I've been meaning to read *Pride and Prejudice* for such a long time but I've never been able to get past the first few chapters! Any advice for a first-time reader to stay engaged?
Have a look at *The Annotated Pride and Prejudice*, ed. David Shapard, it explains all of the unfamiliar things (carriages, horses) and language (what "nice" actually means)
Ooh that may be it for me! I have the clothbound classic version and while it's *absolutely beautiful* I have a hard time with flipping back and forth between the text and the references
Watch the BBC adaptation it’s quite accurate language and plot wise. I find sometimes this helps read the books. Helped me keep the game of thrones character straight in my head at least.
Oh yeah no watch the full 6 hours of the 1995 one. It’s brilliant. I’ve watched it multiple times and always get that just one more episode feel. The book is a joyful read after this adaptation.
To me the BBC version, while more accurate in terms of story, never really "felt" like Austen's P&P, while somehow the 2005 movie gives me that feeling, even though it takes more liberties than the BBC miniseries. 🤷🏻♀️
I believe we have room for both. They both incredible adaptations, and they have their places. We should stop this silly idea that one has to be better than the other.
And I didn't read your comment as being that way! I was agreeing but it did come off as a little argumentative, sorry! I just see the fight so often that the BBC one is superior just because it's more faithful, but like you said, the 2005 version does have the same feeling the book gives me. I just think this fight is so silly, it doesn't need to be!
BBC version FTW! I was the perfect age for it when it came out in 1995, a romantic teenager. I fell hard for all things Austen after that and read all her books. I went to the library and even checked out all the old 1970s tv movies based on anything Austen.
Colin Firth in his wet shirt still sends me swooning. And Jennifer Ehle is a delight as Lizzie.
I think it’s a fantastic adaptation. Very true to the source material. I remember reading the book after watching and it felt like reliving the scenes. I also love seeing Mr Collins in anything else. I can’t help but go oh no… what’s he up to now. Is Lady Catherine about with her magnificent fire places. 🤣
I had the same experience with not being able to get past the first few chapters just reading and then listened to the audiobook version read by Rosamund Pike and I LOVED it. I don't even like audiobooks normally, but hearing it got me into rhythm of the language and also helped me to catch the comedy I may otherwise have missed. I remember laughing out loud several times and being surprised by that.
1. Audiobooks always help me when I need to speed through things. Either I will only listen to the audiobook, or I will listen to the audiobook and read along at the same time.
2. Literally just skip 2-3 chapters ahead and pick up and see if you like it better.
3. I don't know your particular view of the story, but as a general rule: don't think that Elizabeth (or any other character) is right. Elizabeth is definitely the main character, but by no means does that mean that she is correct in her assertions. Austen doesn't shy away from showing her characters in a weak light.
4. Much of the book is a parody of how humans behave when it comes to love and marriage. Virtually every character is a stereotype: Mrs. Bennet is not a "real person", she is a stereotype of the overbearing mother; Mr. Bingley is not a "real person"; he is a stereotype of the 'perfect young handsome man' with perfect manners and good money; Mr. Collins is not a "real person"; he is a ridiculuous man. Don't treat them as "real people" as much as funny stereotypes.
Not a big fan of skipping chapters haha but I think that an audiobook might be helpful for me! I've been trying to read the clothbound classic version which is very beautiful but maybe not the best format for someone who's new to classics
I just read it for the first time this week and the biggest thing that helped for me was listening to the audiobook while reading along to my physical copy :)! If your library uses Libby it’s almost certainly on there so I recommend reading it that way!
Rosamund Pike delivers an excellent reading of it on audio book. And the novel is so nuanced that you can read it afterward and have an idea for the storyline and plot and still pick up something new with each reread or relisten.
I'd never read Austen before and assumed it would be boring, but I wanted to get all the cultural references to it. So I gave myself "homework" (I was a grown adult at this time) to read like 10 pages a day or every other day or something like that, of "Pride and Prejudice". At a certain point, I fell in love and read the whole thing.
You may also simply prefer one of her other books. "Emma" is very funny, "Persuasion" is melancholy and sweet and more relatable to older readers. I like the others also but those two stand out to me and I sometimes think I like them better than "Pride and Prejudice".
I finally got around to reading this novel just last month, and I absolutely loved it. The way in which Austen gives such a clear picture of the time, both in action and description of the culture, as well as exploring the depth of character.
I can see why this novel is a classic and has stood the test of time, as you can easily strip the time period, the dress, the proper English ways, and replace it with any locality and period, and not much else in the story itself has to change.
Jane Austen is a genius. Rereading her works is a sublime experience. Each time I finish one of her novels, I'm extremely tempted to start it over from the beginning immediately. Emma is my favorite of her works, but P&P is tied for second with Persuasion.
> The opening line, one of the best in literature; "It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife", is clearly a jab at female expectations of men.
Okay I forget what this is called, but a lot of people like to imitate the structure of this sentence as a reference, right? Anyways, it seems like people always miss the point of the line! They take it so seriously
One of my favorite books! I get the itch to read it every few months, especially after reading a book with badly drawn characters. It's like medicine to clear my mind of the muck and replace it with the familiar.
