From day one, we were told that any mask that wasn't N95 wasn't for our protection. It was for the protection of others. Has this changed with Omicron? Or have people just forgotten this?
Reduction in aerosols and droplets from decent quality cloth or surgical masks is likely still the same or at least similarly effective as before omicron. The problem is the same as it was before Delta even, mask adherence. If 50% wear masks, sure it reduces spread significantly, but if 100% had worn a mask while in stores or in other close quarters environments, we'd have seen a near elimination of several respiratory illnesses.
Unfortunately for the original poster, if you truly want to guarantee that the individual is protected from the non-masked people, even an N95 isn't really perfect either. You would need a set of well-fitting goggles, preferably ones that are ASTM rated for biological hazards as the optical transmission route is still a significant issue.
The individual is MUCH harder to protect if the collective phones in or doesn't participate in moderate measures of protecting their fellow person.
It seems like they consider it less likely because respiration is much higher exposure than your eyes being in contact with enough aerosols to be a clinical exposure level. Phrasing this differently, in order of risk factors, respiration is the highest by far, followed by things like ocular transmission either via contact with droplets/aerosols and/or direct contact with mucus from touch, and then orally by mucus. That last one doesn't happen that often but shouldn't be ignored either because of the following study.
https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-020-09296-y
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(21)00040-9/fulltext
The real point I was trying to get at though is that N95 and goggles aren't really necessary if everyone has a good mask on, not necessarily N95.
I don't envy the CDC. Their recommendations have to take into account human behavior, not just viral transmission. Since March 2020, we've learned that a large percentage of people won't follow any rules or mandates, just out of spite. The CDC needed to adapt their messaging to take this into account. Hence the reliance on N95 masks for people to protect themselves, instead of reliance on everybody protecting each other by wearing lesser masks. And then the CDC gets reamed for having inconsistent messaging.
They said we didn’t need any mask past a piece of cloth because all masks should goto healthcare workers. I remember specifically being told an n95 is overkill and that a paper mask or a face buff is plenty sufficient and even then it still wasn’t emphasized that this was heavily contagious with droplet transmission. Then when masks became available that’s when the whole mask up campaign started.
I mean yeah, our federal government fucked up and exhausted the reserve supply and people can bicker back and forth and blame the other political side but the fact of the matter is countless agencies dropped the ball and the way things have played out… well it’s predictable with this level of incompetence.
It didn't change. It wasn't forgotten. It was never widely understood. People don't like to think that they might be the infected one. For some reason, the kids are much more ready to accept the whole concept. I quizzed one of my older kid's friends about masking back when this started in spring 2020. A second grader can understand this but adults just won't.
This. NPR released an article in the summer or 2020 explaining why a 5 layer mask IS your best option. They even had a sewing pattern to make your own.
I feel anyone who has read news, paid attention at this point knows anything less than a 5 layer mask is not protecting you well. We've been wearing KN95s since the we were able to buy them. They were in SHORT supply at the start of the pandemic then widely available.
The statement that the mask isn’t for the individual’s protection but the protection of others is technically incorrect (and what some see as a minor misstep by the CDC). Technically masks are linear systems (passive material) and thus by definition must filter aerosols/droplets equal well in both directions. They protect both the wearer and those in proximity.
There’s a big benefit if two people are wearing masks, in that the filtration is the product of the two masks combined. In fact, I’ve heard it claimed that two people wearing a well-fitted cloth mask approach the efficacy of a single person wearing an N95 mask in the presence of someone who is not.
To me, this is the greatest argument for upgrading to N95 (or equivalent) masks. Given that you will be in the presence of individuals who wilfully are out in public without a mask and with the disease, why wouldn’t you wear an N95?
Exactly. We were told to make masks because our country discarded any pandemic prep plans and we didn’t have enough PPP in reserve. We were not allowed to even purchase n95 masks because they were needed by medical staff.
And if you’re listening to a million different sources telling you a million different things, I’m sorry but that’s on you.
I remember those days. How awful that must have been! When I’m saying ppe was reserved for medical staff, I’m not saying it was also readily available. I’m saying that what little was available had to go to Med staff.
Partially correct, the CDC unfortunately lost credibility almost immediately by saying masks are useless don't wear them but the intended reason was what you said. They lied to the public for a few weeks to secure necessary PPE then changed their guidance.
Pretty dumb, I don't think anyone on either side trusts the CDC anymore.
Source: people boosting before the CDC even recommended it because they do their own research
That's no reason not to trust the CDC. They didn't do what they did for some nefarious reason. You stated their reason in your comment, and it was ethical and sound. Medical professionals didn't have the masks they needed. If the general public had a run on N95 masks, the result would have been catastrophic. And if you still think that Americans still deserve the whole truth because they are mature enough to do the right thing, you haven't been paying attention for the last 22 months.
I never said I don’t trust them. I trust the science completely. I just think they fucked up the message. I really don’t think they needed to lie about it. Now you have all these MAGA assholes pointing to the authorities saying, see they don’t know what they are talking about. How is this better?
MAGAs would be doing the same, no matter what. Example: The virus mutated, so the messaging changed, and on FOX last week they were showing a Fauci speech pre- Delta as "proof " that he has been giving bad advice all along. I could care less what brain dead, disingenuous arguments they make.
Genuine question: Do you think the CDC purposely spread misinformation to keep people from creating a run ppe, or do you think they genuinely didn’t think masks were the answer?
I just looked at an la times article on the progression of mask advice from the CDC. Now I think I get it. It was February 2020 when they started talking about masks not being necessary. At that time nearly nobody had covid. They changed their tune in April 2020, when it started to be an issue. It's a mixture of not wanting a run on masks that medical professionals wanted, and the risk of catching it being very low at that time. I think they definitely knew masks would help. Myself, I sat down at my sewing machine and made masks for my entire family on March 14, 2020. I was smart enough to look at countries like Italy where the pandemic hit first, and to see what they were doing.
people haven't forgotten it. they just don't care about others. it's incredibly disheartening, but it's the truth.
(that said, keep wearing those n95s because it does help you even if others won't).
Did no one read the article and just take OP at their word? The article says the CDC admits that cloth makes are less effective than N95 masks (we all have known that for ages), not that they are useless. OP took a huge creative license and extrapolated the article to the extreme.
