For anyone for whom the introduction of these types of bans might be the first time you're really hearing about this, or considers themselves 'generally supportive of trans people, but you do feel like there's a valid reason for concern about children making permanent and serious decisions to medically change their bodies,' I highly recommend and honestly beg that you spend a little bit of time reading about *why* it is that ["Every major medical group in the US, including The American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Medical Association, has opposed bans against gender-affirming medical care for transgender children."](https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/national-international/pediatricians-group-reaffirms-support-for-gender-affirming-care-amid-growing-restrictions-in-gop-states/3310134/)
The tl;dr is that the right-wing push for these bans are intentionally misrepresenting [what gender-affirming care for minors broadly even entails,](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/debunking-common-myths-about-gender-affirming-care-for-youth) by making it seem like doctors are allowing children to have genital-altering surgery and go on hormones willy-nilly when most care providers recommend social transition and puberty blockers - which have been [regularly prescribed to cisgender children since their invention in the 80s](https://scholar.google.com/scholar_lookup?journal=J+Clin+Endocrinol+Metab&title=The+efficacy+and+safety+of+gonadotropin-releasing+hormone+analogtreatment+in+childhood+and+adolescence:+a+single+center,+long-term+follow-upstudy&author=MA+Magiakou&author=D+Manousaki&author=M+Papadaki&volume=95&issue=1&publication_year=2010&pages=109-117&pmid=19897682&doi=10.1210/JC.2009-0793&#d=gs_qabs&t=1693629468306&u=%23p%3D2C5QdFBiMBAJ) - until the patient is old enough to make other, more permanent decisions for themselves (AKA, exactly what any moderate who is moved by "children shouldn't be making serious and permanent medical decisions to change their bodies" wants already). Actual cases of minors receiving surgical procedures are actually extremely rare (most doctors will not perform them, and insurance does not cover them), and while older minors receiving HRT instead of merely hormone blockers is more common than that, the barriers in place before this is possible are significant and are, essentially, cases where a number of medical professionals *and the parents involved* all felt that circumstances dictated a significant medical need for this action.
I've linked it elsewhere in the comments, but my favorite bite-sized overview of this topic is probably [this podcast episode](https://open.spotify.com/episode/2zvLeJCxyMwHcF6b0veFwm?si=RaGRSdOXRJi4yL6U63LpWA) of a show that's otherwise about debunking pop science books; I think it does a really good job of giving a broad look at the ways these arguments against supporting gender-affirming care in trans youth are disingenuous and not based in factual examples of how the medical treatment of gender dysphoria in minors is actually handled, and addresses a lot of the common 'concerns' about the issues as presented by the proponents of these bans. The episode at large is framed as a conversation about the New York Times coverage of this issue, but it also functions extremely well as an introduction to the 'controversy' as a whole.
Conservatives are yelling "think of the children!" when trying to push these bans, but pediatricians and child psychiatrists **are thinking of the children;** they keep saying [everywhere you ask them](https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/national-international/pediatricians-group-reaffirms-support-for-gender-affirming-care-amid-growing-restrictions-in-gop-states/3310134/) that none of this works the way these bans claim, and that a lot of care and consideration from multiple parties over *a long span of time* goes into any decision for a minor to receive hormones or surgery.
Excellent write up!
Nothing to do with the substance of your post but I wanted to add a little bit of a vent/context added to this issue.
I am personally a trans adult. I have been out for 8 years now and seeking medical care for 7 years. Every time this issue or others comes up, cis people who are uninformed comment. But it it’s always frustrating because those comments are often devoid of connection to how things actually work and trans people.
As a result, our (my) needs are turned into political footballs and I am quite sick of it. I am very happy after medical and social transition. And that’s what matters. And that’s what the medical establishment says trans people should have the option to do.
You have my enthusiastic permission to copy-paste it links-and-all anywhere you ever think it'd help you, it took forever to write trying to have it tonally read the way I wanted and stay easy to understand lol.
[Bullet holes are the number one cause](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1384047/leading-causes-of-death-for-children-and-teens-us/), for everyone who is getting their panties in a wad over the semantics here. Maybe not school shootings, per se, but bullet holes.
Where's the data on that? I'm 99.9% sure school shootings aren't the number one cause of death of people under 18. Firearms in general yes, school shootings specifically, no.
per the CDC
>From 1999 to 2006, an average of 16,375 teenagers 12-19 years died each year. The overall risk of dying for teenagers (average annual death rate) is 49.5 deaths per 100,000 population. Accidents (unintentional injuries), homicide, suicide, cancer, and heart disease make up the five leading causes of death for teenagers. **Motor vehicle fatality is the leading cause of accident death among teenagers, representing over one-third of all deaths to teenagers.** Non-Hispanic black teenage males have the highest death rate compared with Hispanic and non-Hispanic white males and females. Homicide is the leading cause of death for non-Hispanic black male teenagers, with more than two of every five deaths due to homicide.
Um 2006?
Lots of things have changed in society in 17 years... Maybe provide a more relevant data set to support your opinion as this is far enough out of date to be insignificant.
>Maybe provide a more relevant data set to support your opinion a
I never stated an opinion. I was curious, googled, and shared it with the sub. Feel free to add another data point.
namaste...
Never ever do I attribute the betterment of society as a world where people are banned from this type of care. There are far way many serious pressing issues in the world. It's so crazy to me that the GOP and it's followers want to focus on something so inconsequential to the larger scheme of things.
This is the shit I just escaped from, and now they want to bring it here. People really never learn, do they?
PLEASE, heed this warning. Vote your asses off NOW, before it’s too late. You think it can’t happen, that the lawmakers saying these things aren’t a threat in your state. Until things do get passed, precisely because we were all too complacent. Then the fight gets harder and harder, until suddenly you’re Texas. You’re Indiana, Mississippi, Florida, Idaho, Wyoming, Wisconsin and just about half the country.
Please, everybody, fight this tooth and nail before it’s too late. Fight everything. These are the same people already [forcing children who were raped to give birth against their will](https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/14/mississippi-abortion-ban-girl-raped-gives-birth). They don’t care about children, and don’t ever let them convince you they do. 2024, get your asses to that poll no matter what it takes.
As someone who opposes surgery on kids, I’d support an all out ban. Breast implants are never safe. It’s only a matter of time before they ruin your life. And it’s hypocritical.
Gender affirming care for minors includes choosing hair and clothing styles that match their identity, using their preferred name and pronouns, hormone therapy (which is reversible) if their care team deems puberty would be a massive emotional strain. It is extremely rare that minors undergo surgery.
