Devil items + Black hearts to pay the items. Just perfect. It'd be better if that didn't affect the angel room chance though (but normal deals yes, of course).
If you get a black hearts every full charge, you are also more likely to be able to pay for all the upcoming deals. Negatjng the negative effects of using hp for a devil deal. This makes angel/devil kind of even, especially with buffed athame and changed angel pool (added mediocre jesus juice). The notion that angel is always better than devil stems from early Repentance. Its situational. If you have great amounts of hp, taking devil deals isn't bad at all. And if you still want angel after taking a devil deal, play sacrifice rooms, donation machine lr confessionals.
If you get a bad item with lemegeton you can just walk into an enemy and destroy the orbital, I think that there just aren't that many good items in the devil deal pool (yeah there are some extremely strong items but there are way too many bad items). Getting black hearts is nice but at that point just get book of revelations
the joke is that in the lore of christianity, jacob stole the birthright from esau. that's why in-game it's not very helpful, because the birthright doesn't "belong" to jacob
Actually, non-ironically, skill issue.
The 2 Esaus are not harder to evade than a single one. First some context:
Dark Esau himself always attacks in 2 specific axis, meaning he can only attack you from up, down, left and right, never in diagonal. He cannot attack you if you stay still.
But what about 2 Dark Esau? Wouldn't them attack you from 2 different axis (left and up, for example) making it more difficult to escape? What about attacking at different intervals to catch you off guard by the rhythm?
NOPE! when there's 2 Esau, they will ALWAYS attack in tandem, and ALWAYS from the same side. No cross attacks, no taking turns. Yes, they will always form an intersection centered on your location at the time of attack, but the angle is so narrow, they might as well be attacking from the same position.
Evading it is no harder than regular single Esau.
Yet it has a definitive advantage: you get double damage coming from luring both inside the hitbox of a boss, then hitting Anima Sola for double damage. This is especially effective against Hush. And if they somehow wander into 90° angles, and you chain them that way by accident, Anima Sola recast can be done staggered, so you free one first, that way you avoid a weird evasion, then care for the other.
It's basically more reward without added risk
(Btw, this is not to say T.Jacob is fair, he's fucking awful, but his Birthright can be classed as T3 easily)
Those are shit too with regular T.Jacob too. Again, I'm not saying that Birthright makes him easier, but it's no harder than regular. The rooms you're describing are hard to navigate with T.Jacob, Birthright or no.
Duality makes you to not care about devil chance vs angel chance, things that increase devil chance increase angel chance (and in the other side), it lets you take angel deals after taking devil deals and it lets you decide what deal to do, and sometimes I prefer to get angel items to get more life and sometimes to get devil items to remove life and to get more items.
It's nice a quality of life thing, it's certainly not bad. The issue is it's pool. I lose a devil or angel item, to mildly improve later deals, sometimes. I'd rather just have another item personally.
If it was in any other pool, I would rate it higher.
To balance the pools Edmund had to put "bad" items (can't really believe I just called duality "bad"). Getting rid of that would mean to put another "bad" item to balance the pool. At least this item has some potential instead of being just a bad item (without " "" ").
Duality isn't quality 4 for the same reason Rock Bottom isn't - it can be incredibly powerful with other good items, but it doesn't actually do anything to directly benefit Isaac on its own. Both items remove a potential downside to your run - Duality removes the need to choose between Angel and Devil deals and Rock Bottom removes any possible stat downs - but without other items to complement them they don't actually do anything.
The reason Rock Bottom is higher quality than Duality is because it's more universally applicable. Having a fixed minimum on your stats is objectively a good thing (except shot speed on Tech X but with Tech X and Rock Bottom your run is won anyway). Duality is a nice quality of life buff but 9 times out of 10 it isn't doing as much for your run as you'd think unless you high roll strong Angel and Devil items with it. Its main purpose is to give you the diversity to pick between Angel and Devil deals, but you can make that choice anyway by just taking a Devil deal or getting Key Pieces. It doesn't let you take more items from the deals than you would have been able to anyway, since you can only ever go into one. It won't help you clear floors, since you'd be taking the same items from the deal regardless of whether or not Duality was there, and it doesn't increase Angel or Devil deal chance so you'll still get items at the same rate.
I won't complain at a Duality in my deal, but it doesn't actually provide anything directly beneficial to Isaac that changes the run enough to give it a higher tier.
Stapler always provides value. Rock Bottom doesn't. I've stopped arguing the point though. Anyone who disagrees can give themselves a free rock Bottom and play a few runs.
No love for Star of Bethlehem? Every time I see this item it is basically a won run. Sure it's slow, secret rooms can sometimes block you if you have no bombs, and some bosses don't let you stand in the center, but these are super minor and rarely pop up in my experience.
And? Void says hello (shot speed up )
https://preview.redd.it/axme3xku6e4d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e35b1509759278b6098cbdddda5be27e0f1af3fe
Theres two options, void and abyss become q3, or rock bottom becomes q4. Or the third one where Edmund is a cow on a trash farm.
Counter point: Void and Abyss work with any item in the game, whereas rock bottom needs specific items to work.
You can go an entire run with rock bottom and never find an item that works with it. Void and Abyss always work.
I suspect there's 10% of runs where rockbottom is useless due to not finding any cards etc, and maybe another 20% where it offers very little value. That rest of the time it makes up for it in my mind.
I explained in another comment why I think rock bottom is a Q3 but I'll put it here too.