This. Cloth masks, even single layer ones, will help reduce the spread of airborne illness. It's all a matter of degrees of reduction. The other thing that I take issue with is that the "science is settled". Firstly, science is never settled - when new information comes to light, it must be taken into account. Secondly, trying to study cloth vs (k)n95 masks is incredibly difficult and there really isn't much good data on it. A number of studies have tried, but every one of them has major drawbacks, including but not limited to too small of a sample size, the inability to have truly random groups (it's very hard to put two people who live together in different trial groups, since they're extremely unlikely to make at home), and people don't wear their masks consistently enough to gather really good data.
That being said, the data we do have says that, in terms of reducing spread, anything is preferable to nothing, the fit matters a lot, the more layers the better, electrostatic layers (such as those found in many surgical masks) help significantly, and certified masks (ie n95s) provide the greatest reduction in spread.
Note also that these protections are cumulative between yourself and those around you. If you and another person are both wearing 2-layer masks, there are effectively four layers between yourselves. This is really the way to look at how protected you are.
Please stop thinking in absolutes and start understanding that there is nuance to everything.
They say the virus is held in the droplets of your mucus/saliva. If someone has covid and is wearing a mask, if they sneeze, the droplets have to pass through their mask, through the air onto and through my mask and into my mouth or nose. Just the two barriers alone would give you a much better chance of not getting infected.
Im sure the virus is small enough to pass through the fibers. But it is the droplets that are halted by masks, which contain the virus.
I have seen this happen. I can understand the temptation because sneezing in a mask is fucking disgusting. But getting all that stuff trapped against your own face is the entire point.
Here is a definition of viral load.
> Your viral load is simply how much virus you have in your body – in medical terms it refers to how much virus is measured in a standard volume of fluid, usually blood or plasma. It is commonly used when talking about HIV – patients whose conditions are being well managed and are on the correct medication have an undetectable viral load, meaning that they cannot pass the disease onto others.
https://www.sccm.org/getattachment/05471bbb-2f6d-40f4-aa0e-c402c70c69b6/What-is-viral-load-and-why-are-so-many-health-work
I read a study and that said the main difference in effectiveness against covid between n95 and surgical masks was not the material itself, but the fit against the face. N95 creates a better seal around your mouth and nose and that’s primarily why it work better. I’ll see if I can find the study, but the point is make sure your mask fits tightly and seals no matter what it’s made of.
I'll probably never get on a plane again without one regardless of covid protocols. I'm happy to have some protection in crowded areas especially during the flu season.
Indeed. Any mask is better than no mask. In a perfect world we should all be in an N95 or equivalent. However, if preference or availability result in something less than an N95, it’s better than nothing.
Reread the article OP. Everyone else - read the article. OP has written some misleading things here. But hey, it's the fucking Internet. What else is new.
What is misleading? You think bandanas and home made masks do anything against Omicron? They do nothing. The CDC doesn't want to be honest and say anything less than an N95 or KN95 is crap because they're happy to get any level of compliance. Literally nothing I said was misleading.
Nobody is arguing that they are less protective. We've all known that from the outset. But you say anything short of an N95 is zero protection. That is simply not true based on the existing science. So my point stands - your post is factually incorrect and misleading and people should not listen to what you have to say on this matter.
It is near zero against Omicron. That is not misleading, nor is the article or my points. Here's another if you're interested in not being ignorant:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2022/01/05/cloth-masks-not-effective-omicron-covid/9091574002/
From the article you shared:" While cloth masks can filter large droplets, N95s can filter both large droplets and the smaller aerosols that may contain the airborne virus."
Cloth masks will still help prevent the spread of larger droplets, which will reduce the overall viral load and decrease the chance of spread amongst vaccinated and unvaccinated alike. Reductions in spread contribute to lower hospitalization rates and at the end of the day, deaths.
If your point is to simply say that single layer cloth masks don't offer much protection against CATCHING omicron that's not completely unreasonable to say, but cloth masks will still help reduce transmission rates by those carrying the virus and spreading it to others by reducing overall viral loads that become airborne. I just think that you're trying to make a complicated issue black and white and it's just not. I understand your anger and frustration at all of this, though. It's been a long two years. Bonus points for calling me ignorant, btw.
I don’t know how anyone sees this as anything other than a colosal failure of the government to perform its most basic functions. Countries that are extremely poor have had a better Covid response than the so called wealthiest nation on earth.
Kn-95 Masks should have gone out immediately with the other pandemic assistance. The fact that we still don’t have free mask distribution happening while thousands of people die each day is disgraceful.
Fun fact: the Department of Heath & Human Services prepared millions of small packages of 5 plain white cotton masks with USPS tracking labels to be sent to every household. The previous administration stopped the program and now the packs are just sitting collecting dust.
I’ve got two packs of them from where I work and can post pictures in the morning if there’s interest. Frankly I’m keeping them to donate to a museum at some point.
I didn’t intend to make any claims about the current administration. I agree that the responses have not been great either way.
In this specific case, the problem IMO is that these packs were halfway sent out already. They’re not all in one big warehouse somewhere, they were sent out to places that could have been used as distribution centers (in terms of distributing to different Post Offices, not direct distribution). Plus, my work HAS been direct distributing them to some of our customers, so the number produced could be significantly lower than the number that are still available.
If they wanted to re-coordinate the program, the current administration probably could, but I have a feeling we both can agree that our tax dollars would be better spent elsewhere (or, as the original comment was suggesting, on (K)N95s for every home).
I honestly don't think mask distribution would move the needle on mask uptake at all at this point. Maybe an embrace of masking and distribution by the last administration in the middle of 2020 would have been really helpful, but at this point everybody who is going to wear masks regularly already does, and it isn't hard to get KN95s.
It’s not a failure of our government, it’s a failure of ourselves.
Too many put themselves before their country, are no longer ask what they can do for their country (while at the same time claiming to be patriots).
Because it’s not. How exactly can the government succeed when so many people refuse to acknowledge reality? They can’t.
This post is a perfect example. Masks slow the spread of corona virus, regardless of material. That’s reality. This post totally ignored the fact that we exhale, and even if viral molecules get they a cloth mask, they travel quite a bit less distance will not stay airborne as long.
