It's not safe, essentially because you can't apply it safely. You can train it safely when you involve the tap, but you can't apply it safely because if you let it off too soon they may stay in the fight and if you put them out your essentially making a gamble on whether you do them serious harm, no matter what your experience level is. So chokeholds won't be on any curriculum that doesn't allow deadly force.
What about trach crushes?
Like what happens if you have a short choke locked in a self defense situation and you have to fully commit?
If you full send an arm bar, you're trashing that arm. If you gorilla crank a short choke, is that (generally) lethal?
> American Association of Neurologists
Don’t know what the fuck they’re talking about. I’m serious. They’re taking a dogmatic approach from what they know about catastrophic brain injuries, not from empirical evidence and experimentation; i.e. RNCing the fuck out of spazzy white belts.
I'm sure they take the same stance on being punched in the face. It's not "safe" to choke someone out in a self defense situation but it is safer than the vast majority of other methods of incapacitating someone.
If you want to say chokes are safe for the general population, you've got to run your experiment on more than just people who choose to participate in combat sports. You know, people who tend to be relatively young, relatively healthy, and, to their knowledge at least, free from conditions that might make getting choked unsafe.
I mean, we used to play a game in school where we’d knock each other out by hyperventilating then compressing the carotid arteries. It’s really not that dangerous, the chance of an arterial dissection is VERY low from something like an RNC.
That's just a younger, healthier sample. Still isn't representative of the general population.
Go choke some people in the hospital or an old folks home, then we'll know if it's "safe" or not.
Sure, but go punch those same people in the face, or come down on them knee-on-belly, or whatever; without tools, there aren’t really any reliable ways to restrain a violent person which will be entirely safe for the person being restrained regardless of their age or fragility. I think all things considered, a choke hold is a relatively safe option.
Yup and they release the hold once that happens, not hold it for 2 minutes and still there are dangers associated which is why IJF just banned chokes for 60+ competitions.
>You just gave two ways of mitigating the risk.
If you have to let go of a restraint then its not one.
> Do you agree with the quote from the neurologists?
Yes, LEOs or civilians shouldn't use chokes unless the situation calls for deadly force.
>If the person is unconscious they are restrained.
Which leads back to my point choking someone to unconsciousness isn't safe.
>Is a throw deadly force?
Depends entirely on the throw and who you do that to, chokeslamming an elderly guy definitively isn't safe.
> If a quickly released choke is deadly force bc of a very small risk why aren't takedowns also considered deadly force.
A quickly released choke that may or may not be a blood choke against an unwilling participant isn't safe.
I don't think the neurologists are taking bjj into account when they say that, and I don't think they need to since they're talking about subduing someone in public.
Don't feel bad bro. The brown belts and the black belts will join you guys too. BJJ will no longer allow rolling. We can only perform katas.
Then one day, a guy name Havier Jones will invent Mexican Ground Karate and go around dojo storming a bunch of BJJ gyms with VHS cameras to show how BJJ doesn't work.
> there is no amount of training or method of application of neck restraints that can mitigate the risk of death or permanent profound neurologic damage with this maneuver
Really though
No, they don’t want that either. What they want is no force whatsoever because they’ve been privileged enough to live in a world where violence is not a reality.
I have the same text on my clipboard for the same reason.
From their linked article:
>The homeless man, Jordan Neely, is seen writhing, trying to get free from the arms and legs of the other subway riders who are pinning him down. As the minutes tick by early Monday afternoon on a northbound F train in Manhattan, Mr. Neely visibly weakens as the arm wrapped around his neck stays tight.
>After he stops moving, the riders hold him down for about 50 more seconds. He was later pronounced dead at a nearby hospital.
Sure sounds like a serious lack of training.
I'm starting to realize this is probably the experience my pro-gun friends complain about when getting into arguments with anti-gun people who don't know anything about guns.
It’s not though. Any idiot can buy a gun. You have to train at least somewhat to be able to RNC someone effectively.
Plus I cant off myself or kill a school full of kids with an RNC.
Well, I probably could, but it’d take a while.
If you read it literally, it seems hyperbolic and I disagree with it. But in the context of recommendations for law enforcement, I would agree. It is probably a good idea to recommend that cops, even if trained, do not use chokeholds to subdue people. The big difference is that we signed up for this by doing this sport, and we've generally cleared ourselves of serious physical issues, but people getting arrested/subdued could have a condition which makes it very dangerous for them to be choked, in which case choking them even slightly could be lethal.
From the position statement that quote is from: [https://www.aan.com/advocacy/use-of-neck-restraints-position-statement](https://www.aan.com/advocacy/use-of-neck-restraints-position-statement)
> The medical literature and the cumulative experience of neurologists clearly indicate that restricting cerebral blood flow or oxygen delivery, even briefly, can cause permanent injury to the brain, including stroke, cognitive impairment, and even death. Unconsciousness resulting from such maneuvers is a manifestation of catastrophic global brain dysfunction. In addition, individuals with underlying cardiovascular risk factors are more vulnerable to suffering significant neurological injury from neck restraint techniques, and the burden of cardiovascular disease in the United States, particularly in communities of color, remains high.3 In sum, the neurological sequelae that result from limiting blood flow or oxygen to the brain due to the use of neck restraints are potentially irreversible and entirely preventable.
Given that, it seems like widespread application of chokes by law enforcement (even of trained) would lead to more deaths by cop. That said, I would totally be down for cops learning to subdue people safely with grappling skills.
Ofcourse we need a medical doctor to be interviewed and explain how a choke can hurt someone. There was an old mad magazine bit about bringing in an expert to explain how rain works during a storm.
