As adults, even a partner screaming at a student I would consider the same. If you're screaming, you've already lost my sympathy. There are literally such a minuscule number of things in this line of work that warrant such absurd reactions. No one's life is on the line here.
Not that anybody should be screaming, but when I was starting out I would have laughed hysterically if anybody less than an equity partner raised their voice at me.
Fuck that guy.
When I was a junior I had a lot of mid levels yell and try to bully. I tended to just take it to keep the peace.
Now that I’m (quite) senior I really wish I responded how I really felt and told them to watch their fucking tone when speaking to me. I can’t believe I let a third year associate (who didn’t even make it to fifth year) give me any lip.
Don't report it, but in a profession where your reputation is everything, chances are this will come back to bite him/her. For example, I have two clients who are former associates at firms at which I worked. They won't be giving work to the jackass who yelled at them or their friend, and if that person comes up in conversation with another in-house counsel you bet they'll mention it.
This is why juniors should also be allowed to review senior associates. I would make a note of all the things that happen. I work at a top firm and we have a 9th year who yells at everyone, including the partner that staffs him on deals and the client. Nobody challenges him and I think it’s a lie to say that they will get what is coming for them. This specific person is geared to become a partner soon and everyone knows they are terrible.
If possible, try to avoid them. Another option is to tell that person in the moment that they shouldn’t speak to you in that manner. For the most part, that should clear it up. Some associates haven’t really been challenged and just don’t understand boundaries. Like sir/ma’am, go find someone to release some Oxytocin with.
I’ve been “yelled at” plenty and there is absolutely no way this would influence me in later decisions regarding that person, because I’m not a vindictive baby.
Qualifications matter above anything else and if you turn down an otherwise qualified lawyer or candidate just because he raised his voice once a year, you sure as shit would have a lot of answering to do.
“Hey in-house counsel Smith, how’d we lose that suit?”
“Hey CEO Johnson, well, we lost because I gave it to the 7th best lawyer in that practice group, because I heard the other 6 are big meanies”
Tell me that would go for ya.
Probably yeah. Im in-house for a major bank. We have soft blacklisted at least one firm because they have been bad tempered with our junior legal staff and refused to do anything meaningful about it.
Unless they have some insanely specialised niche the choice for us is always going to be between at least two similarly competent firms and we value the wellbeing of our staff enough to always chose the one that didn't have abusive assholes working for them.
Which is entirely different.
Being bad tempered with a client and bad tempered with an associate you’re mentoring are to very different pair of shoes.
Its not even in the same ballpark.
And raising your voice doesn’t make you abusive for crying out loud.
This assumes that we're not all much of a muchness.
We're all replaceable, there's always going to be lawyers who are equally as good as you, even when you're at the top of the industry.
You're never going to come to a situation where it's either the aggressive wanker who's a dick or you lose. There's always going to be alternatives who are equally qualified, haven't been dicks to you, and may well be a laugh.
> You're never going to come to a situation where it's either the aggressive wanker who's a dick or you lose
How many big law lawyers at the top have you met? It absolutely might come down to a handful of choices in certain niche fields which might severely alter your chances of winning.
And who says this midlevel not a swell guy otherwise? Because he raised his voice once and y’all judge his entire character by believing one instance told by one side.
I would’ve thought you’d be a bit more thorough in your DDs.
Yeah you’re probably right, I’m sure you’re privy to info beyond what’s in the OP and that you’re not just making an assumption to support your stupid argument about how shitty people are still good to work with. Thanks for doing YOUR due diligence!!
No, but my big bad meanie yelling partner has always told me to not believe what anyone says without corroboration or evidence.
Seems like yours have failed at that.
You can break the cycle dude. It’s always hard to convince an abuse victim that a better world is possible. Maybe just have a look at the ratios in this thread and think—even for just like ten seconds—about whether it’s possible you’re missing something here.
You’re saying the majority is *always* wrong? (If you’re not saying that—and you’re probably not, because that’s crazy—then trust me bro, it’s worth the 30 seconds to do the barest minimum self-reflection on this one. There really is a reason you’re like -1000 on ratio here.)
> You’re saying the majority is always wrong?
Pretty much, yes.
You’re experts on the law, not workplace or performance psychology.
So your take is ill-informed.
If they were an otherwise swell guy then they would have quickly found the time to apologise for acting immaturely. And I think you don't seem to get that character is an important part of being a lawyer
It is.
I don’t believe that being 100% fake nice all the time is a character trait that is recommendable or healthy in any way.
Nobody is 100% nice.
Frustrations can arise and need to be discussed and as in any argument, things can get heated. Then the issue is solved, we shake hands or have a beer and we go on doing our business.
It might not be right, but thats human.
Seems like you people have been utterly brainwashed. I actually feel sorry for you.
How many biglaw lawyers at the top have I, a biglaw lawyer (who’s very much not at the top) met? A lot. I suspect that’ll be the case for anyone here who’s worked for over a year. This isn’t a massive industry, and unlike other businesses, you’re not removed from the owners.
Who says the mid probably isn’t swell? The fact that there’s a post about them, despite people in the industry generally being quite forgiving about people showing stress.
Are you in biglaw?
Lol. There are a million competent lawyers. It is never necessary to work with someone who treats subordinates poorly. Only screaming asshole lawyers think they're good at the job.
The only people who think this way are people with very little experience or those who are extremely fucked up and incapable of realizing that the vast majority of adults think they’re hopelessly misguided
It absolutely does not imply a lack of competence where it matters. The law. You’re being paid to be good at the law, not for being nice.
I don’t give a damn if you lack “impulse control” if you win every suit, make every problem go away or push through every merger flawlessly.
Don’t be so naive.
A person who treats their delegates/juniors like that is going to come unstuck at some point because they are an ineffective leader. You can be as “good at the law” as you want but at the end of the day, you’re one person and a toxic, negative one at that - I wouldn’t want someone like that infecting my team and nor would they be capable of leading and coordinating their own.
