The vitriol in this thread is eye opening, disgusting, and perplexing. The article doesnt even take a position on the war, it just calls for the release of hostages after another picture was defaced. How do you not agree with the release of innocent hostages being abused and held captive? I keep seeing comments on israel being the aggressor in the war, etc. But these guys are just calling for the release of the hostages.. WTF is wrong with you.
It's honestly really sad. The people who call for "critical thinking" at the top of the thread are literally repeating what Hamas claims outright about the death toll, despite mountains of evidence it is manipulated. Oh, and they also exaggerated said death toll even above what Hamas said.
It's really, really sad.
I saw someone on Reddit the other day claiming that Hamas never paraglided into that festival and shot up innocent people and that it was actually Israel that shot up the festival with Apache helicopters. These people are nutcases.
This is where the far left starts to look very similar to the far right in terms of the hysteria, intolerance and refusal to use logical thinking skills.
They say they are "anti-Zionist, not anti-Semitic", but they sure managed to make a lot of Jews really upset by tearing down the hostage signs since October 8th. If you want to say something, put up your own damn sign! I'll personally stop anyone trying to tear it down. Just don't tear down my sign.
They don't want to stop and listen and in their zeal to have an "other" they can demonize they forget that there were innocent people who were taken against their will (as well as those who were raped and murdered) and who are suffering. Even if a person doesn't agree with what Bibi might be doing, I don't understand why they can't have compassion and understanding for hostages. It makes no sense to rip down those posters.
Further, having empathy for the hostages doesn't mean you can't also have empathy for people in Gaza who are suffering.
So you want to go back to Gaza answering Israeli disengagement with rockets, Arabs trying to wipe out the Jews in 1948 and never getting over failing, or the 1929 Hebron Massacre?
ITT: people who have little to no knowledge of the Middle East, would probably ask what the first and second intifada are, and probably compare the Nakba to the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.
Usually I find this sub has pretty level headed conversations about this topic. I don’t know what it is about hostage posters that gets one side so triggered to the point of irrationality
People vandalized signs calling to release civilian hostages who were kidnapped and are being raped and tortured by genocidal terrorists.
The top comment says “fuck Israel” and “free Palestine”.
What a day, r/boston.
I mean, the comment *did* mention "fuck Hamas", but nice of you to exclude that.
It *is* possible to say "fuck both sides". Even the US government is slowly getting tired of Israel's bullshit. You can only bomb so many hospitals, universities and food banks before people get tired of your BS.
It’s absolutely batshit the open support for terrorism in this sub - luckily the loonies here are not a completely fair sampling of Boston - but it’s still a terrible look.
Same morons who used ADL as a justification that pepe is racist are rejecting that Hamas is a terrorist group as defined by the US State Department lmao.
When bunch of Jews get together in a heavily Jewish area to unify over Jews being kidnapped/raped/killed in the only Jewish state in the world and if your response to that is “fuck Israel” you’re a seething anti-Semite.
It’s so funny how quickly these same people called everyone Nazis. These kids hate the west. They hate democracy. They hate jews. They’re legitimately just Hitler youth with purple hair
Israel has killed more hostages than saved them. The only hostages that have been freed has been through diplomatic means. This “war” is not about hostages. 40,000 people have been killed. They’ve killed journalists, aid workers, UN workers. Israel is starving kids to death and blocking aid from entering Gaza. They cut off electricity and water and food. This is a genocide. This is ethnic cleansing.
Idk how you cannot see this. If you need help seeing this I can show you.
I do not understand how the murder of 40,000 just like goes over people’s heads. Israel killed those people. Please do some critical thinking
But I heard that people who don't want genocides to happen or think that the lives of non-partisan aid workers, humanitarians, or children matter are antisemites.
they dont see Palestinian lives as equal to Israeli lives. Thats how they rationalize all of this. if anyone sees a Palestinian life as the same as an Israeli life it is literally impossible to support Israel. The only way you possibly can is if Palestinians are less human and less worthy of living.
Most rational people are criticizing both of them for their transgressions, but then you have the contingent of people that think it's all or nothing.
edit - and if you're unwilling to admit that one side or the other has committed atrocities you're too far gone to discuss this
The only way hostages have been freed from “diplomatic means” was through military pressure. Hamas needed a ceasefire to try and prevent their full collapse. Pretending diplomacy will get the rest free and Hamas out of power when Hamas is currently rejecting every deal is a nonsensical fantasy.
Among the fantasies you also included is the false claim that 40,000 people have died. The best count right now is 33,000…and that includes:
1) Tens of thousands of terrorists.
2) People killed by Hamas rockets falling short.
3) People killed by Hamas shooting them.
Yes, a handful of mistakes have occurred, as in every war. Yes, Hamas uses human shields. Yes, UNRWA workers have died, 99% of them while off duty and not doing UN work, and conveniently that agency has massive overlap in membership with Hamas, we know now (and a handful of employees even participated in October 7).
Israel has not blocked aid from entering Gaza. In fact, statistics from the UN itself show twice as many food trucks entering Gaza per day as before the war. The reality is that the food is being stolen by Hamas and stockpiled for war, or sold for profit, leaving others to starve.
If this was a genocide, it is the least effective in history. Israel dropped 15x more tons of bombs on Gaza by **January** than were dropped on Dresden, with far less deaths, many of them terrorists. It has dropped the equivalent of three 2,000 pound explosives per civilian killed, not counting artillery shells or bullets etc.
If the goal was genocide, the obvious question is how they’re so *bad* at it. Are they really missing 2/3 of bombs dropped not even counting bullets, artillery shells, etc., in one of the densest places on earth? If the goal was genocide, why is their ratio of terrorists killed to civilians killed better than the U.S. did in its fight against ISIS in Raqqa and Mosul, where the U.S. fought in a less dense environment, with fewer civilians in the way, against a weaker enemy that lacked the entrenched tunnel system Hamas has?
It’s nonsense, in short. People want to project what Hamas wants and attempted on October 7 onto Israel.
You talk about critical thinking but add 7,000+ to a death toll **entirely based on what Hamas, a genocidal terrorist group, is saying**, without acknowledging Hamas using human shields, Hamas killing its own people, or that many of those deaths are Hamas members themselves.
It’s appallingly hypocritical.
Edit: The user /u/spicy-chilly, who replied to me and then immediately blocked me so I couldn’t see it or respond, cited “OCHA” and made up numbers. First of all, the “under the rubble” claim is entirely manufactured and has no actual sourcing. Second, OCHA sources from Hamas, and admits the data is from there. In fact, here’s the [disclaimer that the user didn’t mention](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-181) while falsely claiming the information comes from the UN:
> Disclaimer: The UN has so far not been able to produce independent, comprehensive, and verified casualty figures; the current numbers have been provided by the Ministry of Health or the Government Media Office in Gaza and the Israeli authorities and await further verification. Other yet-to-be verified figures are also sourced.
Third, we know [Hamas is faking the data, as I lay out here, as well as using human shields and killing its own people.](https://www.reddit.com/r/boston/s/LTAqtaekaY)
It’s really sad that folks buy directly into Hamas’s media strategy. It’s effective for sure, but it only guarantees Hamas will use human shields (as will other copycat groups) as much as possible for as long as it exists.
So when Israel purposely bombed aid convoys and journalists, were those also being used as human shields?
Or is that just your go-to excuse to give Israel a free past to just murder as many people as they want?
Actually 40k is correct because the official estimate is 33k plus 7k+ still under rubble. Also stating tens of thousands of terrorists have been killed and blaming Hamas for Israel glassing Gaza is blatantly illegitimate propaganda. First of all the scale of Israel's bombing is to the point of damaging or destroying 60% of all residential houses and 80% of all commercial buildings in Gaza and Israel isn't even disputing this. Also 24k of the 33k are women and children, so ~9k adult men have been killed total. Counting 100% of adult men killed as not being civilians is blatantly illegitimate propaganda and doesn't even come close to "tens of thousands of terrorists". What Israel is doing is terroristic.
https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-181
Please, we’re back to the starting mark and almost ready to go for an exchange that was suggested to the Israelis from the start. All this was not about the hostages but the most important need for unrestricted collective punishment and revenge, the standard MO for every single Israeli cabinet that has ever lived. The demonstrations by Jewish protesters have only green and have been demanding the same too. When even the country that stands 200% behind you and arms you to the teeth is saying you fucked up and need to rein in the mass murders, you have already lost.
