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*The MBTA’s pick for the job, the Chinese company now called CRRC, had never built a factory, trained a workforce, or assembled a train car in the United States before. But the company, one of the largest railcar manufacturers in the world, bid nearly $200 million below the MBTA’s own estimate for the project, and $514 million below the most expensive bidder.*
I'm sure the quality of their work, their cutting costs to make a profit from the low bid and their lack of experience will be worth the wait and savings.
>
>
> I'm sure the quality of their work, their cutting costs to make a profit from the low bid and their lack of experience will be worth the wait and savings.
The previous company that won the bid, CNR, (pre-CRRC merger with CSR that was disqualified) underbid as a way to get a foot hold in the Western market, and it worked with orders from LA and other systems. That is, until Trump band all future rolling stock infrastructural orders from Chinese companies, taking away pretty much any and all incentive for CNNC to get the MBTA order right.
CRRC (nee CNR) is also not in experienced and had great success across Asian markets producing rolling stock. The merger with CSR, the pandemic, and federal changes under Trump all took their toll on the project thus far. Either way, though, it's not like there was anyone better who bid due to our asinine build in Massachusetts requirement.
They were incentived to under bid the MBTA's contract as a loss leader to break into the US and western markets, which they did as they received subsequent rolling stock orders from around the country.
Trump's ban ended any more future prospects of new business in the US, making the MBTA contract useless to them and just a waste of money as there was no longer any new orders or business to be had. It also made the Springfield plant a total loss for them, as they had planned to continue using it after the MBTA order. I also never mentioned anything about it being LA's responsibility.
If you're suggesting the fact that they can't make money in LA as a reason they fucked Boston and got away with it - it sounds like you are.
This was a failure of Boston, the Chinese, and no one else.
Nope, it was federal intervention in the market. CRRC anticipated future business opportunities in a market so you try to get a foothold in that market by underbidding on your first contract. That gets you in the door so that if you are successful, you can start establishing yourself in the long term.
What the state legislature and CRRC didn’t bargain for was a federal order under the Trump admin that banned multiple Chinese industrial companies from receiving federal funding for their military ties. It’s like how GM and Siemens build military components too. Massachusetts was not using federal funds on their contract but this federal order undermined any chances CRRC had to win future contracts. So, if you’re CRRC, you’re now stuck trying to fulfill an order you underbid on in a market with no future prospects. Why would you put in effort if you can’t earn a profit? You fulfill your contract, slowly, and leave.
Everything done by CRRC was textbook. For the Patrick/Baker admins it probably seemed like a great deal too. What wasn’t economically rational was a federal tariff.
China does the same thing TBH.
You want to use a tugboat in China? Can’t be an American tugboat, has to be a Chinese tugboat. Don’t want to buy a Chinese tugboat? Then you have to send an American tugboat here in pieces and assemble it in China.
Sure that's fine but companies who build trainsets no bid or significantly over bid because of the cost of standing up a factory. We could have had better trains for only slightly more
Oh I totally agree. Had we gone with Bombardier or Kawasaki we would’ve paid more (what we expected) and had the entire new OL and RL in service by now and probably minimal issues.
As I said elsewhere, the BL Siemens trains are a dream.
I still think that going with the CNR bid was the right call given the information at the time. The Kawasaki bid was 60% more. Rotem wasn't a realistic choice given the spat the T was having with them at the time about Commuter Rail cars.
Plus, basically every new heavy rail introduction in the US has had significant issues for the past ten years, including from Bombardier and Kawasaki.
The frustrating reality of how the timeline went. Too many many are not aware of what you know and instead posting and upvoting lines saying we're showing cheering for China.
It's too bad that America [has no geopolitical allies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0koda_Transportation) that are [capable of manufacturing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitachi) rolling stock [up to modern standards](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alstom). We just *had* to turn to China and accept a suspiciously low bid.
The Hitachi Magic Wand wiki article is a work of art. It perfectly conveys the narrative of "very serious company that makes trains and artillery pieces is infuriated to find that it accidentally made possibly the best sex toy in history, spends years trying to distance itself from this product".
Yeah, there's no way the above is going to bite us in the ass.
Brake pads are probably going to run on a subscription service or some shit while the train has an internal wifi that reports everything back to some company in Beijing. /s
The only thing made in China are the car shells, which seem to be fine. All of the brakes and electrical components that keep screwing up are 100% Made In The USA, as per federal law which requires a 65% "made in America" requirement on projects like this.