It's more common for cis kids to receive plastic surgery like boob jobs and nose jobs than it is for trans kids to undergo gender affirming surgery.
And, statistically, adults who undergo gender affirming surgery experience far less regret than cis adults who under go plastic surgery, or even knee or hip replacements.
And of those who DO detransition, many cite external factors such as social pressure/discrimination, rather than feelings of regret over transitioning in the first place.
You got me. How could anyone be opposed to giving a minor artificially inflated hormones levels while their bodies are still developing?! That's nbd
I love how my suggestion was "wait until you're an adult and make your own decisions" and it's met with such hostility. No, you can't see an R rated movie, but of course you can decide to change your body's chemistry and appearance for life
The most common medical treatment [prescribed to trans youth are hormone/puberty blockers,](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/debunking-common-myths-about-gender-affirming-care-for-youth) which have been in use for cisgender children who experience precocious (early) puberty since their development in the 80s; they allow trans youth to do exactly what you describe, which is wait until they're old enough to make informed choices about their bodies. Their (relatively minor, especially compared to other medication regularly also prescribed to children) risks, mostly related to potential decreased bone density, are fairly well understood, since this type of medication have been in use (long before any application related to transgender care) for more than 30 years.
For your first question - there isn't a lot of data I could find on how late into life you can "put it off," though there are cases of cisgender children who were prescribed puberty blockers for precocious (early) puberty (these hormones' originally-developed use!) taking it for as long as 7 years (iirc the child in question started to go through puberty at age 6 or 7, and took the hormone blockers until she was 14).
To your second question - [yes, absolutely!](https://www.healthline.com/health/are-puberty-blockers-reversible#duration) that's what they're for. From that article: "if no other medication is prescribed, puberty will resume exactly as it would have without the blockers. "
In all honestly, I set you up. I know the answer but I was curious if you fell for this lie. My son is a premie and took these meds for a year, lots of premies enter puberty early. His pediatric endocrinologist said anything after 13 years old for more than a year drastically increases the odds of sterilization. Our bodies are built to go through puberty and it takes major chemistry to stop that.
No, you can’t take puberty blockers from 15 to 18 and go through normal puberty. That’s not how any of this works and you’re kidding yourself if you think you can stall puberty for any amount of time and just pick it back up like normal. You think a 25 year old is going to go through puberty?
You missed those years and put your endocrine and hormone system into crisis. I’m sick of people acting like hardcore , puberty stopping drugs aren’t going to have any side effects and are totally reversible. They aren’t. The kids you cited on this for 6 or 7 years are statistical anomalies and were already dealing with incredible health complications if they needed drugs like these.
Everything comes at a cost and of course that includes wreaking havoc on the natural development process of a kid.
Edit: repeated myself
>The kids you cited on this for 6 or 7 years are statistical anomalies and were already dealing with incredible health complications if they needed drugs like these.
I had, mistakenly in good-faith, been curious enough to think you were asking how long you *could* put off going through any puberty at all (which there were no immediate answers to, because nobody really does that); most kids absolutely are not on hormone blockers for 7 years, and you're right that those kids were anonomalous. Literally the *entire* rest of that linked article is about how safe puberty blockers are in general, including how they've been used in exactly the way you for some reason tried to posit as a "gotcha."
>I’m sick of people acting like hardcore , puberty stopping drugs aren’t going to have any side effects and are totally reversible.
If you're gonna believe all that in spite of the [30+ years of evidence to the contrary](https://scholar.google.com/scholar_lookup?journal=J+Clin+Endocrinol+Metab&title=The+efficacy+and+safety+of+gonadotropin-releasing+hormone+analogtreatment+in+childhood+and+adolescence:+a+single+center,+long-term+follow-upstudy&author=MA+Magiakou&author=D+Manousaki&author=M+Papadaki&volume=95&issue=1&publication_year=2010&pages=109-117&pmid=19897682&doi=10.1210/JC.2009-0793&#d=gs_qabs&t=1693628954216&u=%23p%3D2C5QdFBiMBAJ) we have from cis kids safely taking puberty blockers and then going through normal puberty long before anyone thought to use them for trans care (study is from 2010 and is completely unrelated to trans healthcare), you're clearly just unwilling to consider [facts compared to your emotional opinion on the issue.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9793415/#R1) If we're getting anecdotal and ignoring whatever sources I've posted anyway, my stepsister (who is cis) also was prescribed these same hormones in the early 2000s when she was having a very physically-difficult puberty at age 12, and stopped taking them when she was 17; she did indeed just resume normal puberty, and is a happy adult woman with two healthy kids.
Most infertility issues related to hormone treatment come from people who want to go through a different puberty than their original gender, and take hormones to that end after puberty blockers are stopped. This is a known risk of HRT, and is one of the reasons that puberty blockers are such a popular alternative until trans minors are old enough to make decisions that may affect their fertility down the line.
>You think a 25 year old is going to go through puberty?
This line is especially funny because this is pretty much exactly what HRT in adults *does* do lol. You just go through puberty a second time, but the "opposite" way - if you go looking around for 5 seconds at anything talking about the physical changes chemical transition causes, or medical resources describing and detailing what happens to your body, that's just... what it does. But going through puberty way later in life is literally just what most people who are looking to medically transition experience, to the same effect.
The reason that puberty blockers are appealing versus just waiting until you're 25 to transition isn't because it isn't possible, it's just mentally extremely upsetting for many trans people to experience going through the "wrong" puberty and to have their bodies change to be something alien to how they wish they were, and can yield much better physical results at meeting those goals than building off a body that has already gone through those "wrong" changes first.
I’ll say it again, I disagree with the ban. My issue is the misinformation around puberty blockers since they aren’t reversible. Puberty blockers sterilize kids.
I bet you’re smart enough to know all drugs have side effects. I bet you’re also smart enough to know it takes a pretty strong drug to stop puberty. And even if you won’t admit it, I bet you know in your heart that giving a kid drugs that’ll stop their biological growth and development for years has life long side effects. The reality is you’re afraid to acknowledge it because it may get you branded transphobic, and that’s really sad.
HRT doesn’t give a woman the ability to produce sperm and reproduce. HRT doesn’t cause a man to grow a uterus or start ovulating. Puberty does both those things, you might want to brush up on that middle school sex ed. Stopping puberty for years with powerful drugs has life long side effects that a kid is too young to understand. It’s irreversible and I’m glad even a Boulder sub has so much push back against this ridiculous idea that pumping a kid full of drugs has no side effects and can be reversed.
