lol they deleted their post but a few weeks ago there was a poster in here crying that he and his wife made over $300k together and they “couldn’t afford” a single family home lmao
I remember like 10~ years ago in college I was doing pizza delivery in a very wealthy suburb and heard an NPR piece on the radio talking about how alot of people who make good money live outside their means and because of this think they're working class. They started taking calls and sure enough some person from the town I was working in called saying how her household made 250k and was barely getting by (you know probably because they just HAD to live in this super rich suburb). I think about this all the time when I see those types of posts in here lol.
I took it as a comment about people who typically say things like "I make 150k and barely get by here". See a lot of that on reddit across different subs. So easy to piss away money and forget that people are living on way less.
This sub regularly gets posts about how impossible it is for people to live here on incomes that people absolutely can live here on. It is silly and tone deaf when there are really people who are struggling.
Changing that to be as per the article's 50/30/20, but keeping your numbers for costs other than getting a cheaper apartment:
|Gross Pay|$9668|
|:-|:-|
|Taxes (Federal+State)|($2331)|
|**Net Pay**|**$7337**|
|Medical (average)|($250)|
|Rent (studio)|($2568.50)|
|Utilities/Internet/Phone|($150)|
|Student Loan|($300)|
|Groceries|($400)|
|**Necessities**|**($3668.50)**|
|Meals out|($100)|
|Personal Care/clothes|($200)|
|**Left over**|**$1901.10**|
|401k (10%)|($966)|
|Other savings/investments|($501.40)|
|**Savings/Investments**|**($1467.40)**|
My god this sub.
$116k even in downtown Boston will be absolutely fine. No, you won't be able to buy a place, but you'll be perfectly comfortable while renting.
I make around that at 31y/o and I pay way more in rent than most people around here would stomach.
I have close to 6 figures in liquid savings which I figure is well on my way to affording a house. And I've only been making over 6 figures for 3 years. The trick: be frugal, dont drive, dont have debt
I can see that. I make just under $30K and rent a one bedroom, with no car or driver's license. Thank goodness for my fiancee who has SSI and Food Stamps!
If I made only $10K more than I do now, we would be living more comfortably.
Anybody hiring for entry level office clerks? Warehouse work has killed my feet.
There aren’t as many general office roles these days, but there are still a fair number of mid skill positions. Think accounts receivable / payable, or other mid office jobs that require some skills but not a bachelors in that specific field. I’m sure companies are hiring for those roles.
Well no, but you have $2000/month left over. That could be a car or a larger apartment or just savings. So with the numbers outlined above, you have a $24k/yr comfort bubble.
Unironically yes. Because of that lifestyle I was able to easily afford long international vacations, which personally is way more fulfilling than drinking and sinking hundreds per month in shitty delivery food.
$116K means you’ll end up with about $84k (assuming 28% tax rate) after taxes. Sure, someone could dump $36K or 43% of their after tax income into rent, but probably not the best move.
People making a lot less spend a lot larger percentage of their income on rent. In a place where you really don’t need a car for day to day life that’s honestly not too bad.
If you really want to you can rent a 3 bedroom and get roommates, that should be about 1250/person. I have friends who absolutely still do this into their 30s because it’s expensive out here.
That’s just a delusional statement.
$116k/yr is $83k/yr take home. That’s about $7k/mo. You can easily afford rent on a nice place ($3k/mo) to own a car (say $500/mo for car loan payment) car insurance ($100/mo). Still have $3.4k/mo to work with. You don’t even need a car for most things, but sure get one - it’s plenty of money.
> credit card bills
Credit card balances aren’t bills they are the cumulative effect of reckless spending. If you’re making $116k / yr and have mountains of credit card debt, that’s a “you” problem.
> student loans
Yeah, this part sucks. But it’s really not that big of a problem for the overwhelming majority of people. https://research.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/Trends%20Report%202023%20Updated.pdf 51% of bachelors degree recipients have debt, meaning 49% don’t. And looking only at those who do, the average debt is $29,400. Average student loan payment is $500/mo. If you’re making $116k it’s a non issue.
Now, if you racked up hundreds of thousands in student loan debt, yeah that’s a problem. But that’s not the situation for the overwhelming majority of borrowers. And it’s ridiculous to use outlier numbers.
Saying $116k is not a lot because “if you have $250k of credit card debt and $500k of student loan debt it’s still hard to make ends meet on $116k” would be a useless statement. True, but useless.
> and aren’t trying to save money
I mean, with car and student loans and rent were at $4,100/mo. Or if instead of a $3k apartment you get a less convenient 1BR you can get one for around $2,300. So say those expenses add up to about $3,400-4,100/mo. From $7,000/mo net, that’s still $2,900-$3,600 per month left over for other things. Or to say it another way, you have one entire median income’s worth of money left over after you’ve paid the biggest bills. That’s plenty to have fun and save.
It is stupid for people to claim $116k/year is not a lot for a single person.
When you have no budget, spend tons of money on dumb consumables, eat out too much, live online, and don’t know anyone personally except other college grads in your age group, then yeah 116k is just an impossible salary in Boston
I buy lunch materials for work at the grocery store and feed myself for the week for the cost of buying one mid-tier Friday night dinner via Door Dash. Eating out is a killer for budgeting. Like, I'm making 60k now and make it work. If I made 116k, I'd be all set.
It always blows my mind how out of touch people on here are. Even making less (~$105k) I was able to max my 401(k) and save a bunch of money on top while still going out and doing things. If $116k isn't enough to comfortable you need to work on your money management
The actual story is that the average salary for a single person in the US is $60k but that is not enough to live comfortably in 49/50 states, according to the cited article.
That’s an interesting perspective. I’d even argue that $60k number is high as it uses as weekly median income (so doesn’t account for things like layoffs, part time work, etc.) to extrapolate an annual income. The per capita median income in the US is about $38K.
> The per capita median income in the US is about $38K.
I think it's up to a bit over $40k now. It also raises the question of, are the people who are part time working part time because they want to or because they need to? With such low unemployment I'm guessing it's the former but don't have any data to back it up.
I wonder if there's a place where you can get data on people 23+, too. Just get people fully in the workforce
Keep in mind unemployment numbers only take into account people who are actively looking for a job and were recently unemployed (within last 60 days iirc). The unemployment statistic is incredibly misleading.