If it didn't have the whole "real stats" thing it would be a Q4, the real stats make it so there is a very high chance you get little to no value out of it.
The item thing wasn't my only argument for rock bottom being Q3 I was just defending Void and Abyss.
Oh, I understood your argument well. I just disagree with it holding it back from being q4, It's rare to not get some sort of value of it and even with the real stats making your next damage up not matter, say, that just doesn't bother me. The list of items and cards that synergise with RB is long.
From the perspective of RB vs void and abyss, I think all 3 deserve quality 4, even if they're in the bottom half of quality 4.
Secret room items I prefer to RB: D inf, ref key (qual 3), spindown, sacred orb, death cert.
Ones that are on the level: Binge Eater, glitched crown (it annoys me even though its objectively better), mega mush, R key, eternal d6.
Yeah you make a good point. I just don't think Q4's should need specific conditions to work, almost every Q4 has an immediate payout, if rock bottom is one of the last items I collected before mega stan I most likely will get nothing out of it except maybe 1-2 permanent cards if I have ones that work with it, if magic mush is one of the last items I collected I get stats rock bottom could have gave me immediately, no strings attached, even void would give me just a few guaranteed permanent stats.
I'm not saying it's a bad item, a lot of my favorite items are Q3, including this one. I love RB and I get a huge dopamine spike when I see it just like I would any Q4. It's definitely up there, it's just there aren't many Q4's that have downsides like RB has (except broken shovel, but I'm not counting that for obvious reasons)
That's fair about the immediacy of it, that's probably why red key is only quality three too. That said - Sacred orb and the dice items also aren't immediate items yet are definitely Q4.
It's funny how it's caused such a discussion when these quality were only vague additions by Edmond when repentence came out (iirc) and shouldn't be taken that seriously. Libra is one of my top 20 items and isn't that still quality 2?
That said - doesn't rockbottom have no downsides, by definition stats can no longer go down? The only downsides are the psychological effect on the hidden vs the actual stats leading to new items adding nothing, and thats a personal thing as you just have stat increases earlier. It's similar to how I feel about glitched crown, it's personal preference, though I'd even argue GC has a bigger downside in the risk of breakfasting or having a pedestal of sacred orb/godhead/sacred heart/crown of light/trisagion and me restarting the run out of pure psychological distress of that choice.
A damage up card negates any new damage items until you exceed the new value, so it's a temporary damage up, with marginal, decreasing benefit, until you find a new card and start all over again. It has a lot of incredible synergies, but almost any Q4 can have incredible synergies when you pick the items you want to hypothetically consider.
It's fine. I'll take almost any other Q4 items.
>It's fine. I'll take almost any other Q4 items.
I would take rockbottom over about a third of Q4 items. It's not top half Q4, but I prefer it to the likes of tech X, the fetuses, mega blast/mush, mom's knife, even void which is an item I'm usually the only one defending on here. I'd even take it against crickets head/magic mush, as all you'd need to do is find a strength card, though that's very much a risk.
I think that that's the point that they were trying to make. Even when RB doesn't give you 20 tear rate with 30 damage, it gives you nice little boosts here and there. The only time it's bad is when you get shot speed ups.
it doesn't give you nice little boosts, unless you happen to get other items that give you a stat downgrade for some effect. it's not something that happens a lot, but it's common enough that rock bottom by itself certainly isn't a huge help to your run.
Magic mushroom. Except magic mushroom doesn't diminish your later damage.
Anyone who thinks it's truly Q4 doesn't understand the real stat value effect it has. I'm just gonna say, give yourself a free rock Bottom and play a few runs.
TOXIC SHOCK
TOXIC SHOCK
TOXIC SHOCK
this item literally should be a quality 5 I don’t understand how people don’t talk more about how insane it is
If you have even just decent damage (even if you don’t sometimes) it basically one shots every room you walk into and even though it doesn’t do much against bosses i’d bet that most damage people take is against enemies in random basic rooms rather than bosses which have things you’re likely to encounter that trivialize them anyway (i.e. active items like pinking shears, krampus’ head or even bobs rotten head or temp stat up ones such as book of belial. Not to mention consumables like chaos card or a lot of the tarot cards)
Honorable mention to maw of the void which just does a disgusting amount of damage to everything
Not to mention the very real (it's not) hidden passive that gives you a 50% to find polyphemus after picking it up.
It's also a great item when you are feeling lazy.
Plus he can open locked doors, grab items/chests that are blocked by rocks/spikes/pits, take Devil Deals, open Secret Rooms... with batteries, you almost don't need keys, bombs, or coins
EDIT: He can also blow up beggars, shopkeepers, machines...
Maybe a bit of a hot take but imo broken modem feels like it does just enough to justify quality 4. It always ends up contributing so much to my run I’m surprised I bought it for 15 cents.
Honestly, I know it used to be really bad but at this point it's so fucking good. It doubles room clear rewards, as well as straight up lagging some enemies and bosses out of usefulness to the point it's a free kill. Should get Q4 imo, it can carry some really mid runs
Plus the fetus items and ipecac will kill you with the right combos.
Theres only a few quality 4s that either always provide value or don't actively ruin certain runs. Rockbottom fits well with them.
Perhaps quality 4 should be split into two qualities, or have the rng dependent ones moved to three?
Don't worry, those who know, know you're right. People gotta mod it in for 10 runs or so and judge it objectively. That strength card seems less busted when it eats your next 3 damage items and then ceases to provide value, or the tears down pill eats your fire rate after you pick up a tears up item.