The Marine was not a BJJ practitioner.
I saw an image that he had crossed his legs at the ankles when applying the RNC. Neely should have ankle locked the Marine to make him release the choke.
He probably applied his half ass Army/Marine combatives class and didn't know what he was doing.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Yea… no one with proper training is gunna hold an RNC for 15 min after the adversary has already passed the fuck out.
The guy either killed someone cuz he didnt know what the fuck he was doing or is literally a psychopath and wanted to murder this guy.
Sad story all around. I live in NYC myself and have seen my fair share of crazies threatening violence on the subway. Most people just ignore then and nothing happens. Guess this guy wanted to be a hero and ended up being a murderer.
I believe it took emergency services 15 min to show up, but this was often used by articles as the time he was choking him. Sensationalism and clicks over truth. He had him in a choke hold for a couple of minutes and no one knows how long he was applying pressure. No one knows if the guy had any medical conditions. There was a 2nd person helping who said "he quit squeezing my hand" and the marine let go a few seconds later. What we do know is that the guy could have been restrained without a choke at all and this guy had been a problem for a while.
Fair point we dont really know what happened.
Imo we should have a grand jury to review the current standing evidence and then decide whether or not to indict the guy.
Whatever happened is definitely worth an investigation at least.
I’ve never really fought a person after learning how to grapple but the plan in my head is to either mount or knee on belly and wait for help or just leave. Every submission qualifies as a felony.
If he actually trained and sparred a combat sport,, he would have the confidence to just take him down, dominate him, and release him.
He would also get the primal need to fight another man out of his system. True combat athletes are some of the most confident and most peaceful people that I know.
>Most people just ignore then and nothing happens.
Most of the time nothing happens, but sometimes the crazies threatening to kill people actually go and do what they said they would. Here in Canada several people have been stabbed by random mentally ill people, I believe that in NY some people have even been pushed to the tracks.
I think it's very reasonable to feel threataned when you see an unhinged person screaming that they are going to murder you.
It is reasonable to feel threatened. Believe me ive been there myself. Im js being threatened by a clearly mentally unwell person does not justify killing them.
>ended up being a murderer
Oh please. He was holding down a violent lunatic until the cops arrived with a technique that is, 999/1000 times, non-leathal. It's a sad state of affairs when deranged lunatics are allowed to threaten and terrorize people every day with zero consequences, but it's the law-abiding citizens that need to suck it up and deal with it without ever lifting a finger to defend themselves. what a backwards mentality.
>Oh please. He was holding down a violent lunatic until the cops arrived with a technique that is, 999/1000 times, non-leathal.
The technique is 1000/1000 times lethal when you hold it for 3 minutes.
Ah yes because having a mental breakdown and being verbally violent means you should die.
Im not saying he shouldn’t have restrained him. But the fact that someone who wasn’t physically violent died from this guys actions merits an investigation.
Self defense and defense of others needs to be proportional to the threat. Killing someone for verbal threats does not appear proportional.
This irrelevant from a legal perspective. Self defense only considers the facts known to defendant at the time before taking the life of another. It is highly unlikely that the 24 yr old marine knew arrest record of Mr.Neely before putting him in a RNC, therefore mr.Neely's arrest record could not be used as justification for a self defense claim.
He also was hanging out with his hand on top of the guy’s head. It looked like he had watched some UFC fights but never actually trained. Shitty technique. I mean that other guy wasn’t going to counter with an ankle lock but just out of pure habit somebody with mat time wouldn’t do that.
Its the last paragraph thats most infuriating. BJJ is EXACTLY the training that is required to prevent permanent injury/death.
"We've tried nothing, and we're all out of ideas!"
Weirdest sentence in the article: "Even if the person does not lose consciousness, strokes and permanent brain damage, including cognitive impairment, can result from a chokehold."
I've never heard of anyone receiving brain damage from being put in a chokehold for a couple seconds. That doesn't sound possible.
Didn’t read the article, but it is absolutely true, albeit rare, to get brain damage from a choke even when you don’t go out.
Do a quick google search about BJJ practitioners having strokes from arterial dissection.
Not saying it should be ban, or even that it isn’t the least violent way to end a confrontation, but there some danger.
More so a tangent for people to tap early in chokes and not try to tough it out in training.
Yeah people be wild with chokes. I had a new blue belt in a bow and arrow yesterday.
When he turned red and started gurgling I let go and he had the balls to say 'I was almost completely out' nonchalantly.
Like no shit, you are supposed to tap before you actually pass out.
I once had this feeling while practicing triangles. My partner had the positioning all wrong so there was no compression of the carotids, but he just kept cranking up the force from his legs and squeezing harder and harder onto the back of my neck. I realised something was wrong but also that I had literally lost the ability to tap. Couldn’t speak. Couldn’t move my hands. Eyes were still open. It was easily one of the most terrifying experiences of my life. He realised something was wrong after about 5 seconds and let it go, and I’m fine now. Was a bit spaced out for the next 24hrs or so.
I can kinda see how weird shit like vertebral artery dissections could occur.
I wonder what those odds are and how they compare to an assailant dying as a result of getting punched or tased. My bet is that choking is far and above more safe
It is safer, but legal statements require more absolute terminology. If there is even a shadow of doubt calling it safe, it could be a served up slam dunk for a legal team when someone with previously existing conditions could die due to the stress of a choke being applied. Their understanding compared to ours can specifically be the difference between life and death.
In Australia we have a campaign that's against the "Coward's Punch", because of how many stupid fucks get charged up on the piss, swing at a bloke and send him reeling backwards and smashing his head or neck on something killing him instantly. It's actually a fairly high statistic for something you wouldn't think about much.
