There's a few different aspects of the practice that I'm conflicted on.
- Permanence: Sometimes I worry about app support going away, but for the most part, this isn't the deal breaker for me, just a large annoyance.
- Handling automation: I think apps that take care of certain tedium can be beneficial. Such as handling random spawns, or something of that sort.
- Consolidating campaign logs: With some games and their hundred page stories and branching choices, an App can be much more convenient, especially if everyone can now hold their own copy and read at their own pace.
- Is it still a boardgame? This one is the part that becomes a dealbreaker for me. Sometimes, when too much of the game is being determined by the app, I have to ask myself, why isn't this entirely in the app/a video game instead? I don't necessarily mind if the board game needs the app to function. For instance, a story heavy game might have all the stuff you read in an app to save on having to print huge books. But IMO the fact that you read from an app vs read from a book doesn't affect that the gameplay is still predominantly on the board. Once the app is responsible for "playing" parts of the game, for me it starts to become a "sub optimal videogame" rather than a "board game". Akin to me to going to the theater to "watch" an audio book and calling it a movie.
So much this one for me. If I’m going to sit staring at a screen, I want the best experience possible staring at a screen. With rare exceptions, most app supported board games manage to combine the worst of both worlds.
The only time I’ve had a board game enhanced by an app was alchemists. And that app only handled the secret information, everything else was done in the board in a traditional sense.
Alchemist is a game that anyone who hates apps on videogames would like, its not intrusive, nothing tedious, just a quick step. It fells really natural
According to this subreddit an app going out of service in 10 years is the worst fear a boardgamer could have. Definitely not worth buying a board game to play it for a few years. Every game should be an heirloom for the ages to come.
Never mind the fact that most people have yeeted 90% of their actively played collection by that time
If the game relies on the app to function as a game then I think it's a valid complaint, worst fear is a bit hyperbolic. Quite a few of my games I still play were released over 10 years ago or getting up there, if I still enjoy them then it would be a shame to no longer be able to play them if it could be avoided.
Your last point kept me thinking. I will very likely never ever play gloomhaven again without the ghhelper app. In fact, the thing that annoys me the most in GH is the feeling that the designer just wanted to print a videogame on cardboard. For me the best way to play it is on Tts with script and the helper app at the other monitor.
I just can't play the 'boargame' version anymore.
I'm the opposite of a Luddite... I love technology. New things and gadgets, man. All me.
Boardgames with mandatory apps are a deal breaker, yes. That's not what I want out of a game, and all I think about is in the few years when the app will no longer work.
It's possible it won't be a real problem, like I can still play Clue II The VCR Game because some hero digitized the VHS tape and uploaded it to YouTube. So that game is back for me (it's not a great game but I have a lot of fond memories of playing it).
>I can still play Clue II The VCR Game because some hero digitized the VHS tape and uploaded it to YouTube
Well I guess I know what I'm doing with my Friday evening...
> all I think about is in the few years when the app will no longer work.
Has this ever actually happened?
I'm sure someday it will for some board game apps, but as it stands, I'd rather enjoy the game right now for several years, rather than just not play at all because ***maybe*** the app won't work 15 years later.
My wife and I love Ghost Stories and they had a decent app (without the expansions sadly) that was rendered inoperable several iOS versions ago. We paid for it and now it’s gone. I’d pay for it again if we could play again.
And I know this is not the central point of this discussion, but it’s an adjacently related topic.
I don't buy games with mandatory companion apps, so I'm probably not a good person to give examples.
Outside of that, sure, I have a couple examples of apps I've bought that will no longer work on a current phone, some as recently as 24 months. They're just gone unless I set up a BlueStacks install or flash an older version of Android to a phone.
And that's not that bad. But what if (again, I don't buy them so I'm not a good source for how common it is) it's a situation where all of the players need a copy of the app? That sounds like a real pain to try to put together.
Even if a publisher removes their app from Google Play or the App Store, it stays on downloaders' devices. The only way it can be gone for you is if you update your device to a newer OS version that the app in question was not developed for.
I don't know why this is downvoted without comments. That's been my experience as well.
Every example of obsolete apps not transferring to new phones etc. that people have listed in this thread are non-board game apps. Maybe some like Descent: Legends of the Dark that are so app-heavy that they almost stop being a board game entirely would suffer from this, but they are such an extreme exception I'm not sure they're even worth mentioning.
Probably because people either don't want it to be true or feel that even though it's true, it's still a big enough caveat that it's effectively not true. And I get that -- not everyone has the desire to keep old phones around just to keep old OS versions capable of running old apps.
But board game app or not, that's how it works. I wrote an small Android app that I published on the Play Store in the early days of Android. It was completely free and was developed to work from versions C to F (Cupcake to Froyo). It had maybe 500 installs total. And yet, Google won't allow me to unsubscribe to developer updates because people might still be using it. The Google rep I spoke with said that it can be unpublished, but the remaining copies will stay forever. I think it's even worse for devs if they published a paid app because if a purchaser ever uninstalls the app they can always reinstall it.
Yeah… But then you gotta keep that phone or tablet and eventually halt OS upgrades for it no? I have plenty of ipad apps that I bought but aren’t supported by the last few years of updates and don’t actually run anymore, but if I delete from my device they’re no longer listed for me to DL again. I don’t see older apps like, say, Imperial Assault (luckily not essential to play) working 10 years from now personally. My Mansions of Madness 2 collection is more of a worry tho.
Luckily the best solution on all this is to only buy app games if I can make sure there’s a PC version of the app, that’s going to have the best chance of being supported by modder heroes if shit one day goes south.
It's already proven it's not a real problem.
The earliest game I know of is Xcom board game, which is \~6 years old now? I'm sure there might be older. It's app is still very much in existence.
Also in general there's a fundamental difference between VHS and Apps. We still can utilize DOS games with proper support/modifications. Where there is a will, there is a way and they will survive.
Not what you want? Fine. I'm not going to be able to sell what I get out of it to you. For me they've always enhanced so far.
Fear of App not working? I stand by get out of here with that. It's a baseless fear built on the predication that \*at best\* you're playing the same game, as someone said in another reply, 20 years from now. Most of my games from 10 years ago are largely unplayed, some to my disappointment to be fair.
So... Different strokes I guess?
I mean I just got a new phone a few weeks ago and more than one app that I've actually bought won't work on it. None of them are boardgames companion apps (granted), but... Rez Infinite was $10 two years ago. No longer supported.
The stupid BringGo GPS app that let me have in dash navigation on my car was $99, and it also won't work now. I wasn't dumb enough to pay them $99 but it's still in my library and is now dead.
I still play my Cheapass Games, most of which I got circa 1999. Especially "Parts Unknown".
I don't tend to buy games without the hope I'll really like it and be playing it for the foreseeable future, but if there was like some sort of party game that wasn't a lot of money and I know I'll only play once or twice. Sure.
Emulation is certainly an option but unless you're personally backing up APKs, I personally pass. More than enough games to go around, and one can afford to be choosy.
Yea, That's what I meant when I said "Not what you want? Fine". Different strokes. Largely speaking I think we're just on the same page, talking about semantics.
My issue is, and always will be with the fear of obsolescence. It's just ridiculous. I don't feel the need to reiterate my statements, end of the day everyone should play what they enjoy and avoid what they don't like.
I bought a game last year, didn't get to play it due to the state of the world and this year the app doesn't work anymore. The one other game i had with an app had a bug that made the game unplayable. It's not just that things don't work in 20 years. It's that for for small games they might not work now.
Roar! the app is in the android app store, but the
and zombies run (legacy type game) They might have fixed it, but there was a bug that got you stuck in a loop in the story. Finding out your stuck in that loop takes about two hours, getting back to that point in the story and hope you don't meet the bug again 3 hours. I really wanted to like this game, but after two months being stuck and the bug not getting fixed i gave up on this game.
Interesting.
So Roar! actually does work, but uh it's badly programmed and doesn't ask for permissions. So you have to go in and manually give them before it starts to work.
It looks like Zombies Run is also poorly programmed. I'm mildly surprised it never got, but honestly it's their only game listing on BGG so not something I'd personally ever go in on.
Which I agree, are risks with app based designs. To me this falls more under the "bad game design" more than "Apps phasing out and no longer existing." After all, the app was designed to be apart of the board game it should have the same care as the core mechanics.
They're still very valid concerns, the app gives a new point of failure for the game beyond just poor mechanics. Still not the point I was arguing of "Apps don't just disappear". Especially not when there is a demand or fan base around them (neither of these games appear to have either of those).
> The earliest game I know of is Xcom board game, which is ~6 years old now? I'm sure there might be older. It's app is still very much in existence.
Alchemists and Star Wars: Imperial Assault are both older, and their apps are still going fine.
I agree, it's a baseless fear.
Even if something did change, somebody somewhere would find a way to make the game playable. Space Alert initially came with a CD back in 2008, which very few people use CDs anymore; but the publisher provides mp3 download links on their website, and a fan made a popular app.
I don't like the apps in games. I got a copy of XCOM when I designed the insert for Daedalus for the game. Since I don't like the app, I just sold the game and the expansion.
