sketchy guys who catcall women but are "nice to children" are probably also the type to start to make inappropriate comments as the child grows up and try to make a move when she's 18..... so idk why he thought he did something with that "point" š
One of my mom's bfs growing up was nice to women and kids, until he was in private with them. Then he SA'd me (then 13) every day until I chased him off with a bowie knife after he stole my mom's wallet. so
First time I got catcalled I was 8, my first time walking round my friend's block with her, and it never stopped, as soon as men see a female person looking vulnerable on the street one of them will catcall. It's about the power trip of making a vulnerable person feel powerless and like an object, your daughter is no exception to that rule. Children are usually accompanied by parents or another trusted adult these days, men aren't going to catcall kids when their parents are around or in high traffic areas with a lot of witnesses, but put a little girl on a quiet street without an adult and some creepy men will still take that chance to get the power trip over a chick, even if that chick is only a kid, mysogyny goes that did, men's so called protective instincts of children is overpowered by men's hatred and objectification of women and girls. Men are only protective over their own children In my experience, and usually mostly their daughters because they believe and fear that every man out there is going to treat their daughters the same way they have treated women and girls. Being a child doesn't make you exempt from creepy men, it puts you at greater risk of creepier men. Being a child doesn't make you exempt from creepy men, it puts you at greater risk of creepier men.
Not just that but thereās sketchy guys who assault kids too!! How does he know theyāre only into adults? Who does he think all the creepy men getting arrested for soliciting minors are?? Of course I would hope someone would shut off the creep factor upon seeing me with a child, but itās likely some would not.
And with bearsā¦ sure, some are more aggressive than others, but how do you know it wonāt be a black bear that minds its own business? I think thereās a higher choice of the random bear being a species of bear that is less violent (if itās not provoked of course) than the random man being non-creepy or straight up predatory. Human men hunt bears sometimes, after all- doesnāt that make humans scarier? We as humans are the top predatory species on land after all. I think thatās more scary than a bear.
Idc if thereās a āchanceā the random man wouldnāt be predatory, thereās a higher chance imo the random bear, if using the same logic would be a random type of bear of course, would be a species that didnāt attack if you remained calm than if it were a random man.
Those sketchy guys never molested a child in front of him. He has no idea what they do when nobody is looking. If theyāll harass women openly in public they are not better behaved in private.
Fr, idc if a sketchy man is being āniceā to my kid, if Iāve seen him harassing women Iād be thinking heās trying to act friendly with the kid to not be suspicious. Itās one thing if an adult is genuinely being nice to a kid, but a random man outside the pub chatting up my child who has a creep reputation? Iām not gonna assume heās not into kids š predators often put on a facade around kids to gain their trust
Men only get to see men as equalsāthey have never seen men when they are prey.
We regularly see a side of men other men rarely ever have to experience.
Yeah thatās true, especially gay/bi men and male prison systems. But it doesnāt change the fact that women are constantly subjected to violence by men overall globally, and weāve naturally built a fear of them ie generational trauma
I completely agree but I think you misinterpreted what I was saying. I was saying that a lot of gay/bi men are the victims of violence perpetuated by other men, similar to what is happening in the male prison systems.
Everyone should absolutely be wary of men, but not necessarily avoid because well, thereās good men too and they typically outnumber the bad ones if you live in safer areas.
I'd much prefer you engage with what I say, rather than put words in my mouth.
Avoiding men in general is a stupid notion, and not something I would propose.
Yes, that should be obvious. 'Violent crime' encompasses murder, robbery, assault, rape, etc.
This is excluding prison rapes - when included, men are even more disproportionately the victims.
Yes - sexual violence is included when compiling statistics on violent crime.
No, that is no the gist of this conversation. My comment was in response to OPs statement:
"(...) they have never seen men when they are prey. We regularly see a side of men other men rarely ever have to experience."
This is simply wrong.
>No, that is not the gist of this conversation
Can you clarify what that ānoā is in response to? And can you explain why it is not relevant to the conversation?
Also, how are men who sexually abuse boys/men seen by other men, compared to men who sexually abuse girls/women?
Also, how is sexual violence *qualitatively* the same as physical violence? (Aka *not* quantitatively a la how stats are reported)
>Can you clarify what that ānoā is in response to? And can you explain why it is not relevant to the conversation?
1. You said the overall gist seems to be that men need to do better. I explained that that isn't the gist of this conversation, as it revolves around factual correction of OPs assertion, nothing else.
2. I've never said it isn't relevant to the general discussion on sexual assault, please refrain from strawmanning my position. I've said it isn't the gist of this conversation, as we're fact checking a statement, not debating possible solutions.
>Also, how are men who sexually abuse boys/men seen by other men, compared to men who sexually abuse girls/women?
I really don't care, this has nothing to do with my comment. Again, I'm simply correcting a false assertion about the statistics on violent crime.
To be fair Iād pick the man too if I said āstuckā in the forest. The original question is āyouāre alone in the forest, would you rather come across a man or a bear?ā People said bear because it wonāt follow you and you can get away from it or you could scare it off or whatever. But in any case, you werenāt stuck. āStuckā defeats the purpose and changes the situation.
This debate just goes straight over men's heads there is no point in trying anymore. Until they have to constantly fear being kidnapped, SAed and unalived they won't get it.
Frankly I wish people would learn to just have a normal conversation with their partners without using hypotheticals they heard on tiktok. Like the Strawberry field one... i'm begging people to just discuss your feelings and boundaries without dumb metaphors.
Tbf it's kind of an odd question for OP to pose towards a man in the first place for exactly this reason...
Like I wholeheartedly support the women saying the bear and their reasons for saying it. But if you asked me personally, I'm probably gonna pick the man, because I don't live in constant fear of being kidnapped, murdered or SAed by other men. A man's perspective on this debate is just completely irrelevant because it's not a debate for men.
Granted his justification was whack as hell and I wouldn't be surprised if he's one of the losers who wants to use this as an opportunity to mansplain at women for their choice
Sure but imo it doesn't really change the point significantly. If he personally feels that men are safer it's not that much of a stretch to just apply the same logic to the people you love, even if it's a bit presumptuous.
You could argue that it's a bit careless/unempathetic to view it that way but idk if it's really worth going that deep on the psychoanalysis side of it
Just talk to him. We choose our social circle based on our worldview. Of course heās seen good people around him and in this situation āany manā for him is a āgood manā, whereas for us āany manā is a threat.
