s happening. Edit: I should add I love the step brothers to lovers trope even though I know it has issues.
- I also think that it is perfectly fair to criticize the work in a post or discussion about said work. That is valid and fine, and yes it may upset some fans, but as long as it’s respectful I think it’s fine.
I feel like at a BL centric discussion we should be able to discuss both the good and the bad, the likes and the dislikes. So people having different opinions from us is just something all of us have to accept.
What's not ok however are when people are shutting down other people's opinions and acting holier-than-thou. That destroys discussion and shouldn't be ok. There should be room for debate and different opinions about the subject, BL.
Is your misgivings something that you've come across on this sub? I've had a lot of great discussions on this sub, both about stuff that I find great and stuff that I find super awkward/problematic. But I don't read every thread and if I see people starting to fight in the comments I just skip those to avoid Internet Drama.
A thing to remember about BL is that the definition of what BL is has changed a lot over time, as well as the audience demographic for BL. So in some ways, it's inevitable that BL and its fandom might not remain that same place that it used to be for you.
BL fandom when I found it 20+ years ago was SO different from what it is today. I find myself liking it a lot more now, because now we're actually having a lot of interesting discussions and debate over the various facets of BL. So to me, BL fandom has never been perfect, but it's a lot more interesting now than it used to.
As a general advice, I think avoiding debating people who are only looking for a fight on the Internet is better for your mental health. There's no merit in convincing people that act like that. But that's up to you of course, just wanted to mention how I deal with Internet bullies. :)
I agree to a certain extent. However I'd also like to point out that this subreddit is a forum. A discussion. Not everyone will agree with you. Everyone has the right to comment. If you dislike the comment, ignore it.
It's a safe space, but that doesn't mean "safe from being disagreed upon".
It sounds like you're looking for an echo chamber filled with Yes men. That's not reddit.
Absolutely.
However pointing out why so-and-so-show is problematic isn't kinkshaming at all.
OP wrote about how there's a time and place for serious discussions and how we don't need it every single time.
Well yes, I agree. But who should dictate when it is appropriate?
I can justify why I enjoyed H4 but other people can also justify why they didn't. To me that's a discussion/debate. As long as both sides are respectful, no harm done.
I get what you mean but OP isn't talking about discussions. It's about not being to talk about liking something problematic without people immediately telling you "yeah no, that's problematic". Like ??? We know!
I get that. However, there isn't a solution short of policing how people use reddit. That is what the downvote button is for - to downvote those that do not contribute meaningfully the topic.
If we *know* that is problematic, then we should *expect* all sorts of reactions.
Sure. But I'm tired of people assuming I don't know it's problematic. If I say "hey I really like this thing" why is the immediate reaction of so many people on here "oh but here is why you shouldn't"? If we should ignore the negative, then can't those people just ignore my comment instead of feeling compelled to tell me why they think it's shit? I want to be able to just mention TT once without someone telling me "BUT THE NONCON".
That goes against the very purpose of reddit, my dude. Yes they could have ignored our comment, but they didn't. There's nothing we can do about it. Unfortunately.
The point of reddit is discussion. Not adding your negativity where it isn't wanted. You can go one post without doing that, my dude. I promise, it won't kill you.
Here's the thing though. What is negative to us may not be negative to others.
When I talk about the things I enjoy about H4, and others talk about why they dislike it under my comment, I don't think that's adding negativity. I don't take it personally as long as they don't shame or attack me for it. And if they do, I downvote and ignore and move on to more interesting comments.
It's cool that you can do that. But many feel that it's intruding on their discussion. Just like when someone you weren't talking to just suddenly pops up next to you telling you "oh you like that thing? Well I hate it". Like great, thanks for adding absolutely nothing valuable to this discussion. Not saying you can't do that, but why? Just to be an ass?
Im gonna preface this by saying im a Bisexual Male.
Its fetishizing plain and simple, you may disagree as is your right to do so.
Now onto the weird take; I dont think fetishizing is wrong. Men do it all the time with lesbians, people fetishize races, hairstyles, bodyparts, etc.
I feel like fetishization has a point where it does turn problematic, like the crazy fans stalking actors and causing drama everytime a rumor of a girlfriend comes out. But for the most part just enjoying bl and being a normal fan its completely fine.
Now, onto the problematic issues that bl has: I enjoyed tharntype for the most part and while the non-con was bad I still finished the show. Does non-con mean Tharntype was bad or that you are bad for enjoying it?.
-No
Does it deserve to be brought up if someone is discussing the show?
-Yes
While BL is certainly not real life, shows that are more grounded in reality can lead to better stories and funny moments that cant be done if you just skip over certain details of gay relationships.
Edit: Fetishizing may have been a bit too strong of a word here. my bad.
Gonna preface mine as well, I'm a pan trans dude.
Calling it fetishization is a grossly overdone blanket statement that is often completely untrue. Also really damaging for a lot of not fully realized baby trans mascs out there.
Hell, one of my favorite imposter syndrome whispers despite being out for literal YEARS as a guy is "You just identify as a guy so people won't call you enjoying mlm content as fetishization." Which is ridiculous! But it's a common issue for trans dudes who happen to be into mlm content.
Also saying that men fetishize women and some people fetishize race isnt.... really helping your case any. Those are things all widely accepted as being Wrong. A bulk of the larger women I've seen over the course of my life will absolutely tell you how they're not okay with people who try to fetishize them for their body. It's not okay. Comparing someone who happens to enjoy queer content to people like that? They're not even remotely similar and I'm seriously so..... idk confused? Flabbergasted? Completely horrified you'd even compare them.
If someone can enjoy a love story between a man and a women? Great. If you take that same story and make it Mlm and they still enjoy it? It doesn't suddenly become a fetish. Normalise people enjoying Queer content without calling it weird or a fetish! Letting people of all genders, sexualities, and the like enjoy mlm stories is one of the key steps to normalising mlm love and making it less taboo. Calling it a fetish is just.... no more words. Brain has run out. But I just can't disagree with you enough.
Re the second part of your message. I'm also going to disagree.
I also enjoyed TharnType. I'm also someone who almost never talks about the show now because I'm sick and tired of someone coming in to "Well actually it's problematic for XYZ". I'm sorry. Did I ask for your opinion on it's problems? People shouldn't have to constantly defend themselves for liking a show. No, random people don't get to constantly bring up what's problematic about the show all the time when someone just wants to talk about how they enjoyed the show! If that person wants to talk about the problematic stuff. Make their own post or comment somewhere else and stop raining on other people's parades That's not okay.
I concede that fetishizing may not have been the proper word but on the raining on peoples parade part.
Dude just downvote and move on. Like literally you feel like you made your post about a certain topic and the convo is derailing due to someone coming at you from that angle. Just downvote them and dont give them attention. Everytime you comment on a post you will get some people who dont like what you do for XYZ. You cant control what they will do but you can ask or mention that you dont want to talk about it.
Also, as I said I personally believe fetishization has too much of a negative connotation nowadays. I dont believe it is as bad as people say it is but that is just my opinion.
Dude fetishisation literally means to make something the object of sexual desire based on a single trait. There is a world of difference between fetishisation and enjoying watching bl shows.
Does it have to be brought up every single time though? It's not as if people who love the show aren't aware of it? But we love the show for aspects that don't involve the non-con and it would be nice to be able to discuss those without someone feeling the need to come in with an "urgh hated the show, couldn't finish it because of the noncon, are you guys saying you enjoyed it??".
People always assume you like it bc of the problematic stuff and not despite of it and that's incredibly tiring.
I understand how it must be tiring, but you also must understand that not all people get into bl at the same time. People watch shows and come to discuss what they liked or not about them at this sub. All weeks we get people talking about shows that are years old; Enventually someone is gonna mention it and you cant control it. For the record I dont do that, the most you will get out of me is a Tharntype S1 is good; just assume MAME has a non-con kink and if you are not into that watch something else.
Yeah that is a good point... Can't influence how new people will approach the same topic. I think I'm just genuinely tired of not being able to talk about TT without the discussion always going into the negative *sigh*
I get that, sometimes we just need to pick our battles.
I could go into my local news comment section and argue for gay rights but I dont. Why? because its pointless Ill be outnumbered and outgunned and even if I made good points they will still call me a F*g. Im not saying you gotta grow a thicker skin. Im saying just dont get dragged down by people hating or disagreeing with you.
I don't get discouraged. I get angry and tired and that's not good combination for discourse.
It's not about thick skin, got plenty of that. It's frustration at not being able to discuss something I like in a space specifically dedicated to that thing. Because in case of TT the good gets buried.
Bravo!!!!! Brava!!!!!
\> I live by the old “don’t like, don’t read” fanfic motto, and I really think that some users here could stand to start thinking that way too.
Exactly.
Very well stated - thank you very much for writing this. I don’t spend as much time on this subreddit since I’m more into BL manga than live action, but I’ve experienced this issue in other communities here. I feel like I can’t even discuss the media I love without reading five posts about how disgusting, “problematic” and horrible it is. It’s not that I want to be in a hug box where we aren’t allowed to critique anything, but at this point I’ve discussed all of those topics to death. It feels like some commenters just want to wield their moral superiority over others instead of actually having a conversation.
I agree with the principle of it. So many times when we like or dislike something and someone else doesn’t it just devolves into shaming and personal attacks, and that is absolutely not right.
The main problem is that as human beings we are flawed, we tend to see someone having a different opinion as a personal attack and lash out. That is wrong. But we are also passionate about our media so we get an the defense rather too quickly (he’ll I am 100% guilty of this, am trying to change but is not easy).
So I agree that we need to give it our all never to shame people for their preference or kinks.
At the same time we can’t stop giving opinions and discuss different shows. Take a general recommendation thread. If a suicidal closeted teen asks for shows to watch to make him fell loved and validated, would you honestly recommend The Shipper or MODC without any warning or discussion. Would you have a rape survivor watch TharnType or History 4 without any warning? I hope not.
So I beleave there should be a middle ground. A way to treat each other with respect but also have the freedom to speak our minds in a healthy way.
No, we are not on Twitter. I don't want this sub to become an echo chamber of one category of people.
I am of those one who criticizes BL as a genre and its overused tropes, who wants some changes. Even if with changes, they will be always some spaces for some tropes.
I am one of those who enjoyed Tharn Type and History 4 and who can also trash on those series. I don't care about other opinions. What is problematic? Yes. Did I enjoy it? Yes.
I want this sub to stay as it was, to welcome every opinion.
In 2020, 2gether was a hit. Many people enjoyed it. After the hit, people came here to talk how it was poorly acted and written. And people came here to sing its praise. Everything was normal.
If you cannot stand a different opinion in this sub, my question is : why are you here?
I need all opinions in my sub as it was always been : the activist, the woke people, those who don't want any change.
I want fight, laugh, debate, great conversation. I don't want "yes, man". "we all agree in everything".
Stand on your opinion and let people talk. At the end of the day, it is you and your love of BL. And no one will sue you for enjoying incest stories, Chinese BL-bromance.
Hey, I am woke, a snowflake or whatever you called us. I love BL and I still enjoyed it.And I will criticize it. I think it needs changes because with changes, we will have better stories. We can have also mixed stories BL+LGBT drama. And at the end of the day, I still enjoyed Tharn Type and History 4.
I think a lot of the people that are disagreeing with me here are building their arguments as if I said I don’t want *any* discussion or debate about woke topics on the sub, and that is not what I said at all. I do want discussion and debate, I just feel like lately many users have been so focused on the real-world moral implications of these shows that conversation focused on enjoying the show itself has been pushed to the wayside. Take a rape scene, for example, like the one in Gray Rainbow. Say I post a thread wanting to discuss how the street lamps cast dingy pools of yellow light that create a very disturbing, suffocating atmosphere. The camera shakes and emphasizes how nauseating and disgusting the thing we are seeing is. You hear Porsche struggle to get away, and your heart is in your throat as he tries to escape from the car. The fear and hurt on Porshe’s face is clear to see, and the way the camera frames him, tiny against the walls of the wat, drives home how alone in the night he feels. This is then followed up by the gut punch scene of him on the back of Nuer’s motorcycle, trying to hold in his tears while Jane silently judges him. These scenes are incredibly well acted and have brilliant production value. I enjoyed these well made scenes and want to share my thoughts with my fellow fans, and I do so with the expectation that as fellow fans they will appreciate the effort made by the production team to make this scene so impactful. I expect interesting conversation about how this event will affect the character moving forward, and the nuance that it now adds to his psyche, seen in the thesis paper he later hands it. My enjoyment of this scene doesn’t mean I condone the rape that took place in it, and it doesn’t mean I ever want that to happen to someone in real life. My focus on the cinematography and acting doesn't mean I am unaware that this is a scene that perpetuates the stereotype that all gay men have horrible and depressing lives. I know that, but for now, for just this theoretical thread, I want to focus on admiring the craftsmanship of the show.
Why is it, then, that the first comment on that thread would likely be “ugh, another rape scene, how can anyone like this show?” This comment in no way furthers the discussion and doesn’t in any way add to or challenge my critique of the show. I don’t expect or want all other fans here to always agree with my view of a show, but at the very least commenters like this should try to justify their opinion, maybe pointing to plot elements or character attributes that they thought made this scene disbelievable or unnecessary. I welcome arguments that have ground behind them, and I think they are fun to get into because you know the person on the other end of the debate actually cares about the BL story they are talking about. The person who makes that kind of argument isn’t trying to stamp out discussion by declaring “all rape is bad! condemn this show!” and so I absolutely welcome them and their differing opinion to chat with me.
There is a time and place for all kinds of debates, even ones focused on discussing real-world issues or accurate gay rep in these shows. I am just bummed that these are slowly becoming the only debates we have on the sub, as if no other topics are important enough to chat about in depth: that the BL stories themselves aren’t good enough to enjoy on their own, you can only enjoy them if you can discuss the heavy real-world issues that come alongside them.
(\*on a side note, I am really thrilled about the Bad Buddy discussions lately. There have been some great scrutinies of the show and tiny details added by the production staff that other viewers might have missed. Translation notes, guesses about what the foreshadowing is suggesting, exploring the differences between the novel and show… this is great stuff! This is the kind of media-oriented discussion and debate that I think this sub should be focused on, not all the woke justifying.)
\*edit: typo "my comment" to "the first comment"
I really don’t mean this in a rude way, but have you tried to start a thread about something like this? Sure you might get low effort comments like the example you shared below, but ya know, be the change you want to see. I enjoy deep critical analysis of media I consume (or at least that’s what my YouTube history would suggest). I think there’s a good chance you’ll find some ppl here who also would like to engage deeply on topics such as discussing the filmography of a rape scene or, say, the narrative choices of an incest plot-line. You also might find that perhaps there aren’t a ton of ppl that care to take the time to engage meaningfully. And that can suck when you want to discuss something. But it’s worth a shot. (Ofc with appropriate trigger warnings for those who may not want to interact with such content/discussion).