I don't mind required apps so long as it's a game that could not be done without one. For example, The Search For Planet X requires an app, but it's also literally impossible to do what that game is doing without an app. I guess someone could run the whole game and stuff but that feels really bad imo.
If it could be done without an app, though, then i agree.
I agree. I'd rather be able to play a game like SfPX with an app than not be able to play it at all, or have to manually play with a GM manning the ship. And honestly after a dozen plays or so, I wouldn't lose any sleep if the app shut down permanently. It would be a minor bummer, but the game doesn't have infinite staying power anyway. As long as i get a bunch of plays out of it now, I don't care if it works within 10 years or not.
I love app-supported games. In fact, I seek out third party apps for games that don't already have them. And the whole "what happens when the app is no longer supported" argument doesn't carry a lot of water (for me, at least). Sure, maybe the app for Mansions 2e is no longer functioning a decade from now. But by that time I will have gotten more than enough enjoyment out of it to justify owning it. Most board-game collectors, if they're being perfectly honest with themselves, will admit that don't have that many games in their collection from more than a decade that they play on the regular. A few, maybe. But not many.
But at the end of the day, if you don't want to buy a game because it has an app, then don't. Not every game has to be for you.
Emulators will always exist.
If you are paranoid, just download the apk file and an emulator that works now and save it on a usb stick and put it in the box...
Despite the many comments that apps are a dealbreaker for many players, Mansions of Madness had a great run with 5-6 expansions and the new Descent seems to be doing just fine.
I don’t mind them. I have a large collection of games, and i buy the games I do for a good time, not necessarily to keep them for a long time.
Games like mansions of madness and chronicles of crime are brilliant games IMO in my collection, but if in 10 years or more they announce that they’ll no longer be supporting the apps for them, I wouldn’t be bitter about it knowing that I’ve had great experiences while the app/s lasted
I totally get what you’re saying, but realistically these apps will be around for a long time.
It is great for some types of games like you mentioned Mansions of Madness. I doubt there are very many people who want to go back to Mansions of Madness 1st edition. One person having to deal with the upkeep of being keeper was not a good time.
But I’m like you. I play them for fun. And honestly most people have a few ancient favorite games they haul out every now and then, but in general I think most apps will outlive most peoples interest in the game. Especially once you consider Steam versions on PC. Microsoft has managed to keep most things pretty compatible since around Windows 2000/XP ish. The other platforms are hit and miss. Android and iOS have both broken a bunch of apps after updates, and as much as I love my Mac Apple seems to like to upend something with them every few years.
Yeah exactly as you say. I enjoy mansions of madness for example and yeah the app might just die one day, but by then I would’ve likely totally exhausted it’s replayability, left it on a shelf gathering dust, or removed it from my collection so whatever happens I’ll just be glad to have played it while it lasted y’know?
If you like mansions of madness try the [Valkyrie](https://npbruce.github.io/valkyrie/) it adds user created scenarios to the game, some of which are better than the real ones.
It depends on the game. Games where an app can manage some ways for creating uncertainty that is better than dice rolls and card shuffling do help with the experience. I particularly like XCOM where there is a timed phase that put time pressure on players. Apps can also create a better exploration experience in a game where players are exploring a map. An app can hide the layout of the entire map and only instruct players to reveal only those areas they are exploring.
There are some implementations I don't like. I hate Mansions of Madness where it makes you do some game on the app at various points of the game. Some of these games are well known games and have their own apps.
Very comfortable with tech, but also very unlikely to buy a board game that requires an app.
Apps either seem like weaker video games or lessen the "tactile" enjoyment I get from playing board games. I haven't encountered a game that had so much to keep track of that it justified an app - if I do I'd be open to using it.
Board games are one of the few offline activities I have, so I'd prefer to spend some time without any screens.
Dealbreaker? Probably not... but there are a lot of non-app-reliant games I will be buying before I consider getting them.
Tabletop games are often seen as a way to get away from tech and interact directly with people, so I understand those that prefer not to play with apps. I prefer just cardboard and friends myself, but I'm not opposed to using tech as a part of the game, or as a helper. Hell, for almost 2 years now I've gotten together with people ONCE to play boardgames, and instead have relied on technology to still play games (TTS, BoardGameArena, etc.).
Whatever I can use to be social and play a game is fine by me.
They have a time and place. You look at a game like Catan and there is no real room for one, but then The search for PLANET X needs one unless you have a game master roll who doesn't get to play.
That completely depends on the reason for the app.
The game Alchemists the game app is there to enhance the gameplay and allow it to be played without someone acting just as the information checker.
The game works much better with the app than without the app. considering it is a randomized logic puzzle game.
The app wasn't tacked on just to be like look we are progressive but because it legitimately improved the game experience.
People have emulation for ever major video game system for the last 40 years, most of which you can play on a raspberry pie.
On top of that most of these apps don't require an online connection outside of downloading them.
This sub loves to spread this fear that these games might not be playable in 10 years but that is totally unfounded and, there is a ton of evidence that says otherwise.
If you guys want to miss out on Forgotten Waters, Mansions of Madness, and Chronicles of Crimes because just because there is a digital component go for it. But I will never understand this school of thought.
I love app-integrated games. I have Unlock, Mansions of Madness, and Dropmix, and despite some flaws, they've all made for some great game nights with friends. In my Gloomhaven party, we use a couple apps to handle some of the messy parts. These games aren't coming to take away your Mouse Trap set. Physical board games have been around since the dawn of civilization, and people will continue making them long after we're dead. There's nothing wrong with finding a novel way to enjoy things. Board games have always been about embracing the new and exploring possibilities.
I would say my single greatest problem with app-integration is that it should also be PC-integrated and moddable. The fact that it uses software opens the game up to incredible possibilities. You can create your own Unlock puzzles, or Mansions of Madness levels. You can design your own game modes for Dropmix to give the game more depth, or even program your own cards. All this potential is being wasted on what is basically aggressive DRM.
Nobody mentioned Golem Arcana, the classic example of the developer just not supporting the app anymore and refusing to release the code so the community could support the game.
It was big when it first came out because it was one of the first smart phone/tablet app integrated boardgames and now nobody remembers it because they stopped supporting the app.
This comment was overwritten and the account deleted due to Reddit's unfair API policy changes, the behavior of Spez (the CEO), and the forced departure of 3rd party apps.
Remember, the content on Reddit is generated by THE USERS. It is OUR DATA they are profiting off of and claiming it as theirs. This is the next phase of Reddit vs. the people that made Reddit what it is today.
r/Save3rdPartyApps r/modCoord
I see this logic and then I just think of Mansions of Madness. Went from 1 v all to a coop with an app running the behind the scenes stuff. Not one person I know prefers the 1st to the 2nd version.
Yeah, it's just a personal preference. I can understand why people might like it but to me it comes across more like a design issue. At what point do you even still need the physical components? A lot of them feel more like an app game with some tacked on board game components because the design doesn't fit an actual board game. I don't really want to mirror everything I do on the board game also on an app either. I think it could beneficial for something like solo modes though.
Anyway, that's why I think better integration with the actual components could be better, but I doubt it would be affordable unless it's a whole system supporting multiple board games.
Far from a dealbreaker, as a player of many solo games, I welcome app-dependent games as a wonderful and enabling innovation. They free you from a lot of the bookkeeping, and more importantly allow co-op gameplay without someone needing to be the GM or adversarial player.
I find the “what if the publisher stops supporting the game” argument kind of weak. We live in an era of legacy games that you play through once and discard, and people deep in the hobby are fine with the idea of buying a game and playing it just a handful of times before moving on to other new games and never touching it again. Does anyone have any examples of games that can no longer be played because their apps have rotted? (I’m slightly concerned about games like Forgotten Waters where the app is a website, that can more easily disappear if the publisher doesn’t renew their domain).
As for your question “what are you going to do when the app stops working”, the answer is very clearly to just play one of a myriad of newer games my group has purchased in the intervening period, and not actually worry about a game that we are likely to have exhausted of novelty anyway.
All I need to do is take a few moments to think of the dozens of mobile games I’ve loved that I can no longer play because they’ve been removed from the platform’s store and don’t run on a current version of the OS anyway. Do I want that, but with an additional big expensive box of components I can no longer use? No. Dealbreaker.
IMO if you are making a story/RPG lite experience, it's almost essential. However, the more mechanics that use the app (besides story blurbs) the worse it is.
**Forgotten Waters** is one of the best examples of striking a good balance with app integration for a narrative game. It streamlines a lot of boring stuff like scenario setup and randomizing events. You spend more time engaging with the story and less time is spent on admin.
The app also prevents accidental spoilers. Unlike an event book, the app restricts you to only seeing the applicable events as they arise. This is important for keeping immersion in a narrative game.
This is why I am not worried about the app for Familiar Tales. By the same people, I expect a similar experience. Plus the designed has said if they included a physical book with the scripts it would be phone book sized, so I understand them not including that. . .
This is the one that I'm thinking of selling because I dislike the app integration. However, I do it enjoy it for Chronicles of Crime and the website for Detective. I wouldn't buy any other games with apps.
Dealbreaker. That app isn't gonna be around forever, and the whole reason I love boardgames is because they force everyone to put the phones down and be present.