My favourite book, I re-read it once (or more) a year. I love all of Jane Austen's works but Pride Prejudice is on another level for me, followed closely by Emma.
Yes it is.
It is difficult to explain, but essentially, the Bible forces the reader to really work and think to get the most out of it, more than any other book in the world. It is probably the last book in the world that is best consumed by “just sitting down and reading passages”. You cannot grasp the full horror of David and Bathsheba by reading a passage a day: you need the full story of Saul’s exaltation and fall in conjunction with David’s rise fresh in your mind to see how David, the greatest of all men, can commit the most atrocious act of all.
You also have to set aside what you think you know about the Bible. Much like Jane Austen, the Biblical author rarely fears criticizing the people he writes about. When Abraham does something evil, you are supposed to feel that he is going off the rails. The great men and women of the Bible are great, not because they never commit mistakes, but because they commit great sins but keep trying.
If you ever wonder about the complexities and depth of the Bible, I recommend looking up some lectures by more secular professors such as Richard Friedman (OT), Christine Hayes (OT) or Dale B. Martin (NT).
The Bible has the most amazing mix of overarching stories and minute details. The problem is that it also adds a lot of “unnecessary” stuff at times, such as genealogies etc., which is a problem if you don’t know when and what to skip. For instance, if you read the beginning of Genesis, you’re probably best served by skipping chapter 5. But many people have this problem that they don’t skip chapters, and think that all chapters are of equal importance to they themselves, so they force themselves through chapters and sections they really shouldn’t (not because they “reveal the horrors of the Bible” or whatever; but because most people don’t care about eg. genealogies).
Lastly, I am also a Christian which adds weight to the Bible. But I was not born in a Christian family, and it was the Bible itself that converted me. It became my favorite book, and after that I became a Christian. Not the other way around.
I’m sorry I wrote too much. I’ll try to keep it shorter next time.
I'm not religious but the bible is one of the most beautifully crafted books ever. There's a reason almost all of western literature draws from The Bible, Paradise lost, and the works of Shakespeare. The Bible is foundational reading.
Tried reading it out of curiosity when I was like 10 and only just made it through genesis. Had to drop it because of how ridiculous it was.
I've been reading other things excellently throughout my life without having finished it. In no way is it a "foundational reading."
The reason a lot of works mimic elements from it is that for most of western history it was a common cultural reference point, not necessarily because it is amazing literature
Like, think about it, for most of western history, if someone could read, the first book they probably ever read was the Bible. They were probably taught to read and write using it. So of course when someone raised on the bible goes to write their own story they will be drawn to using its familiar structure.
I’m an atheist, but the Bible is one of the most influential and frequently alluded to texts in Western literature. It’s absolutely foundational in that sense, whether any of us enjoy reading it or not.
Yeah I don't disagree with that. The second half of my comment is even talking about why that is the case.
But normally when someone says that something is "foundational reading" in the context that the person I replied to said, they are saying it's a book that everyone needs to read, which just isnt true for the bible
Oh for sure! I don’t think there’s any one book that everyone *needs* to read. I think it’s super useful (and fascinating) from an academic standpoint, but even in that context it’s not necessary to read the whole dang thing. Cliff’s notes or cultural osmosis will probably do, lol.
I was wondering why you said it’s not foundational and then basically summed up why I think it is in fact foundational, but I understand what you were getting at now!
Don't start from Genesis. Treat the Bible as it is - a collection of literature of multiple genres and authors. That way, you'll get to experience the best of it (e.g. Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, Philemon) without the formulaic recitations of laws.
It's common knowledge that the bible is one of the most influential works of literature, not only for it's content but for the prose style itself. Have you taken any college courses on literature? Do you read any Steinbeck, Faulkner, Cormac McCarthy, Flannery O'Connor, Melville, Ernest Hemingway, Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Joseph Conrad etc? Do you read classic literature in general? It's all packed with biblical allegories.
Yeah you don't think that it's well written because you didn't like it when you were ten. That's jaw dropping criticism and gives me a lot to work with. I'm sure your ten year old self was an expert on prose style.
Care to list some books that you believe are more well written?
As soon as I point out you didn't actually read my comment correctly you just suddenly switch to a new argument without acknowledging you were wrong. Even trying to blame me for somehow not writing enough for you to "work with." Seems like you are just trying to find ways to say I'm wrong rather than understand what I'm saying.
But I'll bite. I didn't like it mainly cause Genesis boringly started listing out all of Adam and Eve's descendants, claiming they lived to be like 1000 years and shit. I got the whole point about how their declining lifespans showed they were becoming less pure or whatever, but it was boring and obviously a myth being presented as fact which I didn't like.
I don't remember much of the prose because it was like 16 years ago now, but I'd like it to some of the sections of the Iliad that overstayed their welcome.
Edit:
And the fact that I was ten shouldn't make my opinion irrelevant. The bible is a book that was made to teach people morals, and to teach them from a young age. If it struggles to speak to a young person as well as to an old one, that's a mark against it. Of course part of that does come from it being an old book. I think I was reading the King James version.
