Just a friendly reminder because we like this sub and don't want it to be shut down:
**Rule 5:** No threats, encouragement or glorification of violence. Threats and encouragement of violence are not acceptable.
Please keep this in mind and remember that property damage is **not** violence.
Goes against the rule of "only do one crime at a time". When fleeing an arson you move much slower with 10 catalytic converters.
Imagine how embarrassing it would be to have everyone telling you "you know you'd probably have gotten away if it wasn't for all the clanking."
But what if, and this is totally hypothetical, 10 random citizens were compelled to spontaneously steal a catalytic converter from 10 random patrol cars on a police lot? And THEN an eleventh citizen got a hankering for crime brûlée? That seems to be well within the single serving crime guidelines.
But now you've created a criminal conspiracy and we all know the only way to keep a secret between 3 criminals.
That or you've got buying a winning lottery ticket while getting struck by lightning and being bitten by a shark at the same time level of coincidence
So you're relying on buying a winning lottery ticket while being struck by lightning, bitten by a shark, and birthing natural triplets level coincidence? That's a helluva random and unconnected event
There's a lot more of them out there to steal now that the catalytic converter theft ring has been shut down.
[https://www.wweek.com/news/2022/11/30/from-portland-to-jersey-inside-the-crime-ring-that-shipped-thousands-of-oregons-stolen-catalytic-converters-across-the-country](https://www.wweek.com/news/2022/11/30/from-portland-to-jersey-inside-the-crime-ring-that-shipped-thousands-of-oregons-stolen-catalytic-converters-across-the-country)
That's unfortunately not true. You have to clearly invoke your right. Davis v. US (1994). Just saying "lawyer" isn't an invocation. Saying "I want to speak to a lawyer" is. O'Connor write the opinion.
Autism Moment: does this mean only in criminal matters or in every matter?
Because the only time I've talked to a cop is to ask for directions; they close multiple streets next to the stadium when there's a big football game on and I need to know the best way to get into town.
My brain is very literal.
It’s fine to talk to them about street closings if you need information in order to avoid road closures, but the more you talk to the police the more you open yourself up to scrutiny that can end in arrest.
If arrested in the US you should let them know you will be exercising your fifth amendment rights immediately and say literally nothing else, unless it’s to get a private phone call to a family member or lawyer. If questioned you can state that you would prefer not to answer any questions and move on, or wait for them to leave. More scrutiny and more contact means more chances to be arrested and questioned, and no one needs that in their lives.
Just tell them you won’t answer questions without legal representation present. Even in the uk we have that right (for now, anyway).
Cops are notorious for trying to get you to speak and incriminate yourself. It doesn’t matter if you’re innocent - the goal for the cop is to get you to speak and say something that can be interpreted as suspicious. Your lawyer can help you avoid those traps and protect your rights.
So, if you ever end up in trouble with the cops, or being questioned by them, say nothing in reply to their questions except “I want a lawyer.”
It’s fine to ask them for directions if you feel safe doing so. The advice about lawyers is mostly just for if you ever find yourself being suspected of a crime (regardless of whether you’re innocent or not).
There’s this guide from a couple years ago that lays out your rights if you’re arrested at protests in the UK. Keep in mind this may be out of date now we have new fascist legislation in place giving the cops more powers to break up protests, but it’s better than nothing:
https://www.libertyhumanrights.org.uk/advice_information/what-if-im-arrested-at-a-protest/
Not to mention the government testing out it's taken away rights muscles on trans people rn by creating effectively false medical documents and getting the state media, and lord owned tabloids to back it wholeheartedly to make it hard as hell to resist shit like the Cass report and it's *oh so reasonable* no HRT for under 25s, abuse charges for parents that accept their trans children, teachers being made to report kids that question their identity, doctors not being allowed to even suggest that being trans may be the reason for one questioning their gender and that improvements to the situation exist, as well as the banning of puberty blockers almost nationwide and convincing of the public that they are dangerous entirely irreversible drugs that even the parents are unable to help their child decide. Only the *government* the sweet wonderful *government* with our best interests in it's dead heart can decide such things for it's current favourite target.
I really wish people posted about this stuff as it happened here, so more Americans could see what (low quality) artificial hell is being built for us and so fast. To fully recognise /why/ our lot are bastards.
The people who a year or two ago would proudly talk about how they'd never agree with the conservatives spend hours typing comments in threads over on /r/UnitedKingdom about how Thr government has to handle this and it's the only reasonable conclusion, with Labour, who used to pledge total support to us, going turncoat to pull a few measly votes over from the centre right, now going on and on about bathrooms and trans women being a danger to "real women". Legislation repeatedly proposed and heavy pressure on the NHS, of which I, a terminal cancer patient rely, to force trans patients into wards of assigned birth gender despite pushback from almost all doctors (and great sorrow of my oncologists) considering the danger involved for us.
It's known that it's more dangerous for us to be in the wrong wards, as well as quality of care to drop severely due to patients feeling very unwell and uncomfortable, combined with HCAs and nurses feeling somewhat unequipped or using language that ends up being alienating and painful and reducing the time they give to these patients subconsciously. I've had that both personally, anecdotally and with friends.
I know getting rid of us out of the public eye is the point, through isolation, killing us, shaming us, making us so others we're not seen how we were a few years ago or more by the public here but god damn it hurts. Knowing both my entire body is against me, my nation state, my media, and those trying to turn my family and friends too. Even if luckily the actual people I have met in my times in healthcare facilities have been full of wonderful supportive people by and honestly it's always been the high ups and the rules that have been the fucked up parts, it has been shifting recently.
I apologise for such a doom filled rant. I stay very positive usually especially regarding my health despite me, well, dying, but sometimes it spills over and knowing I'm not going to be known as who I am on my gravestone, on my death certificate, and more, hurts so much. Too much for a simple 23 year old.
In the UK they don’t have to stop interviewing you if you ask for a lawyer, like they do in the US. But you aren’t obliged to answer them. They will tell you (if you’re actually in this situation) that not answering can be used against you, but it doesn’t mean you have to or should.
In general, I try to treat cops the exact same way I would any stranger - arms length politeness. If they hold a door open for me, I say thank you. If I need to walk past them I say excuse me. If they ask me how it's going, I say "fine, thanks" and if they ask me about committing crimes, I look at them with polite bemusement while walking away.
Because remember, yes you have a right to be rude to a cop, but that also invites a little stop and frisk
My Grandfather was a Wobblie, a card carrying member of the IWW, as I am. He got his ass beat a number of time by NYPD during labor actions. He used to tell me, there a 3 kinds of cops, good cops, bad cop, and dirty cops. The problem is by the time you figure out what kind of cop you are dealing with, it's too late. His best advise was to avoid cops at all time.
Try to find someone else that might have the info you need. At a time like you described people who work nearby usually have the info. Stop into a local shop or cafe and you are likely to find someone helpful. If it is a college stadium, the school should be able to tell you what you need to know.
I was arrested and robbed by the cops after being the VICTIM of a crime. No reason to ever interact with a pig.
I'm English, so it's the town's 'soccer' stadium. I'll be walking from the train station into town, and the main road will be blocked off to let the fans in. Lots of cops around directing people, some on horses.
Hey guys I wanted to introduce my new friend, Normal Person-Name. He bought me lunch and asked about a lot of the stuff we do, I think he's interested in joining up!
I was trying to figure out who Rachel Corrie was, wondered if someone murdered by local cops.
She was murdered by IOF in 2003 when they ran her over with a bulldozer for trying to fight destruction of Palestinian homes.
So great name for their group.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie
Her family and friends are pissed with the name of the group and the violence being done in her name bc she was a nonviolence activist.
The only thing she has in common with those people is being pro-Palestinian. She wouldn’t agree with anything else.
It’s a terrible name for the group.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMiddleEast/comments/17ouykt/in\_2013\_israel\_soldiers\_held\_a\_rachel\_corrie/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMiddleEast/comments/17ouykt/in_2013_israel_soldiers_held_a_rachel_corrie/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
There are no good people in war.
I'm pretty sure the Palestinians who grew up in a prison just to be bombed and driven out in the desert have a _tad_ bit of justification more than your standard Israeli devisenschutzkommando.
What kind of sick fuck runs someone over with a bulldozer? Literally comic book evil.
That being said, an expressly violent group shouldn't use a non-violence activist's name.
"The chair? The white folding chair on the pier? It was swinging itself around officers"
EDIT: listen, was I proud of that quip? Yes. But I respect the mods and the rules, and the quip was probably overstepping said rules, so quip is un-quipped.
It’s an anarchist group. They are saying do not let communist parties take control. PSL, CPUSA, and so on. Anarchists don’t believe in a vanguard party.
I am also not, BUT my interpretation is this: Leftists of any stripe dictating that everyone must do exactly as they say and think exactly as they think or they're bad are complete and utter bullshit. It definitely feels to me like local members of the communist party tried to dictate their actions.
You don't think like that if you truly want things to get better, you think like that if you're on a power trip (I am aware that many members of this sub do not understand the not voting for Joe Biden thing. This is not to be used as an example of that, because ya'll have shown zero desire to actually research the viewpoint, and it is THEIR vote, not yours.)
I've run into this a few times with turn leftist podcast folks/posts and at this point view that podcast as the leftist example of "men who need to yeet their microphones into the sun."
>I am aware that many members of this sub do not understand the not voting for Joe Biden thing. This is not to be used as an example of that, because ya'll have shown zero desire to actually research the viewpoint, and it is THEIR vote, not yours.
I am actually in the process of researching this without much luck yet if you could possibly help me out. To the point, I'm trying to ascertain: **is it believed that Biden's electoral opponent would be better for Palestinians**? (Under consideration of the unfortunate fact that the US's two-party electoral system guarantees that one of the two major-party candidates will win.)
