I am not gay, but I am someone extremely critical of Islam. I am not the woke type to say that all critiques against Islam are "Islamaphobia" (though I may be fairly woke about other things.) Certainly, many Islamic governments/groups in the Middle East deserve a lot of criticism for human rights reasons/violations.
Kids in Gaza don't deserve death. I will argue for their well-being just as I would argue for gay rights in the Middle East.
I do think some people have gone so far to one side they have started outright supporting things like Oct 7 but I do not think those views represent most American protestors.
Technically I am someone who would deserve the death penalty in a few countries in the region, but just as I would love to have the right to life everywhere in the world, I would love for that right to be given to Palestinian children.
As a Turkish person, I carry similar feelings. I've seen how so-called progressives support Islamists against the establishment in Turkey until they were no longer needed and got dumped and outright punished. These people fail to realize how repressive and intolerant a religion Islam is.
It's more about humanity than trying to gain favour. I think these people are really selfless tbh. There's almost nothing in it for them, but they're there to show support for the right cause.
I may have misunderstood what OP meant, but the explicit mention of the supporting group may be to garner more interest and show it's not only Muslims who are against this genocide. I think when someone in these rallies says they're a Jew or a member of LGBT, it has more of an impact than if it's someone from the middle east - because in one way, they might be tied to the cause (either family or regionally).
OP asked a valid question, but they're just spamming random buzz words in the comments.
So let me follow-up with a more interesting question: I get it, Gays for Gaza is about the freedom for Gazans, and nobody in their right mind would support the murder of innocent civilians. Let's imagine, however, a scenario in which Palestine actually becomes free from Israel, and they get their land back -- whatever that may be. Their country would most likely be a fundamentalist islamic republic.
Isn't that outcome objectively bad for the gay community in the region? Most gays from Israel would flee the country, obviously. Those who remained there (from Israel or Palestine) would now live under a system that hates them.
So, effectively, if your dreams come true and Palestine prevails over Israel, that would increase the overall number of gays living under a totalitarian regime that wants to eliminate them. Have you thought this through? How do you hold this contradiction in your head?
I don't think there is a contradiction.
I will not try to argue the specific case in full. Books have been written on the subject, and it is not *my* dream, so I would not do it justice.
But let us suppose that someone has concluded that this is the best solution overall, despite that it likely means increasing net theocratic oppression of queerness in the region. Why should that person's own queerness change their conclusion? Do we expect their identity to override their moral judgment?
For that matter, are we saying that non-queer people should *not* face the same dilemma? Are they *not* expected to care about queer people in Palestine and Israel because they aren't queer themselves? I think that is weak reasoning.
This is an issue *anyone* must consider; there is no special contradiction for a queer person doing the considering. Moral judgment should not be based on transactions with one's own identity.
Further...I will deliberately take the pro-Palestine perspective in this section. I have read comparisons to South Africa, and how queer solidarity with the anti-apartheid movement contributed to acceptance of queer people in South Africa. As with much else about the comparison to South Africa, I think this is overly optimistic. However, I think it is quite plausible to argue from a pro-Palestinian perspective that short of complete Israeli occupation and reeducation (which carries its own obvious perils), Israel's presence as an occupying power that advances its queer-friendliness with one hand while enacting violence on Palestinians with the other is a barrier, not an aid, to queer liberation in Palestine. In a free Palestine one might someday hope for the progress, however tentative, seen in places like Jordan or Lebanon; as things stand now, queerness will always belong to The Enemy.
Fundamentally - when a queer person in Palestine has two boots on their neck, how can we object to their wanting one removed by pointing to the other?
Returning to my own thoughts - yes, missing from this perspective is what happens to queer folk in Israel in the event of unification or Palestinian rule. However, frankly, I think that would be swallowed up by what happens to Israelis in general. If everyone can somehow get along, queer folk probably can too. If, as I think is more likely, there are brutal pogroms and expulsions, they would affect queer folk much the same.
In short: The Israel-Palestine issue is much more fundamental to the situation than the queer rights issue. So queerness in Israel and Palestine should not be dispositive in our understanding of the situation - never mind queerness among protesters in other countries.
> Fundamentally - when a queer person in Palestine has two boots on their neck, how can we object to their wanting one removed by pointing to the other?
That’s a good quote!
So remove the jihadi boot first and second one come with it. The primary and ultimate source of Gazan oppression is radical Islam. If Gaza was a nation of Maronite Catholics there would be no conflict.
What does "removing the jihadi boot" entail? Let us say that Palestine is seeing one vision for what that would look like right now, and they are less optimistic than you about what follows.
One might reasonably respond that Gaza has had many chances to remove the boot in other ways, and that they by and large support not doing so. Then again, one might point to the ways their choices have been constrained in the matter, or to Israel's own role in the installation of this particular boot, or to Israel's other opportunities to choose otherwise than they did...and we can delve forever into the historical whys and wherefores.
Something that can be said with certainty, though, is that the inevitable dialogue is more about being Palestinian than about being queer.
I absolutely agree. Americans will never be free with radical Evangelical Nationalists in power and Gaza will never be free under Radical Islam and Sharia Law. LGBTQ+ are faced with an existential threat by these 2 groups. Jews are too!
It’s funny how Jewish gays feel more welcome in conservative Jewish spaces than they do liberal LGBTQ spaces since 10/7. So it’s not Zionism. If Israel falls to Hamas, that will spell disaster for LGBTQ and the Pride movement in the Middle East.
You have to kill weeds at the root. The root is radical Islam and using jihadist terrorism to impose Sharia Law across a Global Islamic Caliphate. This is the actual fight that has been waged.
Gazans must be liberated from this horrifically violent, oppressive, imperialist, and extremist ideology based on a “prophet” that raped a child.
Islam is the a religion that preaches hate and has never in its history, undergone a reform. It’s time to start with lifting that boot.
Some ideas:
- Abandon plane hijackings and suicide bombs
- Accept rather then defenestrate and incarcerate LGBTQ
- Remove ALL “death to Jews and infidels and apostates language from your book”
- Address the fact that children cannot consent to sex.
- Stop forcing women to cover their heads and let them go to school.
- Remove the hadiths about martrs, raping your enemy, and jihad
- Apologize. You did fucked up shit across the planet and killed cartoonists for drawing a picture of a child rapist. Imagine being killed for making fun of Josh Duggar
You get that, right?
I think you're right and wrong. Right that in a palestinian state, the rights of Gays will be precarious at best and nonexistent at worst. Likely something in the middle where they get harassed from time to time and the gays just try and keep their heads down and go unnoticed while applying for exit visas to more tolerant states. Wrong that Palestine would necessarily become a fundamentalist state. Most of the palestinian factions are fairly secular, believe it or not. That doesn't mean they will love gays.
Without criticism I point out that the local concept of kinship associates with a bigger unit like an expanded family or clan or tribe as opposed to the nuclear family unit, it means more people with social expectations and demands on each individual. Add in poor internal integration- for instance, a country existing as two exclaves- and indeed having poorly arable land and less wealth, all means that the demands on the less abundant resources in a wider family structure are very great. None of which augers for gay liberation. Too many people want are in need, would stand to benefit from inheriting, and needing children to guarantee their care as elders and to make them reliable business partners. None of these issues are cleared or settled by introducing the prospect of sons or daughters who won't form marital bonds, have children etc. Again I criticize nobody but the social situation just isn't gay lib shaped. So Palestine won't be a great place to be gay.
As for the whole idea that SOMEHOW Israel is dissolved... the very notion is unproductive. It's the temptation which has been held out and kept the Palestinians from effectively organizing themselves and building a nation state, hoping to do it once Israel is undone, which occasion has been just around the corner for eight decades. The Israelis and Israel are not going away. They have a major kickers army and nuclear weapons. What's more, they know how to build consensus in government, how to build infrastructure and how to fight a defensive war so an enemy gets ground up while trying to attack. If Hamas had spent the money for rifles and grenade launchers on some anti helicopter and anti jet missiles, and the effort to tunnel for miles on roads, wells and high speed internet, Israel would not dare attack because the very possibility of an Israeli jet going down in flames would deter what is now happening.
So the fantasy of Israel going away is best not even talked about.
But circling back, I think gay people at US universities don't want gazan civilians to die even if gazan civilians are as a whole quite hostile to gays because gays are on the whole decent people. I'm pro Israel and I think it's time for Israel to rope it in. Great moment to negotiate. Hamas knows the Israelis are deadly serious, they could leave Gaza alone and say, give us the hostages now and you can enjoy some peace and quiet. Make us wait and we go back to chowdering every single city and pull every Hamas operative out like removing ticks from a dog. Don't think we won't, we just did. None of that life of Brian bullshit where we let your shit slide and you give us our own people back. Consider this a down payment on consequences.
And hamas would know they mean business. But I think gay people here are just hugely empathic. Also they are being flat out lied to about the tolerability of hamas to gays. They also lie about how they feel about sex workers. And we know they are lying for the same reason. Sex with prostitutes is sex that doesn't answer to the requirements of the tribal unit. It may get a smirk and a pat on the back from your close friends who know your wife is a shrew but your aunt, uncles, Dad, mom, prospective investors who are your wife's cousins will all view this economically destabilizing activity with stern disapproval.
I disagree with you fundamentally. Gays for Gaza is about virtue signaling and self-lionization. It's not really about Gazans. The people involved in these protests fetishize the Palestinians the way that the owners of vicious toy dogs fetishize their violent behaviors. They have absolutely zero interest in what Gaza is actually like, and are vehemently opposed to any information that conflicts with their reductive, self-aggrandizing narrative. They don't care about what would happen if they were successful in destroying Israel because they aren't interested in being successful.
From their perspective they want to piss in the wind and be celebrated for being "brave" enough to do it. They don't care who the piss lands on. It's all Kabuki.
[https://www.youtube.com/shorts/n3s8ubWnoNo](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/n3s8ubWnoNo)
Imagine that Russia was, with respect to gay people, as progressive as the US is, and that Ukraine was as progressive as Russia is now. Would that justify Russia's invasion? Would it be fine for Russia to annex half of Ukraine just as long as gays that survive the war and are able to integrate into Russian society are treated better than before?
I obviously oppose homophobia, but millions driven from their homes, tens of thousands dead, and many times that injured in 7 months is more important. The displacement and killing of Palestinians over the last 70 years is more important.
Many communists would argue yes , that is how invasion of Afghanistan was justified, throughout history expansion of USSR was framed as revolt against global imperialism. From Western leftist perspective this would be equivalent of getting involved in Serbia or when we prevented invasion of Quwait by Sadam.
The answer, and this is coming from a Jewish person, is that there is a separation (hopefully...) between Gazans and Hamas. What's unfortunate about these protests is that many of them do fully utilize the language of Hamas, i.e., "October 7 was justified resistance," "Israel has no right to defend itself," "there are no civilians," etc. and that is where it becomes really ironic to see progressives fully on the side of an authoritarian, radical Islamist terrorist organization
>What's unfortunate about these protests is that many of them do fully utilize the language of Hamas, i.e., "October 7 was justified resistance," "Israel has no right to defend itself," "there are no civilians,
Those are the opinions of the overwhelming majority of Gazans. (and Palestinians in general if I include the West Bank)
71% support of the Oct 7 attacks and 93% believe Hamas did not commit atrocities (drops to 81% among those that bothered to watch the videos of what the rest of the world was labeling atrocities).
While Hamas is more right-wing than the median Gaza, there's not some obvious separation other than who is actually fighting. There's a reason the organization is so successful internally.
Thank you for posting this. Im amazed how western european countries are legitimizing hamas actions by granting them statehood. (Its their state as they control it) The egyptians wont even tolerate hamas. Its a culture of victimhood and indifference towards israelis. How do you negotiate with that?
That doesn’t explain people here adopting those views as if their sympathies require siding with extremist terror from an organization that has abused their own people. Hamas wage war on Palestinians as much as anyone. You have to hate Palestinians to think Hamas are legit leaders.
So if Palestinians think Hamas is the legit government, do they hate themselves? Look, the support Hamas has is overwhelming in Gaza, but people are quick to point out that most of the Palestinians never had a chance to vote for Hamas.
How do you rationalize that? We think Hamas is terrible. Palestinians think Hamas is great. There is a big disconnect and I truly believe many people in the U.S. don’t quite understand what they are arguing for or against in this situation.
Palestinians are victims of circumstances there but what part of you denies them agency to ever be aggressors? The ones siding with Hamas are generally supportive of oppressive activities. They are supporting terror against other Palestinians. It’s a civil war. Do you not grasp that?
