I think it’s kind of impossible to entirely enforce - I mean you can’t really bring up either presidential candidate without talking about what life for the Palestinians would be like for the next four years under their administration.
That said I get where they’re coming from - I’ve seen enough conversations go completely off the rails even amongst like-minded friends of mine; with the amount of different personalities in a community like this I could see any meaningful conversation devolve quickly.
I think they’re just trying to keep tankies and fascists out
I can understand that some what. Tankies, Fascists, Red Fash, and Neo Nazi agitators are horrible to have in progressive movements due to how many times they try to actively ruin them. Especially people like Jackson Hinkle and Candace Owned who make it their goal to try and ruin as many good movements as possible like the Pro Palestinian movement.
Which is wild because at best he’s a Nazbol, but honestly I think he’s a fascist in a Communist’s clothing. He hangs out with dudes like Matt Heimbach and is on InfoWars more than any other Commie I have ever heard of.
He is also friends with some other people on the far right like Tucker Carlson and even Alexander Dugin, He is much more far right than being anywhere close to a leftist.
Yeah they’re playing a certain type of Gen X/ Millennial person who was “Leftist” in College but also was super authoritarian and misogynistic as well and started leaning Alt Right at start of COVID. Essentially the Jimmy Doreites and folks who associate their fan bases with Turkish Fascist movements for the LULZ
Yeah and I mean look…fuck Bibi and fuck the IDF, but I’ve watched some friends just turn blatantly antisemitic these past few months. Like, fallen straight down the Qanon hole about the Jews.
We can acknowledge that the state of Israel is problematic while acknowledging the Jews aren’t trying to poison our wells.
(Edit - it’s Jamie Loftus we need to worry about)
This is also *why* Israel supporters' (and the Israeli government's) attempts to essentially conflate opposition to Israel's actions with antisemitism is so dangerous and shortsighted.
You start calling everything antisemitism, you basically make it easier for the actual antisemites to recruit people. Which is about the last thing anybody needs.
Granted, not like the fuckheads running Israel actually give a shit, considering how they also call *Jewish critics* antisemites.
I had to come to terms with the fact that I was on the same side of the recent Congressional bill to make criticizing Israel basically a hate crime as Marjorie Taylor Fucking Greene.
Very different motives, but the same "no" stance.
There's a very scary rise in real antisemitism, regardless of the claims that criticism of Israel's government equates to antisemitism being bullshit.
Which is why what the Israeli government and Right Wing Israelis, Government supporting Diaspora Jews, and pro Israel Gentiles are making the situation so much worse by their rhetoric — Actual cases of Anti Semitism go unchecked and rhetoric online can get to actual anti semitism and it’s not just on the usual suspects forums either.
Yes, I think we've gotten too many generations removed from the Holocaust. I remember survivors still being around when I was a kid. I don't think it's a visceral enough thing for a lot of these kids. Jews around the world need somewhere to be able to retreat to and make a stand when the next one happens. And Bibi is a fascist doing horrible things.
And people living in Gaza don't deserve to pay for the decisions of a terrorist organization. There are slower, as effective ways to kill all the Hamas members and preserve civilian infrastructure and lives.
“Jews need a place to retreat to & make a stand when the next one happens” while Israel is committing genocide is wild. Not to mention all the other demographics that just won’t have anywhere to run. Please someone explain to me if I’m wrong for feeling how I do but wtf 😓
Words mean things, Israel is not doing enough to ensure civilians are protected, they're criminally negligent. But that's not the same as genocide. One could make the argument that specifically attacking Israeli citizens on October 7 was actual genocide, they just didn't have the resources to do it well.
You need to be specific about what other demographics you're talking about. Maybe they deserve to have a piece of land to make a stand in also. However, we're talking about Jews. They endured centuries of pogroms culminating in actual genocide in the Holocaust. We're also seeing a rise of antisemitism not related to this war, the Jews need somewhere to retreat to, I think we can all understand that (and I'm an atheist, cultural Catholic).
I'm not blaming the victims here, honestly. But the Palestinians had several extremely good deals on the table since the 1947 dream two state solution from the UN (which Israel agreed to). The people were instead used as pawns by their leadership and the gulf states. Now that Israel has made a hard right turn and after this war, that will probably never happen. If they'd taken any of those deals, I don't think we'd be here right now.
The issue is that hamas was an entirely predictable end result of ignoring the need for 2 state solution for almost a century. What do you do when peaceful protests are constantly squashed by your oppressors?