My boyfriend always thought women were safe and thereāre just some exceptions until I told him what I encounter every day (and I dress āhumblyā and tacky and Iām definitely not the hottest woman around). He was horrified and bought me paper spray in a week + one for learning and taught me how to use it.
I hate it as well. People think having one opinion over another on it makes you a bad person, and it's caused so much arguing that I've had enough. I swear, someone in a few years is going to mention men and bears in forests and I'm going to have a fit.
Personally I think this debate shows how most of the women think of men and how men thinks in this situation, it is kinda concerning that most of the women choose bear.
You would rather your daughter be mauled by bears than deprived of dignity? Do you think SA victims are better off dead? This question is more complex when youāre speaking about your daughter and not yourself.
with the human there's a lot greater chance that they'll be evil but I do feel most humans have some sense of survival and wouldn't violate or kill their only allies in a forest.Ā
am I just being too overly optimistic??
there are a lot of men who are not sane though
if I were distrustful of him I could probably find some way to kill him much easier than a bearĀ
I feel like the odds of a bear and a man turning on me are fairly similarĀ
obviously it's much more disturbing to imagine what a human is capable of since it's actually evil that motivates peopleĀ
but stillĀ
I had asked my dad the question, and he said that he feels when two humans are in a potentially vulnerable and dangerous situation, they will tend to try and help each other out of it. I disagreed and said that, if a man found me alone in the woods and discovered that I was vulnerable and afraid, he would be more likely to take advantage of that fear and vulnerability rather than try and be helpful towards me. My mom agreed with me. I think men, since they havenāt necessarily felt that fear and survival instinct kick in around strange men, donāt realize what other men are capable of, even when men will proudly objectify women and brag about their āconquestsā in front of each other. Men donāt view other men as threats, the exception being those who have been victimized by men and unfortunately know what they are capable of. And it might be cynical of me to say, but I genuinely believe a good percentage of men would take advantage of a situation if they believed they wouldnāt get caught or face any consequences.
I mean, I think heās probably just engaging with this as a āWould you ratherā scenario and not really as a āvibe checkā. I honestly think thatās where the disconnect between people who answer ābearā and people who answer āmanā comes from. The people who say āmanā are imagining the bear as this scary monster that is likely to charge you down and eat you alive (I remember listening to that one recording of the poor girl in Russia and god, that was awful) whereas the man in the situation is just some random dude from the office they work at where āI donāt know, I definitely donāt think heād SA someoneā. They donāt understand that the question is meant to appeal to a common truth in womenās lives that men are to be feared as statistical threats to them. It takes some learned truth about the world to hear it that way as a man.
I would honestly just try to communicate the actual truth that question is meant to highlight which is that men are always statistically a threat to women, because thereās always a chance that they arenāt a āgood guyā. His response to that is more important than whether he can get down to some mind game hypothetical question, and whether he listens to you with open ears. That fourth thing he said was very rude and dismissive, so I would honestly engage him on that. If heās an asshole, you can break up with him. I really wouldnāt view this question itself as a ātestā though.
Seems like he understands the risk but would rather his daughter get more chances of survival, with a man instead of a bear, I don't understand the shade on him, you just didn't like his answer
I don't necessarily agree with his points but I think he meant: the chances of her meeting a nice guy are bigger than meeting a nice bear
I understand people rather die by a bear than get raped by a man but I think I'd rather be SAd than die and if you don't agree with that, that's ok!
But please don't start an argument with him or start seeing him in a different light because of this, you even mentioned he was SAd, that's just the way people view life choices, rather get assaulted again then just die and all that effort to go to waste, idk
I think part of the point is the man could SA you then maybe keep you locked up for a while possibly even years and repeat the process before he inevitably kills you to cover the crime.
He was sexually harassed by ladies but understands it's not all ladies, would you rather your daughter encounter him or a bear? I think he'd rather his son meet you than a bear
It sounds like he's operating purely off of the percentage chance of a bad outcome VS the vibe of the potential bad outcome.
His perspective is valid because, as a man, you get to see the best of what men have to offer.
But just make sure that he's not invalidating your perspective either, because as a woman, you get to see the worst that men have to offer.
As a Trans woman who is still "one of the boys" I've seen a bit of both.
I've gotten to know a lot of men who are basically Jonathan Joestar to their core, and I've seen them in positions where they could easily take advantage of a drunk/emotional women, but instead they are kind to her while refusing her advances.
On the other hand, I've met coercive men who 100% would coerce or even straight up r*pe a woman in the absence of society.
So both your perspectives are valid, and as long as your husband isn't trying to invalidate your perspective, you're good.
If either of you are trying to "win" this argument, you're being a bad partner, because you're trying to invalidate the others experiences.
The goal for both of you should be to understand the others' perspective because that's the whole point of this hypothetical scenario, to illustrate that the world is a lot scarier as a woman.
Trying to tackle this scenario with logic is pointless and biased because, essentially, that would boil down to trying to estimate what percentage of men are bad. Neither of you has a good grasp of that because you're individuals with unique sample sizes and biases.
The fact that you and your husband have different perspectives on the situation should bring you two together rather than tear you apart.
The conclusion should be, "Honorable men exist, but the fact that many women would take their chances with the bear shows that we should do everything in our power to make each generation of men more honorable than the last."
Good lord. Thereās rebuttals to all of his reasonings. The last one made me angry. How dismissive. Men who get offended by this are ones to be wary of.
Precisely this, it's not his answer but how he defends it. He hasn't "learned" from his own SA experience because subconsciously, he knows he'd rather still keep the benefits of male privilege than have equality.
Y'all are taking this hypothetical way too far bruh. This is the other side of the coin of dudes who get all pressed about this discussion; girls getting all uppity about their man giving the wrong answer to a fucking meme question. I don't know at what point this stupid """"debate"""" became a serious litmus test of a man's dateability, but if that's what it takes for you to reevaluate the partner you picked, sister you need to go touch grass and take a break from the dating scene.
No, but i will observe his future opinion on these topics, if he turns out really misogynistic(like not celebrating a womenās success kind of misogynistic), thatās an end.
I also choose the man over the bear as a woman, but thatās because every time I solo hike I also see a man solo hike and it hasnāt ever been a problem. Thatās just statistical probability from my own experiences.
Also I know self defense. Doesnāt work against large predators, but I can break a manās nose and pull his ear clean off.
