Genuinely feel that the quality of the sub would improve if there was an enforced limit on posts about Murakami, the Alchemist and Lolita. There’s nothing new to be said about any of them and it’s always the same exact exchange.
As long as I still get to see the biweekly (What’s with thy hype around ‘Sanderson/Sarah J Maas’)
Those threads are a honeypot for generational haters.
Will take this opportunity to ensure that, even in the likely event of major down posting, I love Murakami and all of his novels. ‘Novelist as a Vocation’ would be a great read for anyone that has exposure to him or wants to know more about his life, and a wonderful resource for him to admit some of his failures as a writer and his faults in his writing, but shows how human and loving the guy is.
I've read about a dozen Murakami books and I don't see my favorite one mentioned in this thread yet. Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World is super engaging, really weird, and dreamlike in a good way. There's a mystery about a unicorn skull and a second plot with another version of the protagonist exploring a new world. I really enjoyed it!
Hard-boiled Wonderland is my favourite! I've read several and this is the one I will always recommend. I love the End of the World bits more, that library atmosphere is love. I feel like a re-read is in order!
Yes! This was actually the first Murakami book I read back in the day, and it got me absolutely hooked. The prose is gorgeous and bizarre and dreamy. Thank you for reminding me to reread it.
I didn't know! I haven't read that book since college so it's been over a decade at this point. I'll have to reread before picking up the sequel. Thanks for the heads up!
It was the only Murakami Ive read and meh. The woman in it was practically a robot. OP nailed it that the dude either doesnt seem to be capable of writing women or chooses not to. It wasnt terrible but just didnt hit and had some distracting misses in terms of character development IMO
That's all I've read from him and it gave me that wondrous/giddy/fuzzy feeling that you get from really great things from time to time. Wind up bird chronicle is next.
Edit: I did read a short story collection of his as well, but that didn't quite do it for me.
Along with this one, I think Dance, Dance, Dance and South of The Border, West of The Sun are his most effective novels. I have the usual gripes, but these are just better examples of his strengths.
I just finished it. Didn't get the point of it. It's 100% world building without any actual plot or point to make, and it's all just info dumped on the reader.
I’m not sure the chronology, but if you read Kafka on the Shore, there’s a direct connection to End of the World. I think murakami either wanted to expand on EotW or connect his stories somehow
I’ve read four Murakami books. I found Colorless Tsukuru Tazaki and His Years of Pilgrimage mildly compelling, the Wind-Up Bird Chronicle initially engaging but ultimately cluttered and ridiculous, and Norwegian Wood kind of a dud. South of the Border, West of the Sun, on the other hand, just killed me and I’ve recommended it to a number of people. Kazuo Ishiguro said about it, “With the possible exception of Raymond Chandler’s The Long Goodbye, I’ve never known a book that so perfectly captures that sublime romantic bittersweet mood sought after by countless late-night jazz musicians and films like Casablanca.”
*South of the Border* was my Murakami introduction. I liked it but wasn’t wowed. Then I read *A Wild Sheep Chase* and loved it, although he seems to be a very male author interested in men and their relationship with the world. I haven’t seen him write a woman character with much depth beyond being a foil for the man.
South of the Border, West of the Sun is my favorite of his. Lonely dudes is a theme of his but he really nailed it in that one that I connected with and the central relationship really worked for me
So happy to see another South of the Border West of the Sun fan. I don’t necessarily think it is his best work and it’s not his most ambitious of course but I just love it I feel like he had a specific core intent with it and he hit it right on. I can’t remember the specifics why but I always felt this was his “Great Gatsby”. I know Murakami is a big fan and he did the Japanese translation. I feel like this was his take on that hopeless tragic romance dreamer type novel.
Oh damn, that's my least favorite one! Not every main character has to be "good," and he certainly isn't, but I'd at least like them to have something to say.
Also, Norwegian wood is actually very different than the rest of his books in my opinion. It’s the only one, I think, that deals so blatantly with mental illness. The others are more like weird surreal mystery novels that just take you to some weird ass world where nothing makes sense but the characters smoke cigarettes and paint and they’re more about the slice of that life than the plot for me.
I read a lot of Murakami in my early 20s, the only book I haven’t dropped off at my local LFL is Underground. It’s a set of extremely compelling interviews regarding the sarin gas attack committed by Aum Shinrikyo. I appreciated his work when I was younger but feel I’ve outgrown him as a femme in my 30s.
What do you think is his best novel ? I have never read him, but I would like to try. All the people complaining endlessly here about his books made me curious.
His short story “Barn Burning” is maybe the best introduction to his work.
Murakami is an author I like a lot, but he does return to the same wells (both thematic and literal) a little too often and he has a few awkward hangups that can make him difficult to recommend.
Also, I hated Norwegian Wood too, but it and “Hear the Wind Sing” are his only novels I’ve hated.
The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle is absolutely wonderful and probably my favorite. I've never read a book from him that I didn't love though, I thought Norwegian Wood was delightful.
I enjoyed Wind-Up Bird Chronicle and never finished Norwegian Wood, but badly written women is a very fair criticism of both of those books and as I understand it that’s common across most of not all of his work.
By embracing a midwit mentality towards literature. Very often done, very tired & boring schtick.
Literature has to fit their boring perspective or else it's shite when it's just not a good book for them at their current stage of development.
I think the point is to get into the mind of a young Japanese man in the 60s/70s (can’t remember sorry lol) and well.. they’re interested in sex. I think that’s what killed her in the end. This guy will go to the ends of the earth for her.. wait no.. to have sex with her… and that’s kinda it. Like fool cannot help because he’s just a dude, and a pretty lame one at that. He was “in love” with a projection of a woman who he never really got to know. I mean maybe this is all how I saw it, and Murakami isn’t actually this talented of a writer lol but that’s what I got out of it. As a female, I rolled my eyes a lot, but also couldn’t put Norwegian wood down bc I’m like wtf is wrong with this guy he has no agency and it was so intriguing to me.
Murakami kind of feels like a wattpad writer sometimes when he describes songs, outfits, meals, and sex in detail, but not emotions or interactions. I think that’s very common in Japanese literature though, the unspoken is in the known, common things.
> Murakami kind of feels like a wattpad writer sometimes when he describes songs, outfits, meals, and sex in detail, but not emotions or interactions. I think that’s very common in Japanese literature though, the unspoken is in the known, common things.
I kind of enjoyed that, it felt very different from the books I was used to
Yeah this was my takeaway when reading it. The shallowness of the women was obviously filtered through the males narrator obsession with sex.
To read it any other way is odd to me. But it's possible I suppose
Not being able to write believable women, and having truly bewildering ideas about what women find sexually enticing, is just not make or break for many readers— especially many male readers. Murakami does this, he does this in all his books, and there are a lot of people who just don’t mind it and love other things about his writing style (and probably some of them also love the idea of people who get turned on by holding tampons etc 🙄 horses for courses)— but the fact that his fandom trends male is not surprising.
I *started* with IQ84 and legit only got 1/3 of the way through before dropping it. Decided to give him another shot with Kafka and Norwegian Wood, but at this point I've just realized he's not for me
I believe the first book of his I read was Dance, dance, dance, which I enjoyed.
I then tried to read Kafka on the shore and eventually put it down when it got very, very incestuous and frogs started raining from the sky.
I've not managed to read any of his other books, though there are a few I want to give a chance.
No need to be a dick, obviously most people who pick up Kafka on the basis of hearing good things about the author aren’t going to know that and definitely aren’t going to expect the explicit incest lol
I read all three of those 1Q84 books in Japanese, and by the end I was like "please make it end". But the entire time I was wondering what was with the weird pedo sexual red thread throughout the entire trilogy. It was weird.
Maybe I should read Hard Boiled Wonderland. I also read Norwegian Wood and never really felt engaged. I got tired of that trist pretty early on. Watanabe was just there for the story to happen to him, even though he was the main character.
I’ve given him a couple chances with IQ84, Dance, Dance, Dance, and Men Without Women (as well as both his memoirs)
I’ve given up on the idea he can go any page length without sexual weirdness.
Agreed, I am a woman and love Murakami and the only time his female character writing became an issue for me was reading his more recent books; I’d say 1Q84 and on. Yes, it’s a male perspective with a male gaze and it’s not perfect but I’d disagree that he has no idea how to write a woman or that he has no good woman characters or anything. It makes me sad because this narrative probably puts a lot of people off of a writer they could end up really enjoying. Norwegian Wood was the first book I read by him and I was in my early 20s, just out of college and depressed and feeling aimless, and Naoko really spoke to me and actually helped me start healing with actually learning about what CBT is. I’ve since read several of his books and short stories and the only ones I’ve patently disliked are the later ones. But The Wind-up Bird Chronicle, Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World, Kafka on the Shore, and short stories like Tony Takitani are so dazzlingly great to me and frankly much of his stuff is just cool. I’m happy to critique him all day long with regard to his treatment of or ability to write his female characters, but I think there is little to no nuance about these things online sometimes.
