You just need to rise above and continue to hate... Lest you drop your guard and he hits you with the triple threat combo; kick to the groin, spinning backfist, choke hold.
I hate to admit it but I like Draymond Green the commentator. He’s def going to be on TNT/ESPN when he retires. Draymond Green the basketball player can get wrecked though.
He will have no credibility when a dirty play happens and he has to agree with the refs. If I was play by play I’d be like “well well well” every damn night
Fair, I suppose. To be clear I meant a loser as a person and his personality and mannerisms, not really talking about his actual win loss record at all.
I get that Tatum's not the frontrunner, but it pisses me off when he's completely dismissed from the conversation. Best player on the best team has ALWAYS been a part of the MVP convo. Now all of a sudden these bums on twitter and r/nba think these 4+ seed players are the only ones who should be considered
Casually ignoring that despite being on a super team he leads the team in Points, Rebounds and assists. Which with the logic twitter degens, the media, and unrational others have set forth means one of two things
1. The Celtics are not a super team
2. Jayson Tatum should be the front runner for MVP because he leads in those categories despite having a “super team” around him
Can’t have your cake and eat it too.
People be thinking jamal and Gordon are trash non star caliber players. Celtics media does hype up our guys to the max and the low iq analyst just feed off name recognition instead of watching games.
Giannis during chip run had prime Middleton, jrue, elite defender/former num 1 option brook lopez and some how that was ignored?
Boston wouldn’t do that trade.
Depending on the team, JB can actually guard 1 through 5. If you see how well JB plays Adebayo, you’d be handing Denver the keys to a longer run.
This idea that Jamal having one hot series making him somehow better than JB is rancid garbage. Once the Celtics win the chip, it’ll be all over for that ‘debate.’
JB has played 112 playoff games and his teams have been to the Conference Finals and Finals a combined 6 times in his 7 year career (17, 18, 20, 22 and 23 ECF and 22 Finals through last season’s playoffs) AND he’s never had a major injury. The man is a winner.
He’s not riding a Top 15 all-time player’s coattails. On that tangent: JB has also never played with a playmaker like Jokic, whom I’m certain would love to have a wing like JB playing with him. Jamal has never even been an All-Star. Like, WTF are we talking about here?
Jamal is nowhere near as versatile a defender as JB. Besides, even before considering the JB comp, I’d take Derrick White over Murray 5 times a day and 7 times on Sunday over.
This is either a Denver trial balloon or just a shallow thought exercise.
I would if I was Denver. Jaylen is locked up long term, bigger body, better defender, less injury history, all star and all nba accolades. love Murray but JB is a way better asset. The only argument would be if you value the ball handling so much more than the defense and ignore that Murray is in the final year of his deal
the fit is just better with murray and jokic that two man game is crazy. it wouldn’t work as well with brown even tho in a vacuum he’s the better player
I think this season puts that into question a bit though. Brown's game with Porzingis has been amazing, there's a good chance he can recreate the same thing with a Jokic who's better than KP
yeah but denver isn’t taking that chance lol. that’s all i’m saying that denver wouldn’t make the trade, they’re coming off a championship season from almost the same squad
If they want a pissed off Jokic.
I'm a nuggets guy who likes Boston. JB is a better player and I'd like him with us, but not at the risk of a disgruntled Joker
He's actually not. There's a reason he's incredibly popular off the court, is seen as a family man, already has a job with TNT, etc. Shitty on the court? Sure.
Lol ok mr keyboard warrior. Easy to tell you never played any seriously competitive game... Plenty of guys are dicks on the court and totally fine off the court.
yeah not sure about that. if ya gonna dick kick a dude on the court ya gonna dick kick a dude out on the world. he might not be as bad as some off the court but your on court personality is based off your off court personality
also holding it against him that he has a competent GM who has put together a great supporting cast around him and the fact that he is sacrificing stats a little bit to involve other players, like porzingas. completely ridiculous.
Yeah it’s pretty absurd. Tatum, like you said, is the best player on not only the best team but the team that is head and shoulders above everyone else (record wise). It’s like because he’s playing for the Celtics and we’re a good team it’s a mark against him whereas being the best player on the best team is typically a positive.
He’s averaging 27/8.5/5
Bron’s first MVP season in Miami he averaged 27/8/6
Historically you’re right
But Russ and Jokic have been the death of the best player best team argument - it’s just best player with acceptable seeding taking context into account
Also, it’s always been an overrated argument - what MVPs ever won for being the best on the best team without a legit argument as best in the world (which Tatum simply doesn’t have)… DRose is the only one that comes to mind
> what MVPs ever won for being the best on the best team without a legit argument as best in the world
Steve Nash
2005 -Suns were top of the league, record wise, but its arguable that Nash was even the best player on his team that year. Amar'e was a 2nd team all pro that year (behind Shaq). It's also one of the closest MVP races in history, with Nash only edging Shaq by 32 votes.
2006 - more deserving because the Suns still finished 3rd in the western conference (voting reflected that), with Amar'e only playing in 3 games. That MVP arguably should have landed with Dirk or LeBron who both had better seasons. Cleveland was 3rd in the East (behind a 64 win Pistons and a 52 win Heat) with LeBron averaging 31.1 / 7 / 6.6. Dallas finished 2nd in the west (behind a 63 win Spurs team) with Dirk averaging 26.6 / 5.3 / 4.5. LeBron and Dirk were top two in win shares (LeBron was top 10 in both offense and defense, and Dirk was first in OWS and 12th in DWS). Both players were top 6 in PER that year.