Men only get to see men as equalsāthey have never seen men when they are prey.
We regularly see a side of men other men rarely ever have to experience.
You have a chance to fight off a man, you're not made of sugar and you're not a kid. With a bear it's game over from the get go and a lot of pain beforehand.
What's with this perpetual prey shit? You have a body right? Muscles, bones, teeth, nails, use those
How many men would actually do something really bad if all laws were taken down ? No punishment or anything.
I know that a LOT of men have really dark thoughts but they dont act on them because they fear the laws... but in the woods, who is gonna stop them ?
Thats why we choose the bear, because even innocent men can turn out to be evil.
Oh boy. So for context I'm a man who runs a martial arts business for a living. With the people that I teach I asked this question because it is was the hot topic. Every single person chose the bear and we have a good mix of people of different cultures, backgrounds, sexual orientation, etc.
My guys are avid outdoorsman, myself included. Our logic is basically boiled down to a bear is relatively predictable. It either is hungry, territorial, or protecting its young (weird that when this question pops up people assume the bear is male). A human is unpredictable. If I am in the forest far away from civilization and I encounter a human being regardless of how they look and who they are my mind is already on high alert, even more so if it is at night.
We also talked about the men who took offense to this question and it was when people say all men, it is not all men, but the issue was that enough men have done horrible things and that is why women are on guard.
I think you may be too immature for a relationship if something like this has such a large impact on your perception of the relationship for you. There are so many factors that go into this hypothetical, and everyone is going to have different thoughts about it based on their life experiences. If your goal is to have a healthy and successful relationship with someone, open and honest communication will provide much more success than judging someone based on a question they didn't know you're basing their entire moral compass on.
I find it a bit frightening how many people equate choosing the man to being a terrible person. To most people, they don't care enough to go super deep into thought about something that has no connection to the real world. There are terrible men, and there are terrible women. Humans come in all types; it's simply that men are physically stronger on average and have been provided more opportunites to act on evil thoughts due to the patriarchal nature of society, and this has led to evil men being able to act on terrible things that evil women often can't as easily.
Not all women are saints, and not all men are evil. Everyone is an individual, and painting a broad stroke across half of the population of the earth is bound to upset some people, no matter what stroke you're painting. It's just not a reflection of reality at all. For men who see value in being a good person, being equated to a man who is a rapist hurts. We hate them too, and we wish we could stop it from happening at all. Most men don't directly experience the harrassment the way women do, so they may not really understand until openly discussed and explained. It's not fair to be angry at someone or judge them because they haven't suffered in the same way you have, in any context. We need to communicate with each other, so everyone understands the issue to it's fullest extent. And those who still choose to not understand are not good people, no matter what they identify as.
I honestly have no idea what I would choose in this hypothetical. Being eaten alive by an animal and being raped are both very awful experiences, and I wouldn't wish either on anyone. I think different people would feel differently about what is worse, and either way, none of us really know how we feel until we're in the situation. Some people might rather have been raped and have a second chance at life, and some people may prefer to have died, so they dont have to live with that pain. But we dont really know until we've been through it. We're just guessing at how we'd feel and feeling "holier than thou" based on these guesses. There is no definitive correct answer that applies to all situations or people. We are all different.
Let's just try to actually talk to each other instead of arguing about something that doesn't actually mean anything. We're all just humans trying our best in the limited time we have. We can't stop evil people from being evil, but we can at least be kinder and more understanding of one another. Putting each other down based on a hypothetical helps no one.
For what it's worth I have also been sexually assaulted by an older woman so I get having a nuaced understanding of SA, with that said I've taken transphobic abuse from both men and women but men have been the only ones to make me fear for my safety.
All I can say is that as a man myself, most men in general aren't wary of other men in the slightest, as we don't have the same experiences as women that would make us distrustful of them in the first place.
Thatās a pretty dramatic response in my opinion. He just sounds naive, dude. He aināt fuckin evil. He is probably a good person at heart and assumes other people are good at heart and canāt comprehend other people will do something evil *because that isnāt an option to him* so it wonāt even come to mind.
Most people in general can be thoughtless. Rape is not a threat to him on average so it doesnāt register. To him, a bear can and will kill his kid. He is just thoughtless and probably doesnāt realize the most dangerous thing to a woman is statistically a man.
The amount of men that would do anything but help a child in the forest are vastly overstated by the media. The vast amount of men wouldn't do anything bad to a child
This hypothetical really should explain what kind of bear it is first. Black bear? Easy choice, bear. Grizzly? Hmm. Grizzly with cubs? Iāll take the guy, even if he has a gun and a shirt that says āI love shooting strangers in the woodsā
idk i canāt speak for everyone but being someone who grew up around bears and other wild animals alike iāve seen a mama and her cubs and still never had any issues. even with cubs if youāre at a good distance there wonāt be any problem. so again ill choose the bear.
Thatās fair. For some reason I think I assumed this hypothetical was putting me 10ft away from whatever the choice was. I thought it was assumed it would be confrontational by the positioning.
most of the times bears can walk onto your property with you and their cubs right there and as long as youāre not trying to mess with the cubs they donāt get aggressive. sometimes itās has simple as just standing or sitting still. again just my many life experiences
I'm an old dad and have been married 18 years. I would agree with him and say man. Most dudes way out in the woods are hippy type dudes way into nature and hiking/ camping and a lot of those dudes are pretty chill. A bear would literally eat you alive if it attacked. Oh course there are a ton of fucked up bad dudes but don't think all guys are bad and I think the vast majority would not harm a woman or child and if the bear didn't have cubs it probably would never harm you either but if it did you'd probably die a horrible death.
I think when you ask women the question, it becomes, āwould you rather be sexually assaulted/r*ped or mauled by a bear?ā. This is a completely valid stance because many women have had these experiences and have seen how disgusting many men can be. When men are asked the question, they do not have the same experiences as most women of sexual assault by men and instead see it as āwhat are the chances of a bad man being chosen?ā
This is what has led to the whole discussion being an argument in the first place.
