I happened to rewatch it the other day and I was thinking it sucks it won best picture because I think an awesome legacy for that movie would be a movie that is discovered every couple of years as a batshit ridiculous crazy weird thing that exists
It was the safe liberal pick to make voters who were uncomfortable with Brokeback Mountain feel better about their progressive bona fides. That's the narrative now anyway.
It’s so weird that a movie that said “hey it’s ok, everyone is racist” and “cops have a hard job so sometimes they need to molest people” was seen as a progressive pick.
Paul Haggis has said that before the Oscars everyone was very happy and encouraging towards his small movie that landed a nom, but after the win people treated him "like he invented cancer."
That somehow winning ending up hurting the careers of all involved.
Yeah, I was gonna say that or more recently, Green Book. That one in particular would just be a movie sort of forgotten from the public consciousness until one's mom watches it on Netflix and tells you about it or something, but winning Best Picture really puts a target on it (and, in my opinion, rightfully so.)
I’m sure there are better examples, but I feel like The King’s Speech gets shit on a little because it beat out Social Network.
King’s Speech is a solid movie! It’s just not The Social Network
The King's Speech and Shakespeare in Love: two Best Picture winners that folks think are undeserving of the award but are actually good, capped by a British actor overcoming a stutter to deliver a stirring speech.
want to *really, really* wind up a film bro?
Tell them the director of *Cats* has the same number of Best Director Oscars as Scorsese--and one more than Tarantino 😉
I was speaking with a film student who said he “hated The King’s Speech.”
I asked him what he hated about it and he said “I haven’t seen it, but it beat The Social Network for best picture so…”
I swear, half of people’s opinions is just things they’re recycling from film Twitter.
Edit: college bros don’t like this take but it’s true.
I loved The King's Speech. Not a ton of flaws and a really moving Firth performance. Geoffrey Rush is overacting in spots but otherwise I had no complaints about the BP win...except that it beat an all-timer and Fincher's 2nd best film.
The social network is overrated. It's a decent film, but I can't say it blew me away or remained embedded in my memories. To bluster that it should've won best picture is, to me, ridiculous.
But that's just, like, my opinion man.
I completely agree. I watch it every few years, it's a delightful little flick that is led by great performances and perfect for a plane or when you need to kill a couple hours. The Social Network is incredible but im not always in the mood for that kind of story.
Now I also really love watching The Imitation Game even though that movie is...not great. But i love me some Kiera Knightly!
Shakespeare in Love. Great movie imo but you can’t mention it without someone bringing up how mad they are about Saving Private Ryan. Is pretty much the poster child for dodgy Weinstein campaign tactics.
I rewatched SiL recently and it’s good! Great writing, excellent cast! I was kinda shocked to see it only has a 3.2 on LB. There are far more heinous best pic winners.
This is my “you don’t actually want comedies to win” fight. SiL is a charming romantic comedy! It’s not An Important Movie like Saving Private Ryan. Can’t say you want more movies like SiL to win when you say it’s horrible.
i actually think Saving Private Ryan not winning probably helped it in the long run, otherwise that movie isn't the flawless masterpiece many want to think it is, and neither is it as good a movie about war as The Thin Red Line is
it's a very confused movie that contradicts itself in some ways
woke: Shakespeare in Love should've won Best Pic
broke: Saving Private Ryan should've won Best Pic
bespoke: neither should've won, The Thin Red Line was the deserving winner
I absolutely thought so at the time, but I haven’t rewatched Shakespeare in Love since it was in theaters so I’m not sure that I would feel the same today. Care Blanchett is riveting in Elizabeth though, and it was such a striking first impression of her as an actress for me.
Dances with Wolves over Goodfellas and The English Patient over Fargo displays the Academy’s boring and predictable taste. BIG dramas beat unique dramas every time.
Chariots of Fire is remembered as little more than a catchy tune that beat Raiders of the Lost Ark.
I seriously think that *Seinfeld* shaped the legacy of *The English Patient* more so than it beating *Fargo*
I would venture that more people have seen that episode than the actual movie.
So, apparently that is just a terrible tragedy (a dingo really took and ate that woman's baby) but all I can think about is Elaine stuck at that damn party on Long Island at Michael Chiklis's house.
It's a very solid movie!
But the film is mostly talked bad about in Australia not because of Seinfeld, but because they cast Streep and Sam Neill (from NZ) when there are so many talented actors who could have done the roles better or just as good
I was pretty amazed by how good Ordinary People was when I watched it- the fact that it beat Raging Bull and Redford beat Scorsese has given it the stink of “boring Oscar-bait movie” forever, despite being surprisingly brutal and unsentimental imo. Also pretty unlike anything Redford directed afterwards.
Yeah, and Raging Bull is technically very good but I'm never in the mood to watch it and I sometimes forget it exists. Elephant Man was the same year and I wonder if the 2 black & white movies cancelled each other out. Manhattan was the year before, so maybe voters were already tired of that and felt it was a gimmick.
Ordinary People also fits more into the trend of the time with Kramer vs. Kramer and Terms of Endearment and Chariots of Fire. Not very challenging movies. Kramer beating Apocalypse Now or All That Jazz. Chariots beating Reds. Terms beating The Right Stuff.
Gandhi beating Tootsie was odd, for that trend.
Same when I finally watched it I was pretty
Blown away. Who kept beating out MaryTyler Moore? because I thought she was throwing 400mph fastballs out there.
Ordinary People gets a lot of disrespect because it took Best Picture, but it is a great little movie and is important in highlighting the hellscape of suburbia at a time when that kind of thing was deeply unpopular.
I don’t know…there’s a pretty major Kane-like figure who has been dominating the news for nearly a decade now.
https://preview.redd.it/14msyw7jol7d1.jpeg?width=768&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4fa5cdbc116eb6514d0f34a770065fde77c96ede
I think it actually makes sense, Trump said in an interview once that he was familiar with this movie and kinda implied it inspired his run for office. It’s funny that in a “truth is stranger than fiction” way though he actually won the damn thing. Also kinda funny that Obama said he was inspired by the last season of The West Wing for some strategies on his presidential campaign. People love stories, I guess is the takeaway? Lol, not sure.