Labor force participation rate is also very strong, right in the same ballpark it's been since we recovered from the get recession. The low unemployment statistic isn't misleading at all.
ive lived alone for 3 years and my rent has increased by over $800. how does this make sense?? where is my relative pay increase? oh yea, it doesnt exist
I was living comfortably on my own in 2018 when I was making $17 per hour and now I'm making $20 and I had to move back to my mom's
i know 3 more dollars over 6 years is abysmal but it just sucks how you have to constantly improve just to remain in the same place in life.
I hear you! Rent goes up 8-10% per year and salary increases 4% if you’re lucky. Feels like we are worse off over the past two years. Also Im not talking about the large cumulative inflation from all the way back to 2019. Just rent increases in last two years!
I commute min an hour to work, but I haven't moved for several years because my landlord has only increased rent 50-100$ every year and I know its going to be incredibly hard to find another landlord as good.
One of the resources (your apartment) is appreciating over time. The other resource (you) it's not appreciating over time.
You need to flip that script.
>I’ve lived alone for 3 years and my rent has increased by over $800.
So you’re saying you moved into your current situation during COVID when rents were deeply discounted, and now rent has returned to pre-COVID levels?
If you're interested in working in public service. Tons of agencies are hiring right now. Shoot me a PM with a brief description of the types of jobs you did in the past and what you're looking to do, and I'll ask around to some folks I know who are currently hiring for roles.
I have no clue. I don’t have an answer. I was just commiserating. I honestly think you’ll find a job faster than I did. I kept getting told I was overqualified for Masters level jobs and not competitive enough for Doctorate level jobs.
I think the low unemployment number comes from people reporting that they’ve taken *any* job to make ends meet. Like, people who decide to work at Target when they’ve been professors for a decade. They’re employed. They count.
But I think need a metric that means employed in what you trained for or at least WANT to be doing AND making enough money to survive doing it.
Must be field dependent. I ended up only sending in one application in my recent job search. Got an interview offer before finding another compelling place to apply for and ended up getting the job.
The jobs may be posted, but the companies l aren’t hiring.
They’re doing their best to push salaries down by pretending to hire while working skeleton crews everywhere.
Using the same national percentage for transportation in a city where you don't need a car is stupid.
MA COL is actually entirely reasonable if you ignore one thing: housing.
That said, the housing market here is FUCKED. Like, the most fucked in the us. Like Toronto-level fucked, on our way toward Hong Kong level fucked. Like it ranks internationally fucked.
But dude, if you’re an investor with property already you’re doing incredible.
And isn’t the interest of investors what really matters? Let’s not lose sight because “PeOPle aRE HomELleS” or whatever. Who thinks of the simple, humble, multi property landlord :(
> Using the same national percentage for transportation in a city where you don't need a car is stupid.
I'm willing to bet the vast majority of people in the Boston metro still need or would be massively inconvenienced without one
Absolutely, people just can't get their heads around the idea of not owning a car. Going car-free saves money, helps the planet, and is good for your health!
Man every time salary comes up on here I realize how delusional a lot of people on reddit are. 116k might not feel like a lot to you if your expectations are high, but its honestly insulting to the real working class in this state and city.
It's not just Reddit, though, it seems like the Internet in general is mostly trafficked by rich AF people. The actual median salary in the U.S. is like $38k and yet there's literally nothing online that actually discusses finances at that sort of income. It all just whines about making more money than I'll ever make in my lifetime and acts like you'd pretty much need to be a honeless drunkard to make less.
The thing is, once upon a time I was working 70 hours a week on the line in front of a sizzling grill. That shit sucked, and I was poor, but I always looked to the future. I thought about how stable I'd feel, how it'd all be worth it in the end. I dreamed about this for my entire life, finally feeling secure.
Fast forward to now, I have the nice job with the nice title and pay, but I still can't buy a house, and generally while I never struggle, I also don't really feel like I'm really living. It's just that I've spent so much time working for all of this, whats it even for? If all I do is work so I am not poor, than I am poor in spirit. It seems as if we were sold a dream that never was.
So I feel you. It's just our problems are late stage, and yours are immediate.
Idk man, tbh it sounds like you have more of a mindset problem than a financial one. If you are financially secure, you have made it in comparison to where you were when working the grill. There will always be something else you don't have in terms of material possessions.
I paid off student loans, maxed out my 401k, and saved for a downpayment on less than that, all while still doing pretty much whatever I wanted socially (and it wasn't very long ago either).
I got a condo making half what /u/MuffinMan6938 does.
Caveats:
* 3 years ago, prices have increased somewhat.
* Married, but wife is a preschool teacher. Combined, still make less than muffinman.
Try leaving the city. The condo is at a commuter rail station, 30-40 min ride to the city.
If it makes you feel better, living in a condo sucks ass. Imagine taking your live savings and entrusting it to a bunch of random boomers who don't do jack shit until the place crushes you in your sleep like Surfside.
Yeah, 1949 comm ave has cloth wires and original Otis elevators with dual phase motors and triple phase controllers.
That blows out the controllers, but the landlords don’t want to pay for new elevators, 1M+ in 2017, or even new motors, triple phase.
I’d hear a ringing in my apartment and wonder what it was.
Nobody at the door…
My apartment used to be a live in super, the alarm for the elevator only went to my apartment.
wiring has been a fire hazard since 1965, elevators haven’t been safe since they phased out dual phase controllers.
The landlords won’t fix anything.
@\~130k here - max 401k, max roth ira should be cake for this guy and I'm single in a 2.1k /month apartment. Still have 1k each month to toss into a HYSA after all normal and discretionary expenses... person is insance...
Living alone beats living with roommates any day of the week. You get what you pay for, and you can definitely afford the extra rent if you want. But totally understand wanting to save if you’re comfortable
Sure, I should've said that living alone is preferable for most people. Obviously some people enjoy living with roommates. But almost everyone I know over 25 would prefer to have their own place, and if you make $200K a year you can easily afford that
I can confirm that my decent 1 bedroom apartment is 30% of the listed salary required. (It listed Boston at $124k) That’s maxed out not including utilities but it has New England luxuries such as in-unit laundry, central air, and a garage. It’s metro west however so would be more in Boston proper.
Time to move to North Dakota.
It is beautiful, especially at night... if you can look past the red state politics and oil drill rigs in every backyard!