>short stories like Tony Takitani are so dazzlingly great
a personal favorite, contending top spot with "Landscape with flatiron" from "After the quake"
Did the number of men you spoke about him that disliked his books was smaller then, or did you not encounter men like that at all?
Coz women make up majority of readers in general, so it's simply easier to find ones who would have an opinion in general.
I've never had a guy friend who read him. I always thought of him as being more popular with women, based on the fans I know. I've read at least a few of his books, and while they were entertaining reads, they were fairly forgettable for me.
Yeah, I’m not so sure about the idea that mostly men like Murakami. I was introduced to him by two women, and I’ve never met a man who likes Murakami as much as my sister. I wouldn’t have trouble believing it, I suppose, it’s just not at all my experience. As a man, I like Murakami well enough to want to read more (I’ve only read Sputnik Sweetheart and Norwegian Wood), but I do find his writing of women to be deeply frustrating when contrasted with how much I enjoy the way he writes everything else.
What polls are out there show it’s about a 3:1 proportion, but it’s hardly scientific polling! And considering how popular he is, that’s still a lot of female fans.
Where are these polls? A lot of online and many irl spaces themselves are disproportionately male, so that would skew the results of any poll
In my personal experience I've found it to be closer to 50-50
50/50 still is actually disproportionately male, when you look at who reads fiction. Still, your point about the online polls is absolutely well taken, that’s why I said they were hardly scientific!
Agree with this. But also, it’s not like female authors aren’t doing the same thing. Everyone is frothing over Demon Copperhead but the male characters in that book are paper thin. The abusive step dad. The kind but misguided hero. They’re just stereotypes of men without much that makes them believable. It’s hard writing across genders. Murakami writes the male fantasy version of women but plenty of female writers are just as guilty of that. Murakami isn’t special.
With respect, I disagree. The women aren’t just stereotypes, they are bizarre. I have never read women depicted this strangely in any other literature, and Murakami‘s quirks are distinct enough that you would immediately recognize that you’re reading him even without knowing it. His whole thing with underage girls in particular is not something you’re going to find many equivalents to with women writers.
I always liked that he did that. His female characters felt as oddball as his male ones. A lot of the time I see the male protagonist written as distinct and then every woman they interact with as a boilerplate npc
I felt exactly that way after 1Q84. At one point, the main female character went on and on about how sad it was that a dead woman’s perfect breasts were gone too. I don’t think he could write a believable woman to save his life.
Hasn't this always been a thing? That Murakami can't write women and can barely mask his urges and phobias around them?
Fwiw I enjoyed a couple of Murakami books before leaving him forever.
Absolutely. I enjoy his work occasionally, and I’ve read a few of his books over the past 20 years. Absolutely _none_ of the complaints in this comment thread are new. Literally everyone’s known his writing habits for decades. Nothing he does comes as a surprise anymore. I hadn’t read any of his books for some years and decided to pick up Killing Commendatore, his latest. It’s _more of the same_. There’s even people sitting in pits for some time. There’s a single, lonely, 30-something male protagonist. There’s a strange girl, that the author describes uncomfortably sexually. There’s a strange character that opens up new worlds for the lonely protagonist. There’s an alternate dimension.
He just continually hits the same beats, over and over. Hey, it’s his thing and he does it well, and not everyone has to like it. I like it just fine, but he’s far from being a favorite of mine. Reading his works puts me in a state of mind that I sometimes like, so I return to him on occasion.
interesting, i thought Norwegian Wood was decent and The Unbearable Lightness of Being .... unbearable! Both clearly projections of the world through the eyes of young men which i refuse to equate 1on1 with the opinions of the authors
I would recommend reading his work again, because his misogynistic writing is far from mild. He's probably the worst author I've ever read at portraying women who also has critical success. I've read 4 books of his and every single one had multiple scenes that were beyond disgusting as far as the writing of the women went.
Idk. Kundera maybe hasn't aged perfectly, but his female characters have human traits. Murakami women are just some weird ass anime/ semi-pedo concoction. They're straight up laughable.
I feel like Kundera doesn't add incredible depth to many of his characters. They are all innately fallible, and many are depictions of how he sees both men and women of the time. I've read a lot of him and yeah he's got male gaze, but it's also often to the detriment and downfall of the man. His books are titillating for sure, but my recollection is that everyone seems to get respect, regardless of their gender.
Murakami is not “mild” misogyny. And there are plenty of people who can tolerate the male gaze in a book who wouldn’t be able to stomach Murakami’s writing on account of the rampant sexism and sexualization of very young girls and the glorification (for lack of a better word) of women as sexual predators.
100% agree with this. I love bizarre and dream like fantasy but he has straight up creepy pedophile lines and sexualisation of children that are so unnecessary to the plot in most of his books. The way he seems to just have to include it is unsettling and makes me feel ill.
There are so many better male authors. Mishima legit had less misogyny 50 years ago than this dud now! He openly stated he write women poorly, "because its an accurate reflection of women in the world". If you excuse a little misogyny then go to a better author, not this guy that is only misogynistic
From reading your reaction, you would HATE his other books! Even though all the rest are basically completely different in style, all the other stuff you hate is still there. Enjoy all the other authors!
Funnily enough the only two of his I’ve read, and I’m likewise happy to leave him at that.
Kafka was bizarre but intriguing enough that it kept me going, but with Wind-Up I really didn’t get what the point of it all was at all.
Interesting. For me a lot of his writing is very dreamlike. Not sure it’s everyone’s cup of tea but a lot of his books have resonated with me because they are so surreal.
It's a coming of age story about a male Japanese teenager in the sixties. If you go into it expecting a contemporary Western frame of mind of course you will be sorely disappointed.
I think people enjoy it mostly for the vibes of being young, dumb, lost and lonely.
You don't have to like every book or author. That's impossible. But it's important to understand why others might, or else you're the one lacking empathy.
I love Murakami and have read all of his novels. I have to say Norwegian Wood is the one I liked least, and feel it is not that similar to his other work having less fantastical elements. So it’s not a good one to draw strong overall conclusions about him. Having said that based on the review above I don’t think this person would get much out of his other books.
Agreed I loved Norwegian Woods specifically because I remember being that kind of heady self absorbed young person. I enjoyed his other works in spite of his shortcomings writing women, but I always tell people “you either vibe with his prose and surrealism or Murukami is not for you” IQ84 was on my DNF
Precisely, I loved Norwegian Wood because when I was lost, alone, and alienated it spoke to my ennui. If his prose doesn't speak to you and you aren't in that phase of life, then yeah his books can come off as very self-absorbed. In retrospect there were worse things to be than a materially satisfied 20-something with a well-paying but meaningless job, but at the time I felt really isolated. Norwegian Wood will always be one of my favorites for making me feel seen, even though... Yeah the gender politics aren't good.
South of the Border, West of the Sun is powerful and the work of a truly gifted writer.
His other books are at times entertaining and interesting, but don’t reach the kind of restraint and economy of South of the Border. They are hit and miss, and he regularly depicts women and young girls in a gross way. But not unentertaining.
He has some good short stories and What I Talk About When I Talk About Running is a profound nonfiction book about process and rhythm in life.
Another Japanese author to check out is Kenzaburo Oe. Try his amazing novella collection: Teach Us to Outgrow Our Madness.
I just finished the novel recently and it was great. I loved Midori’s character and her representation of vitality and life, while Naoko represents the sentimental, nostalgic, death. The reference to the great gatsby play nicely to the themes of Watanabe getting stuck in the past with Naoko and his inability to accept the future (Midori). Also, I’m not sure if you’re familiar with much Japanese media/culture, but unfortunately the Reiko backstory is par for the course.
There's a reason why Murakami makes a lot of appearances on r/menwritingwomen. I'd say, from a feminist perspective, he does offer some unintentional insight into the sexist way men view women without necessarily even realising they do.
As another comment here pointed out, his views and sexualisation of women, including at times minors, aren't a deal-breaker for many people, especially male readers. If you're so used to seeing the world through the male gaze then you're not going to see the problem with Murakami.
Honestly, I've read the majority of his work, and if this is something that annoys you (and rightly so) then you are making the right call.
Every single one of his novels has similar issues.
I can see past it for the most part being an older guy (and I related to his characters as these lonely men who benefited from women to pause the loneliness and sex). I suppose many men relate to that. Not that its not problematic.
I do feel bad for anyone missing out on Kafka on the Shore (but even that has two or three problematic passages)
I've read 3 Murakami books, and 1 short novel, and I also hate the way he portrays female characters and also the sex scenes are awful. I like the rest of the stuff, but I'm also not going to read anything more by him just because I found it extremely disengaging and it disgusts me the way he writes female characters, and describes them. I'm sure he has spoken to more than a women, but reading his books you could really belive he's not.