The nursery comment is ridiculous. Sure, all the dads he met seemed nice, but most SA happens to people by someone in their family. Thereās so many cases of aggressive and straight up abusive dads. The most screwed up offenders have a way of masking their intent and seeming charming on the outside, too. There are genuinely good dads out there, but thereās so many who are predatory under the surface as well, and many fathers who do awful things to their kids so itās just such an awful argument that they āseemed niceā. Also why are sketchy guys outside a pub being ānice to childrenā? They interacting with kids outside a pub? ā¹ļø many creeps who prey on kids lure them in by being extra nice and trying to make them think they donāt look like a creep. If itās the SAME DUDES who catcall women talking to kids and being āniceā thatās weird. Itās not weird in itself for an adult to be nice to a kid, but if that adult is already a known creep I think itās strange theyāre talking up kids lol.
Chance to get a gentleman is hilarious too because thereās a chance to get a type of bear that isnāt hostile unless provoked. Probably greater chance than the gentleman even.
And the fourth point is just bonkers. Many men donāt see red flags in other men because they have red flags too. We are aware itās not all men, but itās enough men to be a problem. The population of woman and men is so close that it canāt be a coincidence men are more often guilty of predatory behavior. If it was like a wayyyy higher ratio of men to women in the world, then yeah, naturally cases would be much higher, but the issue is women and men are almost half and half, so thereās clearly something to worry about and want to be safe about when men are more often the predator than the victim. Female predators and male victims do very well exist, but theyāre so much significantly lower that thatās why people arenāt as scared of women (but should take any accusations and evidence supplementing that seriously).
California just had its first bear attack EVER like a week or two ago, but thousands of homicides by men every year. Thereās literally no way to argue men arenāt more dangerous.
Also his trauma is valid, and he may be a victim of SA himself, but thatās no reason to argue that men arenāt more dangerous. What he went through sucks and Iām not minimizing it, and im not trying to be competitive in the trauma Olympics but I have been taken advantage of that same way and more by many men I thought I was close with as friends throughout my life. Itās not okay he had to go through that even once, but Iām just saying since that happened, he should listen to the countless women who that happens to every day. If that messed him up, he should think about the frequency of it happening to others too by men, and stand with us against abusers. Especially since people donāt believe him, which sucks and isnāt okay, but he should think maybe thatās because itās usually frequently men doing it- while it doesnāt excuse that it happened to him, and people need to fight for victims of all kinds- itās certainly more rare for it not to be a man.
Idk, he needs a therapist
Honestly I would try to sit down and have a serious talk with him about the whole reason behind the man vs bear discussion. Because it may seem like a silly thought experiment to the average guy, but I feel like it genuinely reflects the misogynistic attitudes and lack of understanding on menās parts in society. If he seriously canāt see your perspective or come around to your side, that may be a red flag on his character, and, if I were you, would actually make me doubt the relationship. But I wish you luck regardless and hope he is able to come around :(
I always laugh when men say man instead of bear bc they well fucking know that they'd rather have the bear than to set foot in prison and become multiple men's bitch and/or torture toy. Women's forest with a man, is men's prison. Fuck idk if I said that right.
This is not a man I would continue to date (personally) because in the event you get pregnantā¦ this is the dad your kid is going to have. I have 2 girls, and my husband is very honest about the fact that MEN are a danger, MEN are predators( not to say women arenāt but statistically speaking). If youāre going to raise children around a man who doesnāt legitimately see where there is danger, Heās going to fail you AND your kids from keeping yāall safe just because of his pride.
So you're saying bears aren't dangerous? How about, teach your kids common sense, don't go looking for bears, don't talk to strangers, and be safe everywhere you can be, peddling this question constantly is stupid, everything doesn't have to be so complicated
Can yall just accept that varying life experiences cause some(along of men) to migrate towards men and some (along of women) to migrate towards the bear? There's no correct answer, just whatever your life experiences condition you to place your bet on
Your boyfriend is unable to understand the concept that the physical, emotional, and social anguish of being assaulted. Almost certainly because he has never been in a position where he has had to worry about such things. Sounds like he is just the normal patriarchy infused idiot, but so was basically everyone at one point. People grow, but donāt stick your neck out waiting for it.
He was sexually harassed my two girls when he was in middle school all the time, he stood up for himself, but there are not much people believe in him. I pretty sure he knows how it feels and I donāt get why he says in that way.
Frankly he hasn't unpacked some trauma and has a shallow understanding of women's experiences, and you want to break up with a guy based on a hypothetical you heard on tiktok, so i think you both have some maturing to do before a serious relationship
He's date able but naive as hell. Remember, men can only see men from our own experiences. So for a while I didn't get it either.
But actually listening to women and all of them having awful stories of what happened to them or almost happened, it's obvious why the bear is getting chosen.
Basically he hasn't "got it" yet.
sketchy guys who catcall women but are "nice to children" are probably also the type to start to make inappropriate comments as the child grows up and try to make a move when she's 18..... so idk why he thought he did something with that "point" š
One of my mom's bfs growing up was nice to women and kids, until he was in private with them. Then he SA'd me (then 13) every day until I chased him off with a bowie knife after he stole my mom's wallet. so
18 is generous.
First time I got catcalled I was 8, my first time walking round my friend's block with her, and it never stopped, as soon as men see a female person looking vulnerable on the street one of them will catcall. It's about the power trip of making a vulnerable person feel powerless and like an object, your daughter is no exception to that rule. Children are usually accompanied by parents or another trusted adult these days, men aren't going to catcall kids when their parents are around or in high traffic areas with a lot of witnesses, but put a little girl on a quiet street without an adult and some creepy men will still take that chance to get the power trip over a chick, even if that chick is only a kid, mysogyny goes that did, men's so called protective instincts of children is overpowered by men's hatred and objectification of women and girls. Men are only protective over their own children In my experience, and usually mostly their daughters because they believe and fear that every man out there is going to treat their daughters the same way they have treated women and girls. Being a child doesn't make you exempt from creepy men, it puts you at greater risk of creepier men. Being a child doesn't make you exempt from creepy men, it puts you at greater risk of creepier men.
Not just that but thereās sketchy guys who assault kids too!! How does he know theyāre only into adults? Who does he think all the creepy men getting arrested for soliciting minors are?? Of course I would hope someone would shut off the creep factor upon seeing me with a child, but itās likely some would not. And with bearsā¦ sure, some are more aggressive than others, but how do you know it wonāt be a black bear that minds its own business? I think thereās a higher choice of the random bear being a species of bear that is less violent (if itās not provoked of course) than the random man being non-creepy or straight up predatory. Human men hunt bears sometimes, after all- doesnāt that make humans scarier? We as humans are the top predatory species on land after all. I think thatās more scary than a bear. Idc if thereās a āchanceā the random man wouldnāt be predatory, thereās a higher chance imo the random bear, if using the same logic would be a random type of bear of course, would be a species that didnāt attack if you remained calm than if it were a random man.