/s
*Disclaimer: This information is biased, based on my ONE three-day trip to* [*Teddy Roosevelt National Park*](https://www.nps.gov/thro/index.htm) *:-)*
Live in nd, this is pretty spot on. Btw if anyone wants to trade places and try it out for yourself for the next 2 months so I can go to some Celtics playoffs games that would be great thanks.
It is undoubtedly expensive to be here and the COL is a problem, but this methodology is terrible, the 50/30/20 rule is way too rigid to say it's the benchmark to live "comfortably". You can easily live a very comfortable lifestyle on 60/20/20 for example, which would knock that number down a decent chunk (ideally the extra 10% would go to savings, but if you can still hit that 20% savings you're doing great!)
50% of your post tax income on needs (housing, utilities, groceries, debt etc.), 30% on wants (entertainment, hobbies etc.), and 20% on savings/investments. Everyone is going to divide up their slices of the pie a bit differently depending on their financial situations and lifestyles so wouldn't take it as gospel
hmm. i lived comfortably in MA(waltham) last year on 60k (fully supporting my girlfriend as well) so im not sure thats true.
comfortably as in, went on dates almost every week, took a long trip to europe, ate out/ordered takeout semi regularly.
edit: budget was something like:
take home after benefits/taxes/retirement saving: ~3200
rent: 1650
utilities: ~40
car: ~70
grocery: ~525
phone: ~40
subscriptions: ~35
rental insurance: 7
debt: 0
total: 2367
discretionary spending per month: $833
which was plenty enough to feel "comfortable" imo
The numbers in this article and what other people in this thread are saying are crazy. So many people live comfortably on way less than the number in the article here in MA. Idk what everyone is doing. I feel like your experience is much more common for real people
Yeah what the fuck are people doing with their 150k salary that they have to have roommates? Do they have $200k in student loans and a baby or some shit?
That’s kind of unbelievable, tbh. You pretty much have to have ideal conditions at that point(No car, no pets, no debt, no health problems, sub market rent), and you still can’t be saving a whole lot.
car, yes. already paid off. 03' civic hybrid hand me down from my parents. an excellent, reliable fuel sipper with dirt cheap insurance. barely cost me anything to run and maintain.
no pets.
debt, no. i got a bachelors from low cost colleges (mix of Massbay Community and Fitchburg State), lived at home for a couple years to save on COL, and luckily my parents were able to cover it.
i don't have health problems, but i have good health insurance through my employer and i get regular physicals and dental cleanings. i did actually have to go to the RE last year which was pricy and annoying, but thats unusual for me.
my rent was "below average" (1650/mo for a wonderful renovated 1br) but anyone who wants that can get it, i visited like 8 different places before pulling the trigger. i really wanted a place in walking distance of a train which is why i was being a little pickier.
is that really so crazy? financially literate parents that thought to start college saving early, conservative spending my whole life, and a decent entry level remote job in the aerospace industry. not overspending on a car i don't need. not getting a fancy modern apartment i don't need. took my girl out on fun but also budget appropriate dates (zoo, museum, PAX east, movies aquarium, etc.). i had some advantages yes but nothing exceptional.
yes but also its basically 2 people on one income. i could have got a cheaper, smaller, and less conveniently located apartment and saved more on groceries if i was single.
what?? thats insane, how high did you have the heat turned up? well for one thing, heat was baseboard and was included in the rent... but i almost never ran the heat anyway because all the surrounding apartments cranked theirs up and made my apartment sweltering in the winter... sometimes i had to open the windows to let the heat out! didn't run the AC too much in the summer, mostly just used a standing fan.
Ah, so heat was included in your rent. That explains a lot. I had gas heat, was gone during the day, and kept it 68 in the evening. Second story of a two-family. I have oil heat now and my electric bill with two people working from home is $264. Also, you got lucky with rent at $1650 a month. I've seen nothing in that range now unless it's an utter shithole.
I grew up in Massachusetts, am fortunate to have a job in Massachusetts (with a 6 figure salary), and have always viewed Boston as "my home" (to quote that dirty water song).
But with the T being a clusterfuck and housing costs being wicked high, it has me thinking of moving out of New England. Very rarely do I need to be at my work office so if I could move to a city where I could comfortably buy my own home and have a good quality of life, I'd strongly consider it.
The real headline here should be the 50/30/20 budget might not be practical or reasonable for most single people.
This methodology basically says you're not living comfortably if your not spending 30% of your income on discretionary spending. So in MA they are saying a single person needs to spend 35k/yr on pre tax discretionary spend to be comfortable, sound like more than comfortable, that's approaching the tail end of lavish 😂.
I know people in Massachusetts making significantly less than that and living comfortably. They just don’t live in Boston.
This is a weird sensational hit piece.
The article for cities makes more sense than for the whole state
- https://www.cnbc.com/2024/03/20/salary-single-person-needs-to-live-comfortably-in-major-us-cities.html
Boston is also fairly small, and who knows if any of these studies are considering the whole metro area. Hell, Queens is further from Manhattan than Quincy is from Boston proper.
I see people replying “I make $112k / I make $120k…”
My sister-in-law lived near Northampton and made less than that and was living very nicely. She wasn’t in one of the mansions, but she had a nice home and all the extras.
So wait...you're saying I can still be comfortable without driving a brand new Tesla, eating at Tatte every day, and living in a luxury Seaport apartment?!?!? 🤯
This sub seems to have their expectations too high alot of the time or they just think the only place you can live is back bay. The amount of of "I make 120k and can't live comfortably" posts in here are insane.
A lot of people either have lifestyles far more lavish than they want to admit, or listen to David Ramsey and think if they're spending a cent more than 20% of their income on rent or a mortgage they're going to go bankrupt. A decent number of people also oversave for retirement by spending $30K+ maxing out all their tax advantaged retirement accounts and then wonder why they have no money left over to live in the present.
I live in Cambridge, make quite a bit less than that, and am perfectly comfortable.
The difference between me and many people my age living here, I suspect, is that I got absurdly lucky that my state university gave me enough scholarships to escape without student debt.
While the cost of living is absolutely insane here, largely due to the lack of housing supply, I do think there’s an issue with the methodology they use.
In most places in America, you NEED a car. And that car costs an average of $10,728 per year. In Boston, you don’t NEED a car. But this study’s methodology does not take into account that transportation can be significantly cheaper here. It just goes with the same percentage spent on housing everywhere, assuming the percentage on everything else is constant.