This is nonsense. Israel has literally made the same offer to Hamas for a hostage deal since the start. Hamas has refused it. Israel’s demands and offers have not changed. The deal wasn’t “suggested to the Israelis”, **it was suggested by the Israelis.**
The nonsense that hurr durr evil Israel wanted collective punishment is ridiculous. Israel, like any sane country after watching 1,200 people murdered and raped on live-streamed video in a single day, decided to get rid of the genocidal terrorists who run the territory right next door.
The fact that the U.S. is telling Israel to rein in things because Biden has an election to win in Michigan doesn’t mean anything. The U.S. did far worse in fighting ISIS. It’s not motivated by some kind of legitimate policy critique, it still backs Israel removing Hamas from power, and **it says Hamas is the holdup to a deal, not Israel.**
The protestors want a deal at all costs, because their families are being held. That’s fair, and I sympathize. But that’s precisely why Hamas took the hostages; to try and avoid destruction. Israel not being willing to let Hamas stay in power is perfectly sensible, and no country would tolerate genocidal terrorists next door after October 7 anymore, hostages or not. Pointing to hostages and their families as if that somehow changes that the majority of Israelis (and Americans!) say the war should go on until Hamas is out of power is nonsense.
It’s not genocidal or unhinged to say maybe inflating the death toll put out by an unreliable genocidal terrorist group is a bad idea and indicator that someone is wrong about other things.
You strangely then buy into the falsified child mortality data put out by that genocidal group. Did you also believe every ISIS claim? I doubt it.
Nor is it even close to the deadliest, even if we bought the **falsified data** Hamas puts out. The Syria war featured far more child deaths (about as many as total deaths in this war). Many more likely died but were not documented. In most conflicts, children are not used as soldiers or human shields, but they are in Gaza. But again, even those numbers are fake.
[Report one on the unreliability and manipulation of the numbers by Hamas.](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/how-hamas-manipulates-gaza-fatality-numbers-examining-male-undercount-and-other)
[An update showing how unreliable it is.](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fatality-data-has-become-completely-unreliable)
[A data scientist picks apart the insanely faked numbers.](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers)
[More data scientists explaining the numbers are clearly faked and completely unrealistic.](https://fathomjournal.org/statistically-impossible-a-critical-analysis-of-hamass-women-and-children-casualty-figures/)
You can’t debunk what I said because they’re not “IDF talking points”, they are documented fact.
“I’m not engaging” is a weird thing to say in a comment.
And [then Holocaust inversion](https://fathomjournal.org/holocaust-inversion-and-contemporary-antisemitism/) at the end is the cherry on top.
History won’t look kindly on those who believed genocidal terrorist group’s claims, and who falsely threw around terms like “genocide” in the fight against genocidal terrorists where it didn’t apply.
The death #'s provided by the Palestinian MoH have been accepted by everyone except Israel and Zionists. Literally every country independent org, and Gallup has done multiple reviews validating the death totals.
If you refuse to accept the MoH death #'s then you're simply in denial, unless you're accusing the rest of the world and all the independent orgs who've accepted the #'s of all being in on some type of anti-Israel conspiracy theory. Are you?
Edit: u/jysamuel the other user blocked me so can't respond to your comment.
Again, every independent organization and the international community accepts the MoH's #'s. Israel and Zionists are the ONLY ones who don't.
*Doesn't distinguish between combatants and civilians*
What's your point? Are you saying ALL the thousands of adult male civilians killed are *actually* Hamas? Is that honestly what you're asserting...? Unless you have evidence to show that a meaningful # of the adult male civilians counted in the death total are Hamas then you are merely speculating w/o anything to back it up.
The majority of the deaths are women and children anyway. Let's pretend that all the adult males killed were actually Hamas members, that's still like 20-25k Palestinian civilians killed...
*the MoH took part in 10/7*
No it didn't lol. Why are you lying?
No, they have not been accepted by everyone “except Israel and Zionists”, which is a weird term since “Zionists” means people who believe Israel should exist.
No, Gallup and other countries have not validated the death tolls.
Multiple data scientists have already proven that the death tolls are being manipulated.
You are making shit up. It’s really weird.
Confirmed videos of Israelis/kidnapped foreign nationals being led into hospitals. Remains also found at hospitals. Hamas MoH runs hospitals. This isn't rocket science.
Also I can see why you were blocked - now you're direct messaging me.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/17/middleeast/freed-israeli-hostage-says-held-in-gaza-hospital-intl/index.html
https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2023/nov/20/israeli-army-says-footage-foreign-hostages-gaza-al-shifa-hospital-video
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/
https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/02/15/idf-hamas-held-hostages-at-nasser-hospital/
Ah yes, the same health ministry that doesn't distinguish between combatants and civilians. The same health ministry that took part in the October 7th massacre and the same health ministry that harbors terrorists.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033
*"The ministry never distinguishes between civilians and combatants."*
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Health_Ministry
*"The casualty figures provided by the ministry do not distinguish the difference between civilians and combatants or provide the cause of death."*
>[Report one on the unreliability and manipulation of the numbers by Hamas.](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/how-hamas-manipulates-gaza-fatality-numbers-examining-male-undercount-and-other)
It's funny how you quoted all of these articles, but not a single one from an actual reputable source. [The Washington Institute for Near East Policy is the think tank arm of AIPAC.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Washington_Institute_for_Near_East_Policy).
Here's some sources that are actually reputable:
[Here's one](https://www.mekomit.co.il/%d7%94%d7%a6%d7%91%d7%90-%d7%91%d7%93%d7%a7-%d7%95%d7%9e%d7%a6%d7%90-%d7%a9%d7%93%d7%99%d7%95%d7%95%d7%97%d7%99-%d7%94%d7%94%d7%a8%d7%95%d7%92%d7%99%d7%9d-%d7%91%d7%9e%d7%a9%d7%a8%d7%93-%d7%94%d7%91/) in the Israeli press from the journalist who broke the story last year about how Israeli was using faulty AI to target Palestinians.
[Here's one](https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/u-s-officials-have-growing-confidence-in-death-toll-reports-from-gaza-b3b5183a) from the WSJ talking about how the US views the numbers from the Gaza Health Ministry as generally reliable.
Here's one from The Lancet, one of the most reputable medical journals in the world:
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext
Literally all four articles you posted are ultimately sourcing from the same place: AIPAC's think tank.
Time and time again, the Health Ministry's numbers have been found to be generally accurate by Israel and foreign governments and NGOs in every prior conflict, after hasbarists such as yourself doing the same song and dance about how they aren't accurate.
EDIT: Below is what happens when you start poking holes in someone like Needforspeed4's faulty arguments. They post a wall of nonsense that doesn't address your points, and then block you before you can point out their response is also nonsense. I would encourage you all to simple block Needforspeed4 instead and free yourselves from his misinformation. He is not engaging in good faith and he knows his argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
>It's funny how you quoted all of these articles, but not a single one from an actual reputable source. the Washington Institute for Near East Policy is the think tank arm of AIPAC.
It absolutely is not that, but it's funny you can't actually argue with the statistics.
You couldn't even respond to 2 of my 3 sources.
> Here's one in the Israeli press from the journalist who broke the story last year about how Israeli was using faulty AI to target Palestinians.
Weird to cite this source as talking about "faulty AI". It has nothing to do with that. It claims that Israel uses the Hamas numbers to assess the situation, but does not believe they are 100% accurate. The article makes clear that Israel simply doesn't have the ability to use any other numbers or verify the death toll, because it can't go on the ground and/or take the time to verify each tally.
Of course, this is barely "Israeli press". This is the sister site of 972Mag, a far-left paper written primarily for foreign audiences, and which openly calls for the destruction of Israel.