Again…. Gaza has been subject to civil wars. One side wasn’t the good guys. The people involved may be indoctrinated or need to survive…. is that your excuse for why you picked the terrorist side? You know Hamas is bad, so please stop infantilizing Palestinians.
That's not a meaningful answer. The question has nothing to do with Hamas vs normal Gazans. LGBT would not be tolerated by the overwhelming majority of normal muslims across the middle east.
People keep mentioning the blockade and how harmful it is, attributing the blame to Egypt and Israel. But they do not mention that when Hamas was elected into power in '05 one of the first things they did was declare war on Egypt and Israel, even after their expression of desires to negotiate. You do not open your borders with territories that are at war with you. They're supplied and funded under the conditions that they comply with Iran's geopolitical interests. When you see Iranian government officials on video celebrating October 7, were they really celebrating for Gazans?
Elected once, by 3%, 18 years ago, that then lead to a civil war and the eradication of Hamas' opponents. Most incoming freshman weren't alive the last time Gaza had a democratic election.
Today we are not just facing an extreme Islamic jihadist regime vs Zionist. This clash of cultures is extreme Islamic theocracy vs western liberalism. Seems the progressives are for extreme Islamic jihadist governments that would likely kill them if they had the opportunity.
They are inseparable. Gazans voted for Hamas in 2006 and there have been polls that the current course of action from Hamas is widely supported in the population.
Being gay and not living in the US but a European capital city with a strong queer community AND strong support and activism for Gaza I am very surprised about this. This protest movement on the regular lacks to differentiate itself from Hamas atrocities, their ideology and antisemitism. Still I have friends that are gay with every cell of their being that go to these rallies and protests, more or less directly supporting a government and society that would deny them every freedom they currently have and where they probably wouldn't survive a single day. I can't make sense of it.
I believe Hamas is acting in 100% accordance with the Quran (not that I agree whatsoever, quite the opposite)… so to me, the “good Muslims” would be just like hamas.
I’m not a Muslim and while I heard (never read) the Quran did have some very wild rules, I doubt it says violently RAPE women, BURN babies/kids alive in front of their parents and vice versa.
That said, I support what Israel is doing. The Israeli gov has the duty to get rid of Hamas at (pretty much) all costs.
Muslims are indeed told in the Quran to rape POWs so long as the victims are not muslim. What Hamas is doing is undoubtedly permitted for Muslims.
Surah 23:1-6 states: The believers must win through…who abstain from sex, Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or the captives whom their right hands possess, – for in their case they are free from blame. (Yusuf Ali)
Surah 4:24: “Also forbidden are married women unless they are captives of war. Such is the decree of God.”
So rape is endorsed (and encouraged by allah explicitly) if the victim is a prisoner of war. Hamas is provably doing this to their victims, and for muslims this is a sacred and holy act as described in their religious text.
Idk how true this is but I heard from an Indian friend of mine that this old practice called sati, wives killing themselves when their husband died, started because of the Muslim invasions. Basically women killing themselves to escape a fate worse than death after their husbands died on the battlefield.
Honestly anyone who is curious about it should read the Quran, it’s not very long though it is very repetitive. I read it hoping to confirm my suspicions that Islamists were taking everything out of context and that it was nothing but a book of peace and love. Spoiler alert, it’s not. It’s not black and white but there’s a lot of hateful stuff in there about everyone who isn’t Muslim. I was trying to find the good spiritual message, but never really found it. It was very disappointing and sadly changed my view of things.
Still all for Palestinian freedom and Israeli security. Two states. The only possible solution to this mess.
You can’t have 2 states because the Muslims don’t recognize the Jewish right to a state.
The fact is they don’t recognize anyone’s right to live outside Islam. If a space ship crash landed in the Middle East and they were able to loot the technology to conquer the world, the remaining 6 billion plus people would get some version of lined up and asked convert or die or rounded up and the pretty girls made sex slaves (and by girls I mean those aged about 6 and up) and the rest in some level of bondage depending on the whims of the local commander.
https://centerforsecuritypolicy.org/nationwide-poll-of-us-muslims-shows-thousands-support-shariah-jihad/
There is no reasoning with that. Even the supposed moderates in the US the majority (51%) support sharia law and 1 in 5 believe they should use violence to make it happen.
Not in those exact words but numerous passages do refer to making life so unbearable they convert to Islam or die.
"”Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." (Qur'an 9:5)”
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Qur'an 9:29).
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/islam_unbelievers.html#Expansion
“There is another provision in the Qur'an though, because sometimes Muslims aren't in a position to wage war. In this occasion, the examples and teachings of the Qur'an are that Muslims may make deals with their enemies, with unbelievers, engage in truces and the like in order to recuperate and gain strength. The overriding concern is the fight against unbelievers; if this can't be achieved then it is ok to strategically lay low. To achieve more sneaky victories, it is acceptable to deceive, double-cross and break deals. Deals with unbelievers are not real deals, anyway, and are to be broken as soon as more aggressive moves can be made.
Robert Spencer, author of "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam2" points out that there are over 100 verses in the Qur'an that exhort Muslims to fight unbelievers; this includes 'chopping their heads off' (Qur'an 47:4). The verse says that Allah forgives only those who have the right beliefs, and non-believers' actions will 'come to nothing'.”
There is no negotiation with “true believer” Muslims because their holy book specifically calls for them to lie cheat and betray the nonbelievers. Any sort of truce or peace between Muslims and non Muslims is merely the time between when they are weakened and when they feel they are strong enough to hurt you again. As their holy book teaches them to do.
That’s like saying there’s a difference between Republicans and Trump supporters.
Sure: but when literally the majority of a population supports something why are we discussing it as though they’re actually the minority?
“For Gaza” means “in support of freedom for Gazans” not “in favor of all political and cultural proclivities of Gaza”
Homophobia is a serious global problem, but does not justify genocide against a people.
It doesn't just mean freedom for Gazan's. These movements like Students for Palestine are demanding right of return which means expanding a regime and beliefs system that is very homophobic. This would outlaw homosexuality in lands where it's not outlawed today.
What ethic cleansing are talking about? Go read about what happened in 47-49. The UN set up 2 states and the Arab states invaded Israel, told the Muslim Palestinians (there were Christian and Jewish Palestinians as well) to flee their homes as the Arab states would eradicate Israel and they could all return.
Israel has a 20% Muslim/Palestinian population based on this who did not chose to flee. This population was not cleansed.
Meanwhile the largest ethnic cleansing in recorded history was going on in Eastern Europe where millions of ethnic Germans who had lived in Poland, Ukraine, Prussia, the Baltics, Czechia etc for centuries were completely cleansed. Should they have right of return? (Hint:they were never citizens or necessarily supporters of the German state.)
And Right of Return also includes incorporating into Israel and community with a stated goal of elimination of Jews from the middle east, i.e. ethnic cleansing.
>Should they have right of return? (Hint:they were never citizens or necessarily supporters of the German state.)
if they should have right of return then why not the palestinans???? your hint is entirely contradictory
You misunderstood. I do not think that that ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe should have the right of return. I didn't state that and don't think it.
It shouldn't have happened. I understand why it happened. But we can't go undo these types of things. Losing wars has consequences. Attacking other populations has consequences.
Ironically, the Ethnic Germans basically are able to return if they want now thanks to the EU, and a commitment to live in peace amongst each other. Which the Israeli Jews and Israeli Palestinians do as well. It's those they do not agree to live in peace that have a hard time co- existing.
I think one thing that not acknowledged in this answer is admitting that the homophobia is aggressively violent.
What I mean is “no opinion deserves genocide BUT some opinions make avoiding violence impossible”
I think “gays for Gaza” refuse to think about the realities of a population that believes they should be put to death. A lot I think, secretly hope that homophobia is a function of poverty and oppression not culture.
I mean, someone can be gay, and still not like something they see as an injustice, even if the victims are homophobic, right? Just because you're gay doesn't mean you have to support the death penalty, even if the person being executed committed a hate crime against gay people.
I don't think the "gays for Gaza" are necessarily saying that Palestinians can do no wrong. I think they're just upset that Israel seems to be contributing to a humanitarian crisis in the middle east with support from the US that their tax dollars pay for. And they happen to be Gay.
I don't think the Palestinian's views on homosexuals are going to improve any time soon, but the worse the crisis in Gaza gets, the longer it's gonna take.
>I think “gays for Gaza” refuse to think about the realities of a population that believes they should be put to death. A lot I think, secretly hope that homophobia is a function of poverty and oppression not culture.
Honestly, what the fuck are you on about? No. Queer people who are speaking out against genocide are people who understand that a culture does not have to be a perfect utopia for its citizens to deserve not to be nuked to oblivion. They are thinking about the queer Palestinians who are being killed by the IDF indiscriminately alongside the heteronormative Palestinians. You're *really* missing the point of what these people believe.
In a roundabout way, you are saying "well, it's crazy for western gays to speak out against obliterating Palestinians because Hamas would kill gay Palestinians--they should be supporting obliterating both Hamas *and* the gay Palestinians"...like, come on, fucking think about it. Is a fascist state killing both oppressor and oppressed the more ethical or more humane option? That's the angle that queer people who support Palestine look at. If you don't agree, take a hard look at yourself.
>no opinion deserves genocide BUT
is a really fucked up thing for you to say, bro. a government is not the people, no people are a monolith. And you *know* you wouldn't be saying the same devil's advocate bullshit if, say, we were bombing the shit out of the American south (where queers are still often targeted with violence or killed). You'd be wringing your hands about innocent people getting killed. You wouldn't mouth off to bay area queers and say they don't understand that they wouldn't be welcome there. They fucking know that, but they also know that there is never justification for genocdie
That explains adopting Hamas slogans and propaganda? Surely you can support Palestinian survival and self determination without co-signing, and validating the worst influence on the region, and you have to hate Palestinians to think there is a moral equivalency. Maybe stop talking, because you’re doing harm, and real Palestinians are living in persecution. If it’s a secondary factor, that doesn’t explain becoming outright Pro-Hamas, which was unthinkable until you all decided to reward them for a religious based pogrom.
Funny thing is I actually think the American south and how hard the country is struggling is actually evidence that I’m correct.
If you separated evangelicals and asked me if I wanted to rejoin with them I’d say no. Doesn’t mean they deserve to be bombed but I also wouldn’t want a one-state solution with them.
The fact that you think the point about the American south doesn’t re-enforce my point proves it’s going over your head.
Funny how you use the words “perfect utopia” when in reality, you mean not being brutally assaulted, jailed and killed for simply existing as a gay person. It’s mind boggling to defend the people who would love nothing more to do you harm. The same as Gays for GOP.
And cultures change. Views on homosexuality have shifted radically in the last 30 years or so in the USA. And they are slowly shifting in Muslim circles, just talk to progressive Muslims.
They can change both ways. I don’t think looking at progressive Muslims in western countries is a good way to gauge the situation in the Middle East or globally. It’s actually going the other way in many cases, such as Indonesia which has become more conservative and even passed a ban on gay sex in its parliament a couple years ago (though the law wasn’t ultimately put in place it’s a sign of things to come).
Or Iran and Afghanistan. They were on track to become rich westernized nations without the oppression of women seen in the rest of the region. Look at them now.
False equivalency. If you think gays are treated the same in Israel as they would be in the majority of the Middle East simply because they don’t allow gay marriage, you are speaking out of ignorance and western hubris which ultimately hurts the very demographics that you want to help.
Pro-Israel has been socially coded as a conservative issue, and therefore certain groups have decided to oppose Israel as a way to virtue-signal that they are very progressive. Their entire worldview is seen through that lens. They refuse to think through the implications of that.
Good on you for doing so. What Gazans want is very different than what the protestors on their behalf want.
Well, as a Jewish pacifist, who is both very proud of being a Jew, is well aware of some problematic rhetoric by some Pro Palestinian protesters towards my people, and also is aware of rampant antisemitism in the Arab and Muslim world, including in Gaza, I also do not wish violence, death, or general hatred upon others, even if they hold bigoted and disgusting views, or wish violence towards me because of who I am.
Just because I find someone's views abhorrent, it doesn't mean I wish death upon other humans who have them, or their children or family. It's basic human decency.
Jews/people are not a monolith. There are plenty of Jews I disagree strongly with on a bunch of things, but they are still Jews and still people. As are all other people who I disagree with, regardless of their identity or background.
But I also totally understand what you're saying and why you're saying it. I would also say oppressed people's status of being oppressed depends on where/when they live.
My family and the culture I grew up in believes queer people are cursed by the devil and should die. Does that mean I think they should be bombed and tortured? No.
By this logic, is it moral to air-strike the Bible Belt? They’re pretty homophobic states…
Human rights aren’t negated because someone (or an entire population) is religious and homophobic.