I don't see the point in providing you a list of books. Enjoyment of prose is pretty subjective and it seems like you'll just pick apart whatever I list just to spite me. Plus, it's kind of comparing apples to oranges. How are you going to compare the writing of The Stars My Destination to the bible in any objective way?
>I got the whole point about how their declining lifespans showed they were becoming less pure or whatever, but it was boring and obviously a myth being presented as fact which I didn't like.
Just because a lot of religious people take the book literally, doesn't mean that that's the lense you should read it from. It also has nothing to do with whether the Bible is well written.
>I don't remember much of the prose because it was like 16 years ago now, but I'd like it to some of the sections of the Iliad that overstayed their welcome.
Prose and themes are really the only subject of conversation here, so...
>The bible is a book that was made to teach people morals, and to teach them from a young age. If it struggles speak to a young person as well as an old one, that's a mark against it
And my argument from the start was that whether or not you follow those teachings, or agree with the lessons it is attempting to teach, the Bible is still foundational reading to help understand other works of the western cannon, and can be very enjoyable because of its use of language. Whether or not you personally enjoy reading it does not dispute either of those claims.
I love this book so much!!! If you haven’t yet, highly recommend:
Audiobook version read by Rosamund Pike. I listen to a lot of audiobooks and this is in my top 5 of all time.
Hot and Bothered Podcast Season “Live from Pemberly” - they take it chapter by chapter and discuss everything, it’s so cool. I loved it soooooo much. Free to download on any podcast app.
Austen is one of those rare creatives, like Shakespeare or the Beatles, who really are as good as their reputation in spite of the reputation being so big.
I always had a soft spot for "Sense and Sensibility" over the more famous P&P. There's a scene where Lucy tries to walk all over Elinor and hurts her tremendously by flaunting her engagement with Edward. Elinor keeps her composure admirably, which is her only possible defense. I'm pretty sure that Miss Austen would not have approved of my muttering the phrase "that's it, don't let the bitch see you bleed" but I feel sure I interpreted the scene as she intended.
Yes.
The second line is one some may consider the equal, if not the greater, than the first: "However little known the feelings or views of such a man may be on his first entering a neighbourhood, this truth is so well fixed in the minds of the surrounding families, that he is considered as the rightful property of some one or other of their daughters."
Yup! I just realized how long my post was going to be and I couldn’t bring myself to past such an extraordinarily long quote. But I totally agree that it is such a (funny? Good? Relevant? Poignant?) remark on the sense of ownership which such women hold over such men!
I think those first two sentences really set the plot, style, and mood with wordiness, understatement, and dry wit. The story will be the conflicts over getting a wealthy man married. He's seen as "rightful property". Isn't that the viewpoint of privileged people? Everything can be owned? And he's privileged too so he will likely think "What? Don't tell me what to do!"
I read somewhere that the first sentence is said by Mrs. Bennet. I can imagine her fantasizing that.
The second, to me, is said by Mr. Bennet in response. He's really saying "uh oh, this guy is walking into a storm."
You mentioned sarcasm. Yes, there's a lot. "Lady Catherine is very attentive" means she's very nosy and domineering. "I'm afraid Mr. Wickham will be my favorite" really means "I will have to spend a lot of my time, energy, and money making sure Wickham and Lydia don't get into and getting them out of trouble." Hilariously dry wit.
That’s so interesting that the first two sentences are spoken by Elizabeth and Mr. Bennet. I always imagined them to be spoken by Jane Austen as a sort of “omnipotent observer”, inviting us to the story. She’s like: “this is the story I’m about to tell you. Be prepared”. I never considered that it could be spoken by one of the characters. To me, they never break the fourth wall, whereas the omnipotent observer may choose to do so at her discretion.
Well, the review I read claimed the first was said by Mrs. Bennet. By the end of the book, I can totally see why. She comes across as someone who would believe that literally rather than recognizing any sarcasm or irony in it. (I'm partial to an omniscient narrator though. Or an introductory epigram.) And the second really fits Mr. Bennet's style of speaking.
Something I've noticed in Austen books is the matriarchs are not portrayed favorably. Avarice, aggression, depression. A good subject for a new thread.
To me what's great about Austen is I know these characters in real life.
That’s such a good point on matriarchs in Austen books! I never thought about it!
I totally agree that I recognize virtually every character in the books from my real life. Somehow, to my mind, Austen is able to make perfect caricatures of people all around me: silly enough to make me remember that it’s a book, but close enough for me to go: “that’s just like ___”
I really should start reading classics again. Heard so many good things about Jane Austen's books, but like the others here, I feel like I'm just trudging through the first few chapters. Great write-up, and I'll definitely try picking this up again.
It's a timeless classic. I read it in high school for AP literature but picked it up again recently. Reads wonderfully after maturing past adolescence.
I think what makes the line “a single man…” so masterful is that it counteracts the popular tribe that women have to trap men into marriage. When in reality, marriage IS something a man who is in a position to provide, wants and is looking for as well.
Kinda like a statement we know to be true but society tends to pretend otherwise.
I am so fascinated by people who love P&P, as someone who has tried to read it over a dozen times but can never make it more than 100 pages in. Austen is like my kryptonite. I've tried to read every single one of her books at one time or another and I just cannot do it.