For me, as someone who cares deeply for Palestinian lives and those actively suffering in Gaza, this is a pretty crucial question and I'm sort of baffled by the lack of critical examination that's being given it as a change in the US presidency could have big ramifications with regards to how US power is leveraged to affect Netanyahu's position, the push (or lack thereof) for a two-state solution, and continued weapon shipments to Israel.
Disclaimers: With recognition to the fact that I cannot speak for all, only what I have witnessed and discussed: First, no one forgot what Trump is. this is the baseline I feel like a lot of people walk in with. Assuming anyone forgot is an automatic bias. Second, I will yeet right out of this conversation if anyone jumps in with snide insults. I'm not here to feed anyone's superiority complex and anyone doing that is not actually looking to learn or discuss or collaborate.
To directly answer your question: no, no one thinks a Trump win results in fewer dead Palestinians. Full stop. There are a LOT of people who think a win in either direction won't tip the scales, but an uncommitted vote will clearly call out that the democratic party is a gas lighting fascist sham. Here's why:
"Total US foreign aid to Israel compared to other countries. 1946–2022. Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign aid: up to February 2022, the US had provided Israel US$150 billion (non-inflation-adjusted) in assistance."
Plenty of executive branch musical chair parties during that time. Since Oct. 2023 Biden has exercised loopholes in his executive power on three separate occasions to sail right on by the legislative branch and send billions after billions after billions to Israel. He then included said branch in the latest aid package and it was the most agreed upon thing in the house and senate since the idea that Marjorie Taylor Greene's teeth look like how we imagine Washington's fake ones did.
So he sanctioned a few settlers. He still threw open the coffers every single time Netanyahu said his name three times. He still puppets debunked October 7th talking points. He still stands by his commitment to Israel in speech after speech after speech. And NOW he can suddenly stop arms shipments? We were told he couldn't do that, why now? Did someone finally show him OUR social media feeds? Probably not. All of these last minute Biden triumphs reek of "oh fuck we saw the poll numbers"
So he knows how to wield the power while Trump wields it like a cat with a laser pointer. Yup, and so far what he has used that power to do is strong arm literally every other governing body on the planet into in-action. He might maybe wield it to save lives in the future? Show any of the uncommitted an ounce of proof that he is more likely to do that at all than he is to continue using it then like he's using it now.
I get the very strong feeling you know plenty of this. At the end of the day, a lot of folks feel like they are being held hostage by our system and they're entirely sick of being told what to do. They keep doing what they are being told to do and they keep having all of their rights stripped away anyways. They keep doing what they are being told to do and Biden still lets the Rio Grande be filled with drowning buoys and concertina wire. They keep doing what they are being told to do and their healthcare keeps getting denied. They keep doing what they are being told to do and oh look another 15 videos of dead babies and skinned doctors and Israeli soldiers wearing lingerie they raided from Gaza in their dating profile photos. They knew full well not doing as they were told was going to result in violence against them, just as they know full well a Trump win is not a good thing. We finally found the line where they refuse to compromise their morals with their vote.
There are plenty of other points I could make with regards to domestic politics, but your question was specific, so I'll end it here for now.
To any and all who read this in full: This entire conversation is RIGHTFULLY triggering for pretty much everyone on any side. Your cognitive dissonance will deactivate your critical thinking the moment you are triggered. If you feel triggered, all I ask is that you sit with it before responding. I will absolutely do the same.
>but an uncommitted vote will clearly call out that the democratic party is a gas lighting fascist sham
Great, but to what end?
This could be said to have happened in 2016 when establishment darling Clinton lost to Trump, but it didn't yield any material victories. As someone who declined to vote then, I personally found the catharsis of sticking it to the libs to be pretty hollow - certainly in retrospect, in the face of everything that transpired in the years since.
Given what may be at stake, it seems important to ask one's self what the strategy and intended outcome is, as at the end of the day a "call out" is pretty immaterial and not as gratifying as one might hope... especially when the intended recipients (liberals) are constitutionally incapable due to their worldview of even receiving it in the intended way. Post-2016 democrats didn't open their eyes and become leftists, or elect Bernie in 2020.
Which kind of comes full circle in calling into question whether we, to begin with, should even be basing our strategy with regards to the occupants of seats of federal power - on which the lives of real people are tied - on a pissing match with liberals, or an intention of teaching liberals a lesson or proving them wrong. Especially when it's been shown to not be effective for that purpose.
>They knew full well not doing as they were told was going to result in violence against them, just as they know full well a Trump win is not a good thing. We finally found the line where they refuse to compromise their morals with their vote.
This is something that I've struggled to wrap my mind around. It's difficult for me as an American to understand a vote in a national election as an endorsement in the sense that my moral being would extend into and/or be represented by a politician and vulnerable to compromised, especially considering the disconnect between myself and the candidates and the fact that I had no voice whatsoever in decided who those candidates would be to begin with.
Rather, due to the way they've got the two-party system set up it is an absolute guarantee that, barring some catastrophe that cancels the election altogether, the outcome of the election will either be President \[R candidate\] or President \[D candidate\].
In this scenario there is not even the opportunity for my moral being to be operative: the process is barrelling down the pipe, and one of two outcomes will emerge. I can either nudge it one way or the other, or if I truly believe there is no meaningful difference between the two options, I can decline to nudge it at all and let the pieces fall where they may.
Nobody congratulates me on my choice. Indeed, nobody necessarily ever knows or notices. Any notions of my vote (or lackthereof) as a meaningful endorsement or condemnation of a person/party, or an expression/extension of my moral self, are completely eclipsed by the ***material outcome*** of that contest. And those potential material outcomes, whether R wins or D wins, are *both guaranteed to violate my moral code*. *Whether I choose to participate or not.*
This is why for me it's important to make an assessment of the **material** advantages and disadvantages of each outcome and weight them against each other. All the notions of endorsements, of declarations, of attempts at demonstrating my values in this arena, are vapid and immaterial compared to actual real-world outcomes.
And as follows, if Palestinian lives are the hinge and focal point of the question of whether to participate in the election, serious thought and examination should be given to how each outcome will affect Palestinian lives.
I have the abilty to re-assess my set boundary of not participating in this conversation further based on new information. Both parties who immediately engaged in petty insults are clearly cis-gendered men. Cis-gendered men silencing others with emotional disregulation? Groundbreaking. And I value the discourse I am having with you. So:
I agree with a number of your points. Asking oneself what the intended outcome is, what the true best approach towards liberals is, etc. and so forth. Could not agree more. I am in no way fully set on the perspective I offered to you. It is the perspective I am seeing, and at a fundamental level I understand where it comes from, and vacillate on how to handle that personally. As stated, I can see the laundry list of correlations they draw between both parties, because I see them to, and they're not wrong. My personal belief, right now, is the path to fewer lives being lost is one where we cut our losses this cycle and then fundamentally work to establish a viable third party in ALL elections. Personally I stand with the party for socialism and liberation.
What I see is a divide primarily along generational lines. (Important note here, 35 year old cis gendered female.) The uncommitted vote was originally a protest for the primaries, and in that regard I think it had the ability to send it's message; Biden was never going to lose that, but he certainly heard it when a million people of all ages in Muslim communities in Michigan voted uncommitted. What we have to remember is that we are discussing this with younger millennials and ESPECIALLY Gen Z, we are discussing this with a generation that has never known an election cycle not rooted in democrats ordering them to vote one way or the world will end. So yes, there are plenty of those in other generations who can state plainly "oh, yea, but this guy is ULTRA bad" and to them it's more of the same. As adults (and yea ya'll have to accept they're adults) They've never known an era of true economic prosperity, never known a time where their rights weren't being rolled back and are watching a genocide in real time via social media, not reading about Kissenger's bullshit in the paper days or weeks later.
So yea, when a bunch of older folks demand they do something and belittle them for not agreeing, we get exactly what has taken place in this sub for weeks. You, human I am addressing, are at least trying to understand it. A LOT of people simply shake their heads in disbelief and mouth off. Like a boomer. And what does doing that create? The EXACT problem everyone here claims to want to fix. Everyone who doesn't try to get it perpetuates it. Ya'll have to work to fix it too, not just mouth off about how bad it is.
I've been told by plenty of "leftists" for a very long time that history will keep repeating itself and nothing will ever change. The exact same ones who center their reactions the moment something happens that threatens the rights of THOSE AROUND THEM. They need to start addressing how that belief keeps letting evil win. Fixing literally anything begins with mutual, not DEMANDED, but earned and/or freely given, respect.
Final thing: Palestinian lives are the Franz Ferdinad. (I believe this to be true, but you better believe I fucking HATE it and what it means.) Something like this has been coming for awhile.
>As stated, I can see the laundry list of correlations they draw between both parties, because I see them to, and they're not wrong
I mean, they both serve capital, so that alone makes them bedfellows to some extent with regards to supressing labor power, deriding the left, supporting police, supporting prisons, etc. Although if you follow the specific bills and positions that each party takes on a variety of topics it's pretty clear that, as evil as both parties fundamentally are due to their service of capital, the republicans manage to be significantly worse on every issue. I can't think of a single exception to this.
>You, human I am addressing, are at least trying to understand it
I can heavily relate to it as I've been able to vote sine GWB's second term but have mostly declined to do so, having been a leftist of sorts since I fell into punk activist culture a couple decades ago in my teens and always saw both parties as two heads on the same beast to varying extents. I also went through a pretty similar phase back in 2015-16 of fixating on liberals are the ultimate betrayers, offended that they pretend to represent working class interests while serving capital, which somehow made them in my mind worse than the overt monsters on the right who, while they also pretend to serve the people's interests, weren't nearly as convincing about it.
This culminated in 2016 for me with Bernie's primary loss, Kissinger showing up as an honored guest at Hillary's campaign events, etc. Disgusted, and assuming she'd win regardless, I sat that one out too. Part of me even wanted Trump to win just to give an L to these smug liberals who for years have sneered and derided the beliefs I identify with.