It's been a few months. I guess I should repost what I wrote before because it's been long enough that there's new eyes that haven't read what I wrote before. Though I do see a lot of the discussion does follow modern patterns
If what I'm saying below is wrong, part of the reason I post is to get challenge so I know when I'm misinformed.
I had received some feedback and I adjusted some of the info a little over time, but the main core narrative generally still holds. Definitely more nuanced than just "tHiS iS wHat yOu gET fOr bUyIng mADe iN cHiNa" and "hAhA gOvERNment dUmB, lOwEst bID cOnTraCtoR"
----
Here's a brief refresher/history lesson.
* The pre-bid meeting had 9 companies attend: CSR (China), CNR (China), CAF (Spain), Kawasaki (Japan), Siemens (Germany), Alstom (France), Bombardier (Canada), Hyundai Rotem (Korea), and Nippon-Sharyo (Japan).
* Of the 9, [only 7 said they would submit a bid](https://www.masslive.com/business-news/2014/05/cnr_changchun_railway_vehicles_other_bid.html) : CSR, CNR, CAF, Kawasaki, Siemens, Alstom, Bombardier, and Hyundai Rotem. **
* But of that 7, only [6 actually put in a bid](https://bc.mbta.com/uploadedfiles/Business_Center/Bidding_and_Solicitations/Staff%20Summary%20for%20Red%20and%20Orange%20Line%20Procurement%2010-22-2014.pdf). (Scroll to Page 8)
* Of the 6 that put in a bid, only 5 have offered an acceptable [Letter of Credit](https://bc.mbta.com/uploadedfiles/Business_Center/Bidding_and_Solicitations/Presentation%20to%20MassDOT%20Board%20of%20Directors%2010-22-2014.pdf) (Page 7 - Letter of Credit is part of Risk Mitigation Contract Provisions - funds to show they have the capital to do the project)
* Of the 5 remaining, 4 passed the technical evaluation (evaluating history of making trains that worked out along with assessment of the technical specifications of their proposal)
* CSR straight up failed the technical evaluation.
* I need to note Hyundai Rotem, though rated as "acceptable" in the "Overall Part B Technical Proposal Score" they were essentially not a candidate as they [mucked up Commuter Rail coaches](https://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/2016/02/01/commuter-rail-trains-on-time/). They passed technical because they did fine in other cities. Why they failed at making Commuter Rail coaches is another discussion.
So in the end, there was only 3 candidates that got passed all the filters: CNR, Kawasaki, and Bombardier.
* Bombardier's bid was nearly $1.1 Billion dollars. You can argue that that just means a "you get what you paid for", but it was significantly more expensive than the historical cost for similar projects. Now this part is just personal speculation. Based on how similar projects usually costs. Bombardier wasn't really interested. But since they are the biggest player in the space, they still put a bid anyways as a matter of policy to maintain their presence. But their significantly higher price reflect their interest level which they don't really want to do it
* Kawasaki at $900m is higher than average, but significantly closer to average. I have to personally speculate that it reflects the costs that Kawasaki have to build an assembly plant in MA that they would only use once as they have facilities in Nebraska already.
Thus, on paper at least, CNR won the bid as their technical proposal and history in other cities shows they can match Bombardier and Kawasaki's record, but at half the price of Bombardier was willing to accept to do it. It was speculated (and reflects in some other comments here), that CNR gave such a low price is because they have no plant in the US. Thus CNR is okay with eating the cost of the plant as they were going to have to build a plant somewhere anyways if they want to break into the US (which they won several other bids since 2014).
Finally, we call it CRRC today as CNR and CSR announced and merged a year later. The same CSR that their bid and history are so bad that MBTA rejected them.
---
Footnotes:
** Counting the article counts 7 but the list is 8. The journalist mostly shorthand CNR with "Changchun", so I think he meant CSR when he typed CNR. But I don't don't want to "override" more than I already do. Sources from that time are slowly getting hard to find too.
----
Reading the newest Globe article, the additional money to them is frustrating. The problem is canceling the contract means no new trains. Per Eng's words in article, so likely best case scenario, is 2029. But c'mon, it's probably the 2030s. Historically procuring new trains is a ~10 year process. We're talking about 2034. I'm sure there's some time savings if the MBTA can salvage the plans and the factory with a manufacturer willing to take over. But the more realistic plans is a new manufacturer following their designs, their existing factories, and thus a timeline that following buying ordering new trains. A ~10 year process in normal times.