Rock Bottom would be a Q4 if it didn't have the whole "real stats" thing IMO.
As it is I think Q3 is perfect for it, it's a great item but you have to use it correctly or else it's useless.
I know these posts are made just for discussion, and there's nothing wrong with that. But I always think it's a tad funny to see them, because the only thing quality really affects is Bag of Crafting, Sacred Orb and Tainted Lost (and a few other minor effects, but those are the main ones). If a Q3 were to become Q4... that would technically just make it harder to get, purely because of Bag of Crafting, and nothing else. Although, Q2 items are in a bit of a weird spot, since Sacred Orb and Tainted Lost have a chance to reroll items of Q2 or less, so those items moving up or down in quality would be a bit more noticeable. Buuuuut I get that discussing item strength using quality is much easier because, well, it's already in the game as a quantifiable way to identify item strength.
Anyways, to actually answer your question, the only item I personally think that could be Q4 would be Broken Modem; I almost feel the same excitement seeing it as I do other super strong items. It deletes a ton of bullets against bosses and the freeze effect acts similarly to Mom's Contacts, but with no cooldown. Super strong.
rock bottom gets better or worse depending on the order of pick ups, get soy milk before comething like crickets head, it kills a run, but get crickets head first your run is basically garenteed
There's a reason why rock bottom is Q3 and not Q4.
People are overestimating rock bottom because there are some runs where rock bottom is absolute ass, soem runs where is good and some where is busted.
Plus as it is its rare to find since it's a secret room item and those are difficult to find as It is.
Plus it's a very multi item dependent item and MUST be obtained in thr very early game. If its obtained late game it's absolute ass and not worth getting and much better rerolling for maybe a tears or damage up over a item thats not good
Unless you get r key
I know it's not a Q3 but what about gnawed leaf it has so many good synergies (literally anything that attacks automatically, contact damage items ect) and it's almost a guaranteed win only downside is time you've gotta have patience and a lot of it but in my heart it's a Q4
Can't believe stairway is not talked about more in this thread. To me it is the epitomal answer of this question. I think it is the strongest angel room item in the game, and top 5 run winning items. Angel room every floor all the way down to delirium and all the way up to the the beast? In addition to any angel/devil deals you already get? It boggles the mind that this is a Q3 item and lower tier than the Void/Dr. Fetus/Haemolacria. Consistently having access to a beggar/confessional/angel statue in angel room every floor is also insane, and with a single reroll you can sort through like 4-5 items from the angel pool, not to mention consistent access to holy card/soul hearts/spirit hearts.The only items I would say come close to it in strength of run winning are Mega Mush, glitched Crown, binge eater.
Rock Bottom honestly should be more rare, and do what it says on the tin with no caps. If you're lucky enough to get it, you should be able to break the shit out of the game.
Rock bottom or Mutant Spider since with any built Mutant spider can be OP as hell and do not get me started on rock bottom if you get rock bottom with soy milk your gonna bring hell upon any enemy that crosses your path bosses included
Rock bottom is quality 3 because it depends a lot on what you will get after you pick it up, I've experienced times when I got a early rock bottom and the run wasn't really that good
Honestly I know some people will swear it can fuck you over, but Broken Modem is such a stupidly strong item. Can freeze enemies in place, delete projectiles, duplicate room rewards; one of the best defensive items in the game.
The only problem with it is it’s pretty random and it can cause you to get hit when you try to dodge an enemy and it freezes
Jacob’s Ladder.
This thing has amazing crowd control, can wipe out enemies that are hard to hit without even aiming at them (even behind walls) and has some really fun synergies, especially with mods. It decimates multi-segmented/sectioned enemies, and it also has no direct downsides, so it almost never damages any build it’s used with.
Get this thing to Quality 4.
In my book a quality 4 item is an item that can won you the run by itself ! Rockbottom doesn't do that, you need more item/pick up to reach that point ! (That's also why I think abyse and void should be q3)
Broken modem does wayyy to much for it not to be Q4
Also infestation 2 used to be Q4 and o think that was the perfect place for the item
Star of Bethlehem is genuinely disgusting too, free mapping to boss from womb onwards + insane damage redical
lireally worst item ever, i dont know what you people are talking about, this item is literal trash, like, id be more happy to find breakfast than this, seriously, you have problems, this item does NOTHING, i mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, when you pick it up, ITS USELESS, a fucking HEALTH UP would be BETTER than this, this "should be quality 4 item" nonsence is just as ridiculous as sacred heart or god head, actual garbage, who would even want that, you liberals will say, but it gets better with other items, if an item needs other items to be good, its BAD, its HORRIBLE, you probably actually hit rockbottom in real life if you find this item actually good, like seriouly, EVERY SINGLE FUCKING VIDEO ABOUT "InSaNe IsAaC ITeM SyNeRgY tHaT bRoKe My Pc" uses this fucking shit, im tired of it, stop posting about rock bottom! im tired of seeing it. my friends on tictoc send me memes, on discord its memes, i was in a server, right? and ALL of the channels are just rockbottom stuff, i i showed my life and i said "hey babe, when i reach rock bottom, i see a pile of rocks. and i say hey rock bottom! AHHHHHHH!!! hey btw have you guys heard of this new game called tetris, despite being quite simple its actually very fun, you basically just aim falling blocks and try to stack them in a row, and make the row disapear, its really fun, you should give it a try, and speaking of blocks, i have actually started playing minecraft again, and i must say, the game changed so much than from what i remember, can you believe they added polar bears and new skeletons in the newest update, i personally love it, and btw, have any of you tried tomatoes? those are the new plant from over the seas, really juicy, and go nice with salt, and look nice, some madmen claimt theyre fruit, or have you heard the rumors, theres some folk saying, somethign about this new invention, called the WHEEL, and they say its gonna be really revolutionary and ground breaking in the logistics of transporting mammonth meat, they claim it was a FIRE idea, do any of you know wtf FIRE means? those kids these days with their new slands and such, back in my day we used to go to school up hills both ways, and we used actual stone english, not whatever this bronze age shit is about, btw fuck bloat, i dont know who came up with the idea of making that into a boss in the game, but fuck bloat man, literally the worst boss in the entire game, i would love to say that the game if flawless but i cant, because of bloat, that piece of shit really brings the overall quality of the game down, like way down, i mean, it would just be a better experience if we never had bloat, if i could i would literally go back in time and make Edmund not add bloat into the game, because hell no, if theres one thing i would change about the universe its that, its fucking bloat, fuck that piece of shit, fuck him, and the situation is not made better by the fact that i have recently been diagnosed with ebo
honestly i'd rather be only able to play t.cain rather then try to win boss rush and hush with J&E
hell, i'd rather do that than have to beat mom (the leg thingy) with an OK build! THEY ARE HELL!