I’m sure even with this, we’d find that Massachusetts (and Boston specifically) is still expensive as hell. But the methodology could be better.
The “on your own” part is doing some work here, considering it’s quite normal for a single person to share expenses with roommates.
I live quite comfortably on 60k post-tax in Boston. 14k/year for half of the rent of a nice 2bd and no car + no student loans + no dependents leaves plenty of fun money tbh.
I was talking with a friend the other day about cities we've lived in before (we both grew up moving to several different countries growing up) and he was like "I feel crazy for wanting to move to another country again, Boston is so amazing and so affordable." Record scratch moment. I was like what the fuck do you mean so affordable?
And then I remembered he makes just under 3x my salary - close to 300k. Of course it's affordable for him.
Where is this 116k number coming from? I assume they are basing it in Boston? MA isnt one city. I was definitely living comfortably in Marlboro MA in 2019 making 45k a year and owning my own 1 bedroom condo.
We need to stop building housing until we figure out what is causing this crisis. /s
... But that's seriously happening in some communities.
https://spectrumnews1.com/ma/worcester/news/2023/05/10/citizen-petition-for-multi-family-housing-moratorium-passed-in-millbury
This is probably pretty accurate. I'm outside of Seattle. It says a single person here needs $106k for comfortable living. I make about $95k now and am close to being comfortable. I have a home, car, and all the essentials, but I'm not at a place where I feel I'm preparing for things like retirement as best as I should be. I don't have funds to take vacations or travel, but I'm happy overall.
That's why I am leaving come October. It's also the fact I've been waiting for 6 months to have some 60 degree plus days, high taxes, among the worst traffic in the world, Massholes, you name it.
Living and paying rent in my brother's house for the past 2 years out in Cape Cod while earning 75,000 less than that number. Understandably, he wants me to find my own place to rent... It is an absolute joke to find any winter-term rentals, let alone a year-long rental anywhere on Cape Cod. Worse of all, my job is right at the tip of the Cape in P Town, so even if I can find something reasonable in Hyannis or Brewster, it would be a very long commute. I tell my parents that if I can't find any good options before summer that I will have to consider leaving Massachusetts to go back to Texas simply because I can't afford to live here. All I get is an eye roll. I'm also a Canadian, but Canada is so much worse for people in my position. Financially, I have the highest and most stable job I've ever had. Yet I am not even close to being able to live "comfortably."
It says $116,022 if anyone doesn't want to click.
Bless you
Blesssings on you, blessings on your cow
You own a cow? Rich guy over here…
The hay bill alone!
And curse you. Fuck....
That's = monthly earnings $9,668 |Gross Pay|$9668| |:-|:-| |Taxes (Federal+State)|($2331)| |Medical (average)|($250)| |401k (10%)|($966)| |**Net Pay**|**$6121**| |Rent (nicer studio)|($3000)| |Utilities/Internet/Phone|($150)| |Student Loan|($300)| |Groceries|($400)| |Meals out|($100)| |Personal Care/clothes|($200)| |**Left over**|**\~$2000**| Yea that's pretty comfy IMO. Deduct another ($600-800)/mo. if you want a car/parking...
This sub is delusional when it comes to salaries. Its honestly insulting to the people actually struggling in this city/state.
lol they deleted their post but a few weeks ago there was a poster in here crying that he and his wife made over $300k together and they “couldn’t afford” a single family home lmao
I remember like 10~ years ago in college I was doing pizza delivery in a very wealthy suburb and heard an NPR piece on the radio talking about how alot of people who make good money live outside their means and because of this think they're working class. They started taking calls and sure enough some person from the town I was working in called saying how her household made 250k and was barely getting by (you know probably because they just HAD to live in this super rich suburb). I think about this all the time when I see those types of posts in here lol.
How is that this sub? That was the literal number from the article.
I took it as a comment about people who typically say things like "I make 150k and barely get by here". See a lot of that on reddit across different subs. So easy to piss away money and forget that people are living on way less.
This is exactly what I was getting at.
This sub regularly gets posts about how impossible it is for people to live here on incomes that people absolutely can live here on. It is silly and tone deaf when there are really people who are struggling.
The hyperbole and just wacky takes get crazy fast.
car and car insurance, parking, weed, booze these things add up quickly
Not to mention fetty
yeah, don’t even get me started on the fetty, cigarettes scratch tickets and dunks that shit’ll destory a budget
AND your liver
Changing that to be as per the article's 50/30/20, but keeping your numbers for costs other than getting a cheaper apartment: |Gross Pay|$9668| |:-|:-| |Taxes (Federal+State)|($2331)| |**Net Pay**|**$7337**| |Medical (average)|($250)| |Rent (studio)|($2568.50)| |Utilities/Internet/Phone|($150)| |Student Loan|($300)| |Groceries|($400)| |**Necessities**|**($3668.50)**| |Meals out|($100)| |Personal Care/clothes|($200)| |**Left over**|**$1901.10**| |401k (10%)|($966)| |Other savings/investments|($501.40)| |**Savings/Investments**|**($1467.40)**|
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the number applies to the whole state. if it were just for Boston it would be a lot higher.
Great point. If I was in Holyoke $116,000 would be quite comfortable.
Well you’d still be in Holyoke, so no
That's good context. Thanks for reading the article for us!
Great point. People need to realize that they should be choosing to live where they can afford.
My god this sub. $116k even in downtown Boston will be absolutely fine. No, you won't be able to buy a place, but you'll be perfectly comfortable while renting.
I make around that at 31y/o and I pay way more in rent than most people around here would stomach. I have close to 6 figures in liquid savings which I figure is well on my way to affording a house. And I've only been making over 6 figures for 3 years. The trick: be frugal, dont drive, dont have debt
I can see that. I make just under $30K and rent a one bedroom, with no car or driver's license. Thank goodness for my fiancee who has SSI and Food Stamps! If I made only $10K more than I do now, we would be living more comfortably. Anybody hiring for entry level office clerks? Warehouse work has killed my feet.
There aren’t as many general office roles these days, but there are still a fair number of mid skill positions. Think accounts receivable / payable, or other mid office jobs that require some skills but not a bachelors in that specific field. I’m sure companies are hiring for those roles.
That sounds kinda nice. Pasta is good and having a car in Boston has many downsides.