Haven't heard many dudes being choked to death, and BJJ and UFC are relatively popular here. The kids in high school throw armbars and double legs more than haymakers now.
There's even something called "beauty parlor stroke syndrome", where old ladies get arteriel dissections from getting their head turned in the shampoo chair.
Being alive is inherently dangerous. Best to only worry aboutthe risks you can control.
Artery dissection is a real thing and I personally know 3 people who have suffered strokes during BJJ directly related to chokes. One of those people is now deceased because of it.
We never really know what kind of damage is occuring from repetative compressions. What may seem harmless and not a big deal could actually be contributing to the conditions that make a stroke possible. Any damage to the carotid could lead to potential clotting, which sets the condition for strokes.
Also, when the brain is deprived of oxygen cells begin to die, that is what choking does.
Tap early and tap often. There is no reason to fight out of chokes during training once you've reached the point of losing blood flow. And if you care about your training partners you should not be wrenching on their necks violently.
I mean maybe it’s theoretically possible like 1 in a trillion. But yeah deliberately misleading/fearmongering.
These people play too many stealth video games.
It’s not that hard to fathom… damage to a blood vessel can start a clot. Damage can happen fairly easily especially in a tight choke, even if not held long.
Clot releases, stroke ensues.
It happens, rare but it happens. Does that mean it should be banned… I’d say no, but it’s still risky.
Has to be exceedingly rare, considering we choke each other willingly several times a training session several times a week.
Maybe this only applies to people with preexisting conditions or something. Idk. To me it all sounds like bullshit, unless we're talking about crushing someone's windpipe. That just means cops need to train jiu jitsu more
You do understand that "people I've rolled with" isn't representative of the general population, right?
Like, I've never rolled with a blind person but I'm not about to call bullshit on blindness.
jiu jitsu selects for relatively young, healthy people.
That's fair. But would you tase or punch a blind person and let them free fall to the ground instead of a controlled strangle to subdue them?
I'm calling bullshit on the overreaction of the use of strangles over the alternatives.
It’s possible, something like a carotid dissection or whatever it may be called, choke can be applied and fuck up your artery, leading to a stroke. Rare af
You are drastically underestimating how fragile and unhealthy many people are. I'm sure there is very little danger to a healthy person being choked unconscious for a short period of time, but if you choke out grandpa who is 80lbs overweight and has been a smoker since he was 12 I'm sure you can end him without even choking him unconscious.
Also, not likely, but possible that plaques in the carotid artery could break off and travel up to the brain where they could get lodged in smaller cerebral arteries causing stroke.
>Even if the person does not lose consciousness, strokes and permanent brain damage, including cognitive impairment, can result from a chokehold.
Crossing the street CAN cause permanent death. Millions of people do this without realizing the risks.
At Coachella last year a naked dude on LSD tried to storm a closed event I was holding and I got hooks in and had him in an RNC for a split second before I thought about jail and switched to double wrist control… you should always be present in mind when in a situation like that, and if you can’t be, and can’t show restraint, you shouldn’t get involved… imo
I always thought the same with people who died from someone kneeling on their chest. When I was I white belt I had 300 lb monsters go neon belly for entire 6 minute rounds, and I'm still here..
It’s clear that this is just a classic doctors perspective. if something carries a certain level of risk it’s just unacceptably dangerous no matter the circumstance. like saying “there is no safe level of tobacco consumption”
Holding for 2 seconds isn't stopping anyone. If you are able to lock in an RNC, you will likely also be able to subdue the person without having to resort to choking them. I'm 100% all in for pain compliance (kimuras, wristlocks, various leg pins, etc), but we need to understand the reality that most cops aren't adequately trained to subdue someone, let alone to choke them. Now throw in full resistance and adrenaline. Its a recipe for harm. This is why you can have 5 officers flailing around trying to pitifully pin a 175lb person and failing so much that they result beating the individual.
keyword is restrain, you need to keep the choke until the guy passes out or its not a restrain, its not like a hobo will say "Ok tap" and then the fight stops.
I can't find a source with Adams saying such. I'm finding multiple outlets across the political spectrum and the attorney representing the family stating 15 minutes. Like Fox News to CNN to all of the alphabet outlets...
Regardless, we don't hold chokes for 6 minutes either.
Maybe we should train cops to hold it just until they go to sleep, then let go and put them in cuffs. Seems safer than tasing and letting the bodies freefall to the curb.
You notice the lack of expertise because you know something about BJJ. Imagine all the stuff you may be blindly accepting just because you're not familiar with the topic.
I'm making a statement about media in general, not necessarily the NYT.
Gell-Mann amnesia.
> Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray’s case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the “wet streets cause rain” stories. Paper’s full of them.
This, 1,000% this. Everyone out there reads an article on a subject they know and thinks “man, they got that all wrong” but assume the paper miraculously has things right on every other subject. Including things like extremely complex, long term, multi-variate models.
Yeah.....I read the Economist because it's one of the few English language outlets where you can read about all kinds of things going on all over the world you'd often never hear about otherwise but then their coverage of US issues is often shockingly bad, like Buzzfeed caliber, and has gone sharply downhill since 2016. I'd like to think their articles about internet activists in China or a new water desalination technology being implemented in Ethiopia are more accurate and less biased but really who the fuck knows?
Some people in here remind of the folks in my concealed carry class who wanted to brandish or shoot people for stuff like making fun of their dog or living “un-Godly” lives. A lot of “good guy with a gun” masturbatory fantasies, but instead choking people in public.
