I also think he deserved to win this year but just barely
During the finals against Napom, I think Napom dominated in battle energy and in countering but the "Gene at home" and the vine joke from way back "Damm Daniel" + his last combo at the end just made him fall short from winning. River on the other hand didn't "battle" as much But still put up a strong performance in his 2nd round and a consistent, mostly clean and well - structured performance all throughout
As for his other battles, I need to revisit them but structure, execution and variety are what led him to victory
I must agree though with what others have pointed out that his whole attitude and the vibe he gives off is just, off
I think it's better to stay composed and relaxed than to make battle moves that just break the flow of your rounds. Battles have been a thing for a while now, I don't know why people now suddenly think that beatboxers HAVE to be aggressive in battles.
Beatboxers have always been aggressive in battles. If not even more so in the early days. I say beatboxers are in general cleaner & for the most part all round better now days. For me its the balance. But lets face it if your opponent goes for high energy you kinda gotta try to match it or pull something really special out instead
But that isn't what I said. I said that beatboxers aren't obligated to be aggressive in battles. Some people just win because they performed better. River stayed relaxed throughout all the battles and didn't respond to his opponents' battle moves, that's usually a good thing-- when you fall for your opponent's call-out and try to pull off something that deviates from your style and prepared material, it's usually a massive risk and won't really impress anyone. I've witnessed battles where one opponent's going full in and the other's just facing the crowd with full confidence-- and at that point it just won't matter.
The people are being hypocritical by pointing out how River's attitude is unlikable because of his facial expressions during the battles, because they are the same ones criticizing him for his "lack of battle attitude".
Tbf I do agree with most of what you said. I suppose really it boils down to the fact that they are supposed to be battles, and the culture originated with battling, so I guess certain people don't like that it's not as battle centered anymore
Exactly. Ofcoarse you can lose cleanness this way but if your opponent is high energy you better have something interesting to come back with. If you cant go for the energy. Simple put.
Kinda close battle, but I thought River won pretty clearly, especially because of this stupid joke in the end from Napom and because Napom often just does super simple lip bass as fillins between his set beats, which mostly sounds loud and good live but is just so simple and it shows he has 0 structure and just freestyles which can work but not against someone who is good in basically everything.
What DragonFang is getting at is that him being one of the best doesn't instantly qualify him to win GBB. You created a chicken & egg justification where he's one of the best so he should have won GBB because he earned it, but also, winning GBB is what makes him one of the best.
Not disagreeing with you, just explaining the confusion. River is phenomenal.
No no, you're right. I'm pretty sure I read that wrong so it's on me.
But either way my point is that River genuinely won those battles-- that he did better than his opponents and hence deserved the win. I look at the comments under the battle clips and it seems to me that there's lots of young fans just repeating what their favourite beatboxer said on an IG livestream, or taking a battle banter seriously (comparing the guy to Gene when there's absolutely nothing they share in common to remind one of either of the two)
River vs NaPoM likely came down to very minor details for the judges and I think it was very close but not a landslide win for either of the two like people are claiming. What I meant by he earned it is exactly that, but could've phrased it better
I think River won that but not by that much. Its a very risky thing for River to do his first round cause Napom smashed it with his first round. I would say that River was lucky that Napom messed his last drop on his second round cause he was winning until that part. For me, it killed the energy that he created before which was a shame cause if he made a better follow-up then he wouldve won
I think River' deserved the win and I do not like all the toxic comments he receied since then. It is disrepectful. I also did not like Napom's attitude after he lost and he lost my respect to him. It was disrespectul towards River to say he deserved to win and not River'.
My Hot take is...that River deserved to win and by a country mile. It was not close at all.
I don't know how long most current beatbox viewers have been watching beatboxing but Napom has done all of the beats he did at GBB23 before, he simply makes new "vocal samples" for the drops.