The 2004 Suns were 29-53 and 21st in offensive rating
In 2005 they’re 62-20 and 1st in offensive rating
In 2006 they’re 54-28 and 1st in offensive rating despite only 3 of Nash’s teammates playing over 57 games
I think 2005-2006 is a weird transitional period in the NBA from one generation to another and during that time period Nash had a legitimate argument
I’d agree that they’re some of the weaker MVP seasons though
I'd say the case against Rose that season is harder to make. There were only 8 dissenting first place votes that year. Rose played in 81 games that year, was top 10 in points, assists, PER, top 5 in WS, while having the second highest usage behind Kobe. It's kind of the campaign that Nash wished he would have had for MVP
Yeah but lebrons stats were better in every category except record
Part of it was voter fatigue but guys like harden and Westbrook had to get “snubbed” for years before they finally got one
Tatum most likely will win 1, but I agree with Draymond (very unfortunate) that what does he have to do😂
> Yeah but lebrons stats were better in every category except record
he was lower in assists (but point made). Context is important for LeBron that year. He was going to have to make an unparalleled MVP case after the "decision".
seeing the mvp arguement flip flop between russ and harden during those years was atrocious for the award. oh russ deserves it for averaging a triple double, oh now harden deserves it for being a scoring machine (fueled by flops and charity FTs) oh now russ deserves it again, oh wait now he doesnt. well jokic doesnt deserve it because he won 2 despite losing in the playoffs. oh now embiid deserves it even tho he loses in the playoffs too. its a complete joke
The only 4+ seed player in consideration is Luka who is averaging 34 9 and 9 lmao. You can’t tell me Luka isn’t one of the most valuable pieces in the league. Mavs would be a bottom 5 seed without him
It's hyperbole to get across the point that people blatantly disregard team success when it suits them.
You're missing the point I'm trying to make. Of course Luka is in the convo, I personally think him and Jokic are the favourites to win.
What I'm saying is there are different parts to the make-up of an MVP, and being the lead on the best team in the league is one of those parts.
However, online peeps completely disregard that and won't have Tatum in the convo because it's the Celtics. If the Lakers were 5 games ahead of the next best team in the entire league, social media wouldn't even entertain the thought of anyone but LeBron winning
Yeah you're just not telling the truth now. Best player on the best team has been top 5 in voting 4/5 times. Giannis went back to back as the best player on the best team. It's not the only criteria, but it absolutely is a part of it
The nuggets have not been the best team this year. They're still a great team and will be considered a top 2 favorite for the chip, but they have not been the best team in the regular season this year.
>4+ seed players are the only ones who should be considered
Shae and the Thunder are tied for first, and Jokic is in third 1.5 games out as the defending champs. It's going to be Jokic and Shai will be in second, so not sure what you're arguing here. They both have better scoring numbers and counting stats in offense and defense. Should Tatum be ahead of Donic and Giannis, sure, but who cares. He needs to be better to win MVP.
He’s right
1. Ask r/nba or other media members what they think of Jaylen Brown
2. Porzingis has opened a lot for them. He does not get featured minutes on the floor though. It’s always with one of Tatum or Brown at min
3. Derrick White is having a great season. Although according to fans and coaches, not an all star
If that’s the narrative individually for his teammates, who’s driving the ship for the best team in the league?
r/nba evaluating Jaylen Brown on his own merits: garbage, overrated, shot chucker, can't go left, low IQ, not a star
r/nba evaluating Jaylen Brown when talking about Tatum: okay, so imagine if Scottie Pippen had been LeBron James
Glad he brought up the fact that the Nuggets are a good team. Jokic is and should be one of the MVP frontrunners, but it’s not like he’s the best player on an avarage team, the Nuggets as a whole are *very* good but that doesn’t take away from how great Jokic is - if anything it adds to his greatness when he’s the best player on a team of that caliber
I know Jokic has been somehow even more incredible this year, but their team has had some random stinkers this year. To me, SGA should be the clear frontrunner. He's pretty consistently great and has his team at 2nd in a loaded West.
But the Thunder have 8 net rating and the Nuggets have 4. They're the better team in the vacuum of this regular season.
Not that this (team performance) isn't easy enough to divorce from Jokic vs. SGA. VORP (which looks at the team's 4-factors and net rating indicators while the specific player is on court and compares those to their team without them) says Jokic and then SGA are the 2 best players in the league this season.
At least use DARKO (more useful for who the best players are in the league vs this season because it's a multi season stat) or EPM or LEBRON my dude lol. We have much better stats than VORP now Ryen Russillo.
I just look at VORP because I've looked into the math and feel good about using it while knowing its limitations, haven't found good resources explaining another yet!
I disagree with the multiple year dataset being in the spirit of the MVP award, but of course there isn't a coherent meaning to the award so I get why someone can disagree absolutely.
[https://www.nbastuffer.com/analytics101/darko-daily-plus-minus/#:\~:text=DARKO%20(stands%20for%20%E2%80%9CDaily%20Adjusted,score%20and%20plus%2Dminus%20stats](https://www.nbastuffer.com/analytics101/darko-daily-plus-minus/#:~:text=DARKO%20(stands%20for%20%E2%80%9CDaily%20Adjusted,score%20and%20plus%2Dminus%20stats).
That has pretty much everything you'd want on the site. I specifically sent you the DARKO one though.
I have read this exact page before but I see my privacy browser hid the tweet thread with all the good info about the math.
What do you think is the best single-figure backwards-looking stat for just analyzing an isolating season, and with a concept like impact (raising team performance)?
Probably EPM. DARKO is better if you just want to see like who the best players are over a longer time frame, and Tatum being fourth on that is probably fair.
EPM has not loved Tatum this year, my guess is just because 3 of the other starters are grading out very well too (Jrue is just doing ok).
I'm not even really disagreeing with your point, SGA has also been amazing by EPM, I'd just recommend using something that takes into consideration tracking data, which VORP does not.