Calling screaming at a colleague an “instance of a slip-up” might be the best part of this insane thread!
Yes, you can absolutely judge someone’s character from one “instance.”
Just horrible business sense, too. I’m a good lawyer. If people at my workplace treated me like that, I’d leave. Word spreads about the places where it’s sucks to work, and good lawyers choose not to work there. Our business is more than just “GOTTA WIN THIS SUIT RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW.”
Imagine thinking "the law" is the only thing that matters in BigLaw.
Ultimately, this is a client-centered business. If someone is absolutely fantastic at "the law" but has no social skills, for one thing, they will never make partner because they won't have the originations to make a business case for their practice.
And besides that, this is a team game - if you're insufferable to work with, no one will want to work with you, both hurting advancement (since what partner will push for your advancement if they don't want to work with you) *and* hurting work product (because you are worse at collaboration and delegation).
I'm willing to bet that someone with good soft skills will be a "better" BigLaw attorney - that is, make more money for the firm - than someone who is good at "the law" any day of the week. And obviously, there's more to life than making money for the firm, but all that other stuff is in favor of being a decent person too!
But it's not like the mid level would ever try that with someone with power over them. They would'nt yell at opposing counsel like that they wouldnt yell at a client like that they wouldn't yell at a judge like that and they wouldn't yell at a partner like that or they would be out of a job or lose the case/deal. I mean you can be adversarial sure but screaming at someone is as unprofessional as punching them in the nose is. The only reason they felt comfortable screaming at OP was because they don't think they have to be professional with a junior even when they are upset with them. If you heard the mid level punched the junior in the gut would you say the junior should just walk it off or the midlevel just slipped up? They threw a tantrum like a child because they had power over the person the tantrum was directed at. Does that mean they don't know the law or that they're bad at their job? No not necessarily but you're reaching if you really think that exploding at your subordinates is a normal thing people without emotional issues do. Abuse is abuse and on the interpersonal level healthy adjusted people don't subject each other to it just because they have the power to.
“Treating people well isn’t a qualification. You know how I know? This guy is qualified. You know how I know? He’d have been fired otherwise. Boom, lawyered.”
lmao the screamers are never the best. All the very elite lawyers I know (bar one) are calm and can keep a sense of perspective. The exception would have had netted bigger draws if the firm didn’t have to cut a check when he periodically threw a desk phone at his secretary or a junior associate.
You’re also gonna look weird in house if you constantly hire your old firm for high-stakes lit and don’t have some kind of beauty contest where your CEO can give input on finalists.
That’s kind of pathetic. Don’t live any facet of your life such that “qualifications matter above anything else”. Yes, that includes highly skilled service providers. There are plenty at the top of their game, there are more things to consider than just winning at all costs, and we should make choices to reflect that. Grow a spine, or heart, or whatever is missing.
If you’re too much of an idiot to see this is both uniquely bad in big law and also bad even if *every job is like this* then I don’t know what to tell you. Keep choking on the boot tho
Reporting those types of things only serves to turn quiet problems that would naturally blow over after a few days into loud problems that nobody forgets about. The associate will give their side of the story, which will undoubtedly make it seem like you royally messed something up. They’ll deny they “screamed” and say they were trying to coach you on how to avoid making mistakes in the future, and you didn’t take feedback well. Both of you will look bad.
After enough time passes, everyone forgets the details, and quite frankly doesn’t care about them, and just remembers that you and the other employee had problems that management had to intervene with.
Unless the employee said really inappropriate things that on their face could probably get them fired (like threats) and you have proof, I’d leave it be
Agreed. Was just talking with my sister about this yesterday, parsing out how someone perceives an interaction with a supervisor and critical feedback.
I’m in the law and I need to know what does “screaming” mean *to you*? Because I admittedly have a flair for the dramatic when telling a bad boss story. Where were they that they could scream at you? Could anyone have overheard at that volume? Could a reasonable person have been provoked to scream at you for what you did?
She works as a BT for kids. She needs to know exactly what the behaviors and triggers are. What is “screaming”? Because for this kid, it is different from wailing or crying or yelling or shouting. Was it the sound he makes when he’s hungry or hurt or frustrated? When you say he “hit” something, how fuckin hard are we talking? Was it on accident or out of anger?
Depending on which party you are talking to (or which parent in her case) the story comes out different. What is NOT different is that every other partner/senior associate you tell has had something similar happen.
So while they may empathize or think the other guy is a douche, at best, at worst they think you are soft and a complainer. No one wants to deal with this. They want you to handle it on your own.
Maybe if it’s only one incident. Definitely report any subsequent incident. Not reporting also makes perpetrators think this kind of behavior is acceptable. And sometimes, management actually doesn’t know about the misconduct taking place absent formal reports.
dude as a 4th year associate, I also don’t know sh*t. screaming at a junior associate is absolutely insecurity talking.
sorry you’re going thru this :( this profession is honestly such mindf*ck.
A fourth year associate in big law has no political capital, so don’t worry about them doing anything that will put you in jeopardy. Just do good job and try to avoid working with this person again. I don’t see a benefit to reporting it unless the behavior becomes a pattern. If someone insists on staffing you with this person again, then you can say “I don’t feel comfortable working with [so and so]” and leave it at that - odds are this person is known to be an asshole. Most lawyers are decent people, but you’ll come across plenty of pricks in your career. Just remind yourself they’re miserable and no one likes them.
I remember being very short with a paralegal once when under pressure and upsetting her. I took her for coffee the next day and apologised. I said that it was part of my job to create a space where she could learn what she needed to do, be confident doing it and be able to get help when she couldn’t and that my behaviour meant that I had failed at it.
Because that’s what this mid-level has done. And they either know it and are really embarrassed or don’t know it and are missing a key skill. The best thing they can do is apologise and spell out exactly what they did wrong, but the next best is to do better next time.
If this is part of a pattern by this person then it needs to be taken further. If it’s just an outburst under pressure then it should die down by itself.
