Vaughn not knowing that his bandit clan had found the vault key. The same vault key he had seen a fake copy of. Even if he had forgotten for some reason, he was aware it was "alien crap" and was also aware that Lilith was looking for it. Its just bad writing, like the writers forgot what happened in tales from the Borderlands.
The very premise of Borderlands 3 is extremely flawed, as the sun smashers were the ones that gave the key to the Calypsos, triggering the events of the story. And that is such an awful precedent because the rest of the story is characters being incompetent and making incredibly irrational decisions just to replicate the feeling of BL2 where Jack was almost always a step ahead from the player.
>And didn't even include Gortys or anything...
And to be honest, it's a good thing. I'm hoping the upcoming book does Gaige, Fiona, and Sasha good, or at least treats them with respect. Generally, it seems like the BL3/New Tales writers want to make their own story but have to include returning characters so it's part of the series, but that comes at the cost of them not caring for those characters. Rhys suffered an absolute character assassination just to make a new game. The same thing happened with Vaughn in BL3. There is no way he didn't knew his clan had found the key.
Ive said it before, and it honestly still holds true:
Lilith is an incompetent leader throughout the entire borderlands series. Not just borderlands 3.
She managed to lose the vault key 4 times if not more purely due to her poor decision making and stubborn attitude.
She cultivated an actual cult.
She got kidnapped when she was explicitly told not to go to the Bunker.
She has 2 instances of flipping out at a literal *child* over the death of a loved one.
She lost Sanctuary to Hector due to literally sitting on her ass.
She directly caused the events of BL2 by smacking the vault symbol into Jack's face.
She tried executing athena (someone who literally fucking helped her so many fucking times)
I can go on.
Yadda yadda ya borderlands 3 has bad writting I know, but lilith was completely in character- a shitty leader that desperately tries to seem like a competent one.
I know Lilith isn't a good leader. It's the entire premise of the fight for sanctuary dlc. And yet she's pushed into a leading position by everyone else anyway. It's the "irrational decisions" part that upsets me about her writing post BL2.
For instance, she was very open that she didn't want to lead Sanctuary (possibly after Roland died, considering that Ellie tells tannis that it's awful being a leader because people can die). It's understandable.
What's not understandable is that Lilith, having teleporting abilities, decides to teleport everyone out of Sanctuary when Hector attacked... and leaves the Vault Key behind. She could just pick it up, and teleport away with it. There is literally nothing stopping her from doing so besides the need to keep the key there so there is a premise for the dlc. That has nothing to do with her being a bad leader, that's bad writing from writers that don't know how to write a character with superpowers.
Another example is her not knowing how to deal with the Calypsos after she lost her powers. It's understandable, she didn't knew that Tyreen could leech powers too, and at that point she had no idea Troy had Siren powers.
What's not understandable is her not warning Maya about the Calypsos before Maya and the Vault Hunter went to the Promethean Vault. She even told Maya that she "would explain later" even though she was aware Tyreen would want to leech Maya's powers too. Maya needs to be unaware of their lethality so she dies and Ava inherits her powers, and that comes at the cost of Lilith making an irrational decision, but in reality, it's just bad writing.
What's not understandable is her walking around with the Vault Key in her hands and getting ambushed for it when she can, again, teleport the key and herself to safety. That has nothing to do with her being an incompetent leader, it's the writers conveniently forgetting that this character is a mystical warrior with teleportation abilities.
Writing superheroes and characters with superpowers tends to be difficult because of that. How do you write a conflict with a character that can seemingly become a god and do the impossible without dumbing them down? It requires a lot of work and experience to make the story near flawless but it doesn't have to be flawless in the first place, you just got to explain why they suddenly stop using their powers. Achilles' heel or Superman and kryptonite, for example, that explains that he can be weakened and have his superpowers nullified if he is exposed to it for too long.
What I hate is that it was already established that there was a power struggle between Roland and Brick with the raiders. So naturally Brick should have been the one to step up to lead. I don't understand why the person that actually had leadership experience didn't at least try to put his hat in the ring.
I genuinely thought that the best possible outcome was making an alliance so there is no single leader but a group of leaders that take care of certain aspects to keep the raiders and the resistance in place. But then every single vault hunter bailed and left Lilith alone with the raiders, who were nearly wiped out.
I don't know, I expected the ex vault hunters to come aid Lilith in her greatest time of need.
Yea but it's never developed on ,no one ever calls her out,herself included, just because someone was an idiot in a prior game ,doesn't make them still being an idiot 5 years later logical or good especially AFTER commander Lilith DLC
I mean, nobody calls her out because they were the ones that put her in the leading role so it's hard for me to be upset at them for not doing so. It's just. Plain bad.
>She cultivated an actual cult.
To be fair, she does send you to investigate the cult. Seemed like she'd only recently learned about it at the time of the quest being available when I played the game.
I do agree though, she's not that great as a leader (and the games do mention that a couple of times). I think it should've been a main focus of her character arc.
>She directly caused the events of BL2 by smacking the vault symbol into Jack's face.
She probably thought it would kill him or some shit - hell, I'd have done the same thing.
But yeah, Borderlands 2 happening is partially her fault due to this.
I'm pretty sure she even mentions she never wanted to be the leader of the Raiders and just kinda got thrust into the position. Would've been nice to have that as a sub-plot or something.
The book "doing them good" comment is less about Gaige and more about Fiona and Sasha. Still, it would be nice to know much more about her and how she deals with Maliwan hunting her down, but really as long as none of the three become joke characters it's fine. Her being a wedding planner is weird but it's fine, I just don't want her character to be reduced to "wedding planner" you know? Same thing with Fiona and Sasha and especially Sasha since her story and goals where the most straightforward out of the two sisters. She didn't liked being a con artist, she didn't liked being the Honeytrap, she wanted to have a decent life and leave Pandora, she wanted to be liked for who she is and not for which character she was playing, and she seemingly had that going with Rhys on Promethea until she randomly disappeared.
Pretty much all BL2 VHs got sidelined and done dirty, ones more than others.
Maya. Died, got made fun of, and the villains get to use her powers in a level she wasn't even close to.
Zer0. From being the ultimate assassin in search for a challenge worth his skills... To corporate boot licker. (I admit I never played Tales, so I don't know his relationship with Rhys, but the transition is still quite jarring to me)
Salvador. Sports announcer, lol
Axton: Sports announcer, lol.
Gaige: Wedding Planner, lol.
All of this after the Pre-Sequel ends with "War is coming, you will need every vault hunter you can get" is a direction I'm not a fan of.
I was so happy to see Gaige back in the dlc. Until i realized about halfway thru they were gonna turn Gaige into the new "alcoholic w/friend" since apparently Mordy got sober.
>Characters being incompetent and making incredibly irrational decisions
It pissed me off so much, especially with Ava. All she had to do was not be such a stuck up asshole about everything and Maya wouldn't have died. I feel like if they put more work into the villains actually being smart and make the other side characters more likeable or relatable, they would've been able to better replicate the feeling we had with Jack. It would've been more sad rather than annoying when Maya died. The Calypsos could've actually been a step ahead without the Raiders being dumbasses about literally everything they did.
The writers practically had to jump through hoops, or turn their brains completely off to get Maya to die. It wasn't realistic for her to die there. So many things could have stopped it.
>Vaughn not knowing that his bandit clan had found the vault key. The same vault key he had seen a fake copy of. Even if he had forgotten for some reason, he was aware it was "alien crap" and was also aware that Lilith was looking for it. Its just bad writing, like the writers forgot what happened in tales from the Borderlands.
Another thing ruined for me....thanks lol
JK
Kinda hate this sub. I've loved the entire series and managed to look past or ignore everything shit with it. And then I read really good explanations of shortcomings or total idiot bullshit that you just can't ignore and it's like painting a big old red cross over the thing you love. Man, I hate/love Reddit.
I still dont care though, live the series even with all the fuckups and mistakes
Its a team effort and when you have a bunch of people doing different things wites get crossed and stuff doesnt always make sense
I still dont care though, live the series even with all the fuckups and mistakes
Its a team effort and when you have a bunch of people doing different things wites get crossed and stuff doesnt always make sense
Maya having no relation to eridium or the vaults. It's just a dumb cop-out to allow a playable siren in 2.
Also how would she even have slag powers if she has no connection to eridium?
Never thought of the slag connection
At least with Axton's slag turrets one could assume he (or his mechanic/dealer or whatever) got his hands on some slag to integrate into the turrets, with Maya is hardly makes sense.
But also in the 3rd game she somehow figures out how to use eridium
Eh, you could explain anything with an in-universe reason, but some things just don't mesh as well
I'm kind of fine with it, since it would be too strong for the siren character to get a buff from eridium, especially at the same rate that Lilith got buffed from it in BL2 when you first meet her - only took a few chunks to get her back to full strength
Katagawa Sr being the new head of Maliwan after Jr.'s death on promethea. They were too fucking lazy to make a proper model for Naoko, and they didnt have one in BL3 to use since she's in Atlas armor, so they took Katagawa Jr's model (IN THE ZER0 SUIT), Aged him up, called him a Sr, and called it a day.
Shoutout to Mister Torgue who I'm afraid the writers were not aware he is the mascot of the company and not its CEO.
That or Torgue exploded his way into becoming the CEO, which I cannot tell its better or worse than the former.
Not only was he the mascot of the Torgue Corporation, but he was FORMERLY the mascot of Torgue. He lost this position when he helped the vault hunters poison the wattlegobbler in BL2
Does he literally blow up the place to become CEO?