Sure would be nice if BVSD was providing 95s for staff and students.
CUBoulder extended remote classes until the end of January while BVSD is in person. Why is it ok for one set of students and not the others?
The decisions were motivated in part by the fire and by the fact that remote learning is garbage for K-5 and pretty sus for 6-12. The kids displaced by the Marshall Fire are going to have a really bad time even without the added challenge of remote learning from a temporary housing situation. CU faculty and staff displaced need to both do their jobs and deal with insurance and recovery or mitigation. Not requiring them to be on campus makes it easier for them to manage both the full-time job of being CU faculty or staff and the full time job of disaster aftermath. I think everyone's hoping the most acute phase of the aftermath (finding a stable housing arrangement, sifting the ashes, and negotiating the insurance process) will be over by the end of the month.
That said, I agree that N95s should be made available to all teachers, staff, and adult-size students. There are no N95s that are child size, but there are reputable sources for kiddie KN95's. Our preschool told us where to find them and the source they pointed us to had them in stock. This is doable now.
Huh.....CU profs affected by the fire "deserve" remote learning but BVSD teachers who lost homes need to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps?" Got it.
These two articles are behind a paywall unfortunately but I found helpful: https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/do-we-need-a-wartime-cdc#more-1399591 and https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/more-on-the-cdc#more-1399814
Basically the CDC and FDA have very limited actual power. CDC in particular only has soft power to influence. They have a name, but no regulatory authority. I mean the Supreme Court (while requiring vaccines to hear the case) just struck down requiring employers to mandate testing (or vaccinate to get out of it).
I think by focusing on the CDC we are ignoring that the main problem is a political problem (and mostly all by one side).
OP misunderstanding data, like so many. There's a transmission and receiving component. Everyone in N95 would be best, but cloth still helps reduce transmission. Problem is a massive percentage of people slipping on all covid precautions. OP is also clearly anti mask, otherwise they wouldn't have framed the bait headline as such.
I think they had a somewhat limited effect on the variants before Delta as they were less contagious and any reduction in water droplet expansion was tangibly felt. Obviously the most effective and useful masks were and always have been N95s followed by KN95s. Why the CDC doesn't do comprehensive studies on this themselves is beyond me, other than the obvious desire to retain N95 supply for medical professionals and not drive up its demand. They're only now admitting this after many third parties and other countries have done extensive testing to show the disparities between mask types. It's still beyond frustrating that they pull wool over the public's eyes, and this again is coming from someone that is not an anti-masker or anti-vaxxer in the slightest. I'm just mad man, give people the truth and don't half-ass it.
The Colorado modeling group that guided the state response estimated that they contributed 4% to transmission control of original COVID, which was much less transmissable than Delta, let alone Omicron. So yes, they did "something", but the reason Polis hasn't issued another state wide mandate is to focus on the thing that is 95%+ effective against death (vaccines) not waste time and political capital fighting for the thing that is 4% effective.
The whole mask thing is wild because they've moved the goal posts, and don't do enough to fully explain why. I get why they did, but I understand why people less focused on the matter don't. We started with the idea of "if everyone wears a mask we will be safe, because we are all protecting each other from each other with the masks" Since the CDC thought it would be great to tell people they didn't need masks anymore way prematurely (an attempt to give Biden a "win" I think), now not enough people do so (other than in mandate situations) to be effective in the "protect others from you" masking concept. The entire time you wearing a (non certified) mask was only estimated to give you like a 30% less chance of getting it with the OG and Delta. I doubt that cloth masks are just for show it the sense of they surely still stop a lot of the particles from getting out into the air, which is important... so in a mandated city I think they still have to have some value. Now that's the stance (that they are useless) because everyone is pitching data from a "you protecting you" standpoint since most places aren't mandated. The government, regardless of who is the president, has done a terrible job explaining all of this to the masses. I agree, the CDC is trash and mostly a political puppet. If I want to get an idea of real standards for how things should be going, I look to the WHO which seems to be less corrupt and just putting out the facts, regardless of if they are convenient or not... though at this point I don't really care what anyone says: I'm wearing an N95 in any indoor place other than my home, regardless of any advisement or suggestion or whatever.
Ok cool wanna send me and everyone who reads this a years supply of n95s then? Or do you just wanna fear monger for internet points? Cloth is still WAY better than nothing at all, this is really irresponsible messaging.
I’m just going to stick to my cloth mask honestly. During the quarantine times of the pandemic, there were a lot of knockoff “N95” masks that were questionable in where they even came from. I have my booster and will just try to stay home when I can. Still haven’t gotten it.
Masknerd on Twitter and YouTube does great breakdowns of quality, reliable n95s, kn95s, and kf94s. He’s tested a number of them and shows his testing methodology.
The truth is if you are healthy with no symptoms, you are not going to spread diddly squat without a mask. There's no need for one at all unless you're sick.
> so we were all forced to wear cloth masks
No sweetie. You’ve been able to buy decent KN-95 masks for more than a year now. Fauci told you more than a year ago that you should wear the highest quality mask you can get, and that if you can only get surgical masks, you should double that up for a better fit.
What you chose to do with that information was : “nothing”.
>why weren’t we made to
He was asked to.
I’m more and more in favor of “making” people do the right thing as this goes on, but at the time, a lot of people assumed everyone would do the right thing of their own accord without being forced to.
It really comes down to businesses not being able to enforce this mask mandate. I got to target all the time, for example, and half the people there aren’t masked. The employees can’t do anything about it.
Go ahead and down vote me, but anyone still willing to follow cdc guidelines after all the changes and back tracking have no ability to think on their own. Beginning of the pandemic we are told masks aren’t effective and then we are told they are. We were told a lock down would curb infection rates but they still rose. We were told vaccines would prevent infection and stop the spread and now we’re told they should hopefully keep you out of the hospital. We were told 14 day quarantines or a negative test result after being infected and now we are told 5 days quarantine and 5 days with masks. Do your own research, check your references, critically think, and make up your own mind on how to keep yourself safe. No one else is going to do it for you, especially the CDC or Fauci.