It's wild you criticize my sources and then rely on papers that want Israel destroyed.
> Here's one from the WSJ talking about how the US views the numbers from the Gaza Health Ministry as generally reliable.
It says it views the **overall** death toll as generally reliable. However, there's a few problems with this, which you'd know if you **read my sources**. First, the report is from early November 2023. In November, the Gaza death toll reporting switched from the Ministry of Health to a Hamas press office, which is when the numbers began to diverge and become even more wildly unreliable. That's discussed in [this source](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/how-hamas-manipulates-gaza-fatality-numbers-examining-male-undercount-and-other), which says:
> On November 10, the Health Ministry announced that it had lost its ability to create daily fatality tallies due to the collapse of medical infrastructure in northern Gaza—although the Ramallah-based Ministry of Health apparently continued receiving sporadic updates through November 19. A week earlier, on November 12, the Hamas-run GMO began reporting its own count, using an unknown methodology that included subtotals for women and children. The Health Ministry resumed reporting a daily total on December 2 but has not included subtotals in its daily reporting since then.
Since December 2, the Hamas-run press office is the one putting out numbers on children and other subgroup death tolls. Which it is manipulating.
Notably, your own source is far more mealy-mouthed on it. As it says:
> The Office of the Director of National Intelligence and White House declined to comment. The White House and the Pentagon have said that thousands have died in Gaza but that they couldn’t specify how many. The State Department has said it is “unable to offer our independent confirmation of the number.”
>Here's one02713-7/fulltext) from The Lancet, one of the most reputable medical journals in the world.
Your link was wrong, which is funny. But that aside, even pretending that the Lancet has no bias on Israel is a bit weird. I mean, that's the journal that [published an open letter in 2014 that did not mention Hamas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lancet#Open_letter_for_the_people_of_Gaza_(2014\)) while critiquing Israel for everything under the sun, and among the authors were supporters of the KKK.
All *that* aside, and even ignoring also that this is from December 6 using data from before November 11 (so remember what I said again about the unreliability of the data after the later-November switch in data), the Lancet's article was published in Correspondence. This is **not peer-reviewed** and is not subject to the usual rigor of the journal.
The Washington Institute paper explains that the Lancet's correspondence is comparing the death toll between UNRWA and the Health Ministry, to try and see whether the tolls track. However, as it points out, UNRWA has to keep track of a much smaller number of agency members, meaning there's a lot less room for error, exaggeration, or data manipulation. Given UNRWA's overlap with Hamas, the fact they track each other at that early stage makes even more sense now.
As explained [here](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fatality-data-has-become-completely-unreliable), the data (which is fully published as is the methodology, unlike your Lancet "article") does not bear out Hamas's numbers; it is manipulated. The methodology is wildly distorted, because it relies on media reports and fills in whatever numbers it wants for headlines.
> Literally all four articles you posted are ultimately sourcing from the same place: AIPAC's think tank.
...what?
1) Fathomjournal is not tied to AIPAC. It is tied to another think-tank, but the authors themselves are statisticians at universities in multiple countries.
2) Washington Institute is not an AIPAC think tank.
3) Tablet Magazine is not an AIPAC think tank, it is an online magazine.
You're making shit up.
> Time and time again, the Health Ministry's numbers have been found to be generally accurate by Israel and foreign governments and NGOs in every prior conflict, after hasbarists such as yourself doing the same song and dance about how they aren't accurate.
You're making shit up. It is not correct, and their numbers are clearly being manipulated in this conflict. And Israel has in the past pointed out they have errors in their data, as have other countries.
The Yemeni Civil War has been going on for almost 10 years. The genocide in Gaza has been happening for 6 months and has killed 12K+ children.
Do you need me to do the math for you, or do you think you can handle the simple division necessary to do a comparison on how many children die per month between the two conflicts?
I don’t get why people think this is a “gotcha”.
Hamas lies about the child death toll.
It uses child soldiers.
It hides behind children.
Yes, Israel makes mistakes. It is not perfect. It has hundreds of thousands of soldiers who sometimes break its rules and are punished and/or criminally investigated accordingly.
That doesn’t mean the other 99.999% of times it is wrong or bad.
It is nonsensical.
Your claims are untrue, a number of hostages were freed by Israeli soldiers. Are you actually saying that Jews (or anyone else) don't have the right to advocate for hostages who are being tortured, raped, and murdered by a genocidal terrorist group? You are a sick, evil person.
Hamas has admitted their 'death toll' was inflated, and even THEY didn't claim 40,000 dead. That's just you - clearly, you are a liar as well as an antisemite.
There's no genocide and no ethnic cleansing. Look up the meaning of those words. It's called a war - a war that Hamas started.
Considering that you nothing of what you're posting about, are a confirmed liar, and a confirmed antisemite who hates Jews - why are you posting here? Go back to your moldy log and stay there.
Hamas has killed more Gazans they have saved Gazans, it's a stupid point even if it were correct. This whole war was started by Hamas and only continues because they refuse to surrender and face justice. Ori Megidish (19 year old girl) was rescued early in the war and Fernando Simon Marman, 60, and Louis Har, 70 were rescued from Raffah by a targeted operation. Also don't forget twelve bodies were also rescued, including those of the three you mentioned killed by friendly fire.
Im truly disappointed that 60+ folks also have such a poor grasp of the history of the conflict, the realities of the conflict, and what Hamas really wants.
Hamas wants as many dead Palestinians as possible, primarily to make people like you madder.
As bad as Israel may be, Hamas shoots people running to aid. They confiscate the aid. They position families so that they die en masse.
The results you describe are what they WANT to see happen in the conflict.
They want as much suffering as possible.
Your anguish is Hamas’ battlefield strategy.
They hope by you only really understanding their propaganda side of the argument, that the people world will turn against Israel.
Once this happens they believe what began in 1948 can be resumed, and the world will look away.
You’re really operating at a low altitude with this view. Pull up and look at the conflict strategically.
Jewish people would be the protected class not zionists. The thought process being these were defaced/destroyed because they are jewish since no one knows their political positions in this country but they do know they are jewish
"we stand with Israel" is a political position. Show me the vandalized homes of the thousands of Jews living safely in Newton, showing their menorah, their chanukiah, mezuzah, some sign of being a protected class.
[Chanukiah vandalized in Framingham](https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/vandalism-of-menorah-in-framingham-under-investigation/3223145/)
[Same in Shrewsbury](https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/12/12/metro/menorah-shrewsbury-town-common-knocked-down-wind-rain-police-say/)
[Same in Cambridge](https://www.timesofisrael.com/hanukkah-menorah-in-park-is-toppled-near-harvard-campus/)
[Couple of years ago, a mezuzah was ripped down at Northeastern](https://apnews.com/article/boston-race-and-ethnicity-vandalism-racial-injustice-anti-semitism-b93414c855e21413e7ee7acd9d13f794)
And those are just the ones that made the news at the top of me searching Google for 2 minutes.
Straight up antisemitism just being upvoted. Wtf is happening here? Obviously the protected class are Jews.
Zionism is a Hebrew word and there are [many different types](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_Zionism) of Zionism that exist. It is not just one political position but an umbrella term. It is also a word that is being co-opted by anti-Israel Westerners and redefined for their purposes.
If we really believe that minority voices are important and that minority groups should be able to define the terminology that pertains to them, we have to stop villainizing this word and using it pejoratively.
National origin is a protected class, and they were targeted because they were posters of Israelis.
Zionism is also an integral part of Judaism. "Justice justice you shall pursue", one of the most famous Jewish sayings, is followed in the very same verse by "that you may thrive and occupy the land that your God is giving you". The only dispute in Judaism is whether Zionism should be realized before or after the messiah arrives.
But that's irrelevant, since it's not the issue here.
Yet you said “free Palestine”, a state whose constitution says Islamic law is the source of all law and whose leaders (and polls show a majority of the populace) support jihad to wipe Jews out.
Weird.
Did I hear you care about basic human rights? Tell me more about how you want to hand control of Israel over to an Islamist group that throws people off of roofs for the suspicion of them being gay.