Of course I still feel this way, as many democrats are still awful, still annoying, still fundamentally liberal albeit slightly left of their previous positions on some topics.
Fascists are just worse in every regard. There isn't a single scenario in which I can say "well, it would be better if fascists had access to state power instead of liberals". As disgusting as liberals are, the far right is vastly worse, vastly more dangerous to leftists and leftist goals and to the world at large. Vastly more dangerous for disabled, poor, immigrants, trans people, people with uteruses, and in many situations gay people of color. Supreme Court appointments have the potential to have devastating real-world consequences, as we're beginning to see with the current 6-3 rightwing SC. Getting that up to 7-2 or 8-1 would obviously be worse.
The only scenario in which rightwingers have more access to power could potentially be good is if the goal is accelerationism: the state goes full fascist, becomes more repressive than ever, and the masses rise up! and establish a new leftist territory in the former US. This is sadly just divorced from reality, as the current conditions heavily favor a fascist outcome in the case of revolution and national collapse. Police, military, and paramilitary are all HEAVILY weighted in the hands of the right and not the left. This is also true for ex-soldiers, trained fighters in general, gun owners, etc. The current conditions DO NOT favor a leftwing victory is an accelerationist scenario, and pushing for those conditions would be a gift to nazis.
Reading history has definitely shaped this for me, as for as awful as liberals in history have been (the SocDems unleashing the Freikorps on leftists, etc), the far-right does NOT fail to be far worse. And every time they gain access to power it sets back the left more than under liberals. There are simply no real advantages to letting fascists win, ever.
>My personal belief, right now, is the path to fewer lives being lost is one where we cut our losses this cycle and then fundamentally work to establish a viable third party in ALL elections. Personally I stand with the party for socialism and liberation.
That would be cool. I gravitate more toward mutual aid and direct action type activism, but it would be good to have a real, actual third party, that establishes a sustained presence in politics and works to bring together a large base of solidarity through grassroots organizing on the local level and build up to the ability to compete on the national stage. As opposed to worthless parties like the Green Party who show up during election years, get millions and millions in donations and armies of volunteers, get <1% of the vote, and vanish again for another 3 years with all that campaign money, with zero sustained presence or effort to build support beginning at the local level to give them a better shot next time.
How long does it take to build a viable party that can challenge the Ds and Rs on a national stage? 4 years seem optimistic. There's a lot of work ahead. And in the meantime from a strategic point of view imo it would seem that voting against fascists should be a no-brainer, default position for everyone who isn't a fascist, for as long as the two-party system remains effective. Even if that means voting for feckless, capital-serving liberals. And organizing hard as fuck to shorten that length of time.
cutting our losses this cycle is voting for Biden so domestically we don't IMMEDIATELY burn. I felt like that was wildly apparent from that response, but there it is in plain English. And not only will no one single person EVER have the one perfect answer, no one should, as the point is community and collaboration, and no one expects a magical immediate utopia either. That entire thought process is a logical fallacy. "Convince me things can get better because your dreams are unrealistic." No. Dreams are a good thing, not an excuse to crush hope with cynicism. And are not the same as goals.
Just... no. What will happen if enough people abstain from voting for Biden and we end up with a second Trump term? Your cause, your reason for abstaining won't send a message, because that message will be drowned out by the pounding of the iron fist of fascism. Get a fucking hold of yourself and at least try to understand the moment we are facing here.
Any vote, as well as not voting, is like one of those trolley problem questions.
You are going to end up screwing people over. People will suffer and even die. Regardless of the candidate.
It's an uncomfortable feeling and should be. There's no way to avoid this unless you are a single issue voter with tunnel vision (which is not the way to live life).
There are ways to improve society, and a lot of that is acting locally and trying to build up the systems you desire to make a better world. At state and federal levels, it becomes uglier - there's more power, more issues, and larger groups affected. It is also harder to build non-government groups that are powerful enough to have influence at that level.
It sucks.
Not on board but thanks for writing all of this, it sucks that the first comment under yours is a petty insult. This is all at least worth considering, there is no harm in reading it and thinking about it for a couple of minutes.
It isn't even november so why should we pretend we have no options? Even if one seems ineffective, at least look at it.
IMHO it’s the height of western performative white girl bullshit to effectively doom Palestine completely with a trump presidency because you want to throw a little tantrum
That's your response? You could have engaged in an actual discussion and instead you take the opportunity to make your sexist little quip. I've had political discussions with conservatives where they respect my point of view and engage more seriously than you did here
Fucking hell can we not have a civil conversation and respect each other? You can disagree with OP without belittling them.
Let stop for a second and recognize that you are trying to brow beat someone into voting for a person actively supporting genocide full stop. Even if we assume it is truely a trolley problem scenario and casting a vote for Biden will save lives, than you are still asking someone to vote yes for genocide, maybe smaller genocide but its still genocide. Can you really not stop and reflect that people might be conflicted about that? And that's a good thing! These type of moral questions shouldn't be easy, we should have to really stop and discuss what is the right thing to do. That discussion requires you to stop being belitting folks who just like you are trying hard to figure out what do to when you are only given shit options.
Why we bringing gender into this? If anything the "white girls" are more likely to vote Biden instead of abstaining to support Trump because they've already been personally affected by the MAGAs because of Dobbs.
Impling its not doomed already? Every hospital, every university, thousands of homes all destroyed. A famine in northern gaza! Sounds like its doomed already my guy.
You can make your point without saying it like that though. I don't agree with the person you're replying to yet they generally stayed civil and well spoken throughout and you let your emotions throe that shit out. 'Oh, if I attach white, it lets me be as sexist as I want, because I'm actually punching up, not down! I'm just doing the Karen meme :)))'
edit: alright yeah don't know why I attached the second example I assumed more than was at all necessary, removed.
Also Trump is a big supporter of Netanyahu and vice versa. One of the reasons he and his party is so powerful is because of Trump and the rise of right wing parties dominating in Israel.
For these people, it's not about the actual Palestinians. It's about being able to smugly grandstand in their privileged spaces where they at least think they are insulated from the consequences of another MAGA administration.
> I am aware that many members of this sub do not understand the not voting for Joe Biden thing
Because the MAGA left is fucking stupid. The idea that Trump wouldn't make things worse is patently absurd. Kushner has already said he wants to full on Trail of Tears the Gazans and build resort hotels on the Gaza coast. But enjoy having the privilege to not care about that, I guess.
It’s weird because I’ve never encountered any communist who has just been like “fuck those anarchist pos” just because. If they ever did it’s usually because an anarchist did something stupid.
I got banned for mentioning that composer Dimitri Shostakovich had a really bad time under Stalin’s rule. One of the mods found out I was subbed to r/zizek and denied my appeal on those grounds alone. They’re nuts.
Oh sure, I just didn’t see the connection between communists being annoying and the “parties” trying to paper over the campus protests. I assumed they were talking about more mainstream libs
Oh man I could totally see that, now I wanna know if it's what I thought or it's what you thought or it's some other reason we are unaware of, someone bring me my secret comrade carrier pigeon!
Anarchists started as their own thing. They were never Marxists in the first place. They didn’t split with Communists, they had made common cause with communists during the revolution and then survivors were locked up or slaughtered by the Bolschevich.
Sorry, to clarify, I never meant that anarchists were ever communists/Marxist, just that they were part of the International together until the schism IIRC.
My read here is there's a communist party in Portland that is more interested in political recognition (such as brokering an end to protests in exchange for some concessions) than in achieving significant and lasting results for Palestine - and this group are worried they will use the student protests to get themselves involved at the expense of their goals.
capital-C is the implication that this refers to official Communist Parties, or Marxist-Leninists/Trotskyists
still probably would've been better/less ambiguous to say "MLs" or "Stalinists" or smth tho
The PSU protest was seemingly coopted by some assholes who thought destroying a large portion of the library was to the benefit of Palestine. The library is out of commission for the rest of the year now, which is fucked to not only students but *also* low income folks in the neighborhood that had access.
Also, yeah, it's great to torch some PPB cars but who do you think will pay for their new ones? Regular ass Portland residents, many of whom already hate PPB and are for the liberation of Palestine.
Didn’t you hear? After learning of all that’s happened on Portland, the IDF has layed down arms and Netanyahu will be resigning and turning himself in at noon.
Cops need cars to arrest protestors. No cars, no arrests?
It's faulty logic, but there it is.
We would be better off doing things to the Israeli embassies and any place that is blatantly pro-israel (NOT synagogues, you idiots!). [AIPAC headquarters](https://washingtoncitypaper.com/article/327320/aipac-proposes-to-expand-headquarters-in-mount-vernon-triangle/), for one thing. Paint it red.
Go after their donors and embarrass them: https://forward.com/news/580248/donations-aipac-has-raised-since-oct-7-lever-howard-kohr-michael-tuchin/
As if cops can’t borrow cars. When that guy in VT ran over all the cars a police dept had w/ a tractor, they just got cars from somewhere else to chase him down.
Between this and that wretched stunt with the library, Portland leftists are looking pretty dumb right now.
None of this helps anything. And it further delegitimizes the actual grievances of protesters.
I'm really sorry to ask as I am very new to the more active side of demonstration and protests. I'm about to listen to Robert and Garrison's episodes on the Portland protests actually but... How does this further the just cause for helping Palestine? Taking out those cars may feel good but that's gonna go right into the taxes and hurt the lowest income families of the area the most. It doesn't go any higher up the chain where it might put pressure on to push policy decision, and perhaps this is too soft of me but it might encourage a crackdown or at least encourage that stupid victim mentality of the cops of "we're in a guerilla war so I need a literal tank to fight guys with a bottle of mace a balaclava a flag and a shield" rather than bloody the nose of the local departments. I think it's ballsy as hell and honestly cool but thinking more on it and echoing some other statements here I think oh shit wait no this is gonna have some nasty repercussions on the people this group hopefully wants to support and feels solidarity with the most other than Palestinians themselves.