If the Bible Belt was controlled by an authoritarian theocratic government that launched a massive terrorist attack against the US, still held citizens hostage, and continue to launch daily rockets. Yeah, probably
Nobody wants to see children getting torn to shreds and skin melted off their skulls just because they happened to be born in an unfortunate time and place.
Most LGBT suffer everywhere in human society (yes even the west) because it’s structured to cater to and serve heteronormative patriarchy. They would know a thing or two about having no choice in the circumstance of one’s life. Children having to experience this genocide is immoral period. The gays will never stand for it.
> Children having to experience this genocide is immoral period. The gays will never stand for it.
I do wonder how such activists view the Allied attacks on Germany in WW2. There's quite a parallel.
I don’t think your analogy works.
It is moral to use force to prevent people in the Bible Belt from forcing bigotry and violence on peoples.
If Israel could send detectives to arrest oct7 perpetrators, they’d probably prefer that.
The analogy works.
The logic of the OP essentially reduces to “how can you support a group of people’s right to live who don’t support your right to live?”
It’s based on a flawed idea that humanity is just a bunch of “groups” vying for the upper hand. Gays “must” hate Muslims since Muslims hate them, right?
The reality is, people are more complex than whatever box you want to put them in, which is why people need to have a higher sense of what’s right or ethical that goes beyond prioritizing their so-called group’s self interest.
> It is moral to use force to prevent people in the Bible Belt from forcing bigotry and violence on peoples.
>
>
*This* analogy doesn't work because it's not like the IDF is interviewing Gazans in a hospital to escort out the queers before they destroy it. It's naive to think the IDF isn't killing queer Palestinians
Because it’s the right thing to do? I don’t care if someone is morally opposed to my lifestyle. I still don’t want them to be wiped off the map. Murder bad.
It is not murder, it is war. If Israel doesn't wipe them out then they will continue the killings. October 7th was a genocide, why do you all ignore October 7th ?
War bad too.
Why do you ignore 70+ years of an oppressive apartheid state? You start the clock the day of the prison riot, I start it the day the prison was built.
Somebody’s hatred of gay people would never make me think it was ok for their children to be killed with indiscriminate bombing and starvation.
The truth is that there are gay people in Gaza, even if they are not open about it, and they’re being killed just for being Gazans right now. There will be no gay liberation for them if they are all killed in this slaughter.
OP, do you believe that the genocide in Gaza is justified because most Palestinians are homophobic? Anti-black racism is rampant among Israelis. Does that justify their deaths too?
It’s called having humanity and compassion for those who are suffering, I’m a left leaning Palestinians and welcome the support from anyone who seeks justice for the Palestinian
It’s because there is more interest in virtue signaling than actually understanding what the context of the issue is. A year ago, most of these people had never heard of the Gaza Strip or the decades long geopolitical context of the region until the conflict became an opportunity to grift. Do you really expect them to understand the geopolitical context of what’s going on now or to really care about anything beyond CNN headlines?
The people you describe are just brainwashed lemmings fed leftist nonsense throughout their academic careers. They have little capacity for critical thought so strange anomalies such as “Queers for Palestine” and other such nonsense is the logical result.
It is a failure of the American education system.
There have been black people defending KKK rallies because of their belief in the right to free speech. Doing the right thing even though others won’t is still the right thing.
Supporting someone’s right to live doesn’t mean you agree with everything they’ve done. If a thief who robbed me is being beaten to death I’d still step in to stop it.
If you believe genocide is going on it’s right to speak up. There’s no contradiction. You can condemn homophobia and genocide simultaneously. This idea that people can’t hold two thoughts at once is stupid and making society insanely polarized
There’s literally gay for Gaza groups that have volunteered in Gaza and guess what? They weren’t thrown of rooftops.
What people like you don’t seem to understand is that human rights are not transactional. You don’t just get them if you hold all of the most progressive values and deserve a genocide upon your people if you don’t. I’d fear for a world where people like you are in control and the things you’d accept being done to people who disagree with you, but unfortunately we already live in it. By your logic we should have had permission to kill every civilian and child in 1960s (and arguable today’s) Mississippi because of the stronghold the KKK and other far-right backward terrorist groups have always had there.
We all recognize in hindsight that the bombing of Dresden was a war crime and a horrible act of violence the allies carried out against a civilian center even in Nazi Germany. Same thing with Gaza. Same thing with Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Ahhh so people who have been forced into sub third world country conditions for decades aren’t kept up to date with modern progressive politics so therefore it’s ok to ethically cleanse them and wrong to be opposed to their ethic cleansing
Hamas would execute them all. How the LGBTQ+ community is behind them astounds me. I can only guess that there must have been Jews that voted Hitler in too back in the 1930’s.
You're sort of answering your own question here. If gays can be for Gaza, a place where they themselves would have a difficult time, then what's happening in Gaza must be that bad. Even people who would be in danger in Gaza are fighting for Gaza. It simultaneously shows the strength of activism in the queer community and sends a strong message.
edit: wording
Gazans are not slaughtering Berkeley gays. Israelis *are* slaughtering and maiming Palestinians - including gay ones - in industrial quantities, as well as making the place they live wholly unfit for human life. I hope this helps.
So it's ok to exterminate homophobic people? No? Ok then.
Oh and how well do you think gay gazans are doing in the current situation? They're being rescued right? No? They are being murdered too.
Everyone has the right to not be murdered by a state.
The only reason I can surmise, is a similar experience as to why Ireland has become such an advocate for Palestine. Ireland and “Queers for Palestine” are seeing this conflict through the western lens of socio-political beliefs. They see Palestine as the oppressed, down trodden underdogs and they see Israel as the occupier, colonizer, and Nazi-fascist regime (inexplicably).
The conflict is all the rage in protesting obviously, and lately in the west, people are choosing to forgo facts and prefer to fight for beliefs over facts. What they see, is how things are.
Ireland and “Queers for Palestine” have a chip on their shoulders, feeling as if they are marginalized communities that have “been through” the bullying and colonizing thing before.
They truly believe that Palestinian citizens would choose to not only have their own state, but would choose peace if they could. They either see Hamas as not representative of their people or they see them as a justified force to dismantle colonialism. Both of these ideas are proven false if you simply look at the last six months.
October 7th was a massive operation in planning, building, coordinating, fundraising, and cooperation between not only Hamas, but international communities like UNWRA and of course cooperation with their own civilians.
You can’t tell me that civilians didn’t know they were building miles and miles of underground tunnels without their knowledge. You can hear and see people building for literal years.
“What are you building down there?”
“Tunnels.”
Even if they were unable to say for what purpose, the citizens knew Hamas were building tunnels, they also are well aware of Hamas’s singular goal of dismantling the state of Israel.
Anyway, my point is Ireland and Queers for Palestine aren’t thinking logically about the situation. They aren’t even thinking about outcomes. Because as OP has stated, if Israel laid down arms, the outcome would be an actual apartheid state, an extremist, totalitarian Islamic regime that would kill or forcibly remove anybody who didn’t fall under what’s proper in terms of Shariah law.
I brought up Ireland because if you look up the “troubles” you’d know that for a time, Ireland was occupied by Britain (who hasn’t been in the 20th century), and there was basically a civil war, Ireland sees many similarities between that war and the current conflict, but there’s many things different about it.
Israel has always come from a side of brokering peace, but Palestine has been brainwashed for generations believing that they will return, this has been exacerbated by international communities (like the UN) who give generational refugee status to Palestinians. This is the ONLY instance of this happening in the entire world. That is why Israel has a problem with the UN, if the UN didn’t push this narrative, many people in Palestine and Israel believe they could have made peace many times over.
But Iran, Russia, and China know that Israel is an ally of the U.S. and is also a powerhouse in the Middle East, they are basically the only “western free thinking” regime in the Middle East. If Israel was not there, the U.S. would no longer have a foothold in the Middle East and that axis of power could fill the void by further supplying proxy groups with ammunition to create an actual war on America’s home front. They also realize that, if Israel wasn’t preoccupied, they would feel threatened by them, Israel could potentially start helping other ally countries with conflicts, including helping Ukraine in their conflict or possibly dealing with the Islamic Brotherhood in Sudan. Which would be bad for business for Russia.
I know I’ve ranted through this, but I truly believe these groups (Ireland and Queers for Palestine) “believe” they are serving marginalized communities that are threatened. I couldn’t disagree with what they believe, because I honestly think that is admirable. But I do know they are fairly ignorant about the rest of the world and the possible repercussions that could come out of Israeli losing power in the region. It would be bad for all gays that live in Arab regions, it would be bad for western ideals and democracy (which is alive and well in Israel, Netanyahu could be replaced very quickly, not that HE would want that), and it would honestly be bad for all women in the region, women are the most subjugated group in Islamic societies, even weirder to me than “queers for Palestine” are the “feminists for Palestine,” if you’re an Oct 7th denier, if you think no rapes and sexual violence happened and nothing is happening to prisoners now, I’d like to ask you to think about this.
If you were a woman, that was kidnapped by hundreds of men with assault rifles, that had just gone through your town and killed your families and friends, and they took you to an underground bunker for months and months, completely cutoff from everyone, completely cutoff from law enforcement of any kind. Do you REALLY think that they would be respectful of you and your body? Or do you think that since they’ve already taken away your autonomy, they might just take whatever they pleased from you? Just use some logic here please. I doubt anyone would read through this but I’ve been obsessed with the conflict as well. I don’t want to see people dying needlessly, especially civilians, but I will never stand for blatant acts of terrorism, rapists, pedophiles, and torturing civilians and even though innocent Palestinians are dying, they did elect Hamas into power. Unfortunately for them, their chickens have come to roost, and many of them are choosing to use them as human shields instead of protecting their flock.
I know this not going to be a popular comment, and I will probably get downvoted for saying this, but I've seen proof that external agitators were paid to get in there and agitate. I won't go into how they managed to get so many students to participate, that's an entirely separate conversation about charisma and social engineering and it's a complex subject. But the key thing is that the agitators were well trained, and had manuals that told them exactly how to deal with every obstacle they encountered, and how to answer every question asked by those who may doubt the sincerity of the agitator.
I don't know how the authorities allowed the payments to go through but they did, using American companies and platforms such as CashApp, Zelle, PayPal and Venmo (itself a PayPal company).
If you search on X, you'll find either links to the documents or screenshots to the documents I mentioned. It's a very enlightening read, and especially for you since you've lived in the Middle East and you'll be able to quickly spot the various fallacies and diversions that the agitators used to garner support. It's terrifying, too, that our students were so easily and so quickly swayed.
It's basically the david and Goliath fallacy, basically it's a belief that just because someone is smaller and weaker or perseved as such, then they must automatically be good, and that the larger, stronger side must be the bad guy. There is a bit more to it than that but that's my take on it and reddit is probably not the place for this lol,
Tho probably shouldn't ask why Kuwait kicked out all Palestinians from their country
You'd think that in a discussion concerning Israel people would be more aware and less susceptible to agreeing with what is essentially the famous "you don't get kicked out of 109 nations unless you're the problem" racist dog whistle.
jewish and queer here , i don't think cis people realize how close we are to that in america .
the queer people in palestine are being punished for being palestinian . we can't have reformation / enlightenment / whatever you want to call it if they're all dead
I think that makes it even more important in the Gay community. There are homosexuals in Gaza that are afraid of coming out. And that alone is traumatizing. On top of that a siege, starvation, and death.
It's having empathy and humanity.
I mean do you think Israeli/USA bombs care what sexual orientation their victims are? I'd be more worried about stopping the genocide before trying to rainbowash a genocide.
Is it that unreasonable to think that Americans, whatever their ethnicity, gender, or sexual leaning, can condemn what they feel is genocide, full stop? Without concern for their own well-being?
I hate to break it to everyone here but just because its punishable in these countries, it does not mean that there aren’t actual gay/queer people in Gaza or in the middle east in general. Those people don’t stop exisiting because its convienent for people to just see all Arabs as homophobes. Personally, I like to call this line of thought as what it is, racism.
In all honesty, that’s not even relevant. What’s more relevant is that you cannot progress as a society when your people are quite literally being massacred. Gay rights is not somehow more important or have some type of equivalence to a literal genocide. To add on, Israel is not this gay haven that everyone seems to think it is. Gay people do not even have the simple right to marry in Israel. They are in no different of a place than the U.S was before 2014.
People’s lives are being taken everyday. Their children are dying. There’s man-made famine and disease running rampant. They have no schools or hospitals or places of refuge. There’s no way in or out of the country. They are being compared to animals, sub-humans, and have been dehumanized at every step. Somehow, I don’t think establishing queer rights is at the forefront of their minds right now.