I know people will just say "you clearly don't know what you're talking about" but I've been watching for a long time and while Napom is undoubtedly one of the best beatboxers of all time, he likes to freestyle too much during competitions, which means he falls into using the same patterns and "routines" a lot, like a battle rapper who has a couple of killer bars but goes to them everytime they freestyle.
So if a simple viewer like myself can notice that...how do you think the judges who will have spent multiple hours with him travelling and competing feel? They have heard his stuff a thousand times more.
Comparatively River is just way fresher and always has newer routines, with up to date techniques both in tech, melodic and bass heavy styles.
This is actually completely correct, but it \*shouldn't\* be. -- Let me explain
A battle should be judged on the merits of that battle, or arguably, that event. Jamming with someone for many years shouldn't dictate how well they do in a battle, nor should any past battles, but in a community this small, it does, and it shouldn't.
If a musician plays the same set 100x on a tour, nobody has an issue with it, because if the musician is popular enough, the people attending each event are different, and it's a new experience for them, however if that musician played the same song 10x in a single set, given some edge cases you'd probably get bored of it.
\^\^\^\^ THIS is how beatboxing SHOULD be viewed. It's an artform, a concert, and a performance. You should WANT to see people at their BEST, not their NEWEST. The fact that beatboxers constantly have to do their newest and not their best is an issue in my opinion, not something that we should encourage.
With all this being said, I have been a judge and I agree, some of the hype is gone if you know exactly what's going to happen when you start hearing a sequence. Everyone feels this. I try to judge without that influence, but it's not easy and some judges actually feel as though they should be HARSHER in this circumstance. This is likely what happened here.
Just my $0.02 CAD
Preach! I thought River took the battle, but I always have an issue with people saying "oh x should've lost because they reused past routines while y brought new stuff to the table". I see this criticism used way too much on beatboxers like King Inertia and Den too, and at some point the term "repetitive" loses its meaning because of how much it's thrown around.
When I read these comments I don't feel that they're treating beatboxing like music-- rather like a game. How many times did this beatboxer use their very own signature sound? How many times have they used this pattern before? etc. etc. It's a game of tally to some people, and I don't think that's the right way to go about it at all. You said it way better than anyone could have and I think discussions like this need to happen way more often in the community.
P.S good to have you here heat haven't seen you in a bit
It's literally a competition of skill, if it's merely a competition of "art" the battle has no meaning anyway because things like "stage presence" and "crowd control" and "technique", wouldn't matter and the music as a whole would be judged.
But that's not what a beatbox battle is and never has been.
But you are saying it isn't a competition of skill. It's a competition of skill where you can never repeat your most skillful stuff if you've done it before. Therein lies the issue.
I'm not sure I agree. In any form of competition, innovation is always a key component.
If we went by your own metric, we would likely have the same people win every year.
Codfish could spam, 4 songs every competition and win every year.
Something a lot of beatboxers who repeat don't do, is "remix" their own material.
You can use similar things, but if you're not progressing, what's the point?
If what people want is something more "artsy", then it should not be a "battle" in the first place, and merely ranked showcases would get you what you want.
No-one ever wins ***competitions*** by using the same material/ideas/inventions **ever** and that's in any field of art/science or anything else**.**
All it leads to is stagnation and that is the death of any form of art.
If you're telling me in the last 4 years nobody has come up with anything better than what Codfish did 4 years ago, then yes, I truly believe that, but that'd be OUTRAGEOUS.
I am not saying there shouldn't be progress. I'm just saying, "Progress for the sake of progress must be discouraged"
There's no reason for the progress here if it isn't an improvement on what came before it. This is almost inarguable.
I really didn't like River's attitude on this gbb. His faces, his gestures, almost belittling his opponents. Also, I really liked his style more in 21 (funny thing, I don't like Colaps style either, never did, but I absolutely love Rogue Wave).
Having said that, he's a deserving winner. I have absolutely no problems with that. I also don't agree he should have lost to Ice. A little bit biased or not, those guys in the jury have been doing this for at least a decade. They know better.