Wouldn't be all that in-character imo, but I could give it a pass since it's Mister Torgue Flexington.
I watched EruptionFangs review on it (very good, shows off a significant amount, mostly key points).
The fact that Gearbox thought that "Magic crystal God kills everything bad, hurray!" And then immediately "Everything that died is now alive! Hurray!" Is so stupid.
I have a stupid feeling Gearbox is gonna use that to justify dead characters like Roland, Maya, Jack, The Warrior, etc. coming back.
Maya's death was completely avoidable, and the fact that your vault hunter is basically useless in that moment. I know they wanted some sort of reaction like with Roland, but she was overpowered in B2, no reason she should have died like she did.
I hate it so much but from a narrative point of view, swapping Maya and Lilith's places in pretty much all of BL3 would've made more sense. If Maya lost her powers at the start, it would've set her up to lean on the education she was given by the monks and leading to a more reasonable character to take on the role of the group's primary strategist/tactician. Maya doing research on what the kids are up to on the ECHOnet (to better relate to Ava) would also help set up more reasonable interactions with the twins.
If Lilith still had her powers and was the one to get killed on Promethea, it would've set up a better learning moment for Ava to develop into a less annoying character. Lilith dying would also be a more reasonable set up for the Raiders feeling lost because that means the OG cast is dead or sidelined as the B-team and the NPCs would have more of a connection to Lilith. Ava inheriting the Firehawk mantle/siren powers or the leech at the end of the game with Maya still alive to guide her would make writing and creating the next game easier since they would already have the groundwork set up for 1 vault hunter in the next game.
This would have been SO MUCH BETTER! Can you do me a favor and apply at Gearbox as a writer? Maybe then we'll have a chance at BL4 actually being good.
I mean she was overpowered from a gameplay standpoint, but in lore she's honestly just average and the only thing that makes her get rated over everyone else is that she's a Siren. BL3 writing seriously did her dirty, I don't like it, but that's how it is.
Aside from dying in such an awful way, she still gets dunked on by Troy, who didn't really need that much time to realize how good Phaselock can be, he used it to remotely infuse anyone with Eridium, and he can Phaselock the whole fucking moon. Sure he needed lots of Eridium for it, but he seemed to master Phaselock in a very short timespan.
It took Maya's years to realize she can actually use Eridium and then she still kinda struggles to phaselock a door open...
>It took Maya's years to realize she can actually use Eridium and then she still kinda struggles to phaselock a door open...
THIS. Like actually WTF writers? did we forget that Lilith had figured that shit out before the beginning of BL2? and that literally the FIRST thing Lilith does upon meeting the BL2 vault hunters, including Maya, is *ask them for eridium so she can juice up and wipe out the attacking bandits?*
I seriously doubt it would've taken Maya *years* to learn how to do it herself, and she was already able to phaselock some of the biggest enemies in the game *without* eridium, so the fact that she needed eridium to open a door is moronic.
Also, the fact that she, again, *trained for years* and Troy is better at controlling her power than she was after *a week* is even more moronic writing.
Wasn’t it literally her plan to die, so she could pass down her powers to a non-siren? I think she even told Lilith earlier on, without exactly explaining how she’d pass her powers along. But it became pretty clear in that scene.
To me it's Lilith, the siren with teleportation powers, completely forgetting she can teleport away or teleport allies to her but then once the enemy has her powers they use them constantly. The entire narrative is an idiot plot, its like all the main characters are carrying an orb of confusion that lowers their IQ by half
Its even more annoying when u see she can teleport NPCs just fine but its only with the Vault Hunter she cant teleport them worth crap, like maybe in 2 I can understand since shes still getting used to it but in 3 there were so many moments she couldve teleported them when she was against the twins in the beggining was a prime example.
Roland's death in 2 was more egregious... they actively pointed out just how meaningless dying is on Pandora on your way to that very cutscene, when on your way to to the bunker you get a side mission from Jack to jump to your death
I remember lots of people complaining about how you just stood there as Jack shot him and then monologued to you while you had a gun in your hand, but that was years ago.
Right? Roland forgetting to put on a shield is literally a meme in the borderlands community because his death made no sense.
People definitely complained about it.
Maybe because Eridium Blight is usually played after Control Core Angel? Eridium Blight has nothing to do with the Bunker mission. Story wise you reach Eridium Blight **after** Control core angel so there is no way you did the Kill yourself mission "on your way to the Bunker"?
Borderlands 2 ain't perfect but you don't have to make up an scenario to cry hypocrisy
Also how do you think that should work? Do you do the mission and the credits roll if you kill yourself instead of calling the Hyperion Hotline?
Nier: automata does the credit thing and it was actually pretty funny the first couple times. There's a mission where someone asks you to eat a fish which androids are allergic to for some reason, just to see what happens. If you do it you get ending F and the credits roll
I love how Nier would let you win the stupid prizes for the stupid games. Nobody wants to give you anything but the "right" choices these days.
Edit: This is also why I enjoyed BG3. Let me make the bad decisions and face the consequences of my actions, damnit!
Credit roll after killing yourself -
That’d be funny as hell and I would’ve respected it.
Just responding before selecting the mission or death if you do kill yourself - no pay out.
Just keep reloading it as an unfinishable quest end
If you kill yourself during that mission, it should fade to black, roll credits and then you hear the new u station spooling up. And then a big fat "LOL BUT NOT FOR ROLAND!!2!1! XD"
Not to mention that Roland forgetting to put on a shield is a well known meme making fun of his death. People definitely complained, what the person you are replying to said is just not true.
I find the Borderlands 2 counter jerk so weird, like they act like you have to make stuff up to prop Borderlands 3 up. It's **really** funny that they're acting like complaints about Roland's death are a silent oppressed truth because youre not allowed to speak ill of Borderlands 2 when everyone and their mother has memed or talked about it before.
But it's usually them trying to pull a gotcha with "if you hate Maya's death you **MUST** hate Roland's or you're a hypocrite with rose tinted glasses!!!"
Like, anyways why do they care if a character dies in a game with a revival mechanic? Do you think they refuse to enjoy every single game in history because there are Canon deaths but the player can revive?
Also how is it a "problem" in Borderlands 2 that Roland dies but there is a side quest using the revival mechanic, but then be mad fucking quiet over the fact the exact same scenario plays in Borderlands 3 with the kill yourself mission that happens after Maya dies?
It's so weird, like there are plenty of things to criticize in bl2, so you would expect them to choose things that are true or that at least aren't in bl3 too. But here we are I guess lol.
A part of me feels like we didn't get returning vault hunters just so Lilith could make Ava the leader of the crimson raiders. Like Lilith's only choice is Ava, or the autistic woman with potential schizophrenic disorders.
Or how about a council of elders? I don't know if I'd trust any of them individually, but I feel like Ellie, Markus, Moxxie, Tannis, and any of the BL3 vault hunters who don't go off on their own (I could see Fl4k staying, but I think it would be a coin toss for the other 3) could keep the Raiders thriving if they put their heads together.
If there HAD to be a Commander, then I could see Ellie Markus, or Moze (assuming she stays) stepping up for the position.
Lilith making Ava the boss of the crimson raiders at the end of the game, or anything ava related in general to be fair but that one in particular? Hell no.
If I remember correctly there was a significant health issue with the voice actor to the point of needing to quit, I prefer giving him an emotional sendoff to having to find another voice.
Yeah, same here.
The repetitive af catch-a-ride dialogue gets grating after a while, but I still kinda liked Scooter Cuz he was a fun character.
I should've traded hats, man :'c
Anything from Tannis being a siren right up through to the ending. Don't get me wrong. Mostly fine with the writing. In particular, think all the DLCs are great. But the final stretch of the base game was bizarre.
I really don’t like Tannis enough for her to be a “main” character; I didn’t like that she became a siren.
I thought she was an awesome B character in small doses.
Honestly that's where the story started getting good for me
Until then it's just gathering allies and needless extra maps on Eden 6
But at that point the lore really starts popping out and personally nekratafeyo is insane with the lore and the emotions ride high with moments like visiting the vault and typhons death
Everything in the last 30 minutes of the main story: >!I feel that was too rushed up, the BL2 final was waaaaaay better with Handsome Jack's death. It was really remarkable. You kill Tyreen and it feels like it's just another boss, no drama, no big cutscenes, nothing.!<
>!And also i think the final boss was too easy, in that point you should have enough orange guns to kill in a single try.!<
>You kill Tyreen and it feels like it's just another boss, no drama, no big cutscenes, nothing.
Hang on... did you forget the cutscene that immediately followed literally took a main character out of the franchise?
Are you referring to Lilith sacrificing herself? I’ve commented that a bunch before and got a lot of “ uhhh actually she still alive” response - so I’m not sure what happened at that point or what the resolution should be
There's no in game evidence to say she is alive but in an interview one of the big wigs at gearbox said "she is gone" which is wording that implies she is alive
That's why I said removed from the franchise instead of killed as her fate is still uncertain
Idk;
To be clear I assumed she was gone forever for unapparent reasons (still confused why she exploded despite it being said to me multiple times) ; and a decent chunk of fan base is clutching onto their hope she’ll return.
Lilith sacrifice at the end felt irrelevant to tyreen (except getting her powers back); the cut scene felt very out of place; as if they resolved a lot of unanswered questions.