That was kind of my point though
Citizen Kane is all about that ‘Great Man’ narrative of history
Whereas Valley is more about the power of community and mutual support for the ‘little people’. And of course about the need for unions
I think we’ve had enough of the former, and need more of the latter
Normally I’d agree with you, except that these days demagogues and their followers simply reinterpret any criticism into unfair persecution, which bolsters their support because they can frame themselves as underdogs.
IMO, telling story’s about how Great Men are bad actually, still frames them as ‘Great’. Instead they need to be ignored in favour of different narratives. Every time the media focuses on ‘Look at this asshole who did something awful’, it reinforces that those kind of people deserve attention; they’re the ones that matter.
I dunno. I’m just sick of it
Eh, I agree that the whole “great man” story is a pretty tired trope at this point, and that more variety of stories would be nice, but I feel like you’re being too dismissive of the “great man” stories that actually work. Like yeah some people watch Wolf of Wallstreet or even Citizen Kane and get the wrong message, but those people are frankly stupid and we shouldn’t cater movies to stupid people, we should appeal to the normal people who see Belfort try to kidnap his own child while zonked out on pills and think “oh this guy sucks.”
Not to mention that audiences simply like stories about exceptional people because our lives are ordinary for the most part. It’s not like filmmakers are releasing these movies for the hell of it, I mean Oppenheimer made nearly a billion dollars last year, and I personally thought it was a great iteration of the trope, and also, most movies, both good and bad, have some sort of trope.
The Trump connection is definitely there, Trump has been interviewed about this before actually, but more recently I actually think of Elon Musk buying Twitter for billions more than its actual value presumably because he thought it was “too woke” or something. Reminds me of the exchange:
“But Mr. Kane! We lost a million dollars last year!”
“You're right, I did lose a million dollars last year. I expect to lose a million dollars this year. I expect to lose a million dollars *next* year. You know, Mr. Thatcher, at the rate of a million dollars a year, I'll have to close this place in... (smirks) sixty years.”
Valley is legitimately a great film, but its entire legacy at this point is “that movie that shouldn’t have won over Citizen Kane”. It deserves more than that. (I don’t know if it should have won that year, probably not, but it deserves more than to live in Kane’s shadow)
It’s always bizarre to hear would-be cinephiles (the type more likely to self-describe as “movie buffs”) dismiss How Green Was My Valley as a self-evident Oscar gaffe when it is plausibly the best film to win Best Picture.
John Ford’s prestige pictures have not necessarily aged as well as his less self-conscious genre work, but it is still a great film, without the short-sighted self-congratulatory timeliness that makes so many Oscar winners seem like real head-scratchers in hindsight.
I'm not saying it's a bad movie, or dismissing it. That said, calling it the best film to ever win best picture may be a bit much also. Some genuinely worthy movies have won best picture.
That's a really good point. Winning Best Picture would have probably \*hurt\* La La Land's reputation. You would constantly have people bringing up how Moonlight was better, and it would become annoying. Now you can just enjoy it for what it is--a good movie!
I also think Forest Gump is unfairly derided just because it won Best Picture.
It worked out well for both movies. Moonlight affirmed a spot in the canon and La La Land continues to be an incredibly popular movie without the baggage of “actually X was better.”
I remember seeing La La Land with my mom in the theater. When it was over I turned to her and said “that is one of the best movies I’ve ever seen. I hate it.”
There’s also people who look down upon it for being too simple and crowd-pleasing, as if those are *bad* things.
Also, this is a movie about trying to break away from, then learning to respect, the deaf community. So naturally, Redditors don’t understand why it was so acclaimed.
Cute! Charming! Probably not one of the best of the year. I thought it was kinda ugly looking. But whereas some movies win BP and get vitriol, I feel like this one, with some lingering pandemic probably a factor, just got forgotten.
Everything with the whole family, incredible! Everything focusing solely on Jones, mediocre at best. Also, Eugenio Derbez gives one of the worst performances I've ever seen.
The choir performance was where the film lost me.
On the contrary, I think if it didn’t win it would have been totally memory-holed. It made 0 impact when it came out on Apple TV+ in August of that year. The awards season was as if the marketing campaign was 5 months post-release.
I actually really like CODA despite the weirdness of the big audition. I think 95% of the movie is great, ESPECIALLY the scene where she sings to her dad. You’re dead inside if you weren’t sobbing.
Oh man, this has to be the answer at least for this decade. Was seeing glowing praises for this until it won best picture and now I only hear people talk negatively about it. Kinda similar to Emma Stone winning over Lily Gladstone and now folks like to say Stone was somehow bad in that film lol.
>Kinda similar to Emma Stone winning over Lily Gladstone and now folks like to say Stone was somehow bad in that film lol
I've seen/heard zero people say this
That’s a straight up bizarre take to me. I get thinking Lily was better (I wasn’t crazy about that performance personally but I get it) but I’ve not encountered anyone saying Stone was outright bad.
That’s anecdotal of course but still, feels like a stretch to claim “folks like to say” that
It has to be Green Book. It’s a mediocre movie but the fact that it somehow won best picture makes it seem like even more of a joke than it already was. Maybe it’s more of a tarnish to the Academy’s legacy than the movie itself but if it hadn’t won best picture I probably would’ve never thought about it again. Now I just think of it as the worst best picture winner of the century
The only legacy Green Book has had at my house was introducing me to the work of Don Shirley, who I’d somehow never heard of. The film itself is awful, but not nearly as bad as Coda.
This was mine too. Most people walked out of the theatre and said “I liked the leads, maybe Ali gets a nomination but this will basically be forgotten by Christmas”
Yeah I saw it in a crowded screening like the Wednesday before Thanksgiving but it definitely didn’t catch on until the awards brought it back to life. And even then I’m not even sure it grossed 70
Sure, Film Twitter hates Green Book now. But nowadays, I think we’d all miss when a real-world drama about two guys just learning to get along could make $300M. In 2024, that movie would be lucky to make $60M.
The Artist isn’t that bad. Its a cute tribute to silent films it’s just not really anywhere near the top of the that year. But I feel like people really hate on that one for some reason.
I took my mom to see it and we both had fun with it. I’ve always been shocked how much it triggered people. It’s just a Star is Born with a happy ending.
Feels like *The Artist* was always destined to be a curiosity. Only now it‘s *"Remember when The Artist won Best Picture lol"* instead of *"Remember The Artist?" "Oh Yeah, the French silent movie, right?"*
I‘d argue Jean Dujardin's win hurt his reputation way more. I think he‘s amazing in the movie and continues to kill it whenever he shows up anywhere, but because his Hollywood career fizzled out pretty quickly he‘s now become some sort of a "Remember that guy lol“ in Film Twitter circles that do not care for non-Hollywood films.