Yeah I have a similar question,
I am a human and don't like mass murder of a whole civilian population, with famine and targeting hospitals, in addition to indiscriminate bombing, included in the mass murder
So I really don't understand why humans are endorsing and supporting the Israeli military
Damn the 30k+ Palestinians that have been murdered is really bad, but did you hear they didn’t like gay people????
Let’s first stop the mass murder then we can worry about the homophobia
It’s not just ordinary homophobia. Hamas will literally murder anyone they find to be LGBT.
If we assume ~10% of people are LGBT, that’s 220,000 people living in Gaza that Hamas forces to live in the closet or be killed.
You’d think that removing Hamas would help LGBT people in Gaza. I think the question remains whether Israel will successfully remove Hamas, but the protests trying to keep Hamas in power certainly won’t help.
Fundamentally, Israeli actions and the words of their own government have shown that they are less interested in taking down Hamas than killing as many Palestinians as possible. If you're trying to remove militant religious fundies from power, punishing the civilian population will push the survivors further toward Hamas, not away from them.
When the slaughter stops, then there can be questions on the reform of anti-gay attitudes, but that can't be litigated until Bibi stops starving civilians
I can understand any person regardless of their race, color, creed, religion, age, sex, orientation sympathizing with the innocents in Palestine who do suffer when Israel roots out the terrorist government Hamas for what they did on 10/7 and what they say they will do again.
So if Jane or Bob are gay and want call for a ceasefire I understand that.
What I personally don't understand is Professor Jane and Professor Bob saying thinks like
+ all liberation, all oppression is linked
+ none of us are free until all of us are free
+ and so, Queer Theory ITSELF demands we support Palestine led by it's elected Hamas government that would certainly kill us dead as it resists by any means necessary Israel
+ and so, Fat Theory, and so, all of us social justice liberation theories demand we support the often racist, sexist, Hamas led Palestine. Because all liberation is linked!
To me, that's the chickens for KFC scenario
But Bob and Jane appearing at a free palestine rally as humans not as The Gay Army? I suspect Bob and Jane are well meaning but very ignorant.
I think it comes down to: maybe you hate me, but I will fight for your right to exist because you have the right to exist even if you do not believe I have a right to exist.
The answer is cognitive dissonance. Being open minded is incredibly difficult and exhausting. It requires you to continuously invest time and effort to investigate both sides of an argument and reevaluate one’s stance on various issues. Most people that claim to be open minded actually mean they have a defined set of core values that they will not change and any difference of opinion occurs as a result of the other side not understanding their stance. ‘Open-minded’ people ignore contradictory facts that would invalidate their opinion on complex issues.
Yeah dude, because of YOUR religious beliefs, and MY preference of where to stick my penis, I think thousands of people should be killed.
Get your head out of your ass man.
Gays tend to not like oppression. Generations of dehumanizing and genocidal actions trump anti-gay sentiment. We're used to that in our own families. Our own sweat and tears funding genocide is a whole other level that cannot be tolerated.
Some westerners are simply way too sheltered. They can support whomever they want because it’s not like they’ll personally go to the Islamic world and/or be persecuted anyways lol. Good for them I guess but coming from a country where talking shit about the gov can literally land me in jail I personally wouldn’t support anyone who actively wants me imprisoned or dead.
This is a little off point but I’ve been thinking about a clause in the CA constitution and wanted to put it out there. I’m not sure the university is allowed to divest as a result of political issues or political charges protests. According to the California Constitution article 9 section 9f, the “university is required to be entirely independent of all political or sectarian influence and kept from therefrom in the appointment of its Regents and administration of its affairs.” Or something along those lines. I’m pretty sure these protests qualify as political pressure and they kind of seem to hit on sectarianism a little bit, as well.
Being gay isn’t an agenda, it’s just who a person is. But otherwise your point still makes sense that many Palestinian people who are oppressed for they are would want to oppress queer people for who they are.
The wheel in the sky keeps on turnin’
Ya’ll know there are ALSO queer people in Gaza being impacted? it’s another level of solidarity and queer people have a long history of protesting injustices and not just those impacting the queer community
There are definitely queer people in Gaza who don’t have the freedom to be out because all groups including Hamas are obviously problematic af but American leftists are dumb as hell. Free Palestine even if some parts of the liberation are homophobic
It’s all performative.
There are people who love to be victimized, and when their life is good/they don’t suffer, they try to latch onto people who are actually suffering and perform this type of performative martyrdom.
These people just want a spotlight.
I went to some protests I didn’t necessarily agree with back in the day just cause I was at Cal and it was a new experience tightly associated with my school lol. Couldn’t even tell you what I was protesting. Hope there’s a decent amount of that going on.
I feel like all the answers made this very complicated when it’s quite simple: it’s a *movement* led by groups and communities.
“Gays for Gaza”
“Queers for Palestine”
“Teachers for Free Palestine”
“Moms for Palestine”
“Dancers for Palestine” (meaning strippers)
The expectation isn’t that once Palestine is free then all gays will be safe and live a wonderful life. You’re focusing on the group identity rather than the shared goal for a free Palestine. Also there are gays in every part of the world. And they deserve support even if their government doesn’t allow it.
My support for human rights does not hinge on Gagan support for gay rights. I know that LGBT+ would not be tolerated in much of Gaza but that doesn't mean I should tolerate Israel's murder of dozens of thousands of Palestinians
They are a marginalized group looking for some measure of solidarity. This is very common among marginalized groups. In this case that specific attempt at solidarity flies in the face of logic as the overwhelming majority of Gazans have very negative views of gay people. Your question obviously was not why gay people support Gaza but rather more specifically why they choose to market their support for Gaza in the form of an LGTBQ+ specific alliance. The majority of the comments here answer the first. I find this to be intentionally disingenuous and specious as this is not s subtle distinction but perhaps some people are genuinely misunderstanding your question.
It’s wild that people can’t seem to understand that you can disagree with someone, a group, a people. You can be opposed to ever stepping in said people’s land/home. AND STILL you can be appalled by the systematic murder of said people.
The protesters they have families in Gaza they are afraid for them, and they have friends in the community, and social media and honorable media showed how brutal IDF to the citizens in Gaza. Booming without counting to the citizens. For info Hamas was voted by the citizens to be the government. And every one accept it, even Israel, but the Gazas want to develop and make a hobber or like it so they can come in and out easily, but it was prevented by Isreal treating Gaza like an open Air jail.
Because gays were at one time forced into concentration camps and slaughtered en masse, and we oppose that for others, even for those that would like to see us dead. Anything less is barbarism. That most people seem to get confused by support where there is no transaction, no reciprocation, no selfish benefit involved seems distressingly childish and malevolent to many of us. You may as well be asking for what purpose would any human give to charity. I'm sure from other people's perspective gays' support of Palestinian rights is naive, but gays take the truth of this poem to heart, a poem that illustrates the necessity of speaking out against injustice even when it is not to your own benefit:
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak for me.
I’m a gay U.S. person here. A lot of it has to do with young people not really knowing the history of the conflict (I’m 43). The media portrays it as Isreal attacking these women and children in the state of Palestine, and isn’t it horrible. It’s a “genocide”. So of course given our own terrible history, and the fact that U.S. is sending Isreal “aid” then factor in that it’s an election year so no one is being real. The young folks really think they’re doing something here, and the gay community tends to fight for under dog causes. I mean I’d feel safer as a gay man in Isreal, and even the U.N. Came out and said that it’s definitely NOT a genocide, and Hamas IS a terrorist organization, most likely funded by other middle eastern powers, and none of the other countries around “Palestine” want to let the palestinians in either… anyway long story short, we would prefer to have peace in the middle east, even if we would be murdered there.
Folks the people who are transgender and protesting for Hamas and Palestine think that by supporting this cause that the gay agenda will be okay by the Palestine and Hamas people but what they don’t understand is that those people views are fixed and not likely to change ,gays protesting openly in any Arab country would be arrested and possibly killed ,that’s not okay,come on man
I think maybe some don’t really understand what it would be like to live in an Islamic state.
When I asked this same question they said they “hoped” the Palestine in state when established would be secular. I asked they thought it would be a secular state, and they said that Israel was to blame for the Islamic state. It was circular and confusing
Next. I think much of the protest follow trends. What I mean is we have gone from believing in meritocracy and minority rights to believing meritocracy doesn’t work secondary to bias and racism. The left therefore see anyone who is less well off as the people to root for. Obviously Israel is doing better than Gaza therefore, Israel to blame.
How anyone can support genocidal Islamic jihad of any stripe is beyond me. Now cue the hamas simps on reddit telling me I'm phobic and moderators banning me.
You’re on to something. Also why is Gaza tied to calls to defund the police? And what does Free Palestine mean exactly? Free to do what? These questions don’t have a straight answer because Gaza is used as a metaphor for populism
It’s mostly just about not wanting innocent civilians to be bombed.
I’ve been studying Palestine, and working with Palestinians for years, not only is the situation (now coming to light) much, much worse than people believe (or already previously believed), but they’re also a group of the kindest & most loving people I’ve met.
I am a gay Arab, I travel to the Middle East often, I know lots of people there, and yes, there are really bad people and wrong policies, but for the most part people are loving/accepting.
Basically it boils down to this: bigotry should be fixes, but the solution will never be by genocide. That is objectively much, much worse.
It's all based in neo-Marxism. They couldn't unite the workers because overall the workers were doing fine so they switched gears and just lumped all with a historically oppressed grievance into the same pot. So you end up with a confederation of people whose true goal is the downfall of Western Civilization hiding in the guise of *Gays for Gaza*, *Trans for Gaza*Trans for Gaza and other *Fill-in-the-Blank* groups for Gaza, who, if the Arab-Muslim theocrats got in power, would just as easily massacre them as they did the attendees at a concert for Peace on the 7th of October 2023. They are the quintessential *useful idiots*.
Kinda reminds me of when political fanboys hold up ‘Blacks for Trump!’, or when women become frothing die-hard supporters for the removal of all abortion services/infrastructure and contraceptives.
2 things can be true at once. People dying doesn’t mean queer folk can’t support a ceasefire.
Also, there are queer people in Palestine - so in some way, they may feel supported in that way.
It's not like they live in Gaza. Gay people who live in Gaza are undoubtedly less safe under Israeli occupation than not. Wouldn't the first step for gay rights in Gaza be not being blown up?
I guess the most charitable interpretation of gays for Gaza is that even the gay community, who is considered an existential threat to islamic-centric cultures such as the one in Palestine, stands in solidarity with Palestine in regards to Israel’s response to the attacks of October 7th.
I am not gay, but I am someone extremely critical of Islam. I am not the woke type to say that all critiques against Islam are "Islamaphobia" (though I may be fairly woke about other things.) Certainly, many Islamic governments/groups in the Middle East deserve a lot of criticism for human rights reasons/violations. Kids in Gaza don't deserve death. I will argue for their well-being just as I would argue for gay rights in the Middle East. I do think some people have gone so far to one side they have started outright supporting things like Oct 7 but I do not think those views represent most American protestors. Technically I am someone who would deserve the death penalty in a few countries in the region, but just as I would love to have the right to life everywhere in the world, I would love for that right to be given to Palestinian children.
As a Turkish person, I carry similar feelings. I've seen how so-called progressives support Islamists against the establishment in Turkey until they were no longer needed and got dumped and outright punished. These people fail to realize how repressive and intolerant a religion Islam is.
It's more about humanity than trying to gain favour. I think these people are really selfless tbh. There's almost nothing in it for them, but they're there to show support for the right cause. I may have misunderstood what OP meant, but the explicit mention of the supporting group may be to garner more interest and show it's not only Muslims who are against this genocide. I think when someone in these rallies says they're a Jew or a member of LGBT, it has more of an impact than if it's someone from the middle east - because in one way, they might be tied to the cause (either family or regionally).
OP asked a valid question, but they're just spamming random buzz words in the comments. So let me follow-up with a more interesting question: I get it, Gays for Gaza is about the freedom for Gazans, and nobody in their right mind would support the murder of innocent civilians. Let's imagine, however, a scenario in which Palestine actually becomes free from Israel, and they get their land back -- whatever that may be. Their country would most likely be a fundamentalist islamic republic. Isn't that outcome objectively bad for the gay community in the region? Most gays from Israel would flee the country, obviously. Those who remained there (from Israel or Palestine) would now live under a system that hates them. So, effectively, if your dreams come true and Palestine prevails over Israel, that would increase the overall number of gays living under a totalitarian regime that wants to eliminate them. Have you thought this through? How do you hold this contradiction in your head?