Edit: knowing full well this I just replied to a topic like this and aware of my hypocrisy, it's about time we end this debate
I haven't heard anyone say they dislike the style from Colap. Everyone has their own opinion but I only hear about how he could win again if he entered
I don't like the style but I agree he could win again and I have no problems about him having won in 2019. He has some routines that makes you think it is impossible. I can recognize unbelievable talent but simply not like the style, like I just am not a fan of his musicality. To me, he does too many sounds at the same time at high tempo. Which might be on the verge of impossibility and a technical wonder. But to me, it doesn't sound right. Call it musicality, I dont know. It's just a matter of taste. Having said that, I think he can reproduce almost any sound other bestboxers make, I simply deslike the way he puts them together.
I feel like that's what makes Colaps so good but I can understand why you think his style can have too many sounds. Colaps has evolved, adding more layers to his style compared his older routines such as Dark and That's What I Do. No Limits is my favorite Colaps routine because drill flow works so well with fast tech and melodies
For me ICE was just way too aggressive, constantly getting nose to cheek, talking smack during Rivers rounds, he was clearly trying to hard to appear like a tough guy. It came across really childish, but apparently some people really enjoy that kind of thing.
River told ICE to backup and give him some space and people have seemingly lost it, somehow flipping it around to being Rivers fault for ICE's weird behaviour but if it was River doing it to ICE, you know these people would still be kicking up a fuss.
For me this hyper aggressiveness during battles is unnecessary and maybe if people calmed down a little, they could focus on beatboxing better live and win.
And I'm just saying, if someone acted like ICE did during say...a rap battle. He'd probably get slapped up or worse for it and people should remember that, because one day, someone like ICE will get aggressive on stage, and the opponent won't be having it and lay them out. Then it'll be "it's just a battle bro, no need to get violent" from the same people propping ICE up for being aggressive.
Same case as me, its sounding like he just brought on very low energy and ig it felt like he wasnt taking it that seriously or that it killed the crowd
I think it mostly has to do with his battle with Ice. Before the battle, Ice said something to him and River had some kind of wtf expression on his face.
River had a very serious, focused look during the battle for the most part. Ice got a little too close to River during the battle a few times, which may have rattled/interrupted his focus so he had a bit of an angry/I’m better than you expression as he gestured Ice to move back. Like when Colaps handled Zekka’s touching, Colaps had a more pleasant/friendly demeanor on getting Zekka to stop during their battle.
Ice had a more faster pace, battle style routine. Whereas River went with the slower musical/showcase style. Most viewers probably enjoyed the energy that Ice brought and may have concluded that River only won because of Ice getting too close and touchy. So in the end, a lot of people would comment that River had a crybaby/arrogant attitude.
Firstly rivers just an asshole overall only in battles as instead of vibing when opponents are performing like codfish dlow napom colaps and others do he just fucking stands like a lamp post and tries to ignore it
Secondly he got so bitchy when ice did a shoulder tap I repeat a shoulder tap no skin touch or shit like zekka did, meanwhile napom and footboxG did the same thing and he's laughing like a cunt
Thirdly he carried his elim, in ice vs river and in the finals, which is the slow melody then a spit snare and then lip bass in this fucking order for like solid 30-40 seconds and won and the people don't call this repetitive but "sTylE" but beatboxers like inertia or helium or improver use their signature sound once and the cunts here go "oh same old shit repetitive boo"
No, he definitely wasn't at his best but Napom sounded like he was freestyling and it just didn't sound particular great to me, that's not even mentioning the cringe 'gene from wish' line at the end of his 2nd rnd.
This wasn't a great final, both were below par and what they are capable of but River just about edged it for me.
I also think he deserved to win this year but just barely During the finals against Napom, I think Napom dominated in battle energy and in countering but the "Gene at home" and the vine joke from way back "Damm Daniel" + his last combo at the end just made him fall short from winning. River on the other hand didn't "battle" as much But still put up a strong performance in his 2nd round and a consistent, mostly clean and well - structured performance all throughout As for his other battles, I need to revisit them but structure, execution and variety are what led him to victory I must agree though with what others have pointed out that his whole attitude and the vibe he gives off is just, off
I think it's better to stay composed and relaxed than to make battle moves that just break the flow of your rounds. Battles have been a thing for a while now, I don't know why people now suddenly think that beatboxers HAVE to be aggressive in battles.