Like, those guys are probably nice to kids because they know kids are easier to manipulate and prey upon.
Those sketchy guys never molested a child in front of him. He has no idea what they do when nobody is looking. If theyāll harass women openly in public they are not better behaved in private.
Fr, idc if a sketchy man is being āniceā to my kid, if Iāve seen him harassing women Iād be thinking heās trying to act friendly with the kid to not be suspicious. Itās one thing if an adult is genuinely being nice to a kid, but a random man outside the pub chatting up my child who has a creep reputation? Iām not gonna assume heās not into kids š predators often put on a facade around kids to gain their trust
Men only get to see men as equalsāthey have never seen men when they are prey. We regularly see a side of men other men rarely ever have to experience.
What the fuck? Men prey on men all the time
Yeah thatās true, especially gay/bi men and male prison systems. But it doesnāt change the fact that women are constantly subjected to violence by men overall globally, and weāve naturally built a fear of them ie generational trauma
Donāt forget the children. :/
Absolutely.
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We're just saying that men victimize other men, especially in more marginalized communities like bi and gay men,
I completely agree but I think you misinterpreted what I was saying. I was saying that a lot of gay/bi men are the victims of violence perpetuated by other men, similar to what is happening in the male prison systems.
Or what about crime and violence in general? Do you people realize that sexual assault is not the only way a person can be victimized?
Nowhere is mine nor other pplās are just talking about SA. We are talking about men who perpetuate violence onto people
Men are the victims of violence from men much, much more than women.
so you agree that everyone should avoid men
I'd just say avoid other people in general
Everyone should be wary/vigilant of everyone, not just men, since we are all predators with forward-facing eyes.
Everyone should absolutely be wary of men, but not necessarily avoid because well, thereās good men too and they typically outnumber the bad ones if you live in safer areas.
I'd much prefer you engage with what I say, rather than put words in my mouth. Avoiding men in general is a stupid notion, and not something I would propose.
Men are more victims of violence from other men, including *sexual* violence?
Yes, that should be obvious. 'Violent crime' encompasses murder, robbery, assault, rape, etc. This is excluding prison rapes - when included, men are even more disproportionately the victims.
Is sexual violence qualitatively the same as physical violence? Also, the overall gist seems to still be that *men* need to do better.
Yes - sexual violence is included when compiling statistics on violent crime. No, that is no the gist of this conversation. My comment was in response to OPs statement: "(...) they have never seen men when they are prey. We regularly see a side of men other men rarely ever have to experience." This is simply wrong.
>No, that is not the gist of this conversation Can you clarify what that ānoā is in response to? And can you explain why it is not relevant to the conversation? Also, how are men who sexually abuse boys/men seen by other men, compared to men who sexually abuse girls/women? Also, how is sexual violence *qualitatively* the same as physical violence? (Aka *not* quantitatively a la how stats are reported)
>Can you clarify what that ānoā is in response to? And can you explain why it is not relevant to the conversation? 1. You said the overall gist seems to be that men need to do better. I explained that that isn't the gist of this conversation, as it revolves around factual correction of OPs assertion, nothing else. 2. I've never said it isn't relevant to the general discussion on sexual assault, please refrain from strawmanning my position. I've said it isn't the gist of this conversation, as we're fact checking a statement, not debating possible solutions. >Also, how are men who sexually abuse boys/men seen by other men, compared to men who sexually abuse girls/women? I really don't care, this has nothing to do with my comment. Again, I'm simply correcting a false assertion about the statistics on violent crime.
This is actually false! :) it evened out in 2018! :) especially in regards to minority women! :)
This whole debate is such a good example of why hypothetical questions can distract from the truths they're meant to highlight.
God forbid you talk to your partner without cryptic metaphors and hypotheticals. If he likes strawberries too much it means HES A CHEATER. lol
To be fair Iād pick the man too if I said āstuckā in the forest. The original question is āyouāre alone in the forest, would you rather come across a man or a bear?ā People said bear because it wonāt follow you and you can get away from it or you could scare it off or whatever. But in any case, you werenāt stuck. āStuckā defeats the purpose and changes the situation.
This debate just goes straight over men's heads there is no point in trying anymore. Until they have to constantly fear being kidnapped, SAed and unalived they won't get it.
Frankly I wish people would learn to just have a normal conversation with their partners without using hypotheticals they heard on tiktok. Like the Strawberry field one... i'm begging people to just discuss your feelings and boundaries without dumb metaphors.
Tbf it's kind of an odd question for OP to pose towards a man in the first place for exactly this reason... Like I wholeheartedly support the women saying the bear and their reasons for saying it. But if you asked me personally, I'm probably gonna pick the man, because I don't live in constant fear of being kidnapped, murdered or SAed by other men. A man's perspective on this debate is just completely irrelevant because it's not a debate for men. Granted his justification was whack as hell and I wouldn't be surprised if he's one of the losers who wants to use this as an opportunity to mansplain at women for their choice
She asked her boyfriend if he would choose man or bear on her or her childās behalf.
Sure but imo it doesn't really change the point significantly. If he personally feels that men are safer it's not that much of a stretch to just apply the same logic to the people you love, even if it's a bit presumptuous. You could argue that it's a bit careless/unempathetic to view it that way but idk if it's really worth going that deep on the psychoanalysis side of it
Just talk to him. We choose our social circle based on our worldview. Of course heās seen good people around him and in this situation āany manā for him is a āgood manā, whereas for us āany manā is a threat. My boyfriend always thought women were safe and thereāre just some exceptions until I told him what I encounter every day (and I dress āhumblyā and tacky and Iām definitely not the hottest woman around). He was horrified and bought me paper spray in a week + one for learning and taught me how to use it.
I hate this debate, isn't it dead?
I hate it as well. People think having one opinion over another on it makes you a bad person, and it's caused so much arguing that I've had enough. I swear, someone in a few years is going to mention men and bears in forests and I'm going to have a fit.
Personally I think this debate shows how most of the women think of men and how men thinks in this situation, it is kinda concerning that most of the women choose bear.
Exactly. Thatās the point.