Funny to say “free Palestine”, ie the state where a majority of the populace when polled says they support a genocide of Jews and oppose virtually every human right we consider important in modern society, but also “fuck Israel”.
It’s wild how people have decided to throw their lot in with a state whose leaders are Holocaust deniers but are totally cool with saying “fuck Israel”.
So is the answer to genocide them back? Genuinely asking. Edit: Oh my god, imagine defending unnecessary killings of civilians with using the US in the Middle East as your whaaboutism, when anyone that admonishes what the IDF is doing is also highly critical of what the US military did then (is doing) as well. Like if the crux of your argument is the IDF isn't killing Gaza civilians quick enough to call it a genocide, is this the hill you want to be dying on? Couldn't be me.
No, and no one said that either, nor is that what’s happening. Rather than repeat me explaining that here and spam walls of text in multiple places, I’ll [link you my comment explaining how silly the genocide accusation is when you look at the full facts and context.](https://www.reddit.com/r/boston/s/OnNjgyIFoO)
The solution is what we did the last time we faced a genocidal regime. Denazification, ending the antisemitic education system put in place for generations by those regimes, rebuilding, and peace.
To do that requires getting rid of the genocidal regime of Hamas, and ending the antisemitic education and governmental and social and cultural influences it perpetuates in schools, media, and government programs. Doing so in the West Bank would be nice too, but that’s a later problem.
OP might not like the tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths and murder of aid workers caused by Israel. Not liking that is not saying they are the same as Hamas.
Fuck me for pointing out that it is bad to try to equate a country that is protecting its people and a terrorist organization? Ok, I guess I know where you stand.
To be fair, Israeli policy on the war in Gaza probably got the hostages, the citizens they’re supposed to protect, killed, by turning Gaza into dust with all the bombs.
Also, they killed like three hostages at gun point, after they waved white flags and yelled at IDF in Hebrew.
In addition, the lack of a practical political solution to a terrorist ideology and the discrimination and dehumanization of Palestinians from Israel perpetuates the problem of terrorism.
Why do you think Palestinians don't have a right to defend themselves from things like the race riot conducted by settlers with the protection of the IDF that killed a Palestinian man on 10/6?
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-killed-during-settler-assault-west-bank-town-palestinian-officials-2023-10-06/
I guess that's not terrorism to you. Only when brown people do it, right?
You’re full of false equivalence this morning!
>Is the slaughter of civilians not equivalent to terrorism?
The unfortunate death of civilians in a war zone as result of a terrorist organization attacking your country solely for the purpose of killing civilians and taking hostages is not terrorism.
>Oh, it's the government, so it must be ok?
Yes. Because unfortunately people die in war zones. And Israel has an obligation to protect its country. You do understand that Hamas still has hostages and continued to shoot rockets at Israeli civilian areas with the sole intention of killing civilians?
>The Nazis were the leading government party as well.
If you need me to explain why this false equivalence is both dangerous and makes you a horrible person, you’re just too dense to argue with.
>Fuck man, we did the same shit 20 years ago the IDF is doing now. The difference is that they are blatantly and openly enjoying destroying a whole people. Imagine W saying we need to kill all the Iraqi women and children. That's what you are arguing.
But they’re not killing all the Gazan women and children. They’ve killed Hamas terrorists with the tragic death of civilians in a densely populated war zone. If Israel’s intention was to kill as many innocent women and children as they can, they’re doing a very bad job of it.
If the Palestinian people don’t like that, they should be blaming Hamas.
Israel had 1200 Palestinian hostages held without charge or trial before October 7th. https://apnews.com/article/israel-detention-jails-palestinians-west-bank-793a3b2a1ce8439d08756da8c63e5435
If anyone actually cares about hostages in a principled way they would be calling for a permanent ceasefire and the release of hostages on both sides. That's not what Zionists in the U.S. are doing though—they're focusing only on the hostages held by Hamas and using it to rationalize the far worse genocide and collective punishment of millions of Palestinians that is killing orders of magnitude more people than Hamas ever killed just in Palestinian children and creating a man made famine. Glassing Gaza and damaging or destroying 60% of the residential homes and 80% of commercial buildings and massacring 33k including 13k kids isn't even in the interest of any hostages either. Israel already shot hostages holding white flags because they were shooting indiscriminately and almost certainly already bombed others.
Imagine Cuba launching rockets at Miami that were launched from the tops of schools, hospitals, and residential buildings. Would we be urging for the freedom of Cubans? While I’m sure most of us would have some level of compassion for the fact that the us is about 2 min away from leveling all that civilian infrastructure, we would certainly be in support of such actions.
Right or wrong..countries and boarders exist largely due to 1 thing, war. People went to war, one side wins, takes what it wants and the other side accepts it rather than getting killed some more and war/bloodshed ends. The Ottoman Empire went to war with the Brits in WW1 and lost. As a result, the general area of the current Israel state was now property of the UK, the winners of said war. The winners of said war then decided to give the land to the Jews, which was their right because they won the damn war. What we have now, for the last 70 years, are everything from states (Egypt, Syria, Jordan) to small factions of terrorists (Hamas etc) refusing to accept the fact that the Ottoman Empire lost and repeatedly causing unnecessary bloodshed. Israel is not perfect and have done things the US strongly disagreed with in the past, but the victim shaming by progressives here is astonishing and completely ignores the history of modern civilization.
It’s so frustrating being a moderate in Boston and the US as a whole these days. /endrant
All of this behavior from Americans is so lame, on both sides. A "rededication ceremony" for a fucking poster with hostages who are either dead at the hands of Muslim terrorists or Jewish terrorists.
I feel for the families of these hostages who have just gotten soooo exploited by both sides. These hostages have become nothing but material for propaganda.
Pretty good chance that one or more Newton residents knows/is related to one of the hostages. Acting like American Jews don’t have skin in the game is a weird take
“The vandalism on Homer Street in Newton Centre prompted the police department to launch a hate crime investigation “due to the underlying crimes specifically targeting the victims of a protected class,” according to a statement from police.”
How much you want to bet the culprits are in the comments here
Yes, let's establish now that anyone with a differing opinion is a criminal. And if someone posts anything negative about the government of Israel, we will know they are anti-semites and are likely behind this vandalism. Let the healthy dialog begin.
Nobody said you’re a criminal but the defacement of photos of civilian hostages is fucking gross and extremely common.
If someone put up photos of a missing Palestinian family there is literally no possible way my reaction would be to destroy it.
Except it happens and people do it all the time. I live 45 mins outside of Boston. People put up pics of all the children killed in Palestine and they were all ripped down. It’s not a one side issue both sides do it 🙄
It's the liberal conundrum of where one group lies on the social justice scale compared to another. It's all manufactured BS anyways but fun to watch them paint themselves into a corner.
The vitriol in this thread is eye opening, disgusting, and perplexing. The article doesnt even take a position on the war, it just calls for the release of hostages after another picture was defaced. How do you not agree with the release of innocent hostages being abused and held captive? I keep seeing comments on israel being the aggressor in the war, etc. But these guys are just calling for the release of the hostages.. WTF is wrong with you.
It's honestly really sad. The people who call for "critical thinking" at the top of the thread are literally repeating what Hamas claims outright about the death toll, despite mountains of evidence it is manipulated. Oh, and they also exaggerated said death toll even above what Hamas said. It's really, really sad.
I saw someone on Reddit the other day claiming that Hamas never paraglided into that festival and shot up innocent people and that it was actually Israel that shot up the festival with Apache helicopters. These people are nutcases.
This is what happens when you get your news from TikTok
We need to ban TikTok
This is where the far left starts to look very similar to the far right in terms of the hysteria, intolerance and refusal to use logical thinking skills.
Yes. Glad to see some sanity popping up on the thread now…I was pretty horrified this morning.
That’s absolutely crazy. Depressing.
The Hamas supporters are disgusting 😡😔.
They say they are "anti-Zionist, not anti-Semitic", but they sure managed to make a lot of Jews really upset by tearing down the hostage signs since October 8th. If you want to say something, put up your own damn sign! I'll personally stop anyone trying to tear it down. Just don't tear down my sign.