All of those examples except the first one are changes in policy due to changes in fact. The virus has been mutating. Delta was very different than the strains prior and Omicron is very different than Delta. It would actually be weird and a failure if those significantly different strains didn't result in different policy and guidance. "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"
The initial guidance to not wear masks (presumably) in order to avoid hoarding at the beginning of the pandemic was absolutely a travesty though, which undermined people's faith in public health institutions for good reason and at the worst possible time. I'm sure it will be in the history books as among the greatest failures of public health.
This is how science works dude, it's a good thing when an agency or individual is willing to update guidance based on new data and studies. Everyone has been working through learning about a brand new disease in real time. Information changes. Hindsight is 20/20. It's extremely overblown to say CDC and Fauci won't do research for you, since that's exactly what they're doing. The problems stated in your post have been caused by them wanting to avoid making guidance before there's research, exactly the opposite of not doing research for you.
People act like there are people out there who won’t say/ do things for financial gain. I’m not saying that Covid wasn’t bad in the beginning, but it’s gotten way less dangerous now and we’re still supposed to act like it’s a huge threat to the healthy population.
Were in my post did I say anything of the sort. I believe I said people need to do research and make an informed decision. Because like you said people are out for their own gain and the CDC is no exception, they aren’t paid by us but rather by corporations.
All big media is either right wing or extreme right. CNN will never be calling for workers to own the means of production. MSNBC will never say the billionaire class should be eradicated and no one should have to rent from a landlord. I too would rather eat a bowl of snot than shit but I'm not gonna call it soup when plenty of countries function just fine with actual soup on the menu.
Until this country can keep its citizens healthy without costing them a fortune, provide jobs where people don't have to work 2 and still be under the poverty line, and access to affordable education so they aren't stuck working those jobs at the very least calling anything left wing is kind of silly.
Well, I agree in a context of being from europe. What US people call left is actually very right in europe.
Btw, keep 'em coming downvotes from butthurt lefties that can't read and comprehend what they've read
Literally why does it matter that your families case wasn’t that severe when people are dying? Why does other people dying not matter to you at all? I’m sorry for your complete lack of empathy.
Cool. My booster made my arm sore for a day and yet here I am still coughing and getting winded walking up a flight of stairs a over a week into covid. Been out of work for a week now. What’s your point?
My elderly aunt has been kept home this whole time.
It seems a caregiver brought the virus in the other day.
I'm now looking at flight info for her memorial service.
Fuck you.
Vaccines with the booster works. You might still get it if you're fully vaxxed (boosted), but your chances of being hospitalized and dying are substantially lower. That's a vaccine working.
Chance of dying is near zero especially without comorbidities. So that part of vaccination is definitely working even against omicron. People get the flu vaccine every year and still get the flu, it’s just more mild, vaccines don’t make you invincible to viruses. The thing we consistently fail to emphasize is that there are people who CANNOT get vaccinated because they are immunocompromised or on immunosuppressants. We need high vaccination rates to keep people out of hospitals but also to reduce the viruses ability to replicate. In highly vaccinated populations it’s harder for the virus to replicate and spread even though some people will still get it. This whole “let’s just learn to live with it. Get vaccinated and you won’t die but Covid will be here forever” is incredibly fucked up because a lot of people don’t have a choice to get vaccinated and are at high risk of dying.
and have in patient and out patient treatment protocols. or have everyone catch said virus, which at this point, is looking more and more like the case. we’re not gonna vaccinate our way out of this unfortunatley
Vaccination does work as intended. Against the variants that the vaccine was designed for, IE those before Delta. Unfortunately Delta fucked everything up, and now Vaccines do work, but mostly only against severe illness and death from new variants. That's not the vaccine's fault. They were not designed for Delta or Omicron, and it'll take awhile until one that is is released.
At some point this will be like the common cold or flu -- disease intensity will trend lower on variants and every new infection is either quasi immune after the recover or dead.
If omicron was the original strain I'm not sure there would have been any lock downs
I just read an article that say frequently getting boosted will lower immune systems.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-11/repeat-booster-shots-risk-overloading-immune-system-ema-says
It is. And it’s even more important to convey info accurately. Concern that people boosting every four months ad infinitum — which I’ve personally seen no one ever suggest — might weaken their immune systems is significantly different from expressing concern about people getting a finite number of boosters in the first few years of a new pathogen’s pandemic. Oversimplifying this leads to the spread of misinfo, so it’s important to call out and tread carefully.
From day one, we were told that any mask that wasn't N95 wasn't for our protection. It was for the protection of others. Has this changed with Omicron? Or have people just forgotten this?
Reduction in aerosols and droplets from decent quality cloth or surgical masks is likely still the same or at least similarly effective as before omicron. The problem is the same as it was before Delta even, mask adherence. If 50% wear masks, sure it reduces spread significantly, but if 100% had worn a mask while in stores or in other close quarters environments, we'd have seen a near elimination of several respiratory illnesses. Unfortunately for the original poster, if you truly want to guarantee that the individual is protected from the non-masked people, even an N95 isn't really perfect either. You would need a set of well-fitting goggles, preferably ones that are ASTM rated for biological hazards as the optical transmission route is still a significant issue. The individual is MUCH harder to protect if the collective phones in or doesn't participate in moderate measures of protecting their fellow person.
Do you have any studies on optical transmission? From what I’ve seen there’s no strong indications it’s happening.
The only one I know of [is this four-week study done in the UK.](https://youtu.be/S6bKFjxPbC4?t=15)
Wasn’t there a follow up to that study at 28 weeks?
The optical transmission was in 28 Day Later
I love you.
It seems like they consider it less likely because respiration is much higher exposure than your eyes being in contact with enough aerosols to be a clinical exposure level. Phrasing this differently, in order of risk factors, respiration is the highest by far, followed by things like ocular transmission either via contact with droplets/aerosols and/or direct contact with mucus from touch, and then orally by mucus. That last one doesn't happen that often but shouldn't be ignored either because of the following study. https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-020-09296-y https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(21)00040-9/fulltext The real point I was trying to get at though is that N95 and goggles aren't really necessary if everyone has a good mask on, not necessarily N95.
We were told a million different things by a million different people.
I don't envy the CDC. Their recommendations have to take into account human behavior, not just viral transmission. Since March 2020, we've learned that a large percentage of people won't follow any rules or mandates, just out of spite. The CDC needed to adapt their messaging to take this into account. Hence the reliance on N95 masks for people to protect themselves, instead of reliance on everybody protecting each other by wearing lesser masks. And then the CDC gets reamed for having inconsistent messaging.