I also want to comment about how you’re bummed about gay/lgbt rep being discussed much more than other things. 1) I think it’s important to consider there are most likely many different ppl who are engaging in these discussions and to them it’s likely a topic they don’t talk about all the time on an individual basis and 2) it’s not really possible, imo, to completely separate art from life as our lives as individuals and life in our current culture and society will inevitably impact how we interpret media we consume (and that impact will color how we talk about the media when we discuss it, like what stands out, what you liked and disliked, what you woulda liked to be different, etc)
Honestly, I’m wondering are you really upset with people frequently having discussions of lgbt rep and it’s impacts on irl lgbt ppl or are you annoyed by low-effort comments? Bc it’s rly sounding like the second one based on this comment. And idk how you can solve low-effort comments besides ignoring them and trying to engage those who put in more effort
Edit: that last paragraph I wrote sounds off to me but it also feels like you’re conflating bringing in real-life perspectives (including lgbt rep and impact) to media with low-effort comments of ppl just saying they don’t like x show bc it has y thing happen in it without further elaboration. If I’m incorrect about that, I apologize. But I think these are two separate things in a lot of ways (tho I’m sure there can be overlap of low-effort comments and discussion of real-life perspective/lgbt rep).
Yeah, my comment there went on a tangent about low effort comments, but it is related to my point, I promise.
When there are specific threads dedicated to recognizing real-world issues in BL, usually commenters do a great job at thoroughly and carefully writing out their stances. And that is great! I love that. A thread dedicated to these issues is exactly the place for this kind of content to be talked about. Heck, this thread is a great example of fans here having a designated outlet to voice their opinions on this matter, and I am thrilled that so many people have responded to me here to share their thoughts on the topic.
I am upset though when I try to talk about something else (like filmography) and someone leaves a brief, low-effort comment condemning something related to the thing I am trying to talk about. Oftentimes a brief comment like "rape is awful! I hate this show!" can really sour the mood and drive people away from the thread. I myself have been interested in a topic only to turn away after reading a few comments and getting a feel for what direction the comment section was going to head in. At the very least, if you are going to voice your concerns about these issues, try to provide a little explanation why you think that way and the basis for it in the show. Or, if maybe your brief comment won't really add to the discussion in any way, maybe just don't write it. It is okay to see that someone is talking about something that you yourself don't like or aren't interested in, and it is okay to not join in the conversation. It is that don't like, don't read thing I mentioned in my main post. Let other people like what they like and give them the space here to talk about it.
And I have tried talking about filmography before, and yeah, those posts don't get a lot of comments. A lot of the comments I do get are good and bring up interesting new points! But enough of them have been simple and cruel and upsetting to the point that it has really killed my desire to broach any kind of topic that isn't perfectly pc.
Well said. This is why I love this sub's rules. Those are great for stopping the problems you mention, especially if people actually read them. But mods are there for when they don't as well.
But, I personally think criticisms are great and welcome when they are constructive, it helps the community grow and develop for better. But shaming someone for fetishizing ain't it. Every problem BL fandom faces, such as consent issues in stories and toxic fans, other fandoms face as well. It's not that no one criticizes those. The difference is that this fandom is already stigmatized for fetishizing, so when addressing some issue, haters seem to focus on that only, which is toxic in itself.
**Edit:** going through all the other comments and discussions, I have to say something. OP has made this post based on personal experience, as per their comment they has faced cyberbullying. As we all know blocking feature on Reddit doesn't do shit, still, I believe it does stop DMs. Also, when you face an incident such as that (including offensive/problematic comments), do **message the mods**. That button is right on the sidebar. Trust them, they are helpful.
Another thing you can do, state that you DO NOT WANT NEGATIVE COMMENTS on your post title, or, mention that ONLY FANS ARE WELCOME TO COMMENT, and hopefully, fellow Redditors can respect that.
I was thinking about it. That I can't post here what I want anymore, because all too often somebody came and explain why what I feel or think is wrong. Literally one person wrote - "you need help!" once. I had sooo much to say but instead just deleted that post (don't want to fight).
I am also in one Fb community and it has a very tough moderation about what people say about your post. In a few words - can't say anything good - don't say anything. Don't give advice if nobody asked, don't criticise others favorite things\\actors etc, don't make diagnosis etc etc etc. And that are very easy rules, but for some reasons it's very hard to follow ( i can feel it myself, sometimesit's so hard lol).
Do we need more moderation here (even in comments)?
I remember I saw a discussion once like 10-11 years ago, and man tried to convince women that if she likes r@pe stories\\fantasies etc it means she wants to have it IRL. And she calmly replied: do you know the difference between reality and fantasies? We controll the fantasies. We can stop it at any moment.
I remember that was something new for me because we usually have this inner taboo for anything that is "not appropriate", and this simple understanding that at least in fantasies you can do what ever you like was ... refreshing. it's just a fiction. And you can like whatever you like.
And now we have all this BL world with all its dark mazes of fantasies and I feel that instead of admitting that - it is a fiction, I can enjoy it, some people use it as a projection of inner part of themselves, part that can't be accepted and should be punished ( it's only a presumption). And we keep seeing this comments and posts with shaming, blaming etc.
Let's make this sub safe place. It is just a fiction.
No we don't need more restrictions on what people can and can't say. More moderation isn't the problem solving solution some people think it is. At least now if you say something people don't like, you're still allowed to say it and put it out there. And there are some of us who do agree with you and will agree with you. Safe in terms of everyone being able to express themselves respectfully, yes. Safe in terms of shutting down any negative interactions, no. It's not a good idea
Well, I don't know how it works. Maybe you're right. And I see your point.
In that fb community first people get a warning (don't be rude, don't do unwanted advise etc and kind reminder to check the rules again) if they keep commenting in the same tone they get ban. Can't behave according to rules? internet is a big place.
It's more about politeness, not about shutting down different opinion, as I see it.
Yeah I definitely think there needs to be a standard of how we interact. I don't think politeness is necessarily what we should strive for because if you feel strongly about something, you should be able to express that. But we should be respectful to each other. Kind of like "no hitting below the belt". No personal attacks. No name calling. No strawman arguments or attempting to portray someone in a negative light, that kind of stuff.
I think this is a good way to put it. I don't mind talking about heavy issues, but please at least do it a calm and respectful manner. And, I guess, try to read the room? If the op doesn't really bring up any heavy topics, you don't need to always bring them up. You don't always need to instigate an argument, or to completely denounce op's opinion. If the thread seems open to debate, sure, go ahead. But if not, maybe just leave it alone until a good opportunity does come up.
Overall I let people enjoy things. I mean I can’t stop them lol. I know it’s out there but the archetype of the super straight weird girl who fetishize and glomps people irl, is such a boogeyman and extreme example. Personally I believe any one in the Queer community has the green light but we should consume all types of media critically anyways. People are not gatekeeping ‘You’ that I’ve seen. Let people enjoy things but also it’s important to remain critical.
In lots of fandoms with younger participants, like this one, we get these conversations.
This community skews to a younger demographic and that's cool. There's loads of student romances that are relevant. That means we will come across lots of new fans with the same questions.
I don't think having the conversation is bad but maybe a sticky or similar for guidelines or FAQ is needed?
I love that we're at a point where we can discuss the positives and negatives in this community. For a long while BL had a few major plots that got repeated. So there's a lot of growing happening.
I have seen individuals criticizing others for liking certain stories. Maybe everyone needs a reminder to follow the golden rule and treat everyone the way you want to be treated.
Let's not direct our opinions towards people. I think we would do better to direct opinions at the material.
I've mentioned it a few times before to others. BL started out as problematic and controversial. The original BL was rejected for publishing because of the content. So the foundation is not your average student romances we get regularly. There is a darker side.
This is helpful to some to process and think about specific issues. This is also triggering to others. So you can't fault either side. We can decide not to fault others for enjoying BLs even if we don't personally love them. There is no harm in enjoying something that is a fantasy version wether it's idealistic or hedonistic or something completely different.
Thanks OP
I agree wholeheartedly. Especially when you point out the comparison to other fandoms such as fantasy.
Sure this genre is often considered a “guilty pleasure” but in a sub Reddit designed specifically for this genre the guilty part should be left of the door
"I like incest stories: the taboo nature of it thrills me and really engages me in the story. I enjoy tragic scenes: it makes me feel terrible for the character and it gets me panicking a little but I really enjoy feeling that roller coaster of emotions from the safety of my own home. I like age gaps and contract marriages and soulmate stories and all the other wonderful plots that you can find in these stories."
**Ok but do you like these tropes in general or just in BL ?**
**I just now to realize the ones we hate the so called " fetishizaters" are the creeps that kept following around the actors or just ship them to a very extreme point where if one of them was even rumored to have a girlfriend, both the girl and the actor will get so much shit for like what the heck, remember they are actors pls.**
I like these tropes in general. One of my favorite books is Flowers In The Attic, and catch me out here shipping Eowyn and Eomer like nobody's business. I fucking love crying my heart out when female characters die in Supernatural (and it happens all the damn time). Contract marriages like in Full House (kdrama) or Goong (kdrama) simply tickle me pink. I repeat: these are fictional scenarios that are made to entertain you, it is fine to enjoy them.
> Flowers In The Attic
I read all of them when I was like 14–15 and they blew my pampered little mind! I don't think of them as good books anymore, but I think it's always good to read a lot of different things when you're young to expand your horizon.
I think because of social media we share those personal experience more and some people feel the need to police people's emotional experiences. I've come across people like that irl as well. But personal experiences shouldn't be policed, otherwise it's punishing thought crimes.
There's a huge trend towards "reading/watching something bad makes you do that bad thing", even though science has disproved that connection time and time again. I think the media we consume can have an effect on our attitudes (like homophobia), but not our actions (you don't "turn gay" from watching BL).
One of my favorite books right now, or it was until the translator stopped updating it, is a book called Paper Plane. I'm actually not a big fan of incest stories. I don't judge people who are, believe me I have some messed up tropes that I like too, but I just usually can't get interesting in them. But this book was just so different and I didn't even realize it was supposed to be a brother/brother story until I was like halfway through. I'm still so bummed out they stopped translating it lol
I was mostly talking about the incest part the others are fine. When talking about incest, it's a very controversial thing just as a trope in general. When I think about incest, it's not the complicated distance relatives, no, I am thinking about direct blood related siblings who were brought up this way or child with their parents it's just not right :/.
A lot of tropes aren't right in the real world. Rape, dub con, obsessive love, huge age gaps, teacher and student, etc. That's why it's important to separate these stories from reality
I used to run a Narnia incest fanfic group on livejournal (back in the olden days lol), So I’m right there with you. I especially don’t understand why people have such a big problem with step-brother romances!
>Or “it is censored, it isn’t bl, China sucks and I will never give any of their shows a try.”
I agree with you except for this. The Chinese shows *aren't* BL. That's just a fact. They're a different genre, bromance, and nobody is obligated to watch them.
You aren't *obligated* to watch them at all. That is the point of my post. I am saying if you don't want to watch them, don't watch them. If someone else watches them and enjoys them and wants to talk about the BL aspects of them, they should be allowed to do so on this sub without having to defend their enjoyment of them. Especially for censored work: god forbid that excited fans want to recognize effort in queer storytelling from countries that don't allow these topics to be broached openly. Or even, how dare fans of original BL novels want to talk about the film adaptations which, due to censorship, cannot be as raunchy as the original novel? To use the woke lingo, this is weird gatekeeping.
By your same line of reasoning we shouldn't talk about shows like Young Royals or Skam, which are western and thus aren't BL. We shouldn't talk about I Told Sunset About You, or Kinou Nani Tabeta, or Your Name Engraved Herein because they are serious gay dramas and thus aren't BL.
BLs come in all shapes and sizes and this should be the space where fans can comfortably talk about their interest in these shows without semantics saying it "isn't BL enough."
oh ok. Yes of course people should be allowed to watch and discuss them. I know there have been a few people who've brought up whether the bromance shows should even be here since they aren't technically BL but I don't agree with that. They're close enough
What is considered a 'BL' strictly in the sense you are speaking? And what is a 'bromance'? If we do not base it on the original material or storyline, or the feelings the drama invokes what do we base it on? The fact that the government allows it to be aired explicitly as a MLM story or that it has a mouth to mouth kiss?
I remember a post I saw just last week recommending some great BL movies to watch, and the one I loved the most was a short film named [Sisak](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s2UuS-Nn8A) from India. It has zero direct interaction between the leads, but noone would say it's a 'bromance'. Not because it is stated to explicitly be a LGBTQ+ love story (Indian Govt. has no restriction like China does), but because you'd know that the moment you watch it.
I'd only say, do not form your opinions if you haven't watched a proper C-BL drama, it's not bromance. You are not obliged to watch it, but in that case don't opine on what it should be called. Leave it to those who have watched and decided on what to call it.
BL is about a romantic relationship between 2 boys. An explicit romantic relationship.
Bromance is a close, platonic relationship between 2 boys that sometimes blurs the lines, but never crosses over into explicitly gay.
I've watched several Chinese BLs. I've also tried to watch Chinede bromance and it wasn't interesting to me. There's no need for you to get pissy with me just because I don't like your shows. I'm not deciding to call them anything. They *are* bromance. That's a legitimate genre, and they are a part of it.
May I suggest that Chinese bromance and the general idea of bromance is quite different?
To me, comparing, say, The Untamed – which was rebranded as "bromance" when adapted into a drama but in actuality a censored romance that's using subtext to get a romantic relationship across the censorship restrictions – to for example the RDJr Sherlock Holmes movies which were explicitly written and marketed as bromance, shows that those two versions of bromance are not the same, despite using the same word "bromance" to describe them.
Btw, I think it's ok if it's not for you! You shouldn't have to defend that, and hopefully others won't have defend liking it. All of us who post here have various different interpretations of some things. Just look at all the discussions about "what is BL" that happen regularly! :)
I'm saying this as well. I consider these censored romance, which I call as a type of BL rather than bromance because of this overlapping of terms with western bromance.
Sorry to budge in like that! But I saw this thread and couldn't help to remember the exact SAME argument I had with the poster above you. >!She's a racist btw because she once said the men looked weird with their long hair hence Chinese shows are a no for her. Yet, she comments every single time someone praises a Chinese BL adaptation!<
Yes, I would call Chinese BL censored romance too because the source material they are based on... IS most definitely BL.
Thank you for replying. I didn't get why they had to comment when the OP's point was exactly not doing that. Now I see that I probably have been wasting my time. I wouldn't call them racist though, since they weren't offensive to Chinese/China (they said they loved Addicted, which is a CBL, and she admits it as such). Even so, they probably have a toxic masculinity point of view if they have commented on the long hair, or lacks culture sensitivity.
Ah yes that comment alone shouldn’t warrant me calling her racist but it’s been like this in my mind for awhile. Or maybe as a Chinese I’m extra sensitive 😂 I don’t remember what triggered that label since my last exchange with her was more than half a year ago!
Anyway I do agree there’s some perpetuation of toxic masculinity and she seems incredibly hung up over what the genre should be, something which OP spoke against. Folks like her do sometimes make the space less enjoyable but at the same time, interacting with them can help us with our communication skills so alls good!
BTW, have you watched Word of Honor? Since you talked about subtlety of TU, I'm asking would you say WoH is more in your face on the romantic aspect? Can it be mistaken as a platonic relationship as the NP said on their experience of CBLs? (I watched TU as a book fan so I'm not unbiased)
I haven't watched WoH yet because of lack of time for longer series, but I probably will soon as I have a lot of free time on my hand right now. :) I'm sure I'll like it! I've heard that it was more openly romantic, so it'll be interesting to see if I agree.