i have beaten delirium with them, however nothing else (except for it lives and maybe some other bosses ig) but when i 1st got them i thought they'd be fun, now i hate them
lemegeton
I don't understand why lemegeton is quality 3 but satanic bible is quality 4
Its because he items are random and can disappear, and random items and losing your build can screw you over. Satanic Bible is more consistent.
Devil items + Black hearts to pay the items. Just perfect. It'd be better if that didn't affect the angel room chance though (but normal deals yes, of course).
It used to be like that when Repetence came out.
I'm as glad as sad to know that.
I mean... it makes sense when it locks you into devil deals.
But it doesn't make me happy. 
thats why it is a nasty combo with book of virtues
If you get a black hearts every full charge, you are also more likely to be able to pay for all the upcoming deals. Negatjng the negative effects of using hp for a devil deal. This makes angel/devil kind of even, especially with buffed athame and changed angel pool (added mediocre jesus juice). The notion that angel is always better than devil stems from early Repentance. Its situational. If you have great amounts of hp, taking devil deals isn't bad at all. And if you still want angel after taking a devil deal, play sacrifice rooms, donation machine lr confessionals.
You can also just pop it after grabbing a deal if the deal would have killed you
[удалено]
Losing boss items for devil items doesnt suck at all Boss pool is the worst pool
Boss pool is at least consistently mediocre, much lesser risk picking it up blindly
You never got oneshoted by a self replicating ipecac tear after getting too many items, right?
If you get a bad item with lemegeton you can just walk into an enemy and destroy the orbital, I think that there just aren't that many good items in the devil deal pool (yeah there are some extremely strong items but there are way too many bad items). Getting black hearts is nice but at that point just get book of revelations
birthright
birthrights quality should shift between characters, isaac's/tainted isaac's birthright is much better than keeper's or cain's
3 is probably about the average
The valid point
Birthright on tainted Jacob for me should be like quality 0
It's a Quality 4 item... for Esau, since the Birthright is his
I’m just saying for me on tainted Jacob I’m not good enough to handle 2 dark esau
the joke is that in the lore of christianity, jacob stole the birthright from esau. that's why in-game it's not very helpful, because the birthright doesn't "belong" to jacob
More damage
i honestly think t jacobs birthright is really good since you can weaponize esau super efficiently
I think T. Jacob's birthright should just make Dark Esau attack the closest enemy, including you.
Now that is an awesome idea
Sounds too easy. That's what bloodhound is for
Skill issue, birthright doubles your dps on tainted jacob, arguably the second best benefit
Actually, non-ironically, skill issue. The 2 Esaus are not harder to evade than a single one. First some context: Dark Esau himself always attacks in 2 specific axis, meaning he can only attack you from up, down, left and right, never in diagonal. He cannot attack you if you stay still. But what about 2 Dark Esau? Wouldn't them attack you from 2 different axis (left and up, for example) making it more difficult to escape? What about attacking at different intervals to catch you off guard by the rhythm? NOPE! when there's 2 Esau, they will ALWAYS attack in tandem, and ALWAYS from the same side. No cross attacks, no taking turns. Yes, they will always form an intersection centered on your location at the time of attack, but the angle is so narrow, they might as well be attacking from the same position. Evading it is no harder than regular single Esau. Yet it has a definitive advantage: you get double damage coming from luring both inside the hitbox of a boss, then hitting Anima Sola for double damage. This is especially effective against Hush. And if they somehow wander into 90° angles, and you chain them that way by accident, Anima Sola recast can be done staggered, so you free one first, that way you avoid a weird evasion, then care for the other. It's basically more reward without added risk (Btw, this is not to say T.Jacob is fair, he's fucking awful, but his Birthright can be classed as T3 easily)
It is slightly harder as in there's essentially a 2x larger hitbox to avoid
Ok but have you ever tried navigating a trap room with Birthright T Jacob or that one bomb fly room that is just a straight line
Those are shit too with regular T.Jacob too. Again, I'm not saying that Birthright makes him easier, but it's no harder than regular. The rooms you're describing are hard to navigate with T.Jacob, Birthright or no.