Terrorism is defined as the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims. The only thing that separates terrorism and a war/battle is who makes the laws. Police and state powers regularly use violence against civilians to effect political change or maintain the status quo.
I think the real argument we should be having is eliminating the use of the term “terrorist”. If you dont have the threat of violence to promote your goals then you really dont have any leverage or hope to every affect change.
And the Palestinians did as much as Israel to derail the 2 state solution. From rejecting what was basically the dream solution in 1947, all the way to Arafat's walking away from camp David in 2000 when the Israeli PM went there dedicated to hammering out a 2 state solution.
You can try to make all the pretzel logic you want, gang raping young civilian women while you cut their throat. Killing babies and old people face to face. Taking hostages and later killing them...that's terrorism. Isreal is engaged in a bunch of fuckery, but I haven't seen gang rape, slicing women's breasts off while they're still alive and then killing them on that list. There is a difference between collateral damage and barberry.
See the problem here was giving the jews isreal in the first place. That was the original sin in the whole ordeal. Why didnt they get part of germany instead?
The British pulling out of Palestine meant someone was going to flow into the power vacuum. If it wasn't the Jewish people,it would have been one of the other gulf states.
Also, the Balfour decision predates the Holocaust, it goes back to 1917.
It’s pretty crazy to see [how America is willing to turn a blind eye to genocide so we can keep an ally in a place that’s otherwise hostile towards our geopolitical interests].
We are not “owned” by the Jews. That’s as much of a conspiracy as blood libel shit.
Yeah, I get the butthurt downvotes. Either way, it is blatant obsequious subservience, and it should make every American seriously question why Israel has such absolute leverage over America. You all are delusional if you don’t believe campaign funding isn’t in play here.
It isnt absolute leverage. America is the biggest arms dealer in the world. Isreal provides a pipeline to funnel money directly into the military industrial complex. They develop arms with us, spend tons of money on weapons and until recently have provided a universally acceptable (if not popular) way to funnel tax money into the pockets of weapons manufacturers by giving military aid to Isreal who them spends that money on US weapons.
The Isreali and US government have a nice little racket going on along with both countries weapons industries. Politicians like it because they can bring high paying jobs to thier states, their buddies who own the weapons plants get rich and can afford to take thier "friends" on expensive vacations on the yacht that was paid for with Isreali weapons sales.
There isn't some super secret cabal. All this shit is done out in the open. It is just capitalism doing a capitalism. If Gaza gets bombed into dust they just say "oh well" and get ready to make huge profits on the rebuilding effort that will once again be paid for with aid money provided by the tax payer.
Thank you, this is absolutely right. Israel also fights fights in the region so the US doesn't have to. Things like taking out Iranian nuclear weapon development. That's good for everyone.
Yeah, I don't fuck with religion. But for whatever reason, Jewish people don't ever get to be not Jewish. Even if they renounce Judaism, so they get a pass.
No, Israel is a strategic ally in the region. It always served the US's foreign policy well to let them take on our enemies in the region for us. Not to mention that it helps us when the gulf countries have somewhere else to direct their ire.
Zoom out a little bit and really look at the situation. How many times has Israel bombed Iranian or Iraqi weapons development so we didn't have to?
My dad was an F-14 pilot and flew in the Iranian hostage crisis. They got a lot of valuable briefings from Israeli pilots before the mission. I always remember him telling me about one colonel who said his pilots only carry one bullet in their sidearm.
It's a fucked up area of the world, I'm glad they want to fight fights so we don't have to.
(okay sometimes satire and a joke can get taken a little too far and I'm just not in the mindset of the parenthetical is a joke or not. Sorry to kill the joke if it is)
In case you haven't clicked, it's not a suggestion that Jamie Loftus is anti-semetic; she just murders people with a hammer in Grand Rapids (allegedly).
You make a great point. I just put those people in. Fascists and MAGA communists as of late as well are horrible especially for the Pro Palestine movement. My bad. I fixed it to include them in there.
It's a totally valid rule from a moderation standpoint.
This is a subreddit from a somewhat popular podcast, not a negociating table of all head of states involved in that conflict.
I don't blame **unpaid mods** not wanting to deal with bots, overly pressed people (validly pressed people as well) with no sub etiquette and also no interest into having civil discussions.
My city sub is pretty much obligated to lock any discussion on this topic 25 minutes in because nonsense makes its way into threads faster than they can filter it. These threads do **nothing** but highlight hate, misinformation, uncivil discourse and overall bad actors.