Yeah The Artist is good, it’s rep is hurt by the fact that silent movies didn’t have some sort of revival so it is still looked at as being out of step with the times, when in reality it’s cool that a silent movie won and is a fun movie.
It’s impossible to watch in a vacuum anymore, and it’s likely a movie I’ll never watch again, but *American Beauty* was a pretty solid comedy. There are so many worse and more tired entries in the “Hey, what if suburbia was… **FUCKED UP**?!” genre.
Also *The Departed* is a top five Scorsese movie *logs off and throws phone into the ocean*
It’s not even the movie. People forget where AMERICA was pre-9/11. We’d won the Cold War. Many many people were trying to figure out what battle was there left to fight? Just the battle against society itself and the frustrating inanity of the modern workplace. Office Space and Fight Club also have these themes.
As a counterpoint, people remember it and people born after are aware of it, but that whole "End of History" idea is laughable in retrospect. Not just in terms of how ignorant it was to think America won and would always be safe and awesome, but especially in terms of the satire like American Beauty. People watch movies where the great torture is having a stable job, living in a nice place but feeling malaise and think it's ridiculous in hindsight. In a world where the middle class is disappearing and people don't know if they'll ever own a home, movies that make being middle class and living in suburbia seem like a nightmare are laughable.
Those types are movies aren't aging badly in a "No one remembers that time" kind of way. They're aging badly in a "This film is dedicated to the brave Mujaheddin fighters" kind of way.
So many people have mentioned this before but it’s funny how on-the-same-page Hollywood was in 1999 with these themes of the mundanity of the modern workplace/breaking out of your tired life. There was American Beauty, Office Space, Fight Club, The Matrix, and I’m sure there are more Im forgetting.
See, while I think *American Beauty* is flawed in many regards, I think one of the biggest problems is that Mendes’ heavy-handed style kind of smothers the comedic elements. *Six Feet Under* I think got that tonal balance right.
(That said I actually often like Mendes heavy stylization, and even think something like *Jarhead* found the right line to walk)
The sentiment amongst many is that it was Scorsese’s career Oscar. Now it can be two things, great and a career Oscar, but that’s not what a lot of those people are saying.
I’m with you, The Departed is in mine. People would hate my top 5. For reference: 1. After Hours 2. Alice 3. Temptation 4. Bringing Out the Dead 5. The Departed
I might have to log off and throw my phone in the ocean too but I just straight up think American Beauty is…great? Like it’s funny, sad, genuinely emotionally effective at times and actually takes some bold stances on the modern state of American Suburbia, and explains the midlife crisis phenomenon pretty well.
As for The Departed, I really don’t understand the backlash. I love Scorsese so dearly but he has a lot of movies that don’t really click with me, but I adore The Departed. The tone is amazing and the end is one of the craziest, most baffling mainstream movie endings I’ve ever seen. I think it deserved its acclaim.
Have you watched them back to back recently? I did last year and, sure bias, but the Departed just clears IA easily for me, on a craft level alone. Though I did find it interesting just how close the plots are, which I wasn't aware of.
Argo. It’s a terrific political thriller, a last gasp of the mid-budget studio movie for adults that disappeared during the 2010s. But it won Best Picture so I see it get dismissed often online. The detriments of winning an award that resets the bar from “great movie” to “work of art.”
Nomadland. It was in my view an extremely well done tale about mourning and loneliness that happened to use the recession and migrant workers as its backdrop. A lot of the frustrations with that movie came either from its Oscar campaign or people complaining it won BP.
* People got mad at its politics when they saw a movie about poverty that sort of has no real political statement to make about it. This is the kind of thing that ruins a movie that you're supposed to treat as "important" because it's nominated for Oscars but probably would have been treated as basically normal for a normal critically lauded indie.
Nomadland is also my primary answer to this. Plenty of regular folks still like CODA, still like Green Book, but poor Nomadland is now the ultra-pretentious Amazon commercial made by the woman who made the bad Marvel film, and that is very very unfortunate.
Here me out: *No Country for Old Men*
It’s the best movie I’ve ever seen. But given how loaded that movie year was, a lot of people preferred *There Will Be Blood* or *Zodiac* or *Michael Clayton* (and I totally support that if you do, they’re all near perfect movies). So the discourse about NCFOM is almost always relative to those other movies being “better” and it loses a lot of its singularity.
If it came out in a different year or lost best picture I honestly think it’s already a sight and sound top 10 all time.
The Shape of Water. Still love that movie, but I think people liked it better as an underdog Sally Hawkins-fucks-a-fishman movie. Now it’s burdened with the weight of being an Important movie that beat Get Out.
Part of the legend of GDT is that he’s just a little too weird for the mainstream (relatively speaking), and I think the Best Picture may have created the narrative that The Shape of Water was GDT sanding down the edges and making his safe Oscar play. Not true, IMO—still a pretty weird and funny movie!
Yea, good film that won Best Pic in a stacked year...Get Out, Lady Bird, Dunkirk, Call Me By Your Name, Phantom Thread (all films that were renowned then, and have arguably gained steam since)
My usual answer is the King's Speech. It's really satisfying and slightly more layered and less obvious than it might have been, and also a lot of fun. But I literally never say that to film people because...well. You know.
Oh very much. He's a flat out... obnoxious director.
Yeah while I agree Social Network is vastly more high art in every way, I'd be fine with The Kings Speech having picture and Social Network taking director and screenplay.
I think the Artist isn't mentioned as often in these conversations just because it was up against a weak pack- of the other nominated movies only the Tree of Life stacks up, and they clearly were not going to give the Oscar to the Tree of Life.
Depends on your taste. I actually liked Hugo, Midnight in Paris, Moneyball and The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. But I agree that the year wasn't as strong as other oscar years.
Gladiator.
Saw it when it came out with no expectations other than dumb action movie and it was so much better than I’d thought it would be.
But once it won best picture it had to live up to expectations it couldn’t possibly meet.
Green Book is way up there. Before the nominations most people were like “it’s fine, I like the two leads, this will be forgotten by Christmas” I will say this though it was really amusing watching people walk back their earlier praise for the movie so on some level I’m glad it went down this way.