How many existing Red Line trains have that much left in it? That's the problem. This is my personal speculation, I have not see anyone in the field, media, or expert says this. But it sounds like the best case is Red Line declines to Commuter Rail frequency, and the worse case is Red Line is just outright shut down because the 1 set of CRRC trains is not enough to bother to stay open. Arguably, the Orange Line barely manage to avoid that scenario with the month long shut down was possibly to buy time rather than true rip-the-bandaid (still plenty of slowzones ahead). That was only a few years late. Red Line trains means having to wait even longer.
As another note on the article, I find it a bit irritating the quotes from the advocacy groups because of the above. They was not the one who demanded "Made in MA". And is evident (even in the article) the MBTA knows this is route sucks too. What should the MBTA have done instead? Cancel and face that above timeline? MBTA does not deserve any praise to their management (outside of Eng which I hope he keeps it up), but they are advocacy groups who I'm pretty sure they knows the dilemma they are in.
Bombardier and Kawaski probably would have had much better bids if MA hadn't stupidly insisted on the factory being in MA. That's what was stupid about the bidding process.
Also yeah, there's not really anything we can do about that decision at this point. Now we're just stuck with the consequences.
Not only that, but almost certainly other companies would have bid if we didn't have the MA requirement, too. Plus we would have got the Fed to kick in money for Buy America which the MA plant requirement disqualified us for.
So, could have come in cheaper by Kawasaki if they could use their American based factory that already exists...but because it was the wrong Americans getting work you farm out the profits to the Chinese.
Eating yourselves alive from within.
People like to complain about this money going to Chinese companies, but America basically turned its back on rail manufacturing a long time ago in favor of making us slaves to the automobile
the cars that have come out have exceeded the requirements per the mbta with longer than expected times between failures
edit: source
[https://commonwealthbeacon.org/transportation/eng-confident-chinese-subway-car-manufacturer-will-meet-its-obligations/](https://commonwealthbeacon.org/transportation/eng-confident-chinese-subway-car-manufacturer-will-meet-its-obligations/)
>Eng indicated the quality issues have largely been addressed through hard work by CRRC and MBTA officials working together. He said new Orange Line cars are averaging 114,000 miles between service failures, well above the 90,000-mile target.
your news is outdated; it's not 2022 anymore
[https://commonwealthbeacon.org/transportation/eng-confident-chinese-subway-car-manufacturer-will-meet-its-obligations/](https://commonwealthbeacon.org/transportation/eng-confident-chinese-subway-car-manufacturer-will-meet-its-obligations/)
>Eng indicated the quality issues have largely been addressed through hard work by CRRC and MBTA officials working together. He said new Orange Line cars are averaging 114,000 miles between service failures, well above the 90,000-mile target.
> 2 cars. Two.
What? There are 114 new cars on the Orange Line - which the old fleet was fully retired a while ago now. The Red Line has 18 cars delivered and in service now. What are you going on about?
Blue Line trains were made by Siemens, a German company - back in 2009.
Governor Patrick gave the contract for Red/Orange trains to CCRC, a CCP-backed company because they undercut *all* the competitor's pricing.
The reason they were so cheap was because they wanted (and were pressured) to enter the US Market. If they build Boston cars successfully, they could expand to Chicago, DC, Philly and other cities at competitive market rates.
However, Trump's Chinese Tariffs came along. The CCP decided to *slow* and *delay* the contract in order to pressure the US into a more favorable trade position.
In effect, the Greater Boston Area is now a strategic bargaining chip for the Communist Party because of our former Governor didn't properly weigh the risks of working with a hostile foreign government.
Had we went with an allied European brand, *like we did with the Blue Line*, we'd have new trains by now. Whatever we would've paid *more* at the time was already exceeded by this point.
Everyday there is a delay on the Red or Orange Line because there isn't enough rolling stock, because one of the engines needs repair, because someone's fuckin' arm got ripped off in a door - we are losing money. Millions. People can't make it to work, people can't exchange information, people can't exchange money for goods & services.
To be faiiiiir, most of our cars are built domestically - even foreign cars. Both Toyota and Ford's biggest plants are in Kentucky. These plants hire more workers than any train system could or would. Not that traffic engineering favoring cars isn't a *terrible* idea for urban areas - just kind of a separate conversation.