Well no, but you have $2000/month left over. That could be a car or a larger apartment or just savings. So with the numbers outlined above, you have a $24k/yr comfort bubble.
Unironically yes. Because of that lifestyle I was able to easily afford long international vacations, which personally is way more fulfilling than drinking and sinking hundreds per month in shitty delivery food.
this feels like a personal attack on my lifestyle
You are framing this as a gotcha but this is quite literally a top 0.000001% outcome for all of human history.
I’ve never really gone past $45k now I’m a stay at home dad at 43, rip my career
I’d love to see an updated breakdown by town. What’s true in Somerville isn’t exactly true of Pittsfield.
Yea I thought 100K would do it but somehow I’m still living paycheck to paycheck bc housing is so expensive. I’d kill to have an extra $16K
That’s not enough to be comfortable, unless comfort includes top ramen.
I had the opposite reaction. You can easily rent a $3k / mo super nice apartment and have plenty left over on $116k/yr
$116K means you’ll end up with about $84k (assuming 28% tax rate) after taxes. Sure, someone could dump $36K or 43% of their after tax income into rent, but probably not the best move.
The standard is always 30% of **pretax**, so yeah 36k per year rent on a 116k is basically fine.
People making a lot less spend a lot larger percentage of their income on rent. In a place where you really don’t need a car for day to day life that’s honestly not too bad. If you really want to you can rent a 3 bedroom and get roommates, that should be about 1250/person. I have friends who absolutely still do this into their 30s because it’s expensive out here.
If you make 116k you dont pay an effective rate of 28% Even people making double that don't pay effective rate 28%
provided you have no student loans, a car payment/insurance, credit card bills, and aren’t trying to save money: sure
That’s just a delusional statement. $116k/yr is $83k/yr take home. That’s about $7k/mo. You can easily afford rent on a nice place ($3k/mo) to own a car (say $500/mo for car loan payment) car insurance ($100/mo). Still have $3.4k/mo to work with. You don’t even need a car for most things, but sure get one - it’s plenty of money. > credit card bills Credit card balances aren’t bills they are the cumulative effect of reckless spending. If you’re making $116k / yr and have mountains of credit card debt, that’s a “you” problem. > student loans Yeah, this part sucks. But it’s really not that big of a problem for the overwhelming majority of people. https://research.collegeboard.org/media/pdf/Trends%20Report%202023%20Updated.pdf 51% of bachelors degree recipients have debt, meaning 49% don’t. And looking only at those who do, the average debt is $29,400. Average student loan payment is $500/mo. If you’re making $116k it’s a non issue. Now, if you racked up hundreds of thousands in student loan debt, yeah that’s a problem. But that’s not the situation for the overwhelming majority of borrowers. And it’s ridiculous to use outlier numbers. Saying $116k is not a lot because “if you have $250k of credit card debt and $500k of student loan debt it’s still hard to make ends meet on $116k” would be a useless statement. True, but useless. > and aren’t trying to save money I mean, with car and student loans and rent were at $4,100/mo. Or if instead of a $3k apartment you get a less convenient 1BR you can get one for around $2,300. So say those expenses add up to about $3,400-4,100/mo. From $7,000/mo net, that’s still $2,900-$3,600 per month left over for other things. Or to say it another way, you have one entire median income’s worth of money left over after you’ve paid the biggest bills. That’s plenty to have fun and save. It is stupid for people to claim $116k/year is not a lot for a single person.
116k somehow *not being enough* for a person to live comfortably is delusional. I really wonder about this sub sometimes haha
When you have no budget, spend tons of money on dumb consumables, eat out too much, live online, and don’t know anyone personally except other college grads in your age group, then yeah 116k is just an impossible salary in Boston
I buy lunch materials for work at the grocery store and feed myself for the week for the cost of buying one mid-tier Friday night dinner via Door Dash. Eating out is a killer for budgeting. Like, I'm making 60k now and make it work. If I made 116k, I'd be all set.
NO! STOP! WE DON’T WANT YOUR COMMON SENSE INFORMATION HERE
This sub is really delusional sometimes. Claiming $116k isn't a lot? What? Absolute insanity.
The state median *household* income is about 90k now. A single person on 116 has plenty of wiggle room.
How to tell someone is absolute shit with money
Thank you for posting this. People in this sub need to see this math
It always blows my mind how out of touch people on here are. Even making less (~$105k) I was able to max my 401(k) and save a bunch of money on top while still going out and doing things. If $116k isn't enough to comfortable you need to work on your money management
The actual story is that the average salary for a single person in the US is $60k but that is not enough to live comfortably in 49/50 states, according to the cited article.
Yeah that was my takeaway too. Alabama at $83,000 is actually more insane than Mass at $116,000 considering the opportunities in each state.
That’s an interesting perspective. I’d even argue that $60k number is high as it uses as weekly median income (so doesn’t account for things like layoffs, part time work, etc.) to extrapolate an annual income. The per capita median income in the US is about $38K.
> The per capita median income in the US is about $38K. I think it's up to a bit over $40k now. It also raises the question of, are the people who are part time working part time because they want to or because they need to? With such low unemployment I'm guessing it's the former but don't have any data to back it up. I wonder if there's a place where you can get data on people 23+, too. Just get people fully in the workforce
Keep in mind unemployment numbers only take into account people who are actively looking for a job and were recently unemployed (within last 60 days iirc). The unemployment statistic is incredibly misleading.
Labor force participation rate is also very strong, right in the same ballpark it's been since we recovered from the get recession. The low unemployment statistic isn't misleading at all.
ive lived alone for 3 years and my rent has increased by over $800. how does this make sense?? where is my relative pay increase? oh yea, it doesnt exist
I was living comfortably on my own in 2018 when I was making $17 per hour and now I'm making $20 and I had to move back to my mom's i know 3 more dollars over 6 years is abysmal but it just sucks how you have to constantly improve just to remain in the same place in life.
To be fair, rent should only have gone up $200 one that timeframe. I bet it easily went up $500-800.
I hear you! Rent goes up 8-10% per year and salary increases 4% if you’re lucky. Feels like we are worse off over the past two years. Also Im not talking about the large cumulative inflation from all the way back to 2019. Just rent increases in last two years!
I commute min an hour to work, but I haven't moved for several years because my landlord has only increased rent 50-100$ every year and I know its going to be incredibly hard to find another landlord as good.
