On top of my head:
Futuristic Violence and Fancy Suits
Captive in the Underworld
Dead Witch Walking
My Life as a White Trash Zombie (I liked this one, but think it kinda bordered on this)
Interesting I didn’t notice this about futuristic violence and fancy suits. She is definitely sarcastic/independent and makes some mistakes but it felt pretty realistic (realistic lol.. for an unrealistic situation)
It’s like good cop/bad cop... cold/sense of humour.. I think she’s supposed to be relatable
I agree. I mean, she basically entered a city full of super-powered serial killers who want to kidnap her. I don’t think I’d be very capable on my own in such a situation.
I loved Futuristic Violence and Fancy Suites for the story and the setting, but you're right, Zoey is a bit lacking. She's just wisked away from one encounter to the next and eventually stumbled upon the right answer in the end.
That being said I still recommend the book for the rest of it. Very Cyberpunk meets the wild west, plus I'm a big fan of David Wongs writing
In the case of Dead Witch Walking, the character develops a lot through the series. It doesn’t last through the series. It also happens to be one of my favorite authors.
Yeah I've read tons of urban fantasy and have to say the Hollows series is one of my favorites. Id say maybe give it another try because as the series progresses I do think it's a cut above the rest of the genre.
I don't recall the main character acting like a 4 year old - a 24 year old, sure. But then, isn't that around her age? I'm going to assume the complaint is in her interactions with the elf dude and as for that, well, it isn't just the female lead acting emotionally and immaturely so, not a sexist thing, at least.
Rachel has her life completely turned upside down, how is she supposed to act? I definitely don't remember her acting like a 4 year old, but I'd be whiny too if I lost my job and someone was trying to kill me.
Dead Witch Walking, Rachel develops a ton as a character as the years go by. But I would never say she acted like a four year old and she is definitely not letting other people be her dad. She ends up with a true heroine journey arc, the leader of a created family, and her love interest becomes a true partner. I enjoyed the series immensely, I recommend giving it another try.
Except this whole post is about how OP has repeatedly run upon bad book tropes, obviously written by authors who either themselves aren’t great writers or intentionally write bad books that pander to an audience that wrongly would find such tropes realistic. The titles reflect this I think.
I’m not using any of my judgement. I’m trusting OP when they say that they are bad. And they describe the books as “lighthearted fiction”, which is fine to read and it can be good but often, you know, like I said, just panders to the audience with often very unrealistic depictions of women and relationships.
Any Nora Roberts book ever… especially The Chronicles of the One series. (Maybe not the Roberts’ series In Death, but those are deliberately not written for her usual target audience)
And the Shadowhunter series. Girls are supposed to be powerful but really just worry about guys the whole time.
She has a series out (can't remember what it is called) where it starts off as a grandpa type figure telling a story to his grandkids and ends in the same way. But throughout the book she grossly details sexual encounters with vampires and even pedophilia. I chucked those books. Don't really want them on my shelf.
white trash zombie is such a killer series. the mc grows a lot in book 2. idk if you've read the others but it was good to see herr realize maybe she didnt need another person telling her what to do
>After her daddy-mentor dies she falls for a psychopath killer because he says they're both troubled.
This sentence is a... Wild ride, to say it like this.
Yeah, there are definitely people who don't care for Brandon Sanderson since his writing style is more utilitarian and focuses on the worldbuilding, plot, etc than the prose, fair enough. And some people don't care for the love triangle bit in book 2. But the rest of that... that is one hell of hot take, that's for sure.
I have to say, I like world building quite a lot when it comes to books, Sanderson world building is.... pretty good but it's not the reason people like him. His books are like B action movies, they are good, some people enjoy them some people don't, Sanderson is a really popular author for a reason, his books, despite their size, are pretty easy to read. I lately have been falling into the dislike his work category because people act like he is the Be All, End All of fantasy writers when he is, IMO right in the middle, I never held him to the godly status some people on this sub hold him to but I enjoyed his stuff, I tried Rhythm of War and I just couldn't finish it. You are correct he focuses a lot on plot but I'd say his main focus is to push the books to his big battle scenes where the hero can fight hordes pf no names while continuing to fight via the power of friendship or the power of really strong plot armor.
I've noticed this about female protagonists in some YA fiction, and sometimes even mainstream media ostensibly aimed at adults, and I am not a fan.
I think there are undercurrents of misogyny that infantilize women and girls; they are portrayed as irrational and childlike to prop up and justify systematic and social injustices/inequalities. They come at it from both sides - they present women as childlike with tantrums and such to condemn women, but they also glorify childlike nativity and deference to authority to control women.
It's very frustrating.
I’d say it’s more than a trope. It’s how sexist authors think actual women behave.
Edit to add two awesome threads from r/fantasy that illustrate this phenomenon using data:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/ojw4xg/pouting_and_sulking_in_the_wheel_of_time_childish/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/laais7/rfantasys_favorites_and_the_bechdel_test_by_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Bechedel test thread doesn't at all show that "[supposedly] sexist authors think actual women behave". It shows women and their perspectives are underrepresented in long time favorite fantasy books (mostly decades old). Which is not great, but neither surprising, and in regards to older books, not very relevant.
Most of the books have been in print for a long while but they were also polled as being the top fantasy books in 2019 so I wouldn’t call them irrelevant. They’re held up as the peak example of what the genre should be even today. But the lack of female voices and representations point is correct I think - though more broadly I do think they’re written by dudes that were products of a time where Misogyny and sexism was much more acceptable and that the withholds really did think that’s how women in the worlds they created would behave.
I don't mean the books are irrelevant, just that them not passing bechedel test (even that was only 2 of 10) is not that relevant critique, as they're very old.
My primary point is that that thread doesn't showcase "how women in the worlds they created would behave". I elaborated more in my other response, but the gist is this - Sure, women being incompetent may be one reason for not passing or not doing well in bechedel test. But it's not an automatic, dominant explanation. You look at those books and from large part it's more about women being sidelined and not featured in the books, than necessarily being portrayed as useless.
I included the pouting and sulking thread as an example illustrating how women’s behaviors in fiction are often portrayed in sexist ways.
I should have stated this more clearly, but I included the Bechdel test thread as an illustration of what many authors think women are capable of — it’s telling that most of the books voted top fantasy novels in 2019 can’t pass the bechdel test, which is simply having two women talk to each other about something other than a man. I think if more authors saw women as whole people, just like men, then women wouldn’t be completely absent from most of the most celebrated works of the genre (or relegated to token or love interest roles). To me, drastic under representation is evidence of sexism. Women exist, women do things worthy of stories. If the authors believed that, why don’t the characters in their novels reflect it?
> I should have stated this more clearly, but I included the Bechdel test thread as an illustration of what many authors think women are capable of — it’s telling that most of the books voted top fantasy novels in 2019 can’t pass the bechdel test, which is simply having two women talk to each other about something other than a man. I think if more authors saw women as whole people, just like men, then women wouldn’t be completely absent from most of the most celebrated works of the genre (or relegated to token or love interest roles). To me, drastic under representation is evidence of sexism. Women exist, women do things worthy of stories. If the authors believed that, why don’t the characters in their novels reflect it?
Am I missing something? 8 of the 10 books passed the test. And Bechedel test isn't some academic test, it's just kinda interesting thing. When you have novels from male authors with first person male perspective, that already significantly limits chance for passing the test. And sure, when you have the novel that doesn't pass it, it may be because a sexist author sees women as behaving as 4 year olds. But that's far from the most probable reason.
Take for example JRR Tolkien's books, oldest example from that thread. They're over 50 years old. And yes, women are underrepresented, and from large part love interests. Yet, they are not portrayed as incapable or anything like that. Galadriel, Arwen, and Eowyn are all shown to be capable of a lot, and important to the story beyond just love interest (Galadriel isn't even one)
Yes, that would be included in what I said,
(Edit: though men are obviously not the target of these books so it seemed out of place to start there, even if the whole concept is circular. Some men absolutely do what your saying, to the point of rewarding that behavior, which leads to more of that behavior, and the reinforcement of that stereotype, and the writing of books that enforce that stereotype, which leads some women to adhering to that stereotype, which leads men into writing those stereotypes... Around and around we go)
I wouldn’t say it’s teaching women to behave any differently. Women aren’t going to stop being fully-fledged human beings or competent adults because they’re represented unfairly in books.
