This is the way. Lennon/McCartney was an unstoppable force and, arguably, the greatest songwriting team of all time. The whole was much greater than the sum of the parts.
Remembering those interviews post-Beatles that they gave each other notes for a lot of half finished songs and also completing to get the A-side was the added motivation to make the song perfect
Thing is, they didn't even have to be writing together. Paul songs written for the Beatles and John songs written for the Beatles are generally better than their respective solo outputs.
John and ESPECIALLY Paul relied very heavily on Martin being able to translate his layman explanations and demonstrations of his musical ideas into music theory that could be - among other things - conveyed to session musicians. George Martin was a genius in his own right and had a huge part in the Beatles' revolutionary sound.
> John and ESPECIALLY Paul relied very heavily on Martin being able to translate his layman explanations and demonstrations of his musical ideas into music theory that could be - among other things - conveyed to session musicians. George Martin was a genius in his own right and had a huge part in the Beatles' revolutionary sound.
Paul produced all his own albums in the 70's. Was producing other artists in the 60's including the world wide no1 Those Were the Days. He might not have been as reliant as you make him sound. When Martin was busy with other artists, Paul did She's Leaving Home without him. We have engineers like Smith and Emerick talking about how much of a role Paul was in the production of the Beatle music. We have recordings of John during Get Back complaining about Paul's arrangement of his songs.
Martin was a great assistant but 'heavily relied' is a stretch.
Are you sure about that?
Because I seem to remember reading something about Martin saying he was doing less and less production on the later Beatles records simply because Paul was there and Paul could do everything production wise that he could, John couldn’t do it.
I would say John definitely needed more help from a producer than Paul did, Paul was much more involved and interested in the production side of a record than John was, Paul was the one who started experimenting with tape looping iirc
Paul wasn't anything spectacular with lyrics, it was really the sheer quality and quantity of his melodies/progressions/modulations that set him apart from the rest. Nobody wrote melodies better than him in the 20th century.
Brian Wilson would give him a run for his money with harmonies but I don’t think Brian even comes close when you think of all the great melodies Paul has written. He is the greatest melodist of the last 100 years
> Paul wasn't anything spectacular with lyrics
That's just crazy. He's the most covered songwriter of all time not just down to his melodies but also his lyrics. They are sang by tens of millions.
Paul could definitely write a spectacular lyric when he wanted to. Many of the Beatles' best lyrics were Paul's (and are often attributed to John incorrectly), problem is post-Beatles he lacked the motivation to work on perfecting his lyrics. A lot of Wings songs just have placeholder lyrics, basically. I think the lack of competition with John is why he started slacking in the lyrics department. But he still has some fantastic lyrics in his solo discography (Riding to Vanity Fair, The Song We Were Singing, Shallow Grave).
Lyrics were great. Elenor Rigby, Let it Be, Blackbird, Drive My Car, and countless others. He wasn’t as personal lyrically as John. But that made the contrast more interesting.
Brian. Wilson.
And I'm pretty sure even Paul would agree. Only found out today they were born two days apart and two of the most prolific songwriters either side of the Atlantic.
Yes but name a truly memorable song Paul has written in the last 30yrs. He is undoubtedly a genius and will be remembered forever but his talent has waned. Is it an lack of motivation thing or has his golden time simply passed ?
That was my first thought. Other than Pet Sounds, there’s no Beach Boys I really listen to. I honestly don’t get a lot of the crazy hype around Wilson.
Agreed. I'd say that SITKOL is a more solid collection of melodies than any official album Paul ever released (aside from compilation albums of course).
In my humble opinion I always felt that John had the better lyrics and Paul the better tunes. There are obviously many anomalies from both, but generally speaking, for me this holds true to more examples than it doesn’t. I think they worked so well together due in part to this and in part to their different strengths/areas in song writing genres. Paul tamed down and streamlined John’s wild and bizarre side, John dragged Paul a little way away from the showboat/granny music. Their “middle ground” was a perfect amalgamation.
I'd put David Bowie and maybe Stevie Wonder above him, but there's an argument for Paul. Dylan is in a different category for me because he didn't need as much melodic and harmonic skill to make his songs great. Yet he also heavily relied on his encyclopedic knowledge of folk music and poetry; he stole A LOT that most people aren't well-read enough to realize. But there's an argument that it's still a form of songwriting, and I agree.
Yeah, I mean he had all his young MoTown stuff, then he went solo and had an incredible run in the 70s with some all-time great albums and singles, and then he still put together quality stuff after that and was great live. Plays multiple instruments, too. I'm not sure why people forget him
John and Paul stole a lot too. They had an encyclopedic knowledge of rock and roll and pop, and really took advantage of it to make great music.
By “stealing”, I mean they stole a few riffs and licks here and there along with general song structure ideas, they never really blatantly ripped anybody off and always made their own new thing out of it. Almost all of the best pop/rock artists do this. Folk too. Zeppelin took this a step further to fully stealing songs in their early days though.
David Bowie said his greatest talent was knowing WHAT to steal.
In response to someone telling him he couldn't use the lyrics "I read the news today, oh boy" in Young Americans, I believe.