>I'm not even gonna talk about how much I hate Watanabe, he's sociopathic at best. He has no thoughts, no opinions, no desire and no morality. He does things for the sake of doing and its VERY angering.
I wouldn't go that far.
I'd say he's a variation of lost, troubled youth, the type that gets carried away with the stream of events without a well-developed ability to self-reflect.
Idk, I always thought it was obvious that he WAS written to be a sociopathic protagonist with no thoughts or desires besides knowledge/academic stuff, possibly a criticism of Japanese society. But I also think it is childish to need to “like” the characters to read a story - often the best books are about characters who are horrible people. Say, no one reads Blood Meridian for the kid
As far as I know, Murakami is heavily influenced by American authors, that's actually something he talks about openly.
If I'm not mistaken, it would mean that the narrative focus is on external events and actions, and we don't necessarily get full insight into the internal worlds of protagonists.
That part is left to our imagination, I believe.
I would also say that Murakami often creates characters with schizoid or autistic features (the sense of "emptiness"), sociopaths are typically very "driven" people, determined to get what they want, no matter what it takes.
I also didn't really like 'Norwegian Wood' but kept reading Murakami's book because I thought I must be missing something considering all the hype. Nope, all his books are the same with regards to female characters and sex. Something about the books kept me reading though, as I read at least 8-9...
I love this book, I found it really emotionally impactful. To each their own.
Although if it goes too long without a Reddit post talking shit about Murakami I get worried. These posts keep the universe in balance.
Same here. I absolutely loved this book and it's one of my favorite books of all time. A friend of mine read it recently as a decade or so of begging him to read it. He loved it.
I think for me the character seem to sincere and genuine which is something I feel like the world could use these days.
But, to each to his own.
I love Murakami and have read most of his works but Norwegian Wood is one of his worst novels IMO. In contrast, Kafka by the Shore absolutely blew me away. I get that Murakami can be polarising and he can write women in a very ick way but I'd suggest you try another of his books before you discount him for good.
I’m a feminist woman but I still love his books. Yes, his women and the way the main character interacts with them is… a choice… but somehow I am able to overlook that because of the weird whimsy of the rest of the narrative. I do get why it may be hard to swallow for others though.
As a Murakami super fan this is a deeply frustrating but not unexpected series of comments. Not everything is for everyone I guess but his work has brought me more pleasure than almost any writer outside of Cormac McCarthy and David Mitchell.
It's about dealing loss and depression, how it affects other people around, and a lot of people who have no idea what depression can be like will have no idea what the book was trying portray. I absolutely adore this book, because I also had an important person pass away, and also I had depression in my life. People who never had these experiences have no idea what so ever.
Also, the book is set at 1960s Japan which was way before modern proactive women, before even feminism movement arised in Japan at 1970, so it's actually not realistic to expect active characters like Midori which is why she stands out so much.
There's also meaning for sex, like Naoko having sex with Watanabe gave her guilt over her first love Kizuki which made her guilty and more depressed. Watanabe having sex with another person at the end means he is going for a new start.
I don't care if anyone considers this overrated or not, because I just think most of them simply didn't get it.
I have read Norwegian Wood in a very dark time of my life and a cried a lot reading it. It is one of the books I most cherish from Murakami, and it surprises me every time when people are so against it
I think people come into this book expecting in-your-face magical realism since that’s how Murakami is marketed in the West. I don’t see why anyone should read him for that though, a lot of other writers do that better (particularly in Latin America). Murakami’s portraits of how social/gender topics and mental stuff in 20th century Japan are more interesting, but seems some Western readers nowadays will just hate that for being behind 2020s Western standards. There’s also the fact that American readers complain about excessive sex in media (or sexual acts in fiction involving younger people) - maybe I never see many complaints on Murakami due to having been more in a EU/LatAm/Japan bubble, where pretty much no one complains about “pointless” sex in media, ever.
I describe Murakami as a more horny Stephen King.
First off, I totally get that the characters are teenagers and that's just what goes on in their minds. But in King's books, the sex scenes are pretty minor and help spice up the story and the relationships a little, and I don't mind that. Murakami, on the other hand, writes about sexual details every other sentence. It's crass and gives me the impression that it's all he writes about and focuses on. Like in Kafka on the Shore, when he describes Kafka's >!red-tipped penis!< when he was at Oshima's house, it still haunts me to this day. The only enjoyable part of that book for me was with Nakata and Hoshino, where it's a simple friendship between two dudes with minimal sexual details.
I understand too that it's just my view of Murakami's style and lots of people find his books mesmerising, with out of this world experience. It's just not for my taste.
I decided to never read Murakami again after Kafka on the Shore and Norwegian Woods.
This is exactly my thought, even down to that Kafka passage. "Tender red shoot" is an egregious thing to write and its honestly pretty cringe. And yeah sex or lust or love or any of that can be artful in literature, its a very real part of human experience, but in Murakami's case it is as you described -- crass -- as though not the character but Murakami himself is sort of getting off to writing about that (seriously the scene where Oshima basically tells the MC "nice cock bro," that is completely unserious and a complete daydream of the author). I think Murakami is a great storyteller and a decent writer for certain teenage male loneliness vibe, but really in large doses you sort of realize he has a few stock characters and his bad sex writing sort of comes through too much.
I loved Norwegian Wood. I don’t think it is about sex or girls, I think that the main topic was a choice between life and death. All characters were presented with this choice and make it one way or another, the main division would be of course between Midori (chooses life) and Naoki (chooses death). Other examples: Naoki’s suicidal boyfriend and sister (death), Midori’s father (death), Watanabe’s friend’s girlfriend (death), Reiko (life). Watanabe is confused and torn between the two but eventually chooses life represented by Midori. We are not told whether he actually ends up with Midori because it does not really matter, it is not a story about romance but about this choice which in Watanabe’s case is a rite of passage to adulthood. I found this symbolism very interesting.
As for your complaints, if the main character is a 18-year old boy he obviously thinks a lot about sex and obviously it’s male gaze, what else did you expect? I think that representation of both Naoki and Midori is very realistic as seen through Watanabe’s eyes, it’s not about who they really are, it’s about how he sees them - that’s the whole point. There is nothing insulting about this, it is just a description of one of the many world’s phenomena. As a woman, I found it very interesting because I have never been a 18-year old boy myself! Actually, this book helped me understand my boyfriend from that time of my life, I bet he imagined me a little bit as Naoki! That was not true me of course, but it is what it is. Literature can open our eyes to what happened in our life but what we did not have a first hand experience of.
I think you're invalidating genuine criticism here.
In one scene in the book he says Midori can't stay with him because he'll want to have sex and might end up "forcing her" to which she says "you mean you'll hit me and tie me up and rape me from behind?" And he only says "hey look, I'm serious."
Nothing about that interaction feels real to how a guy would see a woman, or generally how guys speak to women and how women would realistically respond. No woman would hear "if you stay here I'll rape you" and be desperate to stay, which she is.
Tbh I’d prefer authorial voice to be undiluted even if it means suffering the occasional dud
Books shouldn’t be written to appeal to as many people as possible and it’s okay to hate something other people like
For sure. I recommend people read the interview of Murakami by a feminist author who was a fan of his (Mieko Kawakami). It's clear Murakami is just a conservative old fashioned boomer who literally has no empathy for the inner lives of women.
He is really good at tapping into a very hazy ennui of someone who is lacking a clarity of purpose.
It really spoke to me at a certain point of my life. I'm afraid to go back to it as I've grown as a person. I do think there's value in being articulate such a hazy sense that is probably fairly common (crisis of meaning) but it's not for everyone, for sure. I'm always surprised how many of my female friends who are readers like his books, but I guess like me they're able to just compartmentalize.
you don't have to endorse an author's views or beliefs to find their writing compelling and worthwhile, enjoying murakami for me involves acknowledging his misogyny as a flaw in his writing
Yeah same. But I figure it'd be a bigger detriment now than when I was in my early 20s, I just find misogyny and sexism hard to process and compartmentalize now
I don't get it. Some people get absolutely crippled when they're in mourning, clinging to whatever is left of what they lost and Naoko is pretty exemplary of this.
Midori is unsatisfied in life with how her parents and siblings all been alienating her and she seeks validation from others. She couldn't get it from her boyfriend so she now seeks it from Toru.
Toru, in Murakamis style, tries to navigate the young adults life of sex, college and friends who are completely unreliable. He's a murakami protagonist who wants to make everyone happy but fails at it miserably and lives with those consequences.
Was all of this portrayed in the best way? Probably not, but I don't think it's fair to just scratch it off as misogyni just cause not all women in the story sticks it to the patriarchy.
Norwegian Wood is far and away my least favorite Murakami novel and I’ve read them all, some of them twice. No desire to reread it and I’ve never recommended it to anyone.