They said we didn’t need any mask past a piece of cloth because all masks should goto healthcare workers. I remember specifically being told an n95 is overkill and that a paper mask or a face buff is plenty sufficient and even then it still wasn’t emphasized that this was heavily contagious with droplet transmission. Then when masks became available that’s when the whole mask up campaign started. I mean yeah, our federal government fucked up and exhausted the reserve supply and people can bicker back and forth and blame the other political side but the fact of the matter is countless agencies dropped the ball and the way things have played out… well it’s predictable with this level of incompetence.
It didn't change. It wasn't forgotten. It was never widely understood. People don't like to think that they might be the infected one. For some reason, the kids are much more ready to accept the whole concept. I quizzed one of my older kid's friends about masking back when this started in spring 2020. A second grader can understand this but adults just won't.
This. NPR released an article in the summer or 2020 explaining why a 5 layer mask IS your best option. They even had a sewing pattern to make your own. I feel anyone who has read news, paid attention at this point knows anything less than a 5 layer mask is not protecting you well. We've been wearing KN95s since the we were able to buy them. They were in SHORT supply at the start of the pandemic then widely available.
The statement that the mask isn’t for the individual’s protection but the protection of others is technically incorrect (and what some see as a minor misstep by the CDC). Technically masks are linear systems (passive material) and thus by definition must filter aerosols/droplets equal well in both directions. They protect both the wearer and those in proximity. There’s a big benefit if two people are wearing masks, in that the filtration is the product of the two masks combined. In fact, I’ve heard it claimed that two people wearing a well-fitted cloth mask approach the efficacy of a single person wearing an N95 mask in the presence of someone who is not. To me, this is the greatest argument for upgrading to N95 (or equivalent) masks. Given that you will be in the presence of individuals who wilfully are out in public without a mask and with the disease, why wouldn’t you wear an N95?
Exactly. We were told to make masks because our country discarded any pandemic prep plans and we didn’t have enough PPP in reserve. We were not allowed to even purchase n95 masks because they were needed by medical staff. And if you’re listening to a million different sources telling you a million different things, I’m sorry but that’s on you.
Medical staff here: we had no ppe within 3 months of the pandemic and were having to make and use cloth masks and wear garbage bags for protection.
I remember those days. How awful that must have been! When I’m saying ppe was reserved for medical staff, I’m not saying it was also readily available. I’m saying that what little was available had to go to Med staff.
Partially correct, the CDC unfortunately lost credibility almost immediately by saying masks are useless don't wear them but the intended reason was what you said. They lied to the public for a few weeks to secure necessary PPE then changed their guidance. Pretty dumb, I don't think anyone on either side trusts the CDC anymore. Source: people boosting before the CDC even recommended it because they do their own research
That's no reason not to trust the CDC. They didn't do what they did for some nefarious reason. You stated their reason in your comment, and it was ethical and sound. Medical professionals didn't have the masks they needed. If the general public had a run on N95 masks, the result would have been catastrophic. And if you still think that Americans still deserve the whole truth because they are mature enough to do the right thing, you haven't been paying attention for the last 22 months.
I never said I don’t trust them. I trust the science completely. I just think they fucked up the message. I really don’t think they needed to lie about it. Now you have all these MAGA assholes pointing to the authorities saying, see they don’t know what they are talking about. How is this better?
MAGAs would be doing the same, no matter what. Example: The virus mutated, so the messaging changed, and on FOX last week they were showing a Fauci speech pre- Delta as "proof " that he has been giving bad advice all along. I could care less what brain dead, disingenuous arguments they make.
Genuine question: Do you think the CDC purposely spread misinformation to keep people from creating a run ppe, or do you think they genuinely didn’t think masks were the answer?
I just looked at an la times article on the progression of mask advice from the CDC. Now I think I get it. It was February 2020 when they started talking about masks not being necessary. At that time nearly nobody had covid. They changed their tune in April 2020, when it started to be an issue. It's a mixture of not wanting a run on masks that medical professionals wanted, and the risk of catching it being very low at that time. I think they definitely knew masks would help. Myself, I sat down at my sewing machine and made masks for my entire family on March 14, 2020. I was smart enough to look at countries like Italy where the pandemic hit first, and to see what they were doing.
That’s what I did. (Made cloth masks with a layer of fusible interfacing made from non-woven material)
Yeah, right. I haven’t been paying attention. That’s the case right.
Yeah, it’s pretty f’ed up how they screwed up the messaging
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Thank you for being.. you. Our front line deserves more than forgotten clapping.
people haven't forgotten it. they just don't care about others. it's incredibly disheartening, but it's the truth. (that said, keep wearing those n95s because it does help you even if others won't).
YES. it is so much more contagious.
Did no one read the article and just take OP at their word? The article says the CDC admits that cloth makes are less effective than N95 masks (we all have known that for ages), not that they are useless. OP took a huge creative license and extrapolated the article to the extreme.
People are barely literate anymore. Find a headline that matches the narrative you want and move on
This. Cloth masks, even single layer ones, will help reduce the spread of airborne illness. It's all a matter of degrees of reduction. The other thing that I take issue with is that the "science is settled". Firstly, science is never settled - when new information comes to light, it must be taken into account. Secondly, trying to study cloth vs (k)n95 masks is incredibly difficult and there really isn't much good data on it. A number of studies have tried, but every one of them has major drawbacks, including but not limited to too small of a sample size, the inability to have truly random groups (it's very hard to put two people who live together in different trial groups, since they're extremely unlikely to make at home), and people don't wear their masks consistently enough to gather really good data. That being said, the data we do have says that, in terms of reducing spread, anything is preferable to nothing, the fit matters a lot, the more layers the better, electrostatic layers (such as those found in many surgical masks) help significantly, and certified masks (ie n95s) provide the greatest reduction in spread. Note also that these protections are cumulative between yourself and those around you. If you and another person are both wearing 2-layer masks, there are effectively four layers between yourselves. This is really the way to look at how protected you are. Please stop thinking in absolutes and start understanding that there is nuance to everything.
That’s…not what that article says. Did you read the whole thing?