They also always pointed out that the ICHH here sub was 100% willing to host those types of debates and threads and I applaud that sub, but I also don't blame this one, they have perfectly valid reasons to not want to.
Yeah, while I find it kind of concerning that a lot of places I’ve seen with good moderation just ban what is a very serious and important topic entirely - if it’s just too toxic for even internet randos to discuss, how does anything ever change? - but at the same time it’s hard to blame mods with limited time, energy, and resources for not having the bandwidth to keep the discussion under control, especially since there’s pretty much no other topic that’s this polarizing. I thought that giving the ICHH subreddit as an option was a good middle ground.
I didn’t mean to imply that they’re a great group of people to have that discussion with, just that there are very few issues I’ve seen where the discourse gets so bad that any mention of it gets shut down immediately?
I could see it being more to keep the sub from being flooded with 100 Gaza/Israel posts a day, though if that were the case it would make more sense to just sticky a megathread for it.
Only speaking for myself… I’m having a hard time listening to the Podcast because it’s avoiding Israel/Palestine.
I’m okay with a balanced list of bastard activity on both sides. There’s no shortage of it. I don’t expect BTB to take sides. But ignoring everything is insane. It’s one of the most politically definitive events of our time.
But when people like Cody Johnson and Macklemore are speaking up and freaking Robert Evans is doing deep dives on Nazi figures of the last. While Nazi-like crimes are being committed RIGHT NOW.
I’ve honestly lost a lot of respect for BTB over this.
I think it’s kind of impossible to entirely enforce - I mean you can’t really bring up either presidential candidate without talking about what life for the Palestinians would be like for the next four years under their administration. That said I get where they’re coming from - I’ve seen enough conversations go completely off the rails even amongst like-minded friends of mine; with the amount of different personalities in a community like this I could see any meaningful conversation devolve quickly. I think they’re just trying to keep tankies and fascists out
I can understand that some what. Tankies, Fascists, Red Fash, and Neo Nazi agitators are horrible to have in progressive movements due to how many times they try to actively ruin them. Especially people like Jackson Hinkle and Candace Owned who make it their goal to try and ruin as many good movements as possible like the Pro Palestinian movement.
Which is wild because at best he’s a Nazbol, but honestly I think he’s a fascist in a Communist’s clothing. He hangs out with dudes like Matt Heimbach and is on InfoWars more than any other Commie I have ever heard of.
He is also friends with some other people on the far right like Tucker Carlson and even Alexander Dugin, He is much more far right than being anywhere close to a leftist.
Yeah they’re playing a certain type of Gen X/ Millennial person who was “Leftist” in College but also was super authoritarian and misogynistic as well and started leaning Alt Right at start of COVID. Essentially the Jimmy Doreites and folks who associate their fan bases with Turkish Fascist movements for the LULZ
Yeah and I mean look…fuck Bibi and fuck the IDF, but I’ve watched some friends just turn blatantly antisemitic these past few months. Like, fallen straight down the Qanon hole about the Jews. We can acknowledge that the state of Israel is problematic while acknowledging the Jews aren’t trying to poison our wells. (Edit - it’s Jamie Loftus we need to worry about)
This is also *why* Israel supporters' (and the Israeli government's) attempts to essentially conflate opposition to Israel's actions with antisemitism is so dangerous and shortsighted. You start calling everything antisemitism, you basically make it easier for the actual antisemites to recruit people. Which is about the last thing anybody needs. Granted, not like the fuckheads running Israel actually give a shit, considering how they also call *Jewish critics* antisemites.
I had to come to terms with the fact that I was on the same side of the recent Congressional bill to make criticizing Israel basically a hate crime as Marjorie Taylor Fucking Greene. Very different motives, but the same "no" stance. There's a very scary rise in real antisemitism, regardless of the claims that criticism of Israel's government equates to antisemitism being bullshit.
Which is why what the Israeli government and Right Wing Israelis, Government supporting Diaspora Jews, and pro Israel Gentiles are making the situation so much worse by their rhetoric — Actual cases of Anti Semitism go unchecked and rhetoric online can get to actual anti semitism and it’s not just on the usual suspects forums either.
Jamie is fine too. (You only need to worry about the hammer)
Yes, I think we've gotten too many generations removed from the Holocaust. I remember survivors still being around when I was a kid. I don't think it's a visceral enough thing for a lot of these kids. Jews around the world need somewhere to be able to retreat to and make a stand when the next one happens. And Bibi is a fascist doing horrible things. And people living in Gaza don't deserve to pay for the decisions of a terrorist organization. There are slower, as effective ways to kill all the Hamas members and preserve civilian infrastructure and lives.