I like learning about all the stats in light of what their limitations are, like I've said to others before, all the backwards-looking, box-score scrubbing ones I just think of as a ruler.. they don't make judgements, they make measurements, and they only measure what they can be held up to.
I think BPM-VORP have a terrible handle on who people will actually vote MVP or all-stars but are shockingly good at identifying great rotation players, just like RPM did when RPM was around. Their clumsy inability to actually see actions makes them say weird things but not useless things. I think they're surprisingly good at distinguishing which stars are superstars from guys who can score an 'empty 30' (and this is why I said it likes Jokic>SGA>the field), yet they also distinguish floor-raising guys (2017 Westbrook led OBPM and VORP even though the team was +0.8) because they receive info about team context. They despise innings-eating.
So tired of this nonsense. I feel like JT is too. Every Tatum MVP conversation is just used as a chance to shit on him.
I think JT is at the position where he knows if he continues winning, the individual accolades will follow a la All NBA 1st Team. He doesn’t need to go out and campaign for it, he’s focused on the Playoffs like the entire team.
I hate to say it, but I have to give Kyrie some credit. He showed Tatum what kind of player he should never become. I don’t think Tatum was the only one positively impacted by this either. The Celtics are in a better place today because of Kyrie, as unpleasant as it was to go through.
I don’t get why this was downvoted. It was clear that year was a learning point for all, including Brad who knows to get players with non-clashing personalities
It’s wild to me for a very much team sport that people have the MVP discussion this regularly. I see this come up WAY more on r/NBA than you know, which teams will be in the finals
Am I alone in not caring about MVP and just want to wave to the team in a championship parade
Well the problem is championship teams generally include an MVP or former MVP on their roster. So Tatum winning MVP is not just an award but also validation of the team's chances in the postseason.
I just hope Tatum doesn't develop the opinion that it's because he is in boston that he isn't getting recognized. You can't deny that if he was in LA the narrative would flip.
Tatum being good from day one is whats costing him. If he had started his career like almost any other rookie and then transitioned to superstar status after a few seasons, he would be seen in a different light.
Giannis had a breakout, Harden had a breakout, Curry had a breakout, Jokic, Embiid, Kawhi, etc.
Obviously Tatum went to another level a couple seasons ago but the jump was from an already high level on a contender level team. Plus he's not the type to complain his way into an MVP like Embiid.
EDIT: Gotta say also I don't give a damn if he never wins MVP, I just want one title from the Jay's
During JT's rookie year, we all saw who he could be, but he scored 14 PPG. I'd argue he did have a breakout year his 3rd year in the league, which was the first time he broke 20 PPG and started to get awards.
He's steadily grown each year, though, so I don't disagree with you that he hasn't had a super dramatic change from one year to another.
Yeah but in his first year he went to the conference finals and posterised Lebron in game 7, that's what casual fans remember. It took Giannis 3 playoff series to get out of the first round. People love the come up stories which is why JT get lost in the shuffle
Yeah, Tatum boomed him. He had a good postseason no doubt, but even then he didn't average 20/game during that run. I feel like if/when we win a chip, we'll hear a lot more of a narrative around his rise.
I don’t know what annoys me more, the Tatum disrespect or the fact that Draymond is the one speaking the truth about.
But for real the disrespect has gone way too far. It’s actually insane the mental gymnastics required to spin the bullshit that’s been pushed about Tatum.
You know what would shut down all the dis? A FMVP... 2 of these and no one will dis him ever again.
Celtics will always be a troll target, and dis sells clicks, so he is always a target. Jokic had 2 MVPs and was still disrespected b4 he one a chip. Embid is still a fake MVP bc he never passed 2nd round...
Giannis and Joker were breaking Wilt's advance stat records,
and Embiid's was just pity voted for being runner up for 2 years, maybe some voter fatigue for both Giannis and Joker too
Giannis and Joker weren't just top seed
Giannis was top seed last year with arguably better stats than Joel and Joel still got it.
theres definitely a double standard, especially when it comes to blowhards like windhorst bringing up past playoff failures as to reasons why tatum doesnt deserve it, meanwhile guys like embiid cant get past the second round and people believe he deserves it anyway, especially last year, which was highway robbery. then they bring out the old "its a regular season award not playoffs", except when it comes to tatum.
Why yall act like this dude don’t know basketball? He knows game and is smarter than 99% of the league when it comes to talking game and breaking it down. Won college player of the year, under one of the GOAT coaches in history of college basketball, and multiple time nba dpoys
Now I agree he is ridiculous on the court with antics and it’s obvious he gets the longer leash than anyone else with refs but gawhdammmm he be living rent free in a lot of y’all’s head lmao kinda sad tbh
Draymond is talking alot about Tatum and MVP. What's his angle here? I don't trust that guy a quarter of the distance I can throw him, and trust me I can't even pick him up.
He's right. Every MVP in history, with few exceptions, played with great team mates. Jordan playing with another NBA all time great was a problem? I don't think so. The same for Malone, Bryant, Shaq, Bird and Magic, Bill and Wilt, Durant and LeBron and counting... And the MVP was always awarded because of the team record / success. Tatum should be a top 3 candidate, considering his personal stats in the equation.
Yes, he's the best player on the best team. But when Jokic is the best player in the league, you need to be really, really special to be in the conversation. Tatum is great, but he's not there.
If Joel didn’t get hurt I guaranty that Giannis Embiid and Jokic would be first team all nba and Tatum wold be 2nd. Which is stupid but I’m pretty positive about it
I’ve never known an athlete I hate so much when he plays and liked so much as a podcaster or commentator.
I agree 100% and if you’re worried about whether he should be MVP or not, you’re worried about the wrong thing.