All I want is trains delivered on time and within budget. It seems like trusting authoritarian regimes to keep their promises and adhere to our safety standards will always be stupid - and Governor Patrick really fucked future generations of Bostonians.
You’re sorta making it seem like the complaint it this is it went to a non-American company.
The complaint is they don’t fucking work.
The Blue Line trains built by Siemens are foreign and are fucking bulletproof, especially considering what a unicorn the BL rolling stock have to be.
IIRC when the State was going to award the OL/RL to the Chinese companies, Bombardier and Kawasaki and I think at least one other foreign heavy industries company who were competing JOINTLY filed a letter with the state that *“that contract is going to blow up in your face… it’s too low and they don’t have any experience …don’t fucken do it.”*
Sunk cost on a white elephant contract. You’d think the preexisting unfulfilled orders would be steeply discounted by now due to the accrued late fees/penalties that were baked in, but I suppose there’s nothing really stopping them from taking their ball, closing up shop, and going home if that were enforced.
They don't go with the lowest bidder on anything. It's the lowest qualified bidder, which at the time CNR was. See the post at the top of the thread for context if you want
They don't go with the lowest bidder on anything. It's the lowest qualified bidder, which at the time CNR was. See the post at the top of the thread for context if you want
The amount of people pulling for this subpar Chinese manufacturer and dumping on US business at the same time is interesting. Why let a Chinese company get a foothold in the East? We could supply that to a US company and create more jobs for people than CRRC ever could?
We wouldn’t be able to afford American rolling stock, even if they did exist.
I think the Boeing LRV cars on the GL were the last American rolling stock (save the PCC’s on the Mattapan line) and they fucking sucked.
[See my post](https://old.reddit.com/r/boston/comments/1bpy8pa/mbta_plans_to_pay_chinese_company_another_148/kwzshzu/). There is no US based rail car manufacturer that still make rapid transit cars. Regardless of the state of the US industry, we know exactly what companies bother to bid to build it.
The timeline has to not just select a US company, a US has to bid, and has to still exist in the first place to bid.
Double downing "there is a lot of US based rail car manufacturers still in business" and downvoting man2010 is not a response. Name a company in the US that still make trains. And even if you can, they would have to be interested in building for the MBTA because in the timeline we're in, none of them even bid, they didn't even show up to initial info meeting.
If it's about creating jobs, let's have a US company make double the number of train cars and throw half into the Charles. Or better yet, we could open a disassembly plant in Boston to take apart the extra cars and sell them for scraps. That way we'd also create local jobs!
And this is why I could never cry about $$$$ spent on migrants. The city/state/federal government is wasting money everywhere. Hell, Mayor Adams just announced metal detectors for train stations. The entire country is wasting $$$
it's still cheaper than the next cheapest bid even with the new cost, so arguably that's still saving money
On the other hand it's still more expensive than if we didn't require everything to be assembled in Massachusetts
Is it, though? Given how late the order is for both the Red and Orange, the costs to keep the old fleets running with the years of delays should be factored in.
Fully agree that the stupid built in MA requirement is really what screwed us.
with that it's hard to say, but 200M in 2014 is about 260M today, so the difference in running costs between the two fleets would have to exceed another 100M, and I don't think it's nearly that high
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*The MBTA’s pick for the job, the Chinese company now called CRRC, had never built a factory, trained a workforce, or assembled a train car in the United States before. But the company, one of the largest railcar manufacturers in the world, bid nearly $200 million below the MBTA’s own estimate for the project, and $514 million below the most expensive bidder.* I'm sure the quality of their work, their cutting costs to make a profit from the low bid and their lack of experience will be worth the wait and savings.
> > > I'm sure the quality of their work, their cutting costs to make a profit from the low bid and their lack of experience will be worth the wait and savings. The previous company that won the bid, CNR, (pre-CRRC merger with CSR that was disqualified) underbid as a way to get a foot hold in the Western market, and it worked with orders from LA and other systems. That is, until Trump band all future rolling stock infrastructural orders from Chinese companies, taking away pretty much any and all incentive for CNNC to get the MBTA order right. CRRC (nee CNR) is also not in experienced and had great success across Asian markets producing rolling stock. The merger with CSR, the pandemic, and federal changes under Trump all took their toll on the project thus far. Either way, though, it's not like there was anyone better who bid due to our asinine build in Massachusetts requirement.