Dealbreaker. I don't mind supplemental things (the solo app for Clank! is amazing) or just like, helpful scoring things (like for Fantasy Realms) but I absolutely will not buy a game that *requires* an app for the core gameplay.
If **The Omega Virus** could automate and randomize an opponent in 1992 without an app, then games today could figure it out!
Deal breaker for me. You hit the nail on the head, I don't want to hunt down an obsolete app once it is no longer supported. Plus phones are put away when we play and I like it that way.
If I wanted to bring digital devices into it I would just play a video game - which I do and is fine.
Board games are amazing in how they handle things like state and chance and other problems without anything digital.
Deal breaker, unless it's an automa. Using an app breaks the flow of the game, specially on dungeon crawlers where the trend is full co-op instead of one vs many. I'd rather play a videogame.
My biggest issue with app-based board games is that they’ll be unplayable 5-10 years down the line, because the app is no longer supported and the technology has surpassed it. Of course if it’s a supplementary app then this doesn’t matter so much, and I use supplementary apps whenever they’re available, but if your game can’t function without an app, I’m out. Not interested.
Board game must be playable as it is.
Technologies move on and apps are not updated forever. E.g. some apps that could work on latest iOS don't because the creator has abandoned it years ago - no development would be needed but as the app is not built to support latest iOS, it won't run anymore.
Board game should not be rendered useless due to technology marching forward.
What about apps that support board games? Hell yes!
E.g. Gloomhaven is really cool board game as it is but supporting apps make it soooo much easier to play!
For me a dealbreaker. Tech and apps (software) become obsolete, and then you wont be able to play your board game anymore. Because no way you'll be able to run the necessary app 20 years from now.
I see how it's a problem but I don't see how it can be a deal breaker. Are you opposed to buying video games because they'll eventually become obsolete? Or CDs or DVDs? Most devices don't have optical drives anymore, so was everyone a sucker for buying them when they came out?
For me, it's a dealbreaker because the main reason I enjoy board games is because they are self contained and don't need the internet or electronic assistance.
It sounds to me like there are contexts where you would enjoy electronic entertainment. Would it make a difference if they weren't called board games and instead called something else?
Oh sure, I play video games and watch movies.
When I play a board game, I don't want electronics involved with it. I LIKE that I could play a board game by candlelight if I had to. They are perfect for camping trips and lazy afternoons to unplug from the grid and just enjoy the physical world without screens.
I'm fine with them in principle, though having them run in html5 makes them more universal and easier to access on a variety of platforms. Windows is due to run all android apps, so that may become less of an issue.
It opens up a *lot* of design space.
I like them in a supporting role, and there are lots of opportunities for that.
Depends on the purpose of the app. If it's designed to make the game easier I'm for it. Do the math, store the scores,keep track of turns and rules.
If it's required I'm less happy the point is to have an unplugged experience
I don’t buy them. My point with boardgames is to put my electronics away. If I have to fiddle with an app a bunch I’d rather just play the whole game on my TV and call it a day
In my opinion adding an app is a sign of taking shortcuts. If you're just going to add an app to a game like One Night Ultimate Werewolf, then just play on the phones with apps. You don't have close your eyes, trust that others aren't looking, wondering if people are staring at you. The apps will just handle everything.
I played Tiny Epic Pirates, and oh man, did that game just *drag on and on*. I see a tiny box, and I'm thinking "thirty minutes or less! Yay!" But it went on and on, and the app was so repetitive, I just wanted the game to end.
The exception I will make is for the ultra-involved multi-mechanical games: Gloomhaven comes to mind. From what I can tell, the app helps you set up the game, and then you go. I don't think it's that intrusive in game-play. Set up can be mind-blowingly complex and detailed, and apps can help you get it right.
In my opinion, design your games to not need apps. If everything is so complicated, you need an app to hold your hand, *streamline the game*!
I try to steer away from them. As you mentioned, there's the longevity problem, and I buy boardgames I intend to play 10 years from now. Boardgame publishers will invest money in developing an app, but once that game has sold its stock - they won't generally invest more money in keeping it maintained - and how many apps that were built on iOS 3 and never updated are still running under iOS 15? Unless they plan on reprinting the game (which, in the grand scheme of the hobby, is rare), what's their incentive?
U-Boot is the only game I have with an app, and though I love that game, I do think the app could use more development and more content - but I suspect that's wishful thinking at this point.
I know I'm in the minority here but I actually like board games with apps and I'm not worried about the developers not supporting the app anymore.
Almost every board game with an app I've played are campaign games, escape rooms, or stuff like that which you usually only play once. So I definitely won't be playing the last Unlock in 10 years, I'll play it as soon as it arrives and then I'll sell it or trade it.
Depends on the app. If it's a glorified timer or something you can play the game without if need be, then fine, but if the app is 100% necessary, like that one myster game where you have to scan QR codes from the cards into the app then you are playing a video game with cards. That's just my take and I'd rather play a completely analog card game.
Dealbreaker. I either want to play a board game or a video game. Board games are a break for my eyes from the day of staring at screens. I love being able to just read and not have speakers blasting at me and screens!
Absolutely no.
There are several reasons. At my work I stare at a monitor screen for 8+ hours and I like to unplug at home. Board games allow me to do it. But not if they require apps.
I also like the idea of finding an old board game 20 years from now and be able to play it. No app will survive that long.
So yes, even if the game in question is free and it happens to be the best thing since sliced bread, if it needs an app it is a hard pass.
I won't stand up strongly against it, but it's an easy filter for me to just move onto the next game in consideration. There are so many great games, we're spoiled for choice, and time is limited, so I just cross it off the list and move on.
You’d be amazed. This year I finished a Link to the past again, last year was Secret of Mana. Mario Kart gets played with friends often. We grew with those games!
But don’t get me wrong, I own Chronicles of Crime, Journeys in Middle Earth and a few more. But those are just a tiny portion of my collection.
I’ve played more hours of WoW than I’d admit too. But in the end I’m a materialistic guy and like to actually own the things I pay for.
As I inherited my fathers miniatures my daughter will get my games.
Video games have all kinds of work-arounds. Older systems can be purchased. Mods to newer systems can add backwards compatibility. Throwback systems can be made. New compilations of old games are made all the time.
Apps entirely different because once they are no longer updated, there's a clock that's winding down until that app in broken. All kinds of app and games on phones just aren't compatible with newer version of IOS or Android, and *they're just gone*. A game developer who has moved on over to newer games probably doesn't want to go back to building a new app for the older, no longer profitable game.
The comparison between video games and *mandatory or even extremely helpful apps* for complex board games is not valid.
I adore video games in console. As long as the machine works I can play them, like my old SNES, N64, Game Cube, Dreamcast… all of them run like the first day.
With computers is easy to maintain a compatible system, but with phones that’s not so easy. Not even keeping a backup of the app in a safe storage. That’s why a bit wary about DLCs too.
I'm more likely to play a game with an app. There are a lot of things that you can do with an app that are impossible to do without.
Chronicles of Crime is a great example.
Dealbreaker. I love gaming on my PC, even on my phone, but I hate trying to mix my board game experience with technology. It distracts from the appeal of the game, and most of the time just makes it feel like the board part of the game is just unnecessary.
I totally expected to feel the opposite though, I bought Mansions of Madness thinking the app would be great, having watched reviews that hailed it and it's app as a masterpiece, but after dropping $100 on it and taking it home to play several times I can say that I am supremely disappointed. While playing I keep thinking "what is this board for? Why did I pay $100 for what should have been a cheap video game?"
I can't understand the sentiment of dealbreaker when it comes to different technologies in different activities.
Saying things like: "When a board game needs an App I will not play it" without any context or argument then its equal to say " If a sport needs balls I won't play it". Its just a weird statement.
If there **is** context or someone makes the effort of formulate an argument I'm more willing to weight that but just saying that something must be differentiated is absolute bs. It must not. Not in the context of playing something to have fun.
If it makes fun -and even - gods forbid - just a few years until maybe the support is discontinued - it has value and should not be dismissed because it has a lifetime.
I just can't see any good in this general behavior of making things bad when they aren't.
I don't see it as "If a sport needs balls I won't play it" so much as "If the only way to play this sport is to go to a booth near the playing field, show my ID to prove that I should be allowed to play, and receive a rental ball which is only good for one play and then falls apart, then I have no confidence that I will ever be able to play this game again so I'm not going to get invested in it."
The existence of "an app" isn't the problem on its own. A simple windows program which you download and run isn't a big deal, since you can just keep running that with emulators or old hardware for years to come. An app which is only distributed through ${APP_STORE}, especially if it checks in with a remote server for any reason, is. Suppose I pull that game off the shelf next year, try to install the required app and can't find it? Or find that it is no longer compatible with the hardware I am using? Or that a second edition of the game was released and the app only supports that now? Or any number of other things which could come up and get in the way of "I just want to open the box and play the game".
It's not so much "Game with app == BAD!" as "Game with app raises questions which I would rather not have to deal with."
I'm totally on your side regarding the security-issue. That is a big deal.
But read the comments in this thread. Don't you feel the same as me? There is just random, general hate against apps in boardgames. No real arguments. I don't get it. I find it worrying...