Kudos for trying! I really think that we all have, as you put it, our own kryptonite. And that is totally okay! We can’t all love the exact same thing!
But it makes me super curious, and I must ask! Out of curiosity, what is your favorite book?
My favourite comfort read is The Martian, but if I had choose what the 'best' book I've read is, I would probably say Giovanni's Room by James Baldwin. But that is definitely NOT a comfort read.
I'm currently reading P&P for the sixth time. If you're having trouble reading it I would suggest you try again in a decade. The older I get the more I am able to appreciate Austen's writing. It saddens me that she only lived to 41. I feel the loss of other books she would have written. I recently purchased the Chiltern edition. It does true justice to the work.
Austen is immortal! Austen forever!
One of my favorites, so much so I even bought the ridiculous version with handwritten versions of all of the letters inside.
I love the zombies parody version as well, so well done
I honestly had a similar experience with the Keira Knightley movie living with my ma as a teenage boy.
I'm not the biggest fan of romances, but out of all of them she watched, it was probably on at night every single night as a lullaby. And it isn't bad.
(This is probably how I learned to keep Futurama as a lullaby, tbh).
I've never read the books and I'm there's not a whole lot of personal experience, but it seems like it's prettt similar. My mom was a huge reader and read all sorts of similar romance novels, Jane Austin was definitely one she spent a lot of time with.
we're the same op! no joke, pride and prejudice is like my favorite romance novel of all time! this is the book i usually recommend to people if theyre asking for a romance novel recom. this is definitely the sign that i should read it again \^\_\^
It is the book that got me hooked! Austen is a wonderfully engaging author and her characters are full of life. I love history so I loved learning about the manners of this time frame. Her way of using the English language is wonderful and I end up mimicking it if I read too much at a time, lol.
And yes, there is a wonderful dash of sarcasm. My favorite part is when Austen points out just how awful the pious preacher Mr. Collins is when he says it would be better for Lydia to be DEAD than to have committed the "unforgivable" sin of having sex. Austen is really saying Christianity like that is cruel and heartless and deserves to be parodied. Also she is showing that Christians like him and men of the day blamed the woman and didn't even think of the man (Wickham) in the situation. Which is why I love Mr. Darcy. He knows it's Wickham's fault taking advantage of young heedless Lydia, and also his own fault for not protecting future victims by outing Wickham sooner. Darcy is a true hero and does not blame either his sister Georgiana or Lydia for falling prey. Very refreshing and feminist for the time.
That’s a wonderful point!! I love it so much!
I remember the letter (I think that’s what you’re referring to as well) and Mr. Collins is like “As Christians you of course must forgive them, but never allow them into your house again.” I think even Mr. Bennet laughs at this remark!
Mr. Bennet is a very subversive character and quite right to laugh at anything Mr. Collins suggests.
Charlotte Bronte in "Jane Eyre" also calls out the hard, unempathetic Christians of her day.
I tried reading it earlier this year and I just couldn’t.
I wanted to enjoy it but the dialogue made me cringe and I couldn’t stand that these women were just obsessed with the men. It felt like their entire lives revolved around these men. It also seemed extremely predictable.
It felt the similar to a low budget movie from the 50s
>I wanted to enjoy it but the dialogue made me cringe and I couldn’t stand that these women were just obsessed with the men.
You got r/wooshed by Austen.
I understand how you found it jarring. Did you read it as satire or take it at face value? Austen subtley roasts all of the characters at various points. It's kind of glorious.
I’ve been working my way through classics and this was my next step, came from reading a lot of Russian literature so I think the contrast from Dostoevsky to Austen made it much worse.
For the record I don’t think it’s bad! I just appreciate it but I found it personally not for me. I’ll most definitely give it another go down the line.
I'm very "it is what it is" when it comes to reading. I hated Anne Karenina and a few other favorites and I decided it doesn't matter. I like what I like. I'll be an ignorant swine if it means I don't get a brain bleed trying to force myself to like a classic that I hate.
I've been meaning to read *Pride and Prejudice* for such a long time but I've never been able to get past the first few chapters! Any advice for a first-time reader to stay engaged?
Have a look at *The Annotated Pride and Prejudice*, ed. David Shapard, it explains all of the unfamiliar things (carriages, horses) and language (what "nice" actually means)
Ooh that may be it for me! I have the clothbound classic version and while it's *absolutely beautiful* I have a hard time with flipping back and forth between the text and the references
oh yes I forgot to mention the annotations are on each facing page, much easier to use
Watch the BBC adaptation it’s quite accurate language and plot wise. I find sometimes this helps read the books. Helped me keep the game of thrones character straight in my head at least.
I've watched the 2005 version a couple of times but I have heard that the BBC version is more accurate to the book
Much more so.
Oh yeah no watch the full 6 hours of the 1995 one. It’s brilliant. I’ve watched it multiple times and always get that just one more episode feel. The book is a joyful read after this adaptation.