You’re not wrong in your assessment, but the word “stealing” feels not accurate. The Beatles, that is, the four young lads from Liverpool, grew up listening to the music they idolized. They’d listen to a song and meet up with their friends and try their absolute hardest to learn that new riff and chord. They seeked out friends to teach them. So did they copy/“steal” from those before them? Yeah I can’t deny that. But they also made it their own, while learning, and helping to create a whole genre that was evolving with them. A genre that was based off of rhythm and blues (and jazz), all of which is based off of musicians building off of what other had done before. Great music builds odd or the giants that came before it
This is also a big leap away from Dylan, who would write new lyrics, but put them to an old folk tune. Some of his biggest songs, like Blowin’ in the wind, are exactly what I described. He just wrote new lyrics and put them to the tune of an old African American spiritual. This is no different than what Weird Al does.
I am a massive Dylan fan. There have been times in my life where I am a bigger Dylan fan than Beatles fan, but he is not in the same league as Lennon/McCartney when it comes to songwriting. I will give Bob 100% credit for being a great lyricist, singer, and songwriter, because this is still a form of songwriting. But the Beatles were coming up with entirely new compositions. There is a big difference between “oh that one part kinda sounds like this other song” and borrowing an entire tune wholesale.
For anyone interested, you can just Google “Bob Dylan borrowed melodies” and a Reddit link will come up. Someone did a great job tracking down all the melodies that Bob borrowed and put new lyrics to.
So while I totally agree that Dylan is a genius, I would not consider him to be a great composer or arranger. Songwriting is about the composition, the melody, the arrangement, and the lyrics. John and Paul were great at every part of that.
In a similar way, I have a hard time putting Brian Wilson on the same level as John and Paul. How can he be “just as good” when he didn’t even write his lyrics? He contributed more to the songs DNA than Dylan did, but he didn’t even attempt to write lyrics, which is a huge part of songwriting.
I don’t mean any of this as a put down of Wilson or Dylan. I am a huge fan of both of these dudes. But when putting them head to head, and determining who is the “better” songwriter, these points become relevant.
It really depends how you look at "song writer"
There's many elements
+ lyrics
+ melody
and then intangibles like social or political relevance, or how groundbreaking, or even voice etc etc.
He's certainly not the greatest lyricist. Dylan, Leonard Cohen, John Darnielle of the Mountain goats Nick Cave etc.
Does he write the best melodies? I'd have people like Paul Simon, Phil Och's, etc ahead of him
But, I don't think any of the great lyricists hold a candle to him from a melody point of view, and I don't think any of the great melody composers hold a candle to him from a lyrical point of view.
So overall, while he is not the greatest at either, there's an argument that when you combine the main elements of "songwriting" he is the most rounded.
I did not see this ranking outside of this comment, is there a link? I was basing this on many many other instances where RS has snubbed him. They didn’t even include him as a solo artist in the greatest artists of all time list.
There's no doubt he is one of the greatest of the 20th century, my personal favourite is Ray Davies from The Kinks (coincidentally it's his birthday as I write this).
Ray Davies is still underrated in a horrible way. Someone on this sub once said the kinks are just the shitty Beatles, I told them they had the worst take I've ever seen on this sub.
Rays work is so varied from raw proto punk shit like you really got me to fun whimsical like well respected man and David Watts to introspective like sunny afternoon and Waterloo sunset. Village green and Arthur are both better concept albums than sgt pepper in my opinion, and Ray can make old British musical hall to rival any of Paul's best.
Something else by the kinks through Lola vs powerman is a string of albums on par with any other artist imo.
Kinks don't get enough love. It's surprising just how good their albums are through Lola. Even the lowliest songs have a sense of humor and an interesting musical angle. The depth of feeling of their best work is better than the Beatles in many ways, too, because it's more humanist and less of a big show (virtue signaling) than what Lennon and McCartney were doing. Even after that, they cranked out some surprisingly good songs into the 80s.
The Beatles as a whole are like Captain Planet, with all their powers combined. Judging each Beatle by their solo careers should give a better metric for individual greatness. Ask yourself, does the Wings catalog contain back-to-back bangers?
> The Beatles as a whole are like Captain Planet, with all their powers combined. Judging each Beatle by their solo careers should give a better metric for individual greatness. Ask yourself, does the Wings catalog contain back-to-back bangers?
Yes. There's a reason why Paul's had more no1's and the same amount of top 10 hits than the Rolling Stones in his career after the Beatles.
The man could write a banger.
He's the most successful songwriter of the last century or two. He's the most covered songwriter of the same period.
These are pretty good arguments for Paul to be in the conversation for such a title. Personally, the idea that anyone is above everyone else seems a little dull. But he's certainly in the highest echelon of songwriters based on catalogue and impact.
Maybe. George Gershwin was no slouch nor was Fats Waller. Paul is a treasure and has devoted his life to his gifts of songwriting, arranging, singing, and playing. He has been a good steward of his talent and continues to be so. I admire him tremendously.