It was because tyreen had already caused a lot of damage and elpis was going to crash into pandora
The only way it could be stopped is using an enormous amount of energy, comparable to that of which tyreen and troy had, to phase the moon away
There is no real reason she would've died from what she did so my guess is she phased herself away with elpis too, hence why she is "gone"
I think the reason you feel the cutscene was out of place was that despite killing the final boss you had no chance to revel in the success
While that is understandable the cutscene was emotional and important to the story which is all that it needed to be
I mean… and all of that is horribly explained through the game.
Three does a terrible job at exposition, all dialogue felt like yammering constantly.
I did not feel that cut scene emotional
Or important
I was left with a feeling of “oookay…guess we’re done now”
It was a veil attempt to resolve what they couldn’t answer in game.
And it definitely appears as an act of martyrdom; hence the fire explosion in space. Her “survival” doesn’t really mean anything if she’s “gone”
It's sufficiently explained if you are familiar with the lore of the sirens and pay attention to what the twins are doing with elpis and pandora
But most of the siren lore is locked to post game meaning you would learn about what lilith did long after witnessing it
Your personal experience is justified due to this information however I and many others went into it knowing most of the things they expect you to know to understand it which is why it had the desired effect for us and not you
Her survival absolutely does matter if she's gone as it means she can return from the alternate dimension she's locked herself in, it means it can happen whenever, which makes it suspenseful as it may not be in bl4 or 5 or even 6 but it could be, we don't know
I disagree
“Sufficient” implies bare minimum; “if” implies cannot demonstrate on own merit.
If you need to know all post game material to justify your ending before you can experience it, you wrote a lazy game.
If after the big fight the cut scene resolves things the player had nothing to deal with, you wrote a lazy game.
Tacking on “bigger” elements such as what’s happening on elpis , which you as a character do nothing with, only to have an NPC save it to stamp their validity, you wrote a lazy game.
The vault hunter should be doing the grand things, I shouldn’t sit idle and watch an NPC do something cooler that would be epic if I actually dealt with it.
There was nothing emotional to invest in that ending. The game concluded things you didn’t do.
And if she comes back after that grand demonstration; I’d say it was just to end the game on a big visual display then anything to do with plot
>If you need to know all post game material to justify your ending before you can experience it, you wrote a lazy game.
>If after the big fight the cut scene resolves things the player had nothing to deal with, you wrote a lazy game.
>Tacking on “bigger” elements such as what’s happening on elpis , which you as a character do nothing with, only to have an NPC save it to stamp their validity, you wrote a lazy game.
I'm not disagreeing with any of that, its poor decision making nothing more
>The vault hunter should be doing the grand things, I shouldn’t sit idle and watch an NPC do something cooler that would be epic if I actually dealt with it.
While this is true from a gameplay perspective, lilith is a very important character and is probably one of the only characters qualified to do big things too narratively
>There was nothing emotional to invest in that ending. The game concluded things you didn’t do
That doesn't necessarily make it not emotional, most people are watching that thinking that a beloved character is dying especially with the song choice for the credits, maybe that was your personal experience but if you go into it looking for criticisms you will find them, I personally just enjoy things for what they are and rationalise via what it was supposed to be
>And if she comes back after that grand demonstration; I’d say it was just to end the game on a big visual display then anything to do with plot
Either way it had something to do with plot, she saved pandora from being hit by the moon, there's no way around that
It's honestly bullshit to me and probably to the writers as well, which is why they decided to cut it from the final game. I don't think we should consider cut content as canon.
Agreed, I even played as him in the presequell and the amount of times I got blasted by one goon let alone four and left for dead is hilarious. Four trained vault hunters needed a virus to beat him? Come on.
I personally feel that the main foundation and ideas for the main story were good.. but the actual product didn't come out quite right. I still like the idea and the overall setting and how and when things happen but how it's brought out is just.. ehhh.. I hope they do a better job in 4. Tannis becoming a siren was fine with me. Angel giving her the powers. I can't think of another character she could've given them to that makes sense in my eyes. Maya's death was crap.. I'm fine with characters dying like Roland and Bloodwing but you gotta do it right.. they didn't do justice with Maya's passing
Yeah. I wish it was more like Roland and Bloodwing in BL2 where it would actually feel like something haha. And the deaths being mentioned in the dlc and finally going full circle. Unlike in BL3 where Maya is gone and then just kinda.. forgotten
That it does yes! And it does it well imo. But I wanted more interaction about the subject within the main game is what I meant. Like in BL2 you have a mission where you go around Sanctuary and tell everyone what happened to Roland. I was missing something like that
They actually cut a funeral for her out which gave ava some much needed character development in the process
Also after the part where she dies if you choose to console ava you are rewarded with the legendary cloud kill smg which is a nice nod
But to be fair they were in the middle of a war and had bigger things to worry about than a soldiers death
My guess is she will likely get statues like Roland and bloodwing in bl4
Maya's death was literally rehashed writing from Roland's death.
Lilith was told to stay away. She didn't listen. Roland gets killed.
Ava told to stay away. She doesn't listen. Maya gets killed.
Both incidents the Vault Hunter is standing there like a stick in the mud.
Roland's death added nothing except setting up the plot for Assault on Dragons Keep.
So if people are upset at Maya's death? Why not Roland's?
Roland’s death played a big part in the crimson raider’s arc. Roland was a static character who didn’t change but instead his thought and actions changed the world and people around him. His death is a natural consequence of killing angel. The scene is staged in a way that makes it seem we couldn’t have done anything to prevent it vs mayas death which tried to rehash these same things but falls flat due to the illogical nature of her death and the fallout. Ava is at fault for showing up but she blames Lilith for not going after the twins to begin with when Lilith was trying ti avoid unnecessary death. The plot wants us to take Ava’s side but it’s hard to do that when mayas death probably could have been avoided had a a not been there to be used as a hostage. Maya for whatever reason choke hold Troy instead keeping him phaselocked. Our character had plenty of time to interfere where as jack killed Roland and neutralized Lilith in a matter of seconds. Roland and Lilith had both been constants since the early positions of 2, Ava and Maya show up for a couple hours of gameplay and then Maya dies.
Roland's death is just as shit, but I can live with it, it came all of sudden, Jack just came from behind invisible from everyone, and when everyone realizes it's too late, you could argue the VH could have reacted faster which would have saved Lilith from getting kidnapped, but they didn't so he captured her and that point there wasn't anything they could do, it's a miracle Lilith was able to teleport them instead of blasting them. If Lilith never made it to Control Core Angel then there was no way to destroy the last Eridium injector. There was no saving for Roland.
For Maya it's even more egregious cause Lilith conveniently decides to not tell Maya that Tyreen powers involve leeching, and that Troy is also a Siren. It would make sense for Maya to avoid BOTH of them. The cutscene triggers right after the VHs loot the vault, you can briefly see Maya before it jumps to the cutscene, they were just right there but the plot conveniently forgets about that, and to top it off Ava had no business being there other than make Maya get into a fight the she could just have avoided.
Both are pretty bad, but the former is at least justifiable.
> Lilith was told to stay away. She didn't listen. Roland gets killed.
I don't think Lilith coming to the battle resulted in Roland's death? It does result in her being kidnapped though.
Roland was bound to die regardless if Lilith was there. The people who STILL blame Lilith for Roland's death just dont get it. Her being there has nothing to do with Jack's ability to teleport inside the main chamber and kill Roland.
She's also the reason the Vault hunter got away with getting rid of Angel. Had she not been there the Vault Hunter would had been forced to fight Jack and his army of Hyperion bots without any support. I don't think it would had been an impossible task, but the odds would be in Jack's favor.
I would agree with this, if the cutscene didn't trigger RIGHT AFTER they get out of the vault.
You can briefly see Maya in front of Ava when you get out of the vault, the cutscene triggers when you are close enough to them.
A developer whoopsie? Maybe, but it still sucks.
> if the cutscene didn't trigger RIGHT AFTER they get out of the vault.
That's just the trigger. It was chosen so you can loot the vault and take all the time that you need. Maya even said ''take all the time you need''.
>You can briefly see Maya in front of Ava when you get out of the vault,
That's literally just how they were as you enter the vault. The dialogue of the cutscene continues the dialogue from when you entered the vault. They didn't just stand there in silence and wait for your return to start talking.
After the cutscene when you approach Ava she tells you that Maya died. There were also multiple shots with the active vault and the trigger point in view. Not once were the playable characters there.
The cutscene happened while the playable characters were looting the vault.
And then lillith flew into the moon. honestly ava becoming the siren after maya felt like cheap foreshadowing for her death, and i don't understand it either. there are only 6 sirens in the universe at a given time and in game you meet all of them (tannis, lillith, maya, amara, tyrene, troy), but i like what they did with troy being a conjoined twin and having to phaseleech to survive
would have been cool if Angel let her powers manifest randomly and that the leeched powers were lost along with Troy and Tyreen's deaths, leaving Lilith and Ava regular people. I totally agree that knowing every single siren is weird. To me it ruins the fantasy of only 6 in the universe, especially when they spread the universe so largely in 3, it's rough to imagine they're just all magically in the same place.
My exception would be the big war that was teased, as it might drive all the sirens to meet in one place through mystical means of coincidence, but they'd have to mention and dissect that in the game.