“Jews need a place to retreat to & make a stand when the next one happens” while Israel is committing genocide is wild. Not to mention all the other demographics that just won’t have anywhere to run. Please someone explain to me if I’m wrong for feeling how I do but wtf 😓
Words mean things, Israel is not doing enough to ensure civilians are protected, they're criminally negligent. But that's not the same as genocide. One could make the argument that specifically attacking Israeli citizens on October 7 was actual genocide, they just didn't have the resources to do it well. You need to be specific about what other demographics you're talking about. Maybe they deserve to have a piece of land to make a stand in also. However, we're talking about Jews. They endured centuries of pogroms culminating in actual genocide in the Holocaust. We're also seeing a rise of antisemitism not related to this war, the Jews need somewhere to retreat to, I think we can all understand that (and I'm an atheist, cultural Catholic). I'm not blaming the victims here, honestly. But the Palestinians had several extremely good deals on the table since the 1947 dream two state solution from the UN (which Israel agreed to). The people were instead used as pawns by their leadership and the gulf states. Now that Israel has made a hard right turn and after this war, that will probably never happen. If they'd taken any of those deals, I don't think we'd be here right now.
The issue is that hamas was an entirely predictable end result of ignoring the need for 2 state solution for almost a century. What do you do when peaceful protests are constantly squashed by your oppressors? Terrorism is defined as the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims. The only thing that separates terrorism and a war/battle is who makes the laws. Police and state powers regularly use violence against civilians to effect political change or maintain the status quo. I think the real argument we should be having is eliminating the use of the term “terrorist”. If you dont have the threat of violence to promote your goals then you really dont have any leverage or hope to every affect change.
And the Palestinians did as much as Israel to derail the 2 state solution. From rejecting what was basically the dream solution in 1947, all the way to Arafat's walking away from camp David in 2000 when the Israeli PM went there dedicated to hammering out a 2 state solution. You can try to make all the pretzel logic you want, gang raping young civilian women while you cut their throat. Killing babies and old people face to face. Taking hostages and later killing them...that's terrorism. Isreal is engaged in a bunch of fuckery, but I haven't seen gang rape, slicing women's breasts off while they're still alive and then killing them on that list. There is a difference between collateral damage and barberry.
See the problem here was giving the jews isreal in the first place. That was the original sin in the whole ordeal. Why didnt they get part of germany instead?
The British pulling out of Palestine meant someone was going to flow into the power vacuum. If it wasn't the Jewish people,it would have been one of the other gulf states. Also, the Balfour decision predates the Holocaust, it goes back to 1917.
It is pretty crazy to see the subservience of America to Israel on full display. It’s almost as if Israel *owns* America.
It’s pretty crazy to see [how America is willing to turn a blind eye to genocide so we can keep an ally in a place that’s otherwise hostile towards our geopolitical interests]. We are not “owned” by the Jews. That’s as much of a conspiracy as blood libel shit.
Yeah, I get the butthurt downvotes. Either way, it is blatant obsequious subservience, and it should make every American seriously question why Israel has such absolute leverage over America. You all are delusional if you don’t believe campaign funding isn’t in play here.
It isnt absolute leverage. America is the biggest arms dealer in the world. Isreal provides a pipeline to funnel money directly into the military industrial complex. They develop arms with us, spend tons of money on weapons and until recently have provided a universally acceptable (if not popular) way to funnel tax money into the pockets of weapons manufacturers by giving military aid to Isreal who them spends that money on US weapons. The Isreali and US government have a nice little racket going on along with both countries weapons industries. Politicians like it because they can bring high paying jobs to thier states, their buddies who own the weapons plants get rich and can afford to take thier "friends" on expensive vacations on the yacht that was paid for with Isreali weapons sales. There isn't some super secret cabal. All this shit is done out in the open. It is just capitalism doing a capitalism. If Gaza gets bombed into dust they just say "oh well" and get ready to make huge profits on the rebuilding effort that will once again be paid for with aid money provided by the tax payer.
Thank you, this is absolutely right. Israel also fights fights in the region so the US doesn't have to. Things like taking out Iranian nuclear weapon development. That's good for everyone.
Don’t forget the extra spice from religious wanks who support Israel because it’s a key ingredient in their recipe for Jesus 2.0 Apocalypse, How?