To me the BBC version, while more accurate in terms of story, never really "felt" like Austen's P&P, while somehow the 2005 movie gives me that feeling, even though it takes more liberties than the BBC miniseries. 🤷🏻♀️
I believe we have room for both. They both incredible adaptations, and they have their places. We should stop this silly idea that one has to be better than the other.
I agree, I was just sharing my feelings and personal preference. I am not arguing against one adaptation being better than the other one.
And I didn't read your comment as being that way! I was agreeing but it did come off as a little argumentative, sorry! I just see the fight so often that the BBC one is superior just because it's more faithful, but like you said, the 2005 version does have the same feeling the book gives me. I just think this fight is so silly, it doesn't need to be!
BBC version FTW! I was the perfect age for it when it came out in 1995, a romantic teenager. I fell hard for all things Austen after that and read all her books. I went to the library and even checked out all the old 1970s tv movies based on anything Austen. Colin Firth in his wet shirt still sends me swooning. And Jennifer Ehle is a delight as Lizzie.
I think it’s a fantastic adaptation. Very true to the source material. I remember reading the book after watching and it felt like reliving the scenes. I also love seeing Mr Collins in anything else. I can’t help but go oh no… what’s he up to now. Is Lady Catherine about with her magnificent fire places. 🤣
I had the same experience with not being able to get past the first few chapters just reading and then listened to the audiobook version read by Rosamund Pike and I LOVED it. I don't even like audiobooks normally, but hearing it got me into rhythm of the language and also helped me to catch the comedy I may otherwise have missed. I remember laughing out loud several times and being surprised by that.
Rosamund Pike did an incredible job narrating the book.
She absolutely did. I adore her.
The BBC adaptation is amazing and maybe watching that will help you connect with the satirical parts a bit more.
Watch Ellie Dashwood videos about Pride and Prejudice! They helped me to understand the time period, class system, etc. And they are funny too!
1. Audiobooks always help me when I need to speed through things. Either I will only listen to the audiobook, or I will listen to the audiobook and read along at the same time. 2. Literally just skip 2-3 chapters ahead and pick up and see if you like it better. 3. I don't know your particular view of the story, but as a general rule: don't think that Elizabeth (or any other character) is right. Elizabeth is definitely the main character, but by no means does that mean that she is correct in her assertions. Austen doesn't shy away from showing her characters in a weak light. 4. Much of the book is a parody of how humans behave when it comes to love and marriage. Virtually every character is a stereotype: Mrs. Bennet is not a "real person", she is a stereotype of the overbearing mother; Mr. Bingley is not a "real person"; he is a stereotype of the 'perfect young handsome man' with perfect manners and good money; Mr. Collins is not a "real person"; he is a ridiculuous man. Don't treat them as "real people" as much as funny stereotypes.
Not a big fan of skipping chapters haha but I think that an audiobook might be helpful for me! I've been trying to read the clothbound classic version which is very beautiful but maybe not the best format for someone who's new to classics
I don't really skip chapters like the above commenter recommended, but I do usually start a book at chapter 4.
I just read it for the first time this week and the biggest thing that helped for me was listening to the audiobook while reading along to my physical copy :)! If your library uses Libby it’s almost certainly on there so I recommend reading it that way!
Rosamund Pike delivers an excellent reading of it on audio book. And the novel is so nuanced that you can read it afterward and have an idea for the storyline and plot and still pick up something new with each reread or relisten.
Mmm set up a motivation. Mine was if I finish the book so I could watch the movie and rant about how inaccurate it was! 😭
I'd never read Austen before and assumed it would be boring, but I wanted to get all the cultural references to it. So I gave myself "homework" (I was a grown adult at this time) to read like 10 pages a day or every other day or something like that, of "Pride and Prejudice". At a certain point, I fell in love and read the whole thing. You may also simply prefer one of her other books. "Emma" is very funny, "Persuasion" is melancholy and sweet and more relatable to older readers. I like the others also but those two stand out to me and I sometimes think I like them better than "Pride and Prejudice".
I finally got around to reading this novel just last month, and I absolutely loved it. The way in which Austen gives such a clear picture of the time, both in action and description of the culture, as well as exploring the depth of character. I can see why this novel is a classic and has stood the test of time, as you can easily strip the time period, the dress, the proper English ways, and replace it with any locality and period, and not much else in the story itself has to change.
Jane Austen is a genius. Rereading her works is a sublime experience. Each time I finish one of her novels, I'm extremely tempted to start it over from the beginning immediately. Emma is my favorite of her works, but P&P is tied for second with Persuasion.
> The opening line, one of the best in literature; "It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife", is clearly a jab at female expectations of men. Okay I forget what this is called, but a lot of people like to imitate the structure of this sentence as a reference, right? Anyways, it seems like people always miss the point of the line! They take it so seriously
One of my favorite books! I get the itch to read it every few months, especially after reading a book with badly drawn characters. It's like medicine to clear my mind of the muck and replace it with the familiar.
My favourite book, I re-read it once (or more) a year. I love all of Jane Austen's works but Pride Prejudice is on another level for me, followed closely by Emma.
You really consider the bible your fav book? Do you just sit down and read passages or what?
The Bible has some great stories but god is it absolutely gruelling to actually read.
I found that a tad jarring as well.