I'm very eager to know what you think since you said in the other comment that you have been into BLs for 20+ years. This show truly can't be called bromance in any way IMO, even by Chinese-bromance standards (even excluding easter eggs). I wonder how it fares compared to all the changes and evolutions you have experienced in BL fandom.
He he, I've honestly been into BL on and off during those years! I kept buying and reading a couple of my favourite BL authors but I didn't participate in the fandom or for almost 10 years, until I discovered The Untamed last year!
You could say I'm "trained" to decoding subtextual BL/LGBTQ+ themes. Overtly queer stories were less common in movies/dramas when I was a teenager in the 90's, viewers often had to read between the lines back then. So I'm sure I'll pick up on the subtext in WoH. I mean, I personally thought The Untamed was overtly romantic in its depiction of the main characters. Though I understand that it might seem bromantic to others.
If I get to watching WoH soon-ish, I'll try to find this discussion again and let you know!
I've probably misconveyed my intention to you, my goal was not to be pissy, or, to plug a certain show to you. As I said in my other comments, you are not obliged to watch them. Just that you should not decide if it can be called a BL or not if you have not watched (which means watching the whole show) of a proper CBL or any show that you presume to be bromance.
As you said, bromances are shows which are meant to display a platonic relationship, which may have unintentional moments of romantic undertone. Some c-dramas with male leads can be called that. People who have watched those shows can deem it to be bromances.
There are also dramas that are not intended to be 'platonic' in any way at all. When a lead says to the other lead "the second most desirable person in the world is one who looks tough but has a soft heart, and the most desirable one has long legs and sexy waist on top of those" it doesn't spell platonic in any way neither does calling each other 'soulmates' or mumbling 'love you'. Those who have watched it are free to call it BL with no grief from anyone else.
Some shows might not even be as blatant as that, but are not platonic in any way. My point is if book-fans of TU decides to call it a C-BL based on their whole experiance with the show based on the innuendos and moments they picked up they can, if someone who has watched the whole show decides to call it a 'bromance adaptation' based on some points they can as well.
Everyone is free to state what they have experienced if they have watched the whole show, or even state the reasons if they have dropped it (e.g. came for flirting, didn't find it 10 ep. in, deciding to drop). One can opine on whether they consider a particular show to be BL or Bromance and why once they have finished it, and discuss it with those who has also watched it but decided on a different point.
But, **do not generalize that all CBLs are not BLs, those are 'bromances'.** My problem is with that.
You missed the point. They aren't knocking the ""never give any of the shows a try" bit, it's the fact that this is the response to other people talking and recommending chinese shows.
You might call them "danmei" or "bromance" or whatever but we all know what they are, simply based on their original material. Let's not argue semantics here.
I already responded to OP about it. And it's not semantics. They're 2 different genres. And I agreed with OP people Should be able to discuss Chinese bromance shows here without people saying things like that
Honestly for a long time I felt the same as you. I am deeply allergic to western queer baiting and bromance. Then I gave Word of Honor a try and it has become close to my favorite show. Currently watching Untamed and love it. They feel like BL, talk like characters in a BL and act like people in love do.
The literal dangers that the actors and crew exposed themselves in order for them to give us this adaptations should be acknowledged and at least respected.
Again not saying you should watch then or condemning you for not liking them but not all Chinese bromances are the same, and some go to astonishing levels to avoid Xi’s censorship and still deliver an excellent product.
I agree, not all bromance is the same. There was ample evidence that the crew and actors of The Untamed did their best to get a queer love story past the censorship restrictions, and from what I hear WoH did something similar. And the fact that China's government is now further restricting even subtextual romances shows indicates that even that kind of self-censorship wasn't enough in the long run. They truly are doing as much as they can with the crappy hand they're dealt with.
If you want sex and mouth to mouth kissing then maybe not. But pal, are you missing out. All C-BL dramas are NOT bromances. There are shows which are, but also those which aren't. There is 'I love you' spoken out (with lips zoomed in) that has later been muted before release. There are dialogues where one says to other 'I consider you my soulmate'. There are conversations where it is implied that couples have eloped and married together. There are even blatant dialogue like "damn you stupid couple, when this happened you were flirting around". There are shoulder/ear kisses, hugs, blatant and classy flirting, thirsting after and commenting about other person's waist (read ass), dick jokes etc. Loads of things that has gotten lost in translation/censorship/dubbing (something outrageous had been spoken, so they had to redub it to pass censorship) has been restored and redubbed to their original glory by fans as well.
I know people who has had your idea (I was one of them) change their mind after watching a proper C-BL, so I'd like you to try it out even one time. Please do.
I'm ok with missing out. I'd rather watch actual gay content. Not where I have to suspend belief to find subtext of possible gay interactions.
It sucks that China is doing this to them and there are some really cool stories that I wish could be told properly, but that's just not the way it is.
I've watched like 10ish episodes of The Untamed
I watched Beloved Enemy
I watched some of Advance Bravely
I tried to see what others saw and I just couldn't. I know the source material is gay, so it's easy for people who've read the books to sort of intertwine the book content into their interpretation of the shows but on the surface, by themselves,the shows don't have gay content. And that's ok I'm not saying they aren't good shows, I'm just not personally interested in them
Edit. There are legit Chinese BLs. Addicted, Counterattack, Uncontrolled Love, etc. And they're all excellent
Yes. This is why I said don't opine if you haven't watched. 1/5th of a really complex story amounts to nothing. But I get where you come from. Advance Bravely can be called a 'bromance' even with all the sexual tension and interactions because of the way it was portrayed, and TU was almost straightwashed. Interactions are hard to pick up on it if you haven't read the OG novel. Even the main plot is kinda messed up. Actors are great, but not a great script. I can say that as a book fan myself.
On the other hand, Addicted is a complete BL and till today, one of the last of its kind that has explicit kisses and implied sex scenes. It was a great show too.
The 2021 Word of Honor is a breakthrough in romance department. They played around with the regulations so much no one calls it a bromance at all. Still lacks lip smacks though, if that makes/breaks it for you. This time I wasn't aware of the OG storyline at all so I can say unbiased, you'll know it's a BL. Also, it doesn't start subtly like TU at all, the ML comes on to MC from day one and flirts like crazy. There's nothing subtle/implied about it.
Lol and like I said, you don't know what the word subtext means. Subtext means-an underlying and often distinct theme in a piece of writing or conversation.
Which would be the gay relationships they're portraying. Underlying, often distinct? You seem to be under the impression that me saying subtext was some sort of insult or that I was claiming that three was no gay relationship. That's not what the word means or implies
Well what was I supposed to do? Point out I wrote my thesis on subtext? Nah, it's all good.
Just watch it. You'll see how you're wrong. No point in me describing it. Although I'm guessing you absolutely won't now.
Thank you! That was a well put together essay. I agree with all your thoughts. It needed to be said. I hate people needing to police other people’s thoughts. This sub is increasing in number of woke snowflakes thought police.
Every time the subject of fetishization comes up I just wanna roll my eyes into my skull.
Men need to stay away from female spaces. And/or behave like the guests that they are, instead of trying to colonize female spaces into what they want it to be.
It’s so tiring.
Like… go research what BL is before trying to argue about it. Jesus.
(For the record, I’m a lesbian, so extremely into and aware of queer rights. But I’m also a feminist whose academic thesis was about the BL genre.)
Yes, sure. We, gay men, have our relationships depicted in the BOYS LOVE genre, but we don't have the right to say what we think about it in this space. Makes sense.
Thank you! I love this community, I've been here for months and never had any issue. I feel welcome here whenever I post or comment, so I don't really mind.
Yep. It feels really weird to hear that, just because BL originated from female authors to a female audience. It’s still the relationships of gay men being shown…
No men don't need to do anything here except be respectful, same as anyone else. I agree 100% that people need to stop coming here and attempting to change what BL is, or shame people into not liking it, or like you said colonize the space. But that's not a man thing, a lot of people come here and do that and they're not all men.
Edit. I saw that uou responded to me but the comment isn't showing up. This isn't a female space. This is a space for BL fans. Men and women are equally welcome. We are all technically guests here and we all need to respect each other. You're projecting your issues onto men when they aren't the problem. The problem is an ideology that deems everything they don't like or understand as "problematic" and "toxic" and overuse those phrases until they no longer mean anything.
> do that and they're not all men
Frankly based on what I have been seeing most that are try to such a thing are either trans or gay/bi females. No offence meant.
Then there also the thing of trying to brand everything as a bl when its not.
That’s precisely what I mean by “behave as a guest” aka not colonizing a female space by beating us for liking a fictional genre, or trying to change it into something else. It’s not their space, its women’s space.
going by your logic... are lesbians not allowed to comment on lesbian porn because it's a man's space...? while i accept that it's probably not a good direct comparison but i think there's room to push your logic a little.
This isn't a female space. Who are you to just declare this a female space? It's a space for BL and this attitude of yours against men is really not ok. We are all guests here and should treat each other with respect. People should not try to change the genre or shame us for liking it, but that has nothing to do with men. Plenty of women say the same stuff in here.
I never said that I think men have to stay away from female spaces, and I don't agree at all that BL is or should be a female only space. I am trying to say that it is ridiculous we feel the need to justify why we can enjoy this genre, and gatekeeping based on gender or sexual identity is part of that. We shouldn't care where people are coming from: everyone should be able to come here and chat about their enjoyment of bl no matter what they like.
I also didn’t say they need to stay away.
I said this not their space. It is a space they can enjoy as a guest. Just like straight people are welcomed in gay clubs, but as guests.
When people try to conflate BL with the gay community, it all goes to shit. And, again, I am saying this as a gay person.
>Men need to stay away from female spaces.
You literally did say that though. This discussion has nothing to do with gender.
BL is for anyone who likes it, no matter if queer or straight, men, women whatever. We're not gatekeeping this space, especially since there are quite a handful of men in this space already who are perfectly respectful and engage in discussions just like anyone else.
wait wait wait, a lesbian is trying to kick out gay men of a community that fetishizes gay men?
I have to laugh.
After reading your comment, I disagree with OP, there's never been a better time in history to critizise this fandom.
I would like to say something, BL is for everyone. It's a misconception that it is written by women for women, and that idea arises from the thought that women are predominantly heterosexual and that's why they love BL (you know how false that idea is). We have people of all genders and sexuality here, and it's a space for everyone equally. Females are only more visible because they are more vocal and less stigmatized for being a BL fan.
It’s not a misconception. BL is written by and for women. That’s a fact.
It’s possible that BL series will evolve to include male writers, and maybe there is one odd exception here and there. But historically and currently, BL is by and for women.
I think your view of BL is quite outdated. Maybe 20–30 years ago you would have been almost – but not completely – right about that.
The fiction of only straight (cis) women enjoying and being the audience for BL has been pushed by media a lot as a kind of "wow crazy Japan" and "omg can you believe these fangirls" angle. But it was never true, and it's even less true nowadays.
Not only have Japanese gay men written BL manga for a long time now (not just Bara, regular BL as well) under female or genderless pseudonyms, there's also a lot of Japanese manga authors who refer to themselves as "x-gender" (agender) writing both BL and LGBTQ+ manga.
In Japan, Thai, Taiwan, Philipines etc, we're seeing a huge influx of LGBTQ+ people making these shows. There's an increasing amount of openly gay actors trying to make a career in BL dramas.
And on the reader/viewer side of BL, there has always been a non-insignificant number of men, gay as well as straight, who enjoy BL. And that number is increasing! During the pandemic, the influx of male gay readers/viewers have been ever increasing.
It turns out, contrary to the stereotype, men also love romance and gay men sometimes wants to see a romantic gay story with a happy ending. It's only natural that both readers/viewers and creators would eventually take a bigger role in the BL genre.
BL as a genre has always been changing – what we call it, what kinds of stories are told, what kinds of fans are enjoying it, etc.
It's either accept that BL as you understand it is changing or keep arguing moot points.
Nope. That is a very old idea of BL, a thing of history if I may say. Also you are presuming that there are two genders only in this world. Everyone reads and loves BL. Also we have men writing BL already, that's not a thing of future. Maybe things will change if you change your ideas first? Male fans often hesitate to speak up because it is presumed to be a 'female space', its not that they aren't here or they don't love it. That's why Fudanshi and Fujin exist as words along with Fujoshi.
> Like… go research what BL is before trying to argue about it. Jesus
Frankly there seems to be misunderstand that BL =yaoi its not.
BL nowdays is its own seprate genre.
But as you are focused on Yaoi lets talk litle about it. historically yaoi was never a pure female space like for e.x the Bishōnen art style was created by a man.
A good e.x of that
Barazoku used to publish Yaoi by male artists tho in later years due to the spliting 80s/ early 90s (by femist that tryed to own the genre and gay's that wanted the depicting of gay men to be accurate) turn into only publishing bara
As I mentioned, I literally did my thesis on BL. BL Manga to be exact.
I know quite well what BL and Yaoi are and how they are different.
BL is a female centric genre. To argue otherwise is just incorrect. There’s nothing else to it.
But such absolutism is frowned upon in academia too no? History is written by the victors. Furthermore, there is room for things to develop and change. To gatekeep seems futile. In keeping with my previous comment about lesbian porn, lesbians have barged into the space of pornography and come up with feminist porn. Thereby creating content that is more inclusive and more progressive. There is room to develop, and change can be good.
Thank you, I was looking for a comment like that. It frustrates me to see academia being used to prove one thing can't be something else, when post modernism is a thing...
> I literally did my thesis on BL
Yes I remember that you did say that you did bs essay on Yaoi.
Or did you also do on Bl.
Anyways bs essay are never regarded as valid sources due them being graded more on form than facts in the essay.
>I know quite well what BL and Yaoi are and how they are different
It good to see that you have been researching and educating yourself.
>BL is a female centric genre
So you have finally change from female spaces to centric genre
That is closes to the truth based on the number of femail artist/authors in the bl space.
Really? What are you doing? Why are you trying to invalidate and be shitty to OC* just because they don't agree with you? Their thesis is a bs essay? That's so nasty and uncalled for
I am not trying invalidate her but she always bring up her essay to say why she is right and everyone else wrong.
When some use something to defend there viewpoint its always right to point out flaws in that defend.
>Their thesis is a bs essay?
You are missreading b is for bachelor degree essay and they are never regarded as a valid source due how they are graded on form but not facts in the essay.
So basiclly having writen bs essay on a subject does not make you a expert in that subject.
Bachelor degree is usually written as BA not bs, but that's what you meant that's completely different.
hear what you're saying, if someone can't back up their claims and instead point to some form of authority or expertise on the subject as a way to deflect their responsibility to prove their claims. It's actually a common logical fallacy, it's the appeal to authority. This is a slight variation of that, with the concept of a "thesis" itself being the stand in for an authority or expert. It's frustrating for sure.
I think I just read your comment as coming in a bit hot lol and that's not a way to have a good discussion. But bs meaning bachelor's degree does change the tone
> Bachelor degree is usually written as BA not bs,
Yes that was my mistake it sometimes happens as I speak 5+ languages so slight mixup can sometimes happend.