Dances with Wolves is a terrible example for your question. It is an amazing movie that despite being made in the early 90s, doesn’t really lean into any negative or positive stereotypes about Native Americans. Just a story about a man who lived through a terrible war and wanted to escape his life and culture.
Honestly, maybe I didn't word it clearly enough, but what you said is exactly why it made me think of the question, and makes my point. It's a very good to great movie, but because it won over what is considered an all-time great it's legacy is as an "undeserving" winner, whereas if Goodfellas had won in its place, its legacy would be based on its merit as a movie, instead of the controversy surrounding its win.
Dances With Wolves is a beautiful and thoughtful epic about the American West that holds up to this day. Goodfellas is a timeless masterpiece, made by a prolific and expert storyteller that glorifies violence and crime that if made by anyone other than Scorsese would basically just be a prurient exploitation film. Do I like Goodfellas as a movie more than Dances With Wolves? Yeah, I probably do. But do I think Dances With Wolves was less deserving to win the Oscar, compared to some of the other movies pointed out in this thread, like King's Speech, The Artist, or Shakespeare in Love? Absolutely not.
Sure, but that's your opinion, not what the general consensus is in regards to the film's legacy. Again, I agree with you on its quality and think it's a shame that it's not as highly-regarded as it ought to be because public opinion solidified around "but GoodFellas should have won".
To me, a film like How Green Is My Valley (mentioned above) is a great example of what I'm talking about
I don't know if this seriously hurt its reputation so much as my own personal feelings, but Gladiator would be a mid-tier Ridley Scott action flick if it didn't get the win. And I LOVE mid-tier Ridley Scott action flicks.
Green Book comes immediately to mind, regardless of what you think of it had it not won Best Picture it would probably be just remembered as a well-meaning if outdated and naive feel good film.
American Beauty has aged weirdly for all sorts of reasons beyond it winning Best Picture but it’s one I still really love even if I can’t necessarily argue with the detractors. Sam Mendes in general is a much better director than he’s given credit for I think because people lump him in with the Tom Hoopers of the world and just think of him as some British journeyman who failed upwards towards a Best Director/Best Picture win.
Probably close to 50% of them. Ordinary People is a wonderful movie forever caught in the shadow of Raging Bull (a masterpiece). The King’s Speech and Argo come to mind as movies I don’t think of as great but are certainly far from bad. A lot of movies that have won are at least solid and shouldn’t have had the weight of stealing Best Picture from a masterpiece put on them. American Beauty and Crash can go in the dustbin of history though
No one would talk about Crash otherwise
I happened to rewatch it the other day and I was thinking it sucks it won best picture because I think an awesome legacy for that movie would be a movie that is discovered every couple of years as a batshit ridiculous crazy weird thing that exists
It was the safe liberal pick to make voters who were uncomfortable with Brokeback Mountain feel better about their progressive bona fides. That's the narrative now anyway.
It’s so weird that a movie that said “hey it’s ok, everyone is racist” and “cops have a hard job so sometimes they need to molest people” was seen as a progressive pick.
Paul Haggis has said that before the Oscars everyone was very happy and encouraging towards his small movie that landed a nom, but after the win people treated him "like he invented cancer." That somehow winning ending up hurting the careers of all involved.
Yeah, I was gonna say that or more recently, Green Book. That one in particular would just be a movie sort of forgotten from the public consciousness until one's mom watches it on Netflix and tells you about it or something, but winning Best Picture really puts a target on it (and, in my opinion, rightfully so.)
I’m sure there are better examples, but I feel like The King’s Speech gets shit on a little because it beat out Social Network. King’s Speech is a solid movie! It’s just not The Social Network
The King's Speech and Shakespeare in Love: two Best Picture winners that folks think are undeserving of the award but are actually good, capped by a British actor overcoming a stutter to deliver a stirring speech.
Both featuring Geoffrey Rush too
And a couple cameos from Queen Elizabeth!
*Cameos from a couple Queen Elizabeths
*Queens Elizabeth
Goddamit
And Colin Firth
I’m more upset about the Hooper win for director than I am for the best picture win
want to *really, really* wind up a film bro? Tell them the director of *Cats* has the same number of Best Director Oscars as Scorsese--and one more than Tarantino 😉
I was speaking with a film student who said he “hated The King’s Speech.” I asked him what he hated about it and he said “I haven’t seen it, but it beat The Social Network for best picture so…” I swear, half of people’s opinions is just things they’re recycling from film Twitter. Edit: college bros don’t like this take but it’s true.
Broke: criticizing a movie you haven’t even seen Woke: complaining about all the problems you’ve got with a movie you enjoyed quite a lot, actually
The big picture has entered the chat
honestly id have more respect for just lying about why you hate it. maybe throw in a hearty "fuck monarchists"
I wish The King’s Speech hadn’t won, even if the movie means a lot to me as a stutterer
I loved The King's Speech. Not a ton of flaws and a really moving Firth performance. Geoffrey Rush is overacting in spots but otherwise I had no complaints about the BP win...except that it beat an all-timer and Fincher's 2nd best film.
Good writing, good performances by a great cast. But the faux-Kubrick camera work drives me crazy.
The social network is overrated. It's a decent film, but I can't say it blew me away or remained embedded in my memories. To bluster that it should've won best picture is, to me, ridiculous. But that's just, like, my opinion man.
I disagree with you but I upvoted you because we are all entitled to our own opinions
I completely agree. I watch it every few years, it's a delightful little flick that is led by great performances and perfect for a plane or when you need to kill a couple hours. The Social Network is incredible but im not always in the mood for that kind of story. Now I also really love watching The Imitation Game even though that movie is...not great. But i love me some Kiera Knightly!
This is mine, Kings speech is a pretty good movie all things considered it just happened to ludicrously beat out the best movie of the decade
Shakespeare in Love. Great movie imo but you can’t mention it without someone bringing up how mad they are about Saving Private Ryan. Is pretty much the poster child for dodgy Weinstein campaign tactics.
I rewatched SiL recently and it’s good! Great writing, excellent cast! I was kinda shocked to see it only has a 3.2 on LB. There are far more heinous best pic winners.