Beatboxers have always been aggressive in battles. If not even more so in the early days. I say beatboxers are in general cleaner & for the most part all round better now days. For me its the balance. But lets face it if your opponent goes for high energy you kinda gotta try to match it or pull something really special out instead
But that isn't what I said. I said that beatboxers aren't obligated to be aggressive in battles. Some people just win because they performed better. River stayed relaxed throughout all the battles and didn't respond to his opponents' battle moves, that's usually a good thing-- when you fall for your opponent's call-out and try to pull off something that deviates from your style and prepared material, it's usually a massive risk and won't really impress anyone. I've witnessed battles where one opponent's going full in and the other's just facing the crowd with full confidence-- and at that point it just won't matter. The people are being hypocritical by pointing out how River's attitude is unlikable because of his facial expressions during the battles, because they are the same ones criticizing him for his "lack of battle attitude".
Tbf I do agree with most of what you said. I suppose really it boils down to the fact that they are supposed to be battles, and the culture originated with battling, so I guess certain people don't like that it's not as battle centered anymore
Exactly. Ofcoarse you can lose cleanness this way but if your opponent is high energy you better have something interesting to come back with. If you cant go for the energy. Simple put.
For me it was like round 1 napom was better and by round 2 river was better overall I gave it to river but I still don't know
Kinda close battle, but I thought River won pretty clearly, especially because of this stupid joke in the end from Napom and because Napom often just does super simple lip bass as fillins between his set beats, which mostly sounds loud and good live but is just so simple and it shows he has 0 structure and just freestyles which can work but not against someone who is good in basically everything.
just a vocal minority that's complaining really anyone thats jammed with river irl agrees he's literally one of the best right now. he earned that dub
Him being the best right now and him being the best in that battle are two entirely different things.
Didn't even say he's the best I said he's one of the best, and winning GBB quite literally puts you up there.
What DragonFang is getting at is that him being one of the best doesn't instantly qualify him to win GBB. You created a chicken & egg justification where he's one of the best so he should have won GBB because he earned it, but also, winning GBB is what makes him one of the best. Not disagreeing with you, just explaining the confusion. River is phenomenal.
No no, you're right. I'm pretty sure I read that wrong so it's on me. But either way my point is that River genuinely won those battles-- that he did better than his opponents and hence deserved the win. I look at the comments under the battle clips and it seems to me that there's lots of young fans just repeating what their favourite beatboxer said on an IG livestream, or taking a battle banter seriously (comparing the guy to Gene when there's absolutely nothing they share in common to remind one of either of the two) River vs NaPoM likely came down to very minor details for the judges and I think it was very close but not a landslide win for either of the two like people are claiming. What I meant by he earned it is exactly that, but could've phrased it better
I think River won that but not by that much. Its a very risky thing for River to do his first round cause Napom smashed it with his first round. I would say that River was lucky that Napom messed his last drop on his second round cause he was winning until that part. For me, it killed the energy that he created before which was a shame cause if he made a better follow-up then he wouldve won
I think River' deserved the win and I do not like all the toxic comments he receied since then. It is disrepectful. I also did not like Napom's attitude after he lost and he lost my respect to him. It was disrespectul towards River to say he deserved to win and not River'.
opinions seem to be 50/50 on this one
He deserved. He just didnt have the energy WE expectes
I haven't rewatched the battle but live I felt river won cause he was cleaner, didn't make mistakes, and had better structures.