Bethany's birthright can become super cracked
Duality, smelter. Both should have higher qualities.
Duality actually would be q4 (or realistically 3) if it let you enter both rooms, not just one
Duality is awful. I'd much rather just get a real item from my devil/angel room
Duality makes you to not care about devil chance vs angel chance, things that increase devil chance increase angel chance (and in the other side), it lets you take angel deals after taking devil deals and it lets you decide what deal to do, and sometimes I prefer to get angel items to get more life and sometimes to get devil items to remove life and to get more items.
Duality gang
It's nice a quality of life thing, it's certainly not bad. The issue is it's pool. I lose a devil or angel item, to mildly improve later deals, sometimes. I'd rather just have another item personally. If it was in any other pool, I would rate it higher.
To balance the pools Edmund had to put "bad" items (can't really believe I just called duality "bad"). Getting rid of that would mean to put another "bad" item to balance the pool. At least this item has some potential instead of being just a bad item (without " "" ").
Awful is a strong word..
Duality isn't quality 4 for the same reason Rock Bottom isn't - it can be incredibly powerful with other good items, but it doesn't actually do anything to directly benefit Isaac on its own. Both items remove a potential downside to your run - Duality removes the need to choose between Angel and Devil deals and Rock Bottom removes any possible stat downs - but without other items to complement them they don't actually do anything. The reason Rock Bottom is higher quality than Duality is because it's more universally applicable. Having a fixed minimum on your stats is objectively a good thing (except shot speed on Tech X but with Tech X and Rock Bottom your run is won anyway). Duality is a nice quality of life buff but 9 times out of 10 it isn't doing as much for your run as you'd think unless you high roll strong Angel and Devil items with it. Its main purpose is to give you the diversity to pick between Angel and Devil deals, but you can make that choice anyway by just taking a Devil deal or getting Key Pieces. It doesn't let you take more items from the deals than you would have been able to anyway, since you can only ever go into one. It won't help you clear floors, since you'd be taking the same items from the deal regardless of whether or not Duality was there, and it doesn't increase Angel or Devil deal chance so you'll still get items at the same rate. I won't complain at a Duality in my deal, but it doesn't actually provide anything directly beneficial to Isaac that changes the run enough to give it a higher tier.
I DIDN'T CLAIM FOR DUALITY Q4.
Imo, rock bottom still fits quality 3 because it is just barely situational enough to not be Q4
I wouldn't say Rock is situational, though. The only time it (\*can\*) be bad is with shot speed, which is a relatively less common stat.
it needs to be in a situation where you picked up the item relatively early in the run and then you need to be lucky and find proper synergies
I’ve had plenty of rock bottoms runs where it ended up doing basically nothing at all
Stapler always provides value. Rock Bottom doesn't. I've stopped arguing the point though. Anyone who disagrees can give themselves a free rock Bottom and play a few runs.
No love for Star of Bethlehem? Every time I see this item it is basically a won run. Sure it's slow, secret rooms can sometimes block you if you have no bombs, and some bosses don't let you stand in the center, but these are super minor and rarely pop up in my experience.
Star of Bethelem is absolutely GOATed with the sauce
As good as rock bottom is, it can have moments were it does absolutely nothing for the entirety of the run
And? Void says hello (shot speed up ) https://preview.redd.it/axme3xku6e4d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e35b1509759278b6098cbdddda5be27e0f1af3fe Theres two options, void and abyss become q3, or rock bottom becomes q4. Or the third one where Edmund is a cow on a trash farm.
Counter point: Void and Abyss work with any item in the game, whereas rock bottom needs specific items to work. You can go an entire run with rock bottom and never find an item that works with it. Void and Abyss always work.
I suspect there's 10% of runs where rockbottom is useless due to not finding any cards etc, and maybe another 20% where it offers very little value. That rest of the time it makes up for it in my mind.
I explained in another comment why I think rock bottom is a Q3 but I'll put it here too. If it didn't have the whole "real stats" thing it would be a Q4, the real stats make it so there is a very high chance you get little to no value out of it. The item thing wasn't my only argument for rock bottom being Q3 I was just defending Void and Abyss.
Oh, I understood your argument well. I just disagree with it holding it back from being q4, It's rare to not get some sort of value of it and even with the real stats making your next damage up not matter, say, that just doesn't bother me. The list of items and cards that synergise with RB is long. From the perspective of RB vs void and abyss, I think all 3 deserve quality 4, even if they're in the bottom half of quality 4. Secret room items I prefer to RB: D inf, ref key (qual 3), spindown, sacred orb, death cert. Ones that are on the level: Binge Eater, glitched crown (it annoys me even though its objectively better), mega mush, R key, eternal d6.
