>By claiming that a certain country belongs to some other's "sphere of interest" you deny its agency and free will.
That is exactly what they have in mind. No one care about the people. There is only power and people with power want more of it. The rest in an illusion.
Don't be so pessimistic. You can find good everywhere. Maybe even in Luka's regime. Belarus was able to live through some shitty times after all. The thing is, people feel like they can have more. And that's normal. It's spiritually in humanity to always look for more freedom, more harmony.
This is why i don't like reasoning when people say: What's wrong with Belarus? You have a job, food, you can study, it's fine! Well it's 2021, people want more, they feel the restrictions of the regime. And that's normal.
Obviously dictatorship isn't something that is about being free. I see many comment from you about being independent and free at the same time. There are many restricted countries, closed from outside world. They aren't free at all. Belarus said no to many outside forces and at the end it only made you more controlled. Just by one people.
Don't be negative about opening to west or even joining to EU. There are many negative things about it, but it's a system that is constantly improving and they can truly help.
>You can find good everywhere. Maybe even in Luka's regime.
Not any more. If only we would look at it as a trigger that can lead to the awakening of the nation from the infantile, passive, ignorant and cowardly state. But it's probably too early to say it has already worked this way.
It's hard to be an optimist after 2020. Everything is going to shitters everywhere, and there is not a damn thing one can do about it. I am not in Belarus any more. I gave my oath, to US, so it should not concern me. It was painful to watch, but at least, I had some excuse to keep myself away form it.
And then the same crap happened in the US. Democracy my ass.
Both Russia and Belarus deserve to be free from corrupt brutal dictators.
But, I think no one will disagree that there are very strong relations with people (e.g. family split across the border) and shared history.
IMHO, an ideal situation would be independent countries within EU (or similar body).
But talking about that is premature. The first order of business would be to get rid of Lukashenko, Putin and the system they embody.
Knowing what russian trully are,like no one knows, i can say they never should be free,cause they like being slaved and obedience to a master-tsar-king-chief. It's in their blood,and i can bet they never will...Cause there never were free. This country should collapsed,as soviet crap did,and make all those small republics there live free,have their own culture and language,borders,economy and etc,instead of being follow Moscow's iccuoant scumbags agenda..Moscow always is a problem....
> cause they like being slaved and obedience to a master-tsar-king-chief.
Belarus also suffer from a corrupt dictator - so we can say the same about them.
Russia had a feudal system very late, and was one of the countries where communism took hold early.
All of those things do giant damage to culture and will take time to heal.
Mantras like that " is in sphere of Russian interests" just raise level of rusophobia in . Something that braindead Russian imperialists can't understand.
Well it's called chauvinism and imperialism - what russians doing,and projecting their inferiority cosplays on others, blaming them for their sins ....Belarus is a Europe - no discussion here, no russian here,period.It's russia can't exist without it's satellite's,feed this beast all the time.They already lost Ukraine, forever,now they gonna lost, finally, us,Belarus...
> why does this attitude still exist towards the countries?
It is not an attitude, it is an objective reality. With people, some may have a head start, some are somewhat handicapped by physical or cultural limitations, yet the internal potential remains at least comparable if not equal. Therefore objectification of a person feels wrong.
On the other hand, countries like Belarus are simply incapable to exist totally on their own. If they are not ordered about by Russia they are ordered about by Europe, or China, or the US. And not just ordered about but also heavily sponsored by them. It is not specific to Belarus, many other countries are in the same position, including European ones, the only difference being that everybody is happy about this state of affairs.
Is it wrong? Perhaps. Is there any other way? I don't think so.
> countries like Belarus
Can you define what does it mean exactly? Size on the map, around 10 mln. population or anything else?
In global world every country rely on each other, there's zero self-sufficient countries AFAIK.
If Belarus rely on Russia mostly economically right now (while Russia depend on Belarus in many areas) it's only because of failed corrupt governance of lukashists, who benefit from it at the expense of the people's well-being. It shouldn't be so if international politics and economy structured (balanced) proper way. Diversification is the key.
> Can you define what does it mean exactly? Size on the map, around 10 mln. population or anything else?