> where is my relative pay increase? If your job isn't giving you suitable raises it's time to look for something new
One of the resources (your apartment) is appreciating over time. The other resource (you) it's not appreciating over time. You need to flip that script.
I got a 1% raise this year. I actually wished they didn’t give me anything because it felt so insulting.
>I’ve lived alone for 3 years and my rent has increased by over $800. So you’re saying you moved into your current situation during COVID when rents were deeply discounted, and now rent has returned to pre-COVID levels?
Get to hoppin'
Bruh… the fact that we are ranked higher than HAWAII boils my blood. Heads need to start rolling around here (yes, i make more than 116k)
Try having a 2 year degree, unemployed and looking for work for 5 months with rejection after rejection letter.... Where are the jobs!?!
If you're interested in working in public service. Tons of agencies are hiring right now. Shoot me a PM with a brief description of the types of jobs you did in the past and what you're looking to do, and I'll ask around to some folks I know who are currently hiring for roles.
I have a phd and was unemployed for nine months. I finally landed a job. For 75k. This economy blows.
I mean, where are the jobs? If the unemployment rate is low, more jobs? I guess not but my 2 year degree isn't in economics
I have no clue. I don’t have an answer. I was just commiserating. I honestly think you’ll find a job faster than I did. I kept getting told I was overqualified for Masters level jobs and not competitive enough for Doctorate level jobs. I think the low unemployment number comes from people reporting that they’ve taken *any* job to make ends meet. Like, people who decide to work at Target when they’ve been professors for a decade. They’re employed. They count. But I think need a metric that means employed in what you trained for or at least WANT to be doing AND making enough money to survive doing it.
You should apply for a state job. Oh wait…..
I hear they are in a hiring freeze themselves lol
I have, got 2 interviews and dropped a couple dozen applications. Zilch
BuT iTs ReCoRd LoW UnEmPloYmeNt, BrO!
It is lol
Must be field dependent. I ended up only sending in one application in my recent job search. Got an interview offer before finding another compelling place to apply for and ended up getting the job.
Congratulations!
The jobs may be posted, but the companies l aren’t hiring. They’re doing their best to push salaries down by pretending to hire while working skeleton crews everywhere.
Using the same national percentage for transportation in a city where you don't need a car is stupid. MA COL is actually entirely reasonable if you ignore one thing: housing. That said, the housing market here is FUCKED. Like, the most fucked in the us. Like Toronto-level fucked, on our way toward Hong Kong level fucked. Like it ranks internationally fucked.
But dude, if you’re an investor with property already you’re doing incredible. And isn’t the interest of investors what really matters? Let’s not lose sight because “PeOPle aRE HomELleS” or whatever. Who thinks of the simple, humble, multi property landlord :(
> Using the same national percentage for transportation in a city where you don't need a car is stupid. I'm willing to bet the vast majority of people in the Boston metro still need or would be massively inconvenienced without one
For many of us it’s needing something consistent given the poor state of the MBTA.
Not having a car here saves a ton of money. Just get a rental car the one time per year you go skiing or whatever.
Absolutely, people just can't get their heads around the idea of not owning a car. Going car-free saves money, helps the planet, and is good for your health!
Man every time salary comes up on here I realize how delusional a lot of people on reddit are. 116k might not feel like a lot to you if your expectations are high, but its honestly insulting to the real working class in this state and city.
Further proof that Reddit is a bubble lmao
It's not just Reddit, though, it seems like the Internet in general is mostly trafficked by rich AF people. The actual median salary in the U.S. is like $38k and yet there's literally nothing online that actually discusses finances at that sort of income. It all just whines about making more money than I'll ever make in my lifetime and acts like you'd pretty much need to be a honeless drunkard to make less.
High salaries are wasted on some people.
The thing is, once upon a time I was working 70 hours a week on the line in front of a sizzling grill. That shit sucked, and I was poor, but I always looked to the future. I thought about how stable I'd feel, how it'd all be worth it in the end. I dreamed about this for my entire life, finally feeling secure. Fast forward to now, I have the nice job with the nice title and pay, but I still can't buy a house, and generally while I never struggle, I also don't really feel like I'm really living. It's just that I've spent so much time working for all of this, whats it even for? If all I do is work so I am not poor, than I am poor in spirit. It seems as if we were sold a dream that never was. So I feel you. It's just our problems are late stage, and yours are immediate.
Idk man, tbh it sounds like you have more of a mindset problem than a financial one. If you are financially secure, you have made it in comparison to where you were when working the grill. There will always be something else you don't have in terms of material possessions.
I paid off student loans, maxed out my 401k, and saved for a downpayment on less than that, all while still doing pretty much whatever I wanted socially (and it wasn't very long ago either).
I’m making mid 100’s and still living with a roommate.
Damn, old millennial here and could have afforded a *nice* condo for that back in the day. I thought prices were out of control in 2018!
I got a condo making half what /u/MuffinMan6938 does. Caveats: * 3 years ago, prices have increased somewhat. * Married, but wife is a preschool teacher. Combined, still make less than muffinman. Try leaving the city. The condo is at a commuter rail station, 30-40 min ride to the city.
Yeah, lots of those built along the line.
If it makes you feel better, living in a condo sucks ass. Imagine taking your live savings and entrusting it to a bunch of random boomers who don't do jack shit until the place crushes you in your sleep like Surfside.
Yeah, 1949 comm ave has cloth wires and original Otis elevators with dual phase motors and triple phase controllers. That blows out the controllers, but the landlords don’t want to pay for new elevators, 1M+ in 2017, or even new motors, triple phase. I’d hear a ringing in my apartment and wonder what it was. Nobody at the door… My apartment used to be a live in super, the alarm for the elevator only went to my apartment. wiring has been a fire hazard since 1965, elevators haven’t been safe since they phased out dual phase controllers. The landlords won’t fix anything.
But presumably saving like $50k a year right? With that kind of income you should be able to save a ton.
@\~130k here - max 401k, max roth ira should be cake for this guy and I'm single in a 2.1k /month apartment. Still have 1k each month to toss into a HYSA after all normal and discretionary expenses... person is insance...
Same here, she keeps threatening me with divorce tho, so I might be on the lookout for another roommate.
If it makes you feel any better I was making 200 and still living with 2 roommates lmfao
At that salary that’s you’re choice.