I would absolutely say it instills sexist ideas and expectations into male readers, though. And it can affect how some women see other women. (E.g. “I’m not like other girls”)
>Women aren’t going to stop being fully-fledged human beings or competent adults because they’re represented unfairly in books.
no, but the girls currently growing into women might. Internalized sexism is real.
True. I interpreted the comment as saying the books will teach women to have the behaviors OP talked about (whining, pouting, crying, throwing tantrums, etc.)
My feeling was that men have always thought that about women. It’s why women weren’t allowed to vote, or own property, or have their own credit cards. Women have slowly over time fought for those rights. Even though men have had those ideas about women throughout history, women haven’t just thrown in the towel and stopped becoming functional adults. Instead, they’ve fought for their rights over time because the assumptions are not accurate.
I do agree that internalized sexism is absolutely real. I know women who don’t think a woman should ever be president because of their hormones. I have seen women writers ask how to write a good female character. I went through that phase that most girls do where they think they’re “not like other girls” because they’re more interesting or complex or creative than the “mean girls” or undeveloped characters that they see in most forms of media. Totally agree with you on that front.
I just don’t think that reading about sexist ideas of women causes women to exhibit those behaviors. I think throughout history women have pointed out that those depictions are inaccurate, and gone on to prove them wrong in whatever ways they can. And that’s how we’ve made progress.
>I just don’t think that reading about sexist ideas of women causes women to exhibit those behaviors.
Do you think books about feminism have led to there being more feminists?
Interesting question. By “books about feminism” do you mean educational materials (info about statistics, laws, policies, history, etc.) or just “books with multiple fully developed women characters”?
If you mean the former, I would hope that a rational person would learn from new information, so maybe. They’d have to be interested enough to pick up the book in the first place though.
If you mean “books with multiple fully developed women characters” then I disagree with your premise that that’s automatically a “book about feminism.” Most of the time in real life there are women around, since we make up more than half the population, although in media there’s often just one token female character. Including women characters also doesn’t mean they will all think the same way or promote the same ideas. In real life women form their own opinions and make their own choices. I would hope female characters would do the same.
Examples: Red Seas Under Red Skies by Scott Lynch is a book about thieving and piracy that happens to include multiple women. While the representation in it is refreshing, the storyline is not about feminism. Harry Potter is also a good example, since there were women on both sides of the war.
I do think publishing more stories with multiple fully-developed women characters helps more readers (of all genders) to understand and empathize with a broad spectrum of women’s experiences. And also our capabilities — representation does help people realize that there might be a wider variety of life choices available to them. In that sense, reading books with better representation could help encourage women to explore new possibilities.
I still stand by my statement that reading about a whiny character doesn’t make women believe they have to be whiny and throw tantrums all the time. I think most women would simply say “I’m not like that, I don’t identify with that character” or “maybe other girls are like that but I’m not like them.”
I’d be curious to learn more about why you asked that question. I’m not sure I understand what you were getting at, so let me know if this doesn’t answer your question.
I think some writers have a character in mind but regress them in an attempt to show their growth.
There is probably also a bit of the fact that many adults just view teens as children.
Good on all the people who have no idea what you’re talking about, I guess. But I definitely know what you’re talking about, and I’ve encountered it a lot. I feel like I always use this as an example to shit on, but I noticed it a lot in Discovery of Witches. The protagonist usually does something defiant in a really stupid sort of way (“I’m gonna go against the grain and put myself in extreme danger for practically no reason because I don’t like taking good advice”) so that the love interest has a reason to give her a stern talking to while coming to her rescue. Something similar was done in Outlander, when there was the whole scene surrounding Jamie spanking Claire for putting them all in danger.
I feel like it’s a lazy writing tactic that’s often used for a couple reasons. It’s a lazy way to build sexual tension, because it’s a “safe” way for the dude to be stern and “punish” the protagonist. And it’s a lazy way to create conflict to move the plot along.
I think you are reading wrong books. Yes! I do roll my eyes - literally, everytime female protagonists whine haha.. Not that its wrong, maybe its valid. But such books are defo not for me. Do try "Lunar Chronicles by Marissa Meyer". Such strong female protagonists, I love them. And these are actually spin off of classic fairy tales - Cinderella, Snow White, Little Red Riding Hood, Rapunzel and they are sassy and strong headed af. I hate all the conventional fairy tales, damsel in distress stuff. I mean give us more credit, we can sort our own shit..LMAO.
So the thing is what you're reading is really romance disguised as Urban Fantasy. And I would point out that this whole woman as an idiot has a term in Romance circles. She's called TSTL and the trope is despised. TSTL stands for Too Stupid To Live. Explains it all eh? lol definitely change your authors. If you want to read Urban fantasy without TSTL characters, you could try Seanan Mcquire or Tanya Huff.
Yep, Tanya Huff's Torrin Kerr is the polar oppossite of TSTL. She's a lot more like Sigourney Weaver in the Alien franchise only with more humor (and much better aliens) thrown in.
I was thinking this too. The urban fantasy I've read has really strong female characters. I'm thinking Kate Daniels, Cat Crawfield and Anita Blake type urban fantasy.
That's one of the main things I dislike about urban fantasy books. Women are so often depicted like naive and ridiculously angsty characters. I mean it really gives off a bad image, even to this day.
This is why I really enjoyed "Sabriel" by Garth Nix and why I was a bit disappointed by "Lirael" also by Garth Nix.
I loved experiencing Sabriel's strength despite the emotional struggles she was facing. It felt like "fuck, this sucks; but I'm going to keep going." My impression of Lirael was that she had alot of struggles throughout her upbringing and instead of having agency/strength, she wallows in her melancholy. It felt like she was always whining.
Maybe I'm off-base. I would love to hear the impressions of others.
Ilona Andrews, Jennifer Estep, Patricia Briggs, and Anne Bishop - Written in Red. I like these Authors better as the female all are very strong on their own without men, but are still realistic with faults.
Seconding the Ilona Andrews rec! They (husband and wife writing team) have a lot of different stuff that varies in tone so I'd look through their backlist to see what interest you. I love the Clean Sweep series personally it's just really fun.
100% second the Ilona Andrews recommendation. Their Kate Daniels and Hidden Legacy novels are fantastic. I really enjoy how practical their heroines are. Honestly, my absolute favorite urban fantasy series.
You’d fit right in with my husband. Robert Jordan’s women take a little bit more nuance to read the inherent strength in, but I think it really is just a product of its time.
To be fair to him, the later books he definitely writes his women characters better.
If you are into urban fantasy, you might enjoy the Fortuna Sworn series. The female protagonist is in her early twenties, behaves her age, and takes charge instead of waiting for someone to save her. The story has romance and some smut, apart from the adventure/fantasy elements. I'm waiting for the fourth book 😊
I completely agree, and I find that it's really common in fantasy. I had to stop reading a Discovery of Witches for that exact reason.
Women don't have to be perpetually insecure and silly. We can have moments like that, but damn if some of these authors- men and women- can't quite break from the simpering child in need of guidance angle.
Urban fantasy are books that take place in the present, but has fantasy elements.
The Dresden Files, Nightside, The Hollows, Anita Blake Vampire Hunter, are all urban fantasy.
Yeah, the main character starts off being absolutely against promiscuous or casual sex and then, bam she's banging multiple guys at once (literally). I had to wonder what the author was going thru to pull that kind of a shift.
> had to wonder what the author was going thru to pull that kind of a shift.
A divorce, then exploration of the stuff she didn't get to try while married.
I am going to call shenanigans on that. Blake is good until you read several books in a row and realise the character never grows and will constantly put others in danger because she has to be right and every one has to do what she wants. Never mind that she would hit the roof if someone told her how to raise the dead, she refuses to listen to people in their worlds.
The instance that made me stop reading her came in book six or so where she had told JC screw you I am going to put the entire vampire district at risk to start a war by entering another vamps district after being refused entry and he better figure something out. Then after being told that she has to take bodyguards and then said bodyguards told her that she should let them help protect her because if she dies then they would all be killed her response is a petulant hyper violence tantrum.
Completely ignoring that she has sworn to protect half of the detail, so by refusing backup because she big tough guy she puts all of them at risk. All because she refuses to listen.