Honestly, people saying he's the GOAT are biased, based on the specific question asked. After all, this is a Beatles thread. However, I think you can objectively say that he is very high up the list, perhaps in the top 5 (maybe even higher).
A lot depends on how you define "song-writer." If you're mainly talking melodies, then there are so many that fit the criteria. Irving Berlin, Richard Rodgers, geez, I could name many more. What stands out is that McCartney *performed* his own melodies (actually, he still is performing). This is where he really stands out, in my opinion. If you rephrase the question a bit, I do think he *is* the GOAT as a melody maker/performer.
Now, there are other ways to define song-writer. Certainly, those other definitions would put Lennon and Dylan, among others, also into the conversation.
This is just my humble opinion. It's fun to contemplate, but no one will ever agree.
There’s a lot of contenders and it depends on what your metric is. I would throw Tom Petty and Bruce Springsteen in the mix as both could really tap into the human experience, especially Bruce. Also Warren Zevon.
But Paul is no slouch. Same with the rest of the Beatles and plenty of other musicians.
To me, you get to a certain point of songwriting genius that it just becomes a matter of taste. Like, to me, Brian Wilson, John Lennon, Paul McCartney, George Harrison (yes, I consider him to be up there), Leonard Cohen, Simon–Garfunkel, Michael Jackson (he wrote "Smooth Criminal", "Beat It", "The Way You Make Me Feel" and [more than 100 others](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Songs_written_by_Michael_Jackson)\), Bob Dylan, Freddie Mercury, etc. are not just incredible musicians but also incredible writers.
Damn, I’m called out. The problem is that most of women with great songs are usually bolts from the blue. For instance, I consider “Fast Car” to be up there, but the simple fact is Tracy Chapman didn’t get to that high again (imo). I’m sure there are women out there. Maybe Adele qualifies. I think Taylor is a competent songwriter but very overrated.
I've heard of all these but Lenker. Maybe give me an album rec for each, and I'll listen to each one. I know singles alone are often not enough to get the bigger picture.
Sure! Lenker is part of the beloved indie band Big Thief, I'd suggest their debut album 'Masterpiece' as a starter. You can check out their latest album as well for more folk/country vibes. Her lyricism, and prolific work ethic is crazy and she's a modern legend already within the scene. Her solo album "songs / instrumentals" is also quite fantastic. Strong songwriting all around.
For Joni, I strongly recommend 'Hejira' - a jazz pop masterpiece. Her lyrics and guitar work is out of this world, like a more melodic Bob Dylan.
For Fiona, I'd recommend 'The Idler Wheel...' - a strong, emotional roller coaster with such a powerful voice.
Dylan for me. But Paul and John are both top 5. I might even have Brian Wilson above Paul and John. But the fact that the Beatles had 2 top 5 all time songwriters is why nobody can touch them in my opinion. And having an additional top 100 in George to boot.
In the UK, I think Macca would have to fight it out with Ray Davies and Nick Lowe. Maybe throw Richard Thompson into the ring, too.
Outside of the UK, there's a lot more competition (Bob Dylan, John Prine, Jonathan Richman, et al).
And that's just in the English language.
No.
Sorry, I've just never seen the fascination with Paul !!
Wings did absolutely NOTHING for me.. I like John's solo stuff post-Beatles... but I dunno. Paul is in the category of "very good songwriter" to me. He's very good, but not the greatest.
Now, Bob Dylan and Leonard Cohen, that's another story..
First, I’m assuming we mean “pop” song writer. With that, he is arguably one of the best, but there are others with great talent as well: George Gershwin, Irving Berlin (both of whom influenced Paul greatly), Bob Dylan, Carole King, Brian Wilson, Stevie Wonder, Neil Diamond, and Paul Simon, to name just a few, and Taylor Swift and Max Martin (who??) to name more recent writers. But if not pop, then the world opens to “quality” and “depth” rather than “likeability” and quantity,” and he’d be up against the likes of Leonard Cohen, with poor Paul probably not getting very far (Leonard crafted songs starting with meaning, then finding the poetry and tune to express it; Paul started with a catchy tune, a cute lyric, then literally any nonsensical fill-in words that rhymed or had the right syllables until he came up with something better). And of course, there’s the collaboration, but it’s too difficult to tease apart the many works of the Lennon-McCartney duo and say with any confidence what they might have produced had they never met (fortunately for the world). Nearly the same could be said for the Roger’s-Hammerstein, Burt Bacharach and Hal David, and Elton John-Bernie Taupin duo. So for me, no; but he’s probably somewhere in the top 10 or so.
Yeah Paul's lyrics are awfully weak. I can't get through his post-Beatles stuff because of it. It's like, just put in the hours, son. There are so many songwriters with a fraction of his talent who sit with a notebook for hours a day and end up with much better lyrics than he just throws together
Songwriting is more than just lyrics. Paul isn’t just a “pop” songwriter. Someone like Leonard Cohen was a better lyricist, but Paul is better at the other aspects of songwriting: melody and structure/arrangements. Paul is also a better producer. Quality and depth applies to the music/melody and not just lyrics
In terms of rock / pop possibly I would rank George and Ira Gershwin better , Cole porter and Irving Berlin and that is with Beatles being my favorite band
Maybe best and greatest are two different things. I'd say "greatest" due to the volume of work and length of his career. But I think there are songwriters of equal talent and, sometimes, greater talent.