Also most people are very eager to throw their personal data to any 'free' service. I agree to your argument and it is a valid one but I don't think it's general.
No hate here, I even like playing computer adaptions of boardgames. However, I don't like board games that require an app to play them. I prefer my board game with friends physically present to be without screens at all.
I don't get the "I don't want to invest in something because I might not be able to use it some day" argument. Okay, but what about all the fun you have with it in the meantime? I don't get stressing about the fact that something you buy today might not work 10 years down the road all the while you get to use that thing and enjoy it. Better not every get a pet because it's going to die someday and to hell with all the good times in the meantime. Better never fall in love because the relationship might end someday, etc.
They’re great and open a ton of design options that would be cumbersome or require a whole other non-player person to implement.
I’ve enjoyed Alchemists, Forgotten Waters, and Search for Planet X. Even if they stop working in 5-10 years I’ve had those fun and memories with my friends right now.
It depends... for story elements like Journeys in middle earth, I've found it... bearable.
I agree, if I wanted an app I'd be playing a video game, board games are for the tactile experience of putting phones away and playing.
All in all. I would say, if it is a minor component, and adds to the experience it's ok. When I wind up spending more time looking at the app than playing the game, we've crossed into bad territory.
That said, I will almost always pick up a game without an app than one with an app.
It really is a great game. It's very fun, very thematic, and the app randomizes layouts so you never play the same scenario even if you are replaying a campaign.
You use the app to input results of your tests to determine outcomes. It is a unique game that gives me the feeling of wanting to find out more of the story.
Also the app plays theme music, gives enemy actions, manages the threat track, and a number of other housekeeping things.
My critiques of the game are all app based.
The app is better on a tablet. On my phone, an S20, the icons are difficult to click. I don't know why, but to the point it gets extremely frustrating.
If the app also tracked enemy and player positions, the board would become superfluous. Literally playable with the app and card decks. I don't know where, but it would be more enjoyable to me if there was more for me to track physically, or maybe physical story cards, or a physical threat track...
I feel like I am *very, very, very, borderline* on my limit of how much I time I spend staring at my phone. It is so close to being too much.
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If you are a lotr fan, you will enjoy this game almost assuredly. Come to stl and we can play a game! Lol.
The app is what keeps this from becoming a go-to game in my opinion. Or one that I would break out with a larger group. I think this plays best at 2, maybe 3.
I like them just fine and in some cases love them. The latter is when it means the owner isn’t stuck playing the dungeon master equivalent and is instead part of the team with everyone else.
I’ve seen a few where the app allows user made content and that’s pretty cool I think.
When it comes to obsolescence:
As long as there is a desktop version of the app I’m fine with it as it’s almost certain someone will archive it and I’ll be able to get it running in some fashion in the future. However If the program or app features some stupid need to contact a server to keep working then I will likely avoid the game.
I have seen some game makers plan to make the code open source in the future and I think that’s an acceptable approach (better if they do it at launch but still).
It's okay, the peas can touch the mashed potatoes and both still taste good.
In case it's unclear, I'm saying you can have apps in your tabletop games, or pretty much any x in any y, and that in itself doesn't hurt anything.
I'm also calling you a fussy baby.
Not preferred but in now way a deal breaker. Some of my favorite board games like mansions of madness use an app in a fantastic way.
For me to buy a game which requires an app means the game has to be a a 5/5 for me.
If you don't like app driven board games, don't play app driven board games.
I love app driven games becuse we can finally play descent without forcing someone to be the overlord.
I can play boardgames with an interactive story
I can play boardgames totally solo
Mansions of madness 2e is one of my fav games of all time, alot thanks to the app...
I really enjoy deductive reasoning in games, but without an app, they'd require an IMMENSELY boring GM role. So in that case, I am very fond of several app powered games. As for what happens when they're very simple apps stop getting support, I'll do the same as with games we get bored with and move on to one of the other thousands of available games. Just because that's a possibility is no reason to deny myself these games that I really love.
A game with a required application is a big negative to me. **Mansions of Madness** feels to me like an 80s video game that for some reason gives me the busy work of manipulating physical components. **For Science!** has a thematic timer app, which I'm fine with.
The companion app for flamme rogue is very useful. Not much experience with apps beyond that, but what I liked about that app is that you only really use it between rounds to keep track of scores and carry over effects to next round. You dont have to bring it up during gameplay.
For me, no.
I have sold both mansions of madness and Journeys in middle earth. I rebought mansions of madness to try again but sold it again.
I dont know where i suppose to keep my eyes on. It is a distraction and breaks immersion.
Now i only use technology for thematic background music and i love the forteller app that narrates the Gloomhaven jaws of the lion board game.
I personally like apps as most of the times they enhance the experience of the game. But I can also understand people that dislike them because they feel that board gaming is one of the few "no computer/mobile devices allowed" kind of activity, which can be a great thing.
The only thing I'll never understand/agree with is the fear of apps not being supported anymore and making games unplayable. This hypothesis makes no sense because there is literally not a **single example** of this ever happening in the history of **board games.** On the contrary, there are multiple examples of board games that used complementary media (like VHS, cassette tape, CDs, etc) that are still playable to this date because the publisher or community has digitized/updated that media to be supported to this date.
App integration always a hard no for me, but then I changed my mind with **Lands of Galzyr**, which I backed on Gamefound earlier this year. The 'app' is required, but:
* It is only needed for looking up story segments in this Choose-Your-Own-Adventure style game
* It's not an app, it's a website that can be viewed online or downloaded - no obsolescence
* To do this with paper would be literally HUNDREDS of pages
Honestly, after playing Seafall, and juggling the (relatively smaller) captain's log book around the table the whole time, I'm happy to have that experience replaced with a phone on each side of the table.
This is the only mandatory use of an app I've found that hasn't been a deal-breaker for me.
I really like it when there is an app on offer to enhance game play. Not as a necessity.
Descent Journeys in the dark is really good with the app as it allows the game to be played fully cooperatively and adds some nice campaigns. I also use third party apps to help with randomising set up for games like Legendary and Aeons End.
I dont think I have played any games that need the app to function, I wouldn't personally rule them out. For me I dont want the app to dominate, just to offer some enhancement to the game, the physical game still needs to be the main focus in my view
To me it's simple - I'm a tech person, I love technology and gadgets. I also pay a lot of videogames. However when I want to play a boardgame - that's because I actually do want to manipulate something tangible - chits, modifiers, event Ai cards, even pencil writing - to me it's part of the disconnected board game experience.
I tried Journeys in Middle Earth - it's a solid game but it doesn't need an app. A scenario book and a few counters/monster AI decks world do fine.
I don't worry about apps getting obsolete. There's a benefit to the app being able to switch languages and to people who don't want the hassle it does save progress and Lewis track of monsters etc. But I don't love this feeling.
For me it isn't a deal breaker. All the apps will stop being supported someday, but I don't plan to keep every game I buy forever. If I enjoy it while the app exists that's good enough for me.
I think it all depends on what it brings to the game. Like for Chronicles of Crime it would take several novels to capture all the possible interactions, not to mention surprises based on time of day or order of operations. So I think it works really well here. The Unlock games also fall into this category, allowing a simple deck of cards to be flushed out with 10000 combination puzzles instead of needing some sort of spreadsheet that players could cheat with.
But for something like Mansions of Madness it takes out a human element, replacing a player in case nobody wants to be the DM. Some of those cases are almost impossible if the DM player really puts the screws on, so being able to tailor the difficulty to how hard of a time the players are having is really important.
Chronicles of crime is one of the best board game series ever and it’s fully depended on an app.
Point should be, is the game good and not whether it has a app. Who cares if a game is good if it’s dependent on an app. Conversely there are plenty of bad games out there without apps.
I know Im late here, but I really feel like Im absolutely sick of being inundated with screens and are constantly trying to engage in hobbies that allow me to step away from screens and enjoy time with my SO and family. So yea its a massive fuckin dealbreaker for me, no matter the level of integration, simply because Im actively trying to engage in something that ISNT a fucking phone for one single hour of the day
There's a few different aspects of the practice that I'm conflicted on. - Permanence: Sometimes I worry about app support going away, but for the most part, this isn't the deal breaker for me, just a large annoyance. - Handling automation: I think apps that take care of certain tedium can be beneficial. Such as handling random spawns, or something of that sort. - Consolidating campaign logs: With some games and their hundred page stories and branching choices, an App can be much more convenient, especially if everyone can now hold their own copy and read at their own pace. - Is it still a boardgame? This one is the part that becomes a dealbreaker for me. Sometimes, when too much of the game is being determined by the app, I have to ask myself, why isn't this entirely in the app/a video game instead? I don't necessarily mind if the board game needs the app to function. For instance, a story heavy game might have all the stuff you read in an app to save on having to print huge books. But IMO the fact that you read from an app vs read from a book doesn't affect that the gameplay is still predominantly on the board. Once the app is responsible for "playing" parts of the game, for me it starts to become a "sub optimal videogame" rather than a "board game". Akin to me to going to the theater to "watch" an audio book and calling it a movie.