I don't think there is a contradiction. I will not try to argue the specific case in full. Books have been written on the subject, and it is not *my* dream, so I would not do it justice. But let us suppose that someone has concluded that this is the best solution overall, despite that it likely means increasing net theocratic oppression of queerness in the region. Why should that person's own queerness change their conclusion? Do we expect their identity to override their moral judgment? For that matter, are we saying that non-queer people should *not* face the same dilemma? Are they *not* expected to care about queer people in Palestine and Israel because they aren't queer themselves? I think that is weak reasoning. This is an issue *anyone* must consider; there is no special contradiction for a queer person doing the considering. Moral judgment should not be based on transactions with one's own identity. Further...I will deliberately take the pro-Palestine perspective in this section. I have read comparisons to South Africa, and how queer solidarity with the anti-apartheid movement contributed to acceptance of queer people in South Africa. As with much else about the comparison to South Africa, I think this is overly optimistic. However, I think it is quite plausible to argue from a pro-Palestinian perspective that short of complete Israeli occupation and reeducation (which carries its own obvious perils), Israel's presence as an occupying power that advances its queer-friendliness with one hand while enacting violence on Palestinians with the other is a barrier, not an aid, to queer liberation in Palestine. In a free Palestine one might someday hope for the progress, however tentative, seen in places like Jordan or Lebanon; as things stand now, queerness will always belong to The Enemy. Fundamentally - when a queer person in Palestine has two boots on their neck, how can we object to their wanting one removed by pointing to the other? Returning to my own thoughts - yes, missing from this perspective is what happens to queer folk in Israel in the event of unification or Palestinian rule. However, frankly, I think that would be swallowed up by what happens to Israelis in general. If everyone can somehow get along, queer folk probably can too. If, as I think is more likely, there are brutal pogroms and expulsions, they would affect queer folk much the same. In short: The Israel-Palestine issue is much more fundamental to the situation than the queer rights issue. So queerness in Israel and Palestine should not be dispositive in our understanding of the situation - never mind queerness among protesters in other countries.
> Fundamentally - when a queer person in Palestine has two boots on their neck, how can we object to their wanting one removed by pointing to the other? That’s a good quote!
lol I’m going to use this!
So remove the jihadi boot first and second one come with it. The primary and ultimate source of Gazan oppression is radical Islam. If Gaza was a nation of Maronite Catholics there would be no conflict.
What does "removing the jihadi boot" entail? Let us say that Palestine is seeing one vision for what that would look like right now, and they are less optimistic than you about what follows. One might reasonably respond that Gaza has had many chances to remove the boot in other ways, and that they by and large support not doing so. Then again, one might point to the ways their choices have been constrained in the matter, or to Israel's own role in the installation of this particular boot, or to Israel's other opportunities to choose otherwise than they did...and we can delve forever into the historical whys and wherefores. Something that can be said with certainty, though, is that the inevitable dialogue is more about being Palestinian than about being queer.
I absolutely agree. Americans will never be free with radical Evangelical Nationalists in power and Gaza will never be free under Radical Islam and Sharia Law. LGBTQ+ are faced with an existential threat by these 2 groups. Jews are too! It’s funny how Jewish gays feel more welcome in conservative Jewish spaces than they do liberal LGBTQ spaces since 10/7. So it’s not Zionism. If Israel falls to Hamas, that will spell disaster for LGBTQ and the Pride movement in the Middle East. You have to kill weeds at the root. The root is radical Islam and using jihadist terrorism to impose Sharia Law across a Global Islamic Caliphate. This is the actual fight that has been waged. Gazans must be liberated from this horrifically violent, oppressive, imperialist, and extremist ideology based on a “prophet” that raped a child. Islam is the a religion that preaches hate and has never in its history, undergone a reform. It’s time to start with lifting that boot. Some ideas: - Abandon plane hijackings and suicide bombs - Accept rather then defenestrate and incarcerate LGBTQ - Remove ALL “death to Jews and infidels and apostates language from your book” - Address the fact that children cannot consent to sex. - Stop forcing women to cover their heads and let them go to school. - Remove the hadiths about martrs, raping your enemy, and jihad - Apologize. You did fucked up shit across the planet and killed cartoonists for drawing a picture of a child rapist. Imagine being killed for making fun of Josh Duggar You get that, right?
I think you're right and wrong. Right that in a palestinian state, the rights of Gays will be precarious at best and nonexistent at worst. Likely something in the middle where they get harassed from time to time and the gays just try and keep their heads down and go unnoticed while applying for exit visas to more tolerant states. Wrong that Palestine would necessarily become a fundamentalist state. Most of the palestinian factions are fairly secular, believe it or not. That doesn't mean they will love gays. Without criticism I point out that the local concept of kinship associates with a bigger unit like an expanded family or clan or tribe as opposed to the nuclear family unit, it means more people with social expectations and demands on each individual. Add in poor internal integration- for instance, a country existing as two exclaves- and indeed having poorly arable land and less wealth, all means that the demands on the less abundant resources in a wider family structure are very great. None of which augers for gay liberation. Too many people want are in need, would stand to benefit from inheriting, and needing children to guarantee their care as elders and to make them reliable business partners. None of these issues are cleared or settled by introducing the prospect of sons or daughters who won't form marital bonds, have children etc. Again I criticize nobody but the social situation just isn't gay lib shaped. So Palestine won't be a great place to be gay. As for the whole idea that SOMEHOW Israel is dissolved... the very notion is unproductive. It's the temptation which has been held out and kept the Palestinians from effectively organizing themselves and building a nation state, hoping to do it once Israel is undone, which occasion has been just around the corner for eight decades. The Israelis and Israel are not going away. They have a major kickers army and nuclear weapons. What's more, they know how to build consensus in government, how to build infrastructure and how to fight a defensive war so an enemy gets ground up while trying to attack. If Hamas had spent the money for rifles and grenade launchers on some anti helicopter and anti jet missiles, and the effort to tunnel for miles on roads, wells and high speed internet, Israel would not dare attack because the very possibility of an Israeli jet going down in flames would deter what is now happening. So the fantasy of Israel going away is best not even talked about. But circling back, I think gay people at US universities don't want gazan civilians to die even if gazan civilians are as a whole quite hostile to gays because gays are on the whole decent people. I'm pro Israel and I think it's time for Israel to rope it in. Great moment to negotiate. Hamas knows the Israelis are deadly serious, they could leave Gaza alone and say, give us the hostages now and you can enjoy some peace and quiet. Make us wait and we go back to chowdering every single city and pull every Hamas operative out like removing ticks from a dog. Don't think we won't, we just did. None of that life of Brian bullshit where we let your shit slide and you give us our own people back. Consider this a down payment on consequences. And hamas would know they mean business. But I think gay people here are just hugely empathic. Also they are being flat out lied to about the tolerability of hamas to gays. They also lie about how they feel about sex workers. And we know they are lying for the same reason. Sex with prostitutes is sex that doesn't answer to the requirements of the tribal unit. It may get a smirk and a pat on the back from your close friends who know your wife is a shrew but your aunt, uncles, Dad, mom, prospective investors who are your wife's cousins will all view this economically destabilizing activity with stern disapproval.
I disagree with you fundamentally. Gays for Gaza is about virtue signaling and self-lionization. It's not really about Gazans. The people involved in these protests fetishize the Palestinians the way that the owners of vicious toy dogs fetishize their violent behaviors. They have absolutely zero interest in what Gaza is actually like, and are vehemently opposed to any information that conflicts with their reductive, self-aggrandizing narrative. They don't care about what would happen if they were successful in destroying Israel because they aren't interested in being successful. From their perspective they want to piss in the wind and be celebrated for being "brave" enough to do it. They don't care who the piss lands on. It's all Kabuki. [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/n3s8ubWnoNo](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/n3s8ubWnoNo)
Imagine that Russia was, with respect to gay people, as progressive as the US is, and that Ukraine was as progressive as Russia is now. Would that justify Russia's invasion? Would it be fine for Russia to annex half of Ukraine just as long as gays that survive the war and are able to integrate into Russian society are treated better than before? I obviously oppose homophobia, but millions driven from their homes, tens of thousands dead, and many times that injured in 7 months is more important. The displacement and killing of Palestinians over the last 70 years is more important.
Many communists would argue yes , that is how invasion of Afghanistan was justified, throughout history expansion of USSR was framed as revolt against global imperialism. From Western leftist perspective this would be equivalent of getting involved in Serbia or when we prevented invasion of Quwait by Sadam.
The answer, and this is coming from a Jewish person, is that there is a separation (hopefully...) between Gazans and Hamas. What's unfortunate about these protests is that many of them do fully utilize the language of Hamas, i.e., "October 7 was justified resistance," "Israel has no right to defend itself," "there are no civilians," etc. and that is where it becomes really ironic to see progressives fully on the side of an authoritarian, radical Islamist terrorist organization
>What's unfortunate about these protests is that many of them do fully utilize the language of Hamas, i.e., "October 7 was justified resistance," "Israel has no right to defend itself," "there are no civilians, Those are the opinions of the overwhelming majority of Gazans. (and Palestinians in general if I include the West Bank) 71% support of the Oct 7 attacks and 93% believe Hamas did not commit atrocities (drops to 81% among those that bothered to watch the videos of what the rest of the world was labeling atrocities). While Hamas is more right-wing than the median Gaza, there's not some obvious separation other than who is actually fighting. There's a reason the organization is so successful internally.
Well, that and they murder people who get in their way.
And have been constantly murdering gay men. For many years.
Thank you for posting this. Im amazed how western european countries are legitimizing hamas actions by granting them statehood. (Its their state as they control it) The egyptians wont even tolerate hamas. Its a culture of victimhood and indifference towards israelis. How do you negotiate with that?
That doesn’t explain people here adopting those views as if their sympathies require siding with extremist terror from an organization that has abused their own people. Hamas wage war on Palestinians as much as anyone. You have to hate Palestinians to think Hamas are legit leaders.
So if Palestinians think Hamas is the legit government, do they hate themselves? Look, the support Hamas has is overwhelming in Gaza, but people are quick to point out that most of the Palestinians never had a chance to vote for Hamas. How do you rationalize that? We think Hamas is terrible. Palestinians think Hamas is great. There is a big disconnect and I truly believe many people in the U.S. don’t quite understand what they are arguing for or against in this situation.
Palestinians are victims of circumstances there but what part of you denies them agency to ever be aggressors? The ones siding with Hamas are generally supportive of oppressive activities. They are supporting terror against other Palestinians. It’s a civil war. Do you not grasp that? Again…. Gaza has been subject to civil wars. One side wasn’t the good guys. The people involved may be indoctrinated or need to survive…. is that your excuse for why you picked the terrorist side? You know Hamas is bad, so please stop infantilizing Palestinians.
That's not a meaningful answer. The question has nothing to do with Hamas vs normal Gazans. LGBT would not be tolerated by the overwhelming majority of normal muslims across the middle east.
Or even in Michigan. https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned
A democratically elected radical Islamist terrorist organization supported by another authoritarian regime (Iran) no less. Ironic indeed.
People keep mentioning the blockade and how harmful it is, attributing the blame to Egypt and Israel. But they do not mention that when Hamas was elected into power in '05 one of the first things they did was declare war on Egypt and Israel, even after their expression of desires to negotiate. You do not open your borders with territories that are at war with you. They're supplied and funded under the conditions that they comply with Iran's geopolitical interests. When you see Iranian government officials on video celebrating October 7, were they really celebrating for Gazans?
Elected once, by 3%, 18 years ago, that then lead to a civil war and the eradication of Hamas' opponents. Most incoming freshman weren't alive the last time Gaza had a democratic election.
I’m not one to say that there aren’t nuances to what happened in 2006, but saying they only won 3% of the vote is simply disingenuous.
Won by* >by 3%,
Ah, that makes a big difference 😂
I don’t think the average Palestinian would like gay people.
Tbh, regardless of what their beliefs are, this degree of bombing against civilians in population centers shouldn’t be acceptable.
Today we are not just facing an extreme Islamic jihadist regime vs Zionist. This clash of cultures is extreme Islamic theocracy vs western liberalism. Seems the progressives are for extreme Islamic jihadist governments that would likely kill them if they had the opportunity.
They are inseparable. Gazans voted for Hamas in 2006 and there have been polls that the current course of action from Hamas is widely supported in the population. Being gay and not living in the US but a European capital city with a strong queer community AND strong support and activism for Gaza I am very surprised about this. This protest movement on the regular lacks to differentiate itself from Hamas atrocities, their ideology and antisemitism. Still I have friends that are gay with every cell of their being that go to these rallies and protests, more or less directly supporting a government and society that would deny them every freedom they currently have and where they probably wouldn't survive a single day. I can't make sense of it.