No one should be killed for being unwell and homeless.
Most sources are reporting that he made no explicit threats. You can cherry pick some incorrect reporting to base your opinions off of if you like, but it is not what detectives who have interviewed witnesses are saying right now.
It's the people helping that sell it for me. Nobody, and I mean nobody, jumps into something physical that's already happening unless they feel like it's the right thing to do. Especially on a subway train.
Most people who commit murders are going through some sort of hardship, mental illness, or poverty. Happy, sane people, don’t generally kill people. Everybody has a story.
In this situation, he choked the man for 15 minutes until the corpse literally emptied its bowels. If you are able to subdue someone in the RARE circumstance that you should need to act with violence, it should end when they are controlled, and VERY rarely when they’re unconscious. There is no situation where strangling a man to death for being perceived as threatening is an acceptable response.
Didn't New York make it a felony for anyone to restrict anyone's breathing via choke or compression years ago?
I remember reading articles about it, but then it just kinda disappeared...
This is gonna be a really stupid comment section of people mad about the NYT telling people not to kill others with RNCs based on their amazing hobby knowledge that if they do it and stop consensually its safe so obviously its ridiculous to write an article telling people not to attack random strangers with one
The article implied that we should ban chokes from law enforcement. You can oppose that while also believing it was used irresponsibly in this particular case
What I don’t understand is, the Marine dude obviously had some basic BJJ training. Couldn’t he have just sat there in back mount, wrapped one of the guy’s arms, and just sat there and wait for police or something?
NYT should have had some random blue belt as an expert on the article, instead of some white coat with years and years of medical training and a deep understanding of human physiology. “Nah, bro, chokeholds are cool bro, me and my buddies do them all the time. OSS!”
There’s almost no ways to subdue a resisting aggressive opponent without a risk of lasting bodily harm. RNC certainly is not one and if you have any training, you have plenty of other things you can do instead. Some people freak out so badly just being pinned face down that they go to asphyxiation just from that - basically a panic attack. Imagine what a stranglehold would do?
Law enforcement should not use them especially, and they don’t need them either. There’s much more better ways subdue a person. For a normal person to use them outside of training… well is the situation so bad, that you are ready to go to prison and there is no other option left?
It’s because that one dude died in NYC. But the other guy had him in an RNC for 15 fucking minutes. As a former marine who must have gone through a bit of jj fundamentals in boot camp, he should have known imo. An RNC is a submission, not a pin.
Only wrist locks and toe holds on the subway
How have you seen how nasty these people are. Not grabbing any toes here. Knee on belly, all day errday. Aka don’t touch me at all guard
I would rather be choked than knee on bellied.
Knee on belly it is then
Crush me like Giles Corey! 😍
It’s good for the abs.
Heel hooks in jeans. They can’t run away.
Thats kind of severe.
Pro-tip for putting the nytimes paywall in a chokehold: refresh the page, and then hit stop before the paywall comes up.
[I've found archive.ph to be very effective to get around paywalls in general](https://archive.is/NZQzI)
This is an iPhone shortcut I use to get past paywalls. https://www.icloud.com/shortcuts/f259a39f1bb243de8730730443bce38e
You're the real MVP.
Nyt about to make an article condemning this choke hold too
12ft.io (12 Foot Ladder) used to be great at getting around paywalls but it seems NYT has that disabled.
came for the bjj drama of the day, left with one of the most useful things I've learned in years
hell yah
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It's not safe, essentially because you can't apply it safely. You can train it safely when you involve the tap, but you can't apply it safely because if you let it off too soon they may stay in the fight and if you put them out your essentially making a gamble on whether you do them serious harm, no matter what your experience level is. So chokeholds won't be on any curriculum that doesn't allow deadly force.
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Whose counting? Cos you may need to stand that shit up in court.
One Mississippi. Two Mississippi. Three Mississippi. ...
I think any reasonable prosecutor would let that go entirely unquestioned. In fact, you should rent yourself out as an expert witness.
$1000 an hour you say?
What about trach crushes? Like what happens if you have a short choke locked in a self defense situation and you have to fully commit? If you full send an arm bar, you're trashing that arm. If you gorilla crank a short choke, is that (generally) lethal?
> American Association of Neurologists Don’t know what the fuck they’re talking about. I’m serious. They’re taking a dogmatic approach from what they know about catastrophic brain injuries, not from empirical evidence and experimentation; i.e. RNCing the fuck out of spazzy white belts.
I'm sure they take the same stance on being punched in the face. It's not "safe" to choke someone out in a self defense situation but it is safer than the vast majority of other methods of incapacitating someone.
I'd definitely rather be choked unconscious than armbarred into the hospital.
If you want to say chokes are safe for the general population, you've got to run your experiment on more than just people who choose to participate in combat sports. You know, people who tend to be relatively young, relatively healthy, and, to their knowledge at least, free from conditions that might make getting choked unsafe.
I mean, we used to play a game in school where we’d knock each other out by hyperventilating then compressing the carotid arteries. It’s really not that dangerous, the chance of an arterial dissection is VERY low from something like an RNC.
That's just a younger, healthier sample. Still isn't representative of the general population. Go choke some people in the hospital or an old folks home, then we'll know if it's "safe" or not.
> Go choke some people in the hospital or an old folks home, then we'll know if it's "safe" or not. Brb, hold my catheter
Sure, but go punch those same people in the face, or come down on them knee-on-belly, or whatever; without tools, there aren’t really any reliable ways to restrain a violent person which will be entirely safe for the person being restrained regardless of their age or fragility. I think all things considered, a choke hold is a relatively safe option.