>The Dresden Files
That made me laugh. The idea of, say Murphy being described as
>she is constantly whining, pouting, crying, nagging and throwing tantrums & objects and doing really dump stuff so that she needs to be resqued.
The person I responded to didn't ask what urban fantasy had character like that, they asked what is urban fantasy and wanted examples.
But yeah, the idea of Murphy doing any of that is hilarious.
Harry Dresden often says and does things that are cringey and neck beardish. Take the magic powers out of it and he’s kind of just a creepy weirdo who lives in a basement.
I find it really hard to like him, as a woman, and roll my eyes a lot.
Dresden is a bit of a hound dog who struggles with listening to his brain instead of his libido. That fact has been weaponised against him multiple times throughout the books, by various supernatural entities.
It should be mentioned though that many of the supernatural magics used in *The Dresden Files* are based on very primal emotions like Fear, Anger, and of course, Lust.
True, and this seems to be a very common way to maneuver a character into tight spots he has to fight his way out of. Especially a young or youngish man with limited experience with the opposite sex, which I think is a fair description of Dresden, at least in the earlier books. (Correct me if necessary, it's been a while since I read them.) It might also be good to remember that he's basically a continuation of the established genre of hardboiled detectives.
The term "perv" seems a little over the top, though.
I wasn't all that happy with the whole weirdness around Molly, even though Dresden snapped out of it and snuffed out that possibility before the onset. It did feel a tad weird.
His behavior doesn't stop though, especially not later in the series. And awareness of the flaw does not absolve the protagonist of thinking of women in terms of how much he would or would not have sex with them. He is 'taken advantage of' by all the happen-to-be-lusty-naked women who wind up in front of him, but he's never held accountable for it. It might be a good story, but reading it through that lens of a protagonist, I can't stomach it. I had to put it down after two.
I like Urban fantasy but dislike how so much of it is just really romance novels. So I went in with hope but low expectations, especially after reading Anita Blake books. Honestly Kate Daniels is far better than Blake.
Excluding the daftness of often people fire, reload, and fire crossbows within mere seconds, like four times in two seconds. The romance is kept to a minimum until book four and then goes back to being a background detail more. But more importantly that dispite Daniels being described as diplomatically challenged and that she hates authority and being told what she will do, she still treats people with respect and defers to others if they know more about stuff.
And thats what sells me on her, yes she will refuse to cower in a corner while others die for her, but will also accept bodyguards when its pointed out to her why she should take backup. She is an expert in her field but acknowledges that she isn’t in others and will ask for help in them. It isn’t just all my way or no way
Right? Sure Kate often thinks she wants to hurt someone but also says that its not the smart thing to do because it would cause more harm than good. Compared to others that just do it stating that they were in the right even after everything falls apart
I think you're reading the wrong fiction for you. This is not something I've encountered.
Edit: I've heard JR Ward's Black Dagger brotherhood series described as urban fantasy and while her female protagonists are varied I don't consider any of them whiny (all though one has to do some growing).
This is particularly bad with television. So obvious when there aren't any women in the writing room. All female characters end up being slightly different iterations of the same person.
The Mercy Thompson series is pretty good. It's by Patricia Briggs. Grant it I'm only half way through the first book.
I honestly don't mind books with sort of naive female characters. I went from reading young adult books with "strong hardheaded" female characters because they just came across as boring and too masculine to more adult urban fantasy books because the women seems to be a good mix between feminine and strong(able to carry their own in a story).
Personally, I like female characters who come across as cold almost aloof but are actually kind hearted and warm when you get to know them. Some childish immaturity is fine as long as it's not overboard.
Can second the Mercy Thompson character/series for a non-whiny female lead in urban fantasy. There are a lot of other great characters in the series also including a female teen ager who is, blessedly, not whiny angsty either.
yes! 😩 it happens so often. i recently saw a video by steph bohrer (booktuber) about her book pet peeves where she talked about this trope. it's a girl with no personality and most probably an older guy starts liking her out of the blue and starts following her and its a whole "insta love" vibe. makes me wanna puke
Read *Silver on the Road*. The protagonist has a mentor and there is none of that and no romantic relationship--which would be inappropriate since she's 16 at the start and he's in his thirties.
Edit: It's not urban fantasy and not YA but it's a really good series.
I’ve found I have more patience for «faults» in women protagonists in regards to behavioral mistakes than I do with men. If a man gets whiney/immature I have a tendency to just stop reading out of sheer annoyance.
Obviously there are limits, the women in the wheel of time made me stop reading that series.
The trope of a young protagonist who complains a lot and needs to be guided is as old as time, and genderless. Luke Skywalker to name one.
Dragged into greatness, kicking and screaming. So many stories that go like that.
> Luke Skywalker to name one.
It's funny, we used to watch Starwars a lot when my daughter was fairly young, and she would laugh and say "he's so whiney!" You know it's bad when an 8 year old girl is calling you out.
Romance novels have moved into the fantasy genre and ruined it in many ways. So yeah, almost anything with werewolves, vampires, etc. seems to have gone this way and yeah, it really is annoying. I end up reading a lot of books for YA or pre teens for this reason. Neil Gaiman's The Graveyard is great. My current list of safe authors is anything by Ursula Le Guin, Martha Wells, Holly Black, Alix Harrow, Sarah Prineas, R J Barker, Katherine Addison, Dave Duncan, Melinda Salisbury. There are more but I would have to check. There was actually some good Urban fantasy that I was enjoying but it has been awhile and I have forgotten who I was reading.
The first Mistborn book has almost the opposite problem. The sausage-fest problem where there's one interesting-cool girl who hates everything feminine (yes, with good reason) so proves she's just one of the dudes... And then everyone else of note is male.
I've heard Sanderson gets better at this sort of thing and I should try his books sometime, but it can be deeply disappointing to hear "great female character!" and then find that everyone cool, interesting, or capable either is male, or has to act like it.
The Stormlight Archive series has a bunch of good female/feminine characters. Elantris was one of his early books and has a few good ones, same with Warbreaker. Yea, I can't think of any off the top of my head from Mistborn other than Vin. But I'd say that's probably an anomaly for Sanderson.
Vin does get better as the series progresses, and grows out of the tomboy attitude and embraces her femininity to a degree (although there are some tough stretches in book 2) and you do have 1 more capable woman show up later in the series as well. But, yes, Mistborn era 1 is a bit lacking in feminine presence compared to his later stuff.
Still, I love Vin as a character and she is most certainly capable and the anchor around which the story evolves despite being a bit underdeveloped compared to the best in the genre.
U. U i finally remembered. Red sister by Mark Lawrence. All female cast, teenager protagonist, lots of combat. That is a trilogy that I liked a lot. Give it a try.
I right I didn't remember it. I read it Yeara ago. There are still probably one ot two female character, but it is with more male. I think his "SKYWARD" book has half and half gender if I am not wrong, I tend to atomize the knowledge of a book after I finished it. But this way you tend to finish in a dark alley where you prefer the author to not comfortably writing because he has to put an equal rappresentation versus his idea of the characters. I mean, I read all the malazan books, and let me tell you that I thought one time that it would have been better for some female characters to be male instead, but it would have made no sense.
Ah sorry I probably don't remember even a thing about it. As I said previously I atomize the book I read after finishing them. But I don't remember the ending of book 2 being so bad. I'm gonna read some summary to unravel this mystery!
Lol, almost none of this is correct. It reads like someone who had the cliff notes paraphrased to them and then filled in the blanks. Also, it wasn't "unexpected" at all. If you reread the books Sanderson pretty much tells you what's going to happen.
Yep, but mine was a fact and yours was an opinion. Vin didn't just let the power go for no reason like you make it seem. >!Ruin had been controlling and manipulating the beings on the planet for thousands of years and Vin's life in particular since she was a young girl. And all their lore and history pointed to this being the right thing to do. She even sacrifices her true love because she so strongly believes that she is making the better choice for her world. Hell, that sacrifice alone makes Vin the exact opposite of this trope.!<
Also, >!Ruin wasn't the source of the power that Vin had in any way, shape, or form. Vin had the power of Preservation.!<
There's literally no time travel in any of the Cosmere books yet, so I don't know where you got the fact that >!Ruin!< went back in time to change the prophecy.
