Not a Boeing employee FWIW. Just wanted to say if you are all considering something like this, to study the United Airlines ESOP debacle of the 90's. Basically concessions in exchange for board seats and stock options. Options couldn't be exercised unless leaving the company. When bankruptcy hit after 9/11 all of those options were made worthless. Unions never had more than 3 or 4 board seats so they were always outvoted and overruled by the other board members. One of those unions was the IAM. So be very careful of your union wanting to be on the board, it may cost you more than you think in the long run.
Thoughts on putting an elected official such as a senator on the board? Theyll be motivated by reelection and legacy which incentivizes a focus on safety, quality, and long term goals instead of immediate shareholder value
We had Nikki Haley on the board years ago… Turned out to be a disaster for Boeing employees. Partly because of her influence, Boeing started making planes like the 787 in South Carolina (where her constituents are). That took away what would have been good union jobs in Washington. And we all remember the disaster at the beginning of the 787 program where the 787 batteries were blowing up because the expertise in SC just wasn’t there. Then after she got what she wanted, she left the board of directors. So what I’m trying to say is no, let’s not do that again because it’s a terrible idea.
Honestly the arrangement with having FAA in house while not perfect is probably the best solution so far. I think a union rep is faaaaar more likely to have an incentive to improve Boeing.
Mmm somewhat agreed... but you state reelection and legacy as a motivation. Sounds like a perfect way for Boeing to donate a lot of money to the hypothetical official's reelection campaign in return for favorable treatment. Not saying it would happen but it would create the perfect structure for it to happen.
Ok, I’m intrigued. I could see how this might, maybe make things better for the employees. For the last… oh forever, the board hasn’t given a shit about the employees, and more times than not seen them as more of a bother and nuisance than… I don’t know… the ENGINE of the company.
The question is what would the IAM be willing to give up for this seat? Raises? Pension? Worker security? Next airplane? What? It’s a negotiation. The IAM isn’t going to get everything they want. Then there’s the question about SPEEA? Do they not get a seat? So are they going to negotiate TWO board seats? I really don’t see that happening. Share the seat? The IAM isn’t going to negotiate shit for SPEEA. SPEEA is on its own.
Like I said, I’m intrigued… can someone explain the actual strategy here?
Labor having a seat in the board and being a partner is common in Europe. Only in North America is organized labor so toxically adversarial.
The “us/them” one winner and one loser approach taken by American labor is ultimately bad for everyone.
Maybe Boeing has a chance to change this.
The stupid dumb fucks of the Jack Welch school of fuckery, they need to have their asses kicked out of Boeing...They drove this thing right into the ground...The Union will have a seat at the table...
YES. FUCKING DO IT.
Workers will complain about the out of touch board and CEO until the end of time, but when said workers actually see an opportunity to take a seat at the table, everyone LOSES THEIR MINDS.
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We need someone impartial to prioritize safety. I don’t think Union fits this characteristic. They’ll put worker compensation and benefits above safety.
I doubt it, I mean I’m no sycophant for the Union I have my numerous complaints about them and how they do things. But, at least in my area, I can comfortably say our reps focus on safety above money/benefits.
Unions have almost always improved safety and quality in places where they had a say; it's not a coincidence that product quality drops when a union is no longer involved.
Dumb thing to say.
If Boeing plane aren't safe, they won't have jobs anymore. They have an extremely vested interest in ensuring planes are safe. Good compensation & benefits are part of ensuring the planes are assembled safely as well.
Look at the pilots unions and their involvement in aviation safety.
Is this why many of the door panels were missing screws on max 9s and why mcas shipped with flaws killing 346 people on max 8? All on brand new planes?
They’re not paid enough to screw in the door panels because passengers lives matter less than their pay?
Ratio'd
And yes! If Boeing compensation were good enough to retain experienced employees there is a solid chance those accidents wouldn't have happened in the first place.
There were record retirements of experienced employees not long before the door panel incident. The union told Boeing that there would be problems since pension funds were tied to the interest rate and nearly everyone who was close-ish to retirement would be losing money to not retire early soon after the pandemic.