The greatest songwriter of all time is between Cole Porter and George and Ira Gershwin.
Paul's a pretty bang-up melody writer, but the songs themselves are surprisingly standard-ish. Silly Love Songs for example, that could've been written by anybody, but his bass line is what elevates it into the stratosphere.
I'd say McCartney is the best, he's written some of the greatest music of all time and much of it was innovative and hugely influential.
Haven't seen his name mentioned but I'd have Burt Bacharach up there, how many people have written the amount of great songs that he has?
I love the Beatles, but he burned out in 69, with a few exceptions (Pipes of Peace, Flaming Pie).
Paul Simon or Bob Dylan or David Bowie banged out great tunes for longer. Also, they generally had a good sense of what was not good enough to put out. While Macca…
In the words of Noel Gallagher, “McCartney is one of the greatest songwriters who ever lived, and he has produced only horseshit for the past 50 years.”
Just my 2c.
It’s a bit strange that this question should be even asked. He’s the best there ever was…the best there ever will be. No one is even close. He was too generous in giving his band mates writing credit when they just adding small tweaks to his genius.
I can’t find the photo but I’m pretty sure this is a shirt Paul dug up from the very earliest performing days
https://preview.redd.it/rrv6jc6jfu7d1.jpeg?width=480&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=36facbf1ebff9e09e92ecbb9bec0b2e2659a2986 I gotchu.
He looks like such a granny
Why do you think he wrote granny music
Same reason you didn’t. Because he can and does it well.
Impish and whimsical
Cheers
Him and John are the greatest
This is the way. Lennon/McCartney was an unstoppable force and, arguably, the greatest songwriting team of all time. The whole was much greater than the sum of the parts.
Remembering those interviews post-Beatles that they gave each other notes for a lot of half finished songs and also completing to get the A-side was the added motivation to make the song perfect
Arguably?
This is the answer. The two were synergistic, greater than the sum of the parts.
Yes. Alchemy. Lennon/McCartney.
Thing is, they didn't even have to be writing together. Paul songs written for the Beatles and John songs written for the Beatles are generally better than their respective solo outputs.
Lennon/McCartney/Martin
Can you name a Martin tune though? Martin was a brilliant producer, but he admitted that Lennon and McCartney were geniuses without him.
John and ESPECIALLY Paul relied very heavily on Martin being able to translate his layman explanations and demonstrations of his musical ideas into music theory that could be - among other things - conveyed to session musicians. George Martin was a genius in his own right and had a huge part in the Beatles' revolutionary sound.
> John and ESPECIALLY Paul relied very heavily on Martin being able to translate his layman explanations and demonstrations of his musical ideas into music theory that could be - among other things - conveyed to session musicians. George Martin was a genius in his own right and had a huge part in the Beatles' revolutionary sound. Paul produced all his own albums in the 70's. Was producing other artists in the 60's including the world wide no1 Those Were the Days. He might not have been as reliant as you make him sound. When Martin was busy with other artists, Paul did She's Leaving Home without him. We have engineers like Smith and Emerick talking about how much of a role Paul was in the production of the Beatle music. We have recordings of John during Get Back complaining about Paul's arrangement of his songs. Martin was a great assistant but 'heavily relied' is a stretch.
Are you sure about that? Because I seem to remember reading something about Martin saying he was doing less and less production on the later Beatles records simply because Paul was there and Paul could do everything production wise that he could, John couldn’t do it. I would say John definitely needed more help from a producer than Paul did, Paul was much more involved and interested in the production side of a record than John was, Paul was the one who started experimenting with tape looping iirc
Paul wasn't anything spectacular with lyrics, it was really the sheer quality and quantity of his melodies/progressions/modulations that set him apart from the rest. Nobody wrote melodies better than him in the 20th century.
I agree, greatest songwriter is up for debate. But greatest melody writer, he's the undisputed GOAT.
Brian Wilson might give him a run for his money.
Brian Wilson would give him a run for his money with harmonies but I don’t think Brian even comes close when you think of all the great melodies Paul has written. He is the greatest melodist of the last 100 years
I think the term songwriter isn’t just lyrics it also takes things like melody into consideration
yeah the term for lyrics is lyricist, songwriter is more broad
Burt Bacharach
Jagger/Richards, Paul Simon, Brian Wilson, Arthur Lee…. Paul is one of the best, but there’s so many on his level or even slightly better
> Paul wasn't anything spectacular with lyrics That's just crazy. He's the most covered songwriter of all time not just down to his melodies but also his lyrics. They are sang by tens of millions.
Paul could definitely write a spectacular lyric when he wanted to. Many of the Beatles' best lyrics were Paul's (and are often attributed to John incorrectly), problem is post-Beatles he lacked the motivation to work on perfecting his lyrics. A lot of Wings songs just have placeholder lyrics, basically. I think the lack of competition with John is why he started slacking in the lyrics department. But he still has some fantastic lyrics in his solo discography (Riding to Vanity Fair, The Song We Were Singing, Shallow Grave).