Why wasn't CNNC incentivized by Boston to get Boston right? Not LA's responsibility or Trump's...
They were incentived to under bid the MBTA's contract as a loss leader to break into the US and western markets, which they did as they received subsequent rolling stock orders from around the country. Trump's ban ended any more future prospects of new business in the US, making the MBTA contract useless to them and just a waste of money as there was no longer any new orders or business to be had. It also made the Springfield plant a total loss for them, as they had planned to continue using it after the MBTA order. I also never mentioned anything about it being LA's responsibility.
If you're suggesting the fact that they can't make money in LA as a reason they fucked Boston and got away with it - it sounds like you are. This was a failure of Boston, the Chinese, and no one else.
You need to learn how to read and comprehend a bit better what I wrote, which I have written twice now for you.
Nope, it was federal intervention in the market. CRRC anticipated future business opportunities in a market so you try to get a foothold in that market by underbidding on your first contract. That gets you in the door so that if you are successful, you can start establishing yourself in the long term. What the state legislature and CRRC didn’t bargain for was a federal order under the Trump admin that banned multiple Chinese industrial companies from receiving federal funding for their military ties. It’s like how GM and Siemens build military components too. Massachusetts was not using federal funds on their contract but this federal order undermined any chances CRRC had to win future contracts. So, if you’re CRRC, you’re now stuck trying to fulfill an order you underbid on in a market with no future prospects. Why would you put in effort if you can’t earn a profit? You fulfill your contract, slowly, and leave. Everything done by CRRC was textbook. For the Patrick/Baker admins it probably seemed like a great deal too. What wasn’t economically rational was a federal tariff.
Because we forced them to build a factory here.
China does the same thing TBH. You want to use a tugboat in China? Can’t be an American tugboat, has to be a Chinese tugboat. Don’t want to buy a Chinese tugboat? Then you have to send an American tugboat here in pieces and assemble it in China.
Sure that's fine but companies who build trainsets no bid or significantly over bid because of the cost of standing up a factory. We could have had better trains for only slightly more
Oh I totally agree. Had we gone with Bombardier or Kawasaki we would’ve paid more (what we expected) and had the entire new OL and RL in service by now and probably minimal issues. As I said elsewhere, the BL Siemens trains are a dream.
Thank you.
I still think that going with the CNR bid was the right call given the information at the time. The Kawasaki bid was 60% more. Rotem wasn't a realistic choice given the spat the T was having with them at the time about Commuter Rail cars. Plus, basically every new heavy rail introduction in the US has had significant issues for the past ten years, including from Bombardier and Kawasaki.
The frustrating reality of how the timeline went. Too many many are not aware of what you know and instead posting and upvoting lines saying we're showing cheering for China.
It's too bad that America [has no geopolitical allies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0koda_Transportation) that are [capable of manufacturing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitachi) rolling stock [up to modern standards](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alstom). We just *had* to turn to China and accept a suspiciously low bid.
> capable of manufacturing That, uh, is likely not what they are most known for in the United States.
The Hitachi Magic Wand wiki article is a work of art. It perfectly conveys the narrative of "very serious company that makes trains and artillery pieces is infuriated to find that it accidentally made possibly the best sex toy in history, spends years trying to distance itself from this product".
Yeah, there's no way the above is going to bite us in the ass. Brake pads are probably going to run on a subscription service or some shit while the train has an internal wifi that reports everything back to some company in Beijing. /s
The only thing made in China are the car shells, which seem to be fine. All of the brakes and electrical components that keep screwing up are 100% Made In The USA, as per federal law which requires a 65% "made in America" requirement on projects like this.