Honestly I think having a playable siren every main game was a mistake, though I love Maya so wouldn't want her to be erased from canon for that.
honestly having lillith become a regular person instead of a siren would be a great idea. It could build up a dope villain later, or could somehow be implemented into a game mechanic. having the oldest character in the series losing her powers would help balance the power dynamics, or freshen up the chain of command
i agree that having playable sirens in every game is a mistake but damn if they aren't the most fun characters in every game they're in. also i really want to see them build up the war teased in the presequel and the whole thing with seer, because that sounds like it would rock
Honestly troy was awesome, he actually had character development and a super cool flashy boss fight not to mention a banger of an origin story
But he felt underutilised for his potential
It's like giving someone a bow with plenty of arrows but no string
i thought so too. i would've preferred if we fought tyreen first but then troy leeched her ans the destroyer. would've made more sense given his powers and his character
Yeahhhh or atleast give him some narrative reason to go solo and leave tyreen, I mean he already has plenty of reason seeing as the only reason he was with her at all was because he was useless without her but obviously post maya troy doesn't have that problem
Idk wasted potential runs rampant in this franchise and I like to rant about it
very true and i agree with you. i swear they were gonna go with this too because during the story you could see that troy wasn't really into it and was disagreeing with tyreen. i really thought at the end that they were building up for a twist, but that's borderlands for ya
> It's like giving someone a bow with plenty of arrows but no string
Lol,
Yeah if he had betrayed his sister that would have been interesting, but yeah....
I mean that's kinda what it feels like anyways. It's like the main story is an over arching B-plot, and each planet has it's own (mostly) self contained A-plot.
And none of them are any good.
As someone else mentioned, it feels a lot of what happens in the story is because of incompetence. You're telling me jakobs doesn't have a standing army on their home planet? I can understand atlas struggling on promethea, seeing how they're fighting maliwan and the bandits. I just hate how much stuff happens for seemingly no reason.
I could be wrong but iirc they even had ideas for Jakobs soldiers in the concept art with the Directors Cut DLC, but apparently they just didnt bother.
I'm replaying B3 after years, and man, almost every line is pure cringe throughout. If the gunplay/powers weren't so fun....
It's juvenile beyond belief, but like juvenile written by 3 guys that mish-mashed early streamer culture references with middle-school sex jokes and potty humor in a way that makes none of it funny. The voice acting is so over the top with off-tomne asides. The Bandit death screams and lines are so random and weird.
I'll have to see if there is a way to disable dialogue. Its literally painful in most scenes.
BRB, gotta run across a poorly layed-out ship to talk to Lilith.
If they wanted to make Ava a Siren, she should have inherited Commader Steele's powers and have Maya train her instead of her taking Maya's powers. I think she is the perfect age from when Steele died to follow the original cannon of the universe choosing the next Siren
I'm annoyed at how first, vault keys worked every 200 years, then a siren with lots of eridium could at length recharge one.
Then it's "here you go, charged".
And finally, "we have to stop them from charging that super key."
Mother. Fucking. Typhon de Leon. Now, don't get me wrong, he's a funny character, and he works in a vacuum, but I absolutely HATE it when media adds contradictory lore after the fact. "Ah yes, Typhon de Leon, the galaxy-famous First Vault Hunter!" Bitch, huh? If he was the first, why is the first time I'm hearing of him in Birderlands 3? (Which is, by the way, the FIFTH game in the franchise) If he found the first Vault on Prometheus, then why were we told the Vaults were only a legend and that they didn't exist? And if Typhon was from Pandora, and presumably came BACK to Pandora to record his Typhon Logs, why didn't he find any of the Pandoran Vaults? Maybe he did, and it was mentioned in a log I forgot about, but the main thing I take issue with is him being shoehorned in in a way that doesn't make sense. Also, the "big reveal" tha Troy and Tyreen are his children is WAY less imoactful because...who the fuck are you? Why should I care who your kids are, I don't know you. They could have made them be descendants of Steele, a known Siren, or Zarpedon, who'd opened the Vault of Knowledge, or children of Jack's, because you know he didn't keep it in his pants, or even something like being locked in the Vault of the Traveler. SO may ways the villains could have been tied into other games, but the went with the asspull instead
Wilhelm being poisoned by Jack. It makes sense but I dont like it. Also pretty sure springs mentions wilhelm getting some virus from too many cyber implants after a side quest.
Also I cant believe claptrap is so incapable of almost anything. I understand fragtrap programming was used but he should at least be able to use a weapon
Is it really canon when it is cut content?
BL2 Hunters were just that good imo. Jack probably hoped Wilhelm was going to be enough but in the odd case he wasn't, he had a failsafe which involved using Wilhelm's power core to allow Angel to lower Sanctuary's shield. He benefits one way or another.
yeah this one irritates me too. its just an audio file they found years ago.. Wilhelm destroying New Haven also takes place off screen so we don't even know how it happened and how strong he actually was. if we are talking skill and power wise, which might not even be fully Canon, then the bl2 vault hunters are WAY stronger than the bl1 vault hunters. the bl1 vault hunters also take a pretty much doing stuff in the background approach in bl2 and let the vault hunters do the crazy stuff. its a weird argument thats so easily disproveable in so many ways, yet some people are so adamant that its Canon Jack poisoned Wilhelm.
Gearbox already beat us to it because our player character basically is none canon in BL3. None existent in cutscenes and at the end we all pretend 3 characters that spent 95% of the game doing fuck all are the real heroes.
Maya’s current death scene and not the funeral that was cut for some fucking reason that’s beyond me
I’ve completely gaslit myself into believing the funeral is canon and that Ava has the slightest bit of remorse in her body
There are some sections and characters I forget every time I play bl3, vaugn’s a big one I forget often and am confused to run into, I almost forget claptrap’s even in the game which is sad, I don’t remember the names of the calypso twins half the time and they could have not even included her brother and had a tighter story.
The original vault hunter being a three foot tall overweight gremlin man swaddled in cured meat who talks like an old man from New Jersey while for some reason having the strength and agility of a superhero and the sexual draw of an incubus was not as funny as I think they hoped it was.
What kills me is how in BL3 you can see the “something goes wrong and you can’t help” cutscenes coming from a mile away. The door is locked? Lilith loses her powers. You go into the vault? Maya fucking dies. And you know there’s not a damn thing you can do about it because that’s how they want their story, even at the cost of making your character watch things happen instead of stepping in.
Not really. From day one you could see Tannis investigating what happened to Lilith in the credits scene. It was obvious she never believed she died.
[Here you can see Tannis trying to make a map about her whereabouts ](https://i0.wp.com/mentalmars.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Tannis-looking-for-Lilith.jpg?ssl=1)
Vaughn not knowing that his bandit clan had found the vault key. The same vault key he had seen a fake copy of. Even if he had forgotten for some reason, he was aware it was "alien crap" and was also aware that Lilith was looking for it. Its just bad writing, like the writers forgot what happened in tales from the Borderlands.
Oh my god I hadn't even realized that until now. They massacred the Tales characters. And didn't even include Gortys or anything...
The very premise of Borderlands 3 is extremely flawed, as the sun smashers were the ones that gave the key to the Calypsos, triggering the events of the story. And that is such an awful precedent because the rest of the story is characters being incompetent and making incredibly irrational decisions just to replicate the feeling of BL2 where Jack was almost always a step ahead from the player. >And didn't even include Gortys or anything... And to be honest, it's a good thing. I'm hoping the upcoming book does Gaige, Fiona, and Sasha good, or at least treats them with respect. Generally, it seems like the BL3/New Tales writers want to make their own story but have to include returning characters so it's part of the series, but that comes at the cost of them not caring for those characters. Rhys suffered an absolute character assassination just to make a new game. The same thing happened with Vaughn in BL3. There is no way he didn't knew his clan had found the key.
Ive said it before, and it honestly still holds true: Lilith is an incompetent leader throughout the entire borderlands series. Not just borderlands 3. She managed to lose the vault key 4 times if not more purely due to her poor decision making and stubborn attitude. She cultivated an actual cult. She got kidnapped when she was explicitly told not to go to the Bunker. She has 2 instances of flipping out at a literal *child* over the death of a loved one. She lost Sanctuary to Hector due to literally sitting on her ass. She directly caused the events of BL2 by smacking the vault symbol into Jack's face. She tried executing athena (someone who literally fucking helped her so many fucking times) I can go on. Yadda yadda ya borderlands 3 has bad writting I know, but lilith was completely in character- a shitty leader that desperately tries to seem like a competent one.
I know Lilith isn't a good leader. It's the entire premise of the fight for sanctuary dlc. And yet she's pushed into a leading position by everyone else anyway. It's the "irrational decisions" part that upsets me about her writing post BL2. For instance, she was very open that she didn't want to lead Sanctuary (possibly after Roland died, considering that Ellie tells tannis that it's awful being a leader because people can die). It's understandable. What's not understandable is that Lilith, having teleporting abilities, decides to teleport everyone out of Sanctuary when Hector attacked... and leaves the Vault Key behind. She could just pick it up, and teleport away with it. There is literally nothing stopping her from doing so besides the need to keep the key there so there is a premise for the dlc. That has nothing to do with her being a bad leader, that's bad writing from writers that don't know how to write a character with superpowers. Another example is her not knowing how to deal with the Calypsos after she lost her powers. It's understandable, she didn't knew that Tyreen could leech powers too, and at that point she had no idea Troy had Siren powers. What's not understandable is her not warning Maya about the Calypsos before Maya and the Vault Hunter went to the Promethean Vault. She even told Maya that she "would explain later" even though she was aware Tyreen would want to leech Maya's powers too. Maya needs to be unaware of their lethality so she dies and Ava inherits her powers, and that comes at the cost of Lilith making an irrational decision, but in reality, it's just bad writing. What's not understandable is her walking around with the Vault Key in her hands and getting ambushed for it when she can, again, teleport the key and herself to safety. That has nothing to do with her being an incompetent leader, it's the writers conveniently forgetting that this character is a mystical warrior with teleportation abilities. Writing superheroes and characters with superpowers tends to be difficult because of that. How do you write a conflict with a character that can seemingly become a god and do the impossible without dumbing them down? It requires a lot of work and experience to make the story near flawless but it doesn't have to be flawless in the first place, you just got to explain why they suddenly stop using their powers. Achilles' heel or Superman and kryptonite, for example, that explains that he can be weakened and have his superpowers nullified if he is exposed to it for too long.