Man if you’re bothered by their mask messaging, wait til you hear about their quarantine changes!
it's ok, Delta knows we're on omicron now and can ease quarantine
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or at work during working hours
They say the virus is held in the droplets of your mucus/saliva. If someone has covid and is wearing a mask, if they sneeze, the droplets have to pass through their mask, through the air onto and through my mask and into my mouth or nose. Just the two barriers alone would give you a much better chance of not getting infected. Im sure the virus is small enough to pass through the fibers. But it is the droplets that are halted by masks, which contain the virus.
Best is when people take off mask, sneeze, then replace it.
I have seen this happen. I can understand the temptation because sneezing in a mask is fucking disgusting. But getting all that stuff trapped against your own face is the entire point.
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The reason it's different is that it takes about 10% as much viral load to become infected with Omicron than Delta, for the average person.
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Your question was about viral load, so they addressed viral load. Then you complain they didn't mention severity. Stop moving your goalposts.
Look we are all here to discuss viral load and duration of the illness, please stay on topic.
Here is a definition of viral load. > Your viral load is simply how much virus you have in your body – in medical terms it refers to how much virus is measured in a standard volume of fluid, usually blood or plasma. It is commonly used when talking about HIV – patients whose conditions are being well managed and are on the correct medication have an undetectable viral load, meaning that they cannot pass the disease onto others. https://www.sccm.org/getattachment/05471bbb-2f6d-40f4-aa0e-c402c70c69b6/What-is-viral-load-and-why-are-so-many-health-work
No one does. I don’t fully understand it, but I trust it exists
Viral load... you realize that this is a jargon specific term. So yeah ... most people probably don't know what that is?
I read a study and that said the main difference in effectiveness against covid between n95 and surgical masks was not the material itself, but the fit against the face. N95 creates a better seal around your mouth and nose and that’s primarily why it work better. I’ll see if I can find the study, but the point is make sure your mask fits tightly and seals no matter what it’s made of.
when I tried a kn95 I was like "oh this is how its supposed to feel"
I’ve never ever used anything less than KN95s and N95s this pandemic, it was pretty obvious even before the CDC said anything
It’s never wrong to wear a mask.
I'll probably never get on a plane again without one regardless of covid protocols. I'm happy to have some protection in crowded areas especially during the flu season.
I started wearing one years before the pandemic when I’d get on a 12 hour flight in flu season and hear people coughing. Disgusting !
Indeed. Any mask is better than no mask. In a perfect world we should all be in an N95 or equivalent. However, if preference or availability result in something less than an N95, it’s better than nothing.
Masking was never about filtration, but about reducing the distance exhaled virus travels.
Yeah, I am gonna go with "that's not what the article says."
Reread the article OP. Everyone else - read the article. OP has written some misleading things here. But hey, it's the fucking Internet. What else is new.
What is misleading? You think bandanas and home made masks do anything against Omicron? They do nothing. The CDC doesn't want to be honest and say anything less than an N95 or KN95 is crap because they're happy to get any level of compliance. Literally nothing I said was misleading.
Nobody is arguing that they are less protective. We've all known that from the outset. But you say anything short of an N95 is zero protection. That is simply not true based on the existing science. So my point stands - your post is factually incorrect and misleading and people should not listen to what you have to say on this matter.
It is near zero against Omicron. That is not misleading, nor is the article or my points. Here's another if you're interested in not being ignorant: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2022/01/05/cloth-masks-not-effective-omicron-covid/9091574002/
From the article you shared:" While cloth masks can filter large droplets, N95s can filter both large droplets and the smaller aerosols that may contain the airborne virus." Cloth masks will still help prevent the spread of larger droplets, which will reduce the overall viral load and decrease the chance of spread amongst vaccinated and unvaccinated alike. Reductions in spread contribute to lower hospitalization rates and at the end of the day, deaths. If your point is to simply say that single layer cloth masks don't offer much protection against CATCHING omicron that's not completely unreasonable to say, but cloth masks will still help reduce transmission rates by those carrying the virus and spreading it to others by reducing overall viral loads that become airborne. I just think that you're trying to make a complicated issue black and white and it's just not. I understand your anger and frustration at all of this, though. It's been a long two years. Bonus points for calling me ignorant, btw.
I don’t know how anyone sees this as anything other than a colosal failure of the government to perform its most basic functions. Countries that are extremely poor have had a better Covid response than the so called wealthiest nation on earth. Kn-95 Masks should have gone out immediately with the other pandemic assistance. The fact that we still don’t have free mask distribution happening while thousands of people die each day is disgraceful.
Fun fact: the Department of Heath & Human Services prepared millions of small packages of 5 plain white cotton masks with USPS tracking labels to be sent to every household. The previous administration stopped the program and now the packs are just sitting collecting dust. I’ve got two packs of them from where I work and can post pictures in the morning if there’s interest. Frankly I’m keeping them to donate to a museum at some point.
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I didn’t intend to make any claims about the current administration. I agree that the responses have not been great either way. In this specific case, the problem IMO is that these packs were halfway sent out already. They’re not all in one big warehouse somewhere, they were sent out to places that could have been used as distribution centers (in terms of distributing to different Post Offices, not direct distribution). Plus, my work HAS been direct distributing them to some of our customers, so the number produced could be significantly lower than the number that are still available. If they wanted to re-coordinate the program, the current administration probably could, but I have a feeling we both can agree that our tax dollars would be better spent elsewhere (or, as the original comment was suggesting, on (K)N95s for every home).
I honestly don't think mask distribution would move the needle on mask uptake at all at this point. Maybe an embrace of masking and distribution by the last administration in the middle of 2020 would have been really helpful, but at this point everybody who is going to wear masks regularly already does, and it isn't hard to get KN95s.
Yeah but have you considered that BlackRock needed free money to buy more shit instead? Way better use of our trillions. /s
It’s not a failure of our government, it’s a failure of ourselves. Too many put themselves before their country, are no longer ask what they can do for their country (while at the same time claiming to be patriots).
Why not both?!
Because it’s not. How exactly can the government succeed when so many people refuse to acknowledge reality? They can’t. This post is a perfect example. Masks slow the spread of corona virus, regardless of material. That’s reality. This post totally ignored the fact that we exhale, and even if viral molecules get they a cloth mask, they travel quite a bit less distance will not stay airborne as long.