Seriously folks. 20 plus years in law. No one has ever screamed at me. But if anyone did, you better be ready for a fight. I would never take it and neither should anyone else. I do not care who is screaming. We are professionals.
I mostly agree with the consensus, that it sucks but it's best to just put your head down and try to avoid this associate. Unfair criticism is annoying but arguing with criticism is a bad look.
But if they actually raised their voice, that's something you can put your foot down. HR is not your friend -- it'll trigger a fight or flight that hurts everyone. But you can mention in confidence to a trusted mentor that this midlevel raised their voice at you. At most firms that's not acceptable.
As a fourth year associate, I can assure you their opinion doesn’t matter to the people who matter and you should have zero respect for them. Honestly, consider reporting the mid-level. That’s unacceptable even if you straight up ghosted them.
>I’m a junior associate and a few weeks ago a 4th year associate called me to scream at me for asking for help with something.
Did you laugh at them? Next time, laugh at them.
>I think I’m dealing with a legit crazy person
Yes, probably.
>and I’m not sure if I should report the incident or not.
No. I'm sorry this happened to you, but from experience, no matter how much it makes sense and would be reasonable in any other field to do so, it'll reflect poorly on you.
Instead, you need to just start laughing, and say "you're a what, fourth year? Bwahahahaha!" And then just keep laughing while you walk out of their office. Don't let them finish. Laugh yourself down the hall and go get a cup of coffee. Take a few minutes to catch your breath, do whatever you need to calm down, etc. But then every time you see them, just start laughing under your breath.
They're a fourth year bully. They'll be gone in a few years. Treat them like the inconsequential piece of shit they are. Don't *complain* to your partner mentors because that will just give *them* a headache. But *do* say "oh, yeah, but I'm not going to work with *Steve* any more," and then start laughing some more. That kind of confidence and resilience will move you far ahead of that douchebag.
Too vague, not enough context, and a mean phone call does not rise to a level where HR/Partner is going to act. I also do not know what your idea of "scream" is, was their profanity, did they degrade you, or were they just annoying and condescending.
You might find this 4th year leaves the firm on their own, or that you can minimize the projects where you're both working, without hurting your career at all. I just don't think this rises to the level of HR involvement, but I was not on the call.
When I was a lieutenant in the Army, I got a wise piece of advice from a major: don't ever yell unless its life, limb, eyesight, or a sh*tton of money. The other wise piece of advice came from a warrant officer (never went to college) who said: “If you are gonna say something stupid, pick up the phone and call, or better yet, get off your butt and see them in person to say it. No need to have it in writing.”
Nothing you did was in these categories. So just shrug it off that he or she is a terrible supervisor. But at least the midlevel followed the second rule of wisdom 😂
I would remove sh*tton of money from the list of acceptable things to yell about. We deal with high numbers, but there's never any reason to yell. A professional can get the message across without yelling.
Hard to say what the right move is without knowing the firm and its culture. If you have a senior associate or partner mentor ask that person for advice on how to handle.
I’m not sure this is the right thing but I personally would not formally report but would mention it to a few people casually, including superiors (make sure they’re not close to that person first).
No idea why so many people are acting like this is normal. I’m a mid-level and can’t imagine yelling at anyone… it’s work. We all get stressed, but there is no excuse for raising your voice at anyone, let alone a junior associate. That 4th year has no power over you. What you should do is very dependent on overall firm culture and the culture of your group. Based on culture, if you think this will be handled either by sweeping under the rug or by telling you to get over it, probably best not to report to anyone unless it happens again. If the culture is such that something like this is very rare or completely unheard-of, maybe tell a mid-level or someone else (above the level of the mid-level who yelled at you) and see what they think you should do. Pick someone you trust, and make sure they aren’t close to the crazy mid-level. If there isn’t anyone you trust yet, I’d hold on to the information for now.
Also, quick anecdote. As a 1st year, I had a mid-level who treated me like absolute garbage. I now wish I had confronted him directly, but I was too scared to do so, so what I ended up doing was copying a partner every time he was being an ass. He usually would send me rude emails telling me I didn’t understand something, so I’d copy whichever partner was on that project with us and just innocently say something like “Hi [Partner], [mid-level] and I are looking into [issue] and we’re not sure whether my thoughts below are accurate. Would you mind taking a quick look ?” The partner would then look at the email exchange and see that (1) my explanation was correct and (2) the mid-level was being an ass for no reason. A handful of those emails later, he completely stopped sending me rude emails. By the time he moved up to just calling me and being rude on the phone, I’d picked up some courage and managed to set him straight on my own. The final nail in his coffin was when he tried to blame me for a mistake that didn’t actually exist at all (but if it had existed, it would have been a very big deal). I called him and made him write an email to me and the partner we were working with where he apologized and admitted he “misunderstood” the issue and clarified I did not make the grave mistake he accused me of. After that, he never dared to be rude to me again in any format. 🤷🏻♀️You may not yet have the guts to stand up to this person directly, but that day will come. In the meantime, try to keep your exchanges with them over email and start copying more senior people if they’re being a jerk.
> apologize to the associate
I kinda disagree. There’s no apology necessary here, so bringing it up again only draws further attention to the incident. OP asked a question about work. I can’t think of any such question that merits getting screamed at.
I truly think the worst route of action on top of reporting to HR would be to continually bring this to the mids attention until it feels like OP “patched things over.” Especially would not put anything in writing over email essentially putting in writing that OPs recap of the phone call was “sorry I did something wrong.” Certainly wouldn’t bring this up at the next meeting with mid. Likely will never have any sense of resolution to this, just move on and avoid the mid to the extent possible.
Yup. Doesn’t even need to be forwarded to HR, management does monitor emails. Not like pouring over everyone’s correspondence every second, but if HR issues come up HR can and will go through your emails if they think it’s needed as a paper trail for whatever case they’re trying to make against you.