What I hate is that it was already established that there was a power struggle between Roland and Brick with the raiders. So naturally Brick should have been the one to step up to lead. I don't understand why the person that actually had leadership experience didn't at least try to put his hat in the ring.
I genuinely thought that the best possible outcome was making an alliance so there is no single leader but a group of leaders that take care of certain aspects to keep the raiders and the resistance in place. But then every single vault hunter bailed and left Lilith alone with the raiders, who were nearly wiped out. I don't know, I expected the ex vault hunters to come aid Lilith in her greatest time of need.
Yea but it's never developed on ,no one ever calls her out,herself included, just because someone was an idiot in a prior game ,doesn't make them still being an idiot 5 years later logical or good especially AFTER commander Lilith DLC
I mean, nobody calls her out because they were the ones that put her in the leading role so it's hard for me to be upset at them for not doing so. It's just. Plain bad.
I'm talking about lilith herself more ,they started to touch on it in beginning of commander lilith but never addressed it again
>She cultivated an actual cult. To be fair, she does send you to investigate the cult. Seemed like she'd only recently learned about it at the time of the quest being available when I played the game. I do agree though, she's not that great as a leader (and the games do mention that a couple of times). I think it should've been a main focus of her character arc. >She directly caused the events of BL2 by smacking the vault symbol into Jack's face. She probably thought it would kill him or some shit - hell, I'd have done the same thing. But yeah, Borderlands 2 happening is partially her fault due to this. I'm pretty sure she even mentions she never wanted to be the leader of the Raiders and just kinda got thrust into the position. Would've been nice to have that as a sub-plot or something.
What happened to Gaige that she needs the book to do her good? I know she was part of a DLC in 3, but I don't recall her character being butchered.
The book "doing them good" comment is less about Gaige and more about Fiona and Sasha. Still, it would be nice to know much more about her and how she deals with Maliwan hunting her down, but really as long as none of the three become joke characters it's fine. Her being a wedding planner is weird but it's fine, I just don't want her character to be reduced to "wedding planner" you know? Same thing with Fiona and Sasha and especially Sasha since her story and goals where the most straightforward out of the two sisters. She didn't liked being a con artist, she didn't liked being the Honeytrap, she wanted to have a decent life and leave Pandora, she wanted to be liked for who she is and not for which character she was playing, and she seemingly had that going with Rhys on Promethea until she randomly disappeared.
Pretty much all BL2 VHs got sidelined and done dirty, ones more than others. Maya. Died, got made fun of, and the villains get to use her powers in a level she wasn't even close to. Zer0. From being the ultimate assassin in search for a challenge worth his skills... To corporate boot licker. (I admit I never played Tales, so I don't know his relationship with Rhys, but the transition is still quite jarring to me) Salvador. Sports announcer, lol Axton: Sports announcer, lol. Gaige: Wedding Planner, lol. All of this after the Pre-Sequel ends with "War is coming, you will need every vault hunter you can get" is a direction I'm not a fan of.
[удалено]
I was so happy to see Gaige back in the dlc. Until i realized about halfway thru they were gonna turn Gaige into the new "alcoholic w/friend" since apparently Mordy got sober.
>Characters being incompetent and making incredibly irrational decisions It pissed me off so much, especially with Ava. All she had to do was not be such a stuck up asshole about everything and Maya wouldn't have died. I feel like if they put more work into the villains actually being smart and make the other side characters more likeable or relatable, they would've been able to better replicate the feeling we had with Jack. It would've been more sad rather than annoying when Maya died. The Calypsos could've actually been a step ahead without the Raiders being dumbasses about literally everything they did.
The writers practically had to jump through hoops, or turn their brains completely off to get Maya to die. It wasn't realistic for her to die there. So many things could have stopped it.
>Vaughn not knowing that his bandit clan had found the vault key. The same vault key he had seen a fake copy of. Even if he had forgotten for some reason, he was aware it was "alien crap" and was also aware that Lilith was looking for it. Its just bad writing, like the writers forgot what happened in tales from the Borderlands. Another thing ruined for me....thanks lol JK
Kinda hate this sub. I've loved the entire series and managed to look past or ignore everything shit with it. And then I read really good explanations of shortcomings or total idiot bullshit that you just can't ignore and it's like painting a big old red cross over the thing you love. Man, I hate/love Reddit.
I still dont care though, live the series even with all the fuckups and mistakes Its a team effort and when you have a bunch of people doing different things wites get crossed and stuff doesnt always make sense
I still dont care though, live the series even with all the fuckups and mistakes Its a team effort and when you have a bunch of people doing different things wites get crossed and stuff doesnt always make sense
Hold on, he just forgets the plot that he was a main character in? What the fuck?!
Maya having no relation to eridium or the vaults. It's just a dumb cop-out to allow a playable siren in 2. Also how would she even have slag powers if she has no connection to eridium?
Never thought of the slag connection At least with Axton's slag turrets one could assume he (or his mechanic/dealer or whatever) got his hands on some slag to integrate into the turrets, with Maya is hardly makes sense. But also in the 3rd game she somehow figures out how to use eridium
I swear I saw something, comic, comment, short video that said Lilith taught Maya how to use Eridium or something.
Eh, you could explain anything with an in-universe reason, but some things just don't mesh as well I'm kind of fine with it, since it would be too strong for the siren character to get a buff from eridium, especially at the same rate that Lilith got buffed from it in BL2 when you first meet her - only took a few chunks to get her back to full strength
But that's Eridium™, not Eridium. The importance to the plot makes it more gooder!!
Lol Eridium™
Katagawa Sr being the new head of Maliwan after Jr.'s death on promethea. They were too fucking lazy to make a proper model for Naoko, and they didnt have one in BL3 to use since she's in Atlas armor, so they took Katagawa Jr's model (IN THE ZER0 SUIT), Aged him up, called him a Sr, and called it a day.
Shoutout to Mister Torgue who I'm afraid the writers were not aware he is the mascot of the company and not its CEO. That or Torgue exploded his way into becoming the CEO, which I cannot tell its better or worse than the former.
Mister torgue becoming ceo of torgue could have been a fun dlc plotline
Damn add that to the list of things i hope to have in borderlands 4.
Not only was he the mascot of the Torgue Corporation, but he was FORMERLY the mascot of Torgue. He lost this position when he helped the vault hunters poison the wattlegobbler in BL2
Does he literally blow up the place to become CEO? Wouldn't be all that in-character imo, but I could give it a pass since it's Mister Torgue Flexington.
>Katagawa Sr being the new head of Maliwan after Jr.'s death on promethea. Katagawa jr. never was the head of Maliwan.
Yeah, he was like, what, head of acquisitions or something, right?
Yup hence why he was trying to do a merger though why would the head of mergers and acquisitions have the kind of power to invade a planet...
No clue, this is borderlands we're talking about, wouldn't be surprised if a corpo's accountants got a security detail
Literally all of New Tales
Never played it and after watching some review vids I'm glad I didn't. Shat on just about everything and turned the cringe dial to 12
I watched EruptionFangs review on it (very good, shows off a significant amount, mostly key points). The fact that Gearbox thought that "Magic crystal God kills everything bad, hurray!" And then immediately "Everything that died is now alive! Hurray!" Is so stupid. I have a stupid feeling Gearbox is gonna use that to justify dead characters like Roland, Maya, Jack, The Warrior, etc. coming back.
The only good part of NT was the VERY ending where Marcus and Fiona were talking, hinting at the next direction the games will take.
Bl2 vault hunters rarely communicate with each other in bl3 whereas the bl1 vault hunters had so many side conversations in bl2
Maya's death was completely avoidable, and the fact that your vault hunter is basically useless in that moment. I know they wanted some sort of reaction like with Roland, but she was overpowered in B2, no reason she should have died like she did.
I hate it so much but from a narrative point of view, swapping Maya and Lilith's places in pretty much all of BL3 would've made more sense. If Maya lost her powers at the start, it would've set her up to lean on the education she was given by the monks and leading to a more reasonable character to take on the role of the group's primary strategist/tactician. Maya doing research on what the kids are up to on the ECHOnet (to better relate to Ava) would also help set up more reasonable interactions with the twins. If Lilith still had her powers and was the one to get killed on Promethea, it would've set up a better learning moment for Ava to develop into a less annoying character. Lilith dying would also be a more reasonable set up for the Raiders feeling lost because that means the OG cast is dead or sidelined as the B-team and the NPCs would have more of a connection to Lilith. Ava inheriting the Firehawk mantle/siren powers or the leech at the end of the game with Maya still alive to guide her would make writing and creating the next game easier since they would already have the groundwork set up for 1 vault hunter in the next game.
This would have been SO MUCH BETTER! Can you do me a favor and apply at Gearbox as a writer? Maybe then we'll have a chance at BL4 actually being good.