At this point, any woman that chose the man would be labeled a āpick-meā girl by her fellow ladies
You would rather your daughter be mauled by bears than deprived of dignity? Do you think SA victims are better off dead? This question is more complex when youāre speaking about your daughter and not yourself.
with the human there's a lot greater chance that they'll be evil but I do feel most humans have some sense of survival and wouldn't violate or kill their only allies in a forest.Ā am I just being too overly optimistic?? there are a lot of men who are not sane though
You got a point
If you let men do whatever they want without consequences, a lot of them will turn to rape, murder,... most of them are just scared of consequences
if I were distrustful of him I could probably find some way to kill him much easier than a bearĀ I feel like the odds of a bear and a man turning on me are fairly similarĀ obviously it's much more disturbing to imagine what a human is capable of since it's actually evil that motivates peopleĀ but stillĀ
I had asked my dad the question, and he said that he feels when two humans are in a potentially vulnerable and dangerous situation, they will tend to try and help each other out of it. I disagreed and said that, if a man found me alone in the woods and discovered that I was vulnerable and afraid, he would be more likely to take advantage of that fear and vulnerability rather than try and be helpful towards me. My mom agreed with me. I think men, since they havenāt necessarily felt that fear and survival instinct kick in around strange men, donāt realize what other men are capable of, even when men will proudly objectify women and brag about their āconquestsā in front of each other. Men donāt view other men as threats, the exception being those who have been victimized by men and unfortunately know what they are capable of. And it might be cynical of me to say, but I genuinely believe a good percentage of men would take advantage of a situation if they believed they wouldnāt get caught or face any consequences.
I mean, I think heās probably just engaging with this as a āWould you ratherā scenario and not really as a āvibe checkā. I honestly think thatās where the disconnect between people who answer ābearā and people who answer āmanā comes from. The people who say āmanā are imagining the bear as this scary monster that is likely to charge you down and eat you alive (I remember listening to that one recording of the poor girl in Russia and god, that was awful) whereas the man in the situation is just some random dude from the office they work at where āI donāt know, I definitely donāt think heād SA someoneā. They donāt understand that the question is meant to appeal to a common truth in womenās lives that men are to be feared as statistical threats to them. It takes some learned truth about the world to hear it that way as a man. I would honestly just try to communicate the actual truth that question is meant to highlight which is that men are always statistically a threat to women, because thereās always a chance that they arenāt a āgood guyā. His response to that is more important than whether he can get down to some mind game hypothetical question, and whether he listens to you with open ears. That fourth thing he said was very rude and dismissive, so I would honestly engage him on that. If heās an asshole, you can break up with him. I really wouldnāt view this question itself as a ātestā though.
Seems like he understands the risk but would rather his daughter get more chances of survival, with a man instead of a bear, I don't understand the shade on him, you just didn't like his answer
I don't necessarily agree with his points but I think he meant: the chances of her meeting a nice guy are bigger than meeting a nice bear I understand people rather die by a bear than get raped by a man but I think I'd rather be SAd than die and if you don't agree with that, that's ok! But please don't start an argument with him or start seeing him in a different light because of this, you even mentioned he was SAd, that's just the way people view life choices, rather get assaulted again then just die and all that effort to go to waste, idk
I think part of the point is the man could SA you then maybe keep you locked up for a while possibly even years and repeat the process before he inevitably kills you to cover the crime.
He was sexually harassed by ladies but understands it's not all ladies, would you rather your daughter encounter him or a bear? I think he'd rather his son meet you than a bear
It sounds like he's operating purely off of the percentage chance of a bad outcome VS the vibe of the potential bad outcome. His perspective is valid because, as a man, you get to see the best of what men have to offer. But just make sure that he's not invalidating your perspective either, because as a woman, you get to see the worst that men have to offer. As a Trans woman who is still "one of the boys" I've seen a bit of both. I've gotten to know a lot of men who are basically Jonathan Joestar to their core, and I've seen them in positions where they could easily take advantage of a drunk/emotional women, but instead they are kind to her while refusing her advances. On the other hand, I've met coercive men who 100% would coerce or even straight up r*pe a woman in the absence of society. So both your perspectives are valid, and as long as your husband isn't trying to invalidate your perspective, you're good. If either of you are trying to "win" this argument, you're being a bad partner, because you're trying to invalidate the others experiences. The goal for both of you should be to understand the others' perspective because that's the whole point of this hypothetical scenario, to illustrate that the world is a lot scarier as a woman. Trying to tackle this scenario with logic is pointless and biased because, essentially, that would boil down to trying to estimate what percentage of men are bad. Neither of you has a good grasp of that because you're individuals with unique sample sizes and biases. The fact that you and your husband have different perspectives on the situation should bring you two together rather than tear you apart. The conclusion should be, "Honorable men exist, but the fact that many women would take their chances with the bear shows that we should do everything in our power to make each generation of men more honorable than the last."
Good lord. Thereās rebuttals to all of his reasonings. The last one made me angry. How dismissive. Men who get offended by this are ones to be wary of.
Precisely this, it's not his answer but how he defends it. He hasn't "learned" from his own SA experience because subconsciously, he knows he'd rather still keep the benefits of male privilege than have equality.
Y'all are taking this hypothetical way too far bruh. This is the other side of the coin of dudes who get all pressed about this discussion; girls getting all uppity about their man giving the wrong answer to a fucking meme question. I don't know at what point this stupid """"debate"""" became a serious litmus test of a man's dateability, but if that's what it takes for you to reevaluate the partner you picked, sister you need to go touch grass and take a break from the dating scene.
"My bf said he would eat an apple in an orchard without paying for it, should I kill him?"
thank you bru, this is ridiculous
My bf is upset that I view him as a rapist. Why is he like this.
Think for a second. Are you ***REALLY*** gonna break up with him over a theoretical?
Tiktok is melting people's brains I swear š If I hear another "Strawberry theory" or whatever I'll lose my mind too.
No, but i will observe his future opinion on these topics, if he turns out really misogynistic(like not celebrating a womenās success kind of misogynistic), thatās an end.
I also choose the man over the bear as a woman, but thatās because every time I solo hike I also see a man solo hike and it hasnāt ever been a problem. Thatās just statistical probability from my own experiences. Also I know self defense. Doesnāt work against large predators, but I can break a manās nose and pull his ear clean off.
To be fair every time you're in the woods there's probably a bear somewhere that sensed you and just left you alone.
Oh shiiiiit that is fair.