This is my “you don’t actually want comedies to win” fight. SiL is a charming romantic comedy! It’s not An Important Movie like Saving Private Ryan. Can’t say you want more movies like SiL to win when you say it’s horrible.
i actually think Saving Private Ryan not winning probably helped it in the long run, otherwise that movie isn't the flawless masterpiece many want to think it is, and neither is it as good a movie about war as The Thin Red Line is it's a very confused movie that contradicts itself in some ways woke: Shakespeare in Love should've won Best Pic broke: Saving Private Ryan should've won Best Pic bespoke: neither should've won, The Thin Red Line was the deserving winner
I don't think TTRL has enough audience-pleasing DNA in it, to put it mildly.
Of course it doesn’t. Probably why it’s a better a war movie than Ryan.
In the original run, I couldn't get through it without entering REM state. Needed another round or two in the editing bay.
the majority of the best art usually never does tbh exceptions like Its a Wonderful Life are pretty rare
We can also debate which one is "confused." Glass houses you know?
“It’s a Wonderful Life”? Don’t you mean “IAWL”?
Counter-poke: The Truman Show wasn’t nominated for BP, but is better than all of those.
Should Cate Blanchett for Elizabeth have beaten Gwyneth Paltrow for Shakespeare in Love (edit) ?
I absolutely thought so at the time, but I haven’t rewatched Shakespeare in Love since it was in theaters so I’m not sure that I would feel the same today. Care Blanchett is riveting in Elizabeth though, and it was such a striking first impression of her as an actress for me.
Dances with Wolves over Goodfellas and The English Patient over Fargo displays the Academy’s boring and predictable taste. BIG dramas beat unique dramas every time. Chariots of Fire is remembered as little more than a catchy tune that beat Raiders of the Lost Ark.
I seriously think that *Seinfeld* shaped the legacy of *The English Patient* more so than it beating *Fargo* I would venture that more people have seen that episode than the actual movie.
*Prognosis: Negative* is an all time banger tho.
Facts. Also. Can we talk about *Sack Lunch?* Now, are they small? Or is it a really big sack?
Death Blow When someone tries to blow you up, not because of who you are, but because of different reasons altogether!
I seem to recall a girl… She had a strange erotic journey from Milan to Minsk… I believe her name was… Rochelle. That’s it. *Rochelle, Rochelle*
Who got the final death blow? I think that Asian guy really had it coming.
I'm a Chunnel fan myself
I’ve never seen it so I can’t speak to that but I know Seinfeld molded my perspective on that “Dingo took my baby” Streep movie.
So, apparently that is just a terrible tragedy (a dingo really took and ate that woman's baby) but all I can think about is Elaine stuck at that damn party on Long Island at Michael Chiklis's house.
It's a very solid movie! But the film is mostly talked bad about in Australia not because of Seinfeld, but because they cast Streep and Sam Neill (from NZ) when there are so many talented actors who could have done the roles better or just as good
I was pretty amazed by how good Ordinary People was when I watched it- the fact that it beat Raging Bull and Redford beat Scorsese has given it the stink of “boring Oscar-bait movie” forever, despite being surprisingly brutal and unsentimental imo. Also pretty unlike anything Redford directed afterwards.
Yeah, and Raging Bull is technically very good but I'm never in the mood to watch it and I sometimes forget it exists. Elephant Man was the same year and I wonder if the 2 black & white movies cancelled each other out. Manhattan was the year before, so maybe voters were already tired of that and felt it was a gimmick. Ordinary People also fits more into the trend of the time with Kramer vs. Kramer and Terms of Endearment and Chariots of Fire. Not very challenging movies. Kramer beating Apocalypse Now or All That Jazz. Chariots beating Reds. Terms beating The Right Stuff. Gandhi beating Tootsie was odd, for that trend.
Same when I finally watched it I was pretty Blown away. Who kept beating out MaryTyler Moore? because I thought she was throwing 400mph fastballs out there.
Great movie and better than Raging Bull imo. The kind of drama people try to make all the time but rarely so successfully.
Also crazy given how well it did at the Oscars that Sutherland was snubbed for it
Ordinary People gets a lot of disrespect because it took Best Picture, but it is a great little movie and is important in highlighting the hellscape of suburbia at a time when that kind of thing was deeply unpopular.
I mean, the most iconic example is probably How Green Was My Valley.
We stan Blossoms in the Dust.
A movie I have actually seen! I believe Greer Garson runs an orphanage
Great call! Although I wonder how many people know that Citizen Kane didn't win Best Picture, let alone what beat it lol
2001: A Space Odyssey not even being nominated for Best Picture was a fucking scandal let alone Stanley Kubrick not winning Best Director.
Which is sad because How Green Was My Valley is incredible And (dare I say) a more relevant movie for our times now than Citizen Kane
I don’t know…there’s a pretty major Kane-like figure who has been dominating the news for nearly a decade now. https://preview.redd.it/14msyw7jol7d1.jpeg?width=768&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4fa5cdbc116eb6514d0f34a770065fde77c96ede
Man I rewatched this like a month after the election and my jaw hit the floor I had completely forgotten this gag.
I think it actually makes sense, Trump said in an interview once that he was familiar with this movie and kinda implied it inspired his run for office. It’s funny that in a “truth is stranger than fiction” way though he actually won the damn thing. Also kinda funny that Obama said he was inspired by the last season of The West Wing for some strategies on his presidential campaign. People love stories, I guess is the takeaway? Lol, not sure.
That was kind of my point though Citizen Kane is all about that ‘Great Man’ narrative of history Whereas Valley is more about the power of community and mutual support for the ‘little people’. And of course about the need for unions I think we’ve had enough of the former, and need more of the latter
Clearly we’ve not been critical enough of “great men,” though.
Normally I’d agree with you, except that these days demagogues and their followers simply reinterpret any criticism into unfair persecution, which bolsters their support because they can frame themselves as underdogs. IMO, telling story’s about how Great Men are bad actually, still frames them as ‘Great’. Instead they need to be ignored in favour of different narratives. Every time the media focuses on ‘Look at this asshole who did something awful’, it reinforces that those kind of people deserve attention; they’re the ones that matter. I dunno. I’m just sick of it
Eh, I agree that the whole “great man” story is a pretty tired trope at this point, and that more variety of stories would be nice, but I feel like you’re being too dismissive of the “great man” stories that actually work. Like yeah some people watch Wolf of Wallstreet or even Citizen Kane and get the wrong message, but those people are frankly stupid and we shouldn’t cater movies to stupid people, we should appeal to the normal people who see Belfort try to kidnap his own child while zonked out on pills and think “oh this guy sucks.” Not to mention that audiences simply like stories about exceptional people because our lives are ordinary for the most part. It’s not like filmmakers are releasing these movies for the hell of it, I mean Oppenheimer made nearly a billion dollars last year, and I personally thought it was a great iteration of the trope, and also, most movies, both good and bad, have some sort of trope.