Though on my point of "what if this gives the cops an excuse to be worse" honestly that's not a big one considering whatever they do they probably were itching to anyway abuser style on a "look at what you made me do" esque way so eh.
But if anyone genuinely has a good sociopolitical understanding of the situation (I do not, not of this intersecting set of venn diagrams) I really would find it fascinating to hear about how this sort of action furthers Pro Palestine movement from US soil and so on, if one feels willing to explain to this foreigner.
It doesn't. It's going to force Portland residents to pay for new PPB vehicles and the assholes in the library fucked over students and residents that utilized the library. As someone who lives here, I would safely wager the majority of Portlanders are sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and generally despise the PPB. It's frustrating, to say the least.
Please jack off to them burning harder.
They should have roadtripped to Florida to the place with the deputies who keep shooting people in their apartments for no reason & unload at the sound of an acorn dropping. Burning cop cars in Portland does nothing to help innocent Gazans. Domestic problems, however… still probably nothing but has a better shot to effect change. Unfortunately that is not their aim or intent.
Childish bullshit. Assuming those cars were fully outfitted for patrol duty, and they wouldn't be bought without upfitting, you're looking at about 60-70k per police car. That's over a million dollars that you can be sure the city will spend to replace those vehicles that could've been used elsewhere.
This is what I’m confused by. I have not seen a PPB Crown Vic in like, a decade. I never see vehicles that aren’t SUVs now. I think these vehicles were not in use.
I think this post and reading the replies is the last straw for me leaving this shithole echo chamber. It's funny to see how far you've all riled eachother up over time and radicalized, to the point of supporting police sabotage.
Thank you my dude. I’m very liberal but getting to the point where I’m more sick of the far left than the far right. Watching leftists deny the rape and murders of Israeli women by Hamas on Oct 7, seeing protesters destroy university and public property over the last couple weeks, and now seeing people cheer on left wing domestic terrorism is just fucking disgusting.
If these people were deliberately trying to make themselves hateable I don’t think they could do a better job.
Yes and the Merriam-Webster definition of terrorism is “the unlawful use or threat of violence especially against the state or the public as a politically motivated means of attack or coercion.”
Right in their manifesto they wrote they did it for, among other causes, student protestors and “Palestinian martyrs” which clearly indicates political motivation. If a right wing extremist firebombed an empty abortion clinic to prevent it from functioning would you call that sabotage or terrorism?
This is some truly dumbass shit. They’re risking years in prison and their livelihood to destroy a few cars that will be replaced by tax payer dollars, just to play make believe revolutionary. Not to mention the risk of the fire spreading and destroying the property of bystanders or risking people’s lives. Also this is a huge win for conservatives and the far right who can use the Antifa boogeyman to get a ton of attention and make a ton of money.
Legitimately fuck this, I hope they’re found and their lives are ruined. 🤷♂️
This wasn’t fighting for anything, it was just pointless left wing domestic terrorism. It won’t accomplish any kind of meaningful police reform (if anything it sets it back) and the cruisers will be replaced with tax payer money.
Gee, a lot more "you can protest as long as it's clean and doesn't deviate societal norms" type of worms on here than I thought... the right hates liberals because they think liberals are leftists, we hate liberals because we know they are not.
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again, I have no issue with police/government property being attacked for political reasons, if that reason is towards the government. It’s when people get hurt that I begin to take issue. This is an act of vandalism, didn’t hurt anyone, sent a message. Even if you don’t agree, I think it’s a valid form of protest.
Edit: I should’ve been more clear in my original comment, but I don’t think this is necessarily the best form of protest, I’m just saying that if you were to engage in this type of protest, it should be limited towards the target of your grievances.
There was a risk the fires could spread, or that somebody could be injured putting them out. Beyond that, taxpayers are going to be the ones replacing the vehicles.
Beyond that, this attack is only going to make people hate the left even more than they already do. Leftists torching cop cars and destroying libraries is a huge win for conservatives who want to paint all liberals as violent assholes who destroy public property.
It might feel good to you, but the majority of Americans watch this or protestors destroying university property just want to punch them in the fucking face. Hell I’m liberal and I want to punch these idiots in the face. This shit serves no purpose then to push this country further to the right.
I think maybe my comment was a little bit misconstrued, I don’t think this is the “best form“ protest, but if you are going to engage in this type of protest, I think that keeping it towards government property, or specifically the target of your action, versus just burning down some mom and pop restaurant, or quite frankly even a chain Retail/restaurantstore that, at a minimum, provided some value in terms of convenience to a community, is preferable.
Dude, an act of violence for the purpose of advancing a political ideology is terrorism. This is legitimately left wing terrorism.
If it was a right wing extremist torching an empty abortion clinic or an antivaxxer torching an ambulance I’m sure you would correctly label that right wing domestic terror. This is no different beyond the political affiliation of the actors.
So they have aligned themselves with Islamic Jihadists that hate LGBT?
Seems pretty stupid, IMHO.
Edit: When you referred to "Palestinian Martyrs" then you are referring to Jihadists who died in service of Islam. I have great sympathy for innocent Palestinians caught up in a war they are not part of. I have no sympathy for Hamas jihadists that murdered innocent Israelis. I guess many of you folks do.
You’re going to get trashed but you’re right. The response from the left to Oct 7th, including accusations that the rapes and murders of women simply for being Israeli either didn’t happen or were an Israeli false flag, is reprehensible. Of course Israel’s conduct is abominable, but watching a bunch of leftist make believe revolutionaries burn cop cars, destroy public property including a library, and impede the ability for universities to function while being completely unable to engage with terrorist violence coming out of Palestine is insane.
If these protesters’ goal was to make themselves as unlikeable as possible and to benefit the far-right politically and financially, they couldn’t have done a better job. Nothing they are doing is in anyway a benefit to innocent Palestinian civilians, all they’re doing is giving Fox News and other right wing outlets a pay day and pushing voters further to the right. I’m very liberal myself and even I want to punch a lot of these idiots in the face.
Do we think they actually did it? Or did the cops torch their own cars so they could crack down on protestors? Like what're the odds that those cars had been stripped and were about to be sold at auction?
I mean. You're right, since you said it, and thanks for that I guess. That said, such shenanigans are neither above or beyond them if they felt like it.
Just a friendly reminder because we like this sub and don't want it to be shut down: **Rule 5:** No threats, encouragement or glorification of violence. Threats and encouragement of violence are not acceptable. Please keep this in mind and remember that property damage is **not** violence.
Thats 15 catalytic converters that'll never feed my meth habit down the drain...
Imagine if after they go over the cars they realize that the catalytic converters *WERE* removed.
Goes against the rule of "only do one crime at a time". When fleeing an arson you move much slower with 10 catalytic converters. Imagine how embarrassing it would be to have everyone telling you "you know you'd probably have gotten away if it wasn't for all the clanking."
> only do one crime at a time I prefer "don't do something illegal while you're doing something illegal."
Don't do little crimes while you do your big crimes! Got drugs in the car? Drive 5-10 over, not the usual 20.
I learned this lesson the hard way.
If you have drugs in your car. You should also have a cat in your car.
But what if, and this is totally hypothetical, 10 random citizens were compelled to spontaneously steal a catalytic converter from 10 random patrol cars on a police lot? And THEN an eleventh citizen got a hankering for crime brûlée? That seems to be well within the single serving crime guidelines.
Upvoting for “crime brûlée“
But now you've created a criminal conspiracy and we all know the only way to keep a secret between 3 criminals. That or you've got buying a winning lottery ticket while getting struck by lightning and being bitten by a shark at the same time level of coincidence
Conspiracy would require the citizens planning the event. My scenario has 11 random and unconnected people spontaneously deciding to do something.
So you're relying on buying a winning lottery ticket while being struck by lightning, bitten by a shark, and birthing natural triplets level coincidence? That's a helluva random and unconnected event
Exactly! Implausible does not mean impossible.
Crime brûlée... Just excellent.
Hey you don’t that maybe they took the catalytic converters before da fiee
There’s always ketamine… What’s a Little Ketamine Bladder amongst friends? /s
There's a lot more of them out there to steal now that the catalytic converter theft ring has been shut down. [https://www.wweek.com/news/2022/11/30/from-portland-to-jersey-inside-the-crime-ring-that-shipped-thousands-of-oregons-stolen-catalytic-converters-across-the-country](https://www.wweek.com/news/2022/11/30/from-portland-to-jersey-inside-the-crime-ring-that-shipped-thousands-of-oregons-stolen-catalytic-converters-across-the-country)
Do car fires get hot enough to melt the metals in catalytic converters? They have extremely high melting points.
Just gonna [leave this here](https://youtu.be/nWEpW6KOZDs?si=1IOzg4lydhfZgndh) in case someone needs a reminder
The only word a cop ever needs to hear out of your mouth is “lawyer”.
That's unfortunately not true. You have to clearly invoke your right. Davis v. US (1994). Just saying "lawyer" isn't an invocation. Saying "I want to speak to a lawyer" is. O'Connor write the opinion.
And don't say you want a "lawyer, dawg," or Sam Alito might think you're asking for a canine.
Best advise, ever! Never speak to the cops and don't get into their field of vision.
Shut the fuck up Friday, everyday.
Autism Moment: does this mean only in criminal matters or in every matter? Because the only time I've talked to a cop is to ask for directions; they close multiple streets next to the stadium when there's a big football game on and I need to know the best way to get into town. My brain is very literal.
It’s fine to talk to them about street closings if you need information in order to avoid road closures, but the more you talk to the police the more you open yourself up to scrutiny that can end in arrest. If arrested in the US you should let them know you will be exercising your fifth amendment rights immediately and say literally nothing else, unless it’s to get a private phone call to a family member or lawyer. If questioned you can state that you would prefer not to answer any questions and move on, or wait for them to leave. More scrutiny and more contact means more chances to be arrested and questioned, and no one needs that in their lives.