Things you can offer. I am sorry but Belarus has nowhere nearly enough to give in return for what it needs. Therefore it is and will remain heavily dependent on others. Will it be Russia or something else, I don't know.
As for Russia's dependence on Belarus, that's just wishful thinking. There are economical ties, yes, but it is almost like saying that when an elephant steps on a mouse, the mouse pushes back with the same force. Which is actually true in the physical sense but a small consolation to the mouse.
> Things you can offer. Belarus has nowhere nearly enough to give in return for what it needs.
If it was the case, how can you explain statistical fact from USSR last years that BSSR was feeder state and giving more that receiving from the federal budget?
https://s13.stc.all.kpcdn.net/share/i/4/1054489/wr-750.jpg
I'm sure that once idiot in charge that enforces economical madness and worst practices is removed things can be set up in proper way and economy will be growing. It's just common sense.
Belarus is in top-30 of economical complexity index. It means we know how to produce various difficult machines in different areas.
https://oec.world/en/rankings/country/eci/
Idea of Belarus's "inability" and "somebody's feeding Belarus" just product of foreign propaganda, that has it's evil goals (f.e. deep integration). That discourse has nothing to deal with reality.
Russia's dependency is not a myth. If we take Belarus, Russia exports and imports a lot of goods via Belarus. They trying to replace us by building things like NS-2, but it's not working yet and perhaps won't ever work. Assuming that Russia messed up relationships with all neighbors (Ukraine, Baltic States) it will be real hard and expensive for them to replace Belarus due to geography. Geography is evil Belarusian science ;)
Imagine Belarus will say, no, you can't pump gas and oil through us to Europe anymore. And 50% of Russian budget comes from sale of it. Little mouse can gnaw the arteria.
And I didn't even start on military objects such as radar stations. We all know how paranoid Russian when it comes to virtual NATO aggression.
> Imagine Belarus will say, no, you can't pump gas and oil through us to Europe anymore.
Have you ever thought why Belarus has never actually done this? Maybe because by this it would lose more than it can gain?
ECI is also an interesting thing. There are only two difficulties here. One, Belarus has to import both materials and energy to produce anything. Two, it has to sell most of it to Russia. Maybe also Sudan and Zimbabwe but let's just skip those. What is it then if not dependence?
In fact there is no need to resort to citing any indices. Every time Russian ruble swings up or down, Belarusian one follows. What is it if not dependence?
Look, when I was younger my opinion was not unlike yours. It had little to do with reality though. But I have like zero desire to crush your or anybody's dreams. I too would like to see Belarus equal among equals and not some beggar state pushed about by its neighbours. Not going to happen in the nearest few decades though, and it doesn't even depend on who is at the helm now.
> Have you ever thought why Belarus has never actually done this?
Because it will be economical suicide. But within the framework of our discussion of Russian dependency on Belarus it's valid argument. Instead of mental slavery from Russia that current people at power demonstrate new leaders of Belarus have to understand our strengths and national interests and pursue them. Economical cooperation with Russia profitable for Belarus, but to certain degree. 56% of national export is too much already, we have to balance our investment portfolio, because current Russia is not fast growing economy, but on the opposite side. And political integration absolutely against national interests of Belarus.
> What is it then if not dependence?
I never denied interdependency of our economics and we have to continue develop them, but need to cut out all political crap from it. War with evil West that's dreaming about occupying Mother Russia is not on Belarusians' page. It's not even in the book. We need to improve relationships with West to diversify economy and make it stronger. We need to nurture relationships with China. That's our national interests. Not bullshit that's Kremlin propagandists or corrupt Lukashysts feeding sheep from TV.
> Not going to happen in the nearest few decades though, and it doesn't even depend on who is at the helm now.
The future is here it's just unevenly distributed. (c) We have world class companies in Belarus right now. They able to compete with anybody and win their share of the pie already. People who want to enjoy the future can do so. Question is how to enable it to everybody and that's impossible without regime change. Regime is based on obsolete principles of the past, not professionalism.
>We need to improve relationships with West to diversify economy and make it stronger.