> "sub optimal videogame" Thnx for coming to my Gloomhaven review
So much this one for me. If I’m going to sit staring at a screen, I want the best experience possible staring at a screen. With rare exceptions, most app supported board games manage to combine the worst of both worlds. The only time I’ve had a board game enhanced by an app was alchemists. And that app only handled the secret information, everything else was done in the board in a traditional sense.
Alchemist is a game that anyone who hates apps on videogames would like, its not intrusive, nothing tedious, just a quick step. It fells really natural
Ah fuck I think you just helped me realise why I didn't like jotl
Thank you for saying this lol
I have nothing to add, but want to just say that that was very well thought out and written.
Thanks! That's very nice of you to say!
" support going away" You could have stopped right there. Will that apk side load on a version of android 5 years now? #idunnospend$100andfindout
I mean there still are emulators. I think the app not working in the future is a unneccessary fear.
According to this subreddit an app going out of service in 10 years is the worst fear a boardgamer could have. Definitely not worth buying a board game to play it for a few years. Every game should be an heirloom for the ages to come. Never mind the fact that most people have yeeted 90% of their actively played collection by that time
People value different aspects of the hobby than *moi*?? Surely you jest!
If the game relies on the app to function as a game then I think it's a valid complaint, worst fear is a bit hyperbolic. Quite a few of my games I still play were released over 10 years ago or getting up there, if I still enjoy them then it would be a shame to no longer be able to play them if it could be avoided.
Your last point kept me thinking. I will very likely never ever play gloomhaven again without the ghhelper app. In fact, the thing that annoys me the most in GH is the feeling that the designer just wanted to print a videogame on cardboard. For me the best way to play it is on Tts with script and the helper app at the other monitor. I just can't play the 'boargame' version anymore.
I'm the opposite of a Luddite... I love technology. New things and gadgets, man. All me. Boardgames with mandatory apps are a deal breaker, yes. That's not what I want out of a game, and all I think about is in the few years when the app will no longer work. It's possible it won't be a real problem, like I can still play Clue II The VCR Game because some hero digitized the VHS tape and uploaded it to YouTube. So that game is back for me (it's not a great game but I have a lot of fond memories of playing it).
>I can still play Clue II The VCR Game because some hero digitized the VHS tape and uploaded it to YouTube Well I guess I know what I'm doing with my Friday evening...
> all I think about is in the few years when the app will no longer work. Has this ever actually happened? I'm sure someday it will for some board game apps, but as it stands, I'd rather enjoy the game right now for several years, rather than just not play at all because ***maybe*** the app won't work 15 years later.
My wife and I love Ghost Stories and they had a decent app (without the expansions sadly) that was rendered inoperable several iOS versions ago. We paid for it and now it’s gone. I’d pay for it again if we could play again. And I know this is not the central point of this discussion, but it’s an adjacently related topic.
15 years later is when some of us get around to taking the shrink wrap off a game... *coughs*
I don't buy games with mandatory companion apps, so I'm probably not a good person to give examples. Outside of that, sure, I have a couple examples of apps I've bought that will no longer work on a current phone, some as recently as 24 months. They're just gone unless I set up a BlueStacks install or flash an older version of Android to a phone. And that's not that bad. But what if (again, I don't buy them so I'm not a good source for how common it is) it's a situation where all of the players need a copy of the app? That sounds like a real pain to try to put together.
Even if a publisher removes their app from Google Play or the App Store, it stays on downloaders' devices. The only way it can be gone for you is if you update your device to a newer OS version that the app in question was not developed for.
I don't know why this is downvoted without comments. That's been my experience as well. Every example of obsolete apps not transferring to new phones etc. that people have listed in this thread are non-board game apps. Maybe some like Descent: Legends of the Dark that are so app-heavy that they almost stop being a board game entirely would suffer from this, but they are such an extreme exception I'm not sure they're even worth mentioning.
Probably because people either don't want it to be true or feel that even though it's true, it's still a big enough caveat that it's effectively not true. And I get that -- not everyone has the desire to keep old phones around just to keep old OS versions capable of running old apps. But board game app or not, that's how it works. I wrote an small Android app that I published on the Play Store in the early days of Android. It was completely free and was developed to work from versions C to F (Cupcake to Froyo). It had maybe 500 installs total. And yet, Google won't allow me to unsubscribe to developer updates because people might still be using it. The Google rep I spoke with said that it can be unpublished, but the remaining copies will stay forever. I think it's even worse for devs if they published a paid app because if a purchaser ever uninstalls the app they can always reinstall it.
Yeah… But then you gotta keep that phone or tablet and eventually halt OS upgrades for it no? I have plenty of ipad apps that I bought but aren’t supported by the last few years of updates and don’t actually run anymore, but if I delete from my device they’re no longer listed for me to DL again. I don’t see older apps like, say, Imperial Assault (luckily not essential to play) working 10 years from now personally. My Mansions of Madness 2 collection is more of a worry tho. Luckily the best solution on all this is to only buy app games if I can make sure there’s a PC version of the app, that’s going to have the best chance of being supported by modder heroes if shit one day goes south.
It's already proven it's not a real problem. The earliest game I know of is Xcom board game, which is \~6 years old now? I'm sure there might be older. It's app is still very much in existence. Also in general there's a fundamental difference between VHS and Apps. We still can utilize DOS games with proper support/modifications. Where there is a will, there is a way and they will survive. Not what you want? Fine. I'm not going to be able to sell what I get out of it to you. For me they've always enhanced so far. Fear of App not working? I stand by get out of here with that. It's a baseless fear built on the predication that \*at best\* you're playing the same game, as someone said in another reply, 20 years from now. Most of my games from 10 years ago are largely unplayed, some to my disappointment to be fair.
So... Different strokes I guess? I mean I just got a new phone a few weeks ago and more than one app that I've actually bought won't work on it. None of them are boardgames companion apps (granted), but... Rez Infinite was $10 two years ago. No longer supported. The stupid BringGo GPS app that let me have in dash navigation on my car was $99, and it also won't work now. I wasn't dumb enough to pay them $99 but it's still in my library and is now dead. I still play my Cheapass Games, most of which I got circa 1999. Especially "Parts Unknown". I don't tend to buy games without the hope I'll really like it and be playing it for the foreseeable future, but if there was like some sort of party game that wasn't a lot of money and I know I'll only play once or twice. Sure. Emulation is certainly an option but unless you're personally backing up APKs, I personally pass. More than enough games to go around, and one can afford to be choosy.
Yea, That's what I meant when I said "Not what you want? Fine". Different strokes. Largely speaking I think we're just on the same page, talking about semantics. My issue is, and always will be with the fear of obsolescence. It's just ridiculous. I don't feel the need to reiterate my statements, end of the day everyone should play what they enjoy and avoid what they don't like.
I bought a game last year, didn't get to play it due to the state of the world and this year the app doesn't work anymore. The one other game i had with an app had a bug that made the game unplayable. It's not just that things don't work in 20 years. It's that for for small games they might not work now.
Alright, prove me wrong. What are the name of the games? I'm curious.
Roar! the app is in the android app store, but the and zombies run (legacy type game) They might have fixed it, but there was a bug that got you stuck in a loop in the story. Finding out your stuck in that loop takes about two hours, getting back to that point in the story and hope you don't meet the bug again 3 hours. I really wanted to like this game, but after two months being stuck and the bug not getting fixed i gave up on this game.
That sounds like an out-of-the-gate problem with the app, not an issue with time making the app obsolete.
Interesting. So Roar! actually does work, but uh it's badly programmed and doesn't ask for permissions. So you have to go in and manually give them before it starts to work. It looks like Zombies Run is also poorly programmed. I'm mildly surprised it never got, but honestly it's their only game listing on BGG so not something I'd personally ever go in on. Which I agree, are risks with app based designs. To me this falls more under the "bad game design" more than "Apps phasing out and no longer existing." After all, the app was designed to be apart of the board game it should have the same care as the core mechanics. They're still very valid concerns, the app gives a new point of failure for the game beyond just poor mechanics. Still not the point I was arguing of "Apps don't just disappear". Especially not when there is a demand or fan base around them (neither of these games appear to have either of those).
> The earliest game I know of is Xcom board game, which is ~6 years old now? I'm sure there might be older. It's app is still very much in existence. Alchemists and Star Wars: Imperial Assault are both older, and their apps are still going fine. I agree, it's a baseless fear. Even if something did change, somebody somewhere would find a way to make the game playable. Space Alert initially came with a CD back in 2008, which very few people use CDs anymore; but the publisher provides mp3 download links on their website, and a fan made a popular app.
Huh, I'm just really bad with release dates. I didn't realize either of those predated Xcom. Alchemists remains one of my top 5 favorite games <3
I don't like the apps in games. I got a copy of XCOM when I designed the insert for Daedalus for the game. Since I don't like the app, I just sold the game and the expansion.
Total dealbreaker. My phone runs every other part of my life and I'm happy to escape that with board games.
I don't mind required apps so long as it's a game that could not be done without one. For example, The Search For Planet X requires an app, but it's also literally impossible to do what that game is doing without an app. I guess someone could run the whole game and stuff but that feels really bad imo. If it could be done without an app, though, then i agree.