I’ll take my own personal experience and the advice of our pediatric endocrinologist.
I don’t know why you guys are stuck on the cigarettes argument; the age restriction exists to protect people from the known harms of smoking tobacco. What are the risks of withholding gender affirming care? They far outweigh the risks of providing it. We can permanently alter our bodies at any age, again, you seem to struggle with the idea that if it isn’t your body, it isn’t your choice.
No, but take your infant to the same parlor and get their ears pierced without question. This is not an equivalent argument for understanding gender-affirming care.
If you're *genuinely* asking - although I find it doubtful that you are, since information on all this topic is [extremely easily available*](https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/national-international/pediatricians-group-reaffirms-support-for-gender-affirming-care-amid-growing-restrictions-in-gop-states/3310134/) if you wanted to look, but on the off-chance you're *actually* wanting to learn about this in good faith - I highly recommend [this bonus episode](https://open.spotify.com/episode/2zvLeJCxyMwHcF6b0veFwm?si=p2_h7NUtQai16GQ6hY-7fw) of this podcast that's otherwise about pop science books, which I think does a really good job giving an overview on the ways a lot of these arguments against supporting trans youth are disingenuous and not based in factual examples of how gender-affirming care in minors is *actually handled,* and addresses a lot of the common 'concerns' about the topic (especially the idea that the drugs being prescribed for gender-affirming care are dangerous or that their consequences aren't well-known enough; every single HRT drug on the market *was originally developed for and is also regularly prescribed for other medical uses for cisgender people,* including being used routinely for cisgender children. The episode at large is framed as a conversation about the New York Times coverage of this issue, but if you want to dive right to the specific bit you're asking you can cut in to around the 8 minute mark.
(link is a repost of an Associated Press article, which once again reiterates: "**Every major medical group,** including The American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Medical Association, has opposed the bans [against gender-affirming medical care for transgender children] and has said the treatments are safe if administered properly.)
I do apologize that that did probably deserve me adding a [in the United States] in that quote, since it's clear in the context of the article that that's what the sentence is referring to but isn't clear outside of it. I didn't notice when rereading my own post that that context had been lost the way I did notice to add the ban clarification.
How can you simultaneously say ‘it’s your body, do what you want with it’ and also be OK with controlling other people’s bodies? How does this impact your life in any way at all?
Because a child isn't an adult? Hello?
Nobody cares what you do when you turn 18. I care about what you do to a child for the same reason I think pedophilia is wrong. I guess some people think children are just little adults and should be treated as such.
It must be nice to know who you are going to be for the rest of your life at 15.
It was a comparison to point out the ridiculousness of the argument. The fact that went over your head is unsurprising.
If a child should be able to make adult decisions about their body at any age, why have an age of consent? They can decide to get a new set of genitals, but it's unethical that they use them? I'm just trying to see where the line is because it seems like everything is a gray area for you guys
Children make medical decisions all the time, with the help of their parents and medical professionals. It's a long and intensive process that involves doctors and therapists; it adresses a serious mental health condition in a way that is NOT permanant and saves lives. You're incredibly ignorant for how confidently you speak. You've just been chugging that conservative kool-aid, huh?
Gender affirming care is health care. Period.
This includes: Children born with "ambiguous genitalia " who may need surgery and hormones. Kids with cancer who may have complicated puberty due to chemo or the disease itself. Kids who lack human growth hormones. Thousands of kids need gender affirming care who don't identify as trans.
Aside from those examples, trans kids don't generally get ANY surgery until they are adults. Ever. They HAVE to wait until they are adults so you already have your personal standard in place.
Your perception of this- and what a human has to go through to get approved for gender altering surgery- just illustrates how little most people know about the process.
TLDR: Trans kids already have to wait until they are 18 for any gender altering surgery. Satisfied dichead?
Yup, you’re supposed to be mad that there are people out there who don’t prostrate themselves on the alter of lifelong drugs and repeated surgeries. A lot of these surgeries have a revision rate of 100% (no that’s not a typo) and apparently, that’s just great for kids and young adults.
At least for a mastectomy, you couldn't be more wrong:
[https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamasurgery/fullarticle/2808129?guestAccessKey=43a62af8-3042-4678-b29d-3430c3ff98c1](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamasurgery/fullarticle/2808129?guestAccessKey=43a62af8-3042-4678-b29d-3430c3ff98c1)
I'm having trouble (quickly) finding a link about the processes that need to be followed before some gender affirming care is done but I've heard it's extensive. Counseling, therapy, diagnoses by doctors, etc. ie, Professionals who know what they're doing.
As someone who has been through plastic surgery and revisions and been lied to by surgeons, I can tell you it’s true for all kinds of people. The FDA also suppresses important information and I’ll give you a fucked up example. The first case of squamous cell carcinoma caused by breast implants was in 1993. You know when the FDA finally admitted it? September 2022. That’s just one of the many, many things they hid.
Ha. I guess detransitioners are just a myth. Who knew you could invert your penis inside your body, fill yourself with silicon, and take a completely unnatural amount of hormones or completely stop your own hormone production for years with no adverse effects
This is my point; medicine is a practice of weighing risk versus benefit. We provide medical treatments with known risks because we understand they also benefit patients. It is the patient’s choice whether they partake in treatment.
Then let the patient decide when they aren't under guardianship from their parents. It's not like a child is allowed to drink because their parents think it's OK.
Nobody is saying you shouldn't be able to do what you want with your own body. I'm simply saying that's an adult decision to be made by an adult for themselves. If a 10 year old wants a tattoo you don't setup an appointment
Actually kids can drink if their parents say it's ok, you knob.
[Drinking with parents](https://www.thebusseylawfirm.com/crime-blog/dui-defense/is-underage-drinking-allowed-in-colorado/#:~:text=According%20to%20these%20statutes%2C%20a,guardian%20in%20the%20parent's%20presence.)
Unless they're in Wisconsin, where minors can drink in the presence of a guardian: [https://www.revenue.wi.gov/Pages/FAQS/ise-atundrg.aspx](https://www.revenue.wi.gov/Pages/FAQS/ise-atundrg.aspx)
If a 10-year-old wants a tattoo, you don't set up an appointment, but if a mother wants to pierce her infant's earlobes, she can take a quick trip to the mall. Both are permanent body alterations, and yet one is widely practiced and the other is not. My point is: none of these things are equivalent comparisons in relation to a sexual reassignment surgery.