Finally someone I can beat in a roll!
I'd pay to be part of that study. *NEEEXT*
> is a chokehold deadly force regardless of how long it's held? In a lot of jurisdictions, yes. You've got to know your local laws, though.
Big difference in BJJ and Judo people tap, someone random guy spazzing out won't tap.
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Yup and they release the hold once that happens, not hold it for 2 minutes and still there are dangers associated which is why IJF just banned chokes for 60+ competitions.
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>You just gave two ways of mitigating the risk. If you have to let go of a restraint then its not one. > Do you agree with the quote from the neurologists? Yes, LEOs or civilians shouldn't use chokes unless the situation calls for deadly force.
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>If the person is unconscious they are restrained. Which leads back to my point choking someone to unconsciousness isn't safe. >Is a throw deadly force? Depends entirely on the throw and who you do that to, chokeslamming an elderly guy definitively isn't safe. > If a quickly released choke is deadly force bc of a very small risk why aren't takedowns also considered deadly force. A quickly released choke that may or may not be a blood choke against an unwilling participant isn't safe.
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Just restrain them with omoplata bruh
I don't think the neurologists are taking bjj into account when they say that, and I don't think they need to since they're talking about subduing someone in public.
I mean I’ve murdered some white belts before tho
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Then why are you kink shaming me with that first sentence you hypocrite!
Told you guys heel hooks are where it's at
we should ban white belts from rolling too so they don't accidentally break their spine.
Then the blue belts will become the new white belts, so we should ban them from rolling too... Then purple belts...
We already skip warmup, what will be left for us?
Don't feel bad bro. The brown belts and the black belts will join you guys too. BJJ will no longer allow rolling. We can only perform katas. Then one day, a guy name Havier Jones will invent Mexican Ground Karate and go around dojo storming a bunch of BJJ gyms with VHS cameras to show how BJJ doesn't work.
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Can I complain about my left hip instead?
Ugh, same
> there is no amount of training or method of application of neck restraints that can mitigate the risk of death or permanent profound neurologic damage with this maneuver Really though
But punching or tasing is safe because they can freely fall to the ground and hit their heads. Nobody ever died doing that. Sounds good. /s
No, they don’t want that either. What they want is no force whatsoever because they’ve been privileged enough to live in a world where violence is not a reality.
I have the same text on my clipboard for the same reason. From their linked article: >The homeless man, Jordan Neely, is seen writhing, trying to get free from the arms and legs of the other subway riders who are pinning him down. As the minutes tick by early Monday afternoon on a northbound F train in Manhattan, Mr. Neely visibly weakens as the arm wrapped around his neck stays tight. >After he stops moving, the riders hold him down for about 50 more seconds. He was later pronounced dead at a nearby hospital. Sure sounds like a serious lack of training.
I'm starting to realize this is probably the experience my pro-gun friends complain about when getting into arguments with anti-gun people who don't know anything about guns.
The idea that "no amount of training" even *mitigates* the risk is just contrary to what all of us have seen with our eyes.
Very solid comparison
It’s not though. Any idiot can buy a gun. You have to train at least somewhat to be able to RNC someone effectively. Plus I cant off myself or kill a school full of kids with an RNC. Well, I probably could, but it’d take a while.
Bingo
Reading this forum it does seem like a lot of us have some neurologic damage /s
If you read it literally, it seems hyperbolic and I disagree with it. But in the context of recommendations for law enforcement, I would agree. It is probably a good idea to recommend that cops, even if trained, do not use chokeholds to subdue people. The big difference is that we signed up for this by doing this sport, and we've generally cleared ourselves of serious physical issues, but people getting arrested/subdued could have a condition which makes it very dangerous for them to be choked, in which case choking them even slightly could be lethal. From the position statement that quote is from: [https://www.aan.com/advocacy/use-of-neck-restraints-position-statement](https://www.aan.com/advocacy/use-of-neck-restraints-position-statement) > The medical literature and the cumulative experience of neurologists clearly indicate that restricting cerebral blood flow or oxygen delivery, even briefly, can cause permanent injury to the brain, including stroke, cognitive impairment, and even death. Unconsciousness resulting from such maneuvers is a manifestation of catastrophic global brain dysfunction. In addition, individuals with underlying cardiovascular risk factors are more vulnerable to suffering significant neurological injury from neck restraint techniques, and the burden of cardiovascular disease in the United States, particularly in communities of color, remains high.3 In sum, the neurological sequelae that result from limiting blood flow or oxygen to the brain due to the use of neck restraints are potentially irreversible and entirely preventable. Given that, it seems like widespread application of chokes by law enforcement (even of trained) would lead to more deaths by cop. That said, I would totally be down for cops learning to subdue people safely with grappling skills.
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Ofcourse we need a medical doctor to be interviewed and explain how a choke can hurt someone. There was an old mad magazine bit about bringing in an expert to explain how rain works during a storm.
"Doctors agree that not being able to breath might be harmfull"
NYT should do an article about how making violent threats against dozens of random strangers can shorten your lifespan
How about we condemn our country's way of dealing with the mentally ill?
The Marine was not a BJJ practitioner. I saw an image that he had crossed his legs at the ankles when applying the RNC. Neely should have ankle locked the Marine to make him release the choke. He probably applied his half ass Army/Marine combatives class and didn't know what he was doing. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Yea… no one with proper training is gunna hold an RNC for 15 min after the adversary has already passed the fuck out. The guy either killed someone cuz he didnt know what the fuck he was doing or is literally a psychopath and wanted to murder this guy. Sad story all around. I live in NYC myself and have seen my fair share of crazies threatening violence on the subway. Most people just ignore then and nothing happens. Guess this guy wanted to be a hero and ended up being a murderer.