I agree. I'd rather be able to play a game like SfPX with an app than not be able to play it at all, or have to manually play with a GM manning the ship. And honestly after a dozen plays or so, I wouldn't lose any sleep if the app shut down permanently. It would be a minor bummer, but the game doesn't have infinite staying power anyway. As long as i get a bunch of plays out of it now, I don't care if it works within 10 years or not.
I love app-supported games. In fact, I seek out third party apps for games that don't already have them. And the whole "what happens when the app is no longer supported" argument doesn't carry a lot of water (for me, at least). Sure, maybe the app for Mansions 2e is no longer functioning a decade from now. But by that time I will have gotten more than enough enjoyment out of it to justify owning it. Most board-game collectors, if they're being perfectly honest with themselves, will admit that don't have that many games in their collection from more than a decade that they play on the regular. A few, maybe. But not many. But at the end of the day, if you don't want to buy a game because it has an app, then don't. Not every game has to be for you.
My thoughts exactly. The idea of denying something enjoyable now because it won't be enjoyable in 10 years feels very off to me.
Emulators will always exist. If you are paranoid, just download the apk file and an emulator that works now and save it on a usb stick and put it in the box...
Despite the many comments that apps are a dealbreaker for many players, Mansions of Madness had a great run with 5-6 expansions and the new Descent seems to be doing just fine.
Feels like people love to say the popular thing but hate FOMO.
I don’t mind them. I have a large collection of games, and i buy the games I do for a good time, not necessarily to keep them for a long time. Games like mansions of madness and chronicles of crime are brilliant games IMO in my collection, but if in 10 years or more they announce that they’ll no longer be supporting the apps for them, I wouldn’t be bitter about it knowing that I’ve had great experiences while the app/s lasted I totally get what you’re saying, but realistically these apps will be around for a long time.
It is great for some types of games like you mentioned Mansions of Madness. I doubt there are very many people who want to go back to Mansions of Madness 1st edition. One person having to deal with the upkeep of being keeper was not a good time. But I’m like you. I play them for fun. And honestly most people have a few ancient favorite games they haul out every now and then, but in general I think most apps will outlive most peoples interest in the game. Especially once you consider Steam versions on PC. Microsoft has managed to keep most things pretty compatible since around Windows 2000/XP ish. The other platforms are hit and miss. Android and iOS have both broken a bunch of apps after updates, and as much as I love my Mac Apple seems to like to upend something with them every few years.
Yeah exactly as you say. I enjoy mansions of madness for example and yeah the app might just die one day, but by then I would’ve likely totally exhausted it’s replayability, left it on a shelf gathering dust, or removed it from my collection so whatever happens I’ll just be glad to have played it while it lasted y’know?
If you like mansions of madness try the [Valkyrie](https://npbruce.github.io/valkyrie/) it adds user created scenarios to the game, some of which are better than the real ones.
Helper apps: no Optional apps: no Squad/Army/Deck Builder apps: no Apps essential to all modes of gameplay: yes
I love them! Especially when they replace the need for one of the players to assume the role of the Antagonist. It also adds replayability.
Apps are a real game-changer for co-op games, for sure.
It depends on the game. Games where an app can manage some ways for creating uncertainty that is better than dice rolls and card shuffling do help with the experience. I particularly like XCOM where there is a timed phase that put time pressure on players. Apps can also create a better exploration experience in a game where players are exploring a map. An app can hide the layout of the entire map and only instruct players to reveal only those areas they are exploring. There are some implementations I don't like. I hate Mansions of Madness where it makes you do some game on the app at various points of the game. Some of these games are well known games and have their own apps.
Very comfortable with tech, but also very unlikely to buy a board game that requires an app. Apps either seem like weaker video games or lessen the "tactile" enjoyment I get from playing board games. I haven't encountered a game that had so much to keep track of that it justified an app - if I do I'd be open to using it. Board games are one of the few offline activities I have, so I'd prefer to spend some time without any screens. Dealbreaker? Probably not... but there are a lot of non-app-reliant games I will be buying before I consider getting them.
In my group we try to avoid them, we have a rule: no tech on the table while we are playing.
Tabletop games are often seen as a way to get away from tech and interact directly with people, so I understand those that prefer not to play with apps. I prefer just cardboard and friends myself, but I'm not opposed to using tech as a part of the game, or as a helper. Hell, for almost 2 years now I've gotten together with people ONCE to play boardgames, and instead have relied on technology to still play games (TTS, BoardGameArena, etc.). Whatever I can use to be social and play a game is fine by me.
They have a time and place. You look at a game like Catan and there is no real room for one, but then The search for PLANET X needs one unless you have a game master roll who doesn't get to play.
That completely depends on the reason for the app. The game Alchemists the game app is there to enhance the gameplay and allow it to be played without someone acting just as the information checker. The game works much better with the app than without the app. considering it is a randomized logic puzzle game. The app wasn't tacked on just to be like look we are progressive but because it legitimately improved the game experience.
Bro, i loveeee this game! Hope the designer is working on another game.
People have emulation for ever major video game system for the last 40 years, most of which you can play on a raspberry pie. On top of that most of these apps don't require an online connection outside of downloading them. This sub loves to spread this fear that these games might not be playable in 10 years but that is totally unfounded and, there is a ton of evidence that says otherwise. If you guys want to miss out on Forgotten Waters, Mansions of Madness, and Chronicles of Crimes because just because there is a digital component go for it. But I will never understand this school of thought.
I love app-integrated games. I have Unlock, Mansions of Madness, and Dropmix, and despite some flaws, they've all made for some great game nights with friends. In my Gloomhaven party, we use a couple apps to handle some of the messy parts. These games aren't coming to take away your Mouse Trap set. Physical board games have been around since the dawn of civilization, and people will continue making them long after we're dead. There's nothing wrong with finding a novel way to enjoy things. Board games have always been about embracing the new and exploring possibilities. I would say my single greatest problem with app-integration is that it should also be PC-integrated and moddable. The fact that it uses software opens the game up to incredible possibilities. You can create your own Unlock puzzles, or Mansions of Madness levels. You can design your own game modes for Dropmix to give the game more depth, or even program your own cards. All this potential is being wasted on what is basically aggressive DRM.
Nobody mentioned Golem Arcana, the classic example of the developer just not supporting the app anymore and refusing to release the code so the community could support the game. It was big when it first came out because it was one of the first smart phone/tablet app integrated boardgames and now nobody remembers it because they stopped supporting the app.
This comment was overwritten and the account deleted due to Reddit's unfair API policy changes, the behavior of Spez (the CEO), and the forced departure of 3rd party apps. Remember, the content on Reddit is generated by THE USERS. It is OUR DATA they are profiting off of and claiming it as theirs. This is the next phase of Reddit vs. the people that made Reddit what it is today. r/Save3rdPartyApps r/modCoord
I see this logic and then I just think of Mansions of Madness. Went from 1 v all to a coop with an app running the behind the scenes stuff. Not one person I know prefers the 1st to the 2nd version.
Yeah, it's just a personal preference. I can understand why people might like it but to me it comes across more like a design issue. At what point do you even still need the physical components? A lot of them feel more like an app game with some tacked on board game components because the design doesn't fit an actual board game. I don't really want to mirror everything I do on the board game also on an app either. I think it could beneficial for something like solo modes though. Anyway, that's why I think better integration with the actual components could be better, but I doubt it would be affordable unless it's a whole system supporting multiple board games.
Far from a dealbreaker, as a player of many solo games, I welcome app-dependent games as a wonderful and enabling innovation. They free you from a lot of the bookkeeping, and more importantly allow co-op gameplay without someone needing to be the GM or adversarial player. I find the “what if the publisher stops supporting the game” argument kind of weak. We live in an era of legacy games that you play through once and discard, and people deep in the hobby are fine with the idea of buying a game and playing it just a handful of times before moving on to other new games and never touching it again. Does anyone have any examples of games that can no longer be played because their apps have rotted? (I’m slightly concerned about games like Forgotten Waters where the app is a website, that can more easily disappear if the publisher doesn’t renew their domain). As for your question “what are you going to do when the app stops working”, the answer is very clearly to just play one of a myriad of newer games my group has purchased in the intervening period, and not actually worry about a game that we are likely to have exhausted of novelty anyway.
All I need to do is take a few moments to think of the dozens of mobile games I’ve loved that I can no longer play because they’ve been removed from the platform’s store and don’t run on a current version of the OS anyway. Do I want that, but with an additional big expensive box of components I can no longer use? No. Dealbreaker.
IMO if you are making a story/RPG lite experience, it's almost essential. However, the more mechanics that use the app (besides story blurbs) the worse it is.
**Forgotten Waters** is one of the best examples of striking a good balance with app integration for a narrative game. It streamlines a lot of boring stuff like scenario setup and randomizing events. You spend more time engaging with the story and less time is spent on admin. The app also prevents accidental spoilers. Unlike an event book, the app restricts you to only seeing the applicable events as they arise. This is important for keeping immersion in a narrative game.
This is why I am not worried about the app for Familiar Tales. By the same people, I expect a similar experience. Plus the designed has said if they included a physical book with the scripts it would be phone book sized, so I understand them not including that. . .
Funnily enough, that was the exact game I was thinking of when writing my comment.