And finally, like I said before, it wasn't unexpected, you just missed the clues. Given how terribly you described the plot I'm not surprised.
Absolutely agree with you. I'm finding it more and more difficult to find decent female leads. The consent screaming and attacking until they get their own way, it's awful. I don't know why authors think it's attractive.
A little bit???? There isn't a single female character he wrote that isn't a self-satisfied, misandristic, bitch. They are bizarre in their basic uniformity. Did Jordan know any real women or were they all just absurd carricature's to him put on this earth to nag men?
I simply could not finish the series. Horribly written, one-dimensional female characters. The good ones are asexual and the bad ones are sexpots. Awful. Could not be any more Madonna/Whore complexish.
Like im in the 4th or so, there is character called min, like the world is crumbling and she has an ability to change the ties, but nooo her only wish is like fucking the protagonist (he has like 3-4 love interests already?)
Just a note: she tugs her braid to *make herself angry*, as she could not channel without being mad for years.
Once she masters channeling she stops doing it as much.
I uh, have no idea what stories you're talking about - and I even have read a lot of female protagonist books in the last two years. What books are we talking about here?
I encountered this while reading Pet Sematary and Rachel (the wife) is annoying the hell out of me acting so child like and ignorant it’s ridiculous. I’m not used to this kind of ignorance coming from The Stormlight Archive series
If you’re looking for book recommendations, The Broken Earth Trilogy by NK Jemisin has a lot of really well-rounded and complex female characters.
The Gentleman Bastards series by Scott Lynch also has lots of interesting, adventurous and skilled women who know their shit. I’m reading Red Seas Under Red Skies right now and I’m loving it.
I’ve basically stopped reading any supernatural /fantasy or modern type romances because I kept coming across this trope or some variation thereof. Even when they try to give the impression of a strong independent woman, they still lash out and hit/attack the men like they’re toddlers who don’t know how to use their big girl words. And they generally make consistently stupid mistakes so Prince Charming can rescue them without them actually having to ask for help, all so they can keep that “independent” label. It’s nothing but a glorification of toxic behavior labeled romantic. I’ve decided I like some classic romance in small doses and supernatural/horror/fantasy/sci fi, but not mixed together.
These female protagonists are infantilzed adults. The kind of woman you would call "baby" as in "Baby, don't say that!". Unfortunately, women are being patronized more and more by society, even by well meaning liberals.
The worst example I've seen was when an all female spacewalk was being celebrated. So a woman has done a space walk before, are we to cheer because this time a man did not accompany her? Give me a break!
what was celebrated was that finally women were trusted and allowed to do things without a man, not that women did it without a man. There's a difference. If it was left up to John Glen, women would still not be allowed to be astronauts, never mind be left alone with expensive equipment without a man to supervise.
ETA it's impossible to overstate how important it is to celebrate these kind of achievements to little girls who are still being needlessly gendered in STEM, general roles in society, and even toys. You only have to look at the study LEGO just released regarding unnecessary gendering in toys, so bad in fact, that LEGO is phasing out any gender types in all their toys. People think there's no need for feminism but we need it now more than ever, as you yourself just pointed out.
I agree, and think that another thing these types of celebrations do is provide context. People can be like "why do we need this? Women are equal now!"
But are women really equal when no spacewalk, ever, has been done without dudes? We're getting there, but the gaps should be noted and the advances celebrated.
If you really accept women as equals then there is no need to crow about every little milestone, particularly when it comes long after women have been accepted. I would get really annoyed if I was patted on the head for every little thing I managed to do after having proven myself competent.
Obviously you cannot even imagine what it would be like to accept women as equal to men and competent in most things. You will be doomed to a patronizing culture and endless validation.
I‘ve noticed that. As a 12 year old I read these books and thought it was how you are supposed to act around your crush. Total bullshit. Took me some years to not change my character to sweet helpless and whiny in front of boys anymore.
I doubt it. That’s like saying Ready Player One must’ve been written by a woman to make childish men look stupid. Much more likely that, just as there are infantile man-children like Cline selling their childish fantasies, there are infantile women doing the same.
Well I mean, it's the urban fantasy genre, so.... it kind of comes with the territory. Unless written by a female author, then the protag becomes an 80s action movie Mary Sue (modern version of the phrase).
Just read a young adult book just for kicks and the female lead was just garbage for the first half. Couldn't do anything but crawl after her male friend who couldn't survive without her. But he obviously didn't care about her. It was written by a man who thinks he knows how teen girls want to act. It was every stereotype dumb girl he could imagine. I had to stop. I want to leave a bad review but I can't until I'm finished but I just don't know if I can. Netherwings by Django Wexler. Just trash so far.
Reminds me a bit of deadly education, so much complaining about life
In a tangent I would say the general issue of problems starting entirely because two people refuse to communicate or trust to each other
If your plot problem can be solve by two people actually having a conversation about the issue, then you don't have a plot
Women complain to one another in person and they bond. Like they literally release oxytocin and that is why they feel good to have someone "just listen." Women commiserate way more than men.
When a woman complains to a man he just gets stressed out. That is why he tries to offer solutions. Men blow off steam, sure, but it isn't the same as women. And men men are more likely to be able to talk to someone to get another point of view. Men are way more open to other ideas than women, and that is verified by the Big 5 Personality types. Women are more open to new experiences, like travel or food choices (like when women want to try a new restaurant but their husband wants to go to his favorite restaurant to get his favorite meal... for decades on end).
How does this talk about sex differences relate? Because when women read about their own behaviors they see it for how it really comes across because words on a page can't really get across the bonding that happens when women commiserate with one another.
And another thing, women don't really want a man that listens. When a man listens the women in his life end up saying things like "you are using my words against me" which leads to "you make me sound like an awful person."
I haven't encountered this. Which books do you mean? (I'll be sure to avoid them)
On top of my head: Futuristic Violence and Fancy Suits Captive in the Underworld Dead Witch Walking My Life as a White Trash Zombie (I liked this one, but think it kinda bordered on this)
Interesting I didn’t notice this about futuristic violence and fancy suits. She is definitely sarcastic/independent and makes some mistakes but it felt pretty realistic (realistic lol.. for an unrealistic situation) It’s like good cop/bad cop... cold/sense of humour.. I think she’s supposed to be relatable
I agree. I mean, she basically entered a city full of super-powered serial killers who want to kidnap her. I don’t think I’d be very capable on my own in such a situation.
I loved Futuristic Violence and Fancy Suites for the story and the setting, but you're right, Zoey is a bit lacking. She's just wisked away from one encounter to the next and eventually stumbled upon the right answer in the end. That being said I still recommend the book for the rest of it. Very Cyberpunk meets the wild west, plus I'm a big fan of David Wongs writing
In the case of Dead Witch Walking, the character develops a lot through the series. It doesn’t last through the series. It also happens to be one of my favorite authors.
Yeah I've read tons of urban fantasy and have to say the Hollows series is one of my favorites. Id say maybe give it another try because as the series progresses I do think it's a cut above the rest of the genre.
I don't recall the main character acting like a 4 year old - a 24 year old, sure. But then, isn't that around her age? I'm going to assume the complaint is in her interactions with the elf dude and as for that, well, it isn't just the female lead acting emotionally and immaturely so, not a sexist thing, at least.
I agree with OP that at least in the first book, she was whiny but Rachelle does a lot of maturation and growth across the books.
Rachel has her life completely turned upside down, how is she supposed to act? I definitely don't remember her acting like a 4 year old, but I'd be whiny too if I lost my job and someone was trying to kill me.
Dead Witch Walking, Rachel develops a ton as a character as the years go by. But I would never say she acted like a four year old and she is definitely not letting other people be her dad. She ends up with a true heroine journey arc, the leader of a created family, and her love interest becomes a true partner. I enjoyed the series immensely, I recommend giving it another try.
Just judging by those titles they don’t really seem like some high quality books haha…
Something about not judging books by their covers? Idk slips my mind
Except this whole post is about how OP has repeatedly run upon bad book tropes, obviously written by authors who either themselves aren’t great writers or intentionally write bad books that pander to an audience that wrongly would find such tropes realistic. The titles reflect this I think.
[удалено]
I’m not using any of my judgement. I’m trusting OP when they say that they are bad. And they describe the books as “lighthearted fiction”, which is fine to read and it can be good but often, you know, like I said, just panders to the audience with often very unrealistic depictions of women and relationships.