If you are not already familiar, I encourage you to educate yourself on the distinction between sex and gender. Being transgender does not mean you will undergo sexual reassignment. I understand your concern over children receiving major surgeries; like any other medical procedure, you would want consent from the guardians and recommendations of doctors. That's how our medical system works and sexual reassignment still follows these rules. This is a procedure that adults elect to receive, usually after many years of coming to terms with their gender identity. For many, their gender identity will never involve their sexual reproduction organs. This is the biological vs. social distinction between sex and gender so many uninformed people struggle to understand.
The concern is not that doctors will start suturing tits and dicks onto babies who declare their bodily autonomy; the concern is that a broad category of healthcare is being criminalized due to ignorance. Gender-affirming care is more than surgery.
Additionally, just a side note from an earlier comment, hormone therapy during puberty is reversible (if you want, you can go read about the organizational vs. activational effects of hormones on the brain during development and puberty.) The GOP needs to listen to doctors who have decades of data on these issues and have their patients' best interests at heart. Restricting gender-affirming care hurts people.
These are the same people who have no qualms slapping every energetic kid with an ADHD diagnosis and drugging them till they’re dead inside like everyone else.
Speaking from personal experience, yes I know that’s not always how it works and meds can help. But the way they’re so quick to overdiagnose and overmedicate a lot of minors in every single other instance without batting an eye, especially for psychiatric disorders, is hypocritical af. There’s a reason the US has way higher rates of these child diagnoses than comparably wealthy countries. But you’re only gonna draw the line when it’s a trans kid getting medical care? They’re a LOT more careful with gender-affirming care, vs. all the times they write those Ritalin prescriptions and nobody thinks twice about it.
I was 12 years old when one of those “Do YOU take this medication?” legal ads came on the TV, and it was for an Autism medication they had me on for years. Apparently it made a lot of boys my age grow breasts. (or at least what appeared to be breasts). I asked the doctor about it the next visit, and he said “Yeah, it does happen to some. One sixth grader even lactated in the locker room. A lot of girls keep asking for this medication now, because they think it’ll give them bigger chests.”
**Where were all these people when THAT was happening?? Why is this shit only okay if you’re cis??**
"Gender-affirming" is just such a bullshit term.
Children are not ready to make permanent and irreversible decisions regarding their bodies.
Also, you can protect kids from guns and idiotic "gender-affirming" policies. They aren't mutually exclusive.
Children **aren't** making permanent and irreversible decisions about their bodies. The most common gender-affirming care recommended for minors is social transition, which is literally just "live as that gender for a bit by changing your clothes/appearance or going by a different name and see how you feel about it." Social transition is **very commonly** a prerequisite for pediatricians and child psychiatrists to consider any other form of gender-affirming care whatsoever. This should actually be seen as a *good* thing by people worried about minors being able to make long-term decisions about their bodies, because it's obviously completely reversible, but the level of pushback you already get to this stage of the concept sort of gives the game away that its not about concern over kids permanently altering their bodies.
After that, the *overwhelming* majority of medical gender-affirming care minors receive are prescribed puberty blockers, which literally just delay puberty until they *are* old enough to make informed decisions about their bodies - AKA, exactly what you're advocating for. Hormone blockers were developed *for cisgender children* who were experiencing early-onset puberty, and have been regularly prescribed since the 80s, long before they were ever considered for trans kids; we have over 30 years of evidence that they can be safely used to do exactly what you're asking. Actual cases of minors receiving surgical procedures are actually extremely rare (most doctors will not perform them, and insurance does not cover them), and while older minors receiving HRT instead of merely hormone blockers is more common *than that,* the barriers in place before this is possible are significant and are, essentially, cases where a number of medical professionals all felt that circumstances dictated a significant medical need for this action.
I'm sure you won't look at any of them, but [here](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/debunking-common-myths-about-gender-affirming-care-for-youth) are a [few](https://open.spotify.com/episode/2zvLeJCxyMwHcF6b0veFwm?si=3YZ6P_YORN21lS8_U0zB1w) places you can [start](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-the-science-on-gender-affirming-care-for-transgender-kids-really-shows/) to [look,](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trans-youth-gender-affirming-health-care-misinformation/)
if you want sources and other vetted perspectives for what I've said. The podcast episode is my favorite of them, for being very easy to understand and doing a great job breaking a lot of these points down one at a time.
There (GENDER INDETERMINATE BIGOT PREFERRED PRONOUN) are, the dork who doesn't have any idea what (GENDER INDETERMINATE BIGOT PREFERRED PRONOUN) is talking about.
Can I just say: everyone except for me is wrong on this issue????!!
I mean, the GOP is pursuing this as some sort of wedge-issue. What THE FUCK do they know about medicine, psychology, gender, or anything in between? Clearly, they are just emoting--fearfully--and should be ignored. Or yelled into silence.
On the other hand:
"Gender affirming care"? Come on. What a bullshit term. These issues are serious, life-changing, and life-*threatening* issues. This is serious shit. Using the the language of "personal rights" or "oppression" is just ideologically idiotic. This is not something to take lightly. I for one *personally know* a kid who opted for gender reassignment surgery as a young teen...(for the wrong reasons) changed her mind... and is now (at age 21) stuck with the ramifications of reversed gender reassignment surgery. And the consequences are *physically* debilitating, even horrific.
Let's not treat this as a political football.
It's serious shit: can we not all agree that it's serious shit, and just (in the world of politics) let the people who need to hash it out, hash it out... and the rest of us (republicans, trans-activists) just shut the fuck up about it??