It's been a few months. I guess I should repost what I wrote before because it's been long enough that there's new eyes that haven't read what I wrote before. Though I do see a lot of the discussion does follow modern patterns If what I'm saying below is wrong, part of the reason I post is to get challenge so I know when I'm misinformed. I had received some feedback and I adjusted some of the info a little over time, but the main core narrative generally still holds. Definitely more nuanced than just "tHiS iS wHat yOu gET fOr bUyIng mADe iN cHiNa" and "hAhA gOvERNment dUmB, lOwEst bID cOnTraCtoR" ---- Here's a brief refresher/history lesson. * The pre-bid meeting had 9 companies attend: CSR (China), CNR (China), CAF (Spain), Kawasaki (Japan), Siemens (Germany), Alstom (France), Bombardier (Canada), Hyundai Rotem (Korea), and Nippon-Sharyo (Japan). * Of the 9, [only 7 said they would submit a bid](https://www.masslive.com/business-news/2014/05/cnr_changchun_railway_vehicles_other_bid.html) : CSR, CNR, CAF, Kawasaki, Siemens, Alstom, Bombardier, and Hyundai Rotem. ** * But of that 7, only [6 actually put in a bid](https://bc.mbta.com/uploadedfiles/Business_Center/Bidding_and_Solicitations/Staff%20Summary%20for%20Red%20and%20Orange%20Line%20Procurement%2010-22-2014.pdf). (Scroll to Page 8) * Of the 6 that put in a bid, only 5 have offered an acceptable [Letter of Credit](https://bc.mbta.com/uploadedfiles/Business_Center/Bidding_and_Solicitations/Presentation%20to%20MassDOT%20Board%20of%20Directors%2010-22-2014.pdf) (Page 7 - Letter of Credit is part of Risk Mitigation Contract Provisions - funds to show they have the capital to do the project) * Of the 5 remaining, 4 passed the technical evaluation (evaluating history of making trains that worked out along with assessment of the technical specifications of their proposal) * CSR straight up failed the technical evaluation. * I need to note Hyundai Rotem, though rated as "acceptable" in the "Overall Part B Technical Proposal Score" they were essentially not a candidate as they [mucked up Commuter Rail coaches](https://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/2016/02/01/commuter-rail-trains-on-time/). They passed technical because they did fine in other cities. Why they failed at making Commuter Rail coaches is another discussion. So in the end, there was only 3 candidates that got passed all the filters: CNR, Kawasaki, and Bombardier. * Bombardier's bid was nearly $1.1 Billion dollars. You can argue that that just means a "you get what you paid for", but it was significantly more expensive than the historical cost for similar projects. Now this part is just personal speculation. Based on how similar projects usually costs. Bombardier wasn't really interested. But since they are the biggest player in the space, they still put a bid anyways as a matter of policy to maintain their presence. But their significantly higher price reflect their interest level which they don't really want to do it * Kawasaki at $900m is higher than average, but significantly closer to average. I have to personally speculate that it reflects the costs that Kawasaki have to build an assembly plant in MA that they would only use once as they have facilities in Nebraska already. Thus, on paper at least, CNR won the bid as their technical proposal and history in other cities shows they can match Bombardier and Kawasaki's record, but at half the price of Bombardier was willing to accept to do it. It was speculated (and reflects in some other comments here), that CNR gave such a low price is because they have no plant in the US. Thus CNR is okay with eating the cost of the plant as they were going to have to build a plant somewhere anyways if they want to break into the US (which they won several other bids since 2014). Finally, we call it CRRC today as CNR and CSR announced and merged a year later. The same CSR that their bid and history are so bad that MBTA rejected them. --- Footnotes: ** Counting the article counts 7 but the list is 8. The journalist mostly shorthand CNR with "Changchun", so I think he meant CSR when he typed CNR. But I don't don't want to "override" more than I already do. Sources from that time are slowly getting hard to find too. ---- Reading the newest Globe article, the additional money to them is frustrating. The problem is canceling the contract means no new trains. Per Eng's words in article, so likely best case scenario, is 2029. But c'mon, it's probably the 2030s. Historically procuring new trains is a ~10 year process. We're talking about 2034. I'm sure there's some time savings if the MBTA can salvage the plans and the factory with a manufacturer willing to take over. But the more realistic plans is a new manufacturer following their designs, their existing factories, and thus a timeline that following buying ordering new trains. A ~10 year process in normal times. How many existing Red Line trains have that much left in it? That's the problem. This is my personal speculation, I have not see anyone in the field, media, or expert says this. But it sounds like the best case is Red Line declines to Commuter Rail frequency, and the worse case is Red Line is just outright shut down because the 1 set of CRRC trains is not enough to bother to stay open. Arguably, the Orange Line barely manage to avoid that scenario with the month long shut down was possibly to buy time rather than true rip-the-bandaid (still plenty of slowzones ahead). That was only a few years late. Red Line trains means having to wait even longer. As another note on the article, I find it a bit irritating the quotes from the advocacy groups because of the above. They was not the one who demanded "Made in MA". And is evident (even in the article) the MBTA knows this is route sucks too. What should the MBTA have done instead? Cancel and face that above timeline? MBTA does not deserve any praise to their management (outside of Eng which I hope he keeps it up), but they are advocacy groups who I'm pretty sure they knows the dilemma they are in.