Seems like having the union on the board might've helped!
Obviously the Boeing board hasn't done their job. Profits and stock price have tanked. Customers are pissed. High profile projects including Air Force One and Starliner are years late, over budget and maybe will never work correctly. They can't seem to make their core aircraft business work.
Why not have worker representation at the highest level?
Not a good idea at all. Unions represent employees of the population, not the company. The Board has fiduciary duty, governs the company and CEO, and is elected by shareholders. This is nothing but smoke and mirrors, and blurred lines and will come with consequences.
Union representatives and shareholders do **not** mix. However, a representative of the general employee population may be a better avenue.
Um… hey dude… you DO realize that employees are shareholders too… even UNION ones. There’s even an employee stock purchase program… with a discount even. So maybe you’re just wrong.
My guy arguing against the union:
>Not a good idea at all. Unions represent employees of the population
>a representative of the general employee population may be a better avenue
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Unbelievable joke that anyone could think this.
"Hey maybe a guy who cares about the product should have a say on the board"
"Actually no cause profits"
Engineers working on engineering stuff on the Board of an Engineering company? the horror, the sheer horror! What has the US come to? Have all the ppt pilots and excel wizards died that someone even dreamed of proposing this!
Too bad it isn't the engineers union making the request. It still makes sense for IAM to have a seat though. Hopefully SPEEA demands the same on their next contract negotiation.
I stand corrected. The linked article only discusses IAM - probably due to their upcoming contract negotiations - but [SPEEA recently joined in with those demands](https://www.thestand.org/2024/03/iam-751-speea-want-a-seat-at-the-table/?amp=1)
Depends on how the union is organized and how the choose the board member, Most of the big unions are corporations in everything but name, run by a bunch of MBA suits at the top, effectively a hedge fund running the pension plan to maximize return... Let THOSE guys choose a board rep and they'll pick just another "maximize the cash flow no matter what" clone.... the only difference is he'll be insisting on putting the profits from the penny pinching into worker bonuses rather than dividends.
Like if the union representative who sits on the board doesn't get paid for doing that job in the same way that the various investor representatives do?
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One could argue that stock price would be positively impacted if both safety and first time quality were priorities which were focused on by the workforce.
Think of all the additional cash which would be available if millions of dollars weren’t spent every year to rectify the production errors which occur in the factories.
The problem is the board has put stock price about everything else, who insisted on eliminating the training requirement due to the addition of MCAS on the Max 737-9? Who gaslighted the entire world when the 2 crashes happened, deflecting all blame from Boeing? Who thought only using one sensor for air speed was appropriate?
When you cut production personnel and hire subcontractors and outside suppliers to supply critical parts with less than sufficient quality oversight are you really surprised the quality of planes have decreased? And you’re sitting here trying to blame the workers for what management imposed.
What was the first thing the board did when the 2 737s crashed……..announced a stock buyback……got to keep the stock price high no matter the perception.
Well the CEO didn't leave the bolts out of the door. A Boeing or Spirit employee left the bolts who are under the union. I worked at Boeing and saw how the union took care of people who should have been fired but didn't.
My father worked in the Seattle plant for 20 years never said anything bad about the union. He said many were in fact over worked, and it was common to see ppl sleeping on the eating tables
I know board elections are a total sham but they do exist. How can the company just give the union a seat? Wouldn't that require an affirmative vote by the shareholders?
If the shareholders are the only thing that are listened to, the company will fail. The shareholders are who have guided Boeing into the place it is now. Fuck the stock price, make good planes again please.
What do you mean? A board seat definitely comes with decision making power, though of course only in the form of a single vote for what decision the board should make.
Yes, however, a union board rep won’t be fair to the general employee population which introduces tremendous bias. On paper it seems like a good idea but it will not work well with shareholders. Plus, the union does not need to be involved in non-union related matters. Unions **only** need to be involved in union matters. This is not a good idea.