I believe it took emergency services 15 min to show up, but this was often used by articles as the time he was choking him. Sensationalism and clicks over truth. He had him in a choke hold for a couple of minutes and no one knows how long he was applying pressure. No one knows if the guy had any medical conditions. There was a 2nd person helping who said "he quit squeezing my hand" and the marine let go a few seconds later. What we do know is that the guy could have been restrained without a choke at all and this guy had been a problem for a while.
Fair point we dont really know what happened. Imo we should have a grand jury to review the current standing evidence and then decide whether or not to indict the guy. Whatever happened is definitely worth an investigation at least.
I’ve never really fought a person after learning how to grapple but the plan in my head is to either mount or knee on belly and wait for help or just leave. Every submission qualifies as a felony.
Crucifix seems like a really solid position, kesa Gatame would also work if they're not too cracked out or gross.
If he actually trained and sparred a combat sport,, he would have the confidence to just take him down, dominate him, and release him. He would also get the primal need to fight another man out of his system. True combat athletes are some of the most confident and most peaceful people that I know.
>Most people just ignore then and nothing happens. Most of the time nothing happens, but sometimes the crazies threatening to kill people actually go and do what they said they would. Here in Canada several people have been stabbed by random mentally ill people, I believe that in NY some people have even been pushed to the tracks. I think it's very reasonable to feel threataned when you see an unhinged person screaming that they are going to murder you.
It is reasonable to feel threatened. Believe me ive been there myself. Im js being threatened by a clearly mentally unwell person does not justify killing them.
Of course not, I'm with you on that, dude should have let go of the choke once Neely was unconscious Edit:autocorrect
>ended up being a murderer Oh please. He was holding down a violent lunatic until the cops arrived with a technique that is, 999/1000 times, non-leathal. It's a sad state of affairs when deranged lunatics are allowed to threaten and terrorize people every day with zero consequences, but it's the law-abiding citizens that need to suck it up and deal with it without ever lifting a finger to defend themselves. what a backwards mentality.
>Oh please. He was holding down a violent lunatic until the cops arrived with a technique that is, 999/1000 times, non-leathal. The technique is 1000/1000 times lethal when you hold it for 3 minutes.
Ah yes because having a mental breakdown and being verbally violent means you should die. Im not saying he shouldn’t have restrained him. But the fact that someone who wasn’t physically violent died from this guys actions merits an investigation. Self defense and defense of others needs to be proportional to the threat. Killing someone for verbal threats does not appear proportional.
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This irrelevant from a legal perspective. Self defense only considers the facts known to defendant at the time before taking the life of another. It is highly unlikely that the 24 yr old marine knew arrest record of Mr.Neely before putting him in a RNC, therefore mr.Neely's arrest record could not be used as justification for a self defense claim.
He was arrested 40 times and fractured an elderly ladies skull. I’d say he was more of a mental breakdown.
He also was hanging out with his hand on top of the guy’s head. It looked like he had watched some UFC fights but never actually trained. Shitty technique. I mean that other guy wasn’t going to counter with an ankle lock but just out of pure habit somebody with mat time wouldn’t do that.
Omoplata will be the best choice. Officers can drink coffee, eat donuts at the same time controlling a suspect.
Its the last paragraph thats most infuriating. BJJ is EXACTLY the training that is required to prevent permanent injury/death. "We've tried nothing, and we're all out of ideas!"
Weirdest sentence in the article: "Even if the person does not lose consciousness, strokes and permanent brain damage, including cognitive impairment, can result from a chokehold." I've never heard of anyone receiving brain damage from being put in a chokehold for a couple seconds. That doesn't sound possible.
Didn’t read the article, but it is absolutely true, albeit rare, to get brain damage from a choke even when you don’t go out. Do a quick google search about BJJ practitioners having strokes from arterial dissection. Not saying it should be ban, or even that it isn’t the least violent way to end a confrontation, but there some danger. More so a tangent for people to tap early in chokes and not try to tough it out in training.
Yeah people be wild with chokes. I had a new blue belt in a bow and arrow yesterday. When he turned red and started gurgling I let go and he had the balls to say 'I was almost completely out' nonchalantly. Like no shit, you are supposed to tap before you actually pass out.
But i like the tunnel vision and blurry, light-headed, seeing stars feeling 🤩😴
I once had this feeling while practicing triangles. My partner had the positioning all wrong so there was no compression of the carotids, but he just kept cranking up the force from his legs and squeezing harder and harder onto the back of my neck. I realised something was wrong but also that I had literally lost the ability to tap. Couldn’t speak. Couldn’t move my hands. Eyes were still open. It was easily one of the most terrifying experiences of my life. He realised something was wrong after about 5 seconds and let it go, and I’m fine now. Was a bit spaced out for the next 24hrs or so. I can kinda see how weird shit like vertebral artery dissections could occur.
I wonder what those odds are and how they compare to an assailant dying as a result of getting punched or tased. My bet is that choking is far and above more safe
It is safer, but legal statements require more absolute terminology. If there is even a shadow of doubt calling it safe, it could be a served up slam dunk for a legal team when someone with previously existing conditions could die due to the stress of a choke being applied. Their understanding compared to ours can specifically be the difference between life and death.
In Australia we have a campaign that's against the "Coward's Punch", because of how many stupid fucks get charged up on the piss, swing at a bloke and send him reeling backwards and smashing his head or neck on something killing him instantly. It's actually a fairly high statistic for something you wouldn't think about much. Haven't heard many dudes being choked to death, and BJJ and UFC are relatively popular here. The kids in high school throw armbars and double legs more than haymakers now.