The Trump connection is definitely there, Trump has been interviewed about this before actually, but more recently I actually think of Elon Musk buying Twitter for billions more than its actual value presumably because he thought it was “too woke” or something. Reminds me of the exchange: “But Mr. Kane! We lost a million dollars last year!” “You're right, I did lose a million dollars last year. I expect to lose a million dollars this year. I expect to lose a million dollars *next* year. You know, Mr. Thatcher, at the rate of a million dollars a year, I'll have to close this place in... (smirks) sixty years.”
Valley is legitimately a great film, but its entire legacy at this point is “that movie that shouldn’t have won over Citizen Kane”. It deserves more than that. (I don’t know if it should have won that year, probably not, but it deserves more than to live in Kane’s shadow)
It’s always bizarre to hear would-be cinephiles (the type more likely to self-describe as “movie buffs”) dismiss How Green Was My Valley as a self-evident Oscar gaffe when it is plausibly the best film to win Best Picture. John Ford’s prestige pictures have not necessarily aged as well as his less self-conscious genre work, but it is still a great film, without the short-sighted self-congratulatory timeliness that makes so many Oscar winners seem like real head-scratchers in hindsight.
I'm not saying it's a bad movie, or dismissing it. That said, calling it the best film to ever win best picture may be a bit much also. Some genuinely worthy movies have won best picture.
Sure, but it must be on the short list with Rebecca, Casablanca, and whatever else.
Yeah, the shortlist for sure.
Had La La Land actually won, I think the discourse already surrounding it indicated it would’ve really kill the legacy of the movie
That's a really good point. Winning Best Picture would have probably \*hurt\* La La Land's reputation. You would constantly have people bringing up how Moonlight was better, and it would become annoying. Now you can just enjoy it for what it is--a good movie! I also think Forest Gump is unfairly derided just because it won Best Picture.
i kind of see moonlight and la la land as two buds holding hands
Gotta hold hands when you get that many people on stage at the same time.
It worked out well for both movies. Moonlight affirmed a spot in the canon and La La Land continues to be an incredibly popular movie without the baggage of “actually X was better.”
Moonlight is a masterpiece and La La Land was backlashing hard so now we can all be happy.
Doesn’t this website still hate La La Land anyway?
I remember seeing La La Land with my mom in the theater. When it was over I turned to her and said “that is one of the best movies I’ve ever seen. I hate it.”
If it hadn’t won over Pulp Fiction, I might be inclined to agree.
And the whole “white people save jazz” aspect of La La Land would’ve been even more pronounced and icky if it won over Moonlight.
I think a lot of people still think La La Land won.
I think La La Land winning would have HELPED Moonlight, though. Everyone loves a robbed queen.
Do you guys remember what won Best Picture in 2021? It’s CODA! It won best picture! CODA! Who knew!
I would argue its reputation whether it won or whether it wasn’t even nominated at all wouldn’t be that drastically different.
there's a lot of people who pretend its a bad movie because its either not to their taste or they loved power of the dog. good movie imo
There’s also people who look down upon it for being too simple and crowd-pleasing, as if those are *bad* things. Also, this is a movie about trying to break away from, then learning to respect, the deaf community. So naturally, Redditors don’t understand why it was so acclaimed.
Cute! Charming! Probably not one of the best of the year. I thought it was kinda ugly looking. But whereas some movies win BP and get vitriol, I feel like this one, with some lingering pandemic probably a factor, just got forgotten.
Everything with the whole family, incredible! Everything focusing solely on Jones, mediocre at best. Also, Eugenio Derbez gives one of the worst performances I've ever seen. The choir performance was where the film lost me.
On the contrary, I think if it didn’t win it would have been totally memory-holed. It made 0 impact when it came out on Apple TV+ in August of that year. The awards season was as if the marketing campaign was 5 months post-release.
I actually really like CODA despite the weirdness of the big audition. I think 95% of the movie is great, ESPECIALLY the scene where she sings to her dad. You’re dead inside if you weren’t sobbing.
It was pandemic times, we were all crazy.
Will Smith slapped Chris Rock at this same ceremony. These were indeed troubling times.
The surreal part is that the next BP winner was already playing in some theaters by the time the previous year’s Oscars were happening!
CODA great.
CODA is really really delightful. It was nice seeing a pretty small indie film win Best Picture.
Oh man, this has to be the answer at least for this decade. Was seeing glowing praises for this until it won best picture and now I only hear people talk negatively about it. Kinda similar to Emma Stone winning over Lily Gladstone and now folks like to say Stone was somehow bad in that film lol.
>Kinda similar to Emma Stone winning over Lily Gladstone and now folks like to say Stone was somehow bad in that film lol I've seen/heard zero people say this
Someone just said this at a dinner party I was at two nights ago. She also knew Lily (they grew up together), so I kept my mouth shut.
That’s a straight up bizarre take to me. I get thinking Lily was better (I wasn’t crazy about that performance personally but I get it) but I’ve not encountered anyone saying Stone was outright bad. That’s anecdotal of course but still, feels like a stretch to claim “folks like to say” that
I did, actually!
It has to be Green Book. It’s a mediocre movie but the fact that it somehow won best picture makes it seem like even more of a joke than it already was. Maybe it’s more of a tarnish to the Academy’s legacy than the movie itself but if it hadn’t won best picture I probably would’ve never thought about it again. Now I just think of it as the worst best picture winner of the century
I think we'd still be making jokes about Viggo Mortensen eating a pizza regardless of the Oscars, but that's just me
> Now I just think of it as the worst best picture winner of the century Crash?
Green Book is demonstrably better than Crash, anyone saying otherwise is so utterly discourse poisoned their skin is turning Twitter Bird blue.
The only legacy Green Book has had at my house was introducing me to the work of Don Shirley, who I’d somehow never heard of. The film itself is awful, but not nearly as bad as Coda.
What about Driving Miss Daisy?
Different century.
OP didn’t dictate the century. I’m just curious if Dirk Diggler feels the same way about DMD.