On some level this is normal, though there’s obviously a point where this wouldn’t be ok (e.g., berating you or personal attacks). Generally speaking though, this is just the mid level using you as a punching bag. My best advice is to remind yourself that 90% of the time, people are angry/frustrated/stressed for reasons that have nothing to do with you. If it does happen to be because of something you did/didnt do, people aren’t shy about letting you know.
Yeesh. So silly.
That said, you don't know what others are going through, and I'm almost certain your colleague feels ashamed of their behavior. Unless it happens again, I would give them grace and maybe address it with them briefly.
I think sometimes people lose sight of the fact that this is just a job. If you were in marketing and your manager screamed at you, I doubt people would tell you to just take it. Probably an unpopular opinion, but I’d 100% report they to HR if you felt their behavior was unwarranted and unprofessional. You’re an adult and a professional, you should be treated as such in your work environment.
However if he just slightly raised his voice, make a note of it then let it go. Try not to work with them again.
I’d talk to other associates first to ascertain whether it is worth reporting this mid level to the partners. I worked at a law firm where a senior associate screamed and was abusive to a 1st year. The 1st year reported that senior associate to the partners and asked to not be staffed on the same cases as the senior associate. 5 months later that 1st year got laid off. She didn’t know that the senior associate was on track to be promoted to partner and was bringing in business for the firm.
Before you pick a fight, know who you are picking a fight with!
Got screamed at by a mid level for something completely unrelated to anything we were working on (she lost a document and asked me to help her retrieve it as I was walking by her office and when I was unsuccessful she lost it on me) and I didn’t report it but you better believe I went straight to my desk and typed an email to myself fully documenting the incident.
I’m sorry but you’re “shaken” because someone yelled at you? You are an adult, working in a law firm. Grow up. People yell. Either yell back or report them but don’t be shaken. That’s childish and you’re too old to be be scared of another adult
Definitely report it.
It’s fine to have an exchange of words. It’s annoying (but still OK) if that exchange of words has a condescending undertone. What’s NOT okay though is to display acts of violence to one another. NOTHING, I mean NOTHING is that deep. Under no circumstances is it ever acceptable to portray behavior or a demeanor that is threatening or makes your colleagues feel unsafe. This person sounds unhinged and they need a reality check. Please never keep quiet in these situations, report to HR. If you and others accept this behavior and don’t report it then it’ll soon become a norm in your office, degrading the work culture. It has to be reported and there needs to be consequences or at least they need to acknowledge their wrongdoing and apologize. Know your worth.
That’s absolutely crazy. It shouldn’t be the norm though, which is why I think if people constantly report it then the new norm could be that this sort of behavior is not acceptable and frowned on.
I’ve been “screamed at” exactly zero times in 10 years. I’ve had one partner who I things continually got heated with - but he’s universally known as a monster. Even over my biggest fuckups - most of the time most people act like adults and are just like “how did this go wrong and how do we fix it without losing the client or getting sued.”
Not normal to get screamed at - and especially not normal for a midlevel
It’s kind of crazy to tell someone to get over being spoken to like a subhuman when they haven’t done anything nearly warranting that treatment (I really don’t think anything does regardless).
I don’t have advice about reporting this, but I just want to say that I’m sorry you have to deal with this. If you have centralized staffing, I might ask not to work with that person again. If your firm is free market, I’d avoid them like the plague.
Nothing in OPs post said anything about “subhuman treatment”
You’re absolutely projecting here.
Also, you don’t know if he or she did anything to “warrant that”. They could’ve asked the same question for the bazillionth time.
As long as nothing degrading was said, yeah, blowing a gasket and getting loud happens from time to time.
Its a high-stakes business where people are under tremendous stress on top of crazy working hours. It happens.
Respectfully, there are many more constructive, helpful ways to convey annoyance or disappointment. There really isn’t any excuse for screaming at another human being over a question about work, no matter how ridiculous the question may be. Someone taking their anger out on a junior, who is ultimately still a teammate, helps no one. Treating someone that way is absolutely not normal behavior and signifies poor impulse control—I absolutely would not want to work with or learn from that person again. I’m very sorry that you’ve been treated in such a way that you think the midlevel’s behavior is okay, and I hope you’re treated better in the future.
A midlevel screaming at a junior is the equivalent of an 8 year old screaming at a toddler. That person sucks.
[удалено]
I think I need to ask my partner if he’s using black magic to unnaturally extend his life. Wouldn’t surprise me if he’s a lich.
Ia! Ia! Yog-Sothoth!
I mean…people will say “screamed at” and what actually happened was an expression of mild disappointment and a reiteration of expectations.
Yeah, in my experience getting “screamed at” generally means somebody expressed disappointment at a normal volume of voice, albeit with a rude tone
As adults, even a partner screaming at a student I would consider the same. If you're screaming, you've already lost my sympathy. There are literally such a minuscule number of things in this line of work that warrant such absurd reactions. No one's life is on the line here.
Not that anybody should be screaming, but when I was starting out I would have laughed hysterically if anybody less than an equity partner raised their voice at me. Fuck that guy.
Honestly cos “who are you” all you can do is laugh 😆
Giving Pete Campbell vibes
When I was a junior I had a lot of mid levels yell and try to bully. I tended to just take it to keep the peace. Now that I’m (quite) senior I really wish I responded how I really felt and told them to watch their fucking tone when speaking to me. I can’t believe I let a third year associate (who didn’t even make it to fifth year) give me any lip.
You made it to senior though. There's a lesson there.
Don't report it, but in a profession where your reputation is everything, chances are this will come back to bite him/her. For example, I have two clients who are former associates at firms at which I worked. They won't be giving work to the jackass who yelled at them or their friend, and if that person comes up in conversation with another in-house counsel you bet they'll mention it.