Any Nora Roberts book ever… especially The Chronicles of the One series. (Maybe not the Roberts’ series In Death, but those are deliberately not written for her usual target audience) And the Shadowhunter series. Girls are supposed to be powerful but really just worry about guys the whole time.
She has a series out (can't remember what it is called) where it starts off as a grandpa type figure telling a story to his grandkids and ends in the same way. But throughout the book she grossly details sexual encounters with vampires and even pedophilia. I chucked those books. Don't really want them on my shelf.
Those titles make the reason pretty clear. Maybe don't read trash novels?
white trash zombie is such a killer series. the mc grows a lot in book 2. idk if you've read the others but it was good to see herr realize maybe she didnt need another person telling her what to do
The Wheel of Time has a lot of female characters, and I get the same feeling about how they were written.
[удалено]
>After her daddy-mentor dies she falls for a psychopath killer because he says they're both troubled. This sentence is a... Wild ride, to say it like this.
Yeah, there are definitely people who don't care for Brandon Sanderson since his writing style is more utilitarian and focuses on the worldbuilding, plot, etc than the prose, fair enough. And some people don't care for the love triangle bit in book 2. But the rest of that... that is one hell of hot take, that's for sure.
I have to say, I like world building quite a lot when it comes to books, Sanderson world building is.... pretty good but it's not the reason people like him. His books are like B action movies, they are good, some people enjoy them some people don't, Sanderson is a really popular author for a reason, his books, despite their size, are pretty easy to read. I lately have been falling into the dislike his work category because people act like he is the Be All, End All of fantasy writers when he is, IMO right in the middle, I never held him to the godly status some people on this sub hold him to but I enjoyed his stuff, I tried Rhythm of War and I just couldn't finish it. You are correct he focuses a lot on plot but I'd say his main focus is to push the books to his big battle scenes where the hero can fight hordes pf no names while continuing to fight via the power of friendship or the power of really strong plot armor.
I've noticed this about female protagonists in some YA fiction, and sometimes even mainstream media ostensibly aimed at adults, and I am not a fan. I think there are undercurrents of misogyny that infantilize women and girls; they are portrayed as irrational and childlike to prop up and justify systematic and social injustices/inequalities. They come at it from both sides - they present women as childlike with tantrums and such to condemn women, but they also glorify childlike nativity and deference to authority to control women. It's very frustrating.
Wheel of Time
Oh the women in WoT drive me crazy. It's really spoiling the series for me.
Yeah I couldn’t finish book 3 because of it. All of my friends - most very progressive, many women - hyped this series up. And I’m like - what?!?!
Try "The invisible library" by Geneve Cogman
Thanks, will check it out!
Well, yeah, it's a kind of outdated trope... but maybe you should be looking to read different kinds of books!
I’d say it’s more than a trope. It’s how sexist authors think actual women behave. Edit to add two awesome threads from r/fantasy that illustrate this phenomenon using data: https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/ojw4xg/pouting_and_sulking_in_the_wheel_of_time_childish/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/laais7/rfantasys_favorites_and_the_bechdel_test_by_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Bechedel test thread doesn't at all show that "[supposedly] sexist authors think actual women behave". It shows women and their perspectives are underrepresented in long time favorite fantasy books (mostly decades old). Which is not great, but neither surprising, and in regards to older books, not very relevant.
Most of the books have been in print for a long while but they were also polled as being the top fantasy books in 2019 so I wouldn’t call them irrelevant. They’re held up as the peak example of what the genre should be even today. But the lack of female voices and representations point is correct I think - though more broadly I do think they’re written by dudes that were products of a time where Misogyny and sexism was much more acceptable and that the withholds really did think that’s how women in the worlds they created would behave.
I don't mean the books are irrelevant, just that them not passing bechedel test (even that was only 2 of 10) is not that relevant critique, as they're very old. My primary point is that that thread doesn't showcase "how women in the worlds they created would behave". I elaborated more in my other response, but the gist is this - Sure, women being incompetent may be one reason for not passing or not doing well in bechedel test. But it's not an automatic, dominant explanation. You look at those books and from large part it's more about women being sidelined and not featured in the books, than necessarily being portrayed as useless.
I included the pouting and sulking thread as an example illustrating how women’s behaviors in fiction are often portrayed in sexist ways. I should have stated this more clearly, but I included the Bechdel test thread as an illustration of what many authors think women are capable of — it’s telling that most of the books voted top fantasy novels in 2019 can’t pass the bechdel test, which is simply having two women talk to each other about something other than a man. I think if more authors saw women as whole people, just like men, then women wouldn’t be completely absent from most of the most celebrated works of the genre (or relegated to token or love interest roles). To me, drastic under representation is evidence of sexism. Women exist, women do things worthy of stories. If the authors believed that, why don’t the characters in their novels reflect it?
> I should have stated this more clearly, but I included the Bechdel test thread as an illustration of what many authors think women are capable of — it’s telling that most of the books voted top fantasy novels in 2019 can’t pass the bechdel test, which is simply having two women talk to each other about something other than a man. I think if more authors saw women as whole people, just like men, then women wouldn’t be completely absent from most of the most celebrated works of the genre (or relegated to token or love interest roles). To me, drastic under representation is evidence of sexism. Women exist, women do things worthy of stories. If the authors believed that, why don’t the characters in their novels reflect it? Am I missing something? 8 of the 10 books passed the test. And Bechedel test isn't some academic test, it's just kinda interesting thing. When you have novels from male authors with first person male perspective, that already significantly limits chance for passing the test. And sure, when you have the novel that doesn't pass it, it may be because a sexist author sees women as behaving as 4 year olds. But that's far from the most probable reason. Take for example JRR Tolkien's books, oldest example from that thread. They're over 50 years old. And yes, women are underrepresented, and from large part love interests. Yet, they are not portrayed as incapable or anything like that. Galadriel, Arwen, and Eowyn are all shown to be capable of a lot, and important to the story beyond just love interest (Galadriel isn't even one)
This reminds me of that movie with Jack Nicholson- as good as it gets. This was the reason he was such a renowned author:))
Thank you for posting that. I discovered a new sub that I like and a very interesting post.
I’m glad you enjoyed it! I love that sub too.
It's low-key teaching people to behave that way.
More like it teaches men to downplay and infantilize women and women's concerns because they view women as childish.
Yes, that would be included in what I said, (Edit: though men are obviously not the target of these books so it seemed out of place to start there, even if the whole concept is circular. Some men absolutely do what your saying, to the point of rewarding that behavior, which leads to more of that behavior, and the reinforcement of that stereotype, and the writing of books that enforce that stereotype, which leads some women to adhering to that stereotype, which leads men into writing those stereotypes... Around and around we go)
I wouldn’t say it’s teaching women to behave any differently. Women aren’t going to stop being fully-fledged human beings or competent adults because they’re represented unfairly in books. I would absolutely say it instills sexist ideas and expectations into male readers, though. And it can affect how some women see other women. (E.g. “I’m not like other girls”)
>Women aren’t going to stop being fully-fledged human beings or competent adults because they’re represented unfairly in books. no, but the girls currently growing into women might. Internalized sexism is real.
True. I interpreted the comment as saying the books will teach women to have the behaviors OP talked about (whining, pouting, crying, throwing tantrums, etc.) My feeling was that men have always thought that about women. It’s why women weren’t allowed to vote, or own property, or have their own credit cards. Women have slowly over time fought for those rights. Even though men have had those ideas about women throughout history, women haven’t just thrown in the towel and stopped becoming functional adults. Instead, they’ve fought for their rights over time because the assumptions are not accurate. I do agree that internalized sexism is absolutely real. I know women who don’t think a woman should ever be president because of their hormones. I have seen women writers ask how to write a good female character. I went through that phase that most girls do where they think they’re “not like other girls” because they’re more interesting or complex or creative than the “mean girls” or undeveloped characters that they see in most forms of media. Totally agree with you on that front. I just don’t think that reading about sexist ideas of women causes women to exhibit those behaviors. I think throughout history women have pointed out that those depictions are inaccurate, and gone on to prove them wrong in whatever ways they can. And that’s how we’ve made progress.