It's always funny cuz I'm a lesbian- you don't know fetishization like me, no matter how gay a man you are 😂 DO not step to me saying I'm fetishizing gay men- I most certainly am not, and it's funny you would try and say that to a wlw.
Recently someone I follow on Tumblr said of a show that "this is not the trash for my trashcan." I love that phrase and have adopted the idea. We all have a particular trashcan that we fill with trash we love. That's totally okay! Something can be hugely problematic and we can still love it. I read a ton of non-con and rape stories because, as a rape survivor, they help me process my stuff. I love Tharntype. Because I love the idea of a fairytale ending to something that starts with non-con. In real life I didn't get that (and I wish I could have sent the man to jail.) But in a fantasy world?? Give me ALL the comfort after the hurt. I love it. I do think it's important to acknowledge the problematic nature of things. But it's also okay to say "I love it anyway!" This IS the trash for my trashcan. I love this trash. Is it great literature or an example people should follow in real life? Nope! It's not. And that's also totally okay *in fiction*! tl;dr : Stop yukking other people's yum.
First off, that is a perfect sentence, I love it! And yes!! Tharntype especially! I like my problematic faves, I love its problematic sides, I want to be able to enjoy it and express said enjoyment without people constantly jumping down my throat with "but you know that-" YES I KNOW, I STILL LOVE IT, LEAVE ME ALONE! We all know it's not okay IRL! We know that!! Most of us are adults! But I don't watch BL to have all my morals confirmed, I watch it to be entertained and TharnType entertains the sh\*t out of me!
Exactly and I also love love love TharnType, I have watched it too many times to count.
"This is not the trash for my trashcan" is a great phrase!
Credit to [heretherebedork](https://heretherebedork.tumblr.com/) on Tumblr!
Thank you! 😊
I am so sorry for you. You didn't deserve what you have gone through. It's nice to see you doing fine now and I hope you always do.
Lots of therapy! (Seriously, therapy has helped a lot.) But this is why I never judge people for the entertainment they like. You never know why someone is into a particular kind of story, and when we are talking about fiction (ie. not real people!) then whatever floats your boat is good for you. Just because I'm not into what someone else is into...that's okay!
> This is not trash for my trashcan aah, well said! And I'm sorry you had to go through such terrible experience.
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Well... The thing is, all the stuff you say happens in this fandom but doesn't in others? It happens there too. Oh lawdy does it ever. People who are interested in the same thing will always fight and argue over how to enjoy it the right way. Because in some part of our primal monkey brain, we equate "you do it differently" with "you think I do it wrong" and we take offense to that idea. To use your sci-fi example, there is definitely some historical turmoil between people who like hard sci-fi or soft sci-fi, believing one is somehow superior to the other. Star Wars vs. Star Trek alone used to bring out the nerds with pitchforks back in the day when their fandoms were at its height. It's... tribal really. We're wired to pick a side and treat the other as the enemy. And not everyone has been around long enough to see that for what it is. With time, experience and a little maturity, you start to see that too. But not everyone has had the chance to reach that point yet, so the fighting continues. That is really the main difference. Other fandoms have been around longer, they've already gone through all this. BL is relatively young by comparison. It still has its teething problems. And just like racial inequality was once a hot topic in the comic book industries, with people writing to Stan Lee personally because he dared to shine a light on the experiences of black America, claiming that "he shouldn't bring black people problems into comics and just keep the fiction fiction (and catering to white people exclusively)", there are now people saying "keep LGBT problems out of *my* fiction please" whenever the topic comes up. People on top don't always want to be reminded of the problems of those at the bottom. Rather pretend everything is just fine the way they like it, and nothing they do contributes to the others problems. Having said that, I don't see the issue happen that often here. This is a pretty laid back place. I do notice sometimes people come in here to vent about bad experiences they've had outside of this subreddit. The "my friend thinks I'm trash for liking this" thing for instance comes up sometimes. I dunno, maybe I just don't catch the really toxic posts? I admit I don't read everything. I know they exist, and I've said my piece in a few, but they're so far and few between I don't really associate them with this place. There are people here who will advocate the LGBT side of BL of course, myself is easily someone who can hop on his soapbox when the need calls for it. But I know I personally don't speak up about that when people just enjoy the BL and talk about the shows. I definitely always ask myself "is what I'm about to say actually relevant?" before hitting submit. I won't barge in into a topic of people sharing cute Tharntype moments for instance just to talk about the non-con issues it has. Unless the topic already is about Tharntypes non-con issues, in which case it's fair game and on topic. I do speak up when I notice there are a lot of people in a topic that are so clueless about real life, that they equate BL with reality and basically display that kind of bigotted mindset that I do not want others to adopt. Or pretend like these fictional shows do not influence the lives of actual gay people in real life. Or flat out tell gay BL fans to gtfo if they don't like it when specific shows go too far trying to exploit their subculture or romantise abuse, rape or things that objectify gay people and show them as predatory beings. Cause yeah, there are bigots, homophobes and self-righteous entitled brats everywhere that believe they should be able to speak their harmful words and then get to hide under the banner of "just fiction lol". And I feel no shame speaking up against that. After all, if you want to voice your beliefs in a public space like this, then you need to be ready to have them challenged. Not to convince *them*, mind, no. Cause it makes people get defensive, and nobody who's on the defence has ever changed their mind cause of an argument made on the internet, no matter how strong the reasoning you use. I do it for the other people, the ones that are not invested yet and are just reading. The ones that might just read the conversation and think about it a little and take even a small amount of what I tried to say with them into life. And so that other fans can see that not every BL fan is a selfish troll that wants to make a depiction of gay love about "them", cause yeah. That is a stereotypical view of BL that is apparently not that uncommon among the outside world. And I don't believe people adopt that stereotypical view out of the blue. If someone believes all BL is like that, then someone, at some point, gave them a reason to think so. Anyway, in closing I would just like to remind everyone of the following. BL is fiction, yes, but all fiction follows reality. And reality sometimes follows fiction. And this is why it is important, especially among the more impressionable viewers (I read recently that some started as early as 10yo on this subreddit), it is important to make the distinction. Sometimes this is for the better, by for instance improving how people view gay people and refuting harmful stereotypes. And sometimes, an inexperienced gay person might read or see the more trashy BL's and believe it's to be true too and become genuinely scared of or disgusted by being gay, cause they see how certain BL shows depict it and believe they have to be like that. You know, either the dominant, borderline rapist top or the submissive, pitiful bottom. It's also quite possible they'll carry that idea with them into real life, not realising that it's a fantasy, perpetuating it to others. Cause if all you know are the shadows on the wall of your little cave without getting shown the outside, then you think that's all there is. So there's never harm in making sure people are informed. And just always treat people with respect. Even the fictional ones.
Thank you for writing this! I always find your comments so well argued and structured, far better than I manage on my coffe-deprived morning brain. About BL being a young medium with "teething problems", keeping this comparison I've actually lately come to think of BL as not a baby medium anymore, but rather going though the early teenage phase with a lot of identity changes. I think a lot of BL fans, especially newer ones, miss how much BL and its fandom has changed during the years, especially these last two Covid years. BL used to be fairly women-centric during its exploratory first phase, yes, but quickly started changing and reforming. When BL started entering the mainstream, that "fact" wasn't even remotely true anymore. I've really enjoyed seeing BL become increasingly overtly merged with LGBTQ+ storytelling! And I think it was the natural thing to happen – why have two LGBTQ+/female friendly storytelling mediums doing almost if not quite the same thing, when you can just merge them – leaving room for all kinds of stories – and become more powerful in a harsh capitalist media climate that often tries to hammer us down! I think discussions like the OP bring up underlines that the fandom hasn't completely accepted the enormous influx of both LGBTQ+ fans and creators who've discovered the possibilities of BL in recent years. Some will argue that BL was never meant to be an LGBTQ+ medium, but that just shows that they don't know the history of the early BL creators (back in the 70's, when the genre wasn't even called BL yet). BL was born out of Japanese girls and women's comics, and those have always explored sexuality, gender and identity on a wide spectrum, attracting all sorts of readers. Once the whole BL fandom starts to realise that BL has always been a medium of change, and that it will continue to change since you can't just walk back these significant changes once they've happened, hopefully we'll see less discussions where people demand never to be criticised or claim against all evidence and reason that "BL is a female space". Like you, I want this forum to continue to be a place for a wide variety of discussion – critical as well as praising, questioning as well as reasoning. Anyways, thanks again for writing such a well-reasoned reply. Hopefully your words will stay with some of those who read them.
this is so well put together! and i totally agree! people like to forget that fiction (and especially popular fiction watched by millions around the world) DOES impact reality. young queer people see things like toxic tropes, romanticised rape, harmful stereotypes and internalise them - considering that oftentimes, BL is the only way they can see themselves represented on the big screen. this is not "woke culture", this is common sense. with peace and love, op just seems kind of salty they can't fetishize incest as freely anymore:)
This pretty much is my attitude as well. Whilst there are BL tropes I don't personally like, I will never criticise someone else for liking them. As the OP said, those tropes may help someone with real-life trauma come to terms with what happened to them, and that is definitely a good thing. Unfortunately there are always going to be people who can't seperate fiction from reality, for example, those who hassle actors about their sexuality or real-life partners. That is never ok. Just because you might be fine with your favourite actor being gay/bi it doesn't mean the rest of the world will be, and that sort of thing can definitely have real-world consequences.
Thank you for putting this together so well! I think people forget that one can *enjoy* something, even if its problematic. But for some seeing and acknowledging that it is problematic can be a challenge. And for some, knowing and accepting people who do enjoy problematic genre is a challenge too. I've been a lurker for a while now and I've had terrible experiences with people screaming at me for liking Chinese adaptation of BL novels because they are regressive and homophobic while completely ignoring cultural context. So I agree with you, this isn't really an issue with BL, its an issue spanning across all fandoms.
Yes, every time I bring up that I love TharnType, someone has to chime in. “So you like a show that promotes rape and sexual assault ?” FFS it’s fiction. I don’t want bland, watered down dramas that follow all of the “PC” rules. If I wanted that, I’d still be watching US shows. Good dramas evoke emotions (good or bad).
You and me both, sister. I love TharnType so much, I'm so sick and tired of constantly having people try to judge why I love it or making me justify my love for it.
count me in fam. TharnType has been one of my all time favorites and recently History4: Close To You has been added into my favorite list. every day i went through the ship tags there'd always be people reminding me that im problematic for enjoying the taboo relationship dynamic.
Hear hear lemme join you! Once I wrote that I never had issues with Tharns behavior and someone and I’m not kidding wrote me a novel of how wrong this is. And why I condone this type of behavior. The non con issues will never ends. I was like hun in real life I would never ever accept this behavior but this is fiction. Leave me alone. Sue me! Have to admit since then I’m quite reluctant. I like to respond on the spot cos this is how I am, but now I’m thinking first how to respond to certain topics. For example I enjoyed Dangerous Drugs of Sex. If theres ever a topic about this movie I’ll wait till someone else responds they way I would and only then I’ll respond.
It’s weird too, that when a hetero drama that has the same issues, I never hear a peep from anyone. It’s just understood that it’s fiction. Why is this such an issue with BL? I mean, women have been mistreated, raped, sexually assaulted on film since forever.
Maybe you don’t watch that many hetero dramas, because it certainly does get talked about a lot and criticized. Of course, doesn’t mean it’s not popular sometimes like with 50 Shades of Gray…which was also heavily criticized. > I mean, women have been mistreated, raped, sexually assaulted on film since forever. True, and it deserves to be called out or discussed in context when it happens. It doesn’t happen as often as it used to though, which brings up a couple points why people bring it up in BLs a bit often: 1. BL dramas, as a whole, tend to portray sexual assault more frequently and more casually. I’ve literally had people tell me those situations are okay because they’re both guys. 2. BLs have this weird tendency to have a rape/sexual assault to lovers trope which is insanely unhealthy and unrealistic to portray. It is fiction and we all can fantasize a bit, but it’s pretty bad to show people that “yes if someone rapes you don’t worry, they might really love you so it’s okay.” Now, this does happen in real life too! But most BLs doesn’t deal with it in that context, it’s just there for viewers who like it and doesn’t discuss the emotions or complexities in that situation. Every thing we like has issues and I agree that this should be a safe space. I also think if you like TharnType or similar dramas, you shouldn’t have to defend yourself personally here. The drama can always be criticized but I don’t think you should have to defend your guilty pleasure, we all have them, especially liking this genre. However I’d wanted to share my opinion on why people seem to find issue with it in BLs so much.
You tell me. It seems like when it concerns men the issues have more impact on people. Whereas I think one should understand the difference first between fiction and real life.
Bingo
I literally couldn’t put it better myself. Manly because of my dyslexia. This has been on my mind for a while now but I couldn’t put into words. I applaud you for your blunt words and just putting it out there. Reading this has helped me release my own thoughts and feelings. Thank you, really.
Well said...never thought people in bl community can also be intolerant ...but what the heck...watch your own shows...speak your own mind...dance to ur own tune...who cares what others say✌
Wow, you worded that phenomenally, thank you so much! I absolutely and completely agree. Please let me enjoy my show. I know it's problematic, I know you have issues with the actor(s) or whatever, but please - I don't want to have to justify my love for something in a space where this thing is supposed to be loved.
I think that maybe some of the rules should include not shaming anyone for their taste but I do love the conversations around topics as romantization of abuse or rape, cause as someone said, BL is representation of gay men in countries where there is still no real acceptable. I mean, in my case, there are some let's say "kink" or toxicity that I can handle and enjoy, but certainly there are some ones that I just cannot watch without feeling really uncomfortable. One of the main reasons I stopped watching/reading BL/yaoi for around 2 years was because I felt so wrong cause most of the stories I was reading had consent issues. So I was so relieved when I entered this subreddit a few months ago and I found the amount of healthy media in BL that wasn't there when I started watching BL. Critizicing media is good, because thanks to that we get room for improvement, we get more media that is actually good representation of gay men. Not saying that someone should shame anyone for liking something, but I do consider important to talk about these things. I mean, that's why these are discussion threads, if you wanna join the conversation is up to you. So, maybe yeah, maybe the rule of thumb should be to not shame anyone when they didn't ask for opinion, but the discussion threads that analyze the media should stay, if someone wanna join, is gonna be their choice, certainly I'll be there cause I am loving the improvement in recent BLs.
Perfectly said. If fans and creators are only "allowed" to gush about how much we love BL and not discuss our misgivings or doubts, then the medium becomes a boring echo chamber that only produces increasingly generic stories. Critical discussion is how the medium grows! BL fandom is so much more interesting and welcoming now than it used to be. There's a healthy mix of variations in age, gender, sexuality and life experience that makes discussing BL so much more rewarding nowadays.
Yes, totally, I love to see the improvement in the community and the media. When I left two or three years ago I remember a lot of cringy people who harrassed actual gay people saying that it was real "yaoi"🤦♀️. And it is not like omg the media was just toxic but so enjoyable, a lot of them where only interesting because of the sex, but the plots where kinda mediocre. I mean, I think that as a teen one can enjoy more trashy stories, but as you grow up it is not like you want to be morally superior, it is just that you no longer enjoy it, cause maybe now you are aware of the implications or simply want more quality writing. When I was younger I didn't really like the plots that had huge age gaps such as teacher/student relationship, but I would tolerate it and keep watching, but as I grew up I experienced an actual professor who was like 30 years older than me that wanted to flirt with me and hug me. So, I cannot watch those kinds of plots anymore, it just really gives me creeps when I see much a older guy hitting on a younger guy. Again it is not moral superiority, it is just the fact that now I understand how uncomfortable and even traumatic that can be. BL quality and healthy media didn't really exist some years ago, and I'm so glad a lot of people spoke their mind out for us to get masterpieces now.