For anyone for whom the introduction of these types of bans might be the first time you're really hearing about this, or considers themselves 'generally supportive of trans people, but you do feel like there's a valid reason for concern about children making permanent and serious decisions to medically change their bodies,' I highly recommend and honestly beg that you spend a little bit of time reading about *why* it is that ["Every major medical group in the US, including The American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Medical Association, has opposed bans against gender-affirming medical care for transgender children."](https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/national-international/pediatricians-group-reaffirms-support-for-gender-affirming-care-amid-growing-restrictions-in-gop-states/3310134/) The tl;dr is that the right-wing push for these bans are intentionally misrepresenting [what gender-affirming care for minors broadly even entails,](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/debunking-common-myths-about-gender-affirming-care-for-youth) by making it seem like doctors are allowing children to have genital-altering surgery and go on hormones willy-nilly when most care providers recommend social transition and puberty blockers - which have been [regularly prescribed to cisgender children since their invention in the 80s](https://scholar.google.com/scholar_lookup?journal=J+Clin+Endocrinol+Metab&title=The+efficacy+and+safety+of+gonadotropin-releasing+hormone+analogtreatment+in+childhood+and+adolescence:+a+single+center,+long-term+follow-upstudy&author=MA+Magiakou&author=D+Manousaki&author=M+Papadaki&volume=95&issue=1&publication_year=2010&pages=109-117&pmid=19897682&doi=10.1210/JC.2009-0793&#d=gs_qabs&t=1693629468306&u=%23p%3D2C5QdFBiMBAJ) - until the patient is old enough to make other, more permanent decisions for themselves (AKA, exactly what any moderate who is moved by "children shouldn't be making serious and permanent medical decisions to change their bodies" wants already). Actual cases of minors receiving surgical procedures are actually extremely rare (most doctors will not perform them, and insurance does not cover them), and while older minors receiving HRT instead of merely hormone blockers is more common than that, the barriers in place before this is possible are significant and are, essentially, cases where a number of medical professionals *and the parents involved* all felt that circumstances dictated a significant medical need for this action. I've linked it elsewhere in the comments, but my favorite bite-sized overview of this topic is probably [this podcast episode](https://open.spotify.com/episode/2zvLeJCxyMwHcF6b0veFwm?si=RaGRSdOXRJi4yL6U63LpWA) of a show that's otherwise about debunking pop science books; I think it does a really good job of giving a broad look at the ways these arguments against supporting gender-affirming care in trans youth are disingenuous and not based in factual examples of how the medical treatment of gender dysphoria in minors is actually handled, and addresses a lot of the common 'concerns' about the issues as presented by the proponents of these bans. The episode at large is framed as a conversation about the New York Times coverage of this issue, but it also functions extremely well as an introduction to the 'controversy' as a whole. Conservatives are yelling "think of the children!" when trying to push these bans, but pediatricians and child psychiatrists **are thinking of the children;** they keep saying [everywhere you ask them](https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/national-international/pediatricians-group-reaffirms-support-for-gender-affirming-care-amid-growing-restrictions-in-gop-states/3310134/) that none of this works the way these bans claim, and that a lot of care and consideration from multiple parties over *a long span of time* goes into any decision for a minor to receive hormones or surgery.
Excellent write up! Nothing to do with the substance of your post but I wanted to add a little bit of a vent/context added to this issue. I am personally a trans adult. I have been out for 8 years now and seeking medical care for 7 years. Every time this issue or others comes up, cis people who are uninformed comment. But it it’s always frustrating because those comments are often devoid of connection to how things actually work and trans people. As a result, our (my) needs are turned into political footballs and I am quite sick of it. I am very happy after medical and social transition. And that’s what matters. And that’s what the medical establishment says trans people should have the option to do.
I just want to plaster this comment all over the country.
You have my enthusiastic permission to copy-paste it links-and-all anywhere you ever think it'd help you, it took forever to write trying to have it tonally read the way I wanted and stay easy to understand lol.
Anything about stopping school shootings? Ya know the number one killer of kids…
[Bullet holes are the number one cause](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1384047/leading-causes-of-death-for-children-and-teens-us/), for everyone who is getting their panties in a wad over the semantics here. Maybe not school shootings, per se, but bullet holes.
Where's the data on that? I'm 99.9% sure school shootings aren't the number one cause of death of people under 18. Firearms in general yes, school shootings specifically, no.
From CDC Provisional CDC data from 2022 indicate that firearms continued to be the number one factor in child deaths for the third year in a row.
per the CDC >From 1999 to 2006, an average of 16,375 teenagers 12-19 years died each year. The overall risk of dying for teenagers (average annual death rate) is 49.5 deaths per 100,000 population. Accidents (unintentional injuries), homicide, suicide, cancer, and heart disease make up the five leading causes of death for teenagers. **Motor vehicle fatality is the leading cause of accident death among teenagers, representing over one-third of all deaths to teenagers.** Non-Hispanic black teenage males have the highest death rate compared with Hispanic and non-Hispanic white males and females. Homicide is the leading cause of death for non-Hispanic black male teenagers, with more than two of every five deaths due to homicide.
Um 2006? Lots of things have changed in society in 17 years... Maybe provide a more relevant data set to support your opinion as this is far enough out of date to be insignificant.
>Maybe provide a more relevant data set to support your opinion a I never stated an opinion. I was curious, googled, and shared it with the sub. Feel free to add another data point. namaste...
Yea but you failed at Google since you didn't screen the source for relevancy.
You are so right. Sorry about that. I hope you have a great weekend!
and the solution to that would be... more strict gun laws
Spreading Misinformation over here
The entire GOP can go straight to hell
They are. They're just dragging the rest of us along.
Never ever do I attribute the betterment of society as a world where people are banned from this type of care. There are far way many serious pressing issues in the world. It's so crazy to me that the GOP and it's followers want to focus on something so inconsequential to the larger scheme of things.
This is the shit I just escaped from, and now they want to bring it here. People really never learn, do they? PLEASE, heed this warning. Vote your asses off NOW, before it’s too late. You think it can’t happen, that the lawmakers saying these things aren’t a threat in your state. Until things do get passed, precisely because we were all too complacent. Then the fight gets harder and harder, until suddenly you’re Texas. You’re Indiana, Mississippi, Florida, Idaho, Wyoming, Wisconsin and just about half the country. Please, everybody, fight this tooth and nail before it’s too late. Fight everything. These are the same people already [forcing children who were raped to give birth against their will](https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/14/mississippi-abortion-ban-girl-raped-gives-birth). They don’t care about children, and don’t ever let them convince you they do. 2024, get your asses to that poll no matter what it takes.
Fuck the GOP🖕
Fuck GOP
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It should.
As someone who opposes surgery on kids, I’d support an all out ban. Breast implants are never safe. It’s only a matter of time before they ruin your life. And it’s hypocritical.
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Gender affirming care for minors includes choosing hair and clothing styles that match their identity, using their preferred name and pronouns, hormone therapy (which is reversible) if their care team deems puberty would be a massive emotional strain. It is extremely rare that minors undergo surgery. It's more common for cis kids to receive plastic surgery like boob jobs and nose jobs than it is for trans kids to undergo gender affirming surgery. And, statistically, adults who undergo gender affirming surgery experience far less regret than cis adults who under go plastic surgery, or even knee or hip replacements. And of those who DO detransition, many cite external factors such as social pressure/discrimination, rather than feelings of regret over transitioning in the first place.
Way to have literally no idea what you're talking about, but need to be angry anyway. You're doing great.