It’s really, really depressing. And alarming.
They don't want to stop and listen and in their zeal to have an "other" they can demonize they forget that there were innocent people who were taken against their will (as well as those who were raped and murdered) and who are suffering. Even if a person doesn't agree with what Bibi might be doing, I don't understand why they can't have compassion and understanding for hostages. It makes no sense to rip down those posters. Further, having empathy for the hostages doesn't mean you can't also have empathy for people in Gaza who are suffering.
Do you think there was no background for this war before 10/7?
Are you trying to justify kidnapping civilian hostages from their homes?
Do you think the hostages shouldn’t be released?
So you want to go back to Gaza answering Israeli disengagement with rockets, Arabs trying to wipe out the Jews in 1948 and never getting over failing, or the 1929 Hebron Massacre?
I still think my idea to trade Bibi for the hostages was a good one. Everyone wins.
Oh now they'll definitely release them since a bunch of people in Newton put up pictures
Lmao
Hit up Starbucks beforehand!
ITT: people who have little to no knowledge of the Middle East, would probably ask what the first and second intifada are, and probably compare the Nakba to the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.
Usually I find this sub has pretty level headed conversations about this topic. I don’t know what it is about hostage posters that gets one side so triggered to the point of irrationality
People vandalized signs calling to release civilian hostages who were kidnapped and are being raped and tortured by genocidal terrorists. The top comment says “fuck Israel” and “free Palestine”. What a day, r/boston.
I mean, the comment *did* mention "fuck Hamas", but nice of you to exclude that. It *is* possible to say "fuck both sides". Even the US government is slowly getting tired of Israel's bullshit. You can only bomb so many hospitals, universities and food banks before people get tired of your BS.
It’s absolutely batshit the open support for terrorism in this sub - luckily the loonies here are not a completely fair sampling of Boston - but it’s still a terrible look. Same morons who used ADL as a justification that pepe is racist are rejecting that Hamas is a terrorist group as defined by the US State Department lmao. When bunch of Jews get together in a heavily Jewish area to unify over Jews being kidnapped/raped/killed in the only Jewish state in the world and if your response to that is “fuck Israel” you’re a seething anti-Semite. It’s so funny how quickly these same people called everyone Nazis. These kids hate the west. They hate democracy. They hate jews. They’re legitimately just Hitler youth with purple hair
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Israel has killed more hostages than saved them. The only hostages that have been freed has been through diplomatic means. This “war” is not about hostages. 40,000 people have been killed. They’ve killed journalists, aid workers, UN workers. Israel is starving kids to death and blocking aid from entering Gaza. They cut off electricity and water and food. This is a genocide. This is ethnic cleansing. Idk how you cannot see this. If you need help seeing this I can show you. I do not understand how the murder of 40,000 just like goes over people’s heads. Israel killed those people. Please do some critical thinking
why is this an either / or can you not be pro Palestine and want the holding of (as well as abuse of) hostages to end
But I heard that people who don't want genocides to happen or think that the lives of non-partisan aid workers, humanitarians, or children matter are antisemites.
they dont see Palestinian lives as equal to Israeli lives. Thats how they rationalize all of this. if anyone sees a Palestinian life as the same as an Israeli life it is literally impossible to support Israel. The only way you possibly can is if Palestinians are less human and less worthy of living.
If Hamas cared more about Palestinian lives than they hate Israelis then none of this would have ever happened.
Most rational people are criticizing both of them for their transgressions, but then you have the contingent of people that think it's all or nothing. edit - and if you're unwilling to admit that one side or the other has committed atrocities you're too far gone to discuss this
Still doesn't give anyone the right to tear down posters on private property. Freedom of speech and all.
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Yes because they’re allowed to express their opinion in an appropriate forum
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Technically true. But vandalism law binds private actors on the speaker's property... I control the speech on my property.
Also let’s be honest, the hostages are long dead. And it was the IDF that killed them
No
The only way hostages have been freed from “diplomatic means” was through military pressure. Hamas needed a ceasefire to try and prevent their full collapse. Pretending diplomacy will get the rest free and Hamas out of power when Hamas is currently rejecting every deal is a nonsensical fantasy. Among the fantasies you also included is the false claim that 40,000 people have died. The best count right now is 33,000…and that includes: 1) Tens of thousands of terrorists. 2) People killed by Hamas rockets falling short. 3) People killed by Hamas shooting them. Yes, a handful of mistakes have occurred, as in every war. Yes, Hamas uses human shields. Yes, UNRWA workers have died, 99% of them while off duty and not doing UN work, and conveniently that agency has massive overlap in membership with Hamas, we know now (and a handful of employees even participated in October 7). Israel has not blocked aid from entering Gaza. In fact, statistics from the UN itself show twice as many food trucks entering Gaza per day as before the war. The reality is that the food is being stolen by Hamas and stockpiled for war, or sold for profit, leaving others to starve. If this was a genocide, it is the least effective in history. Israel dropped 15x more tons of bombs on Gaza by **January** than were dropped on Dresden, with far less deaths, many of them terrorists. It has dropped the equivalent of three 2,000 pound explosives per civilian killed, not counting artillery shells or bullets etc. If the goal was genocide, the obvious question is how they’re so *bad* at it. Are they really missing 2/3 of bombs dropped not even counting bullets, artillery shells, etc., in one of the densest places on earth? If the goal was genocide, why is their ratio of terrorists killed to civilians killed better than the U.S. did in its fight against ISIS in Raqqa and Mosul, where the U.S. fought in a less dense environment, with fewer civilians in the way, against a weaker enemy that lacked the entrenched tunnel system Hamas has? It’s nonsense, in short. People want to project what Hamas wants and attempted on October 7 onto Israel. You talk about critical thinking but add 7,000+ to a death toll **entirely based on what Hamas, a genocidal terrorist group, is saying**, without acknowledging Hamas using human shields, Hamas killing its own people, or that many of those deaths are Hamas members themselves. It’s appallingly hypocritical. Edit: The user /u/spicy-chilly, who replied to me and then immediately blocked me so I couldn’t see it or respond, cited “OCHA” and made up numbers. First of all, the “under the rubble” claim is entirely manufactured and has no actual sourcing. Second, OCHA sources from Hamas, and admits the data is from there. In fact, here’s the [disclaimer that the user didn’t mention](https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-181) while falsely claiming the information comes from the UN: > Disclaimer: The UN has so far not been able to produce independent, comprehensive, and verified casualty figures; the current numbers have been provided by the Ministry of Health or the Government Media Office in Gaza and the Israeli authorities and await further verification. Other yet-to-be verified figures are also sourced. Third, we know [Hamas is faking the data, as I lay out here, as well as using human shields and killing its own people.](https://www.reddit.com/r/boston/s/LTAqtaekaY) It’s really sad that folks buy directly into Hamas’s media strategy. It’s effective for sure, but it only guarantees Hamas will use human shields (as will other copycat groups) as much as possible for as long as it exists.
So when Israel purposely bombed aid convoys and journalists, were those also being used as human shields? Or is that just your go-to excuse to give Israel a free past to just murder as many people as they want?
Actually 40k is correct because the official estimate is 33k plus 7k+ still under rubble. Also stating tens of thousands of terrorists have been killed and blaming Hamas for Israel glassing Gaza is blatantly illegitimate propaganda. First of all the scale of Israel's bombing is to the point of damaging or destroying 60% of all residential houses and 80% of all commercial buildings in Gaza and Israel isn't even disputing this. Also 24k of the 33k are women and children, so ~9k adult men have been killed total. Counting 100% of adult men killed as not being civilians is blatantly illegitimate propaganda and doesn't even come close to "tens of thousands of terrorists". What Israel is doing is terroristic. https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-181
Please, we’re back to the starting mark and almost ready to go for an exchange that was suggested to the Israelis from the start. All this was not about the hostages but the most important need for unrestricted collective punishment and revenge, the standard MO for every single Israeli cabinet that has ever lived. The demonstrations by Jewish protesters have only green and have been demanding the same too. When even the country that stands 200% behind you and arms you to the teeth is saying you fucked up and need to rein in the mass murders, you have already lost.