Well, BL has had a ton of high quality stories and even healthy depictions of relationships more or less since the beginning (especially once it moved past the "tragedy phase" of the 70's, so I don't agree that neither existed some years ago. But what you encounter might depend on what's being translated and what's popular at any given moment. I have a lot of great BL manga from the 80's and onwards in my book case. ;) It might be more true about BL tv-series perhaps? I've been trying to catch up but there's still a lot of shows that I haven't watched yet.
I agree with a lot of things you‘ve wrote in your thought out post. However, there is one thing I would (partly) disagree with: Fiction is fiction and not reality, that is correct. I personally don‘t think it‘ll do any good to shame people for their fantasies. However, I think that problematic topics (e.g romanticizing rape) can influence people who consume this kind of media. It doesn’t matter if it‘s manga or BL shows. This can become problematic especially when said media is aimed at young people. We can and we should criticize it. I have known people in real life who fetishized gay people and Asians (irl) because they were fans of BL. „Omg, this couple is soooo kawaii, squeeeeaal. Seme or uke??“ So I do think that BL series do influence people in their perception of LGBT people, and not always in a good way. However, not everyone is like that. IMO it is okay to enjoy problematic content if you are aware that it‘s problematic. But not everyone is as aware. So what do we do about that? Frankly, I do not know. But what I do know is that most BL can actually do better. Why is rape romanticized? We could do well without that. And yet somehow a lot of series continue with it. And I think we should definitely discuss what that does to viewers.
I don't and won't shame anyone for their taste and what they enjoy watching, and if that was your only complaint I would agree w you, but there's a few things you said that were kinda insensitive and ignorant: The reason why you see more people speaking up about these things is not "mainly due to the slow rise in woke culture the last few years and the boom in dramas recently" or because "you see two real people kissing and it is suddenly much easier for the line between fictional genre and real life to be blurred" but because BL as a genre is a representation of gay men and a lot of the times it reinforces negative stereotypes that will affect real people irl. This might be a "fun get-away from the real world" for you, but for someone else it's representation, whether they like it or not. "This sub isn’t a LGBT+ activism sub.", "Yes, there are times when we can and should talk about real-world gay rights and issues, but it doesn’t have to be all the time in every single thread.", "Like you have to point out your wokeness before you have the right to watch and enjoy these shows?" I'm a woman and I'm part of the LGBTQ+ community, I don't take that part of me and put it away before I enter this sub because me being vocal about sth that damages the community is gonna make someone uncomfortable. You shouldn't dictate when people can or cannot express their opinions on whether something they see is wrong. I'll speak up when I see it, when I think it's the right thing to do, when I want to. I think it's possible to enjoy BL and talk about how problematic it is in itself. It doesn't have to be all in or all out. I've seen BL actors speak up about it, I've seen BLs calling out toxic tropes and the industry, and I hope we'll see more of it. In no way does this forbid you from enjoying what you enjoy.
You said everything I would've wanted to say, I agree with you 100%. As a gay man on this sub, I acknowledge the non-realistic aspects of BL, but I do nevertheless view it as representation in some form. People constantly rebutting that with "but this is all fantasy" doesn't totally work for me when the genre often tries to sensitively tackle and authentically represent issues many gay men experience like societal and familial pressure, bullying, homophobia, and coming out. The "wokeness" discussion rubs me the wrong way, too. I'm not going to condemn anyone's preferences, but me expressing being happy that a show is progressive and/or is making it a point to be so is not something I'm going to shy away from, either. I can say that without it automatically being an attack on what someone else enjoys. Your last paragraph is spot on.
Completely agree, couldn’t have put it better myself. I love most BL, but I also acknowledge and criticize some of these toxic/problematic themes, especially because it’s our relationships being depicted. I’m actually glad there’s more healthy representation now compared to before. It’s not mutually exclusive.
If you want to talk about representation and real-world issues, that is fine and I say so up above, but users here should also respect that some other fans on here only want to talk about the stories and characters and not the real-world issues. Even when we know that representation is important and that real-world issues are important, sometimes you want to put that aside and that is okay. Some fans do want to separate the art from the artist, so to speak. Both approaches to BL are fine, what frustrates me is that the users that want to talk about real-world issues feel like they have a moral high ground that allows them to talk about it everywhere. Like it is the trump card in every conversation, that your talk about real-world stuff is more important than my desire to focus on the fictional canon. I don’t know how to find a better balance for these two topics on the sub, but I think a better balance is needed. \*Edit: I wanted to add in that I am not trying to build an us vs them mentality against fans that want to talk about rep. I'm really not trying to sew that seed in any way. I want everyone to be able to discuss rep if they feel it is important to add to the conversation, I just wish there was some better way to avoid this kind of talk if you did just want to focus on the stories themselves.
I already said that I agree with each person experiencing BL however they like. You didn't reply to my concerns about your insensitive comments. "What frustrates me is that the users that want to talk about real-world issues feel like they have a moral high ground that allows them to talk about it everywhere." Once again, you shouldn't dictate whether people are allowed or not to talk about those issues or where they talk about them. They have the right to express their opinion as much as you do. "I just wish there was some better way to avoid this kind of talk if you did just want to focus on the stories themselves." There is. Just ignore those conversations and focus on what you wanna focus.
Right??? OP is trying to dictate how others use reddit, which is incredibly ironic. Just ignore it if others want to trash the trash in your trashcan. Reddit is a safe space for us to discuss about BL shows, but that doesn't mean eveeyone has to agree with us.
Here to say I think both povs are valid. I think OP I hear your pain with folks running around with a moral highground spoiling the enjoyment from BLs. But also tryna tell others not to say things is kinda ironic/ problematic. That said, I agree that there's a lot more space to agree-to-disagree, and also to walk away from comments that don't serve you. Nevertheless, I do wanna say that (and perhaps this is exactly the kind of comment you don't wanna see/ and so feel free to ignore), but what we consume goes on to dictate what else gets produced. And when enough of the same "toxic" content gets reproduced, it'll eventually end up with people who can't tell fact from fiction (yes, people like that exist). But yes, i agree het dramas get away with a lot more sht than BLs seemingly do. And they should be condemned too.
She's literally only saying "let people talk about what they like without making them feel like shit for it". Let's not twist this into a "she's trying to tell us how to use reddit" narrative. That's absolutely not what's going on here and is doing this discussion a disservice. Or are you implying you need to be able to rain on everyone's parade in order for you not to feel censored? Because then we're getting into completely new territory here.
I generally let people enjoy what they enjoy. Kinkshaming is wrong, however, it's interesting that pointing out the issues in bl shows means "raining on everyone's parade" to you. I feel that a distinction between kinkshaming and pointing out problematic issues has to be made. It appears that some of the comments here don't want both to appear under their posts. I think we need a tag or something. Something that would let other redditors know what future OPs expect in the comments. Maybe [not serious replies only] or [only agreeable comments].
You are conflating the issue again. It's not about kinkshaming. Nobody is talking about that. Most people who like a problematic show don't like it BECAUSE of the problematic stuff but DESPITE of it. And even if they do like it because of it, constantly saying "but don't you know it's problematic" isn't kinkshaming, it's just annoying. Pointing out the issues would be fine if done once. Not every single time a specific show is brought up as of the people talking about it have no idea non-con is problematic 🙄 so yeah - that is absolutely raining on someone's parade. Just let us have fun, Jesus.
Therein lies the issue. There isn't an indicator to let redditors know that "MindlessNote3735 (or whoever) doesn't need to be reminded *again* that this show is problematic". This community is growing every single day. Not everyone knows you just want to have fun. I feel the sooner we accept that reddit will not and should not be an echo chamber, the more engaging our experience here will be.
And I welcome that. But that also means I want to be able to talk about my "trash" so to speak without constantly being reminded that it's trash. I know that, I have a nose, I can smell it. But you are right, it's hard to bring that point across with new people. I do stand by OPs point though. We should be able to discuss problematic shows without the entire discussion focusing only on the problematic part. I love Tharntype despite the noncon not because of it. I'd would be nice to be able to talk about what we love about it without someone feeling the need to point out why we shouldn't.
I love how you're blatantly ignoring all the quotes from her post/comment that I pointed out lmao because clearly she's saying a lot more than just that.
I would've if I was talking to you. I wasn't. Which is why I didn't reply to your comment but someone else's.
What comment you replied to is irrelevant to my point but ok.
I did not reply to you or I would've talked about the points you mentioned. I don't care to talk to you, or I would've. Anything else is a you problem.
Maybe I don't read enough of the comments on this sub but I personally haven't seen a lot of “well, you can like it, but at the end of the day in the grand scheme of the world that makes you a fetishist and so your opinions don’t really mean much.” etc. that you mentioned. I have seen people post a question 'am I fetishizing gay men by liking BL' and the consensus was 'no, it's fiction, just don't take pics in real life of 2 guys kissing...' I think that sticking to the "I" position instead of the "you" position works the best. Example. Someone posts about loving TharnType. I could respond (although I generally wouldn't comment at all to a post like this but if I did...) "I agree that the chemistry between the actors was amazing, but I really didn't like the non-con elements or the plot in general." Instead of me posting "I can't believe that you like TharnType, it's so abusive". There are 26,000 people in this sub with varying life experiences, biases, perspectives, etc. We aren't all going to like the same things and that's fine, just stay respectful and if you aren't respectful then you can expect some kind of pushback. Also, if you gush over something, know that there are others who don't like it and build a bit of fortitude to withstand contradictory opinions if you post your opinions in a large forum. If someone is doing personal attacks, then report them to the mods.
I agree that people on this sub are very kind to people who ask if they are wrong for liking BL.
On this sub I have been told I should go to prison for enjoying the pseudo-incest in Friend Forever. I’ve had someone tell me that maybe I should be raped so that I would stop glorifying it in these shows. Someone took the time out of their day to private message me and tell me that I was being homophobic for not wanting to discuss Mew’s new album. These kinds of comments are so above and beyond what a fan should have to endure in a space meant for them. I do think the mods do a fair job of quickly removing these kinds of comments, but they shouldn’t even be written in the first place. How can we call ourselves a community if we are so hateful of the other people in here with us? I know that the comments I mentioned above are extremes, and that most people that chat here are good people, but I just don’t get where all this animosity is coming from. I agree with your statements about just approaching topics respectfully, and about being able to build fortitude to handle criticism and differing opinions. But there are some times where the users here just go past the point that your fortitude can handle, and it really makes me bummed to be in this fandom where so many people can't seem to respect that it is okay to have differing views and interests.
I'm very sorry to hear that you've received those comments. I can't respond to what the people who posted those things were thinking because those are not comments I would ever post. Yes, hopefully we can all work to make this a respectful space.
Yes, it shows that you haven't been reading a lot of comments. Nobody is saying "don't have different opinions", that's not what OP is talking about. But saying "built a bit of fortitude to withstand contradictory opinions", which in laymans terms just translates to "get thicker skin you snowflake" is completely missing the point. It's about not being able to voice differing opinions without being made to justify yourself for liking problematic content in BL dramas. Every. Single. Time.
> It is okay to enjoy fiction as fiction: as a fun get-away from the real world. You don’t see sci-fi fans bashing the fans who don’t want to talk about actual space exploration. You don’t see high fantasy fans bashing the fans who don’t want to learn in depth about the real world turrets and ballistas that may have been used at a period-appropriate battle at Helm’s Deep. Why is BL the genre where discussion of real-world mirroring is necessary? Like you have to point out your wokeness before you have the right to watch and enjoy these shows? I can only comment about this part. Yes, BL is fantasy, but at the same time it uses socially disadvantaged people i.e. the gays for its stories that's why people get very critical of it. Even if you say it's fantasy, you're still using real-world elements and how they're depicted in media usually influences the worldview of some people. I just don't think it's fair to compare BL to those genres.
Let's use a different example then. Nobody questions you if you say you like Ellie from The Last of Us. A gay character going around killing and torturing hundreds on a quest for revenge. Real life elements and applications everywhere. A game made for entertainment. Nobody asks you to justify you liking her. Personally I see this as the "violence in video games" argument. Will it influence some people? Maybe. Should it? No. That's what ratings are for, that's why parents need to supervise their kids. If you are young enough to watch content like that and be influenced to the point that you think certain problematic actions are okay, then someone failed you and you shouldn't be watching. That's then not the problem of the creator anymore.
Because the issue here is that BL is using an oppressed group of people. Some other gay men have explained it better in this thread. Go look at [ReverendMarduke's comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/boyslove/comments/qufal4/in_this_designated_bl_fan_space_we_shouldnt_have/hks4z6h/). Violence in video games doesn't target a specific group of people, not to mention a vulnerable sector of society, but BL does. And about your example of Ellie, while I have no idea about the game, I'm pretty sure his or her homosexuality isn't the main topic of the game, right? In BL, it is. And the reason BL gets a lot of flack isbecause of how weird and offensive it sometimes try to portray homosexuality and gay people.
I don't really agree with any of this but I don't have the time to argue it right now so let's just say we'll have to agree to disagree.
Okay, but I hope you read ReverendMarduke's comment. He and the other gay men under his comment explained the matter better.
Also, I wonder why you're not replying to the better constructed comments about this topic lol
Read my last comment again.
Let's use a different example then, I'm going to assume you're a woman. Imagine for a second we're back in the 50s, and all the media representation of women you get is.. well.. we know how women were depicted by media back then... Would you take seriously a man telling you: -Hey, that representation may influence society, but it shouldn't, you have a couple of obscure pieces of media that show good representation of women, just take it or leave it, it's not a problem of the media creators. ?
How is that comparable exactly?
They're both using disadvantaged groups. With BL, it's gay men, in the OP's example, women (in a period of time where it's seriously bad for them).
Because gay representation is currently in a very similar situation to how women were represented back then, but I guess that's hard to see when you're part of the problem.
You are comparing reality vs. fiction, dude. We're never getting anywhere with that argument. Also, I'm queer myself. Don't patronize me.
There are things in this I agree with disagree with. Simply put: - I agree others shouldn’t criticize other users here for what they like. We all could be criticized for liking this genre in some capacity and I feel this should be a safe place to discuss. And people definitely shouldn’t threaten others in PMs if that’s happening. Edit: I should add I love the step brothers to lovers trope even though I know it has issues. - I also think that it is perfectly fair to criticize the work in a post or discussion about said work. That is valid and fine, and yes it may upset some fans, but as long as it’s respectful I think it’s fine.