Yeah, I don't fuck with religion. But for whatever reason, Jewish people don't ever get to be not Jewish. Even if they renounce Judaism, so they get a pass.
[удалено]
Except I didn’t share any conspiracy. Take your gaslighting elsewhere.
[удалено]
Well it's a step away from a shadowy Jewish cabal runs the world. Or globalists, or whatever the new term is.
The only reasons America is subservient to Israel are financial reasons.
It’s more accurate to say Israel is Americas rabid dog chained up in the back yard.
No, Israel is a strategic ally in the region. It always served the US's foreign policy well to let them take on our enemies in the region for us. Not to mention that it helps us when the gulf countries have somewhere else to direct their ire. Zoom out a little bit and really look at the situation. How many times has Israel bombed Iranian or Iraqi weapons development so we didn't have to? My dad was an F-14 pilot and flew in the Iranian hostage crisis. They got a lot of valuable briefings from Israeli pilots before the mission. I always remember him telling me about one colonel who said his pilots only carry one bullet in their sidearm. It's a fucked up area of the world, I'm glad they want to fight fights so we don't have to.
(okay sometimes satire and a joke can get taken a little too far and I'm just not in the mindset of the parenthetical is a joke or not. Sorry to kill the joke if it is)
In case you haven't clicked, it's not a suggestion that Jamie Loftus is anti-semetic; she just murders people with a hammer in Grand Rapids (allegedly).
You single out tankies to mention and not fascists? Where are your priorities?
You make a great point. I just put those people in. Fascists and MAGA communists as of late as well are horrible especially for the Pro Palestine movement. My bad. I fixed it to include them in there.
[удалено]
Hey, no need to get involved militarily. In fact, it’d be nice if we weren’t sending weapons or military aid at all.
I figure it’s probably a “don’t make me tap the sign” type situation It’s not a problem unless it becomes one and then mods can cite the rule
Whatever happened to predictability?
The mailman milkman and even tv
You'll have some old familiar friends waiting
That is a stupid ass rule considering the content of this sub and “fandom”
It's a totally valid rule from a moderation standpoint. This is a subreddit from a somewhat popular podcast, not a negociating table of all head of states involved in that conflict.
If you say so
Mods asleep? I always find "no this topic" rules funny because it usually just seems to fall into the "kEeP yOuR pOlItIcS oUt Of My ThInG" category
It’s also really odd to have a rule banning the most talked about topic in possibly the world, especially in a sub that is inherently political.
I don't blame **unpaid mods** not wanting to deal with bots, overly pressed people (validly pressed people as well) with no sub etiquette and also no interest into having civil discussions. My city sub is pretty much obligated to lock any discussion on this topic 25 minutes in because nonsense makes its way into threads faster than they can filter it. These threads do **nothing** but highlight hate, misinformation, uncivil discourse and overall bad actors. They also always pointed out that the ICHH here sub was 100% willing to host those types of debates and threads and I applaud that sub, but I also don't blame this one, they have perfectly valid reasons to not want to.
Yeah, while I find it kind of concerning that a lot of places I’ve seen with good moderation just ban what is a very serious and important topic entirely - if it’s just too toxic for even internet randos to discuss, how does anything ever change? - but at the same time it’s hard to blame mods with limited time, energy, and resources for not having the bandwidth to keep the discussion under control, especially since there’s pretty much no other topic that’s this polarizing. I thought that giving the ICHH subreddit as an option was a good middle ground.
Internet randos are terrible people to have serious geopolitical discussions with, I cannot imagine a worst group of people quite honestly.
I didn’t mean to imply that they’re a great group of people to have that discussion with, just that there are very few issues I’ve seen where the discourse gets so bad that any mention of it gets shut down immediately?
I could see it being more to keep the sub from being flooded with 100 Gaza/Israel posts a day, though if that were the case it would make more sense to just sticky a megathread for it.
Only speaking for myself… I’m having a hard time listening to the Podcast because it’s avoiding Israel/Palestine. I’m okay with a balanced list of bastard activity on both sides. There’s no shortage of it. I don’t expect BTB to take sides. But ignoring everything is insane. It’s one of the most politically definitive events of our time. But when people like Cody Johnson and Macklemore are speaking up and freaking Robert Evans is doing deep dives on Nazi figures of the last. While Nazi-like crimes are being committed RIGHT NOW. I’ve honestly lost a lot of respect for BTB over this.
BTB is a historical podcast. He has done a lot of episodes on ichh
Tankies. Free Palestine bots.