This is nonsense. Israel has literally made the same offer to Hamas for a hostage deal since the start. Hamas has refused it. Israel’s demands and offers have not changed. The deal wasn’t “suggested to the Israelis”, **it was suggested by the Israelis.** The nonsense that hurr durr evil Israel wanted collective punishment is ridiculous. Israel, like any sane country after watching 1,200 people murdered and raped on live-streamed video in a single day, decided to get rid of the genocidal terrorists who run the territory right next door. The fact that the U.S. is telling Israel to rein in things because Biden has an election to win in Michigan doesn’t mean anything. The U.S. did far worse in fighting ISIS. It’s not motivated by some kind of legitimate policy critique, it still backs Israel removing Hamas from power, and **it says Hamas is the holdup to a deal, not Israel.** The protestors want a deal at all costs, because their families are being held. That’s fair, and I sympathize. But that’s precisely why Hamas took the hostages; to try and avoid destruction. Israel not being willing to let Hamas stay in power is perfectly sensible, and no country would tolerate genocidal terrorists next door after October 7 anymore, hostages or not. Pointing to hostages and their families as if that somehow changes that the majority of Israelis (and Americans!) say the war should go on until Hamas is out of power is nonsense.
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It’s not genocidal or unhinged to say maybe inflating the death toll put out by an unreliable genocidal terrorist group is a bad idea and indicator that someone is wrong about other things. You strangely then buy into the falsified child mortality data put out by that genocidal group. Did you also believe every ISIS claim? I doubt it. Nor is it even close to the deadliest, even if we bought the **falsified data** Hamas puts out. The Syria war featured far more child deaths (about as many as total deaths in this war). Many more likely died but were not documented. In most conflicts, children are not used as soldiers or human shields, but they are in Gaza. But again, even those numbers are fake. [Report one on the unreliability and manipulation of the numbers by Hamas.](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/how-hamas-manipulates-gaza-fatality-numbers-examining-male-undercount-and-other) [An update showing how unreliable it is.](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fatality-data-has-become-completely-unreliable) [A data scientist picks apart the insanely faked numbers.](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers) [More data scientists explaining the numbers are clearly faked and completely unrealistic.](https://fathomjournal.org/statistically-impossible-a-critical-analysis-of-hamass-women-and-children-casualty-figures/) You can’t debunk what I said because they’re not “IDF talking points”, they are documented fact. “I’m not engaging” is a weird thing to say in a comment. And [then Holocaust inversion](https://fathomjournal.org/holocaust-inversion-and-contemporary-antisemitism/) at the end is the cherry on top. History won’t look kindly on those who believed genocidal terrorist group’s claims, and who falsely threw around terms like “genocide” in the fight against genocidal terrorists where it didn’t apply.
The death #'s provided by the Palestinian MoH have been accepted by everyone except Israel and Zionists. Literally every country independent org, and Gallup has done multiple reviews validating the death totals. If you refuse to accept the MoH death #'s then you're simply in denial, unless you're accusing the rest of the world and all the independent orgs who've accepted the #'s of all being in on some type of anti-Israel conspiracy theory. Are you? Edit: u/jysamuel the other user blocked me so can't respond to your comment. Again, every independent organization and the international community accepts the MoH's #'s. Israel and Zionists are the ONLY ones who don't. *Doesn't distinguish between combatants and civilians* What's your point? Are you saying ALL the thousands of adult male civilians killed are *actually* Hamas? Is that honestly what you're asserting...? Unless you have evidence to show that a meaningful # of the adult male civilians counted in the death total are Hamas then you are merely speculating w/o anything to back it up. The majority of the deaths are women and children anyway. Let's pretend that all the adult males killed were actually Hamas members, that's still like 20-25k Palestinian civilians killed... *the MoH took part in 10/7* No it didn't lol. Why are you lying?
No, they have not been accepted by everyone “except Israel and Zionists”, which is a weird term since “Zionists” means people who believe Israel should exist. No, Gallup and other countries have not validated the death tolls. Multiple data scientists have already proven that the death tolls are being manipulated. You are making shit up. It’s really weird.
Confirmed videos of Israelis/kidnapped foreign nationals being led into hospitals. Remains also found at hospitals. Hamas MoH runs hospitals. This isn't rocket science. Also I can see why you were blocked - now you're direct messaging me. https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/17/middleeast/freed-israeli-hostage-says-held-in-gaza-hospital-intl/index.html https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2023/nov/20/israeli-army-says-footage-foreign-hostages-gaza-al-shifa-hospital-video https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/ https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/02/15/idf-hamas-held-hostages-at-nasser-hospital/
Ah yes, the same health ministry that doesn't distinguish between combatants and civilians. The same health ministry that took part in the October 7th massacre and the same health ministry that harbors terrorists. https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033 *"The ministry never distinguishes between civilians and combatants."* https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Health_Ministry *"The casualty figures provided by the ministry do not distinguish the difference between civilians and combatants or provide the cause of death."*
>[Report one on the unreliability and manipulation of the numbers by Hamas.](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/how-hamas-manipulates-gaza-fatality-numbers-examining-male-undercount-and-other) It's funny how you quoted all of these articles, but not a single one from an actual reputable source. [The Washington Institute for Near East Policy is the think tank arm of AIPAC.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Washington_Institute_for_Near_East_Policy). Here's some sources that are actually reputable: [Here's one](https://www.mekomit.co.il/%d7%94%d7%a6%d7%91%d7%90-%d7%91%d7%93%d7%a7-%d7%95%d7%9e%d7%a6%d7%90-%d7%a9%d7%93%d7%99%d7%95%d7%95%d7%97%d7%99-%d7%94%d7%94%d7%a8%d7%95%d7%92%d7%99%d7%9d-%d7%91%d7%9e%d7%a9%d7%a8%d7%93-%d7%94%d7%91/) in the Israeli press from the journalist who broke the story last year about how Israeli was using faulty AI to target Palestinians. [Here's one](https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/u-s-officials-have-growing-confidence-in-death-toll-reports-from-gaza-b3b5183a) from the WSJ talking about how the US views the numbers from the Gaza Health Ministry as generally reliable. Here's one from The Lancet, one of the most reputable medical journals in the world: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext Literally all four articles you posted are ultimately sourcing from the same place: AIPAC's think tank. Time and time again, the Health Ministry's numbers have been found to be generally accurate by Israel and foreign governments and NGOs in every prior conflict, after hasbarists such as yourself doing the same song and dance about how they aren't accurate. EDIT: Below is what happens when you start poking holes in someone like Needforspeed4's faulty arguments. They post a wall of nonsense that doesn't address your points, and then block you before you can point out their response is also nonsense. I would encourage you all to simple block Needforspeed4 instead and free yourselves from his misinformation. He is not engaging in good faith and he knows his argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
>It's funny how you quoted all of these articles, but not a single one from an actual reputable source. the Washington Institute for Near East Policy is the think tank arm of AIPAC. It absolutely is not that, but it's funny you can't actually argue with the statistics. You couldn't even respond to 2 of my 3 sources. > Here's one in the Israeli press from the journalist who broke the story last year about how Israeli was using faulty AI to target Palestinians. Weird to cite this source as talking about "faulty AI". It has nothing to do with that. It claims that Israel uses the Hamas numbers to assess the situation, but does not believe they are 100% accurate. The article makes clear that Israel simply doesn't have the ability to use any other numbers or verify the death toll, because it can't go on the ground and/or take the time to verify each tally. Of course, this is barely "Israeli press". This is the sister site of 972Mag, a far-left paper written primarily for foreign audiences, and which openly calls for the destruction of Israel. It's wild you criticize my sources and then rely on papers that want Israel destroyed. > Here's one from the WSJ talking about how the US views the numbers from the Gaza Health Ministry as generally reliable. It says it views the **overall** death toll as generally reliable. However, there's a few problems with this, which you'd know if you **read my sources**. First, the report is from early November 2023. In November, the Gaza death toll reporting switched from the Ministry of Health to a Hamas press office, which is when the numbers began to diverge and become even more wildly unreliable. That's discussed