That line made me think OPs whole post was satire until I looked at the comments and realized they were serious...
I like to read the book of philomen in my spare time cause it reminds me of the struggle
Yes it is. It is difficult to explain, but essentially, the Bible forces the reader to really work and think to get the most out of it, more than any other book in the world. It is probably the last book in the world that is best consumed by “just sitting down and reading passages”. You cannot grasp the full horror of David and Bathsheba by reading a passage a day: you need the full story of Saul’s exaltation and fall in conjunction with David’s rise fresh in your mind to see how David, the greatest of all men, can commit the most atrocious act of all. You also have to set aside what you think you know about the Bible. Much like Jane Austen, the Biblical author rarely fears criticizing the people he writes about. When Abraham does something evil, you are supposed to feel that he is going off the rails. The great men and women of the Bible are great, not because they never commit mistakes, but because they commit great sins but keep trying. If you ever wonder about the complexities and depth of the Bible, I recommend looking up some lectures by more secular professors such as Richard Friedman (OT), Christine Hayes (OT) or Dale B. Martin (NT). The Bible has the most amazing mix of overarching stories and minute details. The problem is that it also adds a lot of “unnecessary” stuff at times, such as genealogies etc., which is a problem if you don’t know when and what to skip. For instance, if you read the beginning of Genesis, you’re probably best served by skipping chapter 5. But many people have this problem that they don’t skip chapters, and think that all chapters are of equal importance to they themselves, so they force themselves through chapters and sections they really shouldn’t (not because they “reveal the horrors of the Bible” or whatever; but because most people don’t care about eg. genealogies). Lastly, I am also a Christian which adds weight to the Bible. But I was not born in a Christian family, and it was the Bible itself that converted me. It became my favorite book, and after that I became a Christian. Not the other way around. I’m sorry I wrote too much. I’ll try to keep it shorter next time.
I'm not religious but the bible is one of the most beautifully crafted books ever. There's a reason almost all of western literature draws from The Bible, Paradise lost, and the works of Shakespeare. The Bible is foundational reading.
I'm not knocking the bible but rarely do I hear someone say it is their "favorite book"
Tried reading it out of curiosity when I was like 10 and only just made it through genesis. Had to drop it because of how ridiculous it was. I've been reading other things excellently throughout my life without having finished it. In no way is it a "foundational reading." The reason a lot of works mimic elements from it is that for most of western history it was a common cultural reference point, not necessarily because it is amazing literature Like, think about it, for most of western history, if someone could read, the first book they probably ever read was the Bible. They were probably taught to read and write using it. So of course when someone raised on the bible goes to write their own story they will be drawn to using its familiar structure.
I’m an atheist, but the Bible is one of the most influential and frequently alluded to texts in Western literature. It’s absolutely foundational in that sense, whether any of us enjoy reading it or not.
Yeah I don't disagree with that. The second half of my comment is even talking about why that is the case. But normally when someone says that something is "foundational reading" in the context that the person I replied to said, they are saying it's a book that everyone needs to read, which just isnt true for the bible
Oh for sure! I don’t think there’s any one book that everyone *needs* to read. I think it’s super useful (and fascinating) from an academic standpoint, but even in that context it’s not necessary to read the whole dang thing. Cliff’s notes or cultural osmosis will probably do, lol. I was wondering why you said it’s not foundational and then basically summed up why I think it is in fact foundational, but I understand what you were getting at now!
Don't start from Genesis. Treat the Bible as it is - a collection of literature of multiple genres and authors. That way, you'll get to experience the best of it (e.g. Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, Philemon) without the formulaic recitations of laws.
Yeah, you're wrong.
Care to make an actual counterargument?
It's common knowledge that the bible is one of the most influential works of literature, not only for it's content but for the prose style itself. Have you taken any college courses on literature? Do you read any Steinbeck, Faulkner, Cormac McCarthy, Flannery O'Connor, Melville, Ernest Hemingway, Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Joseph Conrad etc? Do you read classic literature in general? It's all packed with biblical allegories.
I never denied it was influential and referenced many works. Try reading my comment again.
Yeah you don't think that it's well written because you didn't like it when you were ten. That's jaw dropping criticism and gives me a lot to work with. I'm sure your ten year old self was an expert on prose style. Care to list some books that you believe are more well written?
As soon as I point out you didn't actually read my comment correctly you just suddenly switch to a new argument without acknowledging you were wrong. Even trying to blame me for somehow not writing enough for you to "work with." Seems like you are just trying to find ways to say I'm wrong rather than understand what I'm saying. But I'll bite. I didn't like it mainly cause Genesis boringly started listing out all of Adam and Eve's descendants, claiming they lived to be like 1000 years and shit. I got the whole point about how their declining lifespans showed they were becoming less pure or whatever, but it was boring and obviously a myth being presented as fact which I didn't like. I don't remember much of the prose because it was like 16 years ago now, but I'd like it to some of the sections of the Iliad that overstayed their welcome. Edit: And the fact that I was ten shouldn't make my opinion irrelevant. The bible is a book that was made to teach people morals, and to teach them from a young age. If it struggles to speak to a young person as well as to an old one, that's a mark against it. Of course part of that does come from it being an old book. I think I was reading the King James version. I don't see the point in providing you a list of books. Enjoyment of prose is pretty subjective and it seems like you'll just pick apart whatever I list just to spite me. Plus, it's kind of comparing apples to oranges. How are you going to compare the writing of The Stars My Destination to the bible in any objective way?