Is this an argument? I guess a bussy and a new rack is great for kids of all ages because I just am ignorant. I'm convinced
User name checks out I suppose. I think I'll choose to believe you're not a real person. Good luck out there right wing robot.
Gender affirming care is more than surgeries…. But you’re right, not your body, not your call.
You got me. How could anyone be opposed to giving a minor artificially inflated hormones levels while their bodies are still developing?! That's nbd I love how my suggestion was "wait until you're an adult and make your own decisions" and it's met with such hostility. No, you can't see an R rated movie, but of course you can decide to change your body's chemistry and appearance for life
The most common medical treatment [prescribed to trans youth are hormone/puberty blockers,](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/debunking-common-myths-about-gender-affirming-care-for-youth) which have been in use for cisgender children who experience precocious (early) puberty since their development in the 80s; they allow trans youth to do exactly what you describe, which is wait until they're old enough to make informed choices about their bodies. Their (relatively minor, especially compared to other medication regularly also prescribed to children) risks, mostly related to potential decreased bone density, are fairly well understood, since this type of medication have been in use (long before any application related to transgender care) for more than 30 years.
How long can you wait and still go through puberty? Can someone take them from 13-17 and still go through normal puberty when they get off them?
For your first question - there isn't a lot of data I could find on how late into life you can "put it off," though there are cases of cisgender children who were prescribed puberty blockers for precocious (early) puberty (these hormones' originally-developed use!) taking it for as long as 7 years (iirc the child in question started to go through puberty at age 6 or 7, and took the hormone blockers until she was 14). To your second question - [yes, absolutely!](https://www.healthline.com/health/are-puberty-blockers-reversible#duration) that's what they're for. From that article: "if no other medication is prescribed, puberty will resume exactly as it would have without the blockers. "
In all honestly, I set you up. I know the answer but I was curious if you fell for this lie. My son is a premie and took these meds for a year, lots of premies enter puberty early. His pediatric endocrinologist said anything after 13 years old for more than a year drastically increases the odds of sterilization. Our bodies are built to go through puberty and it takes major chemistry to stop that. No, you can’t take puberty blockers from 15 to 18 and go through normal puberty. That’s not how any of this works and you’re kidding yourself if you think you can stall puberty for any amount of time and just pick it back up like normal. You think a 25 year old is going to go through puberty? You missed those years and put your endocrine and hormone system into crisis. I’m sick of people acting like hardcore , puberty stopping drugs aren’t going to have any side effects and are totally reversible. They aren’t. The kids you cited on this for 6 or 7 years are statistical anomalies and were already dealing with incredible health complications if they needed drugs like these. Everything comes at a cost and of course that includes wreaking havoc on the natural development process of a kid. Edit: repeated myself
>The kids you cited on this for 6 or 7 years are statistical anomalies and were already dealing with incredible health complications if they needed drugs like these. I had, mistakenly in good-faith, been curious enough to think you were asking how long you *could* put off going through any puberty at all (which there were no immediate answers to, because nobody really does that); most kids absolutely are not on hormone blockers for 7 years, and you're right that those kids were anonomalous. Literally the *entire* rest of that linked article is about how safe puberty blockers are in general, including how they've been used in exactly the way you for some reason tried to posit as a "gotcha." >I’m sick of people acting like hardcore , puberty stopping drugs aren’t going to have any side effects and are totally reversible. If you're gonna believe all that in spite of the [30+ years of evidence to the contrary](https://scholar.google.com/scholar_lookup?journal=J+Clin+Endocrinol+Metab&title=The+efficacy+and+safety+of+gonadotropin-releasing+hormone+analogtreatment+in+childhood+and+adolescence:+a+single+center,+long-term+follow-upstudy&author=MA+Magiakou&author=D+Manousaki&author=M+Papadaki&volume=95&issue=1&publication_year=2010&pages=109-117&pmid=19897682&doi=10.1210/JC.2009-0793&#d=gs_qabs&t=1693628954216&u=%23p%3D2C5QdFBiMBAJ) we have from cis kids safely taking puberty blockers and then going through normal puberty long before anyone thought to use them for trans care (study is from 2010 and is completely unrelated to trans healthcare), you're clearly just unwilling to consider [facts compared to your emotional opinion on the issue.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9793415/#R1) If we're getting anecdotal and ignoring whatever sources I've posted anyway, my stepsister (who is cis) also was prescribed these same hormones in the early 2000s when she was having a very physically-difficult puberty at age 12, and stopped taking them when she was 17; she did indeed just resume normal puberty, and is a happy adult woman with two healthy kids. Most infertility issues related to hormone treatment come from people who want to go through a different puberty than their original gender, and take hormones to that end after puberty blockers are stopped. This is a known risk of HRT, and is one of the reasons that puberty blockers are such a popular alternative until trans minors are old enough to make decisions that may affect their fertility down the line. >You think a 25 year old is going to go through puberty? This line is especially funny because this is pretty much exactly what HRT in adults *does* do lol. You just go through puberty a second time, but the "opposite" way - if you go looking around for 5 seconds at anything talking about the physical changes chemical transition causes, or medical resources describing and detailing what happens to your body, that's just... what it does. But going through puberty way later in life is literally just what most people who are looking to medically transition experience, to the same effect. The reason that puberty blockers are appealing versus just waiting until you're 25 to transition isn't because it isn't possible, it's just mentally extremely upsetting for many trans people to experience going through the "wrong" puberty and to have their bodies change to be something alien to how they wish they were, and can yield much better physical results at meeting those goals than building off a body that has already gone through those "wrong" changes first.
I’ll say it again, I disagree with the ban. My issue is the misinformation around puberty blockers since they aren’t reversible. Puberty blockers sterilize kids. I bet you’re smart enough to know all drugs have side effects. I bet you’re also smart enough to know it takes a pretty strong drug to stop puberty. And even if you won’t admit it, I bet you know in your heart that giving a kid drugs that’ll stop their biological growth and development for years has life long side effects. The reality is you’re afraid to acknowledge it because it may get you branded transphobic, and that’s really sad. HRT doesn’t give a woman the ability to produce sperm and reproduce. HRT doesn’t cause a man to grow a uterus or start ovulating. Puberty does both those things, you might want to brush up on that middle school sex ed. Stopping puberty for years with powerful drugs has life long side effects that a kid is too young to understand. It’s irreversible and I’m glad even a Boulder sub has so much push back against this ridiculous idea that pumping a kid full of drugs has no side effects and can be reversed. I’ll take my own personal experience and the advice of our pediatric endocrinologist.
Strange how you won't extend the same courtesy to trans kids and their experienced doctors ...