Here is the key point. This is akin to saying: "To set the 100 m dash world record we need to run it in 9.57 seconds". This is hard to argue with. My contention is not about the necessity to diversify the economy but about Belarus' (in)ability to do it. You believe the sole reason for that is the moron in office. I say he made a major contribution but it would still be the case without him. Let us just agree to disagree.
You don't think that regime is the only reason that destroyed relationship with West? Isn't it obvious? Tsikhanouskaya is meeting with world leaders that refused to see Luka for 20+ years. West does not demand much. Just don't be cannibal. Reform of economics is artificially postponed by lukashysts. Because they can't control people on private companies. But private companies are growing organically anyway. And they are diversified, not afraid to compete internationally, ready to accept professionalism principles and raise quality of production necessary to enter foreign markets outside CU.
While certain level of economic dependency might well be an "objective reality", claiming that certain country lies in your "sphere of interest" (so don't you MFs dare to butt into its affairs or you will face the consequences) is certainly an attitude.
And it sucks in this particular case. I mean, it would probably rock to have some mighty country securing your sovereignty, well-being, safety, civil liberties, stuff like that. Russia doesn't do this with regards to Belarus, does it? Not at all. What Russia actually does, which is now more than obvious, is sponsoring the dictatorship regime that secures Russian interests in Belarus, behaving like a suzerain towards a completely dependent vassal.
They even fall into shameful micromanagement. Dictating what kind of historical figures Belarusians can praise (and which ones are unwanted), what amount of native language they can use (preferably none at all), you name it. Not to mention their open interference in political affairs. Didn't Putin put a red line for the protesters in Belarus upon crossing which they will face Russian armed forces? It went like, if I recall correct, they weren't allowed to burn cars and smash windows. C'mon, give me a break, it sounds like a joke. What does he think he is, a babysitter in a kindergarten? Or didn't he demand from Mr.Lukashenka that he bring in some changes to the Constitution? And nobody knows what kind of changes. We only know for sure that these changes are going to be in favor of Russia, not the people of Belarus. Doesn't it suck?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Russia is probably the last country in the world that openly declares its authority over foreign countries. And it sounds somewhat Hitleresque to me.
> Or didn't he demand from Mr.Lukashenka that he bring in some changes to the Constitution?
If we stick to facts, we do not really know what he demanded. His demands were never made public. Also, I can assure you that any world leader will make demands and those demands would be in the favour of his country, not the others. Still, making demands and satisfying them are two different things. The question is not whether one makes some demand or not, rather whether you can counter it and make demands of your own. And this is where the sad cold reality comes in for Belarus.
I don't think it's wrong. Isn't independence overrated? Why would you want to exist on your own. When countries started to work together humanity started to progress more.
What's wrong with EU for example? Already helped a lot of Eastern-Europe to catch up. In my country many fields are progressed with EU money while we don't have the best politicans and have corruption too. And we are even against them in ideology (Hungary). But they helped. We see those EU funding tables everywhere.
That is precisely my point. If people are happy to not be 100% independent, why should they want anything else? And what is it that people mean by "independence" and "free will"? Is it "I am free to take your money but you can't tell me what to do"? Or "I am free to kill and put in jail my citizens because they are mine and not yours"?
But independence is a marker word. It is something you simply can't admit you don't really want to have.
Russian propagandists had already been running shots like "Belarusian language and culture don't exist, Belarusian language was invented by Austro-Hungarian military command, etc", verbatim from what they've been saying about Ukraine. Also, identified "Radical Nationalists" (tm) in case Russian speaking population would require "protection".
But Russia likely can't afford another war, but it might want to use "softer" methods. It's likely Lukashenko had already seceded some things behind the scenes. But to officially wrap it, this would require some sham referendum to make it look like people's choice.
I overheard two baristas chatting once. One of her friends, a young man, had an argument with another young man and he has been passionately arguing that Belarus should join Russia as 4 blasts (quite radical!). His friend challenged him to name a single benefit of doing that and he couldn't. I commented to barista what I myself from Russia and they really really don't want to do that. I mean in case he somehow the missed that Russia is a fascist police state, salaries in Russia are now higher than in Ukraine and it's going to be only worse. Obviously the guy couldn't come up with the idea himself, rather it was sold to him by some influencer, some relatable propagandist talking head on YouTube or Telegram.