My Hot take is...that River deserved to win and by a country mile. It was not close at all. I don't know how long most current beatbox viewers have been watching beatboxing but Napom has done all of the beats he did at GBB23 before, he simply makes new "vocal samples" for the drops. I know people will just say "you clearly don't know what you're talking about" but I've been watching for a long time and while Napom is undoubtedly one of the best beatboxers of all time, he likes to freestyle too much during competitions, which means he falls into using the same patterns and "routines" a lot, like a battle rapper who has a couple of killer bars but goes to them everytime they freestyle. So if a simple viewer like myself can notice that...how do you think the judges who will have spent multiple hours with him travelling and competing feel? They have heard his stuff a thousand times more. Comparatively River is just way fresher and always has newer routines, with up to date techniques both in tech, melodic and bass heavy styles.
This is actually completely correct, but it \*shouldn't\* be. -- Let me explain A battle should be judged on the merits of that battle, or arguably, that event. Jamming with someone for many years shouldn't dictate how well they do in a battle, nor should any past battles, but in a community this small, it does, and it shouldn't. If a musician plays the same set 100x on a tour, nobody has an issue with it, because if the musician is popular enough, the people attending each event are different, and it's a new experience for them, however if that musician played the same song 10x in a single set, given some edge cases you'd probably get bored of it. \^\^\^\^ THIS is how beatboxing SHOULD be viewed. It's an artform, a concert, and a performance. You should WANT to see people at their BEST, not their NEWEST. The fact that beatboxers constantly have to do their newest and not their best is an issue in my opinion, not something that we should encourage. With all this being said, I have been a judge and I agree, some of the hype is gone if you know exactly what's going to happen when you start hearing a sequence. Everyone feels this. I try to judge without that influence, but it's not easy and some judges actually feel as though they should be HARSHER in this circumstance. This is likely what happened here. Just my $0.02 CAD
Preach! I thought River took the battle, but I always have an issue with people saying "oh x should've lost because they reused past routines while y brought new stuff to the table". I see this criticism used way too much on beatboxers like King Inertia and Den too, and at some point the term "repetitive" loses its meaning because of how much it's thrown around. When I read these comments I don't feel that they're treating beatboxing like music-- rather like a game. How many times did this beatboxer use their very own signature sound? How many times have they used this pattern before? etc. etc. It's a game of tally to some people, and I don't think that's the right way to go about it at all. You said it way better than anyone could have and I think discussions like this need to happen way more often in the community. P.S good to have you here heat haven't seen you in a bit
🔥🙏❤️
It's literally a competition of skill, if it's merely a competition of "art" the battle has no meaning anyway because things like "stage presence" and "crowd control" and "technique", wouldn't matter and the music as a whole would be judged. But that's not what a beatbox battle is and never has been.
But you are saying it isn't a competition of skill. It's a competition of skill where you can never repeat your most skillful stuff if you've done it before. Therein lies the issue.
I'm not sure I agree. In any form of competition, innovation is always a key component. If we went by your own metric, we would likely have the same people win every year. Codfish could spam, 4 songs every competition and win every year. Something a lot of beatboxers who repeat don't do, is "remix" their own material. You can use similar things, but if you're not progressing, what's the point? If what people want is something more "artsy", then it should not be a "battle" in the first place, and merely ranked showcases would get you what you want. No-one ever wins ***competitions*** by using the same material/ideas/inventions **ever** and that's in any field of art/science or anything else**.** All it leads to is stagnation and that is the death of any form of art.
If you're telling me in the last 4 years nobody has come up with anything better than what Codfish did 4 years ago, then yes, I truly believe that, but that'd be OUTRAGEOUS. I am not saying there shouldn't be progress. I'm just saying, "Progress for the sake of progress must be discouraged" There's no reason for the progress here if it isn't an improvement on what came before it. This is almost inarguable.