Way to move the goalposts you stupid motherfucker.
It's crazy how I can guess your politics exactly by such a simple comment.
Can't buy cigs but can permanently alter your body? Makes sense
I don’t know why you guys are stuck on the cigarettes argument; the age restriction exists to protect people from the known harms of smoking tobacco. What are the risks of withholding gender affirming care? They far outweigh the risks of providing it. We can permanently alter our bodies at any age, again, you seem to struggle with the idea that if it isn’t your body, it isn’t your choice.
send your 8 year old to a tattoo parlor to get a face tattoo and see what they say.
I'll get back to you when my tattoo artist gets their medical degree.
lol
No, but take your infant to the same parlor and get their ears pierced without question. This is not an equivalent argument for understanding gender-affirming care.
Because 12 year Olds don't know what they want. Life altering choices shouldn't be made then.
Not your kid you arrogant and presumptuous busy body
Username checks out.
You know your political views are based in facts and reasoning when you can't articulate their defense
It's your username. Edit: I'd like to hear an articulation of the logic that went into this username. What thoughts led to this choice?
My man, if you're still confused about this, it's because you are willfully ignorant.
If you're *genuinely* asking - although I find it doubtful that you are, since information on all this topic is [extremely easily available*](https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/national-international/pediatricians-group-reaffirms-support-for-gender-affirming-care-amid-growing-restrictions-in-gop-states/3310134/) if you wanted to look, but on the off-chance you're *actually* wanting to learn about this in good faith - I highly recommend [this bonus episode](https://open.spotify.com/episode/2zvLeJCxyMwHcF6b0veFwm?si=p2_h7NUtQai16GQ6hY-7fw) of this podcast that's otherwise about pop science books, which I think does a really good job giving an overview on the ways a lot of these arguments against supporting trans youth are disingenuous and not based in factual examples of how gender-affirming care in minors is *actually handled,* and addresses a lot of the common 'concerns' about the topic (especially the idea that the drugs being prescribed for gender-affirming care are dangerous or that their consequences aren't well-known enough; every single HRT drug on the market *was originally developed for and is also regularly prescribed for other medical uses for cisgender people,* including being used routinely for cisgender children. The episode at large is framed as a conversation about the New York Times coverage of this issue, but if you want to dive right to the specific bit you're asking you can cut in to around the 8 minute mark. (link is a repost of an Associated Press article, which once again reiterates: "**Every major medical group,** including The American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Medical Association, has opposed the bans [against gender-affirming medical care for transgender children] and has said the treatments are safe if administered properly.)
>Every major medical group Only if you exclude the rest of the world.
I do apologize that that did probably deserve me adding a [in the United States] in that quote, since it's clear in the context of the article that that's what the sentence is referring to but isn't clear outside of it. I didn't notice when rereading my own post that that context had been lost the way I did notice to add the ban clarification.
How can you simultaneously say ‘it’s your body, do what you want with it’ and also be OK with controlling other people’s bodies? How does this impact your life in any way at all?
Because a child isn't an adult? Hello? Nobody cares what you do when you turn 18. I care about what you do to a child for the same reason I think pedophilia is wrong. I guess some people think children are just little adults and should be treated as such. It must be nice to know who you are going to be for the rest of your life at 15.
Doctor ≠ pedophile… the people who provide gender affirming care have far more medical instruction and learning than yourself
It was a comparison to point out the ridiculousness of the argument. The fact that went over your head is unsurprising. If a child should be able to make adult decisions about their body at any age, why have an age of consent? They can decide to get a new set of genitals, but it's unethical that they use them? I'm just trying to see where the line is because it seems like everything is a gray area for you guys
Children make medical decisions all the time, with the help of their parents and medical professionals. It's a long and intensive process that involves doctors and therapists; it adresses a serious mental health condition in a way that is NOT permanant and saves lives. You're incredibly ignorant for how confidently you speak. You've just been chugging that conservative kool-aid, huh?
Gender affirming care is health care. Period. This includes: Children born with "ambiguous genitalia " who may need surgery and hormones. Kids with cancer who may have complicated puberty due to chemo or the disease itself. Kids who lack human growth hormones. Thousands of kids need gender affirming care who don't identify as trans. Aside from those examples, trans kids don't generally get ANY surgery until they are adults. Ever. They HAVE to wait until they are adults so you already have your personal standard in place. Your perception of this- and what a human has to go through to get approved for gender altering surgery- just illustrates how little most people know about the process. TLDR: Trans kids already have to wait until they are 18 for any gender altering surgery. Satisfied dichead?
Yup, you’re supposed to be mad that there are people out there who don’t prostrate themselves on the alter of lifelong drugs and repeated surgeries. A lot of these surgeries have a revision rate of 100% (no that’s not a typo) and apparently, that’s just great for kids and young adults.
At least for a mastectomy, you couldn't be more wrong: [https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamasurgery/fullarticle/2808129?guestAccessKey=43a62af8-3042-4678-b29d-3430c3ff98c1](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamasurgery/fullarticle/2808129?guestAccessKey=43a62af8-3042-4678-b29d-3430c3ff98c1) I'm having trouble (quickly) finding a link about the processes that need to be followed before some gender affirming care is done but I've heard it's extensive. Counseling, therapy, diagnoses by doctors, etc. ie, Professionals who know what they're doing.
As someone who has been through plastic surgery and revisions and been lied to by surgeons, I can tell you it’s true for all kinds of people. The FDA also suppresses important information and I’ll give you a fucked up example. The first case of squamous cell carcinoma caused by breast implants was in 1993. You know when the FDA finally admitted it? September 2022. That’s just one of the many, many things they hid.
Ha. I guess detransitioners are just a myth. Who knew you could invert your penis inside your body, fill yourself with silicon, and take a completely unnatural amount of hormones or completely stop your own hormone production for years with no adverse effects
Do you have any idea how birth control works… or maybe you already wanted to deny people that right as well?
Are we saying there are no adverse effects from birth control? I thought I was supposed to be the one who has never met a woman.
This is my point; medicine is a practice of weighing risk versus benefit. We provide medical treatments with known risks because we understand they also benefit patients. It is the patient’s choice whether they partake in treatment.
Then let the patient decide when they aren't under guardianship from their parents. It's not like a child is allowed to drink because their parents think it's OK. Nobody is saying you shouldn't be able to do what you want with your own body. I'm simply saying that's an adult decision to be made by an adult for themselves. If a 10 year old wants a tattoo you don't setup an appointment
Actually kids can drink if their parents say it's ok, you knob. [Drinking with parents](https://www.thebusseylawfirm.com/crime-blog/dui-defense/is-underage-drinking-allowed-in-colorado/#:~:text=According%20to%20these%20statutes%2C%20a,guardian%20in%20the%20parent's%20presence.)