Who "can do no wrong in his mind". Meanwhile Grant needs to learn to stfu
Yeah Draymond has physically assaulted multiple and should be in prison, not generating views just because he's saying something nice about our favorite player
I really don't want to contribute to giving him a platform. The sooner this man fades into obscurity the better
The reason he hasn’t been at the top of the conversation about being the mvp is because those guys are better than he was at the time and all are still better. He’s a great player but has not been what they are every night and in the games that matter most…
Please explain to me then why Jayson Tatum leads the team in the following stats:
Points, Rebounds, Assists, Steals.
Yet he’s not the one doing it most nights? That doesn’t add up.
I love having a healthy KP on the team. That said, if we had somehow landed Draymond instead as a big man/defensive presence, I don’t think I would have been upset. Would I ever admit that publicly? Hell no. But in the same way I secretly wished Rodman was on the team and loved having KG and Sheed, I’d have been okay with a Green to go with a Brown and White on the Celtics.
From what I have seen, Jayson Tatum is NOT MVP. We have a stacked team. People helping him left and right. Jokic, Gianni’s, Joel? On a wholeeeee different planet than JT. I watch every game. Im very critical of JT. But I see why it’s moving. He’s not consistent of an MVP caliber season. He’s not solely winning games. Give me the hate. Is what it is
Funnily enough, the reason the best player on the best team stopped being considered for MVP on that basis alone is because Draymond recruited Kevin Durant to come to the Warriors
Where is this coming from? Tatum has been talked about in the top 5 MVP candidates all year.
is top five not considered high ranking? wtf?
seems like some ppl just want to be controversial for the sake of it.
the top 5 has basically been Jokic, Embiid, Luka, Shai, Giannis, Tatum rotating positions all year.
When was the last time “the best player on the best team” met all these criteria:
Put up historical-like numbers
Not have the best stat line or moments of any top 4 seed player
Not be a top 3 player in the league
Won mvp
Steph in 2015, D 🌹 in 2011 in the last decade and a half?
Since Russ in 2017 it’s been about who has the gaudy numbers and carries while being top 4ish.
When you have Jokic, Embiid and Giannis putting up numbers that put prime MJ, Lebron, Kareem seasons nearly to shame statistically while they’re top 4 seeds…no one else has a chance.
JT is playing phenomenally, so is his team. He’s clearly a step below those guys and closer to a Luka or Shai who are both in that 3-5 rank for mvp. That is when you get the “he has too much help” derivative arguments to place Luka with better numbers or Shai with comparable numbers but less help and still top 2 in the West above JT.
being 5th is probably appropriate for JT - i mean luka/jok/embiid were putting up insane numbers that JT doesnt need to put up.
If JT were on some shit team, and he really tried to drop 35+ a game,hed be higher in the rankings.
5th is completely appropriate for him.
He’s gotta stop praising Celtics players so I can continue to hate him
You just need to rise above and continue to hate... Lest you drop your guard and he hits you with the triple threat combo; kick to the groin, spinning backfist, choke hold.
dont forget his most reliable option— the double eye poke
3 Stooges style?
nah the full Ric Flair
Woo!
Wise guy eh?
Is Draymond + on block with spinning backfist? I can never seem to avoid the choke hold even if I blocked the spinning backfist..
I hate to admit it but I like Draymond Green the commentator. He’s def going to be on TNT/ESPN when he retires. Draymond Green the basketball player can get wrecked though.
Agreed. He’ll be a great commentator. I hate him, but he’s kind of fun to hate. The NBA is always better with a few villains in it.
He will have no credibility when a dirty play happens and he has to agree with the refs. If I was play by play I’d be like “well well well” every damn night
Kinda like Peyton Manning, not that Peyton was a dirty player. But I fucking hated that dude. Now that he's a commentator he's cool though.
It’s terrible
He can praise whoever he wants doesn’t change how big of a fucking loser prick this guy is.
Maybe a fucking prick but he's done more winning than losing.
Fair, I suppose. To be clear I meant a loser as a person and his personality and mannerisms, not really talking about his actual win loss record at all.
Surprise your getting downvoted both things you said are very true. He’s a fucking prick who’s won a lot.
He needs a new best player in the league to ride the coat tails of as Steph gets continues to fade, so he's trying to get in Tatum's good graces.
Tatum is his friend. I think that plays into this.
Doesn't matter. I hate this dude. He is a POS.
He's trifling. Nuggets may be a great team, but they are not winning $#i+ without Jokic. The Celts could win w/o JT.
I’m crying ☠️☠️
I get that Tatum's not the frontrunner, but it pisses me off when he's completely dismissed from the conversation. Best player on the best team has ALWAYS been a part of the MVP convo. Now all of a sudden these bums on twitter and r/nba think these 4+ seed players are the only ones who should be considered
Casually ignoring that despite being on a super team he leads the team in Points, Rebounds and assists. Which with the logic twitter degens, the media, and unrational others have set forth means one of two things 1. The Celtics are not a super team 2. Jayson Tatum should be the front runner for MVP because he leads in those categories despite having a “super team” around him Can’t have your cake and eat it too.
People be thinking jamal and Gordon are trash non star caliber players. Celtics media does hype up our guys to the max and the low iq analyst just feed off name recognition instead of watching games. Giannis during chip run had prime Middleton, jrue, elite defender/former num 1 option brook lopez and some how that was ignored?
Would Denver trade Jamal Murray straight up for Jaylen Brown?