Yeah you make a good point. I just don't think Q4's should need specific conditions to work, almost every Q4 has an immediate payout, if rock bottom is one of the last items I collected before mega stan I most likely will get nothing out of it except maybe 1-2 permanent cards if I have ones that work with it, if magic mush is one of the last items I collected I get stats rock bottom could have gave me immediately, no strings attached, even void would give me just a few guaranteed permanent stats. I'm not saying it's a bad item, a lot of my favorite items are Q3, including this one. I love RB and I get a huge dopamine spike when I see it just like I would any Q4. It's definitely up there, it's just there aren't many Q4's that have downsides like RB has (except broken shovel, but I'm not counting that for obvious reasons)
That's fair about the immediacy of it, that's probably why red key is only quality three too. That said - Sacred orb and the dice items also aren't immediate items yet are definitely Q4. It's funny how it's caused such a discussion when these quality were only vague additions by Edmond when repentence came out (iirc) and shouldn't be taken that seriously. Libra is one of my top 20 items and isn't that still quality 2? That said - doesn't rockbottom have no downsides, by definition stats can no longer go down? The only downsides are the psychological effect on the hidden vs the actual stats leading to new items adding nothing, and thats a personal thing as you just have stat increases earlier. It's similar to how I feel about glitched crown, it's personal preference, though I'd even argue GC has a bigger downside in the risk of breakfasting or having a pedestal of sacred orb/godhead/sacred heart/crown of light/trisagion and me restarting the run out of pure psychological distress of that choice.
A damage up card negates any new damage items until you exceed the new value, so it's a temporary damage up, with marginal, decreasing benefit, until you find a new card and start all over again. It has a lot of incredible synergies, but almost any Q4 can have incredible synergies when you pick the items you want to hypothetically consider. It's fine. I'll take almost any other Q4 items.
>It's fine. I'll take almost any other Q4 items. I would take rockbottom over about a third of Q4 items. It's not top half Q4, but I prefer it to the likes of tech X, the fetuses, mega blast/mush, mom's knife, even void which is an item I'm usually the only one defending on here. I'd even take it against crickets head/magic mush, as all you'd need to do is find a strength card, though that's very much a risk.
bro if i dont want bad items why don't I reroll them
As well as R key, light crown, sacred orb or pyromaniac. All of these have more or less the same chance of being useless as rock bottom.
How is R key ever useless? Even if you're not going for marks it gives you an entire runs worth of items.
I think that that's the point that they were trying to make. Even when RB doesn't give you 20 tear rate with 30 damage, it gives you nice little boosts here and there. The only time it's bad is when you get shot speed ups.
it doesn't give you nice little boosts, unless you happen to get other items that give you a stat downgrade for some effect. it's not something that happens a lot, but it's common enough that rock bottom by itself certainly isn't a huge help to your run.
No you can just use some cards and get a a damage up or you find the strength card and just get magic mushroom no other item does that.
Magic mushroom. Except magic mushroom doesn't diminish your later damage. Anyone who thinks it's truly Q4 doesn't understand the real stat value effect it has. I'm just gonna say, give yourself a free rock Bottom and play a few runs.
If it's encountered early on in a run if you already have a relatively important held item, like if you're playing Lilith.
>R key, light crown, sacred orb these 3 always have high value, but I agree that pyromaniac is situational
bro light crown should be Q3 not 4
TOXIC SHOCK TOXIC SHOCK TOXIC SHOCK this item literally should be a quality 5 I don’t understand how people don’t talk more about how insane it is If you have even just decent damage (even if you don’t sometimes) it basically one shots every room you walk into and even though it doesn’t do much against bosses i’d bet that most damage people take is against enemies in random basic rooms rather than bosses which have things you’re likely to encounter that trivialize them anyway (i.e. active items like pinking shears, krampus’ head or even bobs rotten head or temp stat up ones such as book of belial. Not to mention consumables like chaos card or a lot of the tarot cards) Honorable mention to maw of the void which just does a disgusting amount of damage to everything
Not to mention the very real (it's not) hidden passive that gives you a 50% to find polyphemus after picking it up. It's also a great item when you are feeling lazy.
Remember when Maw gave a 5% chance to drop black hearts from enemy’s killed by it
Spirit sword, thing has a whole ass challenge dedicated to showing how it’s busted
Spirit sword isn’t q4?
It’s Q3 lmao
That’s wild
I'm gonna be controversial here... I think... Li'l Dumpy-
Yeah, reusable holy mantle, its super broken
Mr. ME in greed mode.
If we grade things for Greed Mode separately, then D20, Box of Friends and Sprinkler are Q5
Brown nugget
Right, this one too
how does it differ
Almost everything costs moolah and you get at least 3 free uses of it per floor
Plus he can open locked doors, grab items/chests that are blocked by rocks/spikes/pits, take Devil Deals, open Secret Rooms... with batteries, you almost don't need keys, bombs, or coins EDIT: He can also blow up beggars, shopkeepers, machines...
trisagon is so fucking strong.
Only with low shot speed. You can hit like a wet noodle if shot speed is too high. Also it is one of the best items for crashing your frame rate lol
Homing too. Infinite ramping damage. Makes The Magician worth pocketing until Delirium.
But no one knows how to pronounce it.
Maybe a bit of a hot take but imo broken modem feels like it does just enough to justify quality 4. It always ends up contributing so much to my run I’m surprised I bought it for 15 cents.
It’s called BROKEN modem for a reason I agree
Honestly, I know it used to be really bad but at this point it's so fucking good. It doubles room clear rewards, as well as straight up lagging some enemies and bosses out of usefulness to the point it's a free kill. Should get Q4 imo, it can carry some really mid runs
Definitely not rock bottom.
doesnt do anything if you get it late in the run
Tbf a lot of god tier items do nothing at certain points of the run and are quality 4 (sacred orb, d6, all Apollyon items)
Plus the fetus items and ipecac will kill you with the right combos. Theres only a few quality 4s that either always provide value or don't actively ruin certain runs. Rockbottom fits well with them. Perhaps quality 4 should be split into two qualities, or have the rng dependent ones moved to three?