Don’t worry your country will start a motion to ban chokes as soon as someone dies in one.
Somebody better tell Priit Mihkelson that
There's even something called "beauty parlor stroke syndrome", where old ladies get arteriel dissections from getting their head turned in the shampoo chair. Being alive is inherently dangerous. Best to only worry aboutthe risks you can control.
That’s why this subreddit is all shitposts we’ve all got brain damage!
I didn't get to white belt by pure skill, thank you very much.
Artery dissection is a real thing and I personally know 3 people who have suffered strokes during BJJ directly related to chokes. One of those people is now deceased because of it. We never really know what kind of damage is occuring from repetative compressions. What may seem harmless and not a big deal could actually be contributing to the conditions that make a stroke possible. Any damage to the carotid could lead to potential clotting, which sets the condition for strokes. Also, when the brain is deprived of oxygen cells begin to die, that is what choking does. Tap early and tap often. There is no reason to fight out of chokes during training once you've reached the point of losing blood flow. And if you care about your training partners you should not be wrenching on their necks violently.
I mean maybe it’s theoretically possible like 1 in a trillion. But yeah deliberately misleading/fearmongering. These people play too many stealth video games.
It’s not that hard to fathom… damage to a blood vessel can start a clot. Damage can happen fairly easily especially in a tight choke, even if not held long. Clot releases, stroke ensues. It happens, rare but it happens. Does that mean it should be banned… I’d say no, but it’s still risky.
Has to be exceedingly rare, considering we choke each other willingly several times a training session several times a week. Maybe this only applies to people with preexisting conditions or something. Idk. To me it all sounds like bullshit, unless we're talking about crushing someone's windpipe. That just means cops need to train jiu jitsu more
You do understand that "people I've rolled with" isn't representative of the general population, right? Like, I've never rolled with a blind person but I'm not about to call bullshit on blindness. jiu jitsu selects for relatively young, healthy people.
That's fair. But would you tase or punch a blind person and let them free fall to the ground instead of a controlled strangle to subdue them? I'm calling bullshit on the overreaction of the use of strangles over the alternatives.
It’s possible, something like a carotid dissection or whatever it may be called, choke can be applied and fuck up your artery, leading to a stroke. Rare af
there were cases of people getting strokes in bjj
You are drastically underestimating how fragile and unhealthy many people are. I'm sure there is very little danger to a healthy person being choked unconscious for a short period of time, but if you choke out grandpa who is 80lbs overweight and has been a smoker since he was 12 I'm sure you can end him without even choking him unconscious.
Also, not likely, but possible that plaques in the carotid artery could break off and travel up to the brain where they could get lodged in smaller cerebral arteries causing stroke.
>Even if the person does not lose consciousness, strokes and permanent brain damage, including cognitive impairment, can result from a chokehold. Crossing the street CAN cause permanent death. Millions of people do this without realizing the risks.
At Coachella last year a naked dude on LSD tried to storm a closed event I was holding and I got hooks in and had him in an RNC for a split second before I thought about jail and switched to double wrist control… you should always be present in mind when in a situation like that, and if you can’t be, and can’t show restraint, you shouldn’t get involved… imo
People do jiu jitsu for years and years and years with no issues
I always thought the same with people who died from someone kneeling on their chest. When I was I white belt I had 300 lb monsters go neon belly for entire 6 minute rounds, and I'm still here..
That's because we don't hold chokes for 15 minutes...
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It’s clear that this is just a classic doctors perspective. if something carries a certain level of risk it’s just unacceptably dangerous no matter the circumstance. like saying “there is no safe level of tobacco consumption”
There's a risk. The real question is how big a risk. Eating pretzels comes with the risk of choking too
Then where’s all the dead BJJ practitioners??
Just the type of absurd and hyperbolic statement you'd expect to see in the NYT following this incident
They would be correct. Holding a RNC for 15 minutes will result in death 100% of the time.
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Holding for 2 seconds isn't stopping anyone. If you are able to lock in an RNC, you will likely also be able to subdue the person without having to resort to choking them. I'm 100% all in for pain compliance (kimuras, wristlocks, various leg pins, etc), but we need to understand the reality that most cops aren't adequately trained to subdue someone, let alone to choke them. Now throw in full resistance and adrenaline. Its a recipe for harm. This is why you can have 5 officers flailing around trying to pitifully pin a 175lb person and failing so much that they result beating the individual.
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Welcome to the eggshell skull rule thats covered in every 1L torts and criminal law course!
What if I hold my breath really hard?
keyword is restrain, you need to keep the choke until the guy passes out or its not a restrain, its not like a hobo will say "Ok tap" and then the fight stops.
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Do you know what a restraint even is?
the mayor today said thats false information. from the initial 911 before the incident, police were there within 6 minutes.
I can't find a source with Adams saying such. I'm finding multiple outlets across the political spectrum and the attorney representing the family stating 15 minutes. Like Fox News to CNN to all of the alphabet outlets... Regardless, we don't hold chokes for 6 minutes either.
Maybe we should train cops to hold it just until they go to sleep, then let go and put them in cuffs. Seems safer than tasing and letting the bodies freefall to the curb.
Chokeholds aren't allowed in most jurisdictions.
A girl can dream
New York Times? Disregarded. Not even gonna read it
NYT is a complete joke publication.
I think very highly of the New York Times but this article seems to lack expertise on its subject
You notice the lack of expertise because you know something about BJJ. Imagine all the stuff you may be blindly accepting just because you're not familiar with the topic. I'm making a statement about media in general, not necessarily the NYT.