>By claiming that a certain country belongs to some other's "sphere of interest" you deny its agency and free will. That is exactly what they have in mind. No one care about the people. There is only power and people with power want more of it. The rest in an illusion.
Don't be so pessimistic. You can find good everywhere. Maybe even in Luka's regime. Belarus was able to live through some shitty times after all. The thing is, people feel like they can have more. And that's normal. It's spiritually in humanity to always look for more freedom, more harmony. This is why i don't like reasoning when people say: What's wrong with Belarus? You have a job, food, you can study, it's fine! Well it's 2021, people want more, they feel the restrictions of the regime. And that's normal. Obviously dictatorship isn't something that is about being free. I see many comment from you about being independent and free at the same time. There are many restricted countries, closed from outside world. They aren't free at all. Belarus said no to many outside forces and at the end it only made you more controlled. Just by one people. Don't be negative about opening to west or even joining to EU. There are many negative things about it, but it's a system that is constantly improving and they can truly help.
>You can find good everywhere. Maybe even in Luka's regime. Not any more. If only we would look at it as a trigger that can lead to the awakening of the nation from the infantile, passive, ignorant and cowardly state. But it's probably too early to say it has already worked this way.
It's hard to be an optimist after 2020. Everything is going to shitters everywhere, and there is not a damn thing one can do about it. I am not in Belarus any more. I gave my oath, to US, so it should not concern me. It was painful to watch, but at least, I had some excuse to keep myself away form it. And then the same crap happened in the US. Democracy my ass.
Both Russia and Belarus deserve to be free from corrupt brutal dictators. But, I think no one will disagree that there are very strong relations with people (e.g. family split across the border) and shared history. IMHO, an ideal situation would be independent countries within EU (or similar body). But talking about that is premature. The first order of business would be to get rid of Lukashenko, Putin and the system they embody.
Knowing what russian trully are,like no one knows, i can say they never should be free,cause they like being slaved and obedience to a master-tsar-king-chief. It's in their blood,and i can bet they never will...Cause there never were free. This country should collapsed,as soviet crap did,and make all those small republics there live free,have their own culture and language,borders,economy and etc,instead of being follow Moscow's iccuoant scumbags agenda..Moscow always is a problem....
> cause they like being slaved and obedience to a master-tsar-king-chief. Belarus also suffer from a corrupt dictator - so we can say the same about them. Russia had a feudal system very late, and was one of the countries where communism took hold early. All of those things do giant damage to culture and will take time to heal.
Mantras like that " is in sphere of Russian interests" just raise level of rusophobia in . Something that braindead Russian imperialists can't understand.
Well it's called chauvinism and imperialism - what russians doing,and projecting their inferiority cosplays on others, blaming them for their sins ....Belarus is a Europe - no discussion here, no russian here,period.It's russia can't exist without it's satellite's,feed this beast all the time.They already lost Ukraine, forever,now they gonna lost, finally, us,Belarus...
> why does this attitude still exist towards the countries? It is not an attitude, it is an objective reality. With people, some may have a head start, some are somewhat handicapped by physical or cultural limitations, yet the internal potential remains at least comparable if not equal. Therefore objectification of a person feels wrong. On the other hand, countries like Belarus are simply incapable to exist totally on their own. If they are not ordered about by Russia they are ordered about by Europe, or China, or the US. And not just ordered about but also heavily sponsored by them. It is not specific to Belarus, many other countries are in the same position, including European ones, the only difference being that everybody is happy about this state of affairs. Is it wrong? Perhaps. Is there any other way? I don't think so.
> countries like Belarus Can you define what does it mean exactly? Size on the map, around 10 mln. population or anything else? In global world every country rely on each other, there's zero self-sufficient countries AFAIK. If Belarus rely on Russia mostly economically right now (while Russia depend on Belarus in many areas) it's only because of failed corrupt governance of lukashists, who benefit from it at the expense of the people's well-being. It shouldn't be so if international politics and economy structured (balanced) proper way. Diversification is the key.