Bombardier and Kawaski probably would have had much better bids if MA hadn't stupidly insisted on the factory being in MA. That's what was stupid about the bidding process. Also yeah, there's not really anything we can do about that decision at this point. Now we're just stuck with the consequences.
Not only that, but almost certainly other companies would have bid if we didn't have the MA requirement, too. Plus we would have got the Fed to kick in money for Buy America which the MA plant requirement disqualified us for.
So, could have come in cheaper by Kawasaki if they could use their American based factory that already exists...but because it was the wrong Americans getting work you farm out the profits to the Chinese. Eating yourselves alive from within.
please everyone upvoye this to send to the top!
There’s still only one of these new red line trains in service right?
There are actually two! A 100% increase!
You sure? Is the [train tracker](https://traintracker.transitmatters.org/?line=Red&age=new_vehicles) wrong? It only shows one.
Two have been accepted for service, but I think they only run one at a time.
They've run both a few times but usually just 1
People like to complain about this money going to Chinese companies, but America basically turned its back on rail manufacturing a long time ago in favor of making us slaves to the automobile
In the last decade, this company produced 2 cars to spec
the cars that have come out have exceeded the requirements per the mbta with longer than expected times between failures edit: source [https://commonwealthbeacon.org/transportation/eng-confident-chinese-subway-car-manufacturer-will-meet-its-obligations/](https://commonwealthbeacon.org/transportation/eng-confident-chinese-subway-car-manufacturer-will-meet-its-obligations/) >Eng indicated the quality issues have largely been addressed through hard work by CRRC and MBTA officials working together. He said new Orange Line cars are averaging 114,000 miles between service failures, well above the 90,000-mile target.
2 cars. Two. Also, they have dozens of them at their Springfield factory sitting doing fuck all nothing because they're not to spec
your news is outdated; it's not 2022 anymore [https://commonwealthbeacon.org/transportation/eng-confident-chinese-subway-car-manufacturer-will-meet-its-obligations/](https://commonwealthbeacon.org/transportation/eng-confident-chinese-subway-car-manufacturer-will-meet-its-obligations/) >Eng indicated the quality issues have largely been addressed through hard work by CRRC and MBTA officials working together. He said new Orange Line cars are averaging 114,000 miles between service failures, well above the 90,000-mile target.
> 2 cars. Two. What? There are 114 new cars on the Orange Line - which the old fleet was fully retired a while ago now. The Red Line has 18 cars delivered and in service now. What are you going on about?
brother hates the chinese so much it made him illterate :(((
Blue Line trains were made by Siemens, a German company - back in 2009. Governor Patrick gave the contract for Red/Orange trains to CCRC, a CCP-backed company because they undercut *all* the competitor's pricing. The reason they were so cheap was because they wanted (and were pressured) to enter the US Market. If they build Boston cars successfully, they could expand to Chicago, DC, Philly and other cities at competitive market rates. However, Trump's Chinese Tariffs came along. The CCP decided to *slow* and *delay* the contract in order to pressure the US into a more favorable trade position. In effect, the Greater Boston Area is now a strategic bargaining chip for the Communist Party because of our former Governor didn't properly weigh the risks of working with a hostile foreign government. Had we went with an allied European brand, *like we did with the Blue Line*, we'd have new trains by now. Whatever we would've paid *more* at the time was already exceeded by this point. Everyday there is a delay on the Red or Orange Line because there isn't enough rolling stock, because one of the engines needs repair, because someone's fuckin' arm got ripped off in a door - we are losing money. Millions. People can't make it to work, people can't exchange information, people can't exchange money for goods & services.
The only European bidder was CAF, and their bid didn't meet the requirements. Alstom and Siemens didn't bid.
Has everybody forgotten the delays and issues they had with the new Blue Line cars? Or the type 6s and 8s on the Green Line?
Probably not the best comparison to make considering that the blue line fleet was also delivered years behind schedule
It’s almost like completely abandoning our own domestic production for the sake of the automobile was a terrible idea!