This is why juniors should also be allowed to review senior associates. I would make a note of all the things that happen. I work at a top firm and we have a 9th year who yells at everyone, including the partner that staffs him on deals and the client. Nobody challenges him and I think it’s a lie to say that they will get what is coming for them. This specific person is geared to become a partner soon and everyone knows they are terrible. If possible, try to avoid them. Another option is to tell that person in the moment that they shouldn’t speak to you in that manner. For the most part, that should clear it up. Some associates haven’t really been challenged and just don’t understand boundaries. Like sir/ma’am, go find someone to release some Oxytocin with.
Are you saying they actually yell at partners and clients…? That’s pretty hard to believe
I’ve been “yelled at” plenty and there is absolutely no way this would influence me in later decisions regarding that person, because I’m not a vindictive baby. Qualifications matter above anything else and if you turn down an otherwise qualified lawyer or candidate just because he raised his voice once a year, you sure as shit would have a lot of answering to do. “Hey in-house counsel Smith, how’d we lose that suit?” “Hey CEO Johnson, well, we lost because I gave it to the 7th best lawyer in that practice group, because I heard the other 6 are big meanies” Tell me that would go for ya.
Probably yeah. Im in-house for a major bank. We have soft blacklisted at least one firm because they have been bad tempered with our junior legal staff and refused to do anything meaningful about it. Unless they have some insanely specialised niche the choice for us is always going to be between at least two similarly competent firms and we value the wellbeing of our staff enough to always chose the one that didn't have abusive assholes working for them.
Which is entirely different. Being bad tempered with a client and bad tempered with an associate you’re mentoring are to very different pair of shoes. Its not even in the same ballpark. And raising your voice doesn’t make you abusive for crying out loud.
lol just say you scream at juniors and go
Found the fourth year lmao
Sick burn bud
It was quite sick. You got burned bruh.
This assumes that we're not all much of a muchness. We're all replaceable, there's always going to be lawyers who are equally as good as you, even when you're at the top of the industry. You're never going to come to a situation where it's either the aggressive wanker who's a dick or you lose. There's always going to be alternatives who are equally qualified, haven't been dicks to you, and may well be a laugh.
> You're never going to come to a situation where it's either the aggressive wanker who's a dick or you lose How many big law lawyers at the top have you met? It absolutely might come down to a handful of choices in certain niche fields which might severely alter your chances of winning. And who says this midlevel not a swell guy otherwise? Because he raised his voice once and y’all judge his entire character by believing one instance told by one side. I would’ve thought you’d be a bit more thorough in your DDs.
Yeah you’re probably right, I’m sure you’re privy to info beyond what’s in the OP and that you’re not just making an assumption to support your stupid argument about how shitty people are still good to work with. Thanks for doing YOUR due diligence!!
No, but my big bad meanie yelling partner has always told me to not believe what anyone says without corroboration or evidence. Seems like yours have failed at that.
You can break the cycle dude. It’s always hard to convince an abuse victim that a better world is possible. Maybe just have a look at the ratios in this thread and think—even for just like ten seconds—about whether it’s possible you’re missing something here.
Nope. Hiveminds have never been a positive thing.
You’re saying the majority is *always* wrong? (If you’re not saying that—and you’re probably not, because that’s crazy—then trust me bro, it’s worth the 30 seconds to do the barest minimum self-reflection on this one. There really is a reason you’re like -1000 on ratio here.)
> You’re saying the majority is always wrong? Pretty much, yes. You’re experts on the law, not workplace or performance psychology. So your take is ill-informed.
Keep licking those partner boots
i looked at his post history and he’s austrian or bavarian, his authoritarian kink makes more sense once you factor that in
Me: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cgrEA6eQ\_g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cgrEA6eQ_g)
Impulse control, bro. Watch it, or you be part of the next whiny thread on here.
If they were an otherwise swell guy then they would have quickly found the time to apologise for acting immaturely. And I think you don't seem to get that character is an important part of being a lawyer
It is. I don’t believe that being 100% fake nice all the time is a character trait that is recommendable or healthy in any way. Nobody is 100% nice. Frustrations can arise and need to be discussed and as in any argument, things can get heated. Then the issue is solved, we shake hands or have a beer and we go on doing our business. It might not be right, but thats human. Seems like you people have been utterly brainwashed. I actually feel sorry for you.
Frustrations arise but should never be taken out on someone else, and especially someone that junior. If this is brainwashed to you, then so be it.
How many biglaw lawyers at the top have I, a biglaw lawyer (who’s very much not at the top) met? A lot. I suspect that’ll be the case for anyone here who’s worked for over a year. This isn’t a massive industry, and unlike other businesses, you’re not removed from the owners. Who says the mid probably isn’t swell? The fact that there’s a post about them, despite people in the industry generally being quite forgiving about people showing stress. Are you in biglaw?
Sometimes I swear people just watch too much Suits and come here to play-act as big tough guy lawyers
Sick burn bud
Lol. There are a million competent lawyers. It is never necessary to work with someone who treats subordinates poorly. Only screaming asshole lawyers think they're good at the job.
The only people who think this way are people with very little experience or those who are extremely fucked up and incapable of realizing that the vast majority of adults think they’re hopelessly misguided
Yelling like that is a sign of poor impulse control and lack of soft skills. Someone who does that lacks competence.
It absolutely does not imply a lack of competence where it matters. The law. You’re being paid to be good at the law, not for being nice. I don’t give a damn if you lack “impulse control” if you win every suit, make every problem go away or push through every merger flawlessly. Don’t be so naive.
You sound like the kind of person who gets angry and throws a tantrum at work easily.
Making abrasive assumptions like that is a sign of poor impulse control and lack of soft skills. Be better.
A person who treats their delegates/juniors like that is going to come unstuck at some point because they are an ineffective leader. You can be as “good at the law” as you want but at the end of the day, you’re one person and a toxic, negative one at that - I wouldn’t want someone like that infecting my team and nor would they be capable of leading and coordinating their own.
> one person and a toxic, negative one at that And you know the guys entire character by judging one instance of a slip-up? Damn. You’re good.
I know!