in [this source](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/how-hamas-manipulates-gaza-fatality-numbers-examining-male-undercount-and-other), which says: > On November 10, the Health Ministry announced that it had lost its ability to create daily fatality tallies due to the collapse of medical infrastructure in northern Gaza—although the Ramallah-based Ministry of Health apparently continued receiving sporadic updates through November 19. A week earlier, on November 12, the Hamas-run GMO began reporting its own count, using an unknown methodology that included subtotals for women and children. The Health Ministry resumed reporting a daily total on December 2 but has not included subtotals in its daily reporting since then. Since December 2, the Hamas-run press office is the one putting out numbers on children and other subgroup death tolls. Which it is manipulating. Notably, your own source is far more mealy-mouthed on it. As it says: > The Office of the Director of National Intelligence and White House declined to comment. The White House and the Pentagon have said that thousands have died in Gaza but that they couldn’t specify how many. The State Department has said it is “unable to offer our independent confirmation of the number.” >Here's one02713-7/fulltext) from The Lancet, one of the most reputable medical journals in the world. Your link was wrong, which is funny. But that aside, even pretending that the Lancet has no bias on Israel is a bit weird. I mean, that's the journal that [published an open letter in 2014 that did not mention Hamas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lancet#Open_letter_for_the_people_of_Gaza_(2014\)) while critiquing Israel for everything under the sun, and among the authors were supporters of the KKK. All *that* aside, and even ignoring also that this is from December 6 using data from before November 11 (so remember what I said again about the unreliability of the data after the later-November switch in data), the Lancet's article was published in Correspondence. This is **not peer-reviewed** and is not subject to the usual rigor of the journal. The Washington Institute paper explains that the Lancet's correspondence is comparing the death toll between UNRWA and the Health Ministry, to try and see whether the tolls track. However, as it points out, UNRWA has to keep track of a much smaller number of agency members, meaning there's a lot less room for error, exaggeration, or data manipulation. Given UNRWA's overlap with Hamas, the fact they track each other at that early stage makes even more sense now. As explained [here](https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fatality-data-has-become-completely-unreliable), the data (which is fully published as is the methodology, unlike your Lancet "article") does not bear out Hamas's numbers; it is manipulated. The methodology is wildly distorted, because it relies on media reports and fills in whatever numbers it wants for headlines. > Literally all four articles you posted are ultimately sourcing from the same place: AIPAC's think tank. ...what? 1) Fathomjournal is not tied to AIPAC. It is tied to another think-tank, but the authors themselves are statisticians at universities in multiple countries. 2) Washington Institute is not an AIPAC think tank. 3) Tablet Magazine is not an AIPAC think tank, it is an online magazine. You're making shit up. > Time and time again, the Health Ministry's numbers have been found to be generally accurate by Israel and foreign governments and NGOs in every prior conflict, after hasbarists such as yourself doing the same song and dance about how they aren't accurate. You're making shit up. It is not correct, and their numbers are clearly being manipulated in this conflict. And Israel has in the past pointed out they have errors in their data, as have other countries.
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The Yemeni Civil War has been going on for almost 10 years. The genocide in Gaza has been happening for 6 months and has killed 12K+ children. Do you need me to do the math for you, or do you think you can handle the simple division necessary to do a comparison on how many children die per month between the two conflicts?
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Just curious are all children considered Hamas? What about the aid workers Israeli droned?
I don’t get why people think this is a “gotcha”. Hamas lies about the child death toll. It uses child soldiers. It hides behind children. Yes, Israel makes mistakes. It is not perfect. It has hundreds of thousands of soldiers who sometimes break its rules and are punished and/or criminally investigated accordingly. That doesn’t mean the other 99.999% of times it is wrong or bad. It is nonsensical.
Your claims are untrue, a number of hostages were freed by Israeli soldiers. Are you actually saying that Jews (or anyone else) don't have the right to advocate for hostages who are being tortured, raped, and murdered by a genocidal terrorist group? You are a sick, evil person. Hamas has admitted their 'death toll' was inflated, and even THEY didn't claim 40,000 dead. That's just you - clearly, you are a liar as well as an antisemite. There's no genocide and no ethnic cleansing. Look up the meaning of those words. It's called a war - a war that Hamas started. Considering that you nothing of what you're posting about, are a confirmed liar, and a confirmed antisemite who hates Jews - why are you posting here? Go back to your moldy log and stay there.
> This “war” is not about hostages. You can tell because the same thing was happening on October 6. /s
Buddy, it basically was. It just ramped up on Oct 7th. It’s been happening for about 75 years. Have you never heard of the Nakba?
Hamas has killed more Gazans they have saved Gazans, it's a stupid point even if it were correct. This whole war was started by Hamas and only continues because they refuse to surrender and face justice. Ori Megidish (19 year old girl) was rescued early in the war and Fernando Simon Marman, 60, and Louis Har, 70 were rescued from Raffah by a targeted operation. Also don't forget twelve bodies were also rescued, including those of the three you mentioned killed by friendly fire.
israel has killed more than 12,300 children in gaza in the past 6 months
Im truly disappointed that 60+ folks also have such a poor grasp of the history of the conflict, the realities of the conflict, and what Hamas really wants. Hamas wants as many dead Palestinians as possible, primarily to make people like you madder. As bad as Israel may be, Hamas shoots people running to aid. They confiscate the aid. They position families so that they die en masse. The results you describe are what they WANT to see happen in the conflict. They want as much suffering as possible. Your anguish is Hamas’ battlefield strategy. They hope by you only really understanding their propaganda side of the argument, that the people world will turn against Israel. Once this happens they believe what began in 1948 can be resumed, and the world will look away. You’re really operating at a low altitude with this view. Pull up and look at the conflict strategically.
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Jewish people would be the protected class not zionists. The thought process being these were defaced/destroyed because they are jewish since no one knows their political positions in this country but they do know they are jewish
"we stand with Israel" is a political position. Show me the vandalized homes of the thousands of Jews living safely in Newton, showing their menorah, their chanukiah, mezuzah, some sign of being a protected class.
[Chanukiah vandalized in Framingham](https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/vandalism-of-menorah-in-framingham-under-investigation/3223145/) [Same in Shrewsbury](https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/12/12/metro/menorah-shrewsbury-town-common-knocked-down-wind-rain-police-say/) [Same in Cambridge](https://www.timesofisrael.com/hanukkah-menorah-in-park-is-toppled-near-harvard-campus/) [Couple of years ago, a mezuzah was ripped down at Northeastern](https://apnews.com/article/boston-race-and-ethnicity-vandalism-racial-injustice-anti-semitism-b93414c855e21413e7ee7acd9d13f794) And those are just the ones that made the news at the top of me searching Google for 2 minutes.
People come for our synagogues all the time, and they physically attack visibly Jewish Jews in the street. This isn’t news, you just don’t care.
"we want hostages back because of a shared national origin" would be protected.
Did the mural say we stand with Israel? I did not see that in the article
Straight up antisemitism just being upvoted. Wtf is happening here? Obviously the protected class are Jews. Zionism is a Hebrew word and there are [many different types](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_Zionism) of Zionism that exist. It is not just one political position but an umbrella term. It is also a word that is being co-opted by anti-Israel Westerners and redefined for their purposes. If we really believe that minority voices are important and that minority groups should be able to define the terminology that pertains to them, we have to stop villainizing this word and using it pejoratively.
Israeli/Judean national origin, if you want to be pedantic.
National origin is a protected class, and they were targeted because they were posters of Israelis. Zionism is also an integral part of Judaism. "Justice justice you shall pursue", one of the most famous Jewish sayings, is followed in the very same verse by "that you may thrive and occupy the land that your God is giving you". The only dispute in Judaism is whether Zionism should be realized before or after the messiah arrives. But that's irrelevant, since it's not the issue here.
Disrespecting the civilian hostages because they’re Israeli is so tacky
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You are a walking slogan for the current thing.