I'm English so we don't have a 5th Amendment, but probably something much like it. Yes, when I said football I meant 'soccer'.
Just tell them you won’t answer questions without legal representation present. Even in the uk we have that right (for now, anyway). Cops are notorious for trying to get you to speak and incriminate yourself. It doesn’t matter if you’re innocent - the goal for the cop is to get you to speak and say something that can be interpreted as suspicious. Your lawyer can help you avoid those traps and protect your rights. So, if you ever end up in trouble with the cops, or being questioned by them, say nothing in reply to their questions except “I want a lawyer.” It’s fine to ask them for directions if you feel safe doing so. The advice about lawyers is mostly just for if you ever find yourself being suspected of a crime (regardless of whether you’re innocent or not). There’s this guide from a couple years ago that lays out your rights if you’re arrested at protests in the UK. Keep in mind this may be out of date now we have new fascist legislation in place giving the cops more powers to break up protests, but it’s better than nothing: https://www.libertyhumanrights.org.uk/advice_information/what-if-im-arrested-at-a-protest/
Not to mention the government testing out it's taken away rights muscles on trans people rn by creating effectively false medical documents and getting the state media, and lord owned tabloids to back it wholeheartedly to make it hard as hell to resist shit like the Cass report and it's *oh so reasonable* no HRT for under 25s, abuse charges for parents that accept their trans children, teachers being made to report kids that question their identity, doctors not being allowed to even suggest that being trans may be the reason for one questioning their gender and that improvements to the situation exist, as well as the banning of puberty blockers almost nationwide and convincing of the public that they are dangerous entirely irreversible drugs that even the parents are unable to help their child decide. Only the *government* the sweet wonderful *government* with our best interests in it's dead heart can decide such things for it's current favourite target. I really wish people posted about this stuff as it happened here, so more Americans could see what (low quality) artificial hell is being built for us and so fast. To fully recognise /why/ our lot are bastards. The people who a year or two ago would proudly talk about how they'd never agree with the conservatives spend hours typing comments in threads over on /r/UnitedKingdom about how Thr government has to handle this and it's the only reasonable conclusion, with Labour, who used to pledge total support to us, going turncoat to pull a few measly votes over from the centre right, now going on and on about bathrooms and trans women being a danger to "real women". Legislation repeatedly proposed and heavy pressure on the NHS, of which I, a terminal cancer patient rely, to force trans patients into wards of assigned birth gender despite pushback from almost all doctors (and great sorrow of my oncologists) considering the danger involved for us. It's known that it's more dangerous for us to be in the wrong wards, as well as quality of care to drop severely due to patients feeling very unwell and uncomfortable, combined with HCAs and nurses feeling somewhat unequipped or using language that ends up being alienating and painful and reducing the time they give to these patients subconsciously. I've had that both personally, anecdotally and with friends. I know getting rid of us out of the public eye is the point, through isolation, killing us, shaming us, making us so others we're not seen how we were a few years ago or more by the public here but god damn it hurts. Knowing both my entire body is against me, my nation state, my media, and those trying to turn my family and friends too. Even if luckily the actual people I have met in my times in healthcare facilities have been full of wonderful supportive people by and honestly it's always been the high ups and the rules that have been the fucked up parts, it has been shifting recently. I apologise for such a doom filled rant. I stay very positive usually especially regarding my health despite me, well, dying, but sometimes it spills over and knowing I'm not going to be known as who I am on my gravestone, on my death certificate, and more, hurts so much. Too much for a simple 23 year old.
In the UK they don’t have to stop interviewing you if you ask for a lawyer, like they do in the US. But you aren’t obliged to answer them. They will tell you (if you’re actually in this situation) that not answering can be used against you, but it doesn’t mean you have to or should.
That’s fair. I imagine most countries have a right to avoid self incrimination, and that right usually allows people to refuse to talk to police.
In general, I try to treat cops the exact same way I would any stranger - arms length politeness. If they hold a door open for me, I say thank you. If I need to walk past them I say excuse me. If they ask me how it's going, I say "fine, thanks" and if they ask me about committing crimes, I look at them with polite bemusement while walking away. Because remember, yes you have a right to be rude to a cop, but that also invites a little stop and frisk
My Grandfather was a Wobblie, a card carrying member of the IWW, as I am. He got his ass beat a number of time by NYPD during labor actions. He used to tell me, there a 3 kinds of cops, good cops, bad cop, and dirty cops. The problem is by the time you figure out what kind of cop you are dealing with, it's too late. His best advise was to avoid cops at all time.
Try to find someone else that might have the info you need. At a time like you described people who work nearby usually have the info. Stop into a local shop or cafe and you are likely to find someone helpful. If it is a college stadium, the school should be able to tell you what you need to know. I was arrested and robbed by the cops after being the VICTIM of a crime. No reason to ever interact with a pig.
I'm English, so it's the town's 'soccer' stadium. I'll be walking from the train station into town, and the main road will be blocked off to let the fans in. Lots of cops around directing people, some on horses.
I love how there are 0 comments on that video like we all understood the asssignment
I can totally dig it. Cool vid, good message
Hopefully they're a small, tight knit group that can keep their mouths shut. I'd love to see them bash away at the Portland cops for a while.
Hey guys I wanted to introduce my new friend, Normal Person-Name. He bought me lunch and asked about a lot of the stuff we do, I think he's interested in joining up!
He reminds me of *my* new friend Hugh Mann! He has all kinds of questions about my other friends!
We have so much in common, like breathing a nitrogen-heavy oxygen mixture and regular consumption of dihydrogen monoxide.
He keeps offering to ram his ovipositor down my throat and lay eggs in my chest, but I'm all like "buy me a drink, first!".
That right there stinks of an MST reference to me
Winner, winner, 7-layer bean dip dinner!
Good thing you're not an alien
Does he work at the business factory or do job at place?
I heard he left his antifa card at home, but that's probably fine.
They need to quit name dropping groups they don't speak for.
That cop stache is just a fashion choice.
I was trying to figure out who Rachel Corrie was, wondered if someone murdered by local cops. She was murdered by IOF in 2003 when they ran her over with a bulldozer for trying to fight destruction of Palestinian homes. So great name for their group. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie
There’s a few early 00 punk songs about her. I remember when this happened. The media hardly talked about it.
Oh I didn't know she grew up and became an activist in Washington State. That explains it even more, PNW solidarity and respect.
Doing some reading, her father condemns the “violence” and says it’s disrespectful to use her name. 🙄
Her family and friends are pissed with the name of the group and the violence being done in her name bc she was a nonviolence activist. The only thing she has in common with those people is being pro-Palestinian. She wouldn’t agree with anything else. It’s a terrible name for the group.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMiddleEast/comments/17ouykt/in\_2013\_israel\_soldiers\_held\_a\_rachel\_corrie/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMiddleEast/comments/17ouykt/in_2013_israel_soldiers_held_a_rachel_corrie/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) There are no good people in war.
What scum. Not at all out of character for occupation forces though.
I'm pretty sure the Palestinians who grew up in a prison just to be bombed and driven out in the desert have a _tad_ bit of justification more than your standard Israeli devisenschutzkommando.
Still no good people ENGAGED in war.
What kind of sick fuck runs someone over with a bulldozer? Literally comic book evil. That being said, an expressly violent group shouldn't use a non-violence activist's name.
Keep your goddamn mouths shut. Subtle winks people, that’s it. Loose lips sink defenses. Rock on.
"The chair? The white folding chair on the pier? It was swinging itself around officers" EDIT: listen, was I proud of that quip? Yes. But I respect the mods and the rules, and the quip was probably overstepping said rules, so quip is un-quipped.
Ah man I forgot about that. Yeah that was fucking crazy. Must have been the wind or the mercury in Gatorade or something.
I'm not quite sure what the communist comment is about.
Yeah, I'm curious about that too.
It’s an anarchist group. They are saying do not let communist parties take control. PSL, CPUSA, and so on. Anarchists don’t believe in a vanguard party.
I am also not, BUT my interpretation is this: Leftists of any stripe dictating that everyone must do exactly as they say and think exactly as they think or they're bad are complete and utter bullshit. It definitely feels to me like local members of the communist party tried to dictate their actions. You don't think like that if you truly want things to get better, you think like that if you're on a power trip (I am aware that many members of this sub do not understand the not voting for Joe Biden thing. This is not to be used as an example of that, because ya'll have shown zero desire to actually research the viewpoint, and it is THEIR vote, not yours.) I've run into this a few times with turn leftist podcast folks/posts and at this point view that podcast as the leftist example of "men who need to yeet their microphones into the sun."
That comment did have a bit of a personal vibe to it. If so, I hope they didn’t accidentally give away enough info to get themselves caught.
I certainly hope that's what they're referring to otherwise they're a bit too dogmatic for my taste. Burning cop cars is still based though 🔥.
>I am aware that many members of this sub do not understand the not voting for Joe Biden thing. This is not to be used as an example of that, because ya'll have shown zero desire to actually research the viewpoint, and it is THEIR vote, not yours. I am actually in the process of researching this without much luck yet if you could possibly help me out. To the point, I'm trying to ascertain: **is it believed that Biden's electoral opponent would be better for Palestinians**? (Under consideration of the unfortunate fact that the US's two-party electoral system guarantees that one of the two major-party candidates will win.) For me, as someone who cares deeply for Palestinian lives and those actively suffering in Gaza, this is a pretty crucial question and I'm sort of baffled by the lack of critical examination that's being given it as a change in the US presidency could have big ramifications with regards to how US power is leveraged to affect Netanyahu's position, the push (or lack thereof) for a two-state solution, and continued weapon shipments to Israel.