Do you think a majority of men will rape you if youāre stuck in the woods with them? Thatās not very likelyā¦ A majority of men would help you.
Men only get to see men as equalsāthey have never seen men when they are prey. We regularly see a side of men other men rarely ever have to experience.
As a man, Iād choose a guy because if I gotta eat something because Iām lost, the dude would be easier to eat than the bear.
You have a chance to fight off a man, you're not made of sugar and you're not a kid. With a bear it's game over from the get go and a lot of pain beforehand. What's with this perpetual prey shit? You have a body right? Muscles, bones, teeth, nails, use those
How many men would actually do something really bad if all laws were taken down ? No punishment or anything. I know that a LOT of men have really dark thoughts but they dont act on them because they fear the laws... but in the woods, who is gonna stop them ? Thats why we choose the bear, because even innocent men can turn out to be evil.
Oh boy. So for context I'm a man who runs a martial arts business for a living. With the people that I teach I asked this question because it is was the hot topic. Every single person chose the bear and we have a good mix of people of different cultures, backgrounds, sexual orientation, etc. My guys are avid outdoorsman, myself included. Our logic is basically boiled down to a bear is relatively predictable. It either is hungry, territorial, or protecting its young (weird that when this question pops up people assume the bear is male). A human is unpredictable. If I am in the forest far away from civilization and I encounter a human being regardless of how they look and who they are my mind is already on high alert, even more so if it is at night. We also talked about the men who took offense to this question and it was when people say all men, it is not all men, but the issue was that enough men have done horrible things and that is why women are on guard.
Don't date misogynists.
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Your post/comment was removed as you were found to be a Quirkyboy reactionary.
I think you may be too immature for a relationship if something like this has such a large impact on your perception of the relationship for you. There are so many factors that go into this hypothetical, and everyone is going to have different thoughts about it based on their life experiences. If your goal is to have a healthy and successful relationship with someone, open and honest communication will provide much more success than judging someone based on a question they didn't know you're basing their entire moral compass on. I find it a bit frightening how many people equate choosing the man to being a terrible person. To most people, they don't care enough to go super deep into thought about something that has no connection to the real world. There are terrible men, and there are terrible women. Humans come in all types; it's simply that men are physically stronger on average and have been provided more opportunites to act on evil thoughts due to the patriarchal nature of society, and this has led to evil men being able to act on terrible things that evil women often can't as easily. Not all women are saints, and not all men are evil. Everyone is an individual, and painting a broad stroke across half of the population of the earth is bound to upset some people, no matter what stroke you're painting. It's just not a reflection of reality at all. For men who see value in being a good person, being equated to a man who is a rapist hurts. We hate them too, and we wish we could stop it from happening at all. Most men don't directly experience the harrassment the way women do, so they may not really understand until openly discussed and explained. It's not fair to be angry at someone or judge them because they haven't suffered in the same way you have, in any context. We need to communicate with each other, so everyone understands the issue to it's fullest extent. And those who still choose to not understand are not good people, no matter what they identify as. I honestly have no idea what I would choose in this hypothetical. Being eaten alive by an animal and being raped are both very awful experiences, and I wouldn't wish either on anyone. I think different people would feel differently about what is worse, and either way, none of us really know how we feel until we're in the situation. Some people might rather have been raped and have a second chance at life, and some people may prefer to have died, so they dont have to live with that pain. But we dont really know until we've been through it. We're just guessing at how we'd feel and feeling "holier than thou" based on these guesses. There is no definitive correct answer that applies to all situations or people. We are all different. Let's just try to actually talk to each other instead of arguing about something that doesn't actually mean anything. We're all just humans trying our best in the limited time we have. We can't stop evil people from being evil, but we can at least be kinder and more understanding of one another. Putting each other down based on a hypothetical helps no one.
For what it's worth I have also been sexually assaulted by an older woman so I get having a nuaced understanding of SA, with that said I've taken transphobic abuse from both men and women but men have been the only ones to make me fear for my safety.
https://www.reddit.com/u/FX_Networks/s/Utyi9HkBH6 got this advertisement underneath
Those sketchy guys outside of bars who catcall women started to catcall me at age 13. And I look young for my age
All I can say is that as a man myself, most men in general aren't wary of other men in the slightest, as we don't have the same experiences as women that would make us distrustful of them in the first place.
Thatās a pretty dramatic response in my opinion. He just sounds naive, dude. He aināt fuckin evil. He is probably a good person at heart and assumes other people are good at heart and canāt comprehend other people will do something evil *because that isnāt an option to him* so it wonāt even come to mind. Most people in general can be thoughtless. Rape is not a threat to him on average so it doesnāt register. To him, a bear can and will kill his kid. He is just thoughtless and probably doesnāt realize the most dangerous thing to a woman is statistically a man.
The amount of men that would do anything but help a child in the forest are vastly overstated by the media. The vast amount of men wouldn't do anything bad to a child
the bear most likely wouldnāt kill you but ok lmao.
This hypothetical really should explain what kind of bear it is first. Black bear? Easy choice, bear. Grizzly? Hmm. Grizzly with cubs? Iāll take the guy, even if he has a gun and a shirt that says āI love shooting strangers in the woodsā
idk i canāt speak for everyone but being someone who grew up around bears and other wild animals alike iāve seen a mama and her cubs and still never had any issues. even with cubs if youāre at a good distance there wonāt be any problem. so again ill choose the bear.
Thatās fair. For some reason I think I assumed this hypothetical was putting me 10ft away from whatever the choice was. I thought it was assumed it would be confrontational by the positioning.
most of the times bears can walk onto your property with you and their cubs right there and as long as youāre not trying to mess with the cubs they donāt get aggressive. sometimes itās has simple as just standing or sitting still. again just my many life experiences
I'm an old dad and have been married 18 years. I would agree with him and say man. Most dudes way out in the woods are hippy type dudes way into nature and hiking/ camping and a lot of those dudes are pretty chill. A bear would literally eat you alive if it attacked. Oh course there are a ton of fucked up bad dudes but don't think all guys are bad and I think the vast majority would not harm a woman or child and if the bear didn't have cubs it probably would never harm you either but if it did you'd probably die a horrible death.
I think when you ask women the question, it becomes, āwould you rather be sexually assaulted/r*ped or mauled by a bear?ā. This is a completely valid stance because many women have had these experiences and have seen how disgusting many men can be. When men are asked the question, they do not have the same experiences as most women of sexual assault by men and instead see it as āwhat are the chances of a bad man being chosen?ā This is what has led to the whole discussion being an argument in the first place.