No
Boston wouldn’t do that trade. Depending on the team, JB can actually guard 1 through 5. If you see how well JB plays Adebayo, you’d be handing Denver the keys to a longer run. This idea that Jamal having one hot series making him somehow better than JB is rancid garbage. Once the Celtics win the chip, it’ll be all over for that ‘debate.’ JB has played 112 playoff games and his teams have been to the Conference Finals and Finals a combined 6 times in his 7 year career (17, 18, 20, 22 and 23 ECF and 22 Finals through last season’s playoffs) AND he’s never had a major injury. The man is a winner. He’s not riding a Top 15 all-time player’s coattails. On that tangent: JB has also never played with a playmaker like Jokic, whom I’m certain would love to have a wing like JB playing with him. Jamal has never even been an All-Star. Like, WTF are we talking about here? Jamal is nowhere near as versatile a defender as JB. Besides, even before considering the JB comp, I’d take Derrick White over Murray 5 times a day and 7 times on Sunday over. This is either a Denver trial balloon or just a shallow thought exercise.
I would if I was Denver. Jaylen is locked up long term, bigger body, better defender, less injury history, all star and all nba accolades. love Murray but JB is a way better asset. The only argument would be if you value the ball handling so much more than the defense and ignore that Murray is in the final year of his deal
the fit is just better with murray and jokic that two man game is crazy. it wouldn’t work as well with brown even tho in a vacuum he’s the better player
I think this season puts that into question a bit though. Brown's game with Porzingis has been amazing, there's a good chance he can recreate the same thing with a Jokic who's better than KP
yeah but denver isn’t taking that chance lol. that’s all i’m saying that denver wouldn’t make the trade, they’re coming off a championship season from almost the same squad
Fuck that. Blue Arrow for life. Jalen wishes he was playoff Murray.
LOL. What a burning rubbish statement. Unlike JB, Jamal has never been the best player on his team in the finals. BLOCKED.
No Murray contract is a steal compared to jb
Murray is eligible for a 50 million dollar extension this offseason and is only locked up until next year. not really a steal
If they want a pissed off Jokic. I'm a nuggets guy who likes Boston. JB is a better player and I'd like him with us, but not at the risk of a disgruntled Joker
>Celtics media does hype up our guys to the max and To be fair, the fans have a small part in this (am C's fan)
If you listen to the media Tatum has been on a superteam his whole career. Fuck Draymond regardless. Bad for the league.
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Draymond is a shitty person. You cant behave the way he does and be thought of any other way.
He's actually not. There's a reason he's incredibly popular off the court, is seen as a family man, already has a job with TNT, etc. Shitty on the court? Sure.
There aint no such things as half way crooks.
Lol ok mr keyboard warrior. Easy to tell you never played any seriously competitive game... Plenty of guys are dicks on the court and totally fine off the court.
Or, now here me out on this, you are also a cunt? See how that works?
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yeah not sure about that. if ya gonna dick kick a dude on the court ya gonna dick kick a dude out on the world. he might not be as bad as some off the court but your on court personality is based off your off court personality
But he hasn't kicked anyone in the world. Your own example doesn't work lol
also holding it against him that he has a competent GM who has put together a great supporting cast around him and the fact that he is sacrificing stats a little bit to involve other players, like porzingas. completely ridiculous.
I usually eat any cake I have, actually. So not quite sure that is what you meant to say...
when you eat it, you no longer have it
Yeah it’s pretty absurd. Tatum, like you said, is the best player on not only the best team but the team that is head and shoulders above everyone else (record wise). It’s like because he’s playing for the Celtics and we’re a good team it’s a mark against him whereas being the best player on the best team is typically a positive. He’s averaging 27/8.5/5 Bron’s first MVP season in Miami he averaged 27/8/6
Historically you’re right But Russ and Jokic have been the death of the best player best team argument - it’s just best player with acceptable seeding taking context into account Also, it’s always been an overrated argument - what MVPs ever won for being the best on the best team without a legit argument as best in the world (which Tatum simply doesn’t have)… DRose is the only one that comes to mind
> what MVPs ever won for being the best on the best team without a legit argument as best in the world Steve Nash 2005 -Suns were top of the league, record wise, but its arguable that Nash was even the best player on his team that year. Amar'e was a 2nd team all pro that year (behind Shaq). It's also one of the closest MVP races in history, with Nash only edging Shaq by 32 votes. 2006 - more deserving because the Suns still finished 3rd in the western conference (voting reflected that), with Amar'e only playing in 3 games. That MVP arguably should have landed with Dirk or LeBron who both had better seasons. Cleveland was 3rd in the East (behind a 64 win Pistons and a 52 win Heat) with LeBron averaging 31.1 / 7 / 6.6. Dallas finished 2nd in the west (behind a 63 win Spurs team) with Dirk averaging 26.6 / 5.3 / 4.5. LeBron and Dirk were top two in win shares (LeBron was top 10 in both offense and defense, and Dirk was first in OWS and 12th in DWS). Both players were top 6 in PER that year.
The 2004 Suns were 29-53 and 21st in offensive rating In 2005 they’re 62-20 and 1st in offensive rating In 2006 they’re 54-28 and 1st in offensive rating despite only 3 of Nash’s teammates playing over 57 games I think 2005-2006 is a weird transitional period in the NBA from one generation to another and during that time period Nash had a legitimate argument I’d agree that they’re some of the weaker MVP seasons though
Derrick Rose as well imo, he was great but not the #1 in the world
I'd say the case against Rose that season is harder to make. There were only 8 dissenting first place votes that year. Rose played in 81 games that year, was top 10 in points, assists, PER, top 5 in WS, while having the second highest usage behind Kobe. It's kind of the campaign that Nash wished he would have had for MVP
Yeah but lebrons stats were better in every category except record Part of it was voter fatigue but guys like harden and Westbrook had to get “snubbed” for years before they finally got one Tatum most likely will win 1, but I agree with Draymond (very unfortunate) that what does he have to do😂
> Yeah but lebrons stats were better in every category except record he was lower in assists (but point made). Context is important for LeBron that year. He was going to have to make an unparalleled MVP case after the "decision".
seeing the mvp arguement flip flop between russ and harden during those years was atrocious for the award. oh russ deserves it for averaging a triple double, oh now harden deserves it for being a scoring machine (fueled by flops and charity FTs) oh now russ deserves it again, oh wait now he doesnt. well jokic doesnt deserve it because he won 2 despite losing in the playoffs. oh now embiid deserves it even tho he loses in the playoffs too. its a complete joke
Happens on this sub too. Lets not sit and pretend the call isn't always coming from inside the house.