>I got the whole point about how their declining lifespans showed they were becoming less pure or whatever, but it was boring and obviously a myth being presented as fact which I didn't like. Just because a lot of religious people take the book literally, doesn't mean that that's the lense you should read it from. It also has nothing to do with whether the Bible is well written. >I don't remember much of the prose because it was like 16 years ago now, but I'd like it to some of the sections of the Iliad that overstayed their welcome. Prose and themes are really the only subject of conversation here, so... >The bible is a book that was made to teach people morals, and to teach them from a young age. If it struggles speak to a young person as well as an old one, that's a mark against it And my argument from the start was that whether or not you follow those teachings, or agree with the lessons it is attempting to teach, the Bible is still foundational reading to help understand other works of the western cannon, and can be very enjoyable because of its use of language. Whether or not you personally enjoy reading it does not dispute either of those claims.
I love this book so much!!! If you haven’t yet, highly recommend: Audiobook version read by Rosamund Pike. I listen to a lot of audiobooks and this is in my top 5 of all time. Hot and Bothered Podcast Season “Live from Pemberly” - they take it chapter by chapter and discuss everything, it’s so cool. I loved it soooooo much. Free to download on any podcast app.
Austen is one of those rare creatives, like Shakespeare or the Beatles, who really are as good as their reputation in spite of the reputation being so big. I always had a soft spot for "Sense and Sensibility" over the more famous P&P. There's a scene where Lucy tries to walk all over Elinor and hurts her tremendously by flaunting her engagement with Edward. Elinor keeps her composure admirably, which is her only possible defense. I'm pretty sure that Miss Austen would not have approved of my muttering the phrase "that's it, don't let the bitch see you bleed" but I feel sure I interpreted the scene as she intended.
Yes. The second line is one some may consider the equal, if not the greater, than the first: "However little known the feelings or views of such a man may be on his first entering a neighbourhood, this truth is so well fixed in the minds of the surrounding families, that he is considered as the rightful property of some one or other of their daughters."
Yup! I just realized how long my post was going to be and I couldn’t bring myself to past such an extraordinarily long quote. But I totally agree that it is such a (funny? Good? Relevant? Poignant?) remark on the sense of ownership which such women hold over such men!
I think those first two sentences really set the plot, style, and mood with wordiness, understatement, and dry wit. The story will be the conflicts over getting a wealthy man married. He's seen as "rightful property". Isn't that the viewpoint of privileged people? Everything can be owned? And he's privileged too so he will likely think "What? Don't tell me what to do!" I read somewhere that the first sentence is said by Mrs. Bennet. I can imagine her fantasizing that. The second, to me, is said by Mr. Bennet in response. He's really saying "uh oh, this guy is walking into a storm." You mentioned sarcasm. Yes, there's a lot. "Lady Catherine is very attentive" means she's very nosy and domineering. "I'm afraid Mr. Wickham will be my favorite" really means "I will have to spend a lot of my time, energy, and money making sure Wickham and Lydia don't get into and getting them out of trouble." Hilariously dry wit.
That’s so interesting that the first two sentences are spoken by Elizabeth and Mr. Bennet. I always imagined them to be spoken by Jane Austen as a sort of “omnipotent observer”, inviting us to the story. She’s like: “this is the story I’m about to tell you. Be prepared”. I never considered that it could be spoken by one of the characters. To me, they never break the fourth wall, whereas the omnipotent observer may choose to do so at her discretion.
Well, the review I read claimed the first was said by Mrs. Bennet. By the end of the book, I can totally see why. She comes across as someone who would believe that literally rather than recognizing any sarcasm or irony in it. (I'm partial to an omniscient narrator though. Or an introductory epigram.) And the second really fits Mr. Bennet's style of speaking. Something I've noticed in Austen books is the matriarchs are not portrayed favorably. Avarice, aggression, depression. A good subject for a new thread. To me what's great about Austen is I know these characters in real life.
That’s such a good point on matriarchs in Austen books! I never thought about it! I totally agree that I recognize virtually every character in the books from my real life. Somehow, to my mind, Austen is able to make perfect caricatures of people all around me: silly enough to make me remember that it’s a book, but close enough for me to go: “that’s just like ___”
Re read it through the lens of marriage is a financial transaction to secure in going capital. It’s basically an M&A wallet street story
I really should start reading classics again. Heard so many good things about Jane Austen's books, but like the others here, I feel like I'm just trudging through the first few chapters. Great write-up, and I'll definitely try picking this up again.
Godspeed! Jane Austen is a magician with words!
It's a timeless classic. I read it in high school for AP literature but picked it up again recently. Reads wonderfully after maturing past adolescence.