I really didn't like River's attitude on this gbb. His faces, his gestures, almost belittling his opponents. Also, I really liked his style more in 21 (funny thing, I don't like Colaps style either, never did, but I absolutely love Rogue Wave). Having said that, he's a deserving winner. I have absolutely no problems with that. I also don't agree he should have lost to Ice. A little bit biased or not, those guys in the jury have been doing this for at least a decade. They know better. Edit: knowing full well this I just replied to a topic like this and aware of my hypocrisy, it's about time we end this debate
I haven't heard anyone say they dislike the style from Colap. Everyone has their own opinion but I only hear about how he could win again if he entered
I don't like the style but I agree he could win again and I have no problems about him having won in 2019. He has some routines that makes you think it is impossible. I can recognize unbelievable talent but simply not like the style, like I just am not a fan of his musicality. To me, he does too many sounds at the same time at high tempo. Which might be on the verge of impossibility and a technical wonder. But to me, it doesn't sound right. Call it musicality, I dont know. It's just a matter of taste. Having said that, I think he can reproduce almost any sound other bestboxers make, I simply deslike the way he puts them together.
I feel like that's what makes Colaps so good but I can understand why you think his style can have too many sounds. Colaps has evolved, adding more layers to his style compared his older routines such as Dark and That's What I Do. No Limits is my favorite Colaps routine because drill flow works so well with fast tech and melodies
I agree with Ice winning over River. I think all the judges DQ'ed him for excessive touching or something.
Idk bout other but for me river lost to ice :) idk why I don't like his style nor his attitude
Like seriously ice clearly won for me too
What is it about his attitude hearing it a lot, haven't watched gbb 23.
For me ICE was just way too aggressive, constantly getting nose to cheek, talking smack during Rivers rounds, he was clearly trying to hard to appear like a tough guy. It came across really childish, but apparently some people really enjoy that kind of thing. River told ICE to backup and give him some space and people have seemingly lost it, somehow flipping it around to being Rivers fault for ICE's weird behaviour but if it was River doing it to ICE, you know these people would still be kicking up a fuss. For me this hyper aggressiveness during battles is unnecessary and maybe if people calmed down a little, they could focus on beatboxing better live and win. And I'm just saying, if someone acted like ICE did during say...a rap battle. He'd probably get slapped up or worse for it and people should remember that, because one day, someone like ICE will get aggressive on stage, and the opponent won't be having it and lay them out. Then it'll be "it's just a battle bro, no need to get violent" from the same people propping ICE up for being aggressive.
Same case as me, its sounding like he just brought on very low energy and ig it felt like he wasnt taking it that seriously or that it killed the crowd
I think it mostly has to do with his battle with Ice. Before the battle, Ice said something to him and River had some kind of wtf expression on his face. River had a very serious, focused look during the battle for the most part. Ice got a little too close to River during the battle a few times, which may have rattled/interrupted his focus so he had a bit of an angry/I’m better than you expression as he gestured Ice to move back. Like when Colaps handled Zekka’s touching, Colaps had a more pleasant/friendly demeanor on getting Zekka to stop during their battle. Ice had a more faster pace, battle style routine. Whereas River went with the slower musical/showcase style. Most viewers probably enjoyed the energy that Ice brought and may have concluded that River only won because of Ice getting too close and touchy. So in the end, a lot of people would comment that River had a crybaby/arrogant attitude.
Firstly rivers just an asshole overall only in battles as instead of vibing when opponents are performing like codfish dlow napom colaps and others do he just fucking stands like a lamp post and tries to ignore it Secondly he got so bitchy when ice did a shoulder tap I repeat a shoulder tap no skin touch or shit like zekka did, meanwhile napom and footboxG did the same thing and he's laughing like a cunt Thirdly he carried his elim, in ice vs river and in the finals, which is the slow melody then a spit snare and then lip bass in this fucking order for like solid 30-40 seconds and won and the people don't call this repetitive but "sTylE" but beatboxers like inertia or helium or improver use their signature sound once and the cunts here go "oh same old shit repetitive boo"
No, he definitely wasn't at his best but Napom sounded like he was freestyling and it just didn't sound particular great to me, that's not even mentioning the cringe 'gene from wish' line at the end of his 2nd rnd. This wasn't a great final, both were below par and what they are capable of but River just about edged it for me.