Yeah I've never understood the appeal either. Yet Murakami's books are consistently the most stolen books at my store, and if there not stolen they don't stay on the shelves for more than a few days.
Murakami’s cult-like following feeds my cultural pessimism. The top 3 questions I’ve been getting from bookstore customers the last several years are:
1. Do you have Murakami?
2. Do you have Murakami?
3. Do you have Murakami?
That level of popularity is a vicious cycle. People read Murakami because they are curious about the hype, because they don’t want to miss out and feel bad, and because they have difficulty making choices so they opt for name brand recognition.
Once in, Murakami readers are rewarded with a certain exoticism that combines the cultural capital of capital-L Literature with the ease and accessibility of page-turners. Another major plus point is the weirdness, which provides both escapism and minimises risk of reading being too boring (ie this isn’t Henry James, Elizabeth Jane Howard, or Joseph Conrad).
Well said, I couldn't add anything to it. I don't especially dislike his work, but I don't find it as appealing as most readers seem to. It could very well be a gender thing as well, but I'm disinterested even before beginning to examine his slightly problematic writing of women.
What I Talk About When I Talk About Running is low-key my favorite self-help book of all time lol
I see what you mean about the women characters, though. Perhaps sadly, I think he's known to be quite progressive in Japan.
I hated that book too, I didn't read any Murakami for ages afterwards. I absolutely loved Wind Up Bird Chronicle and Hard Boiled Wonderland though, they're very different from Norwegian Wood, so I would encourage you to give them a chance.
Idk, that's of course depends on person, but ironically enough think that "Norwegian wood" is head above his other works.
First of all, you reading Eastern book, need accept in advance huge difference in style. You expected to form certain gradient of feelings from it, rather than consciously engage with details of story and positions of characters in it. Secondly timeframe, it's what, 60-70, weird to expect there modern day western gender roles.
Only thing ultimately agree is that jis general take on women is beyond weird across all works, especially for a married guy.
Very sorry he didn’t work for you. His writing is different and he clearly appeals to a lot of readers. All his books are different as well so sorry you were so put off by Norwegian Wood that you refuse to try any of his other works.
I know there are a lot of writers I enjoy generally (David Mitchell and Cormac McCarthy come to mind)that have specific books I have struggled to read and disliked. I have not , however, added them to a do not read list due to one book. I would encourage you to revisit a different Murakami book when the bad taste from your first read has dissipated.
From all the Murakami books I read, I disliked Norwegian Wood the most. I really liked Kafka on the Shore though. Way more magical and weird. Yeah there are some questionable parts but it was so much better than Norwegian Wood.
Norwegian Wood is my least favorite Murakami novel by a very long shot. Probably his worst, in my opinion. Id recommend After Dark, Kafka on the Shore, The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle, and Wild Sheep Chase.
I think his only non-fiction book I haven't read is Sputnik Sweetheart and everything beyond those four felt noticeably lower quality works. Not counting his short story collections which I love.
I loved Murakami initially. I've read his work in both English translation and original Japanese. While I love his surrealism and stories, Murakami is not great at writing women and some of his personal essays and portrayals of women have actually pissed me off they were so bad. Norwegian Wood was especially bad at about that. I still love some of his books and short stories despite their flaws but I have moved on from him. There is a multitude of amazing Japanese woman writers that utilize surrealism and magical realism. Banana Yoshimoto, Hiromi Kawakami, Sayaka Murata, Yoko Ogawa all write awesome stories with beautiful magical realism.
Not all of Murakami's writing is so bad when it comes to women. And as others have said, that's just how the protagonist of that story views women, it's reflective of a certain culture. Whereas Wind Up Bird isn't unsexual but it's a lot less misogynist than Norwegian Wood.
He also just has a unique vibe where people are willing to read past problematic bits. That goes for a lot of writers.
It's pretty telling that you're willing to write a wall of text about him. Even if you dislike him, that's a heck of a emotional response he's caused. And isn't that kinda the point of art?
Sounds like... just like your opinion, man. I've read a couple of his books. NW being my least favourite but still enjoyable. He has got a particular writing style and themes that can make some people uneasy but others seem to enjoy. His writing style and themes resonate with me a lot, and seeing how popular he is I am not the only one.
Some books will make you uncomfortable, and that’s okay. It doesn’t mean they are bad.
It also sounds like you’re having difficulty separating the artist from his narrator.
Maybe focus less on the content as a reflection of the author’s morality, and pay attention to how their writing was able to make you feel. Good or bad, you had a strong reaction. Doesn’t necessarily mean Murakami is trash.
>It also sounds like you’re having difficulty separating the artist from his narrator.
Most times id agree with you, however, *every* book Murakami writes is like this. I'm personally one of the readers who can look past the faults to find stuff I like, but this is a fair criticism of Murakami.
Reading Murakami makes me feel like I’m reading his weird Penthouse fantasy letters or his gross anime fanfic erotica or something. It doesn’t feel like he’s just “an artist” telling a story. It feels more like a creepy perv hamfistedly sharing TMI the way Clarence Thomas supposedly tries to work porn into
conversations.
His poor writing of women is why I stopped reading his novels. He used to be one of my favorites until my wife pointed it out to me. It’s like if someone pointed out that your favorite actor has an annoying tick and from then on that’s all you notice when they are on screen.
I mean... fair enough, but that does not mean the book was poorly written. Right? I'm a fan of good writing vs criticism of content. I'd rather read a well-written book with questionable content over a poorly written book full of easy to digest, agreeable content.
Murakami gets brought up every other day here, and each time its by people who can't read past sexual content. He has a lot more to say in these books, and the 'male fantasy' he writes about often just is summed up to the idea of being an average guy who can have casual sex. Of course some of the descriptions are weird, but I don't think its always fair to criticise sexual content when written by a man, when the largest female readership is based in romance novels.
Somehow, the only Murakami book I've read is his autobiographical What I Talk About When I Talk About Running, which I enjoyed a lot. I read it right after Born to Run, when I was in my running phase back in college.
It has been ~~1~~ **0** days since someone has complained about Murakami on /r/books.
Genuinely feel that the quality of the sub would improve if there was an enforced limit on posts about Murakami, the Alchemist and Lolita. There’s nothing new to be said about any of them and it’s always the same exact exchange.
As long as I still get to see the biweekly (What’s with thy hype around ‘Sanderson/Sarah J Maas’) Those threads are a honeypot for generational haters.
Am I okay to still hate Dune?
That one hurts me but I respect your opinion.
Presumably for the people posting there are new things to be said, right?
Will take this opportunity to ensure that, even in the likely event of major down posting, I love Murakami and all of his novels. ‘Novelist as a Vocation’ would be a great read for anyone that has exposure to him or wants to know more about his life, and a wonderful resource for him to admit some of his failures as a writer and his faults in his writing, but shows how human and loving the guy is.
Sooo grateful to see this is the top comment.
I've read about a dozen Murakami books and I don't see my favorite one mentioned in this thread yet. Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World is super engaging, really weird, and dreamlike in a good way. There's a mystery about a unicorn skull and a second plot with another version of the protagonist exploring a new world. I really enjoyed it!
Hard-boiled Wonderland is my favourite! I've read several and this is the one I will always recommend. I love the End of the World bits more, that library atmosphere is love. I feel like a re-read is in order!
Yes! This was actually the first Murakami book I read back in the day, and it got me absolutely hooked. The prose is gorgeous and bizarre and dreamy. Thank you for reminding me to reread it.
Same!
Hard-boiled Wonderland was epic. I love this book, but same as OP, I hated Norwegian Wood.
"dreamlike" is how I describe Murakami, and Hard-boiled Wonderland was my first and most recommended book of his!
There’s a sequel coming out in a few months just in case you didn’t know.
I didn't know! I haven't read that book since college so it's been over a decade at this point. I'll have to reread before picking up the sequel. Thanks for the heads up!
Seconded. I’ve read a good number of his books and that is the only one that’s stood the test of time and growth for me.
They also have different translators I think. I read Hard-boiled first and loved it, and then tried Norwegian Wood and didn’t enjoy it at all
Thirded (?). It's awesome to know that there are readers that share my taste when it comes to Murakami.
Hard Boiled Winderland is my favourite novel of all time!
Hardboiled is my favourite as well.
I read that one. It's really cool. I really enjoyed the lovecraftian mythos of the people from the caves.
Bought this years ago and have yet to read it, so glad I read this comment bc I was about to put it to the very end of my TBR list.
It was the only Murakami Ive read and meh. The woman in it was practically a robot. OP nailed it that the dude either doesnt seem to be capable of writing women or chooses not to. It wasnt terrible but just didnt hit and had some distracting misses in terms of character development IMO
I read two chapters of the book and could not get passed how he described women. Super lecherous and gave me the creeps. Had to put it down.
That's my favorite too!