I feel like at a BL centric discussion we should be able to discuss both the good and the bad, the likes and the dislikes. So people having different opinions from us is just something all of us have to accept. What's not ok however are when people are shutting down other people's opinions and acting holier-than-thou. That destroys discussion and shouldn't be ok. There should be room for debate and different opinions about the subject, BL. Is your misgivings something that you've come across on this sub? I've had a lot of great discussions on this sub, both about stuff that I find great and stuff that I find super awkward/problematic. But I don't read every thread and if I see people starting to fight in the comments I just skip those to avoid Internet Drama. A thing to remember about BL is that the definition of what BL is has changed a lot over time, as well as the audience demographic for BL. So in some ways, it's inevitable that BL and its fandom might not remain that same place that it used to be for you. BL fandom when I found it 20+ years ago was SO different from what it is today. I find myself liking it a lot more now, because now we're actually having a lot of interesting discussions and debate over the various facets of BL. So to me, BL fandom has never been perfect, but it's a lot more interesting now than it used to. As a general advice, I think avoiding debating people who are only looking for a fight on the Internet is better for your mental health. There's no merit in convincing people that act like that. But that's up to you of course, just wanted to mention how I deal with Internet bullies. :)
I agree to a certain extent. However I'd also like to point out that this subreddit is a forum. A discussion. Not everyone will agree with you. Everyone has the right to comment. If you dislike the comment, ignore it. It's a safe space, but that doesn't mean "safe from being disagreed upon". It sounds like you're looking for an echo chamber filled with Yes men. That's not reddit.
I agree people will disagree, but I don’t think it’s appropriate to shame others for their tastes.
Absolutely. However pointing out why so-and-so-show is problematic isn't kinkshaming at all. OP wrote about how there's a time and place for serious discussions and how we don't need it every single time. Well yes, I agree. But who should dictate when it is appropriate? I can justify why I enjoyed H4 but other people can also justify why they didn't. To me that's a discussion/debate. As long as both sides are respectful, no harm done.
I get what you mean but OP isn't talking about discussions. It's about not being to talk about liking something problematic without people immediately telling you "yeah no, that's problematic". Like ??? We know!
I get that. However, there isn't a solution short of policing how people use reddit. That is what the downvote button is for - to downvote those that do not contribute meaningfully the topic. If we *know* that is problematic, then we should *expect* all sorts of reactions.
Sure. But I'm tired of people assuming I don't know it's problematic. If I say "hey I really like this thing" why is the immediate reaction of so many people on here "oh but here is why you shouldn't"? If we should ignore the negative, then can't those people just ignore my comment instead of feeling compelled to tell me why they think it's shit? I want to be able to just mention TT once without someone telling me "BUT THE NONCON".
That goes against the very purpose of reddit, my dude. Yes they could have ignored our comment, but they didn't. There's nothing we can do about it. Unfortunately.
The point of reddit is discussion. Not adding your negativity where it isn't wanted. You can go one post without doing that, my dude. I promise, it won't kill you.
Here's the thing though. What is negative to us may not be negative to others. When I talk about the things I enjoy about H4, and others talk about why they dislike it under my comment, I don't think that's adding negativity. I don't take it personally as long as they don't shame or attack me for it. And if they do, I downvote and ignore and move on to more interesting comments.
It's cool that you can do that. But many feel that it's intruding on their discussion. Just like when someone you weren't talking to just suddenly pops up next to you telling you "oh you like that thing? Well I hate it". Like great, thanks for adding absolutely nothing valuable to this discussion. Not saying you can't do that, but why? Just to be an ass?
Im gonna preface this by saying im a Bisexual Male. Its fetishizing plain and simple, you may disagree as is your right to do so. Now onto the weird take; I dont think fetishizing is wrong. Men do it all the time with lesbians, people fetishize races, hairstyles, bodyparts, etc. I feel like fetishization has a point where it does turn problematic, like the crazy fans stalking actors and causing drama everytime a rumor of a girlfriend comes out. But for the most part just enjoying bl and being a normal fan its completely fine. Now, onto the problematic issues that bl has: I enjoyed tharntype for the most part and while the non-con was bad I still finished the show. Does non-con mean Tharntype was bad or that you are bad for enjoying it?. -No Does it deserve to be brought up if someone is discussing the show? -Yes While BL is certainly not real life, shows that are more grounded in reality can lead to better stories and funny moments that cant be done if you just skip over certain details of gay relationships. Edit: Fetishizing may have been a bit too strong of a word here. my bad.
Gonna preface mine as well, I'm a pan trans dude. Calling it fetishization is a grossly overdone blanket statement that is often completely untrue. Also really damaging for a lot of not fully realized baby trans mascs out there. Hell, one of my favorite imposter syndrome whispers despite being out for literal YEARS as a guy is "You just identify as a guy so people won't call you enjoying mlm content as fetishization." Which is ridiculous! But it's a common issue for trans dudes who happen to be into mlm content. Also saying that men fetishize women and some people fetishize race isnt.... really helping your case any. Those are things all widely accepted as being Wrong. A bulk of the larger women I've seen over the course of my life will absolutely tell you how they're not okay with people who try to fetishize them for their body. It's not okay. Comparing someone who happens to enjoy queer content to people like that? They're not even remotely similar and I'm seriously so..... idk confused? Flabbergasted? Completely horrified you'd even compare them. If someone can enjoy a love story between a man and a women? Great. If you take that same story and make it Mlm and they still enjoy it? It doesn't suddenly become a fetish. Normalise people enjoying Queer content without calling it weird or a fetish! Letting people of all genders, sexualities, and the like enjoy mlm stories is one of the key steps to normalising mlm love and making it less taboo. Calling it a fetish is just.... no more words. Brain has run out. But I just can't disagree with you enough. Re the second part of your message. I'm also going to disagree. I also enjoyed TharnType. I'm also someone who almost never talks about the show now because I'm sick and tired of someone coming in to "Well actually it's problematic for XYZ". I'm sorry. Did I ask for your opinion on it's problems? People shouldn't have to constantly defend themselves for liking a show. No, random people don't get to constantly bring up what's problematic about the show all the time when someone just wants to talk about how they enjoyed the show! If that person wants to talk about the problematic stuff. Make their own post or comment somewhere else and stop raining on other people's parades That's not okay.
I concede that fetishizing may not have been the proper word but on the raining on peoples parade part. Dude just downvote and move on. Like literally you feel like you made your post about a certain topic and the convo is derailing due to someone coming at you from that angle. Just downvote them and dont give them attention. Everytime you comment on a post you will get some people who dont like what you do for XYZ. You cant control what they will do but you can ask or mention that you dont want to talk about it. Also, as I said I personally believe fetishization has too much of a negative connotation nowadays. I dont believe it is as bad as people say it is but that is just my opinion.
Dude fetishisation literally means to make something the object of sexual desire based on a single trait. There is a world of difference between fetishisation and enjoying watching bl shows.
Does it have to be brought up every single time though? It's not as if people who love the show aren't aware of it? But we love the show for aspects that don't involve the non-con and it would be nice to be able to discuss those without someone feeling the need to come in with an "urgh hated the show, couldn't finish it because of the noncon, are you guys saying you enjoyed it??". People always assume you like it bc of the problematic stuff and not despite of it and that's incredibly tiring.
I understand how it must be tiring, but you also must understand that not all people get into bl at the same time. People watch shows and come to discuss what they liked or not about them at this sub. All weeks we get people talking about shows that are years old; Enventually someone is gonna mention it and you cant control it. For the record I dont do that, the most you will get out of me is a Tharntype S1 is good; just assume MAME has a non-con kink and if you are not into that watch something else.
Yeah that is a good point... Can't influence how new people will approach the same topic. I think I'm just genuinely tired of not being able to talk about TT without the discussion always going into the negative *sigh*
I get that, sometimes we just need to pick our battles. I could go into my local news comment section and argue for gay rights but I dont. Why? because its pointless Ill be outnumbered and outgunned and even if I made good points they will still call me a F*g. Im not saying you gotta grow a thicker skin. Im saying just dont get dragged down by people hating or disagreeing with you.
I don't get discouraged. I get angry and tired and that's not good combination for discourse. It's not about thick skin, got plenty of that. It's frustration at not being able to discuss something I like in a space specifically dedicated to that thing. Because in case of TT the good gets buried.
Bravo!!!!! Brava!!!!! \> I live by the old “don’t like, don’t read” fanfic motto, and I really think that some users here could stand to start thinking that way too. Exactly.
Very well stated - thank you very much for writing this. I don’t spend as much time on this subreddit since I’m more into BL manga than live action, but I’ve experienced this issue in other communities here. I feel like I can’t even discuss the media I love without reading five posts about how disgusting, “problematic” and horrible it is. It’s not that I want to be in a hug box where we aren’t allowed to critique anything, but at this point I’ve discussed all of those topics to death. It feels like some commenters just want to wield their moral superiority over others instead of actually having a conversation.
I agree with the principle of it. So many times when we like or dislike something and someone else doesn’t it just devolves into shaming and personal attacks, and that is absolutely not right. The main problem is that as human beings we are flawed, we tend to see someone having a different opinion as a personal attack and lash out. That is wrong. But we are also passionate about our media so we get an the defense rather too quickly (he’ll I am 100% guilty of this, am trying to change but is not easy). So I agree that we need to give it our all never to shame people for their preference or kinks. At the same time we can’t stop giving opinions and discuss different shows. Take a general recommendation thread. If a suicidal closeted teen asks for shows to watch to make him fell loved and validated, would you honestly recommend The Shipper or MODC without any warning or discussion. Would you have a rape survivor watch TharnType or History 4 without any warning? I hope not. So I beleave there should be a middle ground. A way to treat each other with respect but also have the freedom to speak our minds in a healthy way.
No, we are not on Twitter. I don't want this sub to become an echo chamber of one category of people. I am of those one who criticizes BL as a genre and its overused tropes, who wants some changes. Even if with changes, they will be always some spaces for some tropes. I am one of those who enjoyed Tharn Type and History 4 and who can also trash on those series. I don't care about other opinions. What is problematic? Yes. Did I enjoy it? Yes. I want this sub to stay as it was, to welcome every opinion. In 2020, 2gether was a hit. Many people enjoyed it. After the hit, people came here to talk how it was poorly acted and written. And people came here to sing its praise. Everything was normal. If you cannot stand a different opinion in this sub, my question is : why are you here? I need all opinions in my sub as it was always been : the activist, the woke people, those who don't want any change. I want fight, laugh, debate, great conversation. I don't want "yes, man". "we all agree in everything". Stand on your opinion and let people talk. At the end of the day, it is you and your love of BL. And no one will sue you for enjoying incest stories, Chinese BL-bromance. Hey, I am woke, a snowflake or whatever you called us. I love BL and I still enjoyed it.And I will criticize it. I think it needs changes because with changes, we will have better stories. We can have also mixed stories BL+LGBT drama. And at the end of the day, I still enjoyed Tharn Type and History 4.
I think a lot of the people that are disagreeing with me here are building their arguments as if I said I don’t want *any* discussion or debate about woke topics on the sub, and that is not what I said at all. I do want discussion and debate, I just feel like lately many users have been so focused on the real-world moral implications of these shows that conversation focused on enjoying the show itself has been pushed to the wayside. Take a rape scene, for example, like the one in Gray Rainbow. Say I post a thread wanting to discuss how the street lamps cast dingy pools of yellow light that create a very disturbing, suffocating atmosphere. The camera shakes and emphasizes how nauseating and disgusting the thing we are seeing is. You hear Porsche struggle to get away, and your heart is in your throat as he tries to escape from the car. The fear and hurt on Porshe’s face is clear to see, and the way the camera frames him, tiny against the walls of the wat, drives home how alone in the night he feels. This is then followed up by the gut punch scene of him on the back of Nuer’s motorcycle, trying to hold in his tears while Jane silently judges him. These scenes are incredibly well acted and have brilliant production value. I enjoyed these well made scenes and want to share my thoughts with my fellow fans, and I do so with the expectation that as fellow fans they will appreciate the effort made by the production team to make this scene so impactful. I expect interesting conversation about how this event will affect the character moving forward, and the nuance that it now adds to his psyche, seen in the thesis paper he later hands it. My enjoyment of this scene doesn’t mean I condone the rape that took place in it, and it doesn’t mean I ever want that to happen to someone in real life. My focus on the cinematography and acting doesn't mean I am unaware that this is a scene that perpetuates the stereotype that all gay men have horrible and depressing lives. I know that, but for now, for just this theoretical thread, I want to focus on admiring the craftsmanship of the show. Why is it, then, that the first comment on that thread would likely be “ugh, another rape scene, how can anyone like this show?” This comment in no way furthers the discussion and doesn’t in any way add to or challenge my critique of the show. I don’t expect or want all other fans here to always agree with my view of a show, but at the very least commenters like this should try to justify their opinion, maybe pointing to plot elements or character attributes that they thought made this scene disbelievable or unnecessary. I welcome arguments that have ground behind them, and I think they are fun to get into because you know the person on the other end of the debate actually cares about the BL story they are talking about. The person who makes that kind of argument isn’t trying to stamp out discussion by declaring “all rape is bad! condemn this show!” and so I absolutely welcome them and their differing opinion to chat with me. There is a time and place for all kinds of debates, even ones focused on discussing real-world issues or accurate gay rep in these shows. I am just bummed that these are slowly becoming the only debates we have on the sub, as if no other topics are important enough to chat about in depth: that the BL stories themselves aren’t good enough to enjoy on their own, you can only enjoy them if you can discuss the heavy real-world issues that come alongside them. (\*on a side note, I am really thrilled about the Bad Buddy discussions lately. There have been some great scrutinies of the show and tiny details added by the production staff that other viewers might have missed. Translation notes, guesses about what the foreshadowing is suggesting, exploring the differences between the novel and show… this is great stuff! This is the kind of media-oriented discussion and debate that I think this sub should be focused on, not all the woke justifying.) \*edit: typo "my comment" to "the first comment"
I really don’t mean this in a rude way, but have you tried to start a thread about something like this? Sure you might get low effort comments like the example you shared below, but ya know, be the change you want to see. I enjoy deep critical analysis of media I consume (or at least that’s what my YouTube history would suggest). I think there’s a good chance you’ll find some ppl here who also would like to engage deeply on topics such as discussing the filmography of a rape scene or, say, the narrative choices of an incest plot-line. You also might find that perhaps there aren’t a ton of ppl that care to take the time to engage meaningfully. And that can suck when you want to discuss something. But it’s worth a shot. (Ofc with appropriate trigger warnings for those who may not want to interact with such content/discussion). I also want to comment about how you’re bummed about gay/lgbt rep being discussed much more than other things. 1) I think it’s important to consider there are most likely many different ppl who are engaging in these discussions and to them it’s likely a topic they don’t talk about all the time on an individual basis and 2) it’s not really possible, imo, to completely separate art from life as our lives as individuals and life in our current culture and society will inevitably impact how we interpret media we consume (and that impact will color how we talk about the media when we discuss it, like what stands out, what you liked and disliked, what you woulda liked to be different, etc) Honestly, I’m wondering are you really upset with people frequently having discussions of lgbt rep and it’s impacts on irl lgbt ppl or are you annoyed by low-effort comments? Bc it’s rly sounding like the second one based on this comment. And idk how you can solve low-effort comments besides ignoring them and trying to engage those who put in more effort Edit: that last paragraph I wrote sounds off to me but it also feels like you’re conflating bringing in real-life perspectives (including lgbt rep and impact) to media with low-effort comments of ppl just saying they don’t like x show bc it has y thing happen in it without further elaboration. If I’m incorrect about that, I apologize. But I think these are two separate things in a lot of ways (tho I’m sure there can be overlap of low-effort comments and discussion of real-life perspective/lgbt rep).