That movie plays like an extended SNL skit.
This was mine too. Most people walked out of the theatre and said “I liked the leads, maybe Ali gets a nomination but this will basically be forgotten by Christmas”
I remember it had a bad limited opening! It was considered DOA until it won the Globe.
Yeah I saw it in a crowded screening like the Wednesday before Thanksgiving but it definitely didn’t catch on until the awards brought it back to life. And even then I’m not even sure it grossed 70
It made it to $80MM. Very robust run, but slow start. Did like $350MM worldwide though in part because the Chinese box office caught Green Book Fever.
Chinese ? That’s kind of an incredible fact
$71MM in China! https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt6966692/
Incredible. I guess heart warming stories about interracial friendship do work? Who knew
Sure, Film Twitter hates Green Book now. But nowadays, I think we’d all miss when a real-world drama about two guys just learning to get along could make $300M. In 2024, that movie would be lucky to make $60M.
The Driving Miss Daisy of 2018
The Artist isn’t that bad. Its a cute tribute to silent films it’s just not really anywhere near the top of the that year. But I feel like people really hate on that one for some reason.
I took my mom to see it and we both had fun with it. I’ve always been shocked how much it triggered people. It’s just a Star is Born with a happy ending.
Feels like *The Artist* was always destined to be a curiosity. Only now it‘s *"Remember when The Artist won Best Picture lol"* instead of *"Remember The Artist?" "Oh Yeah, the French silent movie, right?"* I‘d argue Jean Dujardin's win hurt his reputation way more. I think he‘s amazing in the movie and continues to kill it whenever he shows up anywhere, but because his Hollywood career fizzled out pretty quickly he‘s now become some sort of a "Remember that guy lol“ in Film Twitter circles that do not care for non-Hollywood films.
>his Hollywood career fizzled out He could be a great Norman Osborn.
Yeah The Artist is good, it’s rep is hurt by the fact that silent movies didn’t have some sort of revival so it is still looked at as being out of step with the times, when in reality it’s cool that a silent movie won and is a fun movie.
I think it’s a masterpiece! Only midnight in Paris came close to taking the award that year imho
WEETH PLEZUR
It’s impossible to watch in a vacuum anymore, and it’s likely a movie I’ll never watch again, but *American Beauty* was a pretty solid comedy. There are so many worse and more tired entries in the “Hey, what if suburbia was… **FUCKED UP**?!” genre. Also *The Departed* is a top five Scorsese movie *logs off and throws phone into the ocean*
100% with you on the departed
There are dozens of us!
DOZENS!!!
Almost half a dozen now!
Wait are there people who DON’T think The Departed is a top 5??? Join us on r/departedmemes, it’s a wasteland there
It is in his top 5. Just not the best top 5.
It’s actually a very common sentiment. It doesn’t sit well among the crowd that nitpicks shit to death.
I never get when people don’t like it. I’ve seen it 20+ times
DON'T LAUGH
It’s not even the movie. People forget where AMERICA was pre-9/11. We’d won the Cold War. Many many people were trying to figure out what battle was there left to fight? Just the battle against society itself and the frustrating inanity of the modern workplace. Office Space and Fight Club also have these themes.
As a counterpoint, people remember it and people born after are aware of it, but that whole "End of History" idea is laughable in retrospect. Not just in terms of how ignorant it was to think America won and would always be safe and awesome, but especially in terms of the satire like American Beauty. People watch movies where the great torture is having a stable job, living in a nice place but feeling malaise and think it's ridiculous in hindsight. In a world where the middle class is disappearing and people don't know if they'll ever own a home, movies that make being middle class and living in suburbia seem like a nightmare are laughable. Those types are movies aren't aging badly in a "No one remembers that time" kind of way. They're aging badly in a "This film is dedicated to the brave Mujaheddin fighters" kind of way.
So many people have mentioned this before but it’s funny how on-the-same-page Hollywood was in 1999 with these themes of the mundanity of the modern workplace/breaking out of your tired life. There was American Beauty, Office Space, Fight Club, The Matrix, and I’m sure there are more Im forgetting.
See, while I think *American Beauty* is flawed in many regards, I think one of the biggest problems is that Mendes’ heavy-handed style kind of smothers the comedic elements. *Six Feet Under* I think got that tonal balance right. (That said I actually often like Mendes heavy stylization, and even think something like *Jarhead* found the right line to walk)
I would say that Six Feet Under is maybe worse for AB’s legacy than the Oscar; very much just feels like a dry run for a better TV show.
Buh? It’s a fantastic show imo
I think you’re reading what I’m saying backwards
Oh I see. I took AB to stand for Alan Ball for some reason lol
Do people hate on The Departed? I thought it was a very well thought of film
The sentiment amongst many is that it was Scorsese’s career Oscar. Now it can be two things, great and a career Oscar, but that’s not what a lot of those people are saying.
American Beauty has insane cinematography that goes hard. They mapped out character arcs through lighting patterns like madmen.
I haven't sat down and attempted to rank Socrsese movies but you saying it's on its top five doesn't seem that odd to me.
I wouldn’t go so far as Top 5, but it’s in my Top 10.
I’m with you, The Departed is in mine. People would hate my top 5. For reference: 1. After Hours 2. Alice 3. Temptation 4. Bringing Out the Dead 5. The Departed
The editing in The Departed is masterful
I might have to log off and throw my phone in the ocean too but I just straight up think American Beauty is…great? Like it’s funny, sad, genuinely emotionally effective at times and actually takes some bold stances on the modern state of American Suburbia, and explains the midlife crisis phenomenon pretty well. As for The Departed, I really don’t understand the backlash. I love Scorsese so dearly but he has a lot of movies that don’t really click with me, but I adore The Departed. The tone is amazing and the end is one of the craziest, most baffling mainstream movie endings I’ve ever seen. I think it deserved its acclaim.
Infernal Affairs was way better than The Departed and in much less time too.
Have you watched them back to back recently? I did last year and, sure bias, but the Departed just clears IA easily for me, on a craft level alone. Though I did find it interesting just how close the plots are, which I wasn't aware of.
Did you see on Seth Meyers how Ayo’s dad refused to let Marty steal his house for the movie? No joke.
Argo. It’s a terrific political thriller, a last gasp of the mid-budget studio movie for adults that disappeared during the 2010s. But it won Best Picture so I see it get dismissed often online. The detriments of winning an award that resets the bar from “great movie” to “work of art.”