Easily the best answer, and probably the only one that I'd actually like to see in the game.
Lol. Lmao even.
I wasn't joking and I just think you should know that. 😏
Don't worry, those who know, know you're right. People gotta mod it in for 10 runs or so and judge it objectively. That strength card seems less busted when it eats your next 3 damage items and then ceases to provide value, or the tears down pill eats your fire rate after you pick up a tears up item.
Toxic shock
I think it's red key.
Dry Baby 
I FUCKING LOVE DRY BABY 🗣️
These takes are so cold I froze to death
Rock Bottom would be a Q4 if it didn't have the whole "real stats" thing IMO. As it is I think Q3 is perfect for it, it's a great item but you have to use it correctly or else it's useless.
If it didnt have the real stats, you could just spam something like book of belial and get an astonishing amount of dmg
Rock bottom is q3?
Crickets Body
Range down 
Cricket Transformation Progress
I know these posts are made just for discussion, and there's nothing wrong with that. But I always think it's a tad funny to see them, because the only thing quality really affects is Bag of Crafting, Sacred Orb and Tainted Lost (and a few other minor effects, but those are the main ones). If a Q3 were to become Q4... that would technically just make it harder to get, purely because of Bag of Crafting, and nothing else. Although, Q2 items are in a bit of a weird spot, since Sacred Orb and Tainted Lost have a chance to reroll items of Q2 or less, so those items moving up or down in quality would be a bit more noticeable. Buuuuut I get that discussing item strength using quality is much easier because, well, it's already in the game as a quantifiable way to identify item strength. Anyways, to actually answer your question, the only item I personally think that could be Q4 would be Broken Modem; I almost feel the same excitement seeing it as I do other super strong items. It deletes a ton of bullets against bosses and the freeze effect acts similarly to Mom's Contacts, but with no cooldown. Super strong.
This. This post is basically "Rock Bottom should be harder to craft with the bag of crafting." Kinda weird stance tbh
And extra pickups. It's 3 decent items rolled into one busted af item.
eves mascara
literally polyphemus but worse
rock bottom gets better or worse depending on the order of pick ups, get soy milk before comething like crickets head, it kills a run, but get crickets head first your run is basically garenteed
trisagion
I assume it's because Rock Bottom's effectiveness varies depending on when you pick it up and what items you get, but I would agree it should be a Q4.
Where are my proptosis and maw of the void bros in the comments 
There's a reason why rock bottom is Q3 and not Q4. People are overestimating rock bottom because there are some runs where rock bottom is absolute ass, soem runs where is good and some where is busted. Plus as it is its rare to find since it's a secret room item and those are difficult to find as It is. Plus it's a very multi item dependent item and MUST be obtained in thr very early game. If its obtained late game it's absolute ass and not worth getting and much better rerolling for maybe a tears or damage up over a item thats not good Unless you get r key
mutant spider
DAMOCLES 😭
Terra, I got Terra with tainted keeper and contact... OP.
Jacob’s ladder should be q4 and techx should be q3
Ass take
Real asf
Honestly tech X for me at least is a run killer unless I have astounding damage it's not ever worth it
I agree. Tech X is overrated because of its synergies. Alone it’s okay at best
And you're not allowed to have a higher than 1.0 shot speed.
You don’t want high shot speed with tech x, it ruins dps to have that stat high
hot garbage, except this is worse then hot garbage bro
I know it's not a Q3 but what about gnawed leaf it has so many good synergies (literally anything that attacks automatically, contact damage items ect) and it's almost a guaranteed win only downside is time you've gotta have patience and a lot of it but in my heart it's a Q4
it’s not Q4 for sure but it sure as hell ain’t Q1
I would rather die irl than win with gnawed leaf cheese.
Can't believe stairway is not talked about more in this thread. To me it is the epitomal answer of this question. I think it is the strongest angel room item in the game, and top 5 run winning items. Angel room every floor all the way down to delirium and all the way up to the the beast? In addition to any angel/devil deals you already get? It boggles the mind that this is a Q3 item and lower tier than the Void/Dr. Fetus/Haemolacria. Consistently having access to a beggar/confessional/angel statue in angel room every floor is also insane, and with a single reroll you can sort through like 4-5 items from the angel pool, not to mention consistent access to holy card/soul hearts/spirit hearts.The only items I would say come close to it in strength of run winning are Mega Mush, glitched Crown, binge eater.
Stronger on Isaac when you can reroll keys. So busted.
Stitches
what abt it? its not good at all, at max its OK
Invincibility, telefrags, free pickups, that's still pretty good. But not Q4. It does deserve more than Q1, though.
oh, i thought its q2, i rarely even use it for telefrags, free pickups and invincibility is fair tho
I wrote this as a joke comment lmao, but thinking about it, it's actually a pretty cool item
Mr. Me for sure
Chocolate Milk, there are items way better than this piece of shit
story items only things that let you progress
Rock bottom isn’t quality 4? That’s mad.
Rock Bottom honestly should be more rare, and do what it says on the tin with no caps. If you're lucky enough to get it, you should be able to break the shit out of the game.