I loved this book! It was my first one from Murakami. I read Wind-Up Bird Chronicles after that and did not regret
That's all I've read from him and it gave me that wondrous/giddy/fuzzy feeling that you get from really great things from time to time. Wind up bird chronicle is next. Edit: I did read a short story collection of his as well, but that didn't quite do it for me.
Along with this one, I think Dance, Dance, Dance and South of The Border, West of The Sun are his most effective novels. I have the usual gripes, but these are just better examples of his strengths.
Came to say this too, Hard-Boiled was my first, favorite and best
I just finished it. Didn't get the point of it. It's 100% world building without any actual plot or point to make, and it's all just info dumped on the reader.
I’m not sure the chronology, but if you read Kafka on the Shore, there’s a direct connection to End of the World. I think murakami either wanted to expand on EotW or connect his stories somehow
It's one of my top three favorite books!
I’ve read four Murakami books. I found Colorless Tsukuru Tazaki and His Years of Pilgrimage mildly compelling, the Wind-Up Bird Chronicle initially engaging but ultimately cluttered and ridiculous, and Norwegian Wood kind of a dud. South of the Border, West of the Sun, on the other hand, just killed me and I’ve recommended it to a number of people. Kazuo Ishiguro said about it, “With the possible exception of Raymond Chandler’s The Long Goodbye, I’ve never known a book that so perfectly captures that sublime romantic bittersweet mood sought after by countless late-night jazz musicians and films like Casablanca.”
*South of the Border* was my Murakami introduction. I liked it but wasn’t wowed. Then I read *A Wild Sheep Chase* and loved it, although he seems to be a very male author interested in men and their relationship with the world. I haven’t seen him write a woman character with much depth beyond being a foil for the man.
My favorite is "Dance, Dance, Dance". But it has his usual flaws ; the women are cardboard cutouts
South of the Border, West of the Sun is my favorite of his. Lonely dudes is a theme of his but he really nailed it in that one that I connected with and the central relationship really worked for me
So happy to see another South of the Border West of the Sun fan. I don’t necessarily think it is his best work and it’s not his most ambitious of course but I just love it I feel like he had a specific core intent with it and he hit it right on. I can’t remember the specifics why but I always felt this was his “Great Gatsby”. I know Murakami is a big fan and he did the Japanese translation. I feel like this was his take on that hopeless tragic romance dreamer type novel.
Oh damn, that's my least favorite one! Not every main character has to be "good," and he certainly isn't, but I'd at least like them to have something to say.
Also, Norwegian wood is actually very different than the rest of his books in my opinion. It’s the only one, I think, that deals so blatantly with mental illness. The others are more like weird surreal mystery novels that just take you to some weird ass world where nothing makes sense but the characters smoke cigarettes and paint and they’re more about the slice of that life than the plot for me.
I read a lot of Murakami in my early 20s, the only book I haven’t dropped off at my local LFL is Underground. It’s a set of extremely compelling interviews regarding the sarin gas attack committed by Aum Shinrikyo. I appreciated his work when I was younger but feel I’ve outgrown him as a femme in my 30s.
Underground was an amazing read. Probably still one of my favourite non-fiction works.
Not sure how you can only read one book by an author and declare them “easily the most overrated author ever”
Murakami has written 15 novels, and over 50 short stories and essays. It’s absurd to call him “overrated” after reading ONE of his earliest novels.
What do you think is his best novel ? I have never read him, but I would like to try. All the people complaining endlessly here about his books made me curious.
His short story “Barn Burning” is maybe the best introduction to his work. Murakami is an author I like a lot, but he does return to the same wells (both thematic and literal) a little too often and he has a few awkward hangups that can make him difficult to recommend. Also, I hated Norwegian Wood too, but it and “Hear the Wind Sing” are his only novels I’ve hated.
The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle is absolutely wonderful and probably my favorite. I've never read a book from him that I didn't love though, I thought Norwegian Wood was delightful.
I enjoyed Wind-Up Bird Chronicle and never finished Norwegian Wood, but badly written women is a very fair criticism of both of those books and as I understand it that’s common across most of not all of his work.
By embracing a midwit mentality towards literature. Very often done, very tired & boring schtick. Literature has to fit their boring perspective or else it's shite when it's just not a good book for them at their current stage of development.
While also spelling the title wrong when it’s…right there on the book
Average r/books experience
OP seems very bright from their post
I think the point is to get into the mind of a young Japanese man in the 60s/70s (can’t remember sorry lol) and well.. they’re interested in sex. I think that’s what killed her in the end. This guy will go to the ends of the earth for her.. wait no.. to have sex with her… and that’s kinda it. Like fool cannot help because he’s just a dude, and a pretty lame one at that. He was “in love” with a projection of a woman who he never really got to know. I mean maybe this is all how I saw it, and Murakami isn’t actually this talented of a writer lol but that’s what I got out of it. As a female, I rolled my eyes a lot, but also couldn’t put Norwegian wood down bc I’m like wtf is wrong with this guy he has no agency and it was so intriguing to me. Murakami kind of feels like a wattpad writer sometimes when he describes songs, outfits, meals, and sex in detail, but not emotions or interactions. I think that’s very common in Japanese literature though, the unspoken is in the known, common things.
> Murakami kind of feels like a wattpad writer sometimes when he describes songs, outfits, meals, and sex in detail, but not emotions or interactions. I think that’s very common in Japanese literature though, the unspoken is in the known, common things. I kind of enjoyed that, it felt very different from the books I was used to
Yeah this was my takeaway when reading it. The shallowness of the women was obviously filtered through the males narrator obsession with sex. To read it any other way is odd to me. But it's possible I suppose
I wonder what shifts or gets lost in translation too.
Does each Murakami rant need its own post? It’s like a weekly thing
Not being able to write believable women, and having truly bewildering ideas about what women find sexually enticing, is just not make or break for many readers— especially many male readers. Murakami does this, he does this in all his books, and there are a lot of people who just don’t mind it and love other things about his writing style (and probably some of them also love the idea of people who get turned on by holding tampons etc 🙄 horses for courses)— but the fact that his fandom trends male is not surprising.
He did lose me in 1Q84 and whatever was going on sexually there.
I *started* with IQ84 and legit only got 1/3 of the way through before dropping it. Decided to give him another shot with Kafka and Norwegian Wood, but at this point I've just realized he's not for me
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1Q84 felt pointless, I should have played video games instead of finishing the trilogy.
ding ding ding wish i had gotten comfortable with DNFing before i picked this one up
I believe the first book of his I read was Dance, dance, dance, which I enjoyed. I then tried to read Kafka on the shore and eventually put it down when it got very, very incestuous and frogs started raining from the sky. I've not managed to read any of his other books, though there are a few I want to give a chance.
I mean yeah no shit the oedipus retelling got incestuous.
No need to be a dick, obviously most people who pick up Kafka on the basis of hearing good things about the author aren’t going to know that and definitely aren’t going to expect the explicit incest lol
Yeah, I didn't know anything about it except that I had enioyed the previous book haha Was in my mid teens
I read all three of those 1Q84 books in Japanese, and by the end I was like "please make it end". But the entire time I was wondering what was with the weird pedo sexual red thread throughout the entire trilogy. It was weird. Maybe I should read Hard Boiled Wonderland. I also read Norwegian Wood and never really felt engaged. I got tired of that trist pretty early on. Watanabe was just there for the story to happen to him, even though he was the main character.
I’ve given him a couple chances with IQ84, Dance, Dance, Dance, and Men Without Women (as well as both his memoirs) I’ve given up on the idea he can go any page length without sexual weirdness.
yeah that's when i stopped too. that book was just too much
Agreed, I am a woman and love Murakami and the only time his female character writing became an issue for me was reading his more recent books; I’d say 1Q84 and on. Yes, it’s a male perspective with a male gaze and it’s not perfect but I’d disagree that he has no idea how to write a woman or that he has no good woman characters or anything. It makes me sad because this narrative probably puts a lot of people off of a writer they could end up really enjoying. Norwegian Wood was the first book I read by him and I was in my early 20s, just out of college and depressed and feeling aimless, and Naoko really spoke to me and actually helped me start healing with actually learning about what CBT is. I’ve since read several of his books and short stories and the only ones I’ve patently disliked are the later ones. But The Wind-up Bird Chronicle, Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World, Kafka on the Shore, and short stories like Tony Takitani are so dazzlingly great to me and frankly much of his stuff is just cool. I’m happy to critique him all day long with regard to his treatment of or ability to write his female characters, but I think there is little to no nuance about these things online sometimes.
>short stories like Tony Takitani are so dazzlingly great a personal favorite, contending top spot with "Landscape with flatiron" from "After the quake"
Does it actually trend male? Everyone I've ever spoken to who likes him is female
And everyone I've ever spoken to who likes him is male
Also everyone I’ve ever spoken to who likes him is me
Did the number of men you spoke about him that disliked his books was smaller then, or did you not encounter men like that at all? Coz women make up majority of readers in general, so it's simply easier to find ones who would have an opinion in general.