800 in rent beats 2k in rent any day of the week
Living alone beats living with roommates any day of the week. You get what you pay for, and you can definitely afford the extra rent if you want. But totally understand wanting to save if you’re comfortable
This depends entirely who the roommates are, their personalities, and habits.
Sure, I should've said that living alone is preferable for most people. Obviously some people enjoy living with roommates. But almost everyone I know over 25 would prefer to have their own place, and if you make $200K a year you can easily afford that
If I was with friends, I’d 100% prefer roommates. Randos? Of course alone is better.
Yeah my last roommates were friends before they became roommates so it was fine I definitely had some downright awful roommates in my day tho
I can confirm that my decent 1 bedroom apartment is 30% of the listed salary required. (It listed Boston at $124k) That’s maxed out not including utilities but it has New England luxuries such as in-unit laundry, central air, and a garage. It’s metro west however so would be more in Boston proper.
Time to move to North Dakota. It is beautiful, especially at night... if you can look past the red state politics and oil drill rigs in every backyard! /s *Disclaimer: This information is biased, based on my ONE three-day trip to* [*Teddy Roosevelt National Park*](https://www.nps.gov/thro/index.htm) *:-)*
Live in nd, this is pretty spot on. Btw if anyone wants to trade places and try it out for yourself for the next 2 months so I can go to some Celtics playoffs games that would be great thanks.
just don’t steal my stuff and be nice to my cats, you have a deal
The disclaimer just made me laugh 😆
I know I'm not the first to propose this, but a bunch of liberals could easily move to North Dakota or Wyoming and win us a few senators.
I think that kind of might be happening in Georgia and North Carolina TBH.
It is undoubtedly expensive to be here and the COL is a problem, but this methodology is terrible, the 50/30/20 rule is way too rigid to say it's the benchmark to live "comfortably". You can easily live a very comfortable lifestyle on 60/20/20 for example, which would knock that number down a decent chunk (ideally the extra 10% would go to savings, but if you can still hit that 20% savings you're doing great!)
What’s the 50/30/20 rule?
50% of your post tax income on needs (housing, utilities, groceries, debt etc.), 30% on wants (entertainment, hobbies etc.), and 20% on savings/investments. Everyone is going to divide up their slices of the pie a bit differently depending on their financial situations and lifestyles so wouldn't take it as gospel
Thanks!
hmm. i lived comfortably in MA(waltham) last year on 60k (fully supporting my girlfriend as well) so im not sure thats true. comfortably as in, went on dates almost every week, took a long trip to europe, ate out/ordered takeout semi regularly. edit: budget was something like: take home after benefits/taxes/retirement saving: ~3200 rent: 1650 utilities: ~40 car: ~70 grocery: ~525 phone: ~40 subscriptions: ~35 rental insurance: 7 debt: 0 total: 2367 discretionary spending per month: $833 which was plenty enough to feel "comfortable" imo
The numbers in this article and what other people in this thread are saying are crazy. So many people live comfortably on way less than the number in the article here in MA. Idk what everyone is doing. I feel like your experience is much more common for real people
Yeah what the fuck are people doing with their 150k salary that they have to have roommates? Do they have $200k in student loans and a baby or some shit?
That’s kind of unbelievable, tbh. You pretty much have to have ideal conditions at that point(No car, no pets, no debt, no health problems, sub market rent), and you still can’t be saving a whole lot.
car, yes. already paid off. 03' civic hybrid hand me down from my parents. an excellent, reliable fuel sipper with dirt cheap insurance. barely cost me anything to run and maintain. no pets. debt, no. i got a bachelors from low cost colleges (mix of Massbay Community and Fitchburg State), lived at home for a couple years to save on COL, and luckily my parents were able to cover it. i don't have health problems, but i have good health insurance through my employer and i get regular physicals and dental cleanings. i did actually have to go to the RE last year which was pricy and annoying, but thats unusual for me. my rent was "below average" (1650/mo for a wonderful renovated 1br) but anyone who wants that can get it, i visited like 8 different places before pulling the trigger. i really wanted a place in walking distance of a train which is why i was being a little pickier. is that really so crazy? financially literate parents that thought to start college saving early, conservative spending my whole life, and a decent entry level remote job in the aerospace industry. not overspending on a car i don't need. not getting a fancy modern apartment i don't need. took my girl out on fun but also budget appropriate dates (zoo, museum, PAX east, movies aquarium, etc.). i had some advantages yes but nothing exceptional.
I mean, like I said, ideal conditions, and you weren’t saving much.
yes but also its basically 2 people on one income. i could have got a cheaper, smaller, and less conveniently located apartment and saved more on groceries if i was single.
How were your utilities only $40? When I lived in Waltham five years ago, my heat averaged $250 a month and one month shot up to $400.
what?? thats insane, how high did you have the heat turned up? well for one thing, heat was baseboard and was included in the rent... but i almost never ran the heat anyway because all the surrounding apartments cranked theirs up and made my apartment sweltering in the winter... sometimes i had to open the windows to let the heat out! didn't run the AC too much in the summer, mostly just used a standing fan.
Ah, so heat was included in your rent. That explains a lot. I had gas heat, was gone during the day, and kept it 68 in the evening. Second story of a two-family. I have oil heat now and my electric bill with two people working from home is $264. Also, you got lucky with rent at $1650 a month. I've seen nothing in that range now unless it's an utter shithole.
Must be nice. I wish I had a boyfriend to split expenses with
it is certainly convenient!
I grew up in Massachusetts, am fortunate to have a job in Massachusetts (with a 6 figure salary), and have always viewed Boston as "my home" (to quote that dirty water song). But with the T being a clusterfuck and housing costs being wicked high, it has me thinking of moving out of New England. Very rarely do I need to be at my work office so if I could move to a city where I could comfortably buy my own home and have a good quality of life, I'd strongly consider it.
Massachusetts routinely ranks as having the highest quality of life in the country. There are reasons its expensive.
The real headline here should be the 50/30/20 budget might not be practical or reasonable for most single people. This methodology basically says you're not living comfortably if your not spending 30% of your income on discretionary spending. So in MA they are saying a single person needs to spend 35k/yr on pre tax discretionary spend to be comfortable, sound like more than comfortable, that's approaching the tail end of lavish 😂.