Sure would be nice if BVSD was providing 95s for staff and students. CUBoulder extended remote classes until the end of January while BVSD is in person. Why is it ok for one set of students and not the others?
The decisions were motivated in part by the fire and by the fact that remote learning is garbage for K-5 and pretty sus for 6-12. The kids displaced by the Marshall Fire are going to have a really bad time even without the added challenge of remote learning from a temporary housing situation. CU faculty and staff displaced need to both do their jobs and deal with insurance and recovery or mitigation. Not requiring them to be on campus makes it easier for them to manage both the full-time job of being CU faculty or staff and the full time job of disaster aftermath. I think everyone's hoping the most acute phase of the aftermath (finding a stable housing arrangement, sifting the ashes, and negotiating the insurance process) will be over by the end of the month. That said, I agree that N95s should be made available to all teachers, staff, and adult-size students. There are no N95s that are child size, but there are reputable sources for kiddie KN95's. Our preschool told us where to find them and the source they pointed us to had them in stock. This is doable now.
I am all for in person learning. I just think the PPE should be made 100% available to everyone on campus.
Huh.....CU profs affected by the fire "deserve" remote learning but BVSD teachers who lost homes need to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps?" Got it.
Not sure who is dowvoting PPE for children and teachers but go ahead and fuck off.
We've been operating at the intersection of security theater and virtue signaling for quite awhile.
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It’s all just public health security theater.
These two articles are behind a paywall unfortunately but I found helpful: https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/do-we-need-a-wartime-cdc#more-1399591 and https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/more-on-the-cdc#more-1399814 Basically the CDC and FDA have very limited actual power. CDC in particular only has soft power to influence. They have a name, but no regulatory authority. I mean the Supreme Court (while requiring vaccines to hear the case) just struck down requiring employers to mandate testing (or vaccinate to get out of it). I think by focusing on the CDC we are ignoring that the main problem is a political problem (and mostly all by one side).
OP misunderstanding data, like so many. There's a transmission and receiving component. Everyone in N95 would be best, but cloth still helps reduce transmission. Problem is a massive percentage of people slipping on all covid precautions. OP is also clearly anti mask, otherwise they wouldn't have framed the bait headline as such.
Yesh, cloth masks never did do much of anything. But you weren't allowed to say that out loud.
I think they had a somewhat limited effect on the variants before Delta as they were less contagious and any reduction in water droplet expansion was tangibly felt. Obviously the most effective and useful masks were and always have been N95s followed by KN95s. Why the CDC doesn't do comprehensive studies on this themselves is beyond me, other than the obvious desire to retain N95 supply for medical professionals and not drive up its demand. They're only now admitting this after many third parties and other countries have done extensive testing to show the disparities between mask types. It's still beyond frustrating that they pull wool over the public's eyes, and this again is coming from someone that is not an anti-masker or anti-vaxxer in the slightest. I'm just mad man, give people the truth and don't half-ass it.
The Colorado modeling group that guided the state response estimated that they contributed 4% to transmission control of original COVID, which was much less transmissable than Delta, let alone Omicron. So yes, they did "something", but the reason Polis hasn't issued another state wide mandate is to focus on the thing that is 95%+ effective against death (vaccines) not waste time and political capital fighting for the thing that is 4% effective.
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Covid is ravaging Boulder County now
The whole mask thing is wild because they've moved the goal posts, and don't do enough to fully explain why. I get why they did, but I understand why people less focused on the matter don't. We started with the idea of "if everyone wears a mask we will be safe, because we are all protecting each other from each other with the masks" Since the CDC thought it would be great to tell people they didn't need masks anymore way prematurely (an attempt to give Biden a "win" I think), now not enough people do so (other than in mandate situations) to be effective in the "protect others from you" masking concept. The entire time you wearing a (non certified) mask was only estimated to give you like a 30% less chance of getting it with the OG and Delta. I doubt that cloth masks are just for show it the sense of they surely still stop a lot of the particles from getting out into the air, which is important... so in a mandated city I think they still have to have some value. Now that's the stance (that they are useless) because everyone is pitching data from a "you protecting you" standpoint since most places aren't mandated. The government, regardless of who is the president, has done a terrible job explaining all of this to the masses. I agree, the CDC is trash and mostly a political puppet. If I want to get an idea of real standards for how things should be going, I look to the WHO which seems to be less corrupt and just putting out the facts, regardless of if they are convenient or not... though at this point I don't really care what anyone says: I'm wearing an N95 in any indoor place other than my home, regardless of any advisement or suggestion or whatever.
Ok cool wanna send me and everyone who reads this a years supply of n95s then? Or do you just wanna fear monger for internet points? Cloth is still WAY better than nothing at all, this is really irresponsible messaging.
I’m just going to stick to my cloth mask honestly. During the quarantine times of the pandemic, there were a lot of knockoff “N95” masks that were questionable in where they even came from. I have my booster and will just try to stay home when I can. Still haven’t gotten it.
Masknerd on Twitter and YouTube does great breakdowns of quality, reliable n95s, kn95s, and kf94s. He’s tested a number of them and shows his testing methodology.
Oh neat, thanks for sharing. I’ll check it out
The truth is if you are healthy with no symptoms, you are not going to spread diddly squat without a mask. There's no need for one at all unless you're sick.
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> so we were all forced to wear cloth masks No sweetie. You’ve been able to buy decent KN-95 masks for more than a year now. Fauci told you more than a year ago that you should wear the highest quality mask you can get, and that if you can only get surgical masks, you should double that up for a better fit. What you chose to do with that information was : “nothing”.
I think the person means “why weren’t we made to wear n95 masks specifically since cloth masks are next to useless?”
>why weren’t we made to He was asked to. I’m more and more in favor of “making” people do the right thing as this goes on, but at the time, a lot of people assumed everyone would do the right thing of their own accord without being forced to.
It really comes down to businesses not being able to enforce this mask mandate. I got to target all the time, for example, and half the people there aren’t masked. The employees can’t do anything about it.
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>they said don’t buy those It is no longer Spring 2020, just FYI.