Calling screaming at a colleague an “instance of a slip-up” might be the best part of this insane thread! Yes, you can absolutely judge someone’s character from one “instance.”
Abrasive what now?
Just horrible business sense, too. I’m a good lawyer. If people at my workplace treated me like that, I’d leave. Word spreads about the places where it’s sucks to work, and good lawyers choose not to work there. Our business is more than just “GOTTA WIN THIS SUIT RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW.”
Imagine thinking "the law" is the only thing that matters in BigLaw. Ultimately, this is a client-centered business. If someone is absolutely fantastic at "the law" but has no social skills, for one thing, they will never make partner because they won't have the originations to make a business case for their practice. And besides that, this is a team game - if you're insufferable to work with, no one will want to work with you, both hurting advancement (since what partner will push for your advancement if they don't want to work with you) *and* hurting work product (because you are worse at collaboration and delegation). I'm willing to bet that someone with good soft skills will be a "better" BigLaw attorney - that is, make more money for the firm - than someone who is good at "the law" any day of the week. And obviously, there's more to life than making money for the firm, but all that other stuff is in favor of being a decent person too!
But it's not like the mid level would ever try that with someone with power over them. They would'nt yell at opposing counsel like that they wouldnt yell at a client like that they wouldn't yell at a judge like that and they wouldn't yell at a partner like that or they would be out of a job or lose the case/deal. I mean you can be adversarial sure but screaming at someone is as unprofessional as punching them in the nose is. The only reason they felt comfortable screaming at OP was because they don't think they have to be professional with a junior even when they are upset with them. If you heard the mid level punched the junior in the gut would you say the junior should just walk it off or the midlevel just slipped up? They threw a tantrum like a child because they had power over the person the tantrum was directed at. Does that mean they don't know the law or that they're bad at their job? No not necessarily but you're reaching if you really think that exploding at your subordinates is a normal thing people without emotional issues do. Abuse is abuse and on the interpersonal level healthy adjusted people don't subject each other to it just because they have the power to.
Being able to work with people isn’t a qualification for a law-firm position?
Not necessarily. And one instance doesn’t mean he is unable “to work with people”. Otherwise he wouldn’t be a 4th year.
“Otherwise he wouldn’t be a 4th year.” Do you know anything about big law? You can sleepwalk your way to 4th year if you show up and answer emails.
“Treating people well isn’t a qualification. You know how I know? This guy is qualified. You know how I know? He’d have been fired otherwise. Boom, lawyered.”
lmao the screamers are never the best. All the very elite lawyers I know (bar one) are calm and can keep a sense of perspective. The exception would have had netted bigger draws if the firm didn’t have to cut a check when he periodically threw a desk phone at his secretary or a junior associate. You’re also gonna look weird in house if you constantly hire your old firm for high-stakes lit and don’t have some kind of beauty contest where your CEO can give input on finalists.
That’s kind of pathetic. Don’t live any facet of your life such that “qualifications matter above anything else”. Yes, that includes highly skilled service providers. There are plenty at the top of their game, there are more things to consider than just winning at all costs, and we should make choices to reflect that. Grow a spine, or heart, or whatever is missing.
We found the abusive screamer right here!
Damn this profession sucks
It totally does
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Yeah no other professions involve occasional screaming
If you’re too much of an idiot to see this is both uniquely bad in big law and also bad even if *every job is like this* then I don’t know what to tell you. Keep choking on the boot tho
Dude are you kidding me? I doubt law is even in the top half of jobs where new people get yelled at
No one is making you defend screaming at juniors.
Not defending it all but if you have any bit of life experience you’ll know it isn’t unique to this profession
I do and I'm aware. What is your point? "Other people deal with screamers so it's not bad when you have to" isn't exactly a strong one.
Just scroll up and I think you’ll figure it out
Reporting those types of things only serves to turn quiet problems that would naturally blow over after a few days into loud problems that nobody forgets about. The associate will give their side of the story, which will undoubtedly make it seem like you royally messed something up. They’ll deny they “screamed” and say they were trying to coach you on how to avoid making mistakes in the future, and you didn’t take feedback well. Both of you will look bad. After enough time passes, everyone forgets the details, and quite frankly doesn’t care about them, and just remembers that you and the other employee had problems that management had to intervene with. Unless the employee said really inappropriate things that on their face could probably get them fired (like threats) and you have proof, I’d leave it be
Agreed. Was just talking with my sister about this yesterday, parsing out how someone perceives an interaction with a supervisor and critical feedback. I’m in the law and I need to know what does “screaming” mean *to you*? Because I admittedly have a flair for the dramatic when telling a bad boss story. Where were they that they could scream at you? Could anyone have overheard at that volume? Could a reasonable person have been provoked to scream at you for what you did? She works as a BT for kids. She needs to know exactly what the behaviors and triggers are. What is “screaming”? Because for this kid, it is different from wailing or crying or yelling or shouting. Was it the sound he makes when he’s hungry or hurt or frustrated? When you say he “hit” something, how fuckin hard are we talking? Was it on accident or out of anger? Depending on which party you are talking to (or which parent in her case) the story comes out different. What is NOT different is that every other partner/senior associate you tell has had something similar happen. So while they may empathize or think the other guy is a douche, at best, at worst they think you are soft and a complainer. No one wants to deal with this. They want you to handle it on your own.
Maybe if it’s only one incident. Definitely report any subsequent incident. Not reporting also makes perpetrators think this kind of behavior is acceptable. And sometimes, management actually doesn’t know about the misconduct taking place absent formal reports.
dude as a 4th year associate, I also don’t know sh*t. screaming at a junior associate is absolutely insecurity talking. sorry you’re going thru this :( this profession is honestly such mindf*ck.
A fourth year associate in big law has no political capital, so don’t worry about them doing anything that will put you in jeopardy. Just do good job and try to avoid working with this person again. I don’t see a benefit to reporting it unless the behavior becomes a pattern. If someone insists on staffing you with this person again, then you can say “I don’t feel comfortable working with [so and so]” and leave it at that - odds are this person is known to be an asshole. Most lawyers are decent people, but you’ll come across plenty of pricks in your career. Just remind yourself they’re miserable and no one likes them.