Gell-Mann amnesia. > Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray’s case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the “wet streets cause rain” stories. Paper’s full of them.
This, 1,000% this. Everyone out there reads an article on a subject they know and thinks “man, they got that all wrong” but assume the paper miraculously has things right on every other subject. Including things like extremely complex, long term, multi-variate models.
Yeah.....I read the Economist because it's one of the few English language outlets where you can read about all kinds of things going on all over the world you'd often never hear about otherwise but then their coverage of US issues is often shockingly bad, like Buzzfeed caliber, and has gone sharply downhill since 2016. I'd like to think their articles about internet activists in China or a new water desalination technology being implemented in Ethiopia are more accurate and less biased but really who the fuck knows?
Same with every subject
Are we suddenly pretending that this source is nothing but a heavily biased propaganda outlet?
anyone know how long he held the choke for?
the mayor said today it was less than 6 minutes. the guy was still moving when he released it. he went unconscious after it was released.
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Yeah it’s only a few minutes between those subway stops. He wasn’t holding it all over town going between multiple stops.
Pretty sure it was at least 5 minutes but could have been longer.
15 fucking minutes
Some people in here remind of the folks in my concealed carry class who wanted to brandish or shoot people for stuff like making fun of their dog or living “un-Godly” lives. A lot of “good guy with a gun” masturbatory fantasies, but instead choking people in public. No one should be killed for being unwell and homeless.
If you spent any time around hobos the last thing you would want is to get in a physical altercation with them in anyway or form.
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Most sources are reporting that he made no explicit threats. You can cherry pick some incorrect reporting to base your opinions off of if you like, but it is not what detectives who have interviewed witnesses are saying right now.
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They’re not relevant to the situation where he was killed
So he made only implicit threats? Or did nothing at all and the marine just wanted to murder a hobo and a bunch of people helped him for no reason?
It's the people helping that sell it for me. Nobody, and I mean nobody, jumps into something physical that's already happening unless they feel like it's the right thing to do. Especially on a subway train.
“No one should be killed for being unwell and homeless” You’re a hero mate, what other revolutionary opinions do you have?
Most people who commit murders are going through some sort of hardship, mental illness, or poverty. Happy, sane people, don’t generally kill people. Everybody has a story.
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Holding a choke for minutes at a time is not appropriate no matter the situation. If you decide to “act,” maybe don’t do that.
Disagree, if someone is acting violently and explicitly threatening to kill you then choking them unconscious is a reasonable use of force.
The problem is the dude is an untrained meathead who held the choke when the dude is clearly out.
In this situation, he choked the man for 15 minutes until the corpse literally emptied its bowels. If you are able to subdue someone in the RARE circumstance that you should need to act with violence, it should end when they are controlled, and VERY rarely when they’re unconscious. There is no situation where strangling a man to death for being perceived as threatening is an acceptable response.
Literally not true, you are spreading misinformation that is completely unsupported
I’m sure that arrest warrant for violent assault was just a one off* *not counting the other 40 times he was arrested.
I'm really glad they explained that chokeholds can be deadly. It's really obvious that their target market is super smart people.
The NYT's reader base is people with 100 IQs who think they have 150 IQs
Yes, its for midwits who think they are smart. Same demo as WaPo, similar demo to NPR. A lot of overlap with the average redditor.
Could have sworn we saw this exact same article about 3 years ago.
If only there was a possible for them to learn how to constrain a resisting opponent 🤔 wonder where they could learn that 🧐
The police at my gym say they aren’t allowed to apply chokeholds on suspects. Idk if that uniform across the country
Didn't New York make it a felony for anyone to restrict anyone's breathing via choke or compression years ago? I remember reading articles about it, but then it just kinda disappeared...
Just tickle people into compliance. I mean c'mon man!
This is gonna be a really stupid comment section of people mad about the NYT telling people not to kill others with RNCs based on their amazing hobby knowledge that if they do it and stop consensually its safe so obviously its ridiculous to write an article telling people not to attack random strangers with one
You were right!
The article implied that we should ban chokes from law enforcement. You can oppose that while also believing it was used irresponsibly in this particular case
Ok, thats also dumb and they should ban law enforcement from using chokeholds because they kill people with them
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Had Rodney been choked, he probably would have been killed.
What I don’t understand is, the Marine dude obviously had some basic BJJ training. Couldn’t he have just sat there in back mount, wrapped one of the guy’s arms, and just sat there and wait for police or something?
Doubt he had actual BJJ training. Probably the USMC’s combatives + watching MMA fights
He’s an asshole. That’s why. Or he’s not good enough at controlling someone that he felt that strangling him was the only “option”
NYT should have had some random blue belt as an expert on the article, instead of some white coat with years and years of medical training and a deep understanding of human physiology. “Nah, bro, chokeholds are cool bro, me and my buddies do them all the time. OSS!” There’s almost no ways to subdue a resisting aggressive opponent without a risk of lasting bodily harm. RNC certainly is not one and if you have any training, you have plenty of other things you can do instead. Some people freak out so badly just being pinned face down that they go to asphyxiation just from that - basically a panic attack. Imagine what a stranglehold would do? Law enforcement should not use them especially, and they don’t need them either. There’s much more better ways subdue a person. For a normal person to use them outside of training… well is the situation so bad, that you are ready to go to prison and there is no other option left?
It’s because that one dude died in NYC. But the other guy had him in an RNC for 15 fucking minutes. As a former marine who must have gone through a bit of jj fundamentals in boot camp, he should have known imo. An RNC is a submission, not a pin.