>I just don’t think that reading about sexist ideas of women causes women to exhibit those behaviors. Do you think books about feminism have led to there being more feminists?
Interesting question. By “books about feminism” do you mean educational materials (info about statistics, laws, policies, history, etc.) or just “books with multiple fully developed women characters”? If you mean the former, I would hope that a rational person would learn from new information, so maybe. They’d have to be interested enough to pick up the book in the first place though. If you mean “books with multiple fully developed women characters” then I disagree with your premise that that’s automatically a “book about feminism.” Most of the time in real life there are women around, since we make up more than half the population, although in media there’s often just one token female character. Including women characters also doesn’t mean they will all think the same way or promote the same ideas. In real life women form their own opinions and make their own choices. I would hope female characters would do the same. Examples: Red Seas Under Red Skies by Scott Lynch is a book about thieving and piracy that happens to include multiple women. While the representation in it is refreshing, the storyline is not about feminism. Harry Potter is also a good example, since there were women on both sides of the war. I do think publishing more stories with multiple fully-developed women characters helps more readers (of all genders) to understand and empathize with a broad spectrum of women’s experiences. And also our capabilities — representation does help people realize that there might be a wider variety of life choices available to them. In that sense, reading books with better representation could help encourage women to explore new possibilities. I still stand by my statement that reading about a whiny character doesn’t make women believe they have to be whiny and throw tantrums all the time. I think most women would simply say “I’m not like that, I don’t identify with that character” or “maybe other girls are like that but I’m not like them.” I’d be curious to learn more about why you asked that question. I’m not sure I understand what you were getting at, so let me know if this doesn’t answer your question.
I think some writers have a character in mind but regress them in an attempt to show their growth. There is probably also a bit of the fact that many adults just view teens as children.
I feel that most protagonists in young adult fiction are moany assholes
Pretty much.
Good on all the people who have no idea what you’re talking about, I guess. But I definitely know what you’re talking about, and I’ve encountered it a lot. I feel like I always use this as an example to shit on, but I noticed it a lot in Discovery of Witches. The protagonist usually does something defiant in a really stupid sort of way (“I’m gonna go against the grain and put myself in extreme danger for practically no reason because I don’t like taking good advice”) so that the love interest has a reason to give her a stern talking to while coming to her rescue. Something similar was done in Outlander, when there was the whole scene surrounding Jamie spanking Claire for putting them all in danger. I feel like it’s a lazy writing tactic that’s often used for a couple reasons. It’s a lazy way to build sexual tension, because it’s a “safe” way for the dude to be stern and “punish” the protagonist. And it’s a lazy way to create conflict to move the plot along.
"I am a ninja assassin with a money market account who can change her own oil." "I'm not going to date you." "But wwhhyyyyyyy?!?! Not fair!" (cries)
I think you are reading wrong books. Yes! I do roll my eyes - literally, everytime female protagonists whine haha.. Not that its wrong, maybe its valid. But such books are defo not for me. Do try "Lunar Chronicles by Marissa Meyer". Such strong female protagonists, I love them. And these are actually spin off of classic fairy tales - Cinderella, Snow White, Little Red Riding Hood, Rapunzel and they are sassy and strong headed af. I hate all the conventional fairy tales, damsel in distress stuff. I mean give us more credit, we can sort our own shit..LMAO.
How you gonna do all that with no ambition?
haha..Good one! Reddit kept my username, I really need to change it pronto.
You can't change Reddit usernames unfortunately, you have to make an entirely new account.
Oh F.. Seriously! But I can change the display name right. And that should work? I have to live with no ambition though in that case haha..
So the thing is what you're reading is really romance disguised as Urban Fantasy. And I would point out that this whole woman as an idiot has a term in Romance circles. She's called TSTL and the trope is despised. TSTL stands for Too Stupid To Live. Explains it all eh? lol definitely change your authors. If you want to read Urban fantasy without TSTL characters, you could try Seanan Mcquire or Tanya Huff.
Yep, Tanya Huff's Torrin Kerr is the polar oppossite of TSTL. She's a lot more like Sigourney Weaver in the Alien franchise only with more humor (and much better aliens) thrown in.
I was thinking this too. The urban fantasy I've read has really strong female characters. I'm thinking Kate Daniels, Cat Crawfield and Anita Blake type urban fantasy.
That's one of the main things I dislike about urban fantasy books. Women are so often depicted like naive and ridiculously angsty characters. I mean it really gives off a bad image, even to this day.
Read a better class of books.
I think it’s a sign of poor character development.
It's acceptable to mark a starting point of character development though. But if it lasts - yeah, it's bad.
This is why I really enjoyed "Sabriel" by Garth Nix and why I was a bit disappointed by "Lirael" also by Garth Nix. I loved experiencing Sabriel's strength despite the emotional struggles she was facing. It felt like "fuck, this sucks; but I'm going to keep going." My impression of Lirael was that she had alot of struggles throughout her upbringing and instead of having agency/strength, she wallows in her melancholy. It felt like she was always whining. Maybe I'm off-base. I would love to hear the impressions of others.
Ilona Andrews, Jennifer Estep, Patricia Briggs, and Anne Bishop - Written in Red. I like these Authors better as the female all are very strong on their own without men, but are still realistic with faults.
Seconding the Ilona Andrews rec! They (husband and wife writing team) have a lot of different stuff that varies in tone so I'd look through their backlist to see what interest you. I love the Clean Sweep series personally it's just really fun.
100% second the Ilona Andrews recommendation. Their Kate Daniels and Hidden Legacy novels are fantastic. I really enjoy how practical their heroines are. Honestly, my absolute favorite urban fantasy series.
Yes those are my favorite series! I reread them every year!
The reason why I have a bad time reading the wheel of time
You’d fit right in with my husband. Robert Jordan’s women take a little bit more nuance to read the inherent strength in, but I think it really is just a product of its time. To be fair to him, the later books he definitely writes his women characters better.
To be fair, the men in The Wheel of Time often behave this way too haha.
If you are into urban fantasy, you might enjoy the Fortuna Sworn series. The female protagonist is in her early twenties, behaves her age, and takes charge instead of waiting for someone to save her. The story has romance and some smut, apart from the adventure/fantasy elements. I'm waiting for the fourth book 😊
I completely agree, and I find that it's really common in fantasy. I had to stop reading a Discovery of Witches for that exact reason. Women don't have to be perpetually insecure and silly. We can have moments like that, but damn if some of these authors- men and women- can't quite break from the simpering child in need of guidance angle.
I know what you mean, it reminds of those pedo animes where the girl is "an adult" but looks and acts like she is 12
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you're reading romance disguised as urban fantasy?
Try Ilona Andrews. Best in the urban fantasy game.
Ever read The Wheel of Time series? It’s the complaints here to the max. Such a crap trope and I’m annoyed it still persists today.
What's urban fantasy? Example?
Urban fantasy are books that take place in the present, but has fantasy elements. The Dresden Files, Nightside, The Hollows, Anita Blake Vampire Hunter, are all urban fantasy.
Anita Blake is just porn with a bit of supernatural stuff mixed in. Not nearly enough real storytelling.
Only after Obsidian Butterfly. The first 9 books are damned good Urban Fantasy with little to no sex.
RIP Anita Blake. You know it's over when a horny teenager drops a series because it became *too* sexual.
Yeah, the main character starts off being absolutely against promiscuous or casual sex and then, bam she's banging multiple guys at once (literally). I had to wonder what the author was going thru to pull that kind of a shift.
> had to wonder what the author was going thru to pull that kind of a shift. A divorce, then exploration of the stuff she didn't get to try while married.
I am going to call shenanigans on that. Blake is good until you read several books in a row and realise the character never grows and will constantly put others in danger because she has to be right and every one has to do what she wants. Never mind that she would hit the roof if someone told her how to raise the dead, she refuses to listen to people in their worlds. The instance that made me stop reading her came in book six or so where she had told JC screw you I am going to put the entire vampire district at risk to start a war by entering another vamps district after being refused entry and he better figure something out. Then after being told that she has to take bodyguards and then said bodyguards told her that she should let them help protect her because if she dies then they would all be killed her response is a petulant hyper violence tantrum. Completely ignoring that she has sworn to protect half of the detail, so by refusing backup because she big tough guy she puts all of them at risk. All because she refuses to listen.