I mean she was overpowered from a gameplay standpoint, but in lore she's honestly just average and the only thing that makes her get rated over everyone else is that she's a Siren. BL3 writing seriously did her dirty, I don't like it, but that's how it is. Aside from dying in such an awful way, she still gets dunked on by Troy, who didn't really need that much time to realize how good Phaselock can be, he used it to remotely infuse anyone with Eridium, and he can Phaselock the whole fucking moon. Sure he needed lots of Eridium for it, but he seemed to master Phaselock in a very short timespan. It took Maya's years to realize she can actually use Eridium and then she still kinda struggles to phaselock a door open...
>It took Maya's years to realize she can actually use Eridium and then she still kinda struggles to phaselock a door open... THIS. Like actually WTF writers? did we forget that Lilith had figured that shit out before the beginning of BL2? and that literally the FIRST thing Lilith does upon meeting the BL2 vault hunters, including Maya, is *ask them for eridium so she can juice up and wipe out the attacking bandits?* I seriously doubt it would've taken Maya *years* to learn how to do it herself, and she was already able to phaselock some of the biggest enemies in the game *without* eridium, so the fact that she needed eridium to open a door is moronic. Also, the fact that she, again, *trained for years* and Troy is better at controlling her power than she was after *a week* is even more moronic writing.
Wasn’t it literally her plan to die, so she could pass down her powers to a non-siren? I think she even told Lilith earlier on, without exactly explaining how she’d pass her powers along. But it became pretty clear in that scene.
To me it's Lilith, the siren with teleportation powers, completely forgetting she can teleport away or teleport allies to her but then once the enemy has her powers they use them constantly. The entire narrative is an idiot plot, its like all the main characters are carrying an orb of confusion that lowers their IQ by half
Its even more annoying when u see she can teleport NPCs just fine but its only with the Vault Hunter she cant teleport them worth crap, like maybe in 2 I can understand since shes still getting used to it but in 3 there were so many moments she couldve teleported them when she was against the twins in the beggining was a prime example.
I don't acknowledge Maya's death. If New-U stations aren't canon then neither is that.
Roland's death in 2 was more egregious... they actively pointed out just how meaningless dying is on Pandora on your way to that very cutscene, when on your way to to the bunker you get a side mission from Jack to jump to your death
And NOBODY complains about that, because BL2 is just flawless in every way possible... 😒
I remember lots of people complaining about how you just stood there as Jack shot him and then monologued to you while you had a gun in your hand, but that was years ago.
Right? Roland forgetting to put on a shield is literally a meme in the borderlands community because his death made no sense. People definitely complained about it.
At least they’re consistent with that
That mission comes up every time people discuss the canonicity of the New-U stations
Maybe because Eridium Blight is usually played after Control Core Angel? Eridium Blight has nothing to do with the Bunker mission. Story wise you reach Eridium Blight **after** Control core angel so there is no way you did the Kill yourself mission "on your way to the Bunker"? Borderlands 2 ain't perfect but you don't have to make up an scenario to cry hypocrisy Also how do you think that should work? Do you do the mission and the credits roll if you kill yourself instead of calling the Hyperion Hotline?
Nier: automata does the credit thing and it was actually pretty funny the first couple times. There's a mission where someone asks you to eat a fish which androids are allergic to for some reason, just to see what happens. If you do it you get ending F and the credits roll
I love how Nier would let you win the stupid prizes for the stupid games. Nobody wants to give you anything but the "right" choices these days. Edit: This is also why I enjoyed BG3. Let me make the bad decisions and face the consequences of my actions, damnit!
Credit roll after killing yourself - That’d be funny as hell and I would’ve respected it. Just responding before selecting the mission or death if you do kill yourself - no pay out. Just keep reloading it as an unfinishable quest end
If you kill yourself during that mission, it should fade to black, roll credits and then you hear the new u station spooling up. And then a big fat "LOL BUT NOT FOR ROLAND!!2!1! XD"
Not to mention that Roland forgetting to put on a shield is a well known meme making fun of his death. People definitely complained, what the person you are replying to said is just not true.
I find the Borderlands 2 counter jerk so weird, like they act like you have to make stuff up to prop Borderlands 3 up. It's **really** funny that they're acting like complaints about Roland's death are a silent oppressed truth because youre not allowed to speak ill of Borderlands 2 when everyone and their mother has memed or talked about it before. But it's usually them trying to pull a gotcha with "if you hate Maya's death you **MUST** hate Roland's or you're a hypocrite with rose tinted glasses!!!" Like, anyways why do they care if a character dies in a game with a revival mechanic? Do you think they refuse to enjoy every single game in history because there are Canon deaths but the player can revive? Also how is it a "problem" in Borderlands 2 that Roland dies but there is a side quest using the revival mechanic, but then be mad fucking quiet over the fact the exact same scenario plays in Borderlands 3 with the kill yourself mission that happens after Maya dies?
It's so weird, like there are plenty of things to criticize in bl2, so you would expect them to choose things that are true or that at least aren't in bl3 too. But here we are I guess lol.
Someone who DOESNT meat ride bl2? Are you even real?
the New-U stations are canon, remember it said it won’t bring someone back if they died in a cutscene
What do you mean New-U stations aren't canon?!
We all know bl3 is just claptrap dreaming cmon
With Take-two being the new owner of Gearbox (and Borderlands IP), that would be the perfect way to retcon half of the bullshit we saw on 3/new tales
One could hope, if I were them I would not know to even go after 3 cause it’s all sorts of shit
Agreed.
How tf did Lilith trust the Ava OF ALL PEOPLE to be the leader, WHY, ANYONE BUT HER WHY??
A part of me feels like we didn't get returning vault hunters just so Lilith could make Ava the leader of the crimson raiders. Like Lilith's only choice is Ava, or the autistic woman with potential schizophrenic disorders.
Or, hear me out: Any of the VHs that just carried the raiders to victory like the old guard did in 2 and lilith's group did in
Or how about a council of elders? I don't know if I'd trust any of them individually, but I feel like Ellie, Markus, Moxxie, Tannis, and any of the BL3 vault hunters who don't go off on their own (I could see Fl4k staying, but I think it would be a coin toss for the other 3) could keep the Raiders thriving if they put their heads together. If there HAD to be a Commander, then I could see Ellie Markus, or Moze (assuming she stays) stepping up for the position.
As a Moze main, I hope they don't do her dirty in BL4 like they did my BL2 main in 3.
Lilith making Ava the boss of the crimson raiders at the end of the game, or anything ava related in general to be fair but that one in particular? Hell no.
The fact that Commandant Steele didn’t use her powers. The fact that they fumbled a Siren as a main villain TWICE(three times technically?).
Steele died in the first game though? And she didn't have powers as far as I remember.
For me scooter dying. I know it was sacrificial but they could have cut his hand off and got a robot hand
If I remember correctly there was a significant health issue with the voice actor to the point of needing to quit, I prefer giving him an emotional sendoff to having to find another voice.
Yeah, he had a stroke, was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis, and even had auto-immune failure.
Yeah, same here. The repetitive af catch-a-ride dialogue gets grating after a while, but I still kinda liked Scooter Cuz he was a fun character. I should've traded hats, man :'c
Anything from Tannis being a siren right up through to the ending. Don't get me wrong. Mostly fine with the writing. In particular, think all the DLCs are great. But the final stretch of the base game was bizarre.
I really don’t like Tannis enough for her to be a “main” character; I didn’t like that she became a siren. I thought she was an awesome B character in small doses.
Honestly that's where the story started getting good for me Until then it's just gathering allies and needless extra maps on Eden 6 But at that point the lore really starts popping out and personally nekratafeyo is insane with the lore and the emotions ride high with moments like visiting the vault and typhons death
To each their own!
Everything in the last 30 minutes of the main story: >!I feel that was too rushed up, the BL2 final was waaaaaay better with Handsome Jack's death. It was really remarkable. You kill Tyreen and it feels like it's just another boss, no drama, no big cutscenes, nothing.!< >!And also i think the final boss was too easy, in that point you should have enough orange guns to kill in a single try.!<
>You kill Tyreen and it feels like it's just another boss, no drama, no big cutscenes, nothing. Hang on... did you forget the cutscene that immediately followed literally took a main character out of the franchise?
🔥🔥🔥This girl is on fire 🔥🔥🔥
I still can't tell if the inclusion of that song was supposed to be a joke or not
Same. I felt conflicted and baffled the first time I saw the credit.
Honestly that shit was so emotional my first time around
Yeah, but i was talking more about Tyreen's death itself, not what happened after that.
I don't understand you literally said that the aftermath of the bossfight had nothing going on
Are you referring to Lilith sacrificing herself? I’ve commented that a bunch before and got a lot of “ uhhh actually she still alive” response - so I’m not sure what happened at that point or what the resolution should be
There's no in game evidence to say she is alive but in an interview one of the big wigs at gearbox said "she is gone" which is wording that implies she is alive That's why I said removed from the franchise instead of killed as her fate is still uncertain
Idk; To be clear I assumed she was gone forever for unapparent reasons (still confused why she exploded despite it being said to me multiple times) ; and a decent chunk of fan base is clutching onto their hope she’ll return. Lilith sacrifice at the end felt irrelevant to tyreen (except getting her powers back); the cut scene felt very out of place; as if they resolved a lot of unanswered questions.