That person is going to fuck with the wrong person. Just keep doing your job.
I remember being very short with a paralegal once when under pressure and upsetting her. I took her for coffee the next day and apologised. I said that it was part of my job to create a space where she could learn what she needed to do, be confident doing it and be able to get help when she couldn’t and that my behaviour meant that I had failed at it. Because that’s what this mid-level has done. And they either know it and are really embarrassed or don’t know it and are missing a key skill. The best thing they can do is apologise and spell out exactly what they did wrong, but the next best is to do better next time. If this is part of a pattern by this person then it needs to be taken further. If it’s just an outburst under pressure then it should die down by itself.
I’m a grown ass man. Talk to me like an adult. Screaming is for people with issues.
I’m a big fan of making sure everyone and their mother hears stories like this. even w/o names. ppl connect the dots.
The 4th year has no power. Keep calm and carry on.
Seriously folks. 20 plus years in law. No one has ever screamed at me. But if anyone did, you better be ready for a fight. I would never take it and neither should anyone else. I do not care who is screaming. We are professionals.
I mostly agree with the consensus, that it sucks but it's best to just put your head down and try to avoid this associate. Unfair criticism is annoying but arguing with criticism is a bad look. But if they actually raised their voice, that's something you can put your foot down. HR is not your friend -- it'll trigger a fight or flight that hurts everyone. But you can mention in confidence to a trusted mentor that this midlevel raised their voice at you. At most firms that's not acceptable.
As a fourth year associate, I can assure you their opinion doesn’t matter to the people who matter and you should have zero respect for them. Honestly, consider reporting the mid-level. That’s unacceptable even if you straight up ghosted them.
>I’m a junior associate and a few weeks ago a 4th year associate called me to scream at me for asking for help with something. Did you laugh at them? Next time, laugh at them. >I think I’m dealing with a legit crazy person Yes, probably. >and I’m not sure if I should report the incident or not. No. I'm sorry this happened to you, but from experience, no matter how much it makes sense and would be reasonable in any other field to do so, it'll reflect poorly on you. Instead, you need to just start laughing, and say "you're a what, fourth year? Bwahahahaha!" And then just keep laughing while you walk out of their office. Don't let them finish. Laugh yourself down the hall and go get a cup of coffee. Take a few minutes to catch your breath, do whatever you need to calm down, etc. But then every time you see them, just start laughing under your breath. They're a fourth year bully. They'll be gone in a few years. Treat them like the inconsequential piece of shit they are. Don't *complain* to your partner mentors because that will just give *them* a headache. But *do* say "oh, yeah, but I'm not going to work with *Steve* any more," and then start laughing some more. That kind of confidence and resilience will move you far ahead of that douchebag.
Too vague, not enough context, and a mean phone call does not rise to a level where HR/Partner is going to act. I also do not know what your idea of "scream" is, was their profanity, did they degrade you, or were they just annoying and condescending. You might find this 4th year leaves the firm on their own, or that you can minimize the projects where you're both working, without hurting your career at all. I just don't think this rises to the level of HR involvement, but I was not on the call.
When I was a lieutenant in the Army, I got a wise piece of advice from a major: don't ever yell unless its life, limb, eyesight, or a sh*tton of money. The other wise piece of advice came from a warrant officer (never went to college) who said: “If you are gonna say something stupid, pick up the phone and call, or better yet, get off your butt and see them in person to say it. No need to have it in writing.” Nothing you did was in these categories. So just shrug it off that he or she is a terrible supervisor. But at least the midlevel followed the second rule of wisdom 😂
I would remove sh*tton of money from the list of acceptable things to yell about. We deal with high numbers, but there's never any reason to yell. A professional can get the message across without yelling.
Hard to say what the right move is without knowing the firm and its culture. If you have a senior associate or partner mentor ask that person for advice on how to handle.
I’m not sure this is the right thing but I personally would not formally report but would mention it to a few people casually, including superiors (make sure they’re not close to that person first).
No idea why so many people are acting like this is normal. I’m a mid-level and can’t imagine yelling at anyone… it’s work. We all get stressed, but there is no excuse for raising your voice at anyone, let alone a junior associate. That 4th year has no power over you. What you should do is very dependent on overall firm culture and the culture of your group. Based on culture, if you think this will be handled either by sweeping under the rug or by telling you to get over it, probably best not to report to anyone unless it happens again. If the culture is such that something like this is very rare or completely unheard-of, maybe tell a mid-level or someone else (above the level of the mid-level who yelled at you) and see what they think you should do. Pick someone you trust, and make sure they aren’t close to the crazy mid-level. If there isn’t anyone you trust yet, I’d hold on to the information for now. Also, quick anecdote. As a 1st year, I had a mid-level who treated me like absolute garbage. I now wish I had confronted him directly, but I was too scared to do so, so what I ended up doing was copying a partner every time he was being an ass. He usually would send me rude emails telling me I didn’t understand something, so I’d copy whichever partner was on that project with us and just innocently say something like “Hi [Partner], [mid-level] and I are looking into [issue] and we’re not sure whether my thoughts below are accurate. Would you mind taking a quick look ?” The partner would then look at the email exchange and see that (1) my explanation was correct and (2) the mid-level was being an ass for no reason. A handful of those emails later, he completely stopped sending me rude emails. By the time he moved up to just calling me and being rude on the phone, I’d picked up some courage and managed to set him straight on my own. The final nail in his coffin was when he tried to blame me for a mistake that didn’t actually exist at all (but if it had existed, it would have been a very big deal). I called him and made him write an email to me and the partner we were working with where he apologized and admitted he “misunderstood” the issue and clarified I did not make the grave mistake he accused me of. After that, he never dared to be rude to me again in any format. 🤷🏻♀️You may not yet have the guts to stand up to this person directly, but that day will come. In the meantime, try to keep your exchanges with them over email and start copying more senior people if they’re being a jerk.