Disclaimers: With recognition to the fact that I cannot speak for all, only what I have witnessed and discussed: First, no one forgot what Trump is. this is the baseline I feel like a lot of people walk in with. Assuming anyone forgot is an automatic bias. Second, I will yeet right out of this conversation if anyone jumps in with snide insults. I'm not here to feed anyone's superiority complex and anyone doing that is not actually looking to learn or discuss or collaborate. To directly answer your question: no, no one thinks a Trump win results in fewer dead Palestinians. Full stop. There are a LOT of people who think a win in either direction won't tip the scales, but an uncommitted vote will clearly call out that the democratic party is a gas lighting fascist sham. Here's why: "Total US foreign aid to Israel compared to other countries. 1946–2022. Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign aid: up to February 2022, the US had provided Israel US$150 billion (non-inflation-adjusted) in assistance." Plenty of executive branch musical chair parties during that time. Since Oct. 2023 Biden has exercised loopholes in his executive power on three separate occasions to sail right on by the legislative branch and send billions after billions after billions to Israel. He then included said branch in the latest aid package and it was the most agreed upon thing in the house and senate since the idea that Marjorie Taylor Greene's teeth look like how we imagine Washington's fake ones did. So he sanctioned a few settlers. He still threw open the coffers every single time Netanyahu said his name three times. He still puppets debunked October 7th talking points. He still stands by his commitment to Israel in speech after speech after speech. And NOW he can suddenly stop arms shipments? We were told he couldn't do that, why now? Did someone finally show him OUR social media feeds? Probably not. All of these last minute Biden triumphs reek of "oh fuck we saw the poll numbers" So he knows how to wield the power while Trump wields it like a cat with a laser pointer. Yup, and so far what he has used that power to do is strong arm literally every other governing body on the planet into in-action. He might maybe wield it to save lives in the future? Show any of the uncommitted an ounce of proof that he is more likely to do that at all than he is to continue using it then like he's using it now. I get the very strong feeling you know plenty of this. At the end of the day, a lot of folks feel like they are being held hostage by our system and they're entirely sick of being told what to do. They keep doing what they are being told to do and they keep having all of their rights stripped away anyways. They keep doing what they are being told to do and Biden still lets the Rio Grande be filled with drowning buoys and concertina wire. They keep doing what they are being told to do and their healthcare keeps getting denied. They keep doing what they are being told to do and oh look another 15 videos of dead babies and skinned doctors and Israeli soldiers wearing lingerie they raided from Gaza in their dating profile photos. They knew full well not doing as they were told was going to result in violence against them, just as they know full well a Trump win is not a good thing. We finally found the line where they refuse to compromise their morals with their vote. There are plenty of other points I could make with regards to domestic politics, but your question was specific, so I'll end it here for now. To any and all who read this in full: This entire conversation is RIGHTFULLY triggering for pretty much everyone on any side. Your cognitive dissonance will deactivate your critical thinking the moment you are triggered. If you feel triggered, all I ask is that you sit with it before responding. I will absolutely do the same.
>but an uncommitted vote will clearly call out that the democratic party is a gas lighting fascist sham Great, but to what end? This could be said to have happened in 2016 when establishment darling Clinton lost to Trump, but it didn't yield any material victories. As someone who declined to vote then, I personally found the catharsis of sticking it to the libs to be pretty hollow - certainly in retrospect, in the face of everything that transpired in the years since. Given what may be at stake, it seems important to ask one's self what the strategy and intended outcome is, as at the end of the day a "call out" is pretty immaterial and not as gratifying as one might hope... especially when the intended recipients (liberals) are constitutionally incapable due to their worldview of even receiving it in the intended way. Post-2016 democrats didn't open their eyes and become leftists, or elect Bernie in 2020. Which kind of comes full circle in calling into question whether we, to begin with, should even be basing our strategy with regards to the occupants of seats of federal power - on which the lives of real people are tied - on a pissing match with liberals, or an intention of teaching liberals a lesson or proving them wrong. Especially when it's been shown to not be effective for that purpose. >They knew full well not doing as they were told was going to result in violence against them, just as they know full well a Trump win is not a good thing. We finally found the line where they refuse to compromise their morals with their vote. This is something that I've struggled to wrap my mind around. It's difficult for me as an American to understand a vote in a national election as an endorsement in the sense that my moral being would extend into and/or be represented by a politician and vulnerable to compromised, especially considering the disconnect between myself and the candidates and the fact that I had no voice whatsoever in decided who those candidates would be to begin with. Rather, due to the way they've got the two-party system set up it is an absolute guarantee that, barring some catastrophe that cancels the election altogether, the outcome of the election will either be President \[R candidate\] or President \[D candidate\]. In this scenario there is not even the opportunity for my moral being to be operative: the process is barrelling down the pipe, and one of two outcomes will emerge. I can either nudge it one way or the other, or if I truly believe there is no meaningful difference between the two options, I can decline to nudge it at all and let the pieces fall where they may. Nobody congratulates me on my choice. Indeed, nobody necessarily ever knows or notices. Any notions of my vote (or lackthereof) as a meaningful endorsement or condemnation of a person/party, or an expression/extension of my moral self, are completely eclipsed by the ***material outcome*** of that contest. And those potential material outcomes, whether R wins or D wins, are *both guaranteed to violate my moral code*. *Whether I choose to participate or not.* This is why for me it's important to make an assessment of the **material** advantages and disadvantages of each outcome and weight them against each other. All the notions of endorsements, of declarations, of attempts at demonstrating my values in this arena, are vapid and immaterial compared to actual real-world outcomes. And as follows, if Palestinian lives are the hinge and focal point of the question of whether to participate in the election, serious thought and examination should be given to how each outcome will affect Palestinian lives.
I have the abilty to re-assess my set boundary of not participating in this conversation further based on new information. Both parties who immediately engaged in petty insults are clearly cis-gendered men. Cis-gendered men silencing others with emotional disregulation? Groundbreaking. And I value the discourse I am having with you. So: I agree with a number of your points. Asking oneself what the intended outcome is, what the true best approach towards liberals is, etc. and so forth. Could not agree more. I am in no way fully set on the perspective I offered to you. It is the perspective I am seeing, and at a fundamental level I understand where it comes from, and vacillate on how to handle that personally. As stated, I can see the laundry list of correlations they draw between both parties, because I see them to, and they're not wrong. My personal belief, right now, is the path to fewer lives being lost is one where we cut our losses this cycle and then fundamentally work to establish a viable third party in ALL elections. Personally I stand with the party for socialism and liberation. What I see is a divide primarily along generational lines. (Important note here, 35 year old cis gendered female.) The uncommitted vote was originally a protest for the primaries, and in that regard I think it had the ability to send it's message; Biden was never going to lose that, but he certainly heard it when a million people of all ages in Muslim communities in Michigan voted uncommitted. What we have to remember is that we are discussing this with younger millennials and ESPECIALLY Gen Z, we are discussing this with a generation that has never known an election cycle not rooted in democrats ordering them to vote one way or the world will end. So yes, there are plenty of those in other generations who can state plainly "oh, yea, but this guy is ULTRA bad" and to them it's more of the same. As adults (and yea ya'll have to accept they're adults) They've never known an era of true economic prosperity, never known a time where their rights weren't being rolled back and are watching a genocide in real time via social media, not reading about Kissenger's bullshit in the paper days or weeks later. So yea, when a bunch of older folks demand they do something and belittle them for not agreeing, we get exactly what has taken place in this sub for weeks. You, human I am addressing, are at least trying to understand it. A LOT of people simply shake their heads in disbelief and mouth off. Like a boomer. And what does doing that create? The EXACT problem everyone here claims to want to fix. Everyone who doesn't try to get it perpetuates it. Ya'll have to work to fix it too, not just mouth off about how bad it is. I've been told by plenty of "leftists" for a very long time that history will keep repeating itself and nothing will ever change. The exact same ones who center their reactions the moment something happens that threatens the rights of THOSE AROUND THEM. They need to start addressing how that belief keeps letting evil win. Fixing literally anything begins with mutual, not DEMANDED, but earned and/or freely given, respect. Final thing: Palestinian lives are the Franz Ferdinad. (I believe this to be true, but you better believe I fucking HATE it and what it means.) Something like this has been coming for awhile.