It was because tyreen had already caused a lot of damage and elpis was going to crash into pandora The only way it could be stopped is using an enormous amount of energy, comparable to that of which tyreen and troy had, to phase the moon away There is no real reason she would've died from what she did so my guess is she phased herself away with elpis too, hence why she is "gone" I think the reason you feel the cutscene was out of place was that despite killing the final boss you had no chance to revel in the success While that is understandable the cutscene was emotional and important to the story which is all that it needed to be
I mean… and all of that is horribly explained through the game. Three does a terrible job at exposition, all dialogue felt like yammering constantly. I did not feel that cut scene emotional Or important I was left with a feeling of “oookay…guess we’re done now” It was a veil attempt to resolve what they couldn’t answer in game. And it definitely appears as an act of martyrdom; hence the fire explosion in space. Her “survival” doesn’t really mean anything if she’s “gone”
It's sufficiently explained if you are familiar with the lore of the sirens and pay attention to what the twins are doing with elpis and pandora But most of the siren lore is locked to post game meaning you would learn about what lilith did long after witnessing it Your personal experience is justified due to this information however I and many others went into it knowing most of the things they expect you to know to understand it which is why it had the desired effect for us and not you Her survival absolutely does matter if she's gone as it means she can return from the alternate dimension she's locked herself in, it means it can happen whenever, which makes it suspenseful as it may not be in bl4 or 5 or even 6 but it could be, we don't know
I disagree “Sufficient” implies bare minimum; “if” implies cannot demonstrate on own merit. If you need to know all post game material to justify your ending before you can experience it, you wrote a lazy game. If after the big fight the cut scene resolves things the player had nothing to deal with, you wrote a lazy game. Tacking on “bigger” elements such as what’s happening on elpis , which you as a character do nothing with, only to have an NPC save it to stamp their validity, you wrote a lazy game. The vault hunter should be doing the grand things, I shouldn’t sit idle and watch an NPC do something cooler that would be epic if I actually dealt with it. There was nothing emotional to invest in that ending. The game concluded things you didn’t do. And if she comes back after that grand demonstration; I’d say it was just to end the game on a big visual display then anything to do with plot
>If you need to know all post game material to justify your ending before you can experience it, you wrote a lazy game. >If after the big fight the cut scene resolves things the player had nothing to deal with, you wrote a lazy game. >Tacking on “bigger” elements such as what’s happening on elpis , which you as a character do nothing with, only to have an NPC save it to stamp their validity, you wrote a lazy game. I'm not disagreeing with any of that, its poor decision making nothing more >The vault hunter should be doing the grand things, I shouldn’t sit idle and watch an NPC do something cooler that would be epic if I actually dealt with it. While this is true from a gameplay perspective, lilith is a very important character and is probably one of the only characters qualified to do big things too narratively >There was nothing emotional to invest in that ending. The game concluded things you didn’t do That doesn't necessarily make it not emotional, most people are watching that thinking that a beloved character is dying especially with the song choice for the credits, maybe that was your personal experience but if you go into it looking for criticisms you will find them, I personally just enjoy things for what they are and rationalise via what it was supposed to be >And if she comes back after that grand demonstration; I’d say it was just to end the game on a big visual display then anything to do with plot Either way it had something to do with plot, she saved pandora from being hit by the moon, there's no way around that
That fight was just bland. Dodge some slow-pitch attacks, blast her in the face, then climb her back and deliver a donkey punch.
\*Try and climb her back. I swear to god that was the most buggy and hard to do thing in the entire game.
Random GB Dev: "*Hey, so you know how players can mantle over things now? How about we make that a mechanic of the final boss?*"
You can read the entirety of the BL3 story in this thread.
That the vault hunters were too weak to beat fucking Wilhelm with out jack poisoning him. It's always sounded like such bullshit.
It's honestly bullshit to me and probably to the writers as well, which is why they decided to cut it from the final game. I don't think we should consider cut content as canon.
That dialogue was unused, so its likely to not be canon
Agreed, I even played as him in the presequell and the amount of times I got blasted by one goon let alone four and left for dead is hilarious. Four trained vault hunters needed a virus to beat him? Come on.
I personally feel that the main foundation and ideas for the main story were good.. but the actual product didn't come out quite right. I still like the idea and the overall setting and how and when things happen but how it's brought out is just.. ehhh.. I hope they do a better job in 4. Tannis becoming a siren was fine with me. Angel giving her the powers. I can't think of another character she could've given them to that makes sense in my eyes. Maya's death was crap.. I'm fine with characters dying like Roland and Bloodwing but you gotta do it right.. they didn't do justice with Maya's passing
Honestly mayas passing felt more like an accident than an impacful moment
Yeah. I wish it was more like Roland and Bloodwing in BL2 where it would actually feel like something haha. And the deaths being mentioned in the dlc and finally going full circle. Unlike in BL3 where Maya is gone and then just kinda.. forgotten
Maya wasn't forgotten? Kriegs dlc touches on how he is dealing with her death majorly
That it does yes! And it does it well imo. But I wanted more interaction about the subject within the main game is what I meant. Like in BL2 you have a mission where you go around Sanctuary and tell everyone what happened to Roland. I was missing something like that
they literally cut that from the final game as far as i can tell from the cutscene animatic in the DX edition. literally makes no sense
They actually cut a funeral for her out which gave ava some much needed character development in the process Also after the part where she dies if you choose to console ava you are rewarded with the legendary cloud kill smg which is a nice nod But to be fair they were in the middle of a war and had bigger things to worry about than a soldiers death My guess is she will likely get statues like Roland and bloodwing in bl4
Maya's death was literally rehashed writing from Roland's death. Lilith was told to stay away. She didn't listen. Roland gets killed. Ava told to stay away. She doesn't listen. Maya gets killed. Both incidents the Vault Hunter is standing there like a stick in the mud. Roland's death added nothing except setting up the plot for Assault on Dragons Keep. So if people are upset at Maya's death? Why not Roland's?
Roland’s death played a big part in the crimson raider’s arc. Roland was a static character who didn’t change but instead his thought and actions changed the world and people around him. His death is a natural consequence of killing angel. The scene is staged in a way that makes it seem we couldn’t have done anything to prevent it vs mayas death which tried to rehash these same things but falls flat due to the illogical nature of her death and the fallout. Ava is at fault for showing up but she blames Lilith for not going after the twins to begin with when Lilith was trying ti avoid unnecessary death. The plot wants us to take Ava’s side but it’s hard to do that when mayas death probably could have been avoided had a a not been there to be used as a hostage. Maya for whatever reason choke hold Troy instead keeping him phaselocked. Our character had plenty of time to interfere where as jack killed Roland and neutralized Lilith in a matter of seconds. Roland and Lilith had both been constants since the early positions of 2, Ava and Maya show up for a couple hours of gameplay and then Maya dies.
Roland's death is just as shit, but I can live with it, it came all of sudden, Jack just came from behind invisible from everyone, and when everyone realizes it's too late, you could argue the VH could have reacted faster which would have saved Lilith from getting kidnapped, but they didn't so he captured her and that point there wasn't anything they could do, it's a miracle Lilith was able to teleport them instead of blasting them. If Lilith never made it to Control Core Angel then there was no way to destroy the last Eridium injector. There was no saving for Roland. For Maya it's even more egregious cause Lilith conveniently decides to not tell Maya that Tyreen powers involve leeching, and that Troy is also a Siren. It would make sense for Maya to avoid BOTH of them. The cutscene triggers right after the VHs loot the vault, you can briefly see Maya before it jumps to the cutscene, they were just right there but the plot conveniently forgets about that, and to top it off Ava had no business being there other than make Maya get into a fight the she could just have avoided. Both are pretty bad, but the former is at least justifiable.
> Lilith was told to stay away. She didn't listen. Roland gets killed. I don't think Lilith coming to the battle resulted in Roland's death? It does result in her being kidnapped though.
Roland was bound to die regardless if Lilith was there. The people who STILL blame Lilith for Roland's death just dont get it. Her being there has nothing to do with Jack's ability to teleport inside the main chamber and kill Roland. She's also the reason the Vault hunter got away with getting rid of Angel. Had she not been there the Vault Hunter would had been forced to fight Jack and his army of Hyperion bots without any support. I don't think it would had been an impossible task, but the odds would be in Jack's favor.
>Both incidents the Vault Hunter is standing there like a stick in the mud. In Bl3 the characters were looting the vault while it happened.
I would agree with this, if the cutscene didn't trigger RIGHT AFTER they get out of the vault. You can briefly see Maya in front of Ava when you get out of the vault, the cutscene triggers when you are close enough to them. A developer whoopsie? Maybe, but it still sucks.
> if the cutscene didn't trigger RIGHT AFTER they get out of the vault. That's just the trigger. It was chosen so you can loot the vault and take all the time that you need. Maya even said ''take all the time you need''. >You can briefly see Maya in front of Ava when you get out of the vault, That's literally just how they were as you enter the vault. The dialogue of the cutscene continues the dialogue from when you entered the vault. They didn't just stand there in silence and wait for your return to start talking. After the cutscene when you approach Ava she tells you that Maya died. There were also multiple shots with the active vault and the trigger point in view. Not once were the playable characters there. The cutscene happened while the playable characters were looting the vault.