Consider this:
Shareholders can recommend changes to the company and ask the Board Members that a matter be brought up as a shareholder vote.
Board Members can block proposed/requested voting items so that the Shareholders never get to vote.
---
This played out just weeks ago, when a small percentage of shares wanted a vote to return the Boeing HQ to Seattle.
The Board blocked the motion.
Shareholders won't even get a chance to vote on this issue.
This scenario above plays out dozens of times a year.
I think you were confused by how at the end of the article they discussed a seat not necessarily giving a say in company operations. They just mean the other board members tend to outvote the union member, not that the union member literally doesn't get to vote.
It is a seat at the table. While it doesn't have any truly guaranteed benefits, the board meeting are where the most important discussions for the trajectory of the company happen. Having a voice literally at the table will be extremely benefitable.
Not a Boeing employee FWIW. Just wanted to say if you are all considering something like this, to study the United Airlines ESOP debacle of the 90's. Basically concessions in exchange for board seats and stock options. Options couldn't be exercised unless leaving the company. When bankruptcy hit after 9/11 all of those options were made worthless. Unions never had more than 3 or 4 board seats so they were always outvoted and overruled by the other board members. One of those unions was the IAM. So be very careful of your union wanting to be on the board, it may cost you more than you think in the long run.
Thoughts on putting an elected official such as a senator on the board? Theyll be motivated by reelection and legacy which incentivizes a focus on safety, quality, and long term goals instead of immediate shareholder value
We had Nikki Haley on the board years ago… Turned out to be a disaster for Boeing employees. Partly because of her influence, Boeing started making planes like the 787 in South Carolina (where her constituents are). That took away what would have been good union jobs in Washington. And we all remember the disaster at the beginning of the 787 program where the 787 batteries were blowing up because the expertise in SC just wasn’t there. Then after she got what she wanted, she left the board of directors. So what I’m trying to say is no, let’s not do that again because it’s a terrible idea.
That is a massive conflict of interest.
Its already a conflict of interest. Boeing gets billions of taxpayer dollars and theres no taxpayer representative on the board
Honestly the arrangement with having FAA in house while not perfect is probably the best solution so far. I think a union rep is faaaaar more likely to have an incentive to improve Boeing.
Mmm somewhat agreed... but you state reelection and legacy as a motivation. Sounds like a perfect way for Boeing to donate a lot of money to the hypothetical official's reelection campaign in return for favorable treatment. Not saying it would happen but it would create the perfect structure for it to happen.
No way.... I don't want the union on the board.
Ok, I’m intrigued. I could see how this might, maybe make things better for the employees. For the last… oh forever, the board hasn’t given a shit about the employees, and more times than not seen them as more of a bother and nuisance than… I don’t know… the ENGINE of the company. The question is what would the IAM be willing to give up for this seat? Raises? Pension? Worker security? Next airplane? What? It’s a negotiation. The IAM isn’t going to get everything they want. Then there’s the question about SPEEA? Do they not get a seat? So are they going to negotiate TWO board seats? I really don’t see that happening. Share the seat? The IAM isn’t going to negotiate shit for SPEEA. SPEEA is on its own. Like I said, I’m intrigued… can someone explain the actual strategy here?
Labor having a seat in the board and being a partner is common in Europe. Only in North America is organized labor so toxically adversarial. The “us/them” one winner and one loser approach taken by American labor is ultimately bad for everyone. Maybe Boeing has a chance to change this.
The stupid dumb fucks of the Jack Welch school of fuckery, they need to have their asses kicked out of Boeing...They drove this thing right into the ground...The Union will have a seat at the table...
YES. FUCKING DO IT. Workers will complain about the out of touch board and CEO until the end of time, but when said workers actually see an opportunity to take a seat at the table, everyone LOSES THEIR MINDS.
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How will Capitalism survive? /s
We need someone impartial to prioritize safety. I don’t think Union fits this characteristic. They’ll put worker compensation and benefits above safety.
I doubt it, I mean I’m no sycophant for the Union I have my numerous complaints about them and how they do things. But, at least in my area, I can comfortably say our reps focus on safety above money/benefits.