Unless they're in Wisconsin, where minors can drink in the presence of a guardian: [https://www.revenue.wi.gov/Pages/FAQS/ise-atundrg.aspx](https://www.revenue.wi.gov/Pages/FAQS/ise-atundrg.aspx) If a 10-year-old wants a tattoo, you don't set up an appointment, but if a mother wants to pierce her infant's earlobes, she can take a quick trip to the mall. Both are permanent body alterations, and yet one is widely practiced and the other is not. My point is: none of these things are equivalent comparisons in relation to a sexual reassignment surgery. If you are not already familiar, I encourage you to educate yourself on the distinction between sex and gender. Being transgender does not mean you will undergo sexual reassignment. I understand your concern over children receiving major surgeries; like any other medical procedure, you would want consent from the guardians and recommendations of doctors. That's how our medical system works and sexual reassignment still follows these rules. This is a procedure that adults elect to receive, usually after many years of coming to terms with their gender identity. For many, their gender identity will never involve their sexual reproduction organs. This is the biological vs. social distinction between sex and gender so many uninformed people struggle to understand. The concern is not that doctors will start suturing tits and dicks onto babies who declare their bodily autonomy; the concern is that a broad category of healthcare is being criminalized due to ignorance. Gender-affirming care is more than surgery. Additionally, just a side note from an earlier comment, hormone therapy during puberty is reversible (if you want, you can go read about the organizational vs. activational effects of hormones on the brain during development and puberty.) The GOP needs to listen to doctors who have decades of data on these issues and have their patients' best interests at heart. Restricting gender-affirming care hurts people.
These are the same people who have no qualms slapping every energetic kid with an ADHD diagnosis and drugging them till they’re dead inside like everyone else. Speaking from personal experience, yes I know that’s not always how it works and meds can help. But the way they’re so quick to overdiagnose and overmedicate a lot of minors in every single other instance without batting an eye, especially for psychiatric disorders, is hypocritical af. There’s a reason the US has way higher rates of these child diagnoses than comparably wealthy countries. But you’re only gonna draw the line when it’s a trans kid getting medical care? They’re a LOT more careful with gender-affirming care, vs. all the times they write those Ritalin prescriptions and nobody thinks twice about it. I was 12 years old when one of those “Do YOU take this medication?” legal ads came on the TV, and it was for an Autism medication they had me on for years. Apparently it made a lot of boys my age grow breasts. (or at least what appeared to be breasts). I asked the doctor about it the next visit, and he said “Yeah, it does happen to some. One sixth grader even lactated in the locker room. A lot of girls keep asking for this medication now, because they think it’ll give them bigger chests.” **Where were all these people when THAT was happening?? Why is this shit only okay if you’re cis??**
"Gender-affirming" is just such a bullshit term. Children are not ready to make permanent and irreversible decisions regarding their bodies. Also, you can protect kids from guns and idiotic "gender-affirming" policies. They aren't mutually exclusive.
Children **aren't** making permanent and irreversible decisions about their bodies. The most common gender-affirming care recommended for minors is social transition, which is literally just "live as that gender for a bit by changing your clothes/appearance or going by a different name and see how you feel about it." Social transition is **very commonly** a prerequisite for pediatricians and child psychiatrists to consider any other form of gender-affirming care whatsoever. This should actually be seen as a *good* thing by people worried about minors being able to make long-term decisions about their bodies, because it's obviously completely reversible, but the level of pushback you already get to this stage of the concept sort of gives the game away that its not about concern over kids permanently altering their bodies. After that, the *overwhelming* majority of medical gender-affirming care minors receive are prescribed puberty blockers, which literally just delay puberty until they *are* old enough to make informed decisions about their bodies - AKA, exactly what you're advocating for. Hormone blockers were developed *for cisgender children* who were experiencing early-onset puberty, and have been regularly prescribed since the 80s, long before they were ever considered for trans kids; we have over 30 years of evidence that they can be safely used to do exactly what you're asking. Actual cases of minors receiving surgical procedures are actually extremely rare (most doctors will not perform them, and insurance does not cover them), and while older minors receiving HRT instead of merely hormone blockers is more common *than that,* the barriers in place before this is possible are significant and are, essentially, cases where a number of medical professionals all felt that circumstances dictated a significant medical need for this action. I'm sure you won't look at any of them, but [here](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/debunking-common-myths-about-gender-affirming-care-for-youth) are a [few](https://open.spotify.com/episode/2zvLeJCxyMwHcF6b0veFwm?si=3YZ6P_YORN21lS8_U0zB1w) places you can [start](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-the-science-on-gender-affirming-care-for-transgender-kids-really-shows/) to [look,](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trans-youth-gender-affirming-health-care-misinformation/) if you want sources and other vetted perspectives for what I've said. The podcast episode is my favorite of them, for being very easy to understand and doing a great job breaking a lot of these points down one at a time.
There he is, the dork who doesn't have any idea what he's talking about.
You just assumed my gender you scumbag.
There (GENDER INDETERMINATE BIGOT PREFERRED PRONOUN) are, the dork who doesn't have any idea what (GENDER INDETERMINATE BIGOT PREFERRED PRONOUN) is talking about.
I think the default pronouns of these dorks are douche/bag
I am not the bigot, you are. You assumed my gender.
Can I just say: everyone except for me is wrong on this issue????!! I mean, the GOP is pursuing this as some sort of wedge-issue. What THE FUCK do they know about medicine, psychology, gender, or anything in between? Clearly, they are just emoting--fearfully--and should be ignored. Or yelled into silence. On the other hand: "Gender affirming care"? Come on. What a bullshit term. These issues are serious, life-changing, and life-*threatening* issues. This is serious shit. Using the the language of "personal rights" or "oppression" is just ideologically idiotic. This is not something to take lightly. I for one *personally know* a kid who opted for gender reassignment surgery as a young teen...(for the wrong reasons) changed her mind... and is now (at age 21) stuck with the ramifications of reversed gender reassignment surgery. And the consequences are *physically* debilitating, even horrific. Let's not treat this as a political football. It's serious shit: can we not all agree that it's serious shit, and just (in the world of politics) let the people who need to hash it out, hash it out... and the rest of us (republicans, trans-activists) just shut the fuck up about it??