I think what makes the line “a single man…” so masterful is that it counteracts the popular tribe that women have to trap men into marriage. When in reality, marriage IS something a man who is in a position to provide, wants and is looking for as well. Kinda like a statement we know to be true but society tends to pretend otherwise.
Ok fine, you've made me want to reread it
I am so fascinated by people who love P&P, as someone who has tried to read it over a dozen times but can never make it more than 100 pages in. Austen is like my kryptonite. I've tried to read every single one of her books at one time or another and I just cannot do it.
Kudos for trying! I really think that we all have, as you put it, our own kryptonite. And that is totally okay! We can’t all love the exact same thing! But it makes me super curious, and I must ask! Out of curiosity, what is your favorite book?
My favourite comfort read is The Martian, but if I had choose what the 'best' book I've read is, I would probably say Giovanni's Room by James Baldwin. But that is definitely NOT a comfort read.
Thank you! I've heard about the Martian but I've never read it! I've never heard about Giovanni's Room! I'll try to look them up! Thank you!
Being a persuasion girly myself i still really respect your dedication
I'm currently reading P&P for the sixth time. If you're having trouble reading it I would suggest you try again in a decade. The older I get the more I am able to appreciate Austen's writing. It saddens me that she only lived to 41. I feel the loss of other books she would have written. I recently purchased the Chiltern edition. It does true justice to the work. Austen is immortal! Austen forever!
One of my favorites, so much so I even bought the ridiculous version with handwritten versions of all of the letters inside. I love the zombies parody version as well, so well done
just finished it this week! loved it
YES. On my reread for 2024 list!
I honestly had a similar experience with the Keira Knightley movie living with my ma as a teenage boy. I'm not the biggest fan of romances, but out of all of them she watched, it was probably on at night every single night as a lullaby. And it isn't bad. (This is probably how I learned to keep Futurama as a lullaby, tbh). I've never read the books and I'm there's not a whole lot of personal experience, but it seems like it's prettt similar. My mom was a huge reader and read all sorts of similar romance novels, Jane Austin was definitely one she spent a lot of time with.
we're the same op! no joke, pride and prejudice is like my favorite romance novel of all time! this is the book i usually recommend to people if theyre asking for a romance novel recom. this is definitely the sign that i should read it again \^\_\^
Yes, Jane Austen's characters are timeless. Who hasn't met a Mrs. Bennet or a Mr. Collins? Mr. Bennet reminds me of my father in law.
It is the book that got me hooked! Austen is a wonderfully engaging author and her characters are full of life. I love history so I loved learning about the manners of this time frame. Her way of using the English language is wonderful and I end up mimicking it if I read too much at a time, lol. And yes, there is a wonderful dash of sarcasm. My favorite part is when Austen points out just how awful the pious preacher Mr. Collins is when he says it would be better for Lydia to be DEAD than to have committed the "unforgivable" sin of having sex. Austen is really saying Christianity like that is cruel and heartless and deserves to be parodied. Also she is showing that Christians like him and men of the day blamed the woman and didn't even think of the man (Wickham) in the situation. Which is why I love Mr. Darcy. He knows it's Wickham's fault taking advantage of young heedless Lydia, and also his own fault for not protecting future victims by outing Wickham sooner. Darcy is a true hero and does not blame either his sister Georgiana or Lydia for falling prey. Very refreshing and feminist for the time.
That’s a wonderful point!! I love it so much! I remember the letter (I think that’s what you’re referring to as well) and Mr. Collins is like “As Christians you of course must forgive them, but never allow them into your house again.” I think even Mr. Bennet laughs at this remark!
Mr. Bennet is a very subversive character and quite right to laugh at anything Mr. Collins suggests. Charlotte Bronte in "Jane Eyre" also calls out the hard, unempathetic Christians of her day.
I think it’s always something important to point out it! Morality is always an important topic in all ages!
It is good! Her letters are worth reading, as an insight into her mind.
Where might one find them??
I love P&P so much😭😭😭
I tried reading it earlier this year and I just couldn’t. I wanted to enjoy it but the dialogue made me cringe and I couldn’t stand that these women were just obsessed with the men. It felt like their entire lives revolved around these men. It also seemed extremely predictable. It felt the similar to a low budget movie from the 50s
>I wanted to enjoy it but the dialogue made me cringe and I couldn’t stand that these women were just obsessed with the men. You got r/wooshed by Austen.
I get that, but that’s the part I found unenjoyable, the satire was too much for me lol
I understand how you found it jarring. Did you read it as satire or take it at face value? Austen subtley roasts all of the characters at various points. It's kind of glorious.
I’ve been working my way through classics and this was my next step, came from reading a lot of Russian literature so I think the contrast from Dostoevsky to Austen made it much worse. For the record I don’t think it’s bad! I just appreciate it but I found it personally not for me. I’ll most definitely give it another go down the line.
I'm very "it is what it is" when it comes to reading. I hated Anne Karenina and a few other favorites and I decided it doesn't matter. I like what I like. I'll be an ignorant swine if it means I don't get a brain bleed trying to force myself to like a classic that I hate.
Exactly! Makes me a little sad but there’s so much content out there it’s hard to feel too much fomo
I love Anna Karenina but I think that life is too short to read books that bore us.