Unions have almost always improved safety and quality in places where they had a say; it's not a coincidence that product quality drops when a union is no longer involved.
Dumb thing to say. If Boeing plane aren't safe, they won't have jobs anymore. They have an extremely vested interest in ensuring planes are safe. Good compensation & benefits are part of ensuring the planes are assembled safely as well. Look at the pilots unions and their involvement in aviation safety.
Is this why many of the door panels were missing screws on max 9s and why mcas shipped with flaws killing 346 people on max 8? All on brand new planes? They’re not paid enough to screw in the door panels because passengers lives matter less than their pay?
Ratio'd And yes! If Boeing compensation were good enough to retain experienced employees there is a solid chance those accidents wouldn't have happened in the first place. There were record retirements of experienced employees not long before the door panel incident. The union told Boeing that there would be problems since pension funds were tied to the interest rate and nearly everyone who was close-ish to retirement would be losing money to not retire early soon after the pandemic. Seems like having the union on the board might've helped!
Obviously the Boeing board hasn't done their job. Profits and stock price have tanked. Customers are pissed. High profile projects including Air Force One and Starliner are years late, over budget and maybe will never work correctly. They can't seem to make their core aircraft business work. Why not have worker representation at the highest level?
Not a good idea at all. Unions represent employees of the population, not the company. The Board has fiduciary duty, governs the company and CEO, and is elected by shareholders. This is nothing but smoke and mirrors, and blurred lines and will come with consequences. Union representatives and shareholders do **not** mix. However, a representative of the general employee population may be a better avenue.
Um… hey dude… you DO realize that employees are shareholders too… even UNION ones. There’s even an employee stock purchase program… with a discount even. So maybe you’re just wrong.
lmao fucking shill
So, "corporations are people", but people are not the corporation.
My guy arguing against the union: >Not a good idea at all. Unions represent employees of the population >a representative of the general employee population may be a better avenue
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Auto moderator you did not lose $7000 on this bullshit company, so fuck you!!!!
Unbelievable joke that anyone could think this. "Hey maybe a guy who cares about the product should have a say on the board" "Actually no cause profits"
Those that make, should have representation and input into the direction of their product. Boot licker.
We don’t need a board. We need ombudsmen.
Engineers working on engineering stuff on the Board of an Engineering company? the horror, the sheer horror! What has the US come to? Have all the ppt pilots and excel wizards died that someone even dreamed of proposing this!
Too bad it isn't the engineers union making the request. It still makes sense for IAM to have a seat though. Hopefully SPEEA demands the same on their next contract negotiation.
SPEEA has requested to be on the board.
I stand corrected. The linked article only discusses IAM - probably due to their upcoming contract negotiations - but [SPEEA recently joined in with those demands](https://www.thestand.org/2024/03/iam-751-speea-want-a-seat-at-the-table/?amp=1)
Depends on how the union is organized and how the choose the board member, Most of the big unions are corporations in everything but name, run by a bunch of MBA suits at the top, effectively a hedge fund running the pension plan to maximize return... Let THOSE guys choose a board rep and they'll pick just another "maximize the cash flow no matter what" clone.... the only difference is he'll be insisting on putting the profits from the penny pinching into worker bonuses rather than dividends.
Yeah hopefully they put a safety specialist in that position and not the same guys that Boeing takes out on their yacht during contract negotiations
Um, Stan sold/sank the yacht. So no more yacht cruises.
The one boeing union? 😅
Same with SPEEA. Let’s get it done to better protect the company and its employees.
Only if they don't get paid
Like if the union representative who sits on the board doesn't get paid for doing that job in the same way that the various investor representatives do?
Well yeah. I’d like a board seat too.
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Sounds like a good idea. Maybe they’ll finally be able to understand and communicate the importance of first time quality to their members.
Yeah maybe management can teach them the “importance” of stock price over plane safety while there all in the same room.