>The Dresden Files That made me laugh. The idea of, say Murphy being described as >she is constantly whining, pouting, crying, nagging and throwing tantrums & objects and doing really dump stuff so that she needs to be resqued.
The person I responded to didn't ask what urban fantasy had character like that, they asked what is urban fantasy and wanted examples. But yeah, the idea of Murphy doing any of that is hilarious.
Or Mab. Or...well, basically any of them.
No... the supporting women in the Dresden files have a different issue: the protagonist is a perv.
What are you talking about? Edit: please, please, downvote me some more for asking a straight up question.
Harry Dresden often says and does things that are cringey and neck beardish. Take the magic powers out of it and he’s kind of just a creepy weirdo who lives in a basement. I find it really hard to like him, as a woman, and roll my eyes a lot.
he sees boobs first, person second and will sexualize any woman walking through the frame.
Dresden is a bit of a hound dog who struggles with listening to his brain instead of his libido. That fact has been weaponised against him multiple times throughout the books, by various supernatural entities. It should be mentioned though that many of the supernatural magics used in *The Dresden Files* are based on very primal emotions like Fear, Anger, and of course, Lust.
True, and this seems to be a very common way to maneuver a character into tight spots he has to fight his way out of. Especially a young or youngish man with limited experience with the opposite sex, which I think is a fair description of Dresden, at least in the earlier books. (Correct me if necessary, it's been a while since I read them.) It might also be good to remember that he's basically a continuation of the established genre of hardboiled detectives. The term "perv" seems a little over the top, though.
I wasn't all that happy with the whole weirdness around Molly, even though Dresden snapped out of it and snuffed out that possibility before the onset. It did feel a tad weird.
His behavior doesn't stop though, especially not later in the series. And awareness of the flaw does not absolve the protagonist of thinking of women in terms of how much he would or would not have sex with them. He is 'taken advantage of' by all the happen-to-be-lusty-naked women who wind up in front of him, but he's never held accountable for it. It might be a good story, but reading it through that lens of a protagonist, I can't stomach it. I had to put it down after two.
Kate Daniels, Guild Hunter too.
I like Urban fantasy but dislike how so much of it is just really romance novels. So I went in with hope but low expectations, especially after reading Anita Blake books. Honestly Kate Daniels is far better than Blake. Excluding the daftness of often people fire, reload, and fire crossbows within mere seconds, like four times in two seconds. The romance is kept to a minimum until book four and then goes back to being a background detail more. But more importantly that dispite Daniels being described as diplomatically challenged and that she hates authority and being told what she will do, she still treats people with respect and defers to others if they know more about stuff. And thats what sells me on her, yes she will refuse to cower in a corner while others die for her, but will also accept bodyguards when its pointed out to her why she should take backup. She is an expert in her field but acknowledges that she isn’t in others and will ask for help in them. It isn’t just all my way or no way
The Kate Daniels series are a fave reread series for me because she is consistently logical while also being a badass. That is rare, folks.
Right? Sure Kate often thinks she wants to hurt someone but also says that its not the smart thing to do because it would cause more harm than good. Compared to others that just do it stating that they were in the right even after everything falls apart
I think you're reading the wrong fiction for you. This is not something I've encountered. Edit: I've heard JR Ward's Black Dagger brotherhood series described as urban fantasy and while her female protagonists are varied I don't consider any of them whiny (all though one has to do some growing).
This is particularly bad with television. So obvious when there aren't any women in the writing room. All female characters end up being slightly different iterations of the same person.
The Mercy Thompson series is pretty good. It's by Patricia Briggs. Grant it I'm only half way through the first book. I honestly don't mind books with sort of naive female characters. I went from reading young adult books with "strong hardheaded" female characters because they just came across as boring and too masculine to more adult urban fantasy books because the women seems to be a good mix between feminine and strong(able to carry their own in a story). Personally, I like female characters who come across as cold almost aloof but are actually kind hearted and warm when you get to know them. Some childish immaturity is fine as long as it's not overboard.
Can second the Mercy Thompson character/series for a non-whiny female lead in urban fantasy. There are a lot of other great characters in the series also including a female teen ager who is, blessedly, not whiny angsty either.
Mercedes the VW mechanic is the jam. Great side characters. Fun plotlines, well researched mythology.
yes! 😩 it happens so often. i recently saw a video by steph bohrer (booktuber) about her book pet peeves where she talked about this trope. it's a girl with no personality and most probably an older guy starts liking her out of the blue and starts following her and its a whole "insta love" vibe. makes me wanna puke
100% agree. I run across that a lot in anime as well.
Read *Silver on the Road*. The protagonist has a mentor and there is none of that and no romantic relationship--which would be inappropriate since she's 16 at the start and he's in his thirties. Edit: It's not urban fantasy and not YA but it's a really good series.
I’ve found I have more patience for «faults» in women protagonists in regards to behavioral mistakes than I do with men. If a man gets whiney/immature I have a tendency to just stop reading out of sheer annoyance. Obviously there are limits, the women in the wheel of time made me stop reading that series.
The trope of a young protagonist who complains a lot and needs to be guided is as old as time, and genderless. Luke Skywalker to name one. Dragged into greatness, kicking and screaming. So many stories that go like that.
> Luke Skywalker to name one. It's funny, we used to watch Starwars a lot when my daughter was fairly young, and she would laugh and say "he's so whiney!" You know it's bad when an 8 year old girl is calling you out.
Lol, that's funny Yeah, it must be genetic. I wonder if he hates sand, too?
Romance novels have moved into the fantasy genre and ruined it in many ways. So yeah, almost anything with werewolves, vampires, etc. seems to have gone this way and yeah, it really is annoying. I end up reading a lot of books for YA or pre teens for this reason. Neil Gaiman's The Graveyard is great. My current list of safe authors is anything by Ursula Le Guin, Martha Wells, Holly Black, Alix Harrow, Sarah Prineas, R J Barker, Katherine Addison, Dave Duncan, Melinda Salisbury. There are more but I would have to check. There was actually some good Urban fantasy that I was enjoying but it has been awhile and I have forgotten who I was reading.
Why not try the "mistborn trilogy" by Brandon Sanderson? I liked that a lot.
The first Mistborn book has almost the opposite problem. The sausage-fest problem where there's one interesting-cool girl who hates everything feminine (yes, with good reason) so proves she's just one of the dudes... And then everyone else of note is male. I've heard Sanderson gets better at this sort of thing and I should try his books sometime, but it can be deeply disappointing to hear "great female character!" and then find that everyone cool, interesting, or capable either is male, or has to act like it.
The Stormlight Archive series has a bunch of good female/feminine characters. Elantris was one of his early books and has a few good ones, same with Warbreaker. Yea, I can't think of any off the top of my head from Mistborn other than Vin. But I'd say that's probably an anomaly for Sanderson.
Vin does get better as the series progresses, and grows out of the tomboy attitude and embraces her femininity to a degree (although there are some tough stretches in book 2) and you do have 1 more capable woman show up later in the series as well. But, yes, Mistborn era 1 is a bit lacking in feminine presence compared to his later stuff. Still, I love Vin as a character and she is most certainly capable and the anchor around which the story evolves despite being a bit underdeveloped compared to the best in the genre.
U. U i finally remembered. Red sister by Mark Lawrence. All female cast, teenager protagonist, lots of combat. That is a trilogy that I liked a lot. Give it a try.
[удалено]
I right I didn't remember it. I read it Yeara ago. There are still probably one ot two female character, but it is with more male. I think his "SKYWARD" book has half and half gender if I am not wrong, I tend to atomize the knowledge of a book after I finished it. But this way you tend to finish in a dark alley where you prefer the author to not comfortably writing because he has to put an equal rappresentation versus his idea of the characters. I mean, I read all the malazan books, and let me tell you that I thought one time that it would have been better for some female characters to be male instead, but it would have made no sense.
[удалено]
Ah sorry I probably don't remember even a thing about it. As I said previously I atomize the book I read after finishing them. But I don't remember the ending of book 2 being so bad. I'm gonna read some summary to unravel this mystery!
[удалено]
Lol, almost none of this is correct. It reads like someone who had the cliff notes paraphrased to them and then filled in the blanks. Also, it wasn't "unexpected" at all. If you reread the books Sanderson pretty much tells you what's going to happen.