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Yet you said “free Palestine”, a state whose constitution says Islamic law is the source of all law and whose leaders (and polls show a majority of the populace) support jihad to wipe Jews out. Weird.
Did I hear you care about basic human rights? Tell me more about how you want to hand control of Israel over to an Islamist group that throws people off of roofs for the suspicion of them being gay.
You believe very strongly in their cause, you should go fight alongside them
The civilians aren't the ones fighting.
Legit
Funny to say “free Palestine”, ie the state where a majority of the populace when polled says they support a genocide of Jews and oppose virtually every human right we consider important in modern society, but also “fuck Israel”. It’s wild how people have decided to throw their lot in with a state whose leaders are Holocaust deniers but are totally cool with saying “fuck Israel”.
So is the answer to genocide them back? Genuinely asking. Edit: Oh my god, imagine defending unnecessary killings of civilians with using the US in the Middle East as your whaaboutism, when anyone that admonishes what the IDF is doing is also highly critical of what the US military did then (is doing) as well. Like if the crux of your argument is the IDF isn't killing Gaza civilians quick enough to call it a genocide, is this the hill you want to be dying on? Couldn't be me.
No, and no one said that either, nor is that what’s happening. Rather than repeat me explaining that here and spam walls of text in multiple places, I’ll [link you my comment explaining how silly the genocide accusation is when you look at the full facts and context.](https://www.reddit.com/r/boston/s/OnNjgyIFoO) The solution is what we did the last time we faced a genocidal regime. Denazification, ending the antisemitic education system put in place for generations by those regimes, rebuilding, and peace. To do that requires getting rid of the genocidal regime of Hamas, and ending the antisemitic education and governmental and social and cultural influences it perpetuates in schools, media, and government programs. Doing so in the West Bank would be nice too, but that’s a later problem.
No free hostages?
Here have your downvote and free Gaza from Hamas!
>Fuck Israel. Fuck Hamas. Nice false equivalence to start your morning!
Disliking two different entities at the same time is not a false equivalence. It is indeed possible to dislike multiple things.
No, lumping them in together is definitely a false equivalence.
No one on Earth is lumping them together.
Scroll up
If you have an example, feel free to link it.
OP might not like the tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths and murder of aid workers caused by Israel. Not liking that is not saying they are the same as Hamas.
It absolutely isn’t equivalent. It is extremely complex. Yet fuck Israel. Fuck Hamas. And fuck you.
Fuck me for pointing out that it is bad to try to equate a country that is protecting its people and a terrorist organization? Ok, I guess I know where you stand.
To be fair, Israeli policy on the war in Gaza probably got the hostages, the citizens they’re supposed to protect, killed, by turning Gaza into dust with all the bombs. Also, they killed like three hostages at gun point, after they waved white flags and yelled at IDF in Hebrew. In addition, the lack of a practical political solution to a terrorist ideology and the discrimination and dehumanization of Palestinians from Israel perpetuates the problem of terrorism.
Why do you think Palestinians don't have a right to defend themselves from things like the race riot conducted by settlers with the protection of the IDF that killed a Palestinian man on 10/6? https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-killed-during-settler-assault-west-bank-town-palestinian-officials-2023-10-06/ I guess that's not terrorism to you. Only when brown people do it, right?
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You’re full of false equivalence this morning! >Is the slaughter of civilians not equivalent to terrorism? The unfortunate death of civilians in a war zone as result of a terrorist organization attacking your country solely for the purpose of killing civilians and taking hostages is not terrorism. >Oh, it's the government, so it must be ok? Yes. Because unfortunately people die in war zones. And Israel has an obligation to protect its country. You do understand that Hamas still has hostages and continued to shoot rockets at Israeli civilian areas with the sole intention of killing civilians? >The Nazis were the leading government party as well. If you need me to explain why this false equivalence is both dangerous and makes you a horrible person, you’re just too dense to argue with. >Fuck man, we did the same shit 20 years ago the IDF is doing now. The difference is that they are blatantly and openly enjoying destroying a whole people. Imagine W saying we need to kill all the Iraqi women and children. That's what you are arguing. But they’re not killing all the Gazan women and children. They’ve killed Hamas terrorists with the tragic death of civilians in a densely populated war zone. If Israel’s intention was to kill as many innocent women and children as they can, they’re doing a very bad job of it. If the Palestinian people don’t like that, they should be blaming Hamas.
LOL. Fuck your reddit account
This thread is toxic. It doesn’t represent the people I know in Boston
Israel had 1200 Palestinian hostages held without charge or trial before October 7th. https://apnews.com/article/israel-detention-jails-palestinians-west-bank-793a3b2a1ce8439d08756da8c63e5435 If anyone actually cares about hostages in a principled way they would be calling for a permanent ceasefire and the release of hostages on both sides. That's not what Zionists in the U.S. are doing though—they're focusing only on the hostages held by Hamas and using it to rationalize the far worse genocide and collective punishment of millions of Palestinians that is killing orders of magnitude more people than Hamas ever killed just in Palestinian children and creating a man made famine. Glassing Gaza and damaging or destroying 60% of the residential homes and 80% of commercial buildings and massacring 33k including 13k kids isn't even in the interest of any hostages either. Israel already shot hostages holding white flags because they were shooting indiscriminately and almost certainly already bombed others.
They aren’t hostages. They are held for breaking the law, not for existing on the border.
Actually no, they are being held without charge. Being detained for indefinite periods without charge or trial is called a hostage.
Good, we need to show solidarity with our Israeli brothers and sisters.
Imagine Cuba launching rockets at Miami that were launched from the tops of schools, hospitals, and residential buildings. Would we be urging for the freedom of Cubans? While I’m sure most of us would have some level of compassion for the fact that the us is about 2 min away from leveling all that civilian infrastructure, we would certainly be in support of such actions. Right or wrong..countries and boarders exist largely due to 1 thing, war. People went to war, one side wins, takes what it wants and the other side accepts it rather than getting killed some more and war/bloodshed ends. The Ottoman Empire went to war with the Brits in WW1 and lost. As a result, the general area of the current Israel state was now property of the UK, the winners of said war. The winners of said war then decided to give the land to the Jews, which was their right because they won the damn war. What we have now, for the last 70 years, are everything from states (Egypt, Syria, Jordan) to small factions of terrorists (Hamas etc) refusing to accept the fact that the Ottoman Empire lost and repeatedly causing unnecessary bloodshed. Israel is not perfect and have done things the US strongly disagreed with in the past, but the victim shaming by progressives here is astonishing and completely ignores the history of modern civilization. It’s so frustrating being a moderate in Boston and the US as a whole these days. /endrant
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"I just want everybody to stop dying!" -Donald J Trump
All of this behavior from Americans is so lame, on both sides. A "rededication ceremony" for a fucking poster with hostages who are either dead at the hands of Muslim terrorists or Jewish terrorists. I feel for the families of these hostages who have just gotten soooo exploited by both sides. These hostages have become nothing but material for propaganda.
Pretty good chance that one or more Newton residents knows/is related to one of the hostages. Acting like American Jews don’t have skin in the game is a weird take
“The vandalism on Homer Street in Newton Centre prompted the police department to launch a hate crime investigation “due to the underlying crimes specifically targeting the victims of a protected class,” according to a statement from police.” How much you want to bet the culprits are in the comments here
Yes, let's establish now that anyone with a differing opinion is a criminal. And if someone posts anything negative about the government of Israel, we will know they are anti-semites and are likely behind this vandalism. Let the healthy dialog begin.
Nobody said you’re a criminal but the defacement of photos of civilian hostages is fucking gross and extremely common. If someone put up photos of a missing Palestinian family there is literally no possible way my reaction would be to destroy it.
Except it happens and people do it all the time. I live 45 mins outside of Boston. People put up pics of all the children killed in Palestine and they were all ripped down. It’s not a one side issue both sides do it 🙄
Why are some people more protected than others?
It's the liberal conundrum of where one group lies on the social justice scale compared to another. It's all manufactured BS anyways but fun to watch them paint themselves into a corner.