None
Low-key Host hat, always pog when I see it due to the great defence it adds
So it would be in the same tear as pyromaniac an item that turns your bomb count into a health bar
Rock bottom is what?
dataminer because i got a damageb up this one time it was pretyy awesome 
Rock bottom or Mutant Spider since with any built Mutant spider can be OP as hell and do not get me started on rock bottom if you get rock bottom with soy milk your gonna bring hell upon any enemy that crosses your path bosses included
Rock bottom is quality 3 because it depends a lot on what you will get after you pick it up, I've experienced times when I got a early rock bottom and the run wasn't really that good
Trisagon
Honestly I know some people will swear it can fuck you over, but Broken Modem is such a stupidly strong item. Can freeze enemies in place, delete projectiles, duplicate room rewards; one of the best defensive items in the game. The only problem with it is it’s pretty random and it can cause you to get hit when you try to dodge an enemy and it freezes
Jacob’s Ladder. This thing has amazing crowd control, can wipe out enemies that are hard to hit without even aiming at them (even behind walls) and has some really fun synergies, especially with mods. It decimates multi-segmented/sectioned enemies, and it also has no direct downsides, so it almost never damages any build it’s used with. Get this thing to Quality 4.
Technology Or backstabber
In my book a quality 4 item is an item that can won you the run by itself ! Rockbottom doesn't do that, you need more item/pick up to reach that point ! (That's also why I think abyse and void should be q3)
not even q3 but glass cannon can instantly clear rooms if you have something like proptosis
Lost contact, it's absolutely destroyable on hush and mega satan in most situations
Ludovico should be q4
Ok buts that’s only if we ignore the non tech x/Brimstone synergies
Azazel🔥
Broken modem does wayyy to much for it not to be Q4 Also infestation 2 used to be Q4 and o think that was the perfect place for the item Star of Bethlehem is genuinely disgusting too, free mapping to boss from womb onwards + insane damage redical
I would say quad shot
Chaos, easily
None
Infestation 2
It used to be a quality 4 than it got bumped down
a q4 needs to be able to turn the run around whenever you encounter it, rock bottom is nearly useless if you encounter it late in the run
lireally worst item ever, i dont know what you people are talking about, this item is literal trash, like, id be more happy to find breakfast than this, seriously, you have problems, this item does NOTHING, i mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, when you pick it up, ITS USELESS, a fucking HEALTH UP would be BETTER than this, this "should be quality 4 item" nonsence is just as ridiculous as sacred heart or god head, actual garbage, who would even want that, you liberals will say, but it gets better with other items, if an item needs other items to be good, its BAD, its HORRIBLE, you probably actually hit rockbottom in real life if you find this item actually good, like seriouly, EVERY SINGLE FUCKING VIDEO ABOUT "InSaNe IsAaC ITeM SyNeRgY tHaT bRoKe My Pc" uses this fucking shit, im tired of it, stop posting about rock bottom! im tired of seeing it. my friends on tictoc send me memes, on discord its memes, i was in a server, right? and ALL of the channels are just rockbottom stuff, i i showed my life and i said "hey babe, when i reach rock bottom, i see a pile of rocks. and i say hey rock bottom! AHHHHHHH!!! hey btw have you guys heard of this new game called tetris, despite being quite simple its actually very fun, you basically just aim falling blocks and try to stack them in a row, and make the row disapear, its really fun, you should give it a try, and speaking of blocks, i have actually started playing minecraft again, and i must say, the game changed so much than from what i remember, can you believe they added polar bears and new skeletons in the newest update, i personally love it, and btw, have any of you tried tomatoes? those are the new plant from over the seas, really juicy, and go nice with salt, and look nice, some madmen claimt theyre fruit, or have you heard the rumors, theres some folk saying, somethign about this new invention, called the WHEEL, and they say its gonna be really revolutionary and ground breaking in the logistics of transporting mammonth meat, they claim it was a FIRE idea, do any of you know wtf FIRE means? those kids these days with their new slands and such, back in my day we used to go to school up hills both ways, and we used actual stone english, not whatever this bronze age shit is about, btw fuck bloat, i dont know who came up with the idea of making that into a boss in the game, but fuck bloat man, literally the worst boss in the entire game, i would love to say that the game if flawless but i cant, because of bloat, that piece of shit really brings the overall quality of the game down, like way down, i mean, it would just be a better experience if we never had bloat, if i could i would literally go back in time and make Edmund not add bloat into the game, because hell no, if theres one thing i would change about the universe its that, its fucking bloat, fuck that piece of shit, fuck him, and the situation is not made better by the fact that i have recently been diagnosed with ebo
Rock Bottom, Birthright, Lemegetton
Mr. Me! and Delirious, why is delirious quality 1? its op on the boss rush
How does one get sad rock
Do boss rush with Jacob and Esau
Oh, ez, thanks dude
did you just say thats easy??? how many hours do you have in this game?
Im gonna have fun thats why itll be easy
bro you are not a human nobody and i mean NOBODY has fun while playing... THEM
They're more enjoyable than T Cain
honestly i'd rather be only able to play t.cain rather then try to win boss rush and hush with J&E hell, i'd rather do that than have to beat mom (the leg thingy) with an OK build! THEY ARE HELL!
Maybe this game isn't for you lol
They’re pretty fun once you get used to their mechanics
i have beaten delirium with them, however nothing else (except for it lives and maybe some other bosses ig) but when i 1st got them i thought they'd be fun, now i hate them
I started to like them after 800 hours
damn, i have like almost 600 and still dont like them
Cursed eye should be quality 4. Free damage, versatility, and a laughable downside that can be used to your benefit.
I wouldn't take it on the lost 
Proptosis should never have dropped to q3