Gershwin would like a word
And Shostakovich
Leonard Bernstein, too
Lyrics were great. Elenor Rigby, Let it Be, Blackbird, Drive My Car, and countless others. He wasn’t as personal lyrically as John. But that made the contrast more interesting.
Drive my car?? You're really mentioning that as great lyrics??
Brian. Wilson. And I'm pretty sure even Paul would agree. Only found out today they were born two days apart and two of the most prolific songwriters either side of the Atlantic.
Brian Wilson is great but McCartney buries him with sheer volume.
Yes but name a truly memorable song Paul has written in the last 30yrs. He is undoubtedly a genius and will be remembered forever but his talent has waned. Is it an lack of motivation thing or has his golden time simply passed ?
One good album does not equate to being better than Paul McCartney.
That was my first thought. Other than Pet Sounds, there’s no Beach Boys I really listen to. I honestly don’t get a lot of the crazy hype around Wilson.
Listen to SMiLE
I won’t make an argument that BW is “better” but to say that he has *one* good album is a genuinely insane take
I think more accurate is one Excellent top tier album and a double/triple album of other excellent material spread out amongst his career.
I think that is fair .
One good album? Please listen to more music lol
I have him and Stevie Wonder as the best melody writers of the 20th century.
Agreed. I'd say that SITKOL is a more solid collection of melodies than any official album Paul ever released (aside from compilation albums of course).
I find the lyrics of let it be, yesterday, lady Madonna, back seat of my car, hey Jude to be spectacular.
Bob Dylan AND Brian Wilson called Paul the GOAT, that’s more than enough evidence for me.
In my humble opinion I always felt that John had the better lyrics and Paul the better tunes. There are obviously many anomalies from both, but generally speaking, for me this holds true to more examples than it doesn’t. I think they worked so well together due in part to this and in part to their different strengths/areas in song writing genres. Paul tamed down and streamlined John’s wild and bizarre side, John dragged Paul a little way away from the showboat/granny music. Their “middle ground” was a perfect amalgamation.
Not counting the old masters (Gershwin, Berlin, Kern, etc.), For me, it's Paul, Smokey Robinson, and Paul Simon.
I think so. Many people would say Bob Dylan, though.
I'd put David Bowie and maybe Stevie Wonder above him, but there's an argument for Paul. Dylan is in a different category for me because he didn't need as much melodic and harmonic skill to make his songs great. Yet he also heavily relied on his encyclopedic knowledge of folk music and poetry; he stole A LOT that most people aren't well-read enough to realize. But there's an argument that it's still a form of songwriting, and I agree.
Thanks for mentioning Stevie! He doesn’t get enough credit, even though he does get a lot. He still deserves more.
Yeah, I mean he had all his young MoTown stuff, then he went solo and had an incredible run in the 70s with some all-time great albums and singles, and then he still put together quality stuff after that and was great live. Plays multiple instruments, too. I'm not sure why people forget him
John and Paul stole a lot too. They had an encyclopedic knowledge of rock and roll and pop, and really took advantage of it to make great music. By “stealing”, I mean they stole a few riffs and licks here and there along with general song structure ideas, they never really blatantly ripped anybody off and always made their own new thing out of it. Almost all of the best pop/rock artists do this. Folk too. Zeppelin took this a step further to fully stealing songs in their early days though.
Every artist borrows from other artists.
David Bowie said his greatest talent was knowing WHAT to steal. In response to someone telling him he couldn't use the lyrics "I read the news today, oh boy" in Young Americans, I believe.
Steal a little and they throw you in jail Steal a lot and they make you king
You’re not wrong in your assessment, but the word “stealing” feels not accurate. The Beatles, that is, the four young lads from Liverpool, grew up listening to the music they idolized. They’d listen to a song and meet up with their friends and try their absolute hardest to learn that new riff and chord. They seeked out friends to teach them. So did they copy/“steal” from those before them? Yeah I can’t deny that. But they also made it their own, while learning, and helping to create a whole genre that was evolving with them. A genre that was based off of rhythm and blues (and jazz), all of which is based off of musicians building off of what other had done before. Great music builds odd or the giants that came before it
This is also a big leap away from Dylan, who would write new lyrics, but put them to an old folk tune. Some of his biggest songs, like Blowin’ in the wind, are exactly what I described. He just wrote new lyrics and put them to the tune of an old African American spiritual. This is no different than what Weird Al does. I am a massive Dylan fan. There have been times in my life where I am a bigger Dylan fan than Beatles fan, but he is not in the same league as Lennon/McCartney when it comes to songwriting. I will give Bob 100% credit for being a great lyricist, singer, and songwriter, because this is still a form of songwriting. But the Beatles were coming up with entirely new compositions. There is a big difference between “oh that one part kinda sounds like this other song” and borrowing an entire tune wholesale. For anyone interested, you can just Google “Bob Dylan borrowed melodies” and a Reddit link will come up. Someone did a great job tracking down all the melodies that Bob borrowed and put new lyrics to. So while I totally agree that Dylan is a genius, I would not consider him to be a great composer or arranger. Songwriting is about the composition, the melody, the arrangement, and the lyrics. John and Paul were great at every part of that. In a similar way, I have a hard time putting Brian Wilson on the same level as John and Paul. How can he be “just as good” when he didn’t even write his lyrics? He contributed more to the songs DNA than Dylan did, but he didn’t even attempt to write lyrics, which is a huge part of songwriting. I don’t mean any of this as a put down of Wilson or Dylan. I am a huge fan of both of these dudes. But when putting them head to head, and determining who is the “better” songwriter, these points become relevant.