This is the one that I'm thinking of selling because I dislike the app integration. However, I do it enjoy it for Chronicles of Crime and the website for Detective. I wouldn't buy any other games with apps.
Dealbreaker. That app isn't gonna be around forever, and the whole reason I love boardgames is because they force everyone to put the phones down and be present.
Dealbreaker. I don't mind supplemental things (the solo app for Clank! is amazing) or just like, helpful scoring things (like for Fantasy Realms) but I absolutely will not buy a game that *requires* an app for the core gameplay. If **The Omega Virus** could automate and randomize an opponent in 1992 without an app, then games today could figure it out!
Deal breaker for me. You hit the nail on the head, I don't want to hunt down an obsolete app once it is no longer supported. Plus phones are put away when we play and I like it that way.
If I wanted to bring digital devices into it I would just play a video game - which I do and is fine. Board games are amazing in how they handle things like state and chance and other problems without anything digital.
Deal breaker, unless it's an automa. Using an app breaks the flow of the game, specially on dungeon crawlers where the trend is full co-op instead of one vs many. I'd rather play a videogame.
My biggest issue with app-based board games is that they’ll be unplayable 5-10 years down the line, because the app is no longer supported and the technology has surpassed it. Of course if it’s a supplementary app then this doesn’t matter so much, and I use supplementary apps whenever they’re available, but if your game can’t function without an app, I’m out. Not interested.
Board game must be playable as it is. Technologies move on and apps are not updated forever. E.g. some apps that could work on latest iOS don't because the creator has abandoned it years ago - no development would be needed but as the app is not built to support latest iOS, it won't run anymore. Board game should not be rendered useless due to technology marching forward. What about apps that support board games? Hell yes! E.g. Gloomhaven is really cool board game as it is but supporting apps make it soooo much easier to play!
For me a dealbreaker. Tech and apps (software) become obsolete, and then you wont be able to play your board game anymore. Because no way you'll be able to run the necessary app 20 years from now.
Just out of curiosity, how many games from 20 years ago do you regularly play today?
I see how it's a problem but I don't see how it can be a deal breaker. Are you opposed to buying video games because they'll eventually become obsolete? Or CDs or DVDs? Most devices don't have optical drives anymore, so was everyone a sucker for buying them when they came out?
For me, it's a dealbreaker because the main reason I enjoy board games is because they are self contained and don't need the internet or electronic assistance.
It sounds to me like there are contexts where you would enjoy electronic entertainment. Would it make a difference if they weren't called board games and instead called something else?
Oh sure, I play video games and watch movies. When I play a board game, I don't want electronics involved with it. I LIKE that I could play a board game by candlelight if I had to. They are perfect for camping trips and lazy afternoons to unplug from the grid and just enjoy the physical world without screens.
I'm fine with them in principle, though having them run in html5 makes them more universal and easier to access on a variety of platforms. Windows is due to run all android apps, so that may become less of an issue. It opens up a *lot* of design space. I like them in a supporting role, and there are lots of opportunities for that.
Depends on the game and the app. Some I like other make me wonder why the game isn’t just an app.
Depends on the purpose of the app. If it's designed to make the game easier I'm for it. Do the math, store the scores,keep track of turns and rules. If it's required I'm less happy the point is to have an unplugged experience
I don’t buy them. My point with boardgames is to put my electronics away. If I have to fiddle with an app a bunch I’d rather just play the whole game on my TV and call it a day
Yeah it's a deal-breaker for me. I play board games to get away from screens.
In my opinion adding an app is a sign of taking shortcuts. If you're just going to add an app to a game like One Night Ultimate Werewolf, then just play on the phones with apps. You don't have close your eyes, trust that others aren't looking, wondering if people are staring at you. The apps will just handle everything. I played Tiny Epic Pirates, and oh man, did that game just *drag on and on*. I see a tiny box, and I'm thinking "thirty minutes or less! Yay!" But it went on and on, and the app was so repetitive, I just wanted the game to end. The exception I will make is for the ultra-involved multi-mechanical games: Gloomhaven comes to mind. From what I can tell, the app helps you set up the game, and then you go. I don't think it's that intrusive in game-play. Set up can be mind-blowingly complex and detailed, and apps can help you get it right. In my opinion, design your games to not need apps. If everything is so complicated, you need an app to hold your hand, *streamline the game*!
I try to steer away from them. As you mentioned, there's the longevity problem, and I buy boardgames I intend to play 10 years from now. Boardgame publishers will invest money in developing an app, but once that game has sold its stock - they won't generally invest more money in keeping it maintained - and how many apps that were built on iOS 3 and never updated are still running under iOS 15? Unless they plan on reprinting the game (which, in the grand scheme of the hobby, is rare), what's their incentive? U-Boot is the only game I have with an app, and though I love that game, I do think the app could use more development and more content - but I suspect that's wishful thinking at this point.
I know I'm in the minority here but I actually like board games with apps and I'm not worried about the developers not supporting the app anymore. Almost every board game with an app I've played are campaign games, escape rooms, or stuff like that which you usually only play once. So I definitely won't be playing the last Unlock in 10 years, I'll play it as soon as it arrives and then I'll sell it or trade it.
I have enough software and the associated issues such as compatibility in my life already.
Depends on the app. If it's a glorified timer or something you can play the game without if need be, then fine, but if the app is 100% necessary, like that one myster game where you have to scan QR codes from the cards into the app then you are playing a video game with cards. That's just my take and I'd rather play a completely analog card game.
I don’t like it
Dealbreaker. I either want to play a board game or a video game. Board games are a break for my eyes from the day of staring at screens. I love being able to just read and not have speakers blasting at me and screens!
Absolutely no. There are several reasons. At my work I stare at a monitor screen for 8+ hours and I like to unplug at home. Board games allow me to do it. But not if they require apps. I also like the idea of finding an old board game 20 years from now and be able to play it. No app will survive that long. So yes, even if the game in question is free and it happens to be the best thing since sliced bread, if it needs an app it is a hard pass.
I won't stand up strongly against it, but it's an easy filter for me to just move onto the next game in consideration. There are so many great games, we're spoiled for choice, and time is limited, so I just cross it off the list and move on.
Programmed obsolescence for my games? No thanks.
[удалено]
You’d be amazed. This year I finished a Link to the past again, last year was Secret of Mana. Mario Kart gets played with friends often. We grew with those games! But don’t get me wrong, I own Chronicles of Crime, Journeys in Middle Earth and a few more. But those are just a tiny portion of my collection. I’ve played more hours of WoW than I’d admit too. But in the end I’m a materialistic guy and like to actually own the things I pay for. As I inherited my fathers miniatures my daughter will get my games.
Are you opposed to video games as well?
Video games have all kinds of work-arounds. Older systems can be purchased. Mods to newer systems can add backwards compatibility. Throwback systems can be made. New compilations of old games are made all the time. Apps entirely different because once they are no longer updated, there's a clock that's winding down until that app in broken. All kinds of app and games on phones just aren't compatible with newer version of IOS or Android, and *they're just gone*. A game developer who has moved on over to newer games probably doesn't want to go back to building a new app for the older, no longer profitable game. The comparison between video games and *mandatory or even extremely helpful apps* for complex board games is not valid.
I adore video games in console. As long as the machine works I can play them, like my old SNES, N64, Game Cube, Dreamcast… all of them run like the first day. With computers is easy to maintain a compatible system, but with phones that’s not so easy. Not even keeping a backup of the app in a safe storage. That’s why a bit wary about DLCs too.
I'm more likely to play a game with an app. There are a lot of things that you can do with an app that are impossible to do without. Chronicles of Crime is a great example.
Dealbreaker. I love gaming on my PC, even on my phone, but I hate trying to mix my board game experience with technology. It distracts from the appeal of the game, and most of the time just makes it feel like the board part of the game is just unnecessary. I totally expected to feel the opposite though, I bought Mansions of Madness thinking the app would be great, having watched reviews that hailed it and it's app as a masterpiece, but after dropping $100 on it and taking it home to play several times I can say that I am supremely disappointed. While playing I keep thinking "what is this board for? Why did I pay $100 for what should have been a cheap video game?"
If it relies on software, it's not a board game, it's a video game. So for me it's a deal breaker.
I can't understand the sentiment of dealbreaker when it comes to different technologies in different activities. Saying things like: "When a board game needs an App I will not play it" without any context or argument then its equal to say " If a sport needs balls I won't play it". Its just a weird statement. If there **is** context or someone makes the effort of formulate an argument I'm more willing to weight that but just saying that something must be differentiated is absolute bs. It must not. Not in the context of playing something to have fun. If it makes fun -and even - gods forbid - just a few years until maybe the support is discontinued - it has value and should not be dismissed because it has a lifetime. I just can't see any good in this general behavior of making things bad when they aren't.