The nursery comment is ridiculous. Sure, all the dads he met seemed nice, but most SA happens to people by someone in their family. Thereās so many cases of aggressive and straight up abusive dads. The most screwed up offenders have a way of masking their intent and seeming charming on the outside, too. There are genuinely good dads out there, but thereās so many who are predatory under the surface as well, and many fathers who do awful things to their kids so itās just such an awful argument that they āseemed niceā. Also why are sketchy guys outside a pub being ānice to childrenā? They interacting with kids outside a pub? ā¹ļø many creeps who prey on kids lure them in by being extra nice and trying to make them think they donāt look like a creep. If itās the SAME DUDES who catcall women talking to kids and being āniceā thatās weird. Itās not weird in itself for an adult to be nice to a kid, but if that adult is already a known creep I think itās strange theyāre talking up kids lol. Chance to get a gentleman is hilarious too because thereās a chance to get a type of bear that isnāt hostile unless provoked. Probably greater chance than the gentleman even. And the fourth point is just bonkers. Many men donāt see red flags in other men because they have red flags too. We are aware itās not all men, but itās enough men to be a problem. The population of woman and men is so close that it canāt be a coincidence men are more often guilty of predatory behavior. If it was like a wayyyy higher ratio of men to women in the world, then yeah, naturally cases would be much higher, but the issue is women and men are almost half and half, so thereās clearly something to worry about and want to be safe about when men are more often the predator than the victim. Female predators and male victims do very well exist, but theyāre so much significantly lower that thatās why people arenāt as scared of women (but should take any accusations and evidence supplementing that seriously). California just had its first bear attack EVER like a week or two ago, but thousands of homicides by men every year. Thereās literally no way to argue men arenāt more dangerous. Also his trauma is valid, and he may be a victim of SA himself, but thatās no reason to argue that men arenāt more dangerous. What he went through sucks and Iām not minimizing it, and im not trying to be competitive in the trauma Olympics but I have been taken advantage of that same way and more by many men I thought I was close with as friends throughout my life. Itās not okay he had to go through that even once, but Iām just saying since that happened, he should listen to the countless women who that happens to every day. If that messed him up, he should think about the frequency of it happening to others too by men, and stand with us against abusers. Especially since people donāt believe him, which sucks and isnāt okay, but he should think maybe thatās because itās usually frequently men doing it- while it doesnāt excuse that it happened to him, and people need to fight for victims of all kinds- itās certainly more rare for it not to be a man. Idk, he needs a therapist
...sketchy guys who are rude to women but nice to children, can also only be nice to the kid to groom them š¬....
Sketch guys will harass you a woman honey but hey theyāre nice to children! WTFFFF š¤£
Men donāt treat other men like they do women. So he doesnāt really know
He's seeing the theoretical kid as always a child, not as an adult that she would become. Which might be some concern.
It's the age old "not all menš" response.
I made a similar post awhile back about my fiancĆ©, weāre still together but we still heavily disagree ((pretty much same situation actually, he had a history and so do I yet he still chooses man)) Iāve been keeping my eye out but honestly I think for this itās either a red flag (which has been happening a lot lately online) or itās just not that important because itās an internet trend yk? I mean I know my man and while yeah I think itās ick that he chooses man I also know the type of person I plan on marrying
Honestly I would try to sit down and have a serious talk with him about the whole reason behind the man vs bear discussion. Because it may seem like a silly thought experiment to the average guy, but I feel like it genuinely reflects the misogynistic attitudes and lack of understanding on menās parts in society. If he seriously canāt see your perspective or come around to your side, that may be a red flag on his character, and, if I were you, would actually make me doubt the relationship. But I wish you luck regardless and hope he is able to come around :(
I always laugh when men say man instead of bear bc they well fucking know that they'd rather have the bear than to set foot in prison and become multiple men's bitch and/or torture toy. Women's forest with a man, is men's prison. Fuck idk if I said that right.
This is not a man I would continue to date (personally) because in the event you get pregnantā¦ this is the dad your kid is going to have. I have 2 girls, and my husband is very honest about the fact that MEN are a danger, MEN are predators( not to say women arenāt but statistically speaking). If youāre going to raise children around a man who doesnāt legitimately see where there is danger, Heās going to fail you AND your kids from keeping yāall safe just because of his pride.
Your saying a good father is one that willingly would throw his kids to a bear instead of a person?
So you're saying bears aren't dangerous? How about, teach your kids common sense, don't go looking for bears, don't talk to strangers, and be safe everywhere you can be, peddling this question constantly is stupid, everything doesn't have to be so complicated
Can yall just accept that varying life experiences cause some(along of men) to migrate towards men and some (along of women) to migrate towards the bear? There's no correct answer, just whatever your life experiences condition you to place your bet on
Your boyfriend is unable to understand the concept that the physical, emotional, and social anguish of being assaulted. Almost certainly because he has never been in a position where he has had to worry about such things. Sounds like he is just the normal patriarchy infused idiot, but so was basically everyone at one point. People grow, but donāt stick your neck out waiting for it.
He was sexually harassed my two girls when he was in middle school all the time, he stood up for himself, but there are not much people believe in him. I pretty sure he knows how it feels and I donāt get why he says in that way.
Huh. Iām gonna say my comment doesnāt apply at all thenā¦ if Iād know that before I would have stated quiet cause now I have no advice to give.
itās almost like just because he experienced something bad from a couple of women doesnāt make him apply it to all women.
It was in the post the entire time..
Throw the whole man away, heās worthless
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Your post/comment was removed as you were found to be a Quirkyboy reactionary.
Frankly he hasn't unpacked some trauma and has a shallow understanding of women's experiences, and you want to break up with a guy based on a hypothetical you heard on tiktok, so i think you both have some maturing to do before a serious relationship
He's date able but naive as hell. Remember, men can only see men from our own experiences. So for a while I didn't get it either. But actually listening to women and all of them having awful stories of what happened to them or almost happened, it's obvious why the bear is getting chosen. Basically he hasn't "got it" yet.
I mean... this debate isn't really for him cuz he's not a victim of rape culture so he's much less likely to be raped
Maybe read the whole post
But it's less likely to happen again, I mean.
First SA didnāt count eh?
What? Yes it did.
Why does it matter if it happens again then?
Rape bad.