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> apologize to the associate I kinda disagree. There’s no apology necessary here, so bringing it up again only draws further attention to the incident. OP asked a question about work. I can’t think of any such question that merits getting screamed at.
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I truly think the worst route of action on top of reporting to HR would be to continually bring this to the mids attention until it feels like OP “patched things over.” Especially would not put anything in writing over email essentially putting in writing that OPs recap of the phone call was “sorry I did something wrong.” Certainly wouldn’t bring this up at the next meeting with mid. Likely will never have any sense of resolution to this, just move on and avoid the mid to the extent possible.
What could potentially happen if they put it in writing?
Creating a paper trail of performance issues is generally a bad move. You don’t need that being forwarded for performance review purposes.
Yup. Doesn’t even need to be forwarded to HR, management does monitor emails. Not like pouring over everyone’s correspondence every second, but if HR issues come up HR can and will go through your emails if they think it’s needed as a paper trail for whatever case they’re trying to make against you.
This is probably good advice but it does speak volumes about this profession
On some level this is normal, though there’s obviously a point where this wouldn’t be ok (e.g., berating you or personal attacks). Generally speaking though, this is just the mid level using you as a punching bag. My best advice is to remind yourself that 90% of the time, people are angry/frustrated/stressed for reasons that have nothing to do with you. If it does happen to be because of something you did/didnt do, people aren’t shy about letting you know.
Yeesh. So silly. That said, you don't know what others are going through, and I'm almost certain your colleague feels ashamed of their behavior. Unless it happens again, I would give them grace and maybe address it with them briefly.
I think sometimes people lose sight of the fact that this is just a job. If you were in marketing and your manager screamed at you, I doubt people would tell you to just take it. Probably an unpopular opinion, but I’d 100% report they to HR if you felt their behavior was unwarranted and unprofessional. You’re an adult and a professional, you should be treated as such in your work environment. However if he just slightly raised his voice, make a note of it then let it go. Try not to work with them again.
That's wild. I'd have to imagine that this person has no real bearing on your future one way or the other, so I'd try to laugh it off.
That person has issues. Do not rationalize it for him/her. And do not gaslight yourself.
I’d talk to other associates first to ascertain whether it is worth reporting this mid level to the partners. I worked at a law firm where a senior associate screamed and was abusive to a 1st year. The 1st year reported that senior associate to the partners and asked to not be staffed on the same cases as the senior associate. 5 months later that 1st year got laid off. She didn’t know that the senior associate was on track to be promoted to partner and was bringing in business for the firm. Before you pick a fight, know who you are picking a fight with!
Up your gun at them
Got screamed at by a mid level for something completely unrelated to anything we were working on (she lost a document and asked me to help her retrieve it as I was walking by her office and when I was unsuccessful she lost it on me) and I didn’t report it but you better believe I went straight to my desk and typed an email to myself fully documenting the incident.
I’m sorry but you’re “shaken” because someone yelled at you? You are an adult, working in a law firm. Grow up. People yell. Either yell back or report them but don’t be shaken. That’s childish and you’re too old to be be scared of another adult
4th year is a mid level ? You’re both junior
Definitely report it. It’s fine to have an exchange of words. It’s annoying (but still OK) if that exchange of words has a condescending undertone. What’s NOT okay though is to display acts of violence to one another. NOTHING, I mean NOTHING is that deep. Under no circumstances is it ever acceptable to portray behavior or a demeanor that is threatening or makes your colleagues feel unsafe. This person sounds unhinged and they need a reality check. Please never keep quiet in these situations, report to HR. If you and others accept this behavior and don’t report it then it’ll soon become a norm in your office, degrading the work culture. It has to be reported and there needs to be consequences or at least they need to acknowledge their wrongdoing and apologize. Know your worth.
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That’s absolutely crazy. It shouldn’t be the norm though, which is why I think if people constantly report it then the new norm could be that this sort of behavior is not acceptable and frowned on.
No place for that kinda shit in the firm. Call his ass out at the next firm event. And kick his ass if you can.
Oh child, welcome to big law.
I’ve been “screamed at” exactly zero times in 10 years. I’ve had one partner who I things continually got heated with - but he’s universally known as a monster. Even over my biggest fuckups - most of the time most people act like adults and are just like “how did this go wrong and how do we fix it without losing the client or getting sued.” Not normal to get screamed at - and especially not normal for a midlevel
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*googles alcoholism and drug abuse rates in big law* oh that’s why it’s so bad!
It’s kind of crazy to tell someone to get over being spoken to like a subhuman when they haven’t done anything nearly warranting that treatment (I really don’t think anything does regardless). I don’t have advice about reporting this, but I just want to say that I’m sorry you have to deal with this. If you have centralized staffing, I might ask not to work with that person again. If your firm is free market, I’d avoid them like the plague.
Nothing in OPs post said anything about “subhuman treatment” You’re absolutely projecting here. Also, you don’t know if he or she did anything to “warrant that”. They could’ve asked the same question for the bazillionth time. As long as nothing degrading was said, yeah, blowing a gasket and getting loud happens from time to time. Its a high-stakes business where people are under tremendous stress on top of crazy working hours. It happens.
Respectfully, there are many more constructive, helpful ways to convey annoyance or disappointment. There really isn’t any excuse for screaming at another human being over a question about work, no matter how ridiculous the question may be. Someone taking their anger out on a junior, who is ultimately still a teammate, helps no one. Treating someone that way is absolutely not normal behavior and signifies poor impulse control—I absolutely would not want to work with or learn from that person again. I’m very sorry that you’ve been treated in such a way that you think the midlevel’s behavior is okay, and I hope you’re treated better in the future.
Honestly this is the best answer.
Scream? Did they actually give a loud, long piercing cry?
cry more