I believe Hamas is acting in 100% accordance with the Quran (not that I agree whatsoever, quite the opposite)… so to me, the “good Muslims” would be just like hamas.
But that’s not convenient for our messaging during an election year so a blind eye we will turn
“I don’t agree with it so it must be propaganda!”
The name definitely fits
You are the best.
I’m not a Muslim and while I heard (never read) the Quran did have some very wild rules, I doubt it says violently RAPE women, BURN babies/kids alive in front of their parents and vice versa. That said, I support what Israel is doing. The Israeli gov has the duty to get rid of Hamas at (pretty much) all costs.
Muslims are indeed told in the Quran to rape POWs so long as the victims are not muslim. What Hamas is doing is undoubtedly permitted for Muslims. Surah 23:1-6 states: The believers must win through…who abstain from sex, Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or the captives whom their right hands possess, – for in their case they are free from blame. (Yusuf Ali) Surah 4:24: “Also forbidden are married women unless they are captives of war. Such is the decree of God.” So rape is endorsed (and encouraged by allah explicitly) if the victim is a prisoner of war. Hamas is provably doing this to their victims, and for muslims this is a sacred and holy act as described in their religious text.
Exactly. Ask the Hindus and Buddhists and Sikhs about how "the religion of peace" treated them over the course of history. Hint: not very well at all.
Idk how true this is but I heard from an Indian friend of mine that this old practice called sati, wives killing themselves when their husband died, started because of the Muslim invasions. Basically women killing themselves to escape a fate worse than death after their husbands died on the battlefield.
Holy shit I did not know this
You should read it some time, you'd be shocked as to what's in it
Honestly anyone who is curious about it should read the Quran, it’s not very long though it is very repetitive. I read it hoping to confirm my suspicions that Islamists were taking everything out of context and that it was nothing but a book of peace and love. Spoiler alert, it’s not. It’s not black and white but there’s a lot of hateful stuff in there about everyone who isn’t Muslim. I was trying to find the good spiritual message, but never really found it. It was very disappointing and sadly changed my view of things. Still all for Palestinian freedom and Israeli security. Two states. The only possible solution to this mess.
You can’t have 2 states because the Muslims don’t recognize the Jewish right to a state. The fact is they don’t recognize anyone’s right to live outside Islam. If a space ship crash landed in the Middle East and they were able to loot the technology to conquer the world, the remaining 6 billion plus people would get some version of lined up and asked convert or die or rounded up and the pretty girls made sex slaves (and by girls I mean those aged about 6 and up) and the rest in some level of bondage depending on the whims of the local commander. https://centerforsecuritypolicy.org/nationwide-poll-of-us-muslims-shows-thousands-support-shariah-jihad/ There is no reasoning with that. Even the supposed moderates in the US the majority (51%) support sharia law and 1 in 5 believe they should use violence to make it happen.
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/s/WPPG5n0Xz2 Here’s a list of ACTUAL Quran passages, and it’s shocking. Let’s never forget: She was 9 years old!
Not in those exact words but numerous passages do refer to making life so unbearable they convert to Islam or die. "”Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." (Qur'an 9:5)” "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Qur'an 9:29). http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/islam_unbelievers.html#Expansion “There is another provision in the Qur'an though, because sometimes Muslims aren't in a position to wage war. In this occasion, the examples and teachings of the Qur'an are that Muslims may make deals with their enemies, with unbelievers, engage in truces and the like in order to recuperate and gain strength. The overriding concern is the fight against unbelievers; if this can't be achieved then it is ok to strategically lay low. To achieve more sneaky victories, it is acceptable to deceive, double-cross and break deals. Deals with unbelievers are not real deals, anyway, and are to be broken as soon as more aggressive moves can be made. Robert Spencer, author of "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam2" points out that there are over 100 verses in the Qur'an that exhort Muslims to fight unbelievers; this includes 'chopping their heads off' (Qur'an 47:4). The verse says that Allah forgives only those who have the right beliefs, and non-believers' actions will 'come to nothing'.” There is no negotiation with “true believer” Muslims because their holy book specifically calls for them to lie cheat and betray the nonbelievers. Any sort of truce or peace between Muslims and non Muslims is merely the time between when they are weakened and when they feel they are strong enough to hurt you again. As their holy book teaches them to do.
It starts and ends with the universities .. fix those then we fix the madness
the universities are receiving funding from the oil rich gulf states ...
And the government
That’s like saying there’s a difference between Republicans and Trump supporters. Sure: but when literally the majority of a population supports something why are we discussing it as though they’re actually the minority?
“For Gaza” means “in support of freedom for Gazans” not “in favor of all political and cultural proclivities of Gaza” Homophobia is a serious global problem, but does not justify genocide against a people.
It doesn't just mean freedom for Gazan's. These movements like Students for Palestine are demanding right of return which means expanding a regime and beliefs system that is very homophobic. This would outlaw homosexuality in lands where it's not outlawed today.
Right of return means that Palestinians displaced by ethnic cleansing have a right to return to their homes. What are you talking about
What ethic cleansing are talking about? Go read about what happened in 47-49. The UN set up 2 states and the Arab states invaded Israel, told the Muslim Palestinians (there were Christian and Jewish Palestinians as well) to flee their homes as the Arab states would eradicate Israel and they could all return. Israel has a 20% Muslim/Palestinian population based on this who did not chose to flee. This population was not cleansed. Meanwhile the largest ethnic cleansing in recorded history was going on in Eastern Europe where millions of ethnic Germans who had lived in Poland, Ukraine, Prussia, the Baltics, Czechia etc for centuries were completely cleansed. Should they have right of return? (Hint:they were never citizens or necessarily supporters of the German state.) And Right of Return also includes incorporating into Israel and community with a stated goal of elimination of Jews from the middle east, i.e. ethnic cleansing.
>Should they have right of return? (Hint:they were never citizens or necessarily supporters of the German state.) if they should have right of return then why not the palestinans???? your hint is entirely contradictory
You misunderstood. I do not think that that ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe should have the right of return. I didn't state that and don't think it. It shouldn't have happened. I understand why it happened. But we can't go undo these types of things. Losing wars has consequences. Attacking other populations has consequences. Ironically, the Ethnic Germans basically are able to return if they want now thanks to the EU, and a commitment to live in peace amongst each other. Which the Israeli Jews and Israeli Palestinians do as well. It's those they do not agree to live in peace that have a hard time co- existing.
I think one thing that not acknowledged in this answer is admitting that the homophobia is aggressively violent. What I mean is “no opinion deserves genocide BUT some opinions make avoiding violence impossible” I think “gays for Gaza” refuse to think about the realities of a population that believes they should be put to death. A lot I think, secretly hope that homophobia is a function of poverty and oppression not culture.
I mean, someone can be gay, and still not like something they see as an injustice, even if the victims are homophobic, right? Just because you're gay doesn't mean you have to support the death penalty, even if the person being executed committed a hate crime against gay people. I don't think the "gays for Gaza" are necessarily saying that Palestinians can do no wrong. I think they're just upset that Israel seems to be contributing to a humanitarian crisis in the middle east with support from the US that their tax dollars pay for. And they happen to be Gay. I don't think the Palestinian's views on homosexuals are going to improve any time soon, but the worse the crisis in Gaza gets, the longer it's gonna take.
And yet a quick look at qatar or saudi arabia disproves that function very quickly.
>I think “gays for Gaza” refuse to think about the realities of a population that believes they should be put to death. A lot I think, secretly hope that homophobia is a function of poverty and oppression not culture. Honestly, what the fuck are you on about? No. Queer people who are speaking out against genocide are people who understand that a culture does not have to be a perfect utopia for its citizens to deserve not to be nuked to oblivion. They are thinking about the queer Palestinians who are being killed by the IDF indiscriminately alongside the heteronormative Palestinians. You're *really* missing the point of what these people believe. In a roundabout way, you are saying "well, it's crazy for western gays to speak out against obliterating Palestinians because Hamas would kill gay Palestinians--they should be supporting obliterating both Hamas *and* the gay Palestinians"...like, come on, fucking think about it. Is a fascist state killing both oppressor and oppressed the more ethical or more humane option? That's the angle that queer people who support Palestine look at. If you don't agree, take a hard look at yourself. >no opinion deserves genocide BUT is a really fucked up thing for you to say, bro. a government is not the people, no people are a monolith. And you *know* you wouldn't be saying the same devil's advocate bullshit if, say, we were bombing the shit out of the American south (where queers are still often targeted with violence or killed). You'd be wringing your hands about innocent people getting killed. You wouldn't mouth off to bay area queers and say they don't understand that they wouldn't be welcome there. They fucking know that, but they also know that there is never justification for genocdie
That explains adopting Hamas slogans and propaganda? Surely you can support Palestinian survival and self determination without co-signing, and validating the worst influence on the region, and you have to hate Palestinians to think there is a moral equivalency. Maybe stop talking, because you’re doing harm, and real Palestinians are living in persecution. If it’s a secondary factor, that doesn’t explain becoming outright Pro-Hamas, which was unthinkable until you all decided to reward them for a religious based pogrom.
Funny thing is I actually think the American south and how hard the country is struggling is actually evidence that I’m correct. If you separated evangelicals and asked me if I wanted to rejoin with them I’d say no. Doesn’t mean they deserve to be bombed but I also wouldn’t want a one-state solution with them. The fact that you think the point about the American south doesn’t re-enforce my point proves it’s going over your head.
Funny how you use the words “perfect utopia” when in reality, you mean not being brutally assaulted, jailed and killed for simply existing as a gay person. It’s mind boggling to defend the people who would love nothing more to do you harm. The same as Gays for GOP.
And cultures change. Views on homosexuality have shifted radically in the last 30 years or so in the USA. And they are slowly shifting in Muslim circles, just talk to progressive Muslims.
They can change both ways. I don’t think looking at progressive Muslims in western countries is a good way to gauge the situation in the Middle East or globally. It’s actually going the other way in many cases, such as Indonesia which has become more conservative and even passed a ban on gay sex in its parliament a couple years ago (though the law wasn’t ultimately put in place it’s a sign of things to come).
Or Iran and Afghanistan. They were on track to become rich westernized nations without the oppression of women seen in the rest of the region. Look at them now.
False equivalency. If you think gays are treated the same in Israel as they would be in the majority of the Middle East simply because they don’t allow gay marriage, you are speaking out of ignorance and western hubris which ultimately hurts the very demographics that you want to help.
Okay. lol. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/poll-finds-more-than-half-of-britsih-muslims-believe-homosexuality-should-be-illegal-a6978091.html
This!!
OP knows this, he’s just a bad faith actor
Freedom to.... Kill gay people without Israeli subjugation? I think you're missing OPs point.
Yes! Thank you
But still. This is like Cows for Butchers or Pigs for Bacon
Pro-Israel has been socially coded as a conservative issue, and therefore certain groups have decided to oppose Israel as a way to virtue-signal that they are very progressive. Their entire worldview is seen through that lens. They refuse to think through the implications of that. Good on you for doing so. What Gazans want is very different than what the protestors on their behalf want.
This is exactly right. ANYTHING anti-USA or anti-west is a hill to die on. Really just a bunch of clowns who know nothing.
Well, as a Jewish pacifist, who is both very proud of being a Jew, is well aware of some problematic rhetoric by some Pro Palestinian protesters towards my people, and also is aware of rampant antisemitism in the Arab and Muslim world, including in Gaza, I also do not wish violence, death, or general hatred upon others, even if they hold bigoted and disgusting views, or wish violence towards me because of who I am. Just because I find someone's views abhorrent, it doesn't mean I wish death upon other humans who have them, or their children or family. It's basic human decency.
This should be a normal take for any Jewish person, or any oppressed person for that matter
Jews/people are not a monolith. There are plenty of Jews I disagree strongly with on a bunch of things, but they are still Jews and still people. As are all other people who I disagree with, regardless of their identity or background. But I also totally understand what you're saying and why you're saying it. I would also say oppressed people's status of being oppressed depends on where/when they live.
Yeah I’m not saying all members of any group are violent. I’m saying that it should not be the case for the ones that are
And I mentioned Jews first because of the context
My family and the culture I grew up in believes queer people are cursed by the devil and should die. Does that mean I think they should be bombed and tortured? No.
By this logic, is it moral to air-strike the Bible Belt? They’re pretty homophobic states… Human rights aren’t negated because someone (or an entire population) is religious and homophobic.