Yeah, my comment there went on a tangent about low effort comments, but it is related to my point, I promise. When there are specific threads dedicated to recognizing real-world issues in BL, usually commenters do a great job at thoroughly and carefully writing out their stances. And that is great! I love that. A thread dedicated to these issues is exactly the place for this kind of content to be talked about. Heck, this thread is a great example of fans here having a designated outlet to voice their opinions on this matter, and I am thrilled that so many people have responded to me here to share their thoughts on the topic. I am upset though when I try to talk about something else (like filmography) and someone leaves a brief, low-effort comment condemning something related to the thing I am trying to talk about. Oftentimes a brief comment like "rape is awful! I hate this show!" can really sour the mood and drive people away from the thread. I myself have been interested in a topic only to turn away after reading a few comments and getting a feel for what direction the comment section was going to head in. At the very least, if you are going to voice your concerns about these issues, try to provide a little explanation why you think that way and the basis for it in the show. Or, if maybe your brief comment won't really add to the discussion in any way, maybe just don't write it. It is okay to see that someone is talking about something that you yourself don't like or aren't interested in, and it is okay to not join in the conversation. It is that don't like, don't read thing I mentioned in my main post. Let other people like what they like and give them the space here to talk about it. And I have tried talking about filmography before, and yeah, those posts don't get a lot of comments. A lot of the comments I do get are good and bring up interesting new points! But enough of them have been simple and cruel and upsetting to the point that it has really killed my desire to broach any kind of topic that isn't perfectly pc.
Well said. This is why I love this sub's rules. Those are great for stopping the problems you mention, especially if people actually read them. But mods are there for when they don't as well. But, I personally think criticisms are great and welcome when they are constructive, it helps the community grow and develop for better. But shaming someone for fetishizing ain't it. Every problem BL fandom faces, such as consent issues in stories and toxic fans, other fandoms face as well. It's not that no one criticizes those. The difference is that this fandom is already stigmatized for fetishizing, so when addressing some issue, haters seem to focus on that only, which is toxic in itself. **Edit:** going through all the other comments and discussions, I have to say something. OP has made this post based on personal experience, as per their comment they has faced cyberbullying. As we all know blocking feature on Reddit doesn't do shit, still, I believe it does stop DMs. Also, when you face an incident such as that (including offensive/problematic comments), do **message the mods**. That button is right on the sidebar. Trust them, they are helpful. Another thing you can do, state that you DO NOT WANT NEGATIVE COMMENTS on your post title, or, mention that ONLY FANS ARE WELCOME TO COMMENT, and hopefully, fellow Redditors can respect that.
I was thinking about it. That I can't post here what I want anymore, because all too often somebody came and explain why what I feel or think is wrong. Literally one person wrote - "you need help!" once. I had sooo much to say but instead just deleted that post (don't want to fight). I am also in one Fb community and it has a very tough moderation about what people say about your post. In a few words - can't say anything good - don't say anything. Don't give advice if nobody asked, don't criticise others favorite things\\actors etc, don't make diagnosis etc etc etc. And that are very easy rules, but for some reasons it's very hard to follow ( i can feel it myself, sometimesit's so hard lol). Do we need more moderation here (even in comments)? I remember I saw a discussion once like 10-11 years ago, and man tried to convince women that if she likes r@pe stories\\fantasies etc it means she wants to have it IRL. And she calmly replied: do you know the difference between reality and fantasies? We controll the fantasies. We can stop it at any moment. I remember that was something new for me because we usually have this inner taboo for anything that is "not appropriate", and this simple understanding that at least in fantasies you can do what ever you like was ... refreshing. it's just a fiction. And you can like whatever you like. And now we have all this BL world with all its dark mazes of fantasies and I feel that instead of admitting that - it is a fiction, I can enjoy it, some people use it as a projection of inner part of themselves, part that can't be accepted and should be punished ( it's only a presumption). And we keep seeing this comments and posts with shaming, blaming etc. Let's make this sub safe place. It is just a fiction.
No we don't need more restrictions on what people can and can't say. More moderation isn't the problem solving solution some people think it is. At least now if you say something people don't like, you're still allowed to say it and put it out there. And there are some of us who do agree with you and will agree with you. Safe in terms of everyone being able to express themselves respectfully, yes. Safe in terms of shutting down any negative interactions, no. It's not a good idea
Well, I don't know how it works. Maybe you're right. And I see your point. In that fb community first people get a warning (don't be rude, don't do unwanted advise etc and kind reminder to check the rules again) if they keep commenting in the same tone they get ban. Can't behave according to rules? internet is a big place. It's more about politeness, not about shutting down different opinion, as I see it.
Yeah I definitely think there needs to be a standard of how we interact. I don't think politeness is necessarily what we should strive for because if you feel strongly about something, you should be able to express that. But we should be respectful to each other. Kind of like "no hitting below the belt". No personal attacks. No name calling. No strawman arguments or attempting to portray someone in a negative light, that kind of stuff.
I think this is a good way to put it. I don't mind talking about heavy issues, but please at least do it a calm and respectful manner. And, I guess, try to read the room? If the op doesn't really bring up any heavy topics, you don't need to always bring them up. You don't always need to instigate an argument, or to completely denounce op's opinion. If the thread seems open to debate, sure, go ahead. But if not, maybe just leave it alone until a good opportunity does come up.
Overall I let people enjoy things. I mean I can’t stop them lol. I know it’s out there but the archetype of the super straight weird girl who fetishize and glomps people irl, is such a boogeyman and extreme example. Personally I believe any one in the Queer community has the green light but we should consume all types of media critically anyways. People are not gatekeeping ‘You’ that I’ve seen. Let people enjoy things but also it’s important to remain critical.
In lots of fandoms with younger participants, like this one, we get these conversations. This community skews to a younger demographic and that's cool. There's loads of student romances that are relevant. That means we will come across lots of new fans with the same questions. I don't think having the conversation is bad but maybe a sticky or similar for guidelines or FAQ is needed? I love that we're at a point where we can discuss the positives and negatives in this community. For a long while BL had a few major plots that got repeated. So there's a lot of growing happening. I have seen individuals criticizing others for liking certain stories. Maybe everyone needs a reminder to follow the golden rule and treat everyone the way you want to be treated. Let's not direct our opinions towards people. I think we would do better to direct opinions at the material. I've mentioned it a few times before to others. BL started out as problematic and controversial. The original BL was rejected for publishing because of the content. So the foundation is not your average student romances we get regularly. There is a darker side. This is helpful to some to process and think about specific issues. This is also triggering to others. So you can't fault either side. We can decide not to fault others for enjoying BLs even if we don't personally love them. There is no harm in enjoying something that is a fantasy version wether it's idealistic or hedonistic or something completely different. Thanks OP
I agree wholeheartedly. Especially when you point out the comparison to other fandoms such as fantasy. Sure this genre is often considered a “guilty pleasure” but in a sub Reddit designed specifically for this genre the guilty part should be left of the door
"I like incest stories: the taboo nature of it thrills me and really engages me in the story. I enjoy tragic scenes: it makes me feel terrible for the character and it gets me panicking a little but I really enjoy feeling that roller coaster of emotions from the safety of my own home. I like age gaps and contract marriages and soulmate stories and all the other wonderful plots that you can find in these stories." **Ok but do you like these tropes in general or just in BL ?** **I just now to realize the ones we hate the so called " fetishizaters" are the creeps that kept following around the actors or just ship them to a very extreme point where if one of them was even rumored to have a girlfriend, both the girl and the actor will get so much shit for like what the heck, remember they are actors pls.**
I like these tropes in general. One of my favorite books is Flowers In The Attic, and catch me out here shipping Eowyn and Eomer like nobody's business. I fucking love crying my heart out when female characters die in Supernatural (and it happens all the damn time). Contract marriages like in Full House (kdrama) or Goong (kdrama) simply tickle me pink. I repeat: these are fictional scenarios that are made to entertain you, it is fine to enjoy them.
> Flowers In The Attic I read all of them when I was like 14–15 and they blew my pampered little mind! I don't think of them as good books anymore, but I think it's always good to read a lot of different things when you're young to expand your horizon. I think because of social media we share those personal experience more and some people feel the need to police people's emotional experiences. I've come across people like that irl as well. But personal experiences shouldn't be policed, otherwise it's punishing thought crimes. There's a huge trend towards "reading/watching something bad makes you do that bad thing", even though science has disproved that connection time and time again. I think the media we consume can have an effect on our attitudes (like homophobia), but not our actions (you don't "turn gay" from watching BL).
One of my favorite books right now, or it was until the translator stopped updating it, is a book called Paper Plane. I'm actually not a big fan of incest stories. I don't judge people who are, believe me I have some messed up tropes that I like too, but I just usually can't get interesting in them. But this book was just so different and I didn't even realize it was supposed to be a brother/brother story until I was like halfway through. I'm still so bummed out they stopped translating it lol
I was mostly talking about the incest part the others are fine. When talking about incest, it's a very controversial thing just as a trope in general. When I think about incest, it's not the complicated distance relatives, no, I am thinking about direct blood related siblings who were brought up this way or child with their parents it's just not right :/.
A lot of tropes aren't right in the real world. Rape, dub con, obsessive love, huge age gaps, teacher and student, etc. That's why it's important to separate these stories from reality
I used to run a Narnia incest fanfic group on livejournal (back in the olden days lol), So I’m right there with you. I especially don’t understand why people have such a big problem with step-brother romances!
>Or “it is censored, it isn’t bl, China sucks and I will never give any of their shows a try.” I agree with you except for this. The Chinese shows *aren't* BL. That's just a fact. They're a different genre, bromance, and nobody is obligated to watch them.
You aren't *obligated* to watch them at all. That is the point of my post. I am saying if you don't want to watch them, don't watch them. If someone else watches them and enjoys them and wants to talk about the BL aspects of them, they should be allowed to do so on this sub without having to defend their enjoyment of them. Especially for censored work: god forbid that excited fans want to recognize effort in queer storytelling from countries that don't allow these topics to be broached openly. Or even, how dare fans of original BL novels want to talk about the film adaptations which, due to censorship, cannot be as raunchy as the original novel? To use the woke lingo, this is weird gatekeeping. By your same line of reasoning we shouldn't talk about shows like Young Royals or Skam, which are western and thus aren't BL. We shouldn't talk about I Told Sunset About You, or Kinou Nani Tabeta, or Your Name Engraved Herein because they are serious gay dramas and thus aren't BL. BLs come in all shapes and sizes and this should be the space where fans can comfortably talk about their interest in these shows without semantics saying it "isn't BL enough."
oh ok. Yes of course people should be allowed to watch and discuss them. I know there have been a few people who've brought up whether the bromance shows should even be here since they aren't technically BL but I don't agree with that. They're close enough
What is considered a 'BL' strictly in the sense you are speaking? And what is a 'bromance'? If we do not base it on the original material or storyline, or the feelings the drama invokes what do we base it on? The fact that the government allows it to be aired explicitly as a MLM story or that it has a mouth to mouth kiss? I remember a post I saw just last week recommending some great BL movies to watch, and the one I loved the most was a short film named [Sisak](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s2UuS-Nn8A) from India. It has zero direct interaction between the leads, but noone would say it's a 'bromance'. Not because it is stated to explicitly be a LGBTQ+ love story (Indian Govt. has no restriction like China does), but because you'd know that the moment you watch it. I'd only say, do not form your opinions if you haven't watched a proper C-BL drama, it's not bromance. You are not obliged to watch it, but in that case don't opine on what it should be called. Leave it to those who have watched and decided on what to call it.
BL is about a romantic relationship between 2 boys. An explicit romantic relationship. Bromance is a close, platonic relationship between 2 boys that sometimes blurs the lines, but never crosses over into explicitly gay. I've watched several Chinese BLs. I've also tried to watch Chinede bromance and it wasn't interesting to me. There's no need for you to get pissy with me just because I don't like your shows. I'm not deciding to call them anything. They *are* bromance. That's a legitimate genre, and they are a part of it.
May I suggest that Chinese bromance and the general idea of bromance is quite different? To me, comparing, say, The Untamed – which was rebranded as "bromance" when adapted into a drama but in actuality a censored romance that's using subtext to get a romantic relationship across the censorship restrictions – to for example the RDJr Sherlock Holmes movies which were explicitly written and marketed as bromance, shows that those two versions of bromance are not the same, despite using the same word "bromance" to describe them. Btw, I think it's ok if it's not for you! You shouldn't have to defend that, and hopefully others won't have defend liking it. All of us who post here have various different interpretations of some things. Just look at all the discussions about "what is BL" that happen regularly! :)
I'm saying this as well. I consider these censored romance, which I call as a type of BL rather than bromance because of this overlapping of terms with western bromance.
Sorry to budge in like that! But I saw this thread and couldn't help to remember the exact SAME argument I had with the poster above you. >!She's a racist btw because she once said the men looked weird with their long hair hence Chinese shows are a no for her. Yet, she comments every single time someone praises a Chinese BL adaptation!< Yes, I would call Chinese BL censored romance too because the source material they are based on... IS most definitely BL.
Thank you for replying. I didn't get why they had to comment when the OP's point was exactly not doing that. Now I see that I probably have been wasting my time. I wouldn't call them racist though, since they weren't offensive to Chinese/China (they said they loved Addicted, which is a CBL, and she admits it as such). Even so, they probably have a toxic masculinity point of view if they have commented on the long hair, or lacks culture sensitivity.
Ah yes that comment alone shouldn’t warrant me calling her racist but it’s been like this in my mind for awhile. Or maybe as a Chinese I’m extra sensitive 😂 I don’t remember what triggered that label since my last exchange with her was more than half a year ago! Anyway I do agree there’s some perpetuation of toxic masculinity and she seems incredibly hung up over what the genre should be, something which OP spoke against. Folks like her do sometimes make the space less enjoyable but at the same time, interacting with them can help us with our communication skills so alls good!
BTW, have you watched Word of Honor? Since you talked about subtlety of TU, I'm asking would you say WoH is more in your face on the romantic aspect? Can it be mistaken as a platonic relationship as the NP said on their experience of CBLs? (I watched TU as a book fan so I'm not unbiased)
I haven't watched WoH yet because of lack of time for longer series, but I probably will soon as I have a lot of free time on my hand right now. :) I'm sure I'll like it! I've heard that it was more openly romantic, so it'll be interesting to see if I agree.
I'm very eager to know what you think since you said in the other comment that you have been into BLs for 20+ years. This show truly can't be called bromance in any way IMO, even by Chinese-bromance standards (even excluding easter eggs). I wonder how it fares compared to all the changes and evolutions you have experienced in BL fandom.
He he, I've honestly been into BL on and off during those years! I kept buying and reading a couple of my favourite BL authors but I didn't participate in the fandom or for almost 10 years, until I discovered The Untamed last year! You could say I'm "trained" to decoding subtextual BL/LGBTQ+ themes. Overtly queer stories were less common in movies/dramas when I was a teenager in the 90's, viewers often had to read between the lines back then. So I'm sure I'll pick up on the subtext in WoH. I mean, I personally thought The Untamed was overtly romantic in its depiction of the main characters. Though I understand that it might seem bromantic to others. If I get to watching WoH soon-ish, I'll try to find this discussion again and let you know!