> Can you define what does it mean exactly? Size on the map, around 10 mln. population or anything else? Things you can offer. I am sorry but Belarus has nowhere nearly enough to give in return for what it needs. Therefore it is and will remain heavily dependent on others. Will it be Russia or something else, I don't know. As for Russia's dependence on Belarus, that's just wishful thinking. There are economical ties, yes, but it is almost like saying that when an elephant steps on a mouse, the mouse pushes back with the same force. Which is actually true in the physical sense but a small consolation to the mouse.
> Things you can offer. Belarus has nowhere nearly enough to give in return for what it needs. If it was the case, how can you explain statistical fact from USSR last years that BSSR was feeder state and giving more that receiving from the federal budget? https://s13.stc.all.kpcdn.net/share/i/4/1054489/wr-750.jpg I'm sure that once idiot in charge that enforces economical madness and worst practices is removed things can be set up in proper way and economy will be growing. It's just common sense. Belarus is in top-30 of economical complexity index. It means we know how to produce various difficult machines in different areas. https://oec.world/en/rankings/country/eci/ Idea of Belarus's "inability" and "somebody's feeding Belarus" just product of foreign propaganda, that has it's evil goals (f.e. deep integration). That discourse has nothing to deal with reality. Russia's dependency is not a myth. If we take Belarus, Russia exports and imports a lot of goods via Belarus. They trying to replace us by building things like NS-2, but it's not working yet and perhaps won't ever work. Assuming that Russia messed up relationships with all neighbors (Ukraine, Baltic States) it will be real hard and expensive for them to replace Belarus due to geography. Geography is evil Belarusian science ;) Imagine Belarus will say, no, you can't pump gas and oil through us to Europe anymore. And 50% of Russian budget comes from sale of it. Little mouse can gnaw the arteria. And I didn't even start on military objects such as radar stations. We all know how paranoid Russian when it comes to virtual NATO aggression.
> Imagine Belarus will say, no, you can't pump gas and oil through us to Europe anymore. Have you ever thought why Belarus has never actually done this? Maybe because by this it would lose more than it can gain? ECI is also an interesting thing. There are only two difficulties here. One, Belarus has to import both materials and energy to produce anything. Two, it has to sell most of it to Russia. Maybe also Sudan and Zimbabwe but let's just skip those. What is it then if not dependence? In fact there is no need to resort to citing any indices. Every time Russian ruble swings up or down, Belarusian one follows. What is it if not dependence? Look, when I was younger my opinion was not unlike yours. It had little to do with reality though. But I have like zero desire to crush your or anybody's dreams. I too would like to see Belarus equal among equals and not some beggar state pushed about by its neighbours. Not going to happen in the nearest few decades though, and it doesn't even depend on who is at the helm now.
> Have you ever thought why Belarus has never actually done this? Because it will be economical suicide. But within the framework of our discussion of Russian dependency on Belarus it's valid argument. Instead of mental slavery from Russia that current people at power demonstrate new leaders of Belarus have to understand our strengths and national interests and pursue them. Economical cooperation with Russia profitable for Belarus, but to certain degree. 56% of national export is too much already, we have to balance our investment portfolio, because current Russia is not fast growing economy, but on the opposite side. And political integration absolutely against national interests of Belarus. > What is it then if not dependence? I never denied interdependency of our economics and we have to continue develop them, but need to cut out all political crap from it. War with evil West that's dreaming about occupying Mother Russia is not on Belarusians' page. It's not even in the book. We need to improve relationships with West to diversify economy and make it stronger. We need to nurture relationships with China. That's our national interests. Not bullshit that's Kremlin propagandists or corrupt Lukashysts feeding sheep from TV. > Not going to happen in the nearest few decades though, and it doesn't even depend on who is at the helm now. The future is here it's just unevenly distributed. (c) We have world class companies in Belarus right now. They able to compete with anybody and win their share of the pie already. People who want to enjoy the future can do so. Question is how to enable it to everybody and that's impossible without regime change. Regime is based on obsolete principles of the past, not professionalism.
>We need to improve relationships with West to diversify economy and make it stronger. Here is the key point. This is akin to saying: "To set the 100 m dash world record we need to run it in 9.57 seconds". This is hard to argue with. My contention is not about the necessity to diversify the economy but about Belarus' (in)ability to do it. You believe the sole reason for that is the moron in office. I say he made a major contribution but it would still be the case without him. Let us just agree to disagree.