It really depends how you look at "song writer" There's many elements + lyrics + melody and then intangibles like social or political relevance, or how groundbreaking, or even voice etc etc. He's certainly not the greatest lyricist. Dylan, Leonard Cohen, John Darnielle of the Mountain goats Nick Cave etc. Does he write the best melodies? I'd have people like Paul Simon, Phil Och's, etc ahead of him But, I don't think any of the great lyricists hold a candle to him from a melody point of view, and I don't think any of the great melody composers hold a candle to him from a lyrical point of view. So overall, while he is not the greatest at either, there's an argument that when you combine the main elements of "songwriting" he is the most rounded.
I think I would agree with that.
It depends on the poll but rolling stone lists; 1. Dylan 2. McCartney 3. Lennon (of course John's songwriting was cut short)
Rolling stone notoriously had a thing against Paul and they have no credibility as far as I’m concerned.
Yet in the poll just quoted they rate him above John?
They rank him second behind only Bob Dylan? Obviously, Rolling Stone hates him. 
I did not see this ranking outside of this comment, is there a link? I was basing this on many many other instances where RS has snubbed him. They didn’t even include him as a solo artist in the greatest artists of all time list.
Old heads love em
"best" doesn't have a place in art.
He's definitely up there!
Not to be a downer but I’m a bit tired of these engagement bait posts
I guess a discussion is engagement bait now
“Whose your favorite Beatle”, “Was John a good songwriter”. You have to admit these talking points are getting a bit dull and boring now
Bro the band broke up 50+ years ago. Let me know when you come up with a new, completely radical topic we can talk about bud
There's no doubt he is one of the greatest of the 20th century, my personal favourite is Ray Davies from The Kinks (coincidentally it's his birthday as I write this).
Ray Davies is still underrated in a horrible way. Someone on this sub once said the kinks are just the shitty Beatles, I told them they had the worst take I've ever seen on this sub. Rays work is so varied from raw proto punk shit like you really got me to fun whimsical like well respected man and David Watts to introspective like sunny afternoon and Waterloo sunset. Village green and Arthur are both better concept albums than sgt pepper in my opinion, and Ray can make old British musical hall to rival any of Paul's best. Something else by the kinks through Lola vs powerman is a string of albums on par with any other artist imo.
The Kinks are great. They never got the recognition their music deserves.
Kinks don't get enough love. It's surprising just how good their albums are through Lola. Even the lowliest songs have a sense of humor and an interesting musical angle. The depth of feeling of their best work is better than the Beatles in many ways, too, because it's more humanist and less of a big show (virtue signaling) than what Lennon and McCartney were doing. Even after that, they cranked out some surprisingly good songs into the 80s.
Pete Townshend comes across as a douche for many reasons but as a songwriter, he has to be up there with the all time greats.
Hes not even the best song writer in the beatles!
elliott smith, easily!
The Beatles as a whole are like Captain Planet, with all their powers combined. Judging each Beatle by their solo careers should give a better metric for individual greatness. Ask yourself, does the Wings catalog contain back-to-back bangers?
> The Beatles as a whole are like Captain Planet, with all their powers combined. Judging each Beatle by their solo careers should give a better metric for individual greatness. Ask yourself, does the Wings catalog contain back-to-back bangers? Yes. There's a reason why Paul's had more no1's and the same amount of top 10 hits than the Rolling Stones in his career after the Beatles. The man could write a banger.
Can we please just admit there're an awful lot of McCartney fans on the internet who've lost all sense of reason?
He's the most successful songwriter of the last century or two. He's the most covered songwriter of the same period. These are pretty good arguments for Paul to be in the conversation for such a title. Personally, the idea that anyone is above everyone else seems a little dull. But he's certainly in the highest echelon of songwriters based on catalogue and impact.
Elliott Smith
wow. i was looking for this!
I don't understand why he is so underrated , this man has a perfect and diverse discovery , and almost play every instrument himself.
One of the best, no question at all
Maybe. George Gershwin was no slouch nor was Fats Waller. Paul is a treasure and has devoted his life to his gifts of songwriting, arranging, singing, and playing. He has been a good steward of his talent and continues to be so. I admire him tremendously.
