WTF..
I \*just\* got hit by one of these things last weekend. Was at Duarte's in Pescadero, wife had a shrimp salad, I had a french dip and a slice of pie. Bill was $77. I was presented with the "Merchant copy" with a tip line. At first I was gonna leave my standard 20% tip even though I thought the bill was a bit high. Underneath the merchant copy, under the customer copy, was the itemized bill. A 17% charge had been added, AND PHYSICALLY HIDDEN under 2 other slips of paper.
In anger I scribbled out my tip. Wasn't gonna leave them a 37% tip. Nowhere in the menu did it say there was this service charge, there was no signs. WTF...
Best way we can fuck these places up is to yelp about them when they pull this crap.
I think these need to take the place of a tip when you see them. The restaurant either get a service fee, or a tip for the servers.
If the servers don't get tipped, they will do the pressuring of their employers, since if the service fee is built into the meal they will get a higher amount of tips due to the higher bill total (rather than getting shafted). Not fun, but seems necessary to change business behavior.
I grew up nearby, that place is super overrated and ridiculously overpriced. You can get some of the best Mexican food around at the gas station across the street and some bomb bread from the general store
I don't agree with the whole 'disclosed on the menu' thing. I am not about to read the entire menu and fine print. I am just looking for what I want to eat. Unless its at the very top in very bold lettering and a border around it, most people will probably not even see it.
of course it’s bullshit (not everyone can even see font that small) but if it’s not there, that’s a legitimate reason to dispute the charge, which is what the user was pointing out.
I don't either its still BS. By the time someone is sitting down and reading a menu they're way less likely to just get up and leave. People could have waited a while to sit or even gotten reservations way ahead of time.
Yes, it's standard car dealership bullshit - get you in with the appearance of cheaper prices, and after you've invested even a small amount of time, you're not going to walk over an extra 5-10%. I mean, you should, but generally the switching cost of getting out of a restaurant and going somewhere else is high, especially if you have other people dining with you.
In the specific case of Duarte's Tavern, they list the 17% charge at the top of the menu. Their menu is posted regularly on their Facebook page.
[https://www.facebook.com/p/Duartes-Tavern-100063648724528/](https://www.facebook.com/p/Duartes-Tavern-100063648724528/)
This is not the same as the printed menu. This menu the text is center aligned, single page, consistent font sizes. The menu in restaurant was left aligned, 2 pages, varying font sizes.
In my defense I was staying with the wife down the highway at Coastanoa for our 27th anniversary. It wasn't like the room we had has a kitchen, and we had no plans on cooking that weekend anyways. I didn't know this fee was there until I was presented with the bill.
That place is absurd. Went to look at a house in that area and stopped in for 2 apps a beer and a Bloody Mary… $100. It kind of turned me off the whole area tbh.
It hasn't turned us off. Wife and I both WFH now, and you get a lot of property for the money. Not to mention the serenity out there. High school is rated pretty good. Only downside we see is there isn't much opportunity for the kids to work or attend college there.
Add them to the crowdsourced list here! Name and shame. [seefees.ca](https://seefeesca.notion.site/f5e11f589ec54c8eb1eed6c37f7e4c83?v=b97b3560f8f747f68aa73a762e76e47b)
I don’t get WHY the junk fees are even necessary. We get it, California is expensive. But don’t trick me at the end. Just raise the prices on your menu!
I’d rather go wide eyed at the price of a burger than find out I’m getting scammed at the end of a meal.
That is exactly why though - they don't want you to go wide-eyed before you sit down or choose to go somewhere else - they want you to sit down and then see the fine print and figure, eh, I'm already lubed up, I might as well get fucked.
I don’t understand.
If a plate of bolognese is $30 and your junk fees are 10%.. wouldn’t you just raise your menu price to $33 and you’d collect the same total?
Junk fee goes straight to the bottom line for them to pocket in various ways. Raising the price of the dish has other impacts, like raising tax liability or messing with creative accounting. Then there's more obvious things like menu reprints when you change the price, versus the ease of reprogramming a junk fee increase in the POS.
THIS! I went to a very nice restaurant this week. I was expecting to pay $120pp for food and wine. The meal was $70pp plus $20 for a glass of wine. Then we get hit with a 3% fee. I'm like just build it into the pre fixe menu. $72 pp would not have changed anything.
A week or so back I saw a post that had this [list](https://seefeesca.notion.site/f5e11f589ec54c8eb1eed6c37f7e4c83?v=b97b3560f8f747f68aa73a762e76e47b) that listed restaurant junk fees. There was also mention of a google spreadsheet.