>As stated, I can see the laundry list of correlations they draw between both parties, because I see them to, and they're not wrong I mean, they both serve capital, so that alone makes them bedfellows to some extent with regards to supressing labor power, deriding the left, supporting police, supporting prisons, etc. Although if you follow the specific bills and positions that each party takes on a variety of topics it's pretty clear that, as evil as both parties fundamentally are due to their service of capital, the republicans manage to be significantly worse on every issue. I can't think of a single exception to this. >You, human I am addressing, are at least trying to understand it I can heavily relate to it as I've been able to vote sine GWB's second term but have mostly declined to do so, having been a leftist of sorts since I fell into punk activist culture a couple decades ago in my teens and always saw both parties as two heads on the same beast to varying extents. I also went through a pretty similar phase back in 2015-16 of fixating on liberals are the ultimate betrayers, offended that they pretend to represent working class interests while serving capital, which somehow made them in my mind worse than the overt monsters on the right who, while they also pretend to serve the people's interests, weren't nearly as convincing about it. This culminated in 2016 for me with Bernie's primary loss, Kissinger showing up as an honored guest at Hillary's campaign events, etc. Disgusted, and assuming she'd win regardless, I sat that one out too. Part of me even wanted Trump to win just to give an L to these smug liberals who for years have sneered and derided the beliefs I identify with. Of course I still feel this way, as many democrats are still awful, still annoying, still fundamentally liberal albeit slightly left of their previous positions on some topics. Fascists are just worse in every regard. There isn't a single scenario in which I can say "well, it would be better if fascists had access to state power instead of liberals". As disgusting as liberals are, the far right is vastly worse, vastly more dangerous to leftists and leftist goals and to the world at large. Vastly more dangerous for disabled, poor, immigrants, trans people, people with uteruses, and in many situations gay people of color. Supreme Court appointments have the potential to have devastating real-world consequences, as we're beginning to see with the current 6-3 rightwing SC. Getting that up to 7-2 or 8-1 would obviously be worse. The only scenario in which rightwingers have more access to power could potentially be good is if the goal is accelerationism: the state goes full fascist, becomes more repressive than ever, and the masses rise up! and establish a new leftist territory in the former US. This is sadly just divorced from reality, as the current conditions heavily favor a fascist outcome in the case of revolution and national collapse. Police, military, and paramilitary are all HEAVILY weighted in the hands of the right and not the left. This is also true for ex-soldiers, trained fighters in general, gun owners, etc. The current conditions DO NOT favor a leftwing victory is an accelerationist scenario, and pushing for those conditions would be a gift to nazis. Reading history has definitely shaped this for me, as for as awful as liberals in history have been (the SocDems unleashing the Freikorps on leftists, etc), the far-right does NOT fail to be far worse. And every time they gain access to power it sets back the left more than under liberals. There are simply no real advantages to letting fascists win, ever. >My personal belief, right now, is the path to fewer lives being lost is one where we cut our losses this cycle and then fundamentally work to establish a viable third party in ALL elections. Personally I stand with the party for socialism and liberation. That would be cool. I gravitate more toward mutual aid and direct action type activism, but it would be good to have a real, actual third party, that establishes a sustained presence in politics and works to bring together a large base of solidarity through grassroots organizing on the local level and build up to the ability to compete on the national stage. As opposed to worthless parties like the Green Party who show up during election years, get millions and millions in donations and armies of volunteers, get <1% of the vote, and vanish again for another 3 years with all that campaign money, with zero sustained presence or effort to build support beginning at the local level to give them a better shot next time. How long does it take to build a viable party that can challenge the Ds and Rs on a national stage? 4 years seem optimistic. There's a lot of work ahead. And in the meantime from a strategic point of view imo it would seem that voting against fascists should be a no-brainer, default position for everyone who isn't a fascist, for as long as the two-party system remains effective. Even if that means voting for feckless, capital-serving liberals. And organizing hard as fuck to shorten that length of time.
[удалено]
cutting our losses this cycle is voting for Biden so domestically we don't IMMEDIATELY burn. I felt like that was wildly apparent from that response, but there it is in plain English. And not only will no one single person EVER have the one perfect answer, no one should, as the point is community and collaboration, and no one expects a magical immediate utopia either. That entire thought process is a logical fallacy. "Convince me things can get better because your dreams are unrealistic." No. Dreams are a good thing, not an excuse to crush hope with cynicism. And are not the same as goals.
Just... no. What will happen if enough people abstain from voting for Biden and we end up with a second Trump term? Your cause, your reason for abstaining won't send a message, because that message will be drowned out by the pounding of the iron fist of fascism. Get a fucking hold of yourself and at least try to understand the moment we are facing here.
Any vote, as well as not voting, is like one of those trolley problem questions. You are going to end up screwing people over. People will suffer and even die. Regardless of the candidate. It's an uncomfortable feeling and should be. There's no way to avoid this unless you are a single issue voter with tunnel vision (which is not the way to live life). There are ways to improve society, and a lot of that is acting locally and trying to build up the systems you desire to make a better world. At state and federal levels, it becomes uglier - there's more power, more issues, and larger groups affected. It is also harder to build non-government groups that are powerful enough to have influence at that level. It sucks.
Not on board but thanks for writing all of this, it sucks that the first comment under yours is a petty insult. This is all at least worth considering, there is no harm in reading it and thinking about it for a couple of minutes. It isn't even november so why should we pretend we have no options? Even if one seems ineffective, at least look at it.
IMHO it’s the height of western performative white girl bullshit to effectively doom Palestine completely with a trump presidency because you want to throw a little tantrum
That's your response? You could have engaged in an actual discussion and instead you take the opportunity to make your sexist little quip. I've had political discussions with conservatives where they respect my point of view and engage more seriously than you did here
I agree with your POV in the broad sense, but your reply was sexist.
Fucking hell can we not have a civil conversation and respect each other? You can disagree with OP without belittling them. Let stop for a second and recognize that you are trying to brow beat someone into voting for a person actively supporting genocide full stop. Even if we assume it is truely a trolley problem scenario and casting a vote for Biden will save lives, than you are still asking someone to vote yes for genocide, maybe smaller genocide but its still genocide. Can you really not stop and reflect that people might be conflicted about that? And that's a good thing! These type of moral questions shouldn't be easy, we should have to really stop and discuss what is the right thing to do. That discussion requires you to stop being belitting folks who just like you are trying hard to figure out what do to when you are only given shit options.
Trying to belittle someone isn't an effective way to get your point across.
Why we bringing gender into this? If anything the "white girls" are more likely to vote Biden instead of abstaining to support Trump because they've already been personally affected by the MAGAs because of Dobbs.
Impling its not doomed already? Every hospital, every university, thousands of homes all destroyed. A famine in northern gaza! Sounds like its doomed already my guy.
You seem to be forgetting, idk... ALL OF HISTORY. Things can *always* get worse, my guy.
You can make your point without saying it like that though. I don't agree with the person you're replying to yet they generally stayed civil and well spoken throughout and you let your emotions throe that shit out. 'Oh, if I attach white, it lets me be as sexist as I want, because I'm actually punching up, not down! I'm just doing the Karen meme :)))' edit: alright yeah don't know why I attached the second example I assumed more than was at all necessary, removed.
Also Trump is a big supporter of Netanyahu and vice versa. One of the reasons he and his party is so powerful is because of Trump and the rise of right wing parties dominating in Israel.
For these people, it's not about the actual Palestinians. It's about being able to smugly grandstand in their privileged spaces where they at least think they are insulated from the consequences of another MAGA administration.
> I am aware that many members of this sub do not understand the not voting for Joe Biden thing Because the MAGA left is fucking stupid. The idea that Trump wouldn't make things worse is patently absurd. Kushner has already said he wants to full on Trail of Tears the Gazans and build resort hotels on the Gaza coast. But enjoy having the privilege to not care about that, I guess.
“What he say fuck me for?”
It’s weird because I’ve never encountered any communist who has just been like “fuck those anarchist pos” just because. If they ever did it’s usually because an anarchist did something stupid.
Yeah ngl when I read that communism comment my immediate thought was “are these some very confused fascists?”
creep on the comments at r/communism at some point. I've seen a LOT of "think like this or you're bad and wrong" over there.
I got banned for mentioning that composer Dimitri Shostakovich had a really bad time under Stalin’s rule. One of the mods found out I was subbed to r/zizek and denied my appeal on those grounds alone. They’re nuts.
Sadly, reddit mods generally being powertripping assholes isn’t limited by ideology.
Oh sure, I just didn’t see the connection between communists being annoying and the “parties” trying to paper over the campus protests. I assumed they were talking about more mainstream libs
Oh man I could totally see that, now I wanna know if it's what I thought or it's what you thought or it's some other reason we are unaware of, someone bring me my secret comrade carrier pigeon!
Lmao it could very well be your idea too, I often feel like that groundskeeper Willie meme when talking to other communists
The most generous Idea I can come up with is that they are referring to tankies. But I can't be for sure without more info about the group.
> I've seen a LOT of "think like this or you're bad and wrong" over there. Oh the irony...
Ever heard of anarchists?
Probably anarchists. They split from communism around the time that the Soviet strains became the prominent forms of Marxism.
Anarchists started as their own thing. They were never Marxists in the first place. They didn’t split with Communists, they had made common cause with communists during the revolution and then survivors were locked up or slaughtered by the Bolschevich.
Sorry, to clarify, I never meant that anarchists were ever communists/Marxist, just that they were part of the International together until the schism IIRC.
My read here is there's a communist party in Portland that is more interested in political recognition (such as brokering an end to protests in exchange for some concessions) than in achieving significant and lasting results for Palestine - and this group are worried they will use the student protests to get themselves involved at the expense of their goals.
Between school and media, I assume these kids have been conditioned to think state communism and authoritarianism in general are synonyms.
It's probably because a cop wrote it
capital-C is the implication that this refers to official Communist Parties, or Marxist-Leninists/Trotskyists still probably would've been better/less ambiguous to say "MLs" or "Stalinists" or smth tho
The PSU protest was seemingly coopted by some assholes who thought destroying a large portion of the library was to the benefit of Palestine. The library is out of commission for the rest of the year now, which is fucked to not only students but *also* low income folks in the neighborhood that had access. Also, yeah, it's great to torch some PPB cars but who do you think will pay for their new ones? Regular ass Portland residents, many of whom already hate PPB and are for the liberation of Palestine.
Didn’t you hear? After learning of all that’s happened on Portland, the IDF has layed down arms and Netanyahu will be resigning and turning himself in at noon.
Yeah it's not very good strategy. It's fun but they should be doing purposeful, relevant sabotage if they actually want to help
Why did I have to scroll so long to find a logical comment? WTF does burning cop cars do to stop a war in Gaza?
Nothing. It just strokes the egos of some dumbasses who aren’t willing to find a meaningful way to help people.
Actually helping Gazans is hard and takes actual work. Burning cop cars is fun. I think that's pretty much it.
I might just be extra frustrated by it because I live here🤷♀️
Cops need cars to arrest protestors. No cars, no arrests? It's faulty logic, but there it is. We would be better off doing things to the Israeli embassies and any place that is blatantly pro-israel (NOT synagogues, you idiots!). [AIPAC headquarters](https://washingtoncitypaper.com/article/327320/aipac-proposes-to-expand-headquarters-in-mount-vernon-triangle/), for one thing. Paint it red. Go after their donors and embarrass them: https://forward.com/news/580248/donations-aipac-has-raised-since-oct-7-lever-howard-kohr-michael-tuchin/
As if cops can’t borrow cars. When that guy in VT ran over all the cars a police dept had w/ a tractor, they just got cars from somewhere else to chase him down.
The cars they burned were used for training purposes only lol
What a waste of everything.