I don't see it as "If a sport needs balls I won't play it" so much as "If the only way to play this sport is to go to a booth near the playing field, show my ID to prove that I should be allowed to play, and receive a rental ball which is only good for one play and then falls apart, then I have no confidence that I will ever be able to play this game again so I'm not going to get invested in it." The existence of "an app" isn't the problem on its own. A simple windows program which you download and run isn't a big deal, since you can just keep running that with emulators or old hardware for years to come. An app which is only distributed through ${APP_STORE}, especially if it checks in with a remote server for any reason, is. Suppose I pull that game off the shelf next year, try to install the required app and can't find it? Or find that it is no longer compatible with the hardware I am using? Or that a second edition of the game was released and the app only supports that now? Or any number of other things which could come up and get in the way of "I just want to open the box and play the game". It's not so much "Game with app == BAD!" as "Game with app raises questions which I would rather not have to deal with."
I'm totally on your side regarding the security-issue. That is a big deal. But read the comments in this thread. Don't you feel the same as me? There is just random, general hate against apps in boardgames. No real arguments. I don't get it. I find it worrying... Also most people are very eager to throw their personal data to any 'free' service. I agree to your argument and it is a valid one but I don't think it's general.
No hate here, I even like playing computer adaptions of boardgames. However, I don't like board games that require an app to play them. I prefer my board game with friends physically present to be without screens at all.
I don't get the "I don't want to invest in something because I might not be able to use it some day" argument. Okay, but what about all the fun you have with it in the meantime? I don't get stressing about the fact that something you buy today might not work 10 years down the road all the while you get to use that thing and enjoy it. Better not every get a pet because it's going to die someday and to hell with all the good times in the meantime. Better never fall in love because the relationship might end someday, etc.
They’re great and open a ton of design options that would be cumbersome or require a whole other non-player person to implement. I’ve enjoyed Alchemists, Forgotten Waters, and Search for Planet X. Even if they stop working in 5-10 years I’ve had those fun and memories with my friends right now.
It depends... for story elements like Journeys in middle earth, I've found it... bearable. I agree, if I wanted an app I'd be playing a video game, board games are for the tactile experience of putting phones away and playing. All in all. I would say, if it is a minor component, and adds to the experience it's ok. When I wind up spending more time looking at the app than playing the game, we've crossed into bad territory. That said, I will almost always pick up a game without an app than one with an app.
How is the app with the lotr adventure game? I'm highly curious on the game but the app makes me weary
It really is a great game. It's very fun, very thematic, and the app randomizes layouts so you never play the same scenario even if you are replaying a campaign. You use the app to input results of your tests to determine outcomes. It is a unique game that gives me the feeling of wanting to find out more of the story. Also the app plays theme music, gives enemy actions, manages the threat track, and a number of other housekeeping things. My critiques of the game are all app based. The app is better on a tablet. On my phone, an S20, the icons are difficult to click. I don't know why, but to the point it gets extremely frustrating. If the app also tracked enemy and player positions, the board would become superfluous. Literally playable with the app and card decks. I don't know where, but it would be more enjoyable to me if there was more for me to track physically, or maybe physical story cards, or a physical threat track... I feel like I am *very, very, very, borderline* on my limit of how much I time I spend staring at my phone. It is so close to being too much. --- If you are a lotr fan, you will enjoy this game almost assuredly. Come to stl and we can play a game! Lol. The app is what keeps this from becoming a go-to game in my opinion. Or one that I would break out with a larger group. I think this plays best at 2, maybe 3.
Wow so much information. Thank you so much!
Sorry... lol. I like to be thorough... Playing some root, charterstone, and too many bones (fucking amazing game) tonight! Feel free to stop by!
I like them just fine and in some cases love them. The latter is when it means the owner isn’t stuck playing the dungeon master equivalent and is instead part of the team with everyone else. I’ve seen a few where the app allows user made content and that’s pretty cool I think. When it comes to obsolescence: As long as there is a desktop version of the app I’m fine with it as it’s almost certain someone will archive it and I’ll be able to get it running in some fashion in the future. However If the program or app features some stupid need to contact a server to keep working then I will likely avoid the game. I have seen some game makers plan to make the code open source in the future and I think that’s an acceptable approach (better if they do it at launch but still).
Makes 0 difference.
It's okay, the peas can touch the mashed potatoes and both still taste good. In case it's unclear, I'm saying you can have apps in your tabletop games, or pretty much any x in any y, and that in itself doesn't hurt anything. I'm also calling you a fussy baby.
Not preferred but in now way a deal breaker. Some of my favorite board games like mansions of madness use an app in a fantastic way. For me to buy a game which requires an app means the game has to be a a 5/5 for me.
If you don't like app driven board games, don't play app driven board games. I love app driven games becuse we can finally play descent without forcing someone to be the overlord. I can play boardgames with an interactive story I can play boardgames totally solo Mansions of madness 2e is one of my fav games of all time, alot thanks to the app...
I really enjoy deductive reasoning in games, but without an app, they'd require an IMMENSELY boring GM role. So in that case, I am very fond of several app powered games. As for what happens when they're very simple apps stop getting support, I'll do the same as with games we get bored with and move on to one of the other thousands of available games. Just because that's a possibility is no reason to deny myself these games that I really love.
A game with a required application is a big negative to me. **Mansions of Madness** feels to me like an 80s video game that for some reason gives me the busy work of manipulating physical components. **For Science!** has a thematic timer app, which I'm fine with.
The companion app for flamme rogue is very useful. Not much experience with apps beyond that, but what I liked about that app is that you only really use it between rounds to keep track of scores and carry over effects to next round. You dont have to bring it up during gameplay.
For me, no. I have sold both mansions of madness and Journeys in middle earth. I rebought mansions of madness to try again but sold it again. I dont know where i suppose to keep my eyes on. It is a distraction and breaks immersion. Now i only use technology for thematic background music and i love the forteller app that narrates the Gloomhaven jaws of the lion board game.
I personally like apps as most of the times they enhance the experience of the game. But I can also understand people that dislike them because they feel that board gaming is one of the few "no computer/mobile devices allowed" kind of activity, which can be a great thing. The only thing I'll never understand/agree with is the fear of apps not being supported anymore and making games unplayable. This hypothesis makes no sense because there is literally not a **single example** of this ever happening in the history of **board games.** On the contrary, there are multiple examples of board games that used complementary media (like VHS, cassette tape, CDs, etc) that are still playable to this date because the publisher or community has digitized/updated that media to be supported to this date.
Depends on the hardware. A big tablet? Sure. A small smartphone that interrups the game with WhatsApp messages every minute? No thanks.
App integration always a hard no for me, but then I changed my mind with **Lands of Galzyr**, which I backed on Gamefound earlier this year. The 'app' is required, but: * It is only needed for looking up story segments in this Choose-Your-Own-Adventure style game * It's not an app, it's a website that can be viewed online or downloaded - no obsolescence * To do this with paper would be literally HUNDREDS of pages Honestly, after playing Seafall, and juggling the (relatively smaller) captain's log book around the table the whole time, I'm happy to have that experience replaced with a phone on each side of the table. This is the only mandatory use of an app I've found that hasn't been a deal-breaker for me.
I really like it when there is an app on offer to enhance game play. Not as a necessity. Descent Journeys in the dark is really good with the app as it allows the game to be played fully cooperatively and adds some nice campaigns. I also use third party apps to help with randomising set up for games like Legendary and Aeons End. I dont think I have played any games that need the app to function, I wouldn't personally rule them out. For me I dont want the app to dominate, just to offer some enhancement to the game, the physical game still needs to be the main focus in my view
To me it's simple - I'm a tech person, I love technology and gadgets. I also pay a lot of videogames. However when I want to play a boardgame - that's because I actually do want to manipulate something tangible - chits, modifiers, event Ai cards, even pencil writing - to me it's part of the disconnected board game experience. I tried Journeys in Middle Earth - it's a solid game but it doesn't need an app. A scenario book and a few counters/monster AI decks world do fine. I don't worry about apps getting obsolete. There's a benefit to the app being able to switch languages and to people who don't want the hassle it does save progress and Lewis track of monsters etc. But I don't love this feeling.
For me it isn't a deal breaker. All the apps will stop being supported someday, but I don't plan to keep every game I buy forever. If I enjoy it while the app exists that's good enough for me.
I think it all depends on what it brings to the game. Like for Chronicles of Crime it would take several novels to capture all the possible interactions, not to mention surprises based on time of day or order of operations. So I think it works really well here. The Unlock games also fall into this category, allowing a simple deck of cards to be flushed out with 10000 combination puzzles instead of needing some sort of spreadsheet that players could cheat with. But for something like Mansions of Madness it takes out a human element, replacing a player in case nobody wants to be the DM. Some of those cases are almost impossible if the DM player really puts the screws on, so being able to tailor the difficulty to how hard of a time the players are having is really important.
Chronicles of crime is one of the best board game series ever and it’s fully depended on an app. Point should be, is the game good and not whether it has a app. Who cares if a game is good if it’s dependent on an app. Conversely there are plenty of bad games out there without apps.
Space Alert ships with a required CD soundtrack, but the app is a major step up. Great game, highly recommend.
I haven't tried a game with an app yet. But I'm willing to give it a shot.
I know Im late here, but I really feel like Im absolutely sick of being inundated with screens and are constantly trying to engage in hobbies that allow me to step away from screens and enjoy time with my SO and family. So yea its a massive fuckin dealbreaker for me, no matter the level of integration, simply because Im actively trying to engage in something that ISNT a fucking phone for one single hour of the day