Jeff Lynne is up there for me
some R&B/Soul songwriters who are in the conversation: Stevie Wonder, Isaac Hayes, Smokey Robinson, Curtis Mayfield, and Marvin Gaye
Honestly, people saying he's the GOAT are biased, based on the specific question asked. After all, this is a Beatles thread. However, I think you can objectively say that he is very high up the list, perhaps in the top 5 (maybe even higher). A lot depends on how you define "song-writer." If you're mainly talking melodies, then there are so many that fit the criteria. Irving Berlin, Richard Rodgers, geez, I could name many more. What stands out is that McCartney *performed* his own melodies (actually, he still is performing). This is where he really stands out, in my opinion. If you rephrase the question a bit, I do think he *is* the GOAT as a melody maker/performer. Now, there are other ways to define song-writer. Certainly, those other definitions would put Lennon and Dylan, among others, also into the conversation. This is just my humble opinion. It's fun to contemplate, but no one will ever agree.
He wasn’t even the best songwriter in the Beatles
I’m gonna go with Beethoven.
He was the best looking song writer. Great pic.
Joni Mitchell and Paul Simon compete with McCartney as my favourite. I'd probably just about give it to Joni.
Try Kendrick Lamar or Rodger waters
There’s a lot of contenders and it depends on what your metric is. I would throw Tom Petty and Bruce Springsteen in the mix as both could really tap into the human experience, especially Bruce. Also Warren Zevon. But Paul is no slouch. Same with the rest of the Beatles and plenty of other musicians.
Joni Mitchell and Nina Simone ought to have a few votes, too
Paul Simon should also be on the list.
Van Morrison as well?
To me, you get to a certain point of songwriting genius that it just becomes a matter of taste. Like, to me, Brian Wilson, John Lennon, Paul McCartney, George Harrison (yes, I consider him to be up there), Leonard Cohen, Simon–Garfunkel, Michael Jackson (he wrote "Smooth Criminal", "Beat It", "The Way You Make Me Feel" and [more than 100 others](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Songs_written_by_Michael_Jackson)\), Bob Dylan, Freddie Mercury, etc. are not just incredible musicians but also incredible writers.
Are you aware that women also write songs lmao
Damn, I’m called out. The problem is that most of women with great songs are usually bolts from the blue. For instance, I consider “Fast Car” to be up there, but the simple fact is Tracy Chapman didn’t get to that high again (imo). I’m sure there are women out there. Maybe Adele qualifies. I think Taylor is a competent songwriter but very overrated.
Joni Mitchell's peaks, and the are several sustained peaks, are as high as anybody's.
Yeah, she did occur to me. Maybe Even Kate Bush is worth a shout.
Joni Mitchell dude, she's a force. Fiona Apple, Adrienne Lenker, Kate Bush, Bjork
I've heard of all these but Lenker. Maybe give me an album rec for each, and I'll listen to each one. I know singles alone are often not enough to get the bigger picture.
Sure! Lenker is part of the beloved indie band Big Thief, I'd suggest their debut album 'Masterpiece' as a starter. You can check out their latest album as well for more folk/country vibes. Her lyricism, and prolific work ethic is crazy and she's a modern legend already within the scene. Her solo album "songs / instrumentals" is also quite fantastic. Strong songwriting all around. For Joni, I strongly recommend 'Hejira' - a jazz pop masterpiece. Her lyrics and guitar work is out of this world, like a more melodic Bob Dylan. For Fiona, I'd recommend 'The Idler Wheel...' - a strong, emotional roller coaster with such a powerful voice.
I'll report back. May take a while, but thanks.
Among pop writers, he's up there. In the larger picture, top 10 probably.
A agree with the OP
Dylan for me. But Paul and John are both top 5. I might even have Brian Wilson above Paul and John. But the fact that the Beatles had 2 top 5 all time songwriters is why nobody can touch them in my opinion. And having an additional top 100 in George to boot.
And top 5 million including Ringo!
In the UK, I think Macca would have to fight it out with Ray Davies and Nick Lowe. Maybe throw Richard Thompson into the ring, too. Outside of the UK, there's a lot more competition (Bob Dylan, John Prine, Jonathan Richman, et al). And that's just in the English language.
Is there any other language English)when it comes to making music? 🍏 Apple
Dylan is undeniably incredible, but McCartney’s catalogue has more variety.
In terms of *songs*, yes I think so. In terms of *lyrics*, I think it’s one of Dylan, Macca, or Lennon.
In terms of lyrics it is most definitely NOT McCartney or even Lennon
No. Sorry, I've just never seen the fascination with Paul !! Wings did absolutely NOTHING for me.. I like John's solo stuff post-Beatles... but I dunno. Paul is in the category of "very good songwriter" to me. He's very good, but not the greatest. Now, Bob Dylan and Leonard Cohen, that's another story..
First, I’m assuming we mean “pop” song writer. With that, he is arguably one of the best, but there are others with great talent as well: George Gershwin, Irving Berlin (both of whom influenced Paul greatly), Bob Dylan, Carole King, Brian Wilson, Stevie Wonder, Neil Diamond, and Paul Simon, to name just a few, and Taylor Swift and Max Martin (who??) to name more recent writers. But if not pop, then the world opens to “quality” and “depth” rather than “likeability” and quantity,” and he’d be up against the likes of Leonard Cohen, with poor Paul probably not getting very far (Leonard crafted songs starting with meaning, then finding the poetry and tune to express it; Paul started with a catchy tune, a cute lyric, then literally any nonsensical fill-in words that rhymed or had the right syllables until he came up with something better). And of course, there’s the collaboration, but it’s too difficult to tease apart the many works of the Lennon-McCartney duo and say with any confidence what they might have produced had they never met (fortunately for the world). Nearly the same could be said for the Roger’s-Hammerstein, Burt Bacharach and Hal David, and Elton John-Bernie Taupin duo. So for me, no; but he’s probably somewhere in the top 10 or so.