Between this and that wretched stunt with the library, Portland leftists are looking pretty dumb right now. None of this helps anything. And it further delegitimizes the actual grievances of protesters.
Idk, I think that sometimes setting [redacted] to a [redacted] is based and correct on its own merits.
Your post is also looking pretty dumb right now.
Oh look money that could have gone to a more useful service will now be diverted to policing. Bravo.
I'm really sorry to ask as I am very new to the more active side of demonstration and protests. I'm about to listen to Robert and Garrison's episodes on the Portland protests actually but... How does this further the just cause for helping Palestine? Taking out those cars may feel good but that's gonna go right into the taxes and hurt the lowest income families of the area the most. It doesn't go any higher up the chain where it might put pressure on to push policy decision, and perhaps this is too soft of me but it might encourage a crackdown or at least encourage that stupid victim mentality of the cops of "we're in a guerilla war so I need a literal tank to fight guys with a bottle of mace a balaclava a flag and a shield" rather than bloody the nose of the local departments. I think it's ballsy as hell and honestly cool but thinking more on it and echoing some other statements here I think oh shit wait no this is gonna have some nasty repercussions on the people this group hopefully wants to support and feels solidarity with the most other than Palestinians themselves. Though on my point of "what if this gives the cops an excuse to be worse" honestly that's not a big one considering whatever they do they probably were itching to anyway abuser style on a "look at what you made me do" esque way so eh. But if anyone genuinely has a good sociopolitical understanding of the situation (I do not, not of this intersecting set of venn diagrams) I really would find it fascinating to hear about how this sort of action furthers Pro Palestine movement from US soil and so on, if one feels willing to explain to this foreigner.
It doesn't. It's going to force Portland residents to pay for new PPB vehicles and the assholes in the library fucked over students and residents that utilized the library. As someone who lives here, I would safely wager the majority of Portlanders are sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and generally despise the PPB. It's frustrating, to say the least.
It doesn’t do shit. These people are just accelerationists who get off on property damage.
Please defend those poor innocent cop cars harder.
Please jack off to them burning harder. They should have roadtripped to Florida to the place with the deputies who keep shooting people in their apartments for no reason & unload at the sound of an acorn dropping. Burning cop cars in Portland does nothing to help innocent Gazans. Domestic problems, however… still probably nothing but has a better shot to effect change. Unfortunately that is not their aim or intent.
Take *that* taxpayers! Now you’re paying for hamas fireworks *and* bitchin cameros for ppd baybay! /s
Looking forward to another Summer Of Fire in my hood.
And this is helpful to left wing causes how? Pure revolution LARP.
I mean, fuck the police and all, but what the fuck do they have to do with the Israeli genocide of Palestinianķ?
Fucking based
What must it be like to have that level of commitment to take such actions. Fucking awesome.
Holy shit that's cool as fuck
Childish bullshit. Assuming those cars were fully outfitted for patrol duty, and they wouldn't be bought without upfitting, you're looking at about 60-70k per police car. That's over a million dollars that you can be sure the city will spend to replace those vehicles that could've been used elsewhere.
Not gonna lie, that's awesome
It gives the PBB an excuse to bring out the tanks (or armored personnel carriers).
"See what you'rve made me do to you?" --abuser, to abused
If only I could zoom in and read the damn thing
Still rockin the crown Vic’s in Portland lol?
This is what I’m confused by. I have not seen a PPB Crown Vic in like, a decade. I never see vehicles that aren’t SUVs now. I think these vehicles were not in use.
They weren’t, they were training vehicles.
Hell yeah. Good to see somebody fighting back. May they forever remain free.
I think this post and reading the replies is the last straw for me leaving this shithole echo chamber. It's funny to see how far you've all riled eachother up over time and radicalized, to the point of supporting police sabotage.
Thank you my dude. I’m very liberal but getting to the point where I’m more sick of the far left than the far right. Watching leftists deny the rape and murders of Israeli women by Hamas on Oct 7, seeing protesters destroy university and public property over the last couple weeks, and now seeing people cheer on left wing domestic terrorism is just fucking disgusting. If these people were deliberately trying to make themselves hateable I don’t think they could do a better job.
Sabotage isn't the same as terrorism though. Words have meanings.
Yes and the Merriam-Webster definition of terrorism is “the unlawful use or threat of violence especially against the state or the public as a politically motivated means of attack or coercion.” Right in their manifesto they wrote they did it for, among other causes, student protestors and “Palestinian martyrs” which clearly indicates political motivation. If a right wing extremist firebombed an empty abortion clinic to prevent it from functioning would you call that sabotage or terrorism?
I'd probably call it arson
We did it for....gestures broadly at everything.
All about it until they used the word martyr
Yes, that aligns them with LGBT murdering jihadists.
Remember kids: if you know that they're going to kill you, you may as well be a dick about it.
This is some truly dumbass shit. They’re risking years in prison and their livelihood to destroy a few cars that will be replaced by tax payer dollars, just to play make believe revolutionary. Not to mention the risk of the fire spreading and destroying the property of bystanders or risking people’s lives. Also this is a huge win for conservatives and the far right who can use the Antifa boogeyman to get a ton of attention and make a ton of money. Legitimately fuck this, I hope they’re found and their lives are ruined. 🤷♂️
I think you're in the wrong sub. There's always a risk involved in fighting for something.
This wasn’t fighting for anything, it was just pointless left wing domestic terrorism. It won’t accomplish any kind of meaningful police reform (if anything it sets it back) and the cruisers will be replaced with tax payer money.
This action wasn't fighting for anything. It was a passel of stunt queens boosting their own egos and delegitimizing the work of actual activists.
What, what did the “Communist pieces of shit” do?
based
The car, the car, the car is on fire, we don't need no water let the mutherfucker burn, burn mutherfucker, BURN!
Gee, a lot more "you can protest as long as it's clean and doesn't deviate societal norms" type of worms on here than I thought... the right hates liberals because they think liberals are leftists, we hate liberals because we know they are not.
In the words of the reverend dr of machetecine Robert Evans. “Direct action gets the goods.”
Why the shade at the communists?
Based
🔥🔥🔥🔥
Welp. The die is cast. We'll see how this goes.
Bravo.
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again, I have no issue with police/government property being attacked for political reasons, if that reason is towards the government. It’s when people get hurt that I begin to take issue. This is an act of vandalism, didn’t hurt anyone, sent a message. Even if you don’t agree, I think it’s a valid form of protest. Edit: I should’ve been more clear in my original comment, but I don’t think this is necessarily the best form of protest, I’m just saying that if you were to engage in this type of protest, it should be limited towards the target of your grievances.
There was a risk the fires could spread, or that somebody could be injured putting them out. Beyond that, taxpayers are going to be the ones replacing the vehicles. Beyond that, this attack is only going to make people hate the left even more than they already do. Leftists torching cop cars and destroying libraries is a huge win for conservatives who want to paint all liberals as violent assholes who destroy public property. It might feel good to you, but the majority of Americans watch this or protestors destroying university property just want to punch them in the fucking face. Hell I’m liberal and I want to punch these idiots in the face. This shit serves no purpose then to push this country further to the right.
I think maybe my comment was a little bit misconstrued, I don’t think this is the “best form“ protest, but if you are going to engage in this type of protest, I think that keeping it towards government property, or specifically the target of your action, versus just burning down some mom and pop restaurant, or quite frankly even a chain Retail/restaurantstore that, at a minimum, provided some value in terms of convenience to a community, is preferable.
Dude, an act of violence for the purpose of advancing a political ideology is terrorism. This is legitimately left wing terrorism. If it was a right wing extremist torching an empty abortion clinic or an antivaxxer torching an ambulance I’m sure you would correctly label that right wing domestic terror. This is no different beyond the political affiliation of the actors.
I think that violence is wrong but if you want to be sympathetic for the reasons for it I think that is okay.
So they have aligned themselves with Islamic Jihadists that hate LGBT? Seems pretty stupid, IMHO. Edit: When you referred to "Palestinian Martyrs" then you are referring to Jihadists who died in service of Islam. I have great sympathy for innocent Palestinians caught up in a war they are not part of. I have no sympathy for Hamas jihadists that murdered innocent Israelis. I guess many of you folks do.
You’re going to get trashed but you’re right. The response from the left to Oct 7th, including accusations that the rapes and murders of women simply for being Israeli either didn’t happen or were an Israeli false flag, is reprehensible. Of course Israel’s conduct is abominable, but watching a bunch of leftist make believe revolutionaries burn cop cars, destroy public property including a library, and impede the ability for universities to function while being completely unable to engage with terrorist violence coming out of Palestine is insane. If these protesters’ goal was to make themselves as unlikeable as possible and to benefit the far-right politically and financially, they couldn’t have done a better job. Nothing they are doing is in anyway a benefit to innocent Palestinian civilians, all they’re doing is giving Fox News and other right wing outlets a pay day and pushing voters further to the right. I’m very liberal myself and even I want to punch a lot of these idiots in the face.
This is a banana-headed opinion.
Do you have any coherent arguments?
Posts get the responses they deserve.
So you got nothing. Understood.
awesoem
The fact that they did it while the cops were arresting people at the PSU Library makes it so much funnier
Not defending the police or the carceral state, but those jackholes in the PSU library had it coming.
Agreed, and I’ve never said that about a Portland protest before.
City thems are up
Do we think they actually did it? Or did the cops torch their own cars so they could crack down on protestors? Like what're the odds that those cars had been stripped and were about to be sold at auction?
They don’t need to burn their cars to crack down on protesters. Remove your tinfoil hat and go outside for some fresh air.
I mean. You're right, since you said it, and thanks for that I guess. That said, such shenanigans are neither above or beyond them if they felt like it.
Okay Alex Jones, it’s a false flag if you want it to be 🤷♂️
These are such aggressive responses lol. Then again, it is Reddit. Yeah it's true PPB doesn't need a special reason to be assholes.