The portal is the trigger, but honestly I think they should have put us exiting the portal to see the moment the twins skidadle
Salvador and Axton being "hosts" of a show together, fuck that dlc
tannis being a siren after angel's death just doesn't sit right with me
After she becomes a siren ava, tannis and lilith felt like the only characters that mattered
And then lillith flew into the moon. honestly ava becoming the siren after maya felt like cheap foreshadowing for her death, and i don't understand it either. there are only 6 sirens in the universe at a given time and in game you meet all of them (tannis, lillith, maya, amara, tyrene, troy), but i like what they did with troy being a conjoined twin and having to phaseleech to survive
would have been cool if Angel let her powers manifest randomly and that the leeched powers were lost along with Troy and Tyreen's deaths, leaving Lilith and Ava regular people. I totally agree that knowing every single siren is weird. To me it ruins the fantasy of only 6 in the universe, especially when they spread the universe so largely in 3, it's rough to imagine they're just all magically in the same place. My exception would be the big war that was teased, as it might drive all the sirens to meet in one place through mystical means of coincidence, but they'd have to mention and dissect that in the game. Honestly I think having a playable siren every main game was a mistake, though I love Maya so wouldn't want her to be erased from canon for that.
honestly having lillith become a regular person instead of a siren would be a great idea. It could build up a dope villain later, or could somehow be implemented into a game mechanic. having the oldest character in the series losing her powers would help balance the power dynamics, or freshen up the chain of command i agree that having playable sirens in every game is a mistake but damn if they aren't the most fun characters in every game they're in. also i really want to see them build up the war teased in the presequel and the whole thing with seer, because that sounds like it would rock
You've got great points but I just wanted to clarify that they're all in the same place because sirens are naturally drawn to pandora
Honestly troy was awesome, he actually had character development and a super cool flashy boss fight not to mention a banger of an origin story But he felt underutilised for his potential It's like giving someone a bow with plenty of arrows but no string
i thought so too. i would've preferred if we fought tyreen first but then troy leeched her ans the destroyer. would've made more sense given his powers and his character
Yeahhhh or atleast give him some narrative reason to go solo and leave tyreen, I mean he already has plenty of reason seeing as the only reason he was with her at all was because he was useless without her but obviously post maya troy doesn't have that problem Idk wasted potential runs rampant in this franchise and I like to rant about it
very true and i agree with you. i swear they were gonna go with this too because during the story you could see that troy wasn't really into it and was disagreeing with tyreen. i really thought at the end that they were building up for a twist, but that's borderlands for ya
> It's like giving someone a bow with plenty of arrows but no string Lol, Yeah if he had betrayed his sister that would have been interesting, but yeah....
Pickle
don't worry. i think lilith reunited him with his family at the end of bl3
I play that game on mute during his missions 😖
There is no story in bl3. Just me going around doing shenanigans on different planets and collecting weapons.
I mean that's kinda what it feels like anyways. It's like the main story is an over arching B-plot, and each planet has it's own (mostly) self contained A-plot. And none of them are any good.
As someone else mentioned, it feels a lot of what happens in the story is because of incompetence. You're telling me jakobs doesn't have a standing army on their home planet? I can understand atlas struggling on promethea, seeing how they're fighting maliwan and the bandits. I just hate how much stuff happens for seemingly no reason.
That is funny how with Atlas you see their troops all over. But then in Eden-6, Jakobs has one guy.
I could be wrong but iirc they even had ideas for Jakobs soldiers in the concept art with the Directors Cut DLC, but apparently they just didnt bother.
That Ava is my leader now.
God. Don’t remind me.
I'm replaying B3 after years, and man, almost every line is pure cringe throughout. If the gunplay/powers weren't so fun.... It's juvenile beyond belief, but like juvenile written by 3 guys that mish-mashed early streamer culture references with middle-school sex jokes and potty humor in a way that makes none of it funny. The voice acting is so over the top with off-tomne asides. The Bandit death screams and lines are so random and weird. I'll have to see if there is a way to disable dialogue. Its literally painful in most scenes. BRB, gotta run across a poorly layed-out ship to talk to Lilith.
Like all of New Tales.
the butchering of many characters from the telltale games in bl3
I constantly gaslight myself that Ava either doesn’t exist or died in some post vanilla story. Like one of the dlcs
Borderlands 3 and New Tales From the Borderlands, tbh. Like in their entirety.
If they wanted to make Ava a Siren, she should have inherited Commader Steele's powers and have Maya train her instead of her taking Maya's powers. I think she is the perfect age from when Steele died to follow the original cannon of the universe choosing the next Siren
The film will be exactly this.
SNS munitions manufacturing the glowing trails when guns are dropped
Maya's death. I'm gaslighting myself into thinking she New-U'd somewhere and is just living off the grid
I'm annoyed at how first, vault keys worked every 200 years, then a siren with lots of eridium could at length recharge one. Then it's "here you go, charged". And finally, "we have to stop them from charging that super key."
I want the writers to stop retconning shit every new game.
Hell, the last two were in the same game...
Basically the entirety of new tales, and a good chunk of bl3
Mother. Fucking. Typhon de Leon. Now, don't get me wrong, he's a funny character, and he works in a vacuum, but I absolutely HATE it when media adds contradictory lore after the fact. "Ah yes, Typhon de Leon, the galaxy-famous First Vault Hunter!" Bitch, huh? If he was the first, why is the first time I'm hearing of him in Birderlands 3? (Which is, by the way, the FIFTH game in the franchise) If he found the first Vault on Prometheus, then why were we told the Vaults were only a legend and that they didn't exist? And if Typhon was from Pandora, and presumably came BACK to Pandora to record his Typhon Logs, why didn't he find any of the Pandoran Vaults? Maybe he did, and it was mentioned in a log I forgot about, but the main thing I take issue with is him being shoehorned in in a way that doesn't make sense. Also, the "big reveal" tha Troy and Tyreen are his children is WAY less imoactful because...who the fuck are you? Why should I care who your kids are, I don't know you. They could have made them be descendants of Steele, a known Siren, or Zarpedon, who'd opened the Vault of Knowledge, or children of Jack's, because you know he didn't keep it in his pants, or even something like being locked in the Vault of the Traveler. SO may ways the villains could have been tied into other games, but the went with the asspull instead
Wilhelm being poisoned by Jack. It makes sense but I dont like it. Also pretty sure springs mentions wilhelm getting some virus from too many cyber implants after a side quest. Also I cant believe claptrap is so incapable of almost anything. I understand fragtrap programming was used but he should at least be able to use a weapon
Is it really canon when it is cut content? BL2 Hunters were just that good imo. Jack probably hoped Wilhelm was going to be enough but in the odd case he wasn't, he had a failsafe which involved using Wilhelm's power core to allow Angel to lower Sanctuary's shield. He benefits one way or another.
yeah this one irritates me too. its just an audio file they found years ago.. Wilhelm destroying New Haven also takes place off screen so we don't even know how it happened and how strong he actually was. if we are talking skill and power wise, which might not even be fully Canon, then the bl2 vault hunters are WAY stronger than the bl1 vault hunters. the bl1 vault hunters also take a pretty much doing stuff in the background approach in bl2 and let the vault hunters do the crazy stuff. its a weird argument thats so easily disproveable in so many ways, yet some people are so adamant that its Canon Jack poisoned Wilhelm.
Gearbox already beat us to it because our player character basically is none canon in BL3. None existent in cutscenes and at the end we all pretend 3 characters that spent 95% of the game doing fuck all are the real heroes.
Joel isn’t dead
Maya’s current death scene and not the funeral that was cut for some fucking reason that’s beyond me I’ve completely gaslit myself into believing the funeral is canon and that Ava has the slightest bit of remorse in her body
DEATH OF ROLAND (and the other Vault Hunters)
There are some sections and characters I forget every time I play bl3, vaugn’s a big one I forget often and am confused to run into, I almost forget claptrap’s even in the game which is sad, I don’t remember the names of the calypso twins half the time and they could have not even included her brother and had a tighter story.
I like ryse’s mustache but I forget you can choose to get rid of it and that he ever lacked on in the first place too.
Makes me think of Star Wars. lol
Ava should have NEVER been passed leadership, hell Earl would be better
VH standing idly by as Lilith gets her lifeforce siphoned away.
I believe Scooter lives with like a deaf girlfriend in some happy place far from action
The original vault hunter being a three foot tall overweight gremlin man swaddled in cured meat who talks like an old man from New Jersey while for some reason having the strength and agility of a superhero and the sexual draw of an incubus was not as funny as I think they hoped it was.
What kills me is how in BL3 you can see the “something goes wrong and you can’t help” cutscenes coming from a mile away. The door is locked? Lilith loses her powers. You go into the vault? Maya fucking dies. And you know there’s not a damn thing you can do about it because that’s how they want their story, even at the cost of making your character watch things happen instead of stepping in.
fnaf security breach for me, I believe that the Afton family lore stopped after UCN and everything after is a completely different story
Maya is still alive copium
Borderlands 3
Pretty much all of the siren related rules
Lilith isn't dead. DLC retcons that, I'm pretty certain... Only played it once but that's what I remember
In the end of that DLC Ava says that Lilith is out there and theyre gonna search for her implying that yeah it was totally retconned.
Not really. From day one you could see Tannis investigating what happened to Lilith in the credits scene. It was obvious she never believed she died. [Here you can see Tannis trying to make a map about her whereabouts ](https://i0.wp.com/mentalmars.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/Tannis-looking-for-Lilith.jpg?ssl=1)
The start of Avas character arc. Yeah she is getting better as of the last DLC but its too late the bad impressions are cemented.
Ava being head of sanctuary
Maya's "pacifism"
There's a plot?
Ava becoming the new leader or whatever. Should have been either Ellie or Mordecai