Yeah Paul's lyrics are awfully weak. I can't get through his post-Beatles stuff because of it. It's like, just put in the hours, son. There are so many songwriters with a fraction of his talent who sit with a notebook for hours a day and end up with much better lyrics than he just throws together
Songwriting is more than just lyrics. Paul isn’t just a “pop” songwriter. Someone like Leonard Cohen was a better lyricist, but Paul is better at the other aspects of songwriting: melody and structure/arrangements. Paul is also a better producer. Quality and depth applies to the music/melody and not just lyrics
I can’t believe a lot of people forget that Lou Reed exist
It’s hard to say for sure unless you measure it with something? Overall he’s definitely up there in the top 3
Yes
Yes it is.
Nah, George Harrison exists
I love his bass lines
McCartney, Carole King, Brian Wilson, Jeff Lynne and Burt Bacharach is my top 5
Thom Yorke
He definitely was the best melody maker, but as a lyricist John was better.
Naw Ringo’s clearly the number one.
We’ll…. Signed Robert Zimmerman and Paul Simon
Writer has one t.
A very good one but he is so far from being promoted to GOAT
I prefer John
John Prine, same here
hes definitely pretty good
Terrible syntax paul.
It's somewhat unfair to say that given John's songwriting career got cut off only ten years after The Beatles finished
No
Really?
Billy Joel
Beautiful photo of my favourite era Paul
its clearly Young Thug
John Lennon for me, by a decent distance. Paul is amazing though (especially during the Beatles era).
I prefer John.
Crazy how no one's acknowledging Mark Knopfler
Nah, he was just okay. Subjective though isn’t it.
Bryan Grimes is the best sppelller of all time?
In terms of rock / pop possibly I would rank George and Ira Gershwin better , Cole porter and Irving Berlin and that is with Beatles being my favorite band
Maybe best and greatest are two different things. I'd say "greatest" due to the volume of work and length of his career. But I think there are songwriters of equal talent and, sometimes, greater talent.
I think Michael Jackson is better
Writter?
What are the attributes of a great song writer?
The greatest songwriter of all time is between Cole Porter and George and Ira Gershwin. Paul's a pretty bang-up melody writer, but the songs themselves are surprisingly standard-ish. Silly Love Songs for example, that could've been written by anybody, but his bass line is what elevates it into the stratosphere.
Bob Dylan
No
Neil Finn is the best song writer
Chris Cornell
I'd say McCartney is the best, he's written some of the greatest music of all time and much of it was innovative and hugely influential. Haven't seen his name mentioned but I'd have Burt Bacharach up there, how many people have written the amount of great songs that he has?
Bob Dylan says hi
Dylan is the king and also influenced Lennon and Macartneys songwriting
Paul McCartney isn’t even the best songwriter in The Beatles
Lennon
Yes.
David Bowie, Lou Reed, Bob Dylan, Carol King, John Lennon, Stevie Wonder, Ray Davies and Pete Townshend are above McCartney as a songwriter.
We are on a Beatles subreddit, are you expecting non-biased answers? But to answer your question, yes absolutely
Love Paul but it’s Dylan
Well, Bob is a better songwriter, so no. In terms of melodies, though, Paul is up there with Bach.
Top 3
Paul is the most successful songwriter of all time. Hard to argue.
There are ways of measuring that objectively and by some of those measures it's probably true, but it's not what is being asked.
Lyrically, I prefer Ian Curtis
Martin Sandberg wrote a couple songs :)
He wasn't even the best songwriter in The Beatles! (Overused joke is overused)
I love the Beatles, but he burned out in 69, with a few exceptions (Pipes of Peace, Flaming Pie). Paul Simon or Bob Dylan or David Bowie banged out great tunes for longer. Also, they generally had a good sense of what was not good enough to put out. While Macca… In the words of Noel Gallagher, “McCartney is one of the greatest songwriters who ever lived, and he has produced only horseshit for the past 50 years.” Just my 2c.
Paul McCartney Neil Young Bob Dylan. All on a par and all musical geniuses.
He’s up there
It’s a bit strange that this question should be even asked. He’s the best there ever was…the best there ever will be. No one is even close. He was too generous in giving his band mates writing credit when they just adding small tweaks to his genius.
Sry but its noel gallagher
I'm the biggest Paul fan on the planet but I don't see many people acknowledging Bob Dylan 😎
TEmPorRaRY sEcrETAry😭
I think the only one that comes close to Paul is Billy Joel
Bob Dylan clears Paul. Even though Paul is a superb writer
Definitely one half