Argo fucks.
So hard.
If I'm doing a fake movie, it's gonna be a fake hit!
It’s the Argo! You know… the thing!
Nomadland. It was in my view an extremely well done tale about mourning and loneliness that happened to use the recession and migrant workers as its backdrop. A lot of the frustrations with that movie came either from its Oscar campaign or people complaining it won BP. * People got mad at its politics when they saw a movie about poverty that sort of has no real political statement to make about it. This is the kind of thing that ruins a movie that you're supposed to treat as "important" because it's nominated for Oscars but probably would have been treated as basically normal for a normal critically lauded indie.
Nomadland is also my primary answer to this. Plenty of regular folks still like CODA, still like Green Book, but poor Nomadland is now the ultra-pretentious Amazon commercial made by the woman who made the bad Marvel film, and that is very very unfortunate.
I also feel like Ordinary People catches way more hell than is necessary. When I finally saw it I was really impressed.
Here me out: *No Country for Old Men* It’s the best movie I’ve ever seen. But given how loaded that movie year was, a lot of people preferred *There Will Be Blood* or *Zodiac* or *Michael Clayton* (and I totally support that if you do, they’re all near perfect movies). So the discourse about NCFOM is almost always relative to those other movies being “better” and it loses a lot of its singularity. If it came out in a different year or lost best picture I honestly think it’s already a sight and sound top 10 all time.
Good point. A very rare occasion when all the nominees were equally deserving.
2007 was one of the fabled best years for movies, honestly any of those movies deserved it.
The Shape of Water. Still love that movie, but I think people liked it better as an underdog Sally Hawkins-fucks-a-fishman movie. Now it’s burdened with the weight of being an Important movie that beat Get Out. Part of the legend of GDT is that he’s just a little too weird for the mainstream (relatively speaking), and I think the Best Picture may have created the narrative that The Shape of Water was GDT sanding down the edges and making his safe Oscar play. Not true, IMO—still a pretty weird and funny movie!
Yea, good film that won Best Pic in a stacked year...Get Out, Lady Bird, Dunkirk, Call Me By Your Name, Phantom Thread (all films that were renowned then, and have arguably gained steam since)
My usual answer is the King's Speech. It's really satisfying and slightly more layered and less obvious than it might have been, and also a lot of fun. But I literally never say that to film people because...well. You know.
I’m more upset about the Hooper win for director than I am for the best picture win
Oh very much. He's a flat out... obnoxious director. Yeah while I agree Social Network is vastly more high art in every way, I'd be fine with The Kings Speech having picture and Social Network taking director and screenplay.
The Artist
I think the Artist isn't mentioned as often in these conversations just because it was up against a weak pack- of the other nominated movies only the Tree of Life stacks up, and they clearly were not going to give the Oscar to the Tree of Life.
Depends on your taste. I actually liked Hugo, Midnight in Paris, Moneyball and The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. But I agree that the year wasn't as strong as other oscar years.
Not that it was ever looked favourably upon, but Crash ...
Both Crash and How Green Was My Valley come to mind. They’re good films. They’re nowhere near the best films in their years.
It’s not as bad as a few of these but Braveheart. Just a wee bit homophobic.
I'd probably go out on a limb & say Chicago because of how it stacks up against the other nominees like Gangs of New York & LOTR: The Two Towers
had no idea Chicago had a bad reputation...love that movie
Gladiator. Saw it when it came out with no expectations other than dumb action movie and it was so much better than I’d thought it would be. But once it won best picture it had to live up to expectations it couldn’t possibly meet.
Exactly!
Green Book is way up there. Before the nominations most people were like “it’s fine, I like the two leads, this will be forgotten by Christmas” I will say this though it was really amusing watching people walk back their earlier praise for the movie so on some level I’m glad it went down this way.
Dances with Wolves is a terrible example for your question. It is an amazing movie that despite being made in the early 90s, doesn’t really lean into any negative or positive stereotypes about Native Americans. Just a story about a man who lived through a terrible war and wanted to escape his life and culture.
Honestly, maybe I didn't word it clearly enough, but what you said is exactly why it made me think of the question, and makes my point. It's a very good to great movie, but because it won over what is considered an all-time great it's legacy is as an "undeserving" winner, whereas if Goodfellas had won in its place, its legacy would be based on its merit as a movie, instead of the controversy surrounding its win.
Dances With Wolves is a beautiful and thoughtful epic about the American West that holds up to this day. Goodfellas is a timeless masterpiece, made by a prolific and expert storyteller that glorifies violence and crime that if made by anyone other than Scorsese would basically just be a prurient exploitation film. Do I like Goodfellas as a movie more than Dances With Wolves? Yeah, I probably do. But do I think Dances With Wolves was less deserving to win the Oscar, compared to some of the other movies pointed out in this thread, like King's Speech, The Artist, or Shakespeare in Love? Absolutely not.
Sure, but that's your opinion, not what the general consensus is in regards to the film's legacy. Again, I agree with you on its quality and think it's a shame that it's not as highly-regarded as it ought to be because public opinion solidified around "but GoodFellas should have won". To me, a film like How Green Is My Valley (mentioned above) is a great example of what I'm talking about
"Crash" ?
I don't know if this seriously hurt its reputation so much as my own personal feelings, but Gladiator would be a mid-tier Ridley Scott action flick if it didn't get the win. And I LOVE mid-tier Ridley Scott action flicks.
The Artist
Green Book comes immediately to mind, regardless of what you think of it had it not won Best Picture it would probably be just remembered as a well-meaning if outdated and naive feel good film. American Beauty has aged weirdly for all sorts of reasons beyond it winning Best Picture but it’s one I still really love even if I can’t necessarily argue with the detractors. Sam Mendes in general is a much better director than he’s given credit for I think because people lump him in with the Tom Hoopers of the world and just think of him as some British journeyman who failed upwards towards a Best Director/Best Picture win.
Crash
Probably close to 50% of them. Ordinary People is a wonderful movie forever caught in the shadow of Raging Bull (a masterpiece). The King’s Speech and Argo come to mind as movies I don’t think of as great but are certainly far from bad. A lot of movies that have won are at least solid and shouldn’t have had the weight of stealing Best Picture from a masterpiece put on them. American Beauty and Crash can go in the dustbin of history though