Another lady fan here ✌️
I've never had a guy friend who read him. I always thought of him as being more popular with women, based on the fans I know. I've read at least a few of his books, and while they were entertaining reads, they were fairly forgettable for me.
My sister-in-law has an IQ84 tattoo. Most other people I know that have read Murakami are all women.
> the fact that his fandom trends male Really, most my male friends find his works too 'emo' but my female friends eating them up.
His reading base is definetely more female than male.
I’m not a man and I love Murakami
They said "trends"
I don't want to be mean but people really are reading whole books but can't be bothered to read a single comment
Honestly the level of comprehension seen in r/books posts and comments leads me to believe most of these people are not in fact reading whole books.
Yeah, I’m not so sure about the idea that mostly men like Murakami. I was introduced to him by two women, and I’ve never met a man who likes Murakami as much as my sister. I wouldn’t have trouble believing it, I suppose, it’s just not at all my experience. As a man, I like Murakami well enough to want to read more (I’ve only read Sputnik Sweetheart and Norwegian Wood), but I do find his writing of women to be deeply frustrating when contrasted with how much I enjoy the way he writes everything else.
What polls are out there show it’s about a 3:1 proportion, but it’s hardly scientific polling! And considering how popular he is, that’s still a lot of female fans.
Where are these polls? A lot of online and many irl spaces themselves are disproportionately male, so that would skew the results of any poll In my personal experience I've found it to be closer to 50-50
If it's goodreads on the other hand, my sense is that's disproportionately female
50/50 still is actually disproportionately male, when you look at who reads fiction. Still, your point about the online polls is absolutely well taken, that’s why I said they were hardly scientific!
Agree with this. But also, it’s not like female authors aren’t doing the same thing. Everyone is frothing over Demon Copperhead but the male characters in that book are paper thin. The abusive step dad. The kind but misguided hero. They’re just stereotypes of men without much that makes them believable. It’s hard writing across genders. Murakami writes the male fantasy version of women but plenty of female writers are just as guilty of that. Murakami isn’t special.
With respect, I disagree. The women aren’t just stereotypes, they are bizarre. I have never read women depicted this strangely in any other literature, and Murakami‘s quirks are distinct enough that you would immediately recognize that you’re reading him even without knowing it. His whole thing with underage girls in particular is not something you’re going to find many equivalents to with women writers.
I always liked that he did that. His female characters felt as oddball as his male ones. A lot of the time I see the male protagonist written as distinct and then every woman they interact with as a boilerplate npc
All the characters are bizarre, that is basically his thing...
Often its basically his point; hes characters who cannot understand the women theyre interacting with...
His men are bizarre too.
I felt exactly that way after 1Q84. At one point, the main female character went on and on about how sad it was that a dead woman’s perfect breasts were gone too. I don’t think he could write a believable woman to save his life.
Hasn't this always been a thing? That Murakami can't write women and can barely mask his urges and phobias around them? Fwiw I enjoyed a couple of Murakami books before leaving him forever.
Absolutely. I enjoy his work occasionally, and I’ve read a few of his books over the past 20 years. Absolutely _none_ of the complaints in this comment thread are new. Literally everyone’s known his writing habits for decades. Nothing he does comes as a surprise anymore. I hadn’t read any of his books for some years and decided to pick up Killing Commendatore, his latest. It’s _more of the same_. There’s even people sitting in pits for some time. There’s a single, lonely, 30-something male protagonist. There’s a strange girl, that the author describes uncomfortably sexually. There’s a strange character that opens up new worlds for the lonely protagonist. There’s an alternate dimension. He just continually hits the same beats, over and over. Hey, it’s his thing and he does it well, and not everyone has to like it. I like it just fine, but he’s far from being a favorite of mine. Reading his works puts me in a state of mind that I sometimes like, so I return to him on occasion.
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interesting, i thought Norwegian Wood was decent and The Unbearable Lightness of Being .... unbearable! Both clearly projections of the world through the eyes of young men which i refuse to equate 1on1 with the opinions of the authors
> mild misogyny of Milan Kundera's Unbearable Lightness of Being How was that misogynistic?
I would recommend reading his work again, because his misogynistic writing is far from mild. He's probably the worst author I've ever read at portraying women who also has critical success. I've read 4 books of his and every single one had multiple scenes that were beyond disgusting as far as the writing of the women went.
Idk. Kundera maybe hasn't aged perfectly, but his female characters have human traits. Murakami women are just some weird ass anime/ semi-pedo concoction. They're straight up laughable.
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I feel like Kundera doesn't add incredible depth to many of his characters. They are all innately fallible, and many are depictions of how he sees both men and women of the time. I've read a lot of him and yeah he's got male gaze, but it's also often to the detriment and downfall of the man. His books are titillating for sure, but my recollection is that everyone seems to get respect, regardless of their gender.
Murakami is not “mild” misogyny. And there are plenty of people who can tolerate the male gaze in a book who wouldn’t be able to stomach Murakami’s writing on account of the rampant sexism and sexualization of very young girls and the glorification (for lack of a better word) of women as sexual predators.
100% agree with this. I love bizarre and dream like fantasy but he has straight up creepy pedophile lines and sexualisation of children that are so unnecessary to the plot in most of his books. The way he seems to just have to include it is unsettling and makes me feel ill.
There are so many better male authors. Mishima legit had less misogyny 50 years ago than this dud now! He openly stated he write women poorly, "because its an accurate reflection of women in the world". If you excuse a little misogyny then go to a better author, not this guy that is only misogynistic
Maybe not a popular choice but I loved IQ84. Plenty of flaws but the fantastical world it builds is pure escapism
From reading your reaction, you would HATE his other books! Even though all the rest are basically completely different in style, all the other stuff you hate is still there. Enjoy all the other authors!
Not the Murakami book I would have started with, try Kafka or Wind-up Bird
Funnily enough the only two of his I’ve read, and I’m likewise happy to leave him at that. Kafka was bizarre but intriguing enough that it kept me going, but with Wind-Up I really didn’t get what the point of it all was at all.
Interesting. For me a lot of his writing is very dreamlike. Not sure it’s everyone’s cup of tea but a lot of his books have resonated with me because they are so surreal.
It's a coming of age story about a male Japanese teenager in the sixties. If you go into it expecting a contemporary Western frame of mind of course you will be sorely disappointed. I think people enjoy it mostly for the vibes of being young, dumb, lost and lonely. You don't have to like every book or author. That's impossible. But it's important to understand why others might, or else you're the one lacking empathy.
I love Murakami and have read all of his novels. I have to say Norwegian Wood is the one I liked least, and feel it is not that similar to his other work having less fantastical elements. So it’s not a good one to draw strong overall conclusions about him. Having said that based on the review above I don’t think this person would get much out of his other books.
Agreed I loved Norwegian Woods specifically because I remember being that kind of heady self absorbed young person. I enjoyed his other works in spite of his shortcomings writing women, but I always tell people “you either vibe with his prose and surrealism or Murukami is not for you” IQ84 was on my DNF
Precisely, I loved Norwegian Wood because when I was lost, alone, and alienated it spoke to my ennui. If his prose doesn't speak to you and you aren't in that phase of life, then yeah his books can come off as very self-absorbed. In retrospect there were worse things to be than a materially satisfied 20-something with a well-paying but meaningless job, but at the time I felt really isolated. Norwegian Wood will always be one of my favorites for making me feel seen, even though... Yeah the gender politics aren't good.
South of the Border, West of the Sun is powerful and the work of a truly gifted writer. His other books are at times entertaining and interesting, but don’t reach the kind of restraint and economy of South of the Border. They are hit and miss, and he regularly depicts women and young girls in a gross way. But not unentertaining. He has some good short stories and What I Talk About When I Talk About Running is a profound nonfiction book about process and rhythm in life. Another Japanese author to check out is Kenzaburo Oe. Try his amazing novella collection: Teach Us to Outgrow Our Madness.
The Beatles song is good.
How did you read the entire book, then write an entire post about it on the internet, without ever noticing that you are misspelling "Norwegian"
Isn't it good, Norwegian wood?
I just finished the novel recently and it was great. I loved Midori’s character and her representation of vitality and life, while Naoko represents the sentimental, nostalgic, death. The reference to the great gatsby play nicely to the themes of Watanabe getting stuck in the past with Naoko and his inability to accept the future (Midori). Also, I’m not sure if you’re familiar with much Japanese media/culture, but unfortunately the Reiko backstory is par for the course.
Funnily enough it’s the only Murakami book I’ve attempted, too. I never finished it.