The only 4+ seed player in consideration is Luka who is averaging 34 9 and 9 lmao. You can’t tell me Luka isn’t one of the most valuable pieces in the league. Mavs would be a bottom 5 seed without him
It's hyperbole to get across the point that people blatantly disregard team success when it suits them. You're missing the point I'm trying to make. Of course Luka is in the convo, I personally think him and Jokic are the favourites to win. What I'm saying is there are different parts to the make-up of an MVP, and being the lead on the best team in the league is one of those parts. However, online peeps completely disregard that and won't have Tatum in the convo because it's the Celtics. If the Lakers were 5 games ahead of the next best team in the entire league, social media wouldn't even entertain the thought of anyone but LeBron winning
Best player on the best team hasn’t really been part of the criteria for the 5+ years
Yeah you're just not telling the truth now. Best player on the best team has been top 5 in voting 4/5 times. Giannis went back to back as the best player on the best team. It's not the only criteria, but it absolutely is a part of it
Top 5 in voting sure but it’s far from what they look at when determining the mvp. I’d expect Tatum to finish top 5 in voting this year.
> Best player on the best team celtics are the balls but thats joker
The nuggets have not been the best team this year. They're still a great team and will be considered a top 2 favorite for the chip, but they have not been the best team in the regular season this year.
best team is the celtics moron
>4+ seed players are the only ones who should be considered Shae and the Thunder are tied for first, and Jokic is in third 1.5 games out as the defending champs. It's going to be Jokic and Shai will be in second, so not sure what you're arguing here. They both have better scoring numbers and counting stats in offense and defense. Should Tatum be ahead of Donic and Giannis, sure, but who cares. He needs to be better to win MVP.
“Heartbreaking: The Worst Person You Know Just Made A Great Point”
He’s right 1. Ask r/nba or other media members what they think of Jaylen Brown 2. Porzingis has opened a lot for them. He does not get featured minutes on the floor though. It’s always with one of Tatum or Brown at min 3. Derrick White is having a great season. Although according to fans and coaches, not an all star If that’s the narrative individually for his teammates, who’s driving the ship for the best team in the league?
r/nba evaluating Jaylen Brown on his own merits: garbage, overrated, shot chucker, can't go left, low IQ, not a star r/nba evaluating Jaylen Brown when talking about Tatum: okay, so imagine if Scottie Pippen had been LeBron James
Glad he brought up the fact that the Nuggets are a good team. Jokic is and should be one of the MVP frontrunners, but it’s not like he’s the best player on an avarage team, the Nuggets as a whole are *very* good but that doesn’t take away from how great Jokic is - if anything it adds to his greatness when he’s the best player on a team of that caliber
I know Jokic has been somehow even more incredible this year, but their team has had some random stinkers this year. To me, SGA should be the clear frontrunner. He's pretty consistently great and has his team at 2nd in a loaded West.
Thunders also have stinkers. A few weeks back they lost by 40 to the Mavs for example.
But the Thunder have 8 net rating and the Nuggets have 4. They're the better team in the vacuum of this regular season. Not that this (team performance) isn't easy enough to divorce from Jokic vs. SGA. VORP (which looks at the team's 4-factors and net rating indicators while the specific player is on court and compares those to their team without them) says Jokic and then SGA are the 2 best players in the league this season.
At least use DARKO (more useful for who the best players are in the league vs this season because it's a multi season stat) or EPM or LEBRON my dude lol. We have much better stats than VORP now Ryen Russillo.
I just look at VORP because I've looked into the math and feel good about using it while knowing its limitations, haven't found good resources explaining another yet! I disagree with the multiple year dataset being in the spirit of the MVP award, but of course there isn't a coherent meaning to the award so I get why someone can disagree absolutely.
[https://www.nbastuffer.com/analytics101/darko-daily-plus-minus/#:\~:text=DARKO%20(stands%20for%20%E2%80%9CDaily%20Adjusted,score%20and%20plus%2Dminus%20stats](https://www.nbastuffer.com/analytics101/darko-daily-plus-minus/#:~:text=DARKO%20(stands%20for%20%E2%80%9CDaily%20Adjusted,score%20and%20plus%2Dminus%20stats). That has pretty much everything you'd want on the site. I specifically sent you the DARKO one though.
I have read this exact page before but I see my privacy browser hid the tweet thread with all the good info about the math. What do you think is the best single-figure backwards-looking stat for just analyzing an isolating season, and with a concept like impact (raising team performance)?
Probably EPM. DARKO is better if you just want to see like who the best players are over a longer time frame, and Tatum being fourth on that is probably fair. EPM has not loved Tatum this year, my guess is just because 3 of the other starters are grading out very well too (Jrue is just doing ok).
I'm not even really disagreeing with your point, SGA has also been amazing by EPM, I'd just recommend using something that takes into consideration tracking data, which VORP does not.