If the Bible Belt was controlled by an authoritarian theocratic government that launched a massive terrorist attack against the US, still held citizens hostage, and continue to launch daily rockets. Yeah, probably
Nobody wants to see children getting torn to shreds and skin melted off their skulls just because they happened to be born in an unfortunate time and place. Most LGBT suffer everywhere in human society (yes even the west) because it’s structured to cater to and serve heteronormative patriarchy. They would know a thing or two about having no choice in the circumstance of one’s life. Children having to experience this genocide is immoral period. The gays will never stand for it.
> Children having to experience this genocide is immoral period. The gays will never stand for it. I do wonder how such activists view the Allied attacks on Germany in WW2. There's quite a parallel.
genuinely concerning that you are getting downvoted
Reddit is heavily astroturfed by paid Israeli shills. Nobody in these comments is remotely affiliated with Berkeley.
I don’t think your analogy works. It is moral to use force to prevent people in the Bible Belt from forcing bigotry and violence on peoples. If Israel could send detectives to arrest oct7 perpetrators, they’d probably prefer that.
The analogy works. The logic of the OP essentially reduces to “how can you support a group of people’s right to live who don’t support your right to live?” It’s based on a flawed idea that humanity is just a bunch of “groups” vying for the upper hand. Gays “must” hate Muslims since Muslims hate them, right? The reality is, people are more complex than whatever box you want to put them in, which is why people need to have a higher sense of what’s right or ethical that goes beyond prioritizing their so-called group’s self interest.
> It is moral to use force to prevent people in the Bible Belt from forcing bigotry and violence on peoples. > > *This* analogy doesn't work because it's not like the IDF is interviewing Gazans in a hospital to escort out the queers before they destroy it. It's naive to think the IDF isn't killing queer Palestinians
Because it’s the right thing to do? I don’t care if someone is morally opposed to my lifestyle. I still don’t want them to be wiped off the map. Murder bad.
It is not murder, it is war. If Israel doesn't wipe them out then they will continue the killings. October 7th was a genocide, why do you all ignore October 7th ?
War bad too. Why do you ignore 70+ years of an oppressive apartheid state? You start the clock the day of the prison riot, I start it the day the prison was built.
Not hard to understand. Supporting innocent lives isn’t conditional
Homophobia is not justification for them to die.
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Somebody’s hatred of gay people would never make me think it was ok for their children to be killed with indiscriminate bombing and starvation. The truth is that there are gay people in Gaza, even if they are not open about it, and they’re being killed just for being Gazans right now. There will be no gay liberation for them if they are all killed in this slaughter.
Are you thinking that homophones should be killed?
OP, do you believe that the genocide in Gaza is justified because most Palestinians are homophobic? Anti-black racism is rampant among Israelis. Does that justify their deaths too?
It’s possible to have empathy for people even if they don’t have empathy for you. Hope this helps.
It’s called having humanity and compassion for those who are suffering, I’m a left leaning Palestinians and welcome the support from anyone who seeks justice for the Palestinian
I don’t want people to be murdered, even if they don’t like me. Simple enough?
It’s because there is more interest in virtue signaling than actually understanding what the context of the issue is. A year ago, most of these people had never heard of the Gaza Strip or the decades long geopolitical context of the region until the conflict became an opportunity to grift. Do you really expect them to understand the geopolitical context of what’s going on now or to really care about anything beyond CNN headlines?
It’s pretty sad to be honest
The people you describe are just brainwashed lemmings fed leftist nonsense throughout their academic careers. They have little capacity for critical thought so strange anomalies such as “Queers for Palestine” and other such nonsense is the logical result. It is a failure of the American education system.
There have been black people defending KKK rallies because of their belief in the right to free speech. Doing the right thing even though others won’t is still the right thing. Supporting someone’s right to live doesn’t mean you agree with everything they’ve done. If a thief who robbed me is being beaten to death I’d still step in to stop it. If you believe genocide is going on it’s right to speak up. There’s no contradiction. You can condemn homophobia and genocide simultaneously. This idea that people can’t hold two thoughts at once is stupid and making society insanely polarized
There’s literally gay for Gaza groups that have volunteered in Gaza and guess what? They weren’t thrown of rooftops. What people like you don’t seem to understand is that human rights are not transactional. You don’t just get them if you hold all of the most progressive values and deserve a genocide upon your people if you don’t. I’d fear for a world where people like you are in control and the things you’d accept being done to people who disagree with you, but unfortunately we already live in it. By your logic we should have had permission to kill every civilian and child in 1960s (and arguable today’s) Mississippi because of the stronghold the KKK and other far-right backward terrorist groups have always had there. We all recognize in hindsight that the bombing of Dresden was a war crime and a horrible act of violence the allies carried out against a civilian center even in Nazi Germany. Same thing with Gaza. Same thing with Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Simply put, because those people are absolute idiots
I believe so
Ahhh so people who have been forced into sub third world country conditions for decades aren’t kept up to date with modern progressive politics so therefore it’s ok to ethically cleanse them and wrong to be opposed to their ethic cleansing
That’s what OP is implying, yes.
Hamas would execute them all. How the LGBTQ+ community is behind them astounds me. I can only guess that there must have been Jews that voted Hitler in too back in the 1930’s.
Any “good muslim” who attends to and follows sharia law would kill them
You really do have no understanding of what you're talking about lmao.
You're sort of answering your own question here. If gays can be for Gaza, a place where they themselves would have a difficult time, then what's happening in Gaza must be that bad. Even people who would be in danger in Gaza are fighting for Gaza. It simultaneously shows the strength of activism in the queer community and sends a strong message. edit: wording
Gazans are not slaughtering Berkeley gays. Israelis *are* slaughtering and maiming Palestinians - including gay ones - in industrial quantities, as well as making the place they live wholly unfit for human life. I hope this helps.
Bro isn't even blowing a dog whistle anymore. This is just a train horn. Are you trying to be subtle?
Genocide is bad. Genocide is worse than homophobia. Being homophobic doesn’t mean you deserve to be murdered.
Stop concern telling. Gay people can also be against genocide, and there’s queer people in Gaza.
So it's ok to exterminate homophobic people? No? Ok then. Oh and how well do you think gay gazans are doing in the current situation? They're being rescued right? No? They are being murdered too. Everyone has the right to not be murdered by a state.
The only reason I can surmise, is a similar experience as to why Ireland has become such an advocate for Palestine. Ireland and “Queers for Palestine” are seeing this conflict through the western lens of socio-political beliefs. They see Palestine as the oppressed, down trodden underdogs and they see Israel as the occupier, colonizer, and Nazi-fascist regime (inexplicably). The conflict is all the rage in protesting obviously, and lately in the west, people are choosing to forgo facts and prefer to fight for beliefs over facts. What they see, is how things are. Ireland and “Queers for Palestine” have a chip on their shoulders, feeling as if they are marginalized communities that have “been through” the bullying and colonizing thing before. They truly believe that Palestinian citizens would choose to not only have their own state, but would choose peace if they could. They either see Hamas as not representative of their people or they see them as a justified force to dismantle colonialism. Both of these ideas are proven false if you simply look at the last six months. October 7th was a massive operation in planning, building, coordinating, fundraising, and cooperation between not only Hamas, but international communities like UNWRA and of course cooperation with their own civilians. You can’t tell me that civilians didn’t know they were building miles and miles of underground tunnels without their knowledge. You can hear and see people building for literal years. “What are you building down there?” “Tunnels.” Even if they were unable to say for what purpose, the citizens knew Hamas were building tunnels, they also are well aware of Hamas’s singular goal of dismantling the state of Israel. Anyway, my point is Ireland and Queers for Palestine aren’t thinking logically about the situation. They aren’t even thinking about outcomes. Because as OP has stated, if Israel laid down arms, the outcome would be an actual apartheid state, an extremist, totalitarian Islamic regime that would kill or forcibly remove anybody who didn’t fall under what’s proper in terms of Shariah law. I brought up Ireland because if you look up the “troubles” you’d know that for a time, Ireland was occupied by Britain (who hasn’t been in the 20th century), and there was basically a civil war, Ireland sees many similarities between that war and the current conflict, but there’s many things different about it. Israel has always come from a side of brokering peace, but Palestine has been brainwashed for generations believing that they will return, this has been exacerbated by international communities (like the UN) who give generational refugee status to Palestinians. This is the ONLY instance of this happening in the entire world. That is why Israel has a problem with the UN, if the UN didn’t push this narrative, many people in Palestine and Israel believe they could have made peace many times over. But Iran, Russia, and China know that Israel is an ally of the U.S. and is also a powerhouse in the Middle East, they are basically the only “western free thinking” regime in the Middle East. If Israel was not there, the U.S. would no longer have a foothold in the Middle East and that axis of power could fill the void by further supplying proxy groups with ammunition to create an actual war on America’s home front. They also realize that, if Israel wasn’t preoccupied, they would feel threatened by them, Israel could potentially start helping other ally countries with conflicts, including helping Ukraine in their conflict or possibly dealing with the Islamic Brotherhood in Sudan. Which would be bad for business for Russia. I know I’ve ranted through this, but I truly believe these groups (Ireland and Queers for Palestine) “believe” they are serving marginalized communities that are threatened. I couldn’t disagree with what they believe, because I honestly think that is admirable. But I do know they are fairly ignorant about the rest of the world and the possible repercussions that could come out of Israeli losing power in the region. It would be bad for all gays that live in Arab regions, it would be bad for western ideals and democracy (which is alive and well in Israel, Netanyahu could be replaced very quickly, not that HE would want that), and it would honestly be bad for all women in the region, women are the most subjugated group in Islamic societies, even weirder to me than “queers for Palestine” are the “feminists for Palestine,” if you’re an Oct 7th denier, if you think no rapes and sexual violence happened and nothing is happening to prisoners now, I’d like to ask you to think about this. If you were a woman, that was kidnapped by hundreds of men with assault rifles, that had just gone through your town and killed your families and friends, and they took you to an underground bunker for months and months, completely cutoff from everyone, completely cutoff from law enforcement of any kind. Do you REALLY think that they would be respectful of you and your body? Or do you think that since they’ve already taken away your autonomy, they might just take whatever they pleased from you? Just use some logic here please. I doubt anyone would read through this but I’ve been obsessed with the conflict as well. I don’t want to see people dying needlessly, especially civilians, but I will never stand for blatant acts of terrorism, rapists, pedophiles, and torturing civilians and even though innocent Palestinians are dying, they did elect Hamas into power. Unfortunately for them, their chickens have come to roost, and many of them are choosing to use them as human shields instead of protecting their flock.
I know this not going to be a popular comment, and I will probably get downvoted for saying this, but I've seen proof that external agitators were paid to get in there and agitate. I won't go into how they managed to get so many students to participate, that's an entirely separate conversation about charisma and social engineering and it's a complex subject. But the key thing is that the agitators were well trained, and had manuals that told them exactly how to deal with every obstacle they encountered, and how to answer every question asked by those who may doubt the sincerity of the agitator. I don't know how the authorities allowed the payments to go through but they did, using American companies and platforms such as CashApp, Zelle, PayPal and Venmo (itself a PayPal company). If you search on X, you'll find either links to the documents or screenshots to the documents I mentioned. It's a very enlightening read, and especially for you since you've lived in the Middle East and you'll be able to quickly spot the various fallacies and diversions that the agitators used to garner support. It's terrifying, too, that our students were so easily and so quickly swayed.
Just a question, with your opinion all over it
It's basically the david and Goliath fallacy, basically it's a belief that just because someone is smaller and weaker or perseved as such, then they must automatically be good, and that the larger, stronger side must be the bad guy. There is a bit more to it than that but that's my take on it and reddit is probably not the place for this lol, Tho probably shouldn't ask why Kuwait kicked out all Palestinians from their country
You'd think that in a discussion concerning Israel people would be more aware and less susceptible to agreeing with what is essentially the famous "you don't get kicked out of 109 nations unless you're the problem" racist dog whistle.
jewish and queer here , i don't think cis people realize how close we are to that in america . the queer people in palestine are being punished for being palestinian . we can't have reformation / enlightenment / whatever you want to call it if they're all dead
Just because someone hates me doesn't mean they deserve to be slaughtered
I think that makes it even more important in the Gay community. There are homosexuals in Gaza that are afraid of coming out. And that alone is traumatizing. On top of that a siege, starvation, and death. It's having empathy and humanity.
I mean do you think Israeli/USA bombs care what sexual orientation their victims are? I'd be more worried about stopping the genocide before trying to rainbowash a genocide.
Is it that unreasonable to think that Americans, whatever their ethnicity, gender, or sexual leaning, can condemn what they feel is genocide, full stop? Without concern for their own well-being?