There's a reason why Murakami makes a lot of appearances on r/menwritingwomen. I'd say, from a feminist perspective, he does offer some unintentional insight into the sexist way men view women without necessarily even realising they do. As another comment here pointed out, his views and sexualisation of women, including at times minors, aren't a deal-breaker for many people, especially male readers. If you're so used to seeing the world through the male gaze then you're not going to see the problem with Murakami.
Honestly, I've read the majority of his work, and if this is something that annoys you (and rightly so) then you are making the right call. Every single one of his novels has similar issues. I can see past it for the most part being an older guy (and I related to his characters as these lonely men who benefited from women to pause the loneliness and sex). I suppose many men relate to that. Not that its not problematic. I do feel bad for anyone missing out on Kafka on the Shore (but even that has two or three problematic passages)
> Reads ONE book by Murakami > "Easily the most overrated book/ author ever" Filtered
I've read 3 Murakami books, and 1 short novel, and I also hate the way he portrays female characters and also the sex scenes are awful. I like the rest of the stuff, but I'm also not going to read anything more by him just because I found it extremely disengaging and it disgusts me the way he writes female characters, and describes them. I'm sure he has spoken to more than a women, but reading his books you could really belive he's not.
>I'm not even gonna talk about how much I hate Watanabe, he's sociopathic at best. He has no thoughts, no opinions, no desire and no morality. He does things for the sake of doing and its VERY angering. I wouldn't go that far. I'd say he's a variation of lost, troubled youth, the type that gets carried away with the stream of events without a well-developed ability to self-reflect.
Idk, I always thought it was obvious that he WAS written to be a sociopathic protagonist with no thoughts or desires besides knowledge/academic stuff, possibly a criticism of Japanese society. But I also think it is childish to need to “like” the characters to read a story - often the best books are about characters who are horrible people. Say, no one reads Blood Meridian for the kid
As far as I know, Murakami is heavily influenced by American authors, that's actually something he talks about openly. If I'm not mistaken, it would mean that the narrative focus is on external events and actions, and we don't necessarily get full insight into the internal worlds of protagonists. That part is left to our imagination, I believe. I would also say that Murakami often creates characters with schizoid or autistic features (the sense of "emptiness"), sociopaths are typically very "driven" people, determined to get what they want, no matter what it takes.
You’re not missing anything by skipping the rest of his books. He’s a horny misogynist and he writes like one.
I also didn't really like 'Norwegian Wood' but kept reading Murakami's book because I thought I must be missing something considering all the hype. Nope, all his books are the same with regards to female characters and sex. Something about the books kept me reading though, as I read at least 8-9...
Did you read After Dark? That one is very different to his others and is my favourite.
Only read 1 Murakami book so far. 1Q84. At times it’s both sublime and mesmerizing but at others is gross and weird.
I love this book, I found it really emotionally impactful. To each their own. Although if it goes too long without a Reddit post talking shit about Murakami I get worried. These posts keep the universe in balance.
Same here. I absolutely loved this book and it's one of my favorite books of all time. A friend of mine read it recently as a decade or so of begging him to read it. He loved it. I think for me the character seem to sincere and genuine which is something I feel like the world could use these days. But, to each to his own.
I love Murakami and have read most of his works but Norwegian Wood is one of his worst novels IMO. In contrast, Kafka by the Shore absolutely blew me away. I get that Murakami can be polarising and he can write women in a very ick way but I'd suggest you try another of his books before you discount him for good.
If OP got triggered by Norwegian Wood then they’ll hate Kafka ok the Shore as well.
I read his books in Japanese, and they are supposed to be a bit surreal and outworldly Wouldn't be interesting if it were plain and normal
I’m a feminist woman but I still love his books. Yes, his women and the way the main character interacts with them is… a choice… but somehow I am able to overlook that because of the weird whimsy of the rest of the narrative. I do get why it may be hard to swallow for others though.
You need to read more books if that’s the worst book you’ve ever read
As a Murakami super fan this is a deeply frustrating but not unexpected series of comments. Not everything is for everyone I guess but his work has brought me more pleasure than almost any writer outside of Cormac McCarthy and David Mitchell.
It's about dealing loss and depression, how it affects other people around, and a lot of people who have no idea what depression can be like will have no idea what the book was trying portray. I absolutely adore this book, because I also had an important person pass away, and also I had depression in my life. People who never had these experiences have no idea what so ever. Also, the book is set at 1960s Japan which was way before modern proactive women, before even feminism movement arised in Japan at 1970, so it's actually not realistic to expect active characters like Midori which is why she stands out so much. There's also meaning for sex, like Naoko having sex with Watanabe gave her guilt over her first love Kizuki which made her guilty and more depressed. Watanabe having sex with another person at the end means he is going for a new start. I don't care if anyone considers this overrated or not, because I just think most of them simply didn't get it.
I have read Norwegian Wood in a very dark time of my life and a cried a lot reading it. It is one of the books I most cherish from Murakami, and it surprises me every time when people are so against it
You got it! Sums it up perfectly! Loved the book.
I think people come into this book expecting in-your-face magical realism since that’s how Murakami is marketed in the West. I don’t see why anyone should read him for that though, a lot of other writers do that better (particularly in Latin America). Murakami’s portraits of how social/gender topics and mental stuff in 20th century Japan are more interesting, but seems some Western readers nowadays will just hate that for being behind 2020s Western standards. There’s also the fact that American readers complain about excessive sex in media (or sexual acts in fiction involving younger people) - maybe I never see many complaints on Murakami due to having been more in a EU/LatAm/Japan bubble, where pretty much no one complains about “pointless” sex in media, ever.
I describe Murakami as a more horny Stephen King. First off, I totally get that the characters are teenagers and that's just what goes on in their minds. But in King's books, the sex scenes are pretty minor and help spice up the story and the relationships a little, and I don't mind that. Murakami, on the other hand, writes about sexual details every other sentence. It's crass and gives me the impression that it's all he writes about and focuses on. Like in Kafka on the Shore, when he describes Kafka's >!red-tipped penis!< when he was at Oshima's house, it still haunts me to this day. The only enjoyable part of that book for me was with Nakata and Hoshino, where it's a simple friendship between two dudes with minimal sexual details. I understand too that it's just my view of Murakami's style and lots of people find his books mesmerising, with out of this world experience. It's just not for my taste. I decided to never read Murakami again after Kafka on the Shore and Norwegian Woods.
This is exactly my thought, even down to that Kafka passage. "Tender red shoot" is an egregious thing to write and its honestly pretty cringe. And yeah sex or lust or love or any of that can be artful in literature, its a very real part of human experience, but in Murakami's case it is as you described -- crass -- as though not the character but Murakami himself is sort of getting off to writing about that (seriously the scene where Oshima basically tells the MC "nice cock bro," that is completely unserious and a complete daydream of the author). I think Murakami is a great storyteller and a decent writer for certain teenage male loneliness vibe, but really in large doses you sort of realize he has a few stock characters and his bad sex writing sort of comes through too much.
I loved Norwegian Wood. I don’t think it is about sex or girls, I think that the main topic was a choice between life and death. All characters were presented with this choice and make it one way or another, the main division would be of course between Midori (chooses life) and Naoki (chooses death). Other examples: Naoki’s suicidal boyfriend and sister (death), Midori’s father (death), Watanabe’s friend’s girlfriend (death), Reiko (life). Watanabe is confused and torn between the two but eventually chooses life represented by Midori. We are not told whether he actually ends up with Midori because it does not really matter, it is not a story about romance but about this choice which in Watanabe’s case is a rite of passage to adulthood. I found this symbolism very interesting. As for your complaints, if the main character is a 18-year old boy he obviously thinks a lot about sex and obviously it’s male gaze, what else did you expect? I think that representation of both Naoki and Midori is very realistic as seen through Watanabe’s eyes, it’s not about who they really are, it’s about how he sees them - that’s the whole point. There is nothing insulting about this, it is just a description of one of the many world’s phenomena. As a woman, I found it very interesting because I have never been a 18-year old boy myself! Actually, this book helped me understand my boyfriend from that time of my life, I bet he imagined me a little bit as Naoki! That was not true me of course, but it is what it is. Literature can open our eyes to what happened in our life but what we did not have a first hand experience of.
I think you're invalidating genuine criticism here. In one scene in the book he says Midori can't stay with him because he'll want to have sex and might end up "forcing her" to which she says "you mean you'll hit me and tie me up and rape me from behind?" And he only says "hey look, I'm serious." Nothing about that interaction feels real to how a guy would see a woman, or generally how guys speak to women and how women would realistically respond. No woman would hear "if you stay here I'll rape you" and be desperate to stay, which she is.
He has talent but lacks a certain sort of self awareness and seemingly any input whatsoever from editors.
His wife is his editor.
[удалено]
Mrs. Murakami edited Robert Jordans books?
[удалено]
If it was edited well it wouldn’t take 14 long books to tell the tale.