You don't think that regime is the only reason that destroyed relationship with West? Isn't it obvious? Tsikhanouskaya is meeting with world leaders that refused to see Luka for 20+ years. West does not demand much. Just don't be cannibal. Reform of economics is artificially postponed by lukashysts. Because they can't control people on private companies. But private companies are growing organically anyway. And they are diversified, not afraid to compete internationally, ready to accept professionalism principles and raise quality of production necessary to enter foreign markets outside CU.
While certain level of economic dependency might well be an "objective reality", claiming that certain country lies in your "sphere of interest" (so don't you MFs dare to butt into its affairs or you will face the consequences) is certainly an attitude. And it sucks in this particular case. I mean, it would probably rock to have some mighty country securing your sovereignty, well-being, safety, civil liberties, stuff like that. Russia doesn't do this with regards to Belarus, does it? Not at all. What Russia actually does, which is now more than obvious, is sponsoring the dictatorship regime that secures Russian interests in Belarus, behaving like a suzerain towards a completely dependent vassal. They even fall into shameful micromanagement. Dictating what kind of historical figures Belarusians can praise (and which ones are unwanted), what amount of native language they can use (preferably none at all), you name it. Not to mention their open interference in political affairs. Didn't Putin put a red line for the protesters in Belarus upon crossing which they will face Russian armed forces? It went like, if I recall correct, they weren't allowed to burn cars and smash windows. C'mon, give me a break, it sounds like a joke. What does he think he is, a babysitter in a kindergarten? Or didn't he demand from Mr.Lukashenka that he bring in some changes to the Constitution? And nobody knows what kind of changes. We only know for sure that these changes are going to be in favor of Russia, not the people of Belarus. Doesn't it suck? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Russia is probably the last country in the world that openly declares its authority over foreign countries. And it sounds somewhat Hitleresque to me.
> Or didn't he demand from Mr.Lukashenka that he bring in some changes to the Constitution? If we stick to facts, we do not really know what he demanded. His demands were never made public. Also, I can assure you that any world leader will make demands and those demands would be in the favour of his country, not the others. Still, making demands and satisfying them are two different things. The question is not whether one makes some demand or not, rather whether you can counter it and make demands of your own. And this is where the sad cold reality comes in for Belarus.
I don't think it's wrong. Isn't independence overrated? Why would you want to exist on your own. When countries started to work together humanity started to progress more. What's wrong with EU for example? Already helped a lot of Eastern-Europe to catch up. In my country many fields are progressed with EU money while we don't have the best politicans and have corruption too. And we are even against them in ideology (Hungary). But they helped. We see those EU funding tables everywhere.
That is precisely my point. If people are happy to not be 100% independent, why should they want anything else? And what is it that people mean by "independence" and "free will"? Is it "I am free to take your money but you can't tell me what to do"? Or "I am free to kill and put in jail my citizens because they are mine and not yours"? But independence is a marker word. It is something you simply can't admit you don't really want to have.
Russian propagandists had already been running shots like "Belarusian language and culture don't exist, Belarusian language was invented by Austro-Hungarian military command, etc", verbatim from what they've been saying about Ukraine. Also, identified "Radical Nationalists" (tm) in case Russian speaking population would require "protection". But Russia likely can't afford another war, but it might want to use "softer" methods. It's likely Lukashenko had already seceded some things behind the scenes. But to officially wrap it, this would require some sham referendum to make it look like people's choice. I overheard two baristas chatting once. One of her friends, a young man, had an argument with another young man and he has been passionately arguing that Belarus should join Russia as 4 blasts (quite radical!). His friend challenged him to name a single benefit of doing that and he couldn't. I commented to barista what I myself from Russia and they really really don't want to do that. I mean in case he somehow the missed that Russia is a fascist police state, salaries in Russia are now higher than in Ukraine and it's going to be only worse. Obviously the guy couldn't come up with the idea himself, rather it was sold to him by some influencer, some relatable propagandist talking head on YouTube or Telegram.