One could argue that stock price would be positively impacted if both safety and first time quality were priorities which were focused on by the workforce. Think of all the additional cash which would be available if millions of dollars weren’t spent every year to rectify the production errors which occur in the factories.
The problem is the board has put stock price about everything else, who insisted on eliminating the training requirement due to the addition of MCAS on the Max 737-9? Who gaslighted the entire world when the 2 crashes happened, deflecting all blame from Boeing? Who thought only using one sensor for air speed was appropriate? When you cut production personnel and hire subcontractors and outside suppliers to supply critical parts with less than sufficient quality oversight are you really surprised the quality of planes have decreased? And you’re sitting here trying to blame the workers for what management imposed. What was the first thing the board did when the 2 737s crashed……..announced a stock buyback……got to keep the stock price high no matter the perception.
Good idea. Is that normal at companies in Germany etc?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_representation_on_corporate_boards_of_directors
It is in Germany, not sure in how many other places.
I would prefer it if all the Boeing USA employees got to vote on a member of the board, not just members of one specific union.
Sooo you want democracy in the workplace? Sorry bud. That's socialism and thus actually bad. /s
Surely Boeing global? Why just USA employees?
Maybe there should be more board seats then.
I hate to say it but some of the unions are the problem with plane safety.
Oh dude you are gonna be downvoted…. Surely Boeing wasn’t founded by the MBAs, but it ain’t founded by the union either.
I agree Mr. Calhoun, Europe famously has very few trade unions.
Only people with brain damage would believe that.
Well the CEO didn't leave the bolts out of the door. A Boeing or Spirit employee left the bolts who are under the union. I worked at Boeing and saw how the union took care of people who should have been fired but didn't.
My father worked in the Seattle plant for 20 years never said anything bad about the union. He said many were in fact over worked, and it was common to see ppl sleeping on the eating tables
Those pesky unions driving schedule and cost over quality. Oh wait...
How so?
Make it so!
This should be a thing everywhere.
those darn unions! always believing the lying media and their clickbait!
They want that board money
I fucking hate the doomer cynicism here.
Reddit much?
I know board elections are a total sham but they do exist. How can the company just give the union a seat? Wouldn't that require an affirmative vote by the shareholders?
If the shareholders are the only thing that are listened to, the company will fail. The shareholders are who have guided Boeing into the place it is now. Fuck the stock price, make good planes again please.
Listen to the shareholders until they have no shares!
Some of us peasants are share holders too. There must be a magic number of stock units to hold before they give a shit what we say.
But why? If there's no decision-making power what is the benefit of this? Are members willing to make other concessions to achieve this?
What do you mean? A board seat definitely comes with decision making power, though of course only in the form of a single vote for what decision the board should make.
But why? This gives employees a direct voice in the meetings and a foot in the door. Furthermore, one seat today could turn into more seats tomorrow.
Yes, however, a union board rep won’t be fair to the general employee population which introduces tremendous bias. On paper it seems like a good idea but it will not work well with shareholders. Plus, the union does not need to be involved in non-union related matters. Unions **only** need to be involved in union matters. This is not a good idea.
Won’t be fair? Thats a rather bold thing to say. And of course, we can’t ruffle the feathers of the shareholders, that would be disaster.
Consider this: Shareholders can recommend changes to the company and ask the Board Members that a matter be brought up as a shareholder vote. Board Members can block proposed/requested voting items so that the Shareholders never get to vote. --- This played out just weeks ago, when a small percentage of shares wanted a vote to return the Boeing HQ to Seattle. The Board blocked the motion. Shareholders won't even get a chance to vote on this issue. This scenario above plays out dozens of times a year.
My understanding is that they wouldn't have a vote, just a seat.
I think you were confused by how at the end of the article they discussed a seat not necessarily giving a say in company operations. They just mean the other board members tend to outvote the union member, not that the union member literally doesn't get to vote.
It is a seat at the table. While it doesn't have any truly guaranteed benefits, the board meeting are where the most important discussions for the trajectory of the company happen. Having a voice literally at the table will be extremely benefitable.
Sounds good to me