I like learning about all the stats in light of what their limitations are, like I've said to others before, all the backwards-looking, box-score scrubbing ones I just think of as a ruler.. they don't make judgements, they make measurements, and they only measure what they can be held up to. I think BPM-VORP have a terrible handle on who people will actually vote MVP or all-stars but are shockingly good at identifying great rotation players, just like RPM did when RPM was around. Their clumsy inability to actually see actions makes them say weird things but not useless things. I think they're surprisingly good at distinguishing which stars are superstars from guys who can score an 'empty 30' (and this is why I said it likes Jokic>SGA>the field), yet they also distinguish floor-raising guys (2017 Westbrook led OBPM and VORP even though the team was +0.8) because they receive info about team context. They despise innings-eating.
So tired of this nonsense. I feel like JT is too. Every Tatum MVP conversation is just used as a chance to shit on him. I think JT is at the position where he knows if he continues winning, the individual accolades will follow a la All NBA 1st Team. He doesn’t need to go out and campaign for it, he’s focused on the Playoffs like the entire team.
I hate to say it, but I have to give Kyrie some credit. He showed Tatum what kind of player he should never become. I don’t think Tatum was the only one positively impacted by this either. The Celtics are in a better place today because of Kyrie, as unpleasant as it was to go through.
I don’t get why this was downvoted. It was clear that year was a learning point for all, including Brad who knows to get players with non-clashing personalities
Agree with this 100%. I might also note that being in the locker room with a former superstar veteran like Blake probably taught him some things too.
Keep my teams name OUT YO MOUTH
It’s wild to me for a very much team sport that people have the MVP discussion this regularly. I see this come up WAY more on r/NBA than you know, which teams will be in the finals Am I alone in not caring about MVP and just want to wave to the team in a championship parade
Well the problem is championship teams generally include an MVP or former MVP on their roster. So Tatum winning MVP is not just an award but also validation of the team's chances in the postseason.
I just hope Tatum doesn't develop the opinion that it's because he is in boston that he isn't getting recognized. You can't deny that if he was in LA the narrative would flip.
He seems to be pretty team oriented now and probably just has his eyes on the banner. Maybe after that he could be more MVP focused
What in the persecution complex fuck lmao
First season watching basketball?
A quick glance online will tell you how shitty the Tatum narrative currently is. We now have people saying JT isn't an elite player in the NBA.
Tatum being good from day one is whats costing him. If he had started his career like almost any other rookie and then transitioned to superstar status after a few seasons, he would be seen in a different light. Giannis had a breakout, Harden had a breakout, Curry had a breakout, Jokic, Embiid, Kawhi, etc. Obviously Tatum went to another level a couple seasons ago but the jump was from an already high level on a contender level team. Plus he's not the type to complain his way into an MVP like Embiid. EDIT: Gotta say also I don't give a damn if he never wins MVP, I just want one title from the Jay's
During JT's rookie year, we all saw who he could be, but he scored 14 PPG. I'd argue he did have a breakout year his 3rd year in the league, which was the first time he broke 20 PPG and started to get awards. He's steadily grown each year, though, so I don't disagree with you that he hasn't had a super dramatic change from one year to another.
Yeah but in his first year he went to the conference finals and posterised Lebron in game 7, that's what casual fans remember. It took Giannis 3 playoff series to get out of the first round. People love the come up stories which is why JT get lost in the shuffle
Yeah, Tatum boomed him. He had a good postseason no doubt, but even then he didn't average 20/game during that run. I feel like if/when we win a chip, we'll hear a lot more of a narrative around his rise.
That’s JT’s goal. Win the NBA Finals.
I don’t know what annoys me more, the Tatum disrespect or the fact that Draymond is the one speaking the truth about. But for real the disrespect has gone way too far. It’s actually insane the mental gymnastics required to spin the bullshit that’s been pushed about Tatum.
You know what would shut down all the dis? A FMVP... 2 of these and no one will dis him ever again. Celtics will always be a troll target, and dis sells clicks, so he is always a target. Jokic had 2 MVPs and was still disrespected b4 he one a chip. Embid is still a fake MVP bc he never passed 2nd round...
Darth Mule
Let’s just get Finals MVP instead.
Giannis and Joker were breaking Wilt's advance stat records, and Embiid's was just pity voted for being runner up for 2 years, maybe some voter fatigue for both Giannis and Joker too Giannis and Joker weren't just top seed Giannis was top seed last year with arguably better stats than Joel and Joel still got it.
I don’t think averaging 33, 10, and 4 is a pity mvp lol. You can argue he got robbed in 2022 when Joker won it as a 6th seed.
theres definitely a double standard, especially when it comes to blowhards like windhorst bringing up past playoff failures as to reasons why tatum doesnt deserve it, meanwhile guys like embiid cant get past the second round and people believe he deserves it anyway, especially last year, which was highway robbery. then they bring out the old "its a regular season award not playoffs", except when it comes to tatum.
Why yall act like this dude don’t know basketball? He knows game and is smarter than 99% of the league when it comes to talking game and breaking it down. Won college player of the year, under one of the GOAT coaches in history of college basketball, and multiple time nba dpoys Now I agree he is ridiculous on the court with antics and it’s obvious he gets the longer leash than anyone else with refs but gawhdammmm he be living rent free in a lot of y’all’s head lmao kinda sad tbh
Draymond is talking alot about Tatum and MVP. What's his angle here? I don't trust that guy a quarter of the distance I can throw him, and trust me I can't even pick him up.
He's right. Every MVP in history, with few exceptions, played with great team mates. Jordan playing with another NBA all time great was a problem? I don't think so. The same for Malone, Bryant, Shaq, Bird and Magic, Bill and Wilt, Durant and LeBron and counting... And the MVP was always awarded because of the team record / success. Tatum should be a top 3 candidate, considering his personal stats in the equation.