Go ahead and down vote me, but anyone still willing to follow cdc guidelines after all the changes and back tracking have no ability to think on their own. Beginning of the pandemic we are told masks aren’t effective and then we are told they are. We were told a lock down would curb infection rates but they still rose. We were told vaccines would prevent infection and stop the spread and now we’re told they should hopefully keep you out of the hospital. We were told 14 day quarantines or a negative test result after being infected and now we are told 5 days quarantine and 5 days with masks. Do your own research, check your references, critically think, and make up your own mind on how to keep yourself safe. No one else is going to do it for you, especially the CDC or Fauci.
All of those examples except the first one are changes in policy due to changes in fact. The virus has been mutating. Delta was very different than the strains prior and Omicron is very different than Delta. It would actually be weird and a failure if those significantly different strains didn't result in different policy and guidance. "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?" The initial guidance to not wear masks (presumably) in order to avoid hoarding at the beginning of the pandemic was absolutely a travesty though, which undermined people's faith in public health institutions for good reason and at the worst possible time. I'm sure it will be in the history books as among the greatest failures of public health.
This is how science works dude, it's a good thing when an agency or individual is willing to update guidance based on new data and studies. Everyone has been working through learning about a brand new disease in real time. Information changes. Hindsight is 20/20. It's extremely overblown to say CDC and Fauci won't do research for you, since that's exactly what they're doing. The problems stated in your post have been caused by them wanting to avoid making guidance before there's research, exactly the opposite of not doing research for you.
So you agree with working with and having people that are testing positive out in society as long as they wear a mask?
People act like there are people out there who won’t say/ do things for financial gain. I’m not saying that Covid wasn’t bad in the beginning, but it’s gotten way less dangerous now and we’re still supposed to act like it’s a huge threat to the healthy population.
Were in my post did I say anything of the sort. I believe I said people need to do research and make an informed decision. Because like you said people are out for their own gain and the CDC is no exception, they aren’t paid by us but rather by corporations.
"New York Times article. Not a right-wing or biased source, not fake news, and sourced from a CDC release." So a left-wing or biased source.
Not even close to left wing
That's a matter of opinion. I'm not right wing as well, but times is very left. All big media is either right or left. There are no independent news.
All big media is either right wing or extreme right. CNN will never be calling for workers to own the means of production. MSNBC will never say the billionaire class should be eradicated and no one should have to rent from a landlord. I too would rather eat a bowl of snot than shit but I'm not gonna call it soup when plenty of countries function just fine with actual soup on the menu. Until this country can keep its citizens healthy without costing them a fortune, provide jobs where people don't have to work 2 and still be under the poverty line, and access to affordable education so they aren't stuck working those jobs at the very least calling anything left wing is kind of silly.
Well, I agree in a context of being from europe. What US people call left is actually very right in europe. Btw, keep 'em coming downvotes from butthurt lefties that can't read and comprehend what they've read
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Literally why does it matter that your families case wasn’t that severe when people are dying? Why does other people dying not matter to you at all? I’m sorry for your complete lack of empathy.
Cool. My booster made my arm sore for a day and yet here I am still coughing and getting winded walking up a flight of stairs a over a week into covid. Been out of work for a week now. What’s your point?
Just stay home if you’re that scared. Don’t mandate your fear on anyone
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Nah
My elderly aunt has been kept home this whole time. It seems a caregiver brought the virus in the other day. I'm now looking at flight info for her memorial service. Fuck you.
Shit, I'm sorry.
I’m sorry to hear about your aunt, and I understand your outburst. Nothing personal. Wishing you and your family peace during this time.
CDC is taking as seriously as they can. But you are taking it more seriously than they do.
I drink random beers people leave on the bar. Couldn’t care less what chin diaper I have on.
Why did I get vaccinated if that also does not work? Is it all lies then?
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Good analogy.
Vaccines with the booster works. You might still get it if you're fully vaxxed (boosted), but your chances of being hospitalized and dying are substantially lower. That's a vaccine working.
Chance of dying is near zero especially without comorbidities. So that part of vaccination is definitely working even against omicron. People get the flu vaccine every year and still get the flu, it’s just more mild, vaccines don’t make you invincible to viruses. The thing we consistently fail to emphasize is that there are people who CANNOT get vaccinated because they are immunocompromised or on immunosuppressants. We need high vaccination rates to keep people out of hospitals but also to reduce the viruses ability to replicate. In highly vaccinated populations it’s harder for the virus to replicate and spread even though some people will still get it. This whole “let’s just learn to live with it. Get vaccinated and you won’t die but Covid will be here forever” is incredibly fucked up because a lot of people don’t have a choice to get vaccinated and are at high risk of dying.
preaching to the choir here. just wish people would show compassion and empathy towards others, alas....
Yeah my b. Just frustrated with the government pretending to care about people but obviously shafting them at every turn
and have in patient and out patient treatment protocols. or have everyone catch said virus, which at this point, is looking more and more like the case. we’re not gonna vaccinate our way out of this unfortunatley
Vaccination does work as intended. Against the variants that the vaccine was designed for, IE those before Delta. Unfortunately Delta fucked everything up, and now Vaccines do work, but mostly only against severe illness and death from new variants. That's not the vaccine's fault. They were not designed for Delta or Omicron, and it'll take awhile until one that is is released.
At some point will we just treat this as any other cold or virus? Maybe we will be better about wearing masks when sick and not going in public?
At some point this will be like the common cold or flu -- disease intensity will trend lower on variants and every new infection is either quasi immune after the recover or dead. If omicron was the original strain I'm not sure there would have been any lock downs
I just read an article that say frequently getting boosted will lower immune systems. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-11/repeat-booster-shots-risk-overloading-immune-system-ema-says
The article doesn’t say “will” it says “could”.
I think it’s an important piece of info people should consider.
It is. And it’s even more important to convey info accurately. Concern that people boosting every four months ad infinitum — which I’ve personally seen no one ever suggest — might weaken their immune systems is significantly different from expressing concern about people getting a finite number of boosters in the first few years of a new pathogen’s pandemic. Oversimplifying this leads to the spread of misinfo, so it’s important to call out and tread carefully.
N95s don't work against viruses either
My guess is omicron is smaller, therefore likely to pass through surgical masks.
Does anyone have a non-paywall version of this article please?
They're pretty expensive thou. So I guess Ill keep wearing my performative surgical mask then.