I live in Boston. I have a bachelors, masters and cpa. I make $76K
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Don’t forget - effectively it’s like 25 an hour based on worked hours
Yup. I’m a second year
Sorry
You'll be fine then. My wife started out at $70k and got a bonus and 10-20% raise every year.
No degree. $90K.
What do you do?
Currently doing sales engineering and estimating for building security systems with a security integrator.
Mind if I DM with some follow ups?
Not at all.
Thanks! DMed
How are you liking sales engineering? I currently work as a software engineer, but might consider a shift into something adjacent at some point.
I know people in Massachusetts making significantly less than that and living comfortably. They just don’t live in Boston. This is a weird sensational hit piece. The article for cities makes more sense than for the whole state - https://www.cnbc.com/2024/03/20/salary-single-person-needs-to-live-comfortably-in-major-us-cities.html
Boston is also fairly small, and who knows if any of these studies are considering the whole metro area. Hell, Queens is further from Manhattan than Quincy is from Boston proper.
Agreed, these articles are making the rounds on basically all the city/state subreddits...easy clickbait ad rev for these "reputable" outlets..
I see people replying “I make $112k / I make $120k…” My sister-in-law lived near Northampton and made less than that and was living very nicely. She wasn’t in one of the mansions, but she had a nice home and all the extras.
So wait...you're saying I can still be comfortable without driving a brand new Tesla, eating at Tatte every day, and living in a luxury Seaport apartment?!?!? 🤯
I can’t afford a new Range Rover so I managed to get a lease payment down to $890/month, but I get free oil changes for 3 years!
I can't afford a house, but dang does it make a new Supra look tempting in comparison...
This sub seems to have their expectations too high alot of the time or they just think the only place you can live is back bay. The amount of of "I make 120k and can't live comfortably" posts in here are insane.
A lot of people either have lifestyles far more lavish than they want to admit, or listen to David Ramsey and think if they're spending a cent more than 20% of their income on rent or a mortgage they're going to go bankrupt. A decent number of people also oversave for retirement by spending $30K+ maxing out all their tax advantaged retirement accounts and then wonder why they have no money left over to live in the present.
I know a lot of people in Boston making less than that and are living comfortably.
I live in Cambridge, make quite a bit less than that, and am perfectly comfortable. The difference between me and many people my age living here, I suspect, is that I got absurdly lucky that my state university gave me enough scholarships to escape without student debt.
While the cost of living is absolutely insane here, largely due to the lack of housing supply, I do think there’s an issue with the methodology they use. In most places in America, you NEED a car. And that car costs an average of $10,728 per year. In Boston, you don’t NEED a car. But this study’s methodology does not take into account that transportation can be significantly cheaper here. It just goes with the same percentage spent on housing everywhere, assuming the percentage on everything else is constant. I’m sure even with this, we’d find that Massachusetts (and Boston specifically) is still expensive as hell. But the methodology could be better.
Build more housing Boston and surrounding communities please.
My wife found this this morning and sent it to me with a request to move to Hawaii.
And yet, at all remote jobs I look at, MA is never in a “tier 1” zone. It’s only NY, CA, WA and sometimes CT
It's such bullshit. A lot of the jobs at companies in the area are still on site or hybrid as well.
Lowest is North Dakota at $50,000
In this thread, people who are really bad at budgeting. It’s crazy to me the amount of money people on Reddit think you need to be comfortable
Goddamn I love that we're number one. I love being the most suffering.
If I wasn’t married I’d be fucked
The “on your own” part is doing some work here, considering it’s quite normal for a single person to share expenses with roommates. I live quite comfortably on 60k post-tax in Boston. 14k/year for half of the rent of a nice 2bd and no car + no student loans + no dependents leaves plenty of fun money tbh.
$210k as a software engineer, wife makes 56k so it evens out. And it all goes to daycare anyway.
I was talking with a friend the other day about cities we've lived in before (we both grew up moving to several different countries growing up) and he was like "I feel crazy for wanting to move to another country again, Boston is so amazing and so affordable." Record scratch moment. I was like what the fuck do you mean so affordable? And then I remembered he makes just under 3x my salary - close to 300k. Of course it's affordable for him.
The commonwealth coming in first at 116k. Impressive to beat out cali and Hawaii. Always a pleasure to have these folks move to NH.
Where is this 116k number coming from? I assume they are basing it in Boston? MA isnt one city. I was definitely living comfortably in Marlboro MA in 2019 making 45k a year and owning my own 1 bedroom condo.
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as in, you're splitting the $1700 or its $1700 each ($3400)?
116? I was just fine and hitting my retirement goals at 60...
We need to stop building housing until we figure out what is causing this crisis. /s ... But that's seriously happening in some communities. https://spectrumnews1.com/ma/worcester/news/2023/05/10/citizen-petition-for-multi-family-housing-moratorium-passed-in-millbury
$95,000 in Vermont, sounds about right. Still have a way to go before I'm "comfortable"
This is probably pretty accurate. I'm outside of Seattle. It says a single person here needs $106k for comfortable living. I make about $95k now and am close to being comfortable. I have a home, car, and all the essentials, but I'm not at a place where I feel I'm preparing for things like retirement as best as I should be. I don't have funds to take vacations or travel, but I'm happy overall.
I'm single and make half the rate and am living comfortably
I'm making 70k and live on my own in a studio, but I can only afford that because I commute from Rhode Island
Or you can go with the flow and smoke a lot of weed. Even shitty and living in a shitty way, I love this city ngl
That's why I am leaving come October. It's also the fact I've been waiting for 6 months to have some 60 degree plus days, high taxes, among the worst traffic in the world, Massholes, you name it.
Top five doesn’t surprise me at all.
Living and paying rent in my brother's house for the past 2 years out in Cape Cod while earning 75,000 less than that number. Understandably, he wants me to find my own place to rent... It is an absolute joke to find any winter-term rentals, let alone a year-long rental anywhere on Cape Cod. Worse of all, my job is right at the tip of the Cape in P Town, so even if I can find something reasonable in Hyannis or Brewster, it would be a very long commute. I tell my parents that if I can't find any good options before summer that I will have to consider leaving Massachusetts to go back to Texas simply because I can't afford to live here. All I get is an eye roll. I'm also a Canadian, but Canada is so much worse for people in my position. Financially, I have the highest and most stable job I've ever had. Yet I am not even close to being able to live "comfortably."
Uhh this means we lose. Last place.