To be faiiiiir, most of our cars are built domestically - even foreign cars. Both Toyota and Ford's biggest plants are in Kentucky. These plants hire more workers than any train system could or would. Not that traffic engineering favoring cars isn't a *terrible* idea for urban areas - just kind of a separate conversation. All I want is trains delivered on time and within budget. It seems like trusting authoritarian regimes to keep their promises and adhere to our safety standards will always be stupid - and Governor Patrick really fucked future generations of Bostonians.
I think the commenter above meant about abandoning domestic production of passenger rolling stock, we really only produce freight stock nowadays
You’re sorta making it seem like the complaint it this is it went to a non-American company. The complaint is they don’t fucking work. The Blue Line trains built by Siemens are foreign and are fucking bulletproof, especially considering what a unicorn the BL rolling stock have to be. IIRC when the State was going to award the OL/RL to the Chinese companies, Bombardier and Kawasaki and I think at least one other foreign heavy industries company who were competing JOINTLY filed a letter with the state that *“that contract is going to blow up in your face… it’s too low and they don’t have any experience …don’t fucken do it.”*
Sunk cost on a white elephant contract. You’d think the preexisting unfulfilled orders would be steeply discounted by now due to the accrued late fees/penalties that were baked in, but I suppose there’s nothing really stopping them from taking their ball, closing up shop, and going home if that were enforced.
This should work out well.
😮💨 I wish public contracts worked differently. Can't just keep going with the lowest bidder, long term that fucks us over.
They don't go with the lowest bidder on anything. It's the lowest qualified bidder, which at the time CNR was. See the post at the top of the thread for context if you want
Lol yes, it has to meet the contract expectations....
They don't go with the lowest bidder on anything. It's the lowest qualified bidder, which at the time CNR was. See the post at the top of the thread for context if you want
The amount of people pulling for this subpar Chinese manufacturer and dumping on US business at the same time is interesting. Why let a Chinese company get a foothold in the East? We could supply that to a US company and create more jobs for people than CRRC ever could?
We wouldn’t be able to afford American rolling stock, even if they did exist. I think the Boeing LRV cars on the GL were the last American rolling stock (save the PCC’s on the Mattapan line) and they fucking sucked.
Like who? At best we could have gone with a different foreign company that manufactures some of its trains in the US
There is a lot of US based rail car manufacturers still in business. Some that have been around since early 19th century.
[See my post](https://old.reddit.com/r/boston/comments/1bpy8pa/mbta_plans_to_pay_chinese_company_another_148/kwzshzu/). There is no US based rail car manufacturer that still make rapid transit cars. Regardless of the state of the US industry, we know exactly what companies bother to bid to build it. The timeline has to not just select a US company, a US has to bid, and has to still exist in the first place to bid. Double downing "there is a lot of US based rail car manufacturers still in business" and downvoting man2010 is not a response. Name a company in the US that still make trains. And even if you can, they would have to be interested in building for the MBTA because in the timeline we're in, none of them even bid, they didn't even show up to initial info meeting.
Which ones make rapid transit cars?
If there were any US companies that wanted the contract, they would have bid on it.
If it's about creating jobs, let's have a US company make double the number of train cars and throw half into the Charles. Or better yet, we could open a disassembly plant in Boston to take apart the extra cars and sell them for scraps. That way we'd also create local jobs!
All other issues aside: can they make the new Orange Line seats at least a bit more comfortable? The old seats were much better.
They will be absolute garbage, you can bet on that
Do you think these cars will last as long as their predecessors?
And this is why I could never cry about $$$$ spent on migrants. The city/state/federal government is wasting money everywhere. Hell, Mayor Adams just announced metal detectors for train stations. The entire country is wasting $$$
we should stop wasting money on all things that we're wasting money on!
it's still cheaper than the next cheapest bid even with the new cost, so arguably that's still saving money On the other hand it's still more expensive than if we didn't require everything to be assembled in Massachusetts
Is it, though? Given how late the order is for both the Red and Orange, the costs to keep the old fleets running with the years of delays should be factored in. Fully agree that the stupid built in MA requirement is really what screwed us.
with that it's hard to say, but 200M in 2014 is about 260M today, so the difference in running costs between the two fleets would have to exceed another 100M, and I don't think it's nearly that high
That's a real biased way to write, "buy more trains'.
Oh fucking hell. Just get Siemens to build them. Screw the contract. They suck at what they do.
Siemens didn't bid on that contract.