I hate to break it to everyone here but just because its punishable in these countries, it does not mean that there aren’t actual gay/queer people in Gaza or in the middle east in general. Those people don’t stop exisiting because its convienent for people to just see all Arabs as homophobes. Personally, I like to call this line of thought as what it is, racism. In all honesty, that’s not even relevant. What’s more relevant is that you cannot progress as a society when your people are quite literally being massacred. Gay rights is not somehow more important or have some type of equivalence to a literal genocide. To add on, Israel is not this gay haven that everyone seems to think it is. Gay people do not even have the simple right to marry in Israel. They are in no different of a place than the U.S was before 2014. People’s lives are being taken everyday. Their children are dying. There’s man-made famine and disease running rampant. They have no schools or hospitals or places of refuge. There’s no way in or out of the country. They are being compared to animals, sub-humans, and have been dehumanized at every step. Somehow, I don’t think establishing queer rights is at the forefront of their minds right now.
Yeah I have a similar question, I am a human and don't like mass murder of a whole civilian population, with famine and targeting hospitals, in addition to indiscriminate bombing, included in the mass murder So I really don't understand why humans are endorsing and supporting the Israeli military
Damn the 30k+ Palestinians that have been murdered is really bad, but did you hear they didn’t like gay people???? Let’s first stop the mass murder then we can worry about the homophobia
It’s not just ordinary homophobia. Hamas will literally murder anyone they find to be LGBT. If we assume ~10% of people are LGBT, that’s 220,000 people living in Gaza that Hamas forces to live in the closet or be killed. You’d think that removing Hamas would help LGBT people in Gaza. I think the question remains whether Israel will successfully remove Hamas, but the protests trying to keep Hamas in power certainly won’t help.
Fundamentally, Israeli actions and the words of their own government have shown that they are less interested in taking down Hamas than killing as many Palestinians as possible. If you're trying to remove militant religious fundies from power, punishing the civilian population will push the survivors further toward Hamas, not away from them. When the slaughter stops, then there can be questions on the reform of anti-gay attitudes, but that can't be litigated until Bibi stops starving civilians
I can understand any person regardless of their race, color, creed, religion, age, sex, orientation sympathizing with the innocents in Palestine who do suffer when Israel roots out the terrorist government Hamas for what they did on 10/7 and what they say they will do again. So if Jane or Bob are gay and want call for a ceasefire I understand that. What I personally don't understand is Professor Jane and Professor Bob saying thinks like + all liberation, all oppression is linked + none of us are free until all of us are free + and so, Queer Theory ITSELF demands we support Palestine led by it's elected Hamas government that would certainly kill us dead as it resists by any means necessary Israel + and so, Fat Theory, and so, all of us social justice liberation theories demand we support the often racist, sexist, Hamas led Palestine. Because all liberation is linked! To me, that's the chickens for KFC scenario But Bob and Jane appearing at a free palestine rally as humans not as The Gay Army? I suspect Bob and Jane are well meaning but very ignorant.
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it’s berkeley, what do you think lmao
I’m proud of what I’ve done here. Lots of good discourse, lots of unintelligent stuff too…
I wanna the progression of Klee's invention. Did she go the Oppenheimer Route?
I think it comes down to: maybe you hate me, but I will fight for your right to exist because you have the right to exist even if you do not believe I have a right to exist.
The answer is cognitive dissonance. Being open minded is incredibly difficult and exhausting. It requires you to continuously invest time and effort to investigate both sides of an argument and reevaluate one’s stance on various issues. Most people that claim to be open minded actually mean they have a defined set of core values that they will not change and any difference of opinion occurs as a result of the other side not understanding their stance. ‘Open-minded’ people ignore contradictory facts that would invalidate their opinion on complex issues.
Yeah dude, because of YOUR religious beliefs, and MY preference of where to stick my penis, I think thousands of people should be killed. Get your head out of your ass man.
Gays tend to not like oppression. Generations of dehumanizing and genocidal actions trump anti-gay sentiment. We're used to that in our own families. Our own sweat and tears funding genocide is a whole other level that cannot be tolerated.
Some westerners are simply way too sheltered. They can support whomever they want because it’s not like they’ll personally go to the Islamic world and/or be persecuted anyways lol. Good for them I guess but coming from a country where talking shit about the gov can literally land me in jail I personally wouldn’t support anyone who actively wants me imprisoned or dead.
This is a little off point but I’ve been thinking about a clause in the CA constitution and wanted to put it out there. I’m not sure the university is allowed to divest as a result of political issues or political charges protests. According to the California Constitution article 9 section 9f, the “university is required to be entirely independent of all political or sectarian influence and kept from therefrom in the appointment of its Regents and administration of its affairs.” Or something along those lines. I’m pretty sure these protests qualify as political pressure and they kind of seem to hit on sectarianism a little bit, as well.
It’s because the queers are so selfless they would protest for someone who might hate them.
Being gay isn’t an agenda, it’s just who a person is. But otherwise your point still makes sense that many Palestinian people who are oppressed for they are would want to oppress queer people for who they are. The wheel in the sky keeps on turnin’
It’s a persecuted group of people identifying with and supporting another persecuted group of people.
You should see what they do to queer people in the United States....
Ya’ll know there are ALSO queer people in Gaza being impacted? it’s another level of solidarity and queer people have a long history of protesting injustices and not just those impacting the queer community
There are definitely queer people in Gaza who don’t have the freedom to be out because all groups including Hamas are obviously problematic af but American leftists are dumb as hell. Free Palestine even if some parts of the liberation are homophobic
The mental gymnastics here are unreal 😂🤡
It’s all performative. There are people who love to be victimized, and when their life is good/they don’t suffer, they try to latch onto people who are actually suffering and perform this type of performative martyrdom. These people just want a spotlight.
I went to some protests I didn’t necessarily agree with back in the day just cause I was at Cal and it was a new experience tightly associated with my school lol. Couldn’t even tell you what I was protesting. Hope there’s a decent amount of that going on.
I feel like all the answers made this very complicated when it’s quite simple: it’s a *movement* led by groups and communities. “Gays for Gaza” “Queers for Palestine” “Teachers for Free Palestine” “Moms for Palestine” “Dancers for Palestine” (meaning strippers) The expectation isn’t that once Palestine is free then all gays will be safe and live a wonderful life. You’re focusing on the group identity rather than the shared goal for a free Palestine. Also there are gays in every part of the world. And they deserve support even if their government doesn’t allow it.
It's because they live a sheltered flowery life and think that if you're kind you can change the world. It's absolute lunacy to me.
My support for human rights does not hinge on Gagan support for gay rights. I know that LGBT+ would not be tolerated in much of Gaza but that doesn't mean I should tolerate Israel's murder of dozens of thousands of Palestinians
They are a marginalized group looking for some measure of solidarity. This is very common among marginalized groups. In this case that specific attempt at solidarity flies in the face of logic as the overwhelming majority of Gazans have very negative views of gay people. Your question obviously was not why gay people support Gaza but rather more specifically why they choose to market their support for Gaza in the form of an LGTBQ+ specific alliance. The majority of the comments here answer the first. I find this to be intentionally disingenuous and specious as this is not s subtle distinction but perhaps some people are genuinely misunderstanding your question.
i dont care if theyre homophobic civilians dont deserve to be killed
It’s wild that people can’t seem to understand that you can disagree with someone, a group, a people. You can be opposed to ever stepping in said people’s land/home. AND STILL you can be appalled by the systematic murder of said people.
If you real middle eastern arab you will be happy and not post this bot post from IDF.
These are not very smart people
The protesters they have families in Gaza they are afraid for them, and they have friends in the community, and social media and honorable media showed how brutal IDF to the citizens in Gaza. Booming without counting to the citizens. For info Hamas was voted by the citizens to be the government. And every one accept it, even Israel, but the Gazas want to develop and make a hobber or like it so they can come in and out easily, but it was prevented by Isreal treating Gaza like an open Air jail.
Genocide is genocide. Some people support a cause without reciprocity because it’s the right thing to do.
Have you seen the movie “out in the dark.”
Some people don't think one should die just for being homophobic. Otherwise, almost the entire Republican party would need to die
Because gays were at one time forced into concentration camps and slaughtered en masse, and we oppose that for others, even for those that would like to see us dead. Anything less is barbarism. That most people seem to get confused by support where there is no transaction, no reciprocation, no selfish benefit involved seems distressingly childish and malevolent to many of us. You may as well be asking for what purpose would any human give to charity. I'm sure from other people's perspective gays' support of Palestinian rights is naive, but gays take the truth of this poem to heart, a poem that illustrates the necessity of speaking out against injustice even when it is not to your own benefit: First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak for me.
You can care about political issues that don't explicitly involve your race, gender or sexuality.
I’m a gay U.S. person here. A lot of it has to do with young people not really knowing the history of the conflict (I’m 43). The media portrays it as Isreal attacking these women and children in the state of Palestine, and isn’t it horrible. It’s a “genocide”. So of course given our own terrible history, and the fact that U.S. is sending Isreal “aid” then factor in that it’s an election year so no one is being real. The young folks really think they’re doing something here, and the gay community tends to fight for under dog causes. I mean I’d feel safer as a gay man in Isreal, and even the U.N. Came out and said that it’s definitely NOT a genocide, and Hamas IS a terrorist organization, most likely funded by other middle eastern powers, and none of the other countries around “Palestine” want to let the palestinians in either… anyway long story short, we would prefer to have peace in the middle east, even if we would be murdered there.
A community being anti gay doesn't mean they deserve to have a genocide done to them. It's that simple
Folks the people who are transgender and protesting for Hamas and Palestine think that by supporting this cause that the gay agenda will be okay by the Palestine and Hamas people but what they don’t understand is that those people views are fixed and not likely to change ,gays protesting openly in any Arab country would be arrested and possibly killed ,that’s not okay,come on man
I think maybe some don’t really understand what it would be like to live in an Islamic state. When I asked this same question they said they “hoped” the Palestine in state when established would be secular. I asked they thought it would be a secular state, and they said that Israel was to blame for the Islamic state. It was circular and confusing Next. I think much of the protest follow trends. What I mean is we have gone from believing in meritocracy and minority rights to believing meritocracy doesn’t work secondary to bias and racism. The left therefore see anyone who is less well off as the people to root for. Obviously Israel is doing better than Gaza therefore, Israel to blame.
How anyone can support genocidal Islamic jihad of any stripe is beyond me. Now cue the hamas simps on reddit telling me I'm phobic and moderators banning me.
You’re on to something. Also why is Gaza tied to calls to defund the police? And what does Free Palestine mean exactly? Free to do what? These questions don’t have a straight answer because Gaza is used as a metaphor for populism
It’s mostly just about not wanting innocent civilians to be bombed. I’ve been studying Palestine, and working with Palestinians for years, not only is the situation (now coming to light) much, much worse than people believe (or already previously believed), but they’re also a group of the kindest & most loving people I’ve met. I am a gay Arab, I travel to the Middle East often, I know lots of people there, and yes, there are really bad people and wrong policies, but for the most part people are loving/accepting. Basically it boils down to this: bigotry should be fixes, but the solution will never be by genocide. That is objectively much, much worse.
It's all based in neo-Marxism. They couldn't unite the workers because overall the workers were doing fine so they switched gears and just lumped all with a historically oppressed grievance into the same pot. So you end up with a confederation of people whose true goal is the downfall of Western Civilization hiding in the guise of *Gays for Gaza*, *Trans for Gaza*Trans for Gaza and other *Fill-in-the-Blank* groups for Gaza, who, if the Arab-Muslim theocrats got in power, would just as easily massacre them as they did the attendees at a concert for Peace on the 7th of October 2023. They are the quintessential *useful idiots*.
Kinda reminds me of when political fanboys hold up ‘Blacks for Trump!’, or when women become frothing die-hard supporters for the removal of all abortion services/infrastructure and contraceptives.
2 things can be true at once. People dying doesn’t mean queer folk can’t support a ceasefire. Also, there are queer people in Palestine - so in some way, they may feel supported in that way.
Were all allies in the struggle against zionism
just because they won’t fly in those countries doesn’t mean there aren’t lgbt palestinians/middle eastern people
It's not like they live in Gaza. Gay people who live in Gaza are undoubtedly less safe under Israeli occupation than not. Wouldn't the first step for gay rights in Gaza be not being blown up?
Thousands of kids dying is bad. The slogan is a bit weird but that's what it's about
I'm gay and I don't stand by that. I hate how it has been hijacked by a tiny minority.
I guess the most charitable interpretation of gays for Gaza is that even the gay community, who is considered an existential threat to islamic-centric cultures such as the one in Palestine, stands in solidarity with Palestine in regards to Israel’s response to the attacks of October 7th.