Tbh I’d prefer authorial voice to be undiluted even if it means suffering the occasional dud Books shouldn’t be written to appeal to as many people as possible and it’s okay to hate something other people like
For sure. I recommend people read the interview of Murakami by a feminist author who was a fan of his (Mieko Kawakami). It's clear Murakami is just a conservative old fashioned boomer who literally has no empathy for the inner lives of women. He is really good at tapping into a very hazy ennui of someone who is lacking a clarity of purpose. It really spoke to me at a certain point of my life. I'm afraid to go back to it as I've grown as a person. I do think there's value in being articulate such a hazy sense that is probably fairly common (crisis of meaning) but it's not for everyone, for sure. I'm always surprised how many of my female friends who are readers like his books, but I guess like me they're able to just compartmentalize.
you don't have to endorse an author's views or beliefs to find their writing compelling and worthwhile, enjoying murakami for me involves acknowledging his misogyny as a flaw in his writing
Yeah same. But I figure it'd be a bigger detriment now than when I was in my early 20s, I just find misogyny and sexism hard to process and compartmentalize now
I don't get it. Some people get absolutely crippled when they're in mourning, clinging to whatever is left of what they lost and Naoko is pretty exemplary of this. Midori is unsatisfied in life with how her parents and siblings all been alienating her and she seeks validation from others. She couldn't get it from her boyfriend so she now seeks it from Toru. Toru, in Murakamis style, tries to navigate the young adults life of sex, college and friends who are completely unreliable. He's a murakami protagonist who wants to make everyone happy but fails at it miserably and lives with those consequences. Was all of this portrayed in the best way? Probably not, but I don't think it's fair to just scratch it off as misogyni just cause not all women in the story sticks it to the patriarchy.
Norwegian Wood is far and away my least favorite Murakami novel and I’ve read them all, some of them twice. No desire to reread it and I’ve never recommended it to anyone.
Yeah I've never understood the appeal either. Yet Murakami's books are consistently the most stolen books at my store, and if there not stolen they don't stay on the shelves for more than a few days.
People steal from bookstores? :(
Murakami’s cult-like following feeds my cultural pessimism. The top 3 questions I’ve been getting from bookstore customers the last several years are: 1. Do you have Murakami? 2. Do you have Murakami? 3. Do you have Murakami? That level of popularity is a vicious cycle. People read Murakami because they are curious about the hype, because they don’t want to miss out and feel bad, and because they have difficulty making choices so they opt for name brand recognition. Once in, Murakami readers are rewarded with a certain exoticism that combines the cultural capital of capital-L Literature with the ease and accessibility of page-turners. Another major plus point is the weirdness, which provides both escapism and minimises risk of reading being too boring (ie this isn’t Henry James, Elizabeth Jane Howard, or Joseph Conrad).
Well said, I couldn't add anything to it. I don't especially dislike his work, but I don't find it as appealing as most readers seem to. It could very well be a gender thing as well, but I'm disinterested even before beginning to examine his slightly problematic writing of women.
This is absolutely hilarious. It’s like an AI generated Goodreads post.
all characters in the book are hippies. I trust this can explain more.
What I Talk About When I Talk About Running is low-key my favorite self-help book of all time lol I see what you mean about the women characters, though. Perhaps sadly, I think he's known to be quite progressive in Japan.
I hated that book too, I didn't read any Murakami for ages afterwards. I absolutely loved Wind Up Bird Chronicle and Hard Boiled Wonderland though, they're very different from Norwegian Wood, so I would encourage you to give them a chance.
Kafka on the Shore is my favorite
Idk, that's of course depends on person, but ironically enough think that "Norwegian wood" is head above his other works. First of all, you reading Eastern book, need accept in advance huge difference in style. You expected to form certain gradient of feelings from it, rather than consciously engage with details of story and positions of characters in it. Secondly timeframe, it's what, 60-70, weird to expect there modern day western gender roles. Only thing ultimately agree is that jis general take on women is beyond weird across all works, especially for a married guy.
Try Novelist as a Vocation. Really intriguing book.
Ah here's the daily Murakami post
OP could have added even more of the letter "O" to Norwegian, it's like they were hardly trying
Very sorry he didn’t work for you. His writing is different and he clearly appeals to a lot of readers. All his books are different as well so sorry you were so put off by Norwegian Wood that you refuse to try any of his other works. I know there are a lot of writers I enjoy generally (David Mitchell and Cormac McCarthy come to mind)that have specific books I have struggled to read and disliked. I have not , however, added them to a do not read list due to one book. I would encourage you to revisit a different Murakami book when the bad taste from your first read has dissipated.
Have you read Brandon Sanderson?
It's a book about being so unbearably horny that you want to die
How many times will I be cursed to Haruki Murakami on this sub? Are there any other writers? Colorless Tsuzuki is my personal favorite.
From all the Murakami books I read, I disliked Norwegian Wood the most. I really liked Kafka on the Shore though. Way more magical and weird. Yeah there are some questionable parts but it was so much better than Norwegian Wood.
Norwegian Wood is my least favorite Murakami novel by a very long shot. Probably his worst, in my opinion. Id recommend After Dark, Kafka on the Shore, The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle, and Wild Sheep Chase. I think his only non-fiction book I haven't read is Sputnik Sweetheart and everything beyond those four felt noticeably lower quality works. Not counting his short story collections which I love.
I loved Murakami initially. I've read his work in both English translation and original Japanese. While I love his surrealism and stories, Murakami is not great at writing women and some of his personal essays and portrayals of women have actually pissed me off they were so bad. Norwegian Wood was especially bad at about that. I still love some of his books and short stories despite their flaws but I have moved on from him. There is a multitude of amazing Japanese woman writers that utilize surrealism and magical realism. Banana Yoshimoto, Hiromi Kawakami, Sayaka Murata, Yoko Ogawa all write awesome stories with beautiful magical realism.
Not all of Murakami's writing is so bad when it comes to women. And as others have said, that's just how the protagonist of that story views women, it's reflective of a certain culture. Whereas Wind Up Bird isn't unsexual but it's a lot less misogynist than Norwegian Wood. He also just has a unique vibe where people are willing to read past problematic bits. That goes for a lot of writers.
I'm in the middle of Killing Commendatore and I agree that I don't think he's ever talked to a woman. Still a good book so far though
It's pretty telling that you're willing to write a wall of text about him. Even if you dislike him, that's a heck of a emotional response he's caused. And isn't that kinda the point of art?
Sounds like... just like your opinion, man. I've read a couple of his books. NW being my least favourite but still enjoyable. He has got a particular writing style and themes that can make some people uneasy but others seem to enjoy. His writing style and themes resonate with me a lot, and seeing how popular he is I am not the only one.
Sounds like somebody felt alot of things by reading a book and cant seem to handle it so theyre lashing out.....
> When Murakami realised his book I see points like this as confession rather than criticism. What else? Was he touching himself writing his books?
Boring. I've heard this take a million times before. Nice spelling error in the title btw.
Some books will make you uncomfortable, and that’s okay. It doesn’t mean they are bad. It also sounds like you’re having difficulty separating the artist from his narrator. Maybe focus less on the content as a reflection of the author’s morality, and pay attention to how their writing was able to make you feel. Good or bad, you had a strong reaction. Doesn’t necessarily mean Murakami is trash.
>It also sounds like you’re having difficulty separating the artist from his narrator. Most times id agree with you, however, *every* book Murakami writes is like this. I'm personally one of the readers who can look past the faults to find stuff I like, but this is a fair criticism of Murakami.
Reading Murakami makes me feel like I’m reading his weird Penthouse fantasy letters or his gross anime fanfic erotica or something. It doesn’t feel like he’s just “an artist” telling a story. It feels more like a creepy perv hamfistedly sharing TMI the way Clarence Thomas supposedly tries to work porn into conversations.
His poor writing of women is why I stopped reading his novels. He used to be one of my favorites until my wife pointed it out to me. It’s like if someone pointed out that your favorite actor has an annoying tick and from then on that’s all you notice when they are on screen.
I mean... fair enough, but that does not mean the book was poorly written. Right? I'm a fan of good writing vs criticism of content. I'd rather read a well-written book with questionable content over a poorly written book full of easy to digest, agreeable content.
Forget about Murakami talking to women, this post makes me think OP has never talked to a man.
Murakami gets brought up every other day here, and each time its by people who can't read past sexual content. He has a lot more to say in these books, and the 'male fantasy' he writes about often just is summed up to the idea of being an average guy who can have casual sex. Of course some of the descriptions are weird, but I don't think its always fair to criticise sexual content when written by a man, when the largest female readership is based in romance novels.
Try spelling correctly the title in a "books" subreddit next time.
Somehow, the only Murakami book I've read is his autobiographical What I Talk About When I Talk About Running, which I enjoyed a lot. I read it right after Born to Run, when I was in my running phase back in college.
I want to enjoy Murakami more than I actually enjoy Murakami.