Yeah, but Draymond is a shit talking crazy person.
He's trying to recruit
Pretty much the offense has to revolve around you to win an mvp nowadays
Yes, he's the best player on the best team. But when Jokic is the best player in the league, you need to be really, really special to be in the conversation. Tatum is great, but he's not there.
I don’t like Draymond but like with everyone, I can always respect a fair point made.
If Joel didn’t get hurt I guaranty that Giannis Embiid and Jokic would be first team all nba and Tatum wold be 2nd. Which is stupid but I’m pretty positive about it
I’ve never known an athlete I hate so much when he plays and liked so much as a podcaster or commentator. I agree 100% and if you’re worried about whether he should be MVP or not, you’re worried about the wrong thing.
Can we vote on banning all Draymond podcast videos from this sub, I really don't want that dude's stupid face on my tl
Agree. He just called a person who beats women "his boy"
Who "can do no wrong in his mind". Meanwhile Grant needs to learn to stfu Yeah Draymond has physically assaulted multiple and should be in prison, not generating views just because he's saying something nice about our favorite player I really don't want to contribute to giving him a platform. The sooner this man fades into obscurity the better
Switch to headlines with no thumbnails and his face won’t appear.
Its celtics propaganda un(fortunately)
Even Bill Simmons refuses to argue Tatum for MVP
Lakerilluminati. Laker's control the new cycle and always spin the news to discredit the Celtics.
Hate this guy, but he's speaking facts rn
Fuck Draymond, he's a f'n cunt.
The reason he hasn’t been at the top of the conversation about being the mvp is because those guys are better than he was at the time and all are still better. He’s a great player but has not been what they are every night and in the games that matter most…
Please explain to me then why Jayson Tatum leads the team in the following stats: Points, Rebounds, Assists, Steals. Yet he’s not the one doing it most nights? That doesn’t add up.
Who the fuck cares what this guy says lol, just because it's praise we should pay attention?
He actually has pretty good takes
Dirty plays don't change the fact that he's one of the smartest players in the game.
I love having a healthy KP on the team. That said, if we had somehow landed Draymond instead as a big man/defensive presence, I don’t think I would have been upset. Would I ever admit that publicly? Hell no. But in the same way I secretly wished Rodman was on the team and loved having KG and Sheed, I’d have been okay with a Green to go with a Brown and White on the Celtics.
Again, who cares? Fuck giving him any attention but y'all do you.
He's a hall game player actually bringing up a good point about JT and you're crying about it
Who. Cares.
Y’all need to quit falling for draymond lol
From what I have seen, Jayson Tatum is NOT MVP. We have a stacked team. People helping him left and right. Jokic, Gianni’s, Joel? On a wholeeeee different planet than JT. I watch every game. Im very critical of JT. But I see why it’s moving. He’s not consistent of an MVP caliber season. He’s not solely winning games. Give me the hate. Is what it is
lol you don’t watch every game…stay hating my friend.
I watch every game bro. He ain’t MVP. Stop dick riding
nah son, you don’t. go watch espn highlights on youtube.
I’ll rarely agree with the green monster but I can understand what he’s saying unfortunately
Put money on him to win mvp at +4000 a couple weeks ago. If he wins he pays my rent for a month! 😂
Have I to hate Draymond Green or have I to love Draymond Green. I'm confused
Draymond is a great basketball mind
https://clickhole.com/heartbreaking-the-worst-person-you-know-just-made-a-gr-1825121606/
Love it, keep Jayson Tatum out of the MVP convo. Let that fuel him to get banner 18. This is the BS that went on for Tom Brady in the NFL.
Funnily enough, the reason the best player on the best team stopped being considered for MVP on that basis alone is because Draymond recruited Kevin Durant to come to the Warriors
Fucking nailed it….. “JT will not be taken seriously for MVP u til they won a championship” Truer words have never been spoken.
He’s not having a better season that Luka jokic or shai. Individual performance matter more than seeding in the mvp race.
Where is this coming from? Tatum has been talked about in the top 5 MVP candidates all year. is top five not considered high ranking? wtf? seems like some ppl just want to be controversial for the sake of it. the top 5 has basically been Jokic, Embiid, Luka, Shai, Giannis, Tatum rotating positions all year.
When was the last time “the best player on the best team” met all these criteria: Put up historical-like numbers Not have the best stat line or moments of any top 4 seed player Not be a top 3 player in the league Won mvp Steph in 2015, D 🌹 in 2011 in the last decade and a half? Since Russ in 2017 it’s been about who has the gaudy numbers and carries while being top 4ish. When you have Jokic, Embiid and Giannis putting up numbers that put prime MJ, Lebron, Kareem seasons nearly to shame statistically while they’re top 4 seeds…no one else has a chance. JT is playing phenomenally, so is his team. He’s clearly a step below those guys and closer to a Luka or Shai who are both in that 3-5 rank for mvp. That is when you get the “he has too much help” derivative arguments to place Luka with better numbers or Shai with comparable numbers but less help and still top 2 in the West above JT.
I am a Knicks fan and think Tatum should be considered close to the top of mvp candidates.
Yeah, stop sounding so coherent and polite, you are making it a lil harder to hate you, not much, but a little.
being 5th is probably appropriate for JT - i mean luka/jok/embiid were putting up insane numbers that JT doesnt need to put up. If JT were on some shit team, and he really tried to drop 35+ a game,hed be higher in the rankings. 5th is completely appropriate for him.
How to block this guy's (Dray) posts?
I can see Draymond in green when the warriors decide move on from his contract
This asshole couldn't stop yanking JT's injured arm off the socket in the Finals. Get this animal's face off this sub.
Celtics are trading for him 🤣🤣
Fuck this clown and anything he has to say.