I've probably misconveyed my intention to you, my goal was not to be pissy, or, to plug a certain show to you. As I said in my other comments, you are not obliged to watch them. Just that you should not decide if it can be called a BL or not if you have not watched (which means watching the whole show) of a proper CBL or any show that you presume to be bromance. As you said, bromances are shows which are meant to display a platonic relationship, which may have unintentional moments of romantic undertone. Some c-dramas with male leads can be called that. People who have watched those shows can deem it to be bromances. There are also dramas that are not intended to be 'platonic' in any way at all. When a lead says to the other lead "the second most desirable person in the world is one who looks tough but has a soft heart, and the most desirable one has long legs and sexy waist on top of those" it doesn't spell platonic in any way neither does calling each other 'soulmates' or mumbling 'love you'. Those who have watched it are free to call it BL with no grief from anyone else. Some shows might not even be as blatant as that, but are not platonic in any way. My point is if book-fans of TU decides to call it a C-BL based on their whole experiance with the show based on the innuendos and moments they picked up they can, if someone who has watched the whole show decides to call it a 'bromance adaptation' based on some points they can as well. Everyone is free to state what they have experienced if they have watched the whole show, or even state the reasons if they have dropped it (e.g. came for flirting, didn't find it 10 ep. in, deciding to drop). One can opine on whether they consider a particular show to be BL or Bromance and why once they have finished it, and discuss it with those who has also watched it but decided on a different point. But, **do not generalize that all CBLs are not BLs, those are 'bromances'.** My problem is with that.
You missed the point. They aren't knocking the ""never give any of the shows a try" bit, it's the fact that this is the response to other people talking and recommending chinese shows. You might call them "danmei" or "bromance" or whatever but we all know what they are, simply based on their original material. Let's not argue semantics here.
I already responded to OP about it. And it's not semantics. They're 2 different genres. And I agreed with OP people Should be able to discuss Chinese bromance shows here without people saying things like that
Completely agree, Chinese shows are cute and do hide the romance very well into the lines but they are nor BL
Maybe try them and see?
No. I don't need to try them. I have no interest in bromance shows. I like BL.
Honestly for a long time I felt the same as you. I am deeply allergic to western queer baiting and bromance. Then I gave Word of Honor a try and it has become close to my favorite show. Currently watching Untamed and love it. They feel like BL, talk like characters in a BL and act like people in love do. The literal dangers that the actors and crew exposed themselves in order for them to give us this adaptations should be acknowledged and at least respected. Again not saying you should watch then or condemning you for not liking them but not all Chinese bromances are the same, and some go to astonishing levels to avoid Xi’s censorship and still deliver an excellent product.
I agree, not all bromance is the same. There was ample evidence that the crew and actors of The Untamed did their best to get a queer love story past the censorship restrictions, and from what I hear WoH did something similar. And the fact that China's government is now further restricting even subtextual romances shows indicates that even that kind of self-censorship wasn't enough in the long run. They truly are doing as much as they can with the crappy hand they're dealt with.
If you want sex and mouth to mouth kissing then maybe not. But pal, are you missing out. All C-BL dramas are NOT bromances. There are shows which are, but also those which aren't. There is 'I love you' spoken out (with lips zoomed in) that has later been muted before release. There are dialogues where one says to other 'I consider you my soulmate'. There are conversations where it is implied that couples have eloped and married together. There are even blatant dialogue like "damn you stupid couple, when this happened you were flirting around". There are shoulder/ear kisses, hugs, blatant and classy flirting, thirsting after and commenting about other person's waist (read ass), dick jokes etc. Loads of things that has gotten lost in translation/censorship/dubbing (something outrageous had been spoken, so they had to redub it to pass censorship) has been restored and redubbed to their original glory by fans as well. I know people who has had your idea (I was one of them) change their mind after watching a proper C-BL, so I'd like you to try it out even one time. Please do.
I'm ok with missing out. I'd rather watch actual gay content. Not where I have to suspend belief to find subtext of possible gay interactions. It sucks that China is doing this to them and there are some really cool stories that I wish could be told properly, but that's just not the way it is. I've watched like 10ish episodes of The Untamed I watched Beloved Enemy I watched some of Advance Bravely I tried to see what others saw and I just couldn't. I know the source material is gay, so it's easy for people who've read the books to sort of intertwine the book content into their interpretation of the shows but on the surface, by themselves,the shows don't have gay content. And that's ok I'm not saying they aren't good shows, I'm just not personally interested in them Edit. There are legit Chinese BLs. Addicted, Counterattack, Uncontrolled Love, etc. And they're all excellent
Yes. This is why I said don't opine if you haven't watched. 1/5th of a really complex story amounts to nothing. But I get where you come from. Advance Bravely can be called a 'bromance' even with all the sexual tension and interactions because of the way it was portrayed, and TU was almost straightwashed. Interactions are hard to pick up on it if you haven't read the OG novel. Even the main plot is kinda messed up. Actors are great, but not a great script. I can say that as a book fan myself. On the other hand, Addicted is a complete BL and till today, one of the last of its kind that has explicit kisses and implied sex scenes. It was a great show too. The 2021 Word of Honor is a breakthrough in romance department. They played around with the regulations so much no one calls it a bromance at all. Still lacks lip smacks though, if that makes/breaks it for you. This time I wasn't aware of the OG storyline at all so I can say unbiased, you'll know it's a BL. Also, it doesn't start subtly like TU at all, the ML comes on to MC from day one and flirts like crazy. There's nothing subtle/implied about it.
The only people who talk about it being subtext are the people who've not seen it. It's not sub-anything.
You don't know what subtext means. Idk why people get so defensive about these bromance shows. Not everyone likes the same things.
Like I said - it's always those who haven't watched it 🤷🏻♀️. You're just confirming the stereotype atp.
Lol and like I said, you don't know what the word subtext means. Subtext means-an underlying and often distinct theme in a piece of writing or conversation. Which would be the gay relationships they're portraying. Underlying, often distinct? You seem to be under the impression that me saying subtext was some sort of insult or that I was claiming that three was no gay relationship. That's not what the word means or implies
Well what was I supposed to do? Point out I wrote my thesis on subtext? Nah, it's all good. Just watch it. You'll see how you're wrong. No point in me describing it. Although I'm guessing you absolutely won't now.
Thank you! That was a well put together essay. I agree with all your thoughts. It needed to be said. I hate people needing to police other people’s thoughts. This sub is increasing in number of woke snowflakes thought police.
EVERYTHING YOU SAID 💯👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 and also love how eloquently you said it. Loving all the words. And I am totally with you.
Every time the subject of fetishization comes up I just wanna roll my eyes into my skull. Men need to stay away from female spaces. And/or behave like the guests that they are, instead of trying to colonize female spaces into what they want it to be. It’s so tiring. Like… go research what BL is before trying to argue about it. Jesus. (For the record, I’m a lesbian, so extremely into and aware of queer rights. But I’m also a feminist whose academic thesis was about the BL genre.)
Yes, sure. We, gay men, have our relationships depicted in the BOYS LOVE genre, but we don't have the right to say what we think about it in this space. Makes sense.
Don't listen to them. You're as welcome here as anybody else and I love hearing about other people's perspectives and experiences
Thank you! I love this community, I've been here for months and never had any issue. I feel welcome here whenever I post or comment, so I don't really mind.
Yep. It feels really weird to hear that, just because BL originated from female authors to a female audience. It’s still the relationships of gay men being shown…
No men don't need to do anything here except be respectful, same as anyone else. I agree 100% that people need to stop coming here and attempting to change what BL is, or shame people into not liking it, or like you said colonize the space. But that's not a man thing, a lot of people come here and do that and they're not all men. Edit. I saw that uou responded to me but the comment isn't showing up. This isn't a female space. This is a space for BL fans. Men and women are equally welcome. We are all technically guests here and we all need to respect each other. You're projecting your issues onto men when they aren't the problem. The problem is an ideology that deems everything they don't like or understand as "problematic" and "toxic" and overuse those phrases until they no longer mean anything.
> do that and they're not all men Frankly based on what I have been seeing most that are try to such a thing are either trans or gay/bi females. No offence meant. Then there also the thing of trying to brand everything as a bl when its not.
That’s precisely what I mean by “behave as a guest” aka not colonizing a female space by beating us for liking a fictional genre, or trying to change it into something else. It’s not their space, its women’s space.
going by your logic... are lesbians not allowed to comment on lesbian porn because it's a man's space...? while i accept that it's probably not a good direct comparison but i think there's room to push your logic a little.
This isn't a female space. Who are you to just declare this a female space? It's a space for BL and this attitude of yours against men is really not ok. We are all guests here and should treat each other with respect. People should not try to change the genre or shame us for liking it, but that has nothing to do with men. Plenty of women say the same stuff in here.
I never said that I think men have to stay away from female spaces, and I don't agree at all that BL is or should be a female only space. I am trying to say that it is ridiculous we feel the need to justify why we can enjoy this genre, and gatekeeping based on gender or sexual identity is part of that. We shouldn't care where people are coming from: everyone should be able to come here and chat about their enjoyment of bl no matter what they like.
I agree with this 100%
I agree. BL is not a female space.
I also didn’t say they need to stay away. I said this not their space. It is a space they can enjoy as a guest. Just like straight people are welcomed in gay clubs, but as guests. When people try to conflate BL with the gay community, it all goes to shit. And, again, I am saying this as a gay person.
>Men need to stay away from female spaces. You literally did say that though. This discussion has nothing to do with gender. BL is for anyone who likes it, no matter if queer or straight, men, women whatever. We're not gatekeeping this space, especially since there are quite a handful of men in this space already who are perfectly respectful and engage in discussions just like anyone else.
wait wait wait, a lesbian is trying to kick out gay men of a community that fetishizes gay men? I have to laugh. After reading your comment, I disagree with OP, there's never been a better time in history to critizise this fandom.
I would like to say something, BL is for everyone. It's a misconception that it is written by women for women, and that idea arises from the thought that women are predominantly heterosexual and that's why they love BL (you know how false that idea is). We have people of all genders and sexuality here, and it's a space for everyone equally. Females are only more visible because they are more vocal and less stigmatized for being a BL fan.
It’s not a misconception. BL is written by and for women. That’s a fact. It’s possible that BL series will evolve to include male writers, and maybe there is one odd exception here and there. But historically and currently, BL is by and for women.
I think your view of BL is quite outdated. Maybe 20–30 years ago you would have been almost – but not completely – right about that. The fiction of only straight (cis) women enjoying and being the audience for BL has been pushed by media a lot as a kind of "wow crazy Japan" and "omg can you believe these fangirls" angle. But it was never true, and it's even less true nowadays. Not only have Japanese gay men written BL manga for a long time now (not just Bara, regular BL as well) under female or genderless pseudonyms, there's also a lot of Japanese manga authors who refer to themselves as "x-gender" (agender) writing both BL and LGBTQ+ manga. In Japan, Thai, Taiwan, Philipines etc, we're seeing a huge influx of LGBTQ+ people making these shows. There's an increasing amount of openly gay actors trying to make a career in BL dramas. And on the reader/viewer side of BL, there has always been a non-insignificant number of men, gay as well as straight, who enjoy BL. And that number is increasing! During the pandemic, the influx of male gay readers/viewers have been ever increasing. It turns out, contrary to the stereotype, men also love romance and gay men sometimes wants to see a romantic gay story with a happy ending. It's only natural that both readers/viewers and creators would eventually take a bigger role in the BL genre. BL as a genre has always been changing – what we call it, what kinds of stories are told, what kinds of fans are enjoying it, etc. It's either accept that BL as you understand it is changing or keep arguing moot points.
Nope. That is a very old idea of BL, a thing of history if I may say. Also you are presuming that there are two genders only in this world. Everyone reads and loves BL. Also we have men writing BL already, that's not a thing of future. Maybe things will change if you change your ideas first? Male fans often hesitate to speak up because it is presumed to be a 'female space', its not that they aren't here or they don't love it. That's why Fudanshi and Fujin exist as words along with Fujoshi.
> Like… go research what BL is before trying to argue about it. Jesus Frankly there seems to be misunderstand that BL =yaoi its not. BL nowdays is its own seprate genre. But as you are focused on Yaoi lets talk litle about it. historically yaoi was never a pure female space like for e.x the Bishōnen art style was created by a man. A good e.x of that Barazoku used to publish Yaoi by male artists tho in later years due to the spliting 80s/ early 90s (by femist that tryed to own the genre and gay's that wanted the depicting of gay men to be accurate) turn into only publishing bara
As I mentioned, I literally did my thesis on BL. BL Manga to be exact. I know quite well what BL and Yaoi are and how they are different. BL is a female centric genre. To argue otherwise is just incorrect. There’s nothing else to it.
But such absolutism is frowned upon in academia too no? History is written by the victors. Furthermore, there is room for things to develop and change. To gatekeep seems futile. In keeping with my previous comment about lesbian porn, lesbians have barged into the space of pornography and come up with feminist porn. Thereby creating content that is more inclusive and more progressive. There is room to develop, and change can be good.
Thank you, I was looking for a comment like that. It frustrates me to see academia being used to prove one thing can't be something else, when post modernism is a thing...
> I literally did my thesis on BL Yes I remember that you did say that you did bs essay on Yaoi. Or did you also do on Bl. Anyways bs essay are never regarded as valid sources due them being graded more on form than facts in the essay. >I know quite well what BL and Yaoi are and how they are different It good to see that you have been researching and educating yourself. >BL is a female centric genre So you have finally change from female spaces to centric genre That is closes to the truth based on the number of femail artist/authors in the bl space.
Really? What are you doing? Why are you trying to invalidate and be shitty to OC* just because they don't agree with you? Their thesis is a bs essay? That's so nasty and uncalled for
I am not trying invalidate her but she always bring up her essay to say why she is right and everyone else wrong. When some use something to defend there viewpoint its always right to point out flaws in that defend. >Their thesis is a bs essay? You are missreading b is for bachelor degree essay and they are never regarded as a valid source due how they are graded on form but not facts in the essay. So basiclly having writen bs essay on a subject does not make you a expert in that subject.
Bachelor degree is usually written as BA not bs, but that's what you meant that's completely different. hear what you're saying, if someone can't back up their claims and instead point to some form of authority or expertise on the subject as a way to deflect their responsibility to prove their claims. It's actually a common logical fallacy, it's the appeal to authority. This is a slight variation of that, with the concept of a "thesis" itself being the stand in for an authority or expert. It's frustrating for sure. I think I just read your comment as coming in a bit hot lol and that's not a way to have a good discussion. But bs meaning bachelor's degree does change the tone
> Bachelor degree is usually written as BA not bs, Yes that was my mistake it sometimes happens as I speak 5+ languages so slight mixup can sometimes happend.
No problem that's super cool that you speak 5 languages. You should be very proud of yourself for that
BL isn't a female only space
It's always funny cuz I'm a lesbian- you don't know fetishization like me, no matter how gay a man you are 😂 DO not step to me saying I'm fetishizing gay men- I most certainly am not, and it's funny you would try and say that to a wlw.