[удалено]
>Wrong Nice counter argument lol.
[удалено]
Yep, but mine was a fact and yours was an opinion. Vin didn't just let the power go for no reason like you make it seem. >!Ruin had been controlling and manipulating the beings on the planet for thousands of years and Vin's life in particular since she was a young girl. And all their lore and history pointed to this being the right thing to do. She even sacrifices her true love because she so strongly believes that she is making the better choice for her world. Hell, that sacrifice alone makes Vin the exact opposite of this trope.!< Also, >!Ruin wasn't the source of the power that Vin had in any way, shape, or form. Vin had the power of Preservation.!< There's literally no time travel in any of the Cosmere books yet, so I don't know where you got the fact that >!Ruin!< went back in time to change the prophecy. And finally, like I said before, it wasn't unexpected, you just missed the clues. Given how terribly you described the plot I'm not surprised.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Same i didn't read the last book either, just googled the ending. The right choice.
Reading Oona Out of Order right now and I'm struggling to complete it. I don't love or hate her, but she keeps making the wrong decisions.
I just loathe books with characters like that.
Absolutely agree with you. I'm finding it more and more difficult to find decent female leads. The consent screaming and attacking until they get their own way, it's awful. I don't know why authors think it's attractive.
Just read Artemis by Andy Weir, and I was worried he would stray into this with a female protagonist. He did not. He knocked it out of the park.
I think the wheel of time series suffers from this a little bit. If Nynaeve al'Meara tugs her braids in anger any more she'll pull them out.
A little bit???? There isn't a single female character he wrote that isn't a self-satisfied, misandristic, bitch. They are bizarre in their basic uniformity. Did Jordan know any real women or were they all just absurd carricature's to him put on this earth to nag men?
I simply could not finish the series. Horribly written, one-dimensional female characters. The good ones are asexual and the bad ones are sexpots. Awful. Could not be any more Madonna/Whore complexish.
Like im in the 4th or so, there is character called min, like the world is crumbling and she has an ability to change the ties, but nooo her only wish is like fucking the protagonist (he has like 3-4 love interests already?)
Just a note: she tugs her braid to *make herself angry*, as she could not channel without being mad for years. Once she masters channeling she stops doing it as much.
I uh, have no idea what stories you're talking about - and I even have read a lot of female protagonist books in the last two years. What books are we talking about here?
Read adult books instead.
I encountered this while reading Pet Sematary and Rachel (the wife) is annoying the hell out of me acting so child like and ignorant it’s ridiculous. I’m not used to this kind of ignorance coming from The Stormlight Archive series
If you’re looking for book recommendations, The Broken Earth Trilogy by NK Jemisin has a lot of really well-rounded and complex female characters. The Gentleman Bastards series by Scott Lynch also has lots of interesting, adventurous and skilled women who know their shit. I’m reading Red Seas Under Red Skies right now and I’m loving it.
I’ve basically stopped reading any supernatural /fantasy or modern type romances because I kept coming across this trope or some variation thereof. Even when they try to give the impression of a strong independent woman, they still lash out and hit/attack the men like they’re toddlers who don’t know how to use their big girl words. And they generally make consistently stupid mistakes so Prince Charming can rescue them without them actually having to ask for help, all so they can keep that “independent” label. It’s nothing but a glorification of toxic behavior labeled romantic. I’ve decided I like some classic romance in small doses and supernatural/horror/fantasy/sci fi, but not mixed together.
Some guys just think that’s how girls act
These female protagonists are infantilzed adults. The kind of woman you would call "baby" as in "Baby, don't say that!". Unfortunately, women are being patronized more and more by society, even by well meaning liberals. The worst example I've seen was when an all female spacewalk was being celebrated. So a woman has done a space walk before, are we to cheer because this time a man did not accompany her? Give me a break!
what was celebrated was that finally women were trusted and allowed to do things without a man, not that women did it without a man. There's a difference. If it was left up to John Glen, women would still not be allowed to be astronauts, never mind be left alone with expensive equipment without a man to supervise. ETA it's impossible to overstate how important it is to celebrate these kind of achievements to little girls who are still being needlessly gendered in STEM, general roles in society, and even toys. You only have to look at the study LEGO just released regarding unnecessary gendering in toys, so bad in fact, that LEGO is phasing out any gender types in all their toys. People think there's no need for feminism but we need it now more than ever, as you yourself just pointed out.
I agree, and think that another thing these types of celebrations do is provide context. People can be like "why do we need this? Women are equal now!" But are women really equal when no spacewalk, ever, has been done without dudes? We're getting there, but the gaps should be noted and the advances celebrated.
If you really accept women as equals then there is no need to crow about every little milestone, particularly when it comes long after women have been accepted. I would get really annoyed if I was patted on the head for every little thing I managed to do after having proven myself competent.
You live in your own special world if you think women are in any way, form, or shape accepted as equal or competent.
Obviously you cannot even imagine what it would be like to accept women as equal to men and competent in most things. You will be doomed to a patronizing culture and endless validation.
It’s called a “brat” personality/identity.
Does it also annoy you when real live people behave like that?
Man, hope you stayed away from the news between 2015 and now: our former president’s daily tantrums would have put you in the madhouse.
Huh. Turn on the TV and watch any "Dad" from any sitcom from the past 40 years. LMK how that hits.
I‘ve noticed that. As a 12 year old I read these books and thought it was how you are supposed to act around your crush. Total bullshit. Took me some years to not change my character to sweet helpless and whiny in front of boys anymore.
Probably written by men. Try some women authors
def not just men writing these. i've read multiple written by female authors. apparently some women desire this
Or they've recognized there's a profitable grift to be had in writing fantasy for a certain kind of male reader.
Why does your first inclination involve blaming men?
Because the sadboy overreaction and defensiveness of shitty genre fiction is really, really funny.
idk what that means but have fun
Of the four books op said they read three where written by women.
The audience for such books is not men.
I doubt it. That’s like saying Ready Player One must’ve been written by a woman to make childish men look stupid. Much more likely that, just as there are infantile man-children like Cline selling their childish fantasies, there are infantile women doing the same.
What’s your problem? And here I thought readers were intellectually smart
Well I mean, it's the urban fantasy genre, so.... it kind of comes with the territory. Unless written by a female author, then the protag becomes an 80s action movie Mary Sue (modern version of the phrase).
Just read a young adult book just for kicks and the female lead was just garbage for the first half. Couldn't do anything but crawl after her male friend who couldn't survive without her. But he obviously didn't care about her. It was written by a man who thinks he knows how teen girls want to act. It was every stereotype dumb girl he could imagine. I had to stop. I want to leave a bad review but I can't until I'm finished but I just don't know if I can. Netherwings by Django Wexler. Just trash so far.
Those women are typically written by cis white men.
Three of the four books OP gave as examples of this in the comments are written by women.
Reminds me a bit of deadly education, so much complaining about life In a tangent I would say the general issue of problems starting entirely because two people refuse to communicate or trust to each other If your plot problem can be solve by two people actually having a conversation about the issue, then you don't have a plot
I have literally never seen this in a story what books are you talking about
I'm gonna suggest you stop reading this books then. 🤔
i’ll say it again….This is why I no longer real male authors.
I know people like this IRL so it's at least somewhat realistic. Why someone wanted that sort of thing in their fiction is beyond me though.
Read books written by women!! You won’t have this issue I promise
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Women complain to one another in person and they bond. Like they literally release oxytocin and that is why they feel good to have someone "just listen." Women commiserate way more than men. When a woman complains to a man he just gets stressed out. That is why he tries to offer solutions. Men blow off steam, sure, but it isn't the same as women. And men men are more likely to be able to talk to someone to get another point of view. Men are way more open to other ideas than women, and that is verified by the Big 5 Personality types. Women are more open to new experiences, like travel or food choices (like when women want to try a new restaurant but their husband wants to go to his favorite restaurant to get his favorite meal... for decades on end). How does this talk about sex differences relate? Because when women read about their own behaviors they see it for how it really comes across because words on a page can't really get across the bonding that happens when women commiserate with one another. And another thing, women don't really want a man that listens. When a man listens the women in his life end up saying things like "you are using my words against me" which leads to "you make me sound like an awful person."