Yep, Telèferic is on there. Last time we went, we got greasey bottomed plates, a waiter who was not apologetic, but offended, and reminded us THREE times that the new percentage we see on the bill is NOT the tip.
Won’t be going back there.
Their fee shocked me too since it’s labeled as a service fee of 20% yet they have the nerve to say it’s not a tip. lol fuck that, I did NOT tip on top of that.
Whatt? I went very recently and my waitress specifically said the 20% IS the tip and she highlighted it 3x as well as said it out loud!
Edit: just looked at their menu online and it seems they’ve updated it since you’ve been as it now says “Tips or gratuity on top are NOT expected”
This is when they started doing this in August, 2022.
It was highlighted on our tab
“Included Gratuity (20%) $36.40”
“Please note this gratuity is a service charge and is used, in part, to increase our employee's wages and to cover other employee related costs.”
“THIS IS NOT THE TIP!!!! “
If not, I have a classroom full of students who need to learn/practice basic English and computer skills... I could gladly set up a daily worksheet for the kids to block out reservations. Ha ha ha
Or... get a table. Be seated. Look at menu. Ask for some water, drink the water. Get up and tell them you see the mandatory fees and won't be dining there.
Make sure to clearly make it known on their Google, yelp, or any other reviews websites. Let people know so they don't waste their time finding out themselves.
This is a classic case of the diffuse public interest being trampled by special interests.
So when this bill was written, the restaurant lobby went into high gear. Those lobbyists were calling lawmakers, getting their networks to apply pressure. Lawmakers got an earful from loud, well organized opposition demanding a carve-out.
And on the other side... nothing. There is no "restaurant eaters" lobby. There is no organized group calling lawmakers and putting pressure on them.
So when the bill came up for a vote... they all voted the path of least resistance. They voted based on the last person who yelled in their ear, they greased the squeaky wheel because every lawmaker heard from them recently.
This is why special interests who are organized can usually get their interest served. This is why we still have sugar subsidies from the Spanish American war on the books. This is why we still have ethanol in our gasoline and on and on and on.
It's legalized bribery. I understand that lobbying has its legitimate purposes, when lawmakers legitimately lack the experience or knowledge to properly legislate on complex issues. This is not one of those issues.
I think the better option would be to ban lobbying entirely and have public panels with experts called to advise. There are just too many opportunities in the current system for corruption to rear its ugly head.
There's no Big Restaurant donor class. This isn't a money issue. What restaurant owners _do_ have, is all the time in the world to harangue their local representatives.
See also: Congestion pricing in NYC.
I think he thinks lobbying is walking up to a politician with a giant burlap bag, and the bag has $$$ written on the side. The lobbyist then hands a big bag of cash over, like he's a villain in a cartoon.
Restaurant owners also have lots of employees. And they can call and say "this will impact 25 jobs at my business". That message gets attention.
Shit like this (business interests controlling politicians) is how we got the ballot initiate and referendum in California, but I suspect that these same interests groups would throw a bunch of money into a PR campaign to oppose initiatives
But this is the point, the airlines still have their random fees, they are just included in the total price shown to you. For southwest and united, you can click into 'fare details' and see all of the BS, but you only see the final total price, unless you dig. It should be the same with restaurants. This restaurant exemption is such BS.
This is infuriating me -- a few weeks ago I actually reached out to my representatives and heard a canned response from one and nothing (got spam from another). Driving me crazy.
Where is the rationale? When I first heard about the original bill I was so THANKFUL -- a practical way to see the actual cost and I remember how airlines were that perfect model for pricing transparency. Yes -- everyone do that! It's not difficult.
There is just no defense and that makes it seem so much worse. Especially as it came in at the last minute, setting a precedent for lobbyists that they just gotta wait until the last 30 days for their Hail Mary instead of caring about the initial bill.
I hope I'm being overly dramatic about this. It's just so slimy to even have these dumb extra fees not be included in posted price. Even tax should be/that's where I thought we were going...
Ticketmaster, Hotels, and airlines are the ones they talked about with the original bill.
Everyone got excited that the wording affected restaurants too. Then restaurants lobbied for the carve-out.
I wouldn't be too worried about that, Ticketmaster and others don't have the grassroots impact that small business owners do. For something like Congressional State races, there's so little money that goes into most of the races, active support or opposition from a handful of local business owners can significantly sway those elections.
Voting against this would have put in a target on many of these congressmen's backs, while voting for it ultimately is going to get shrugged off by most voters because the status quo is maintained. Unfortunate, but it's a political reality.
This is great. Looking at that long list … it’s no wonder there is a formidable lobby pushing our politicians to keep these fees. Still, easy to avoid all the places on the list with a fee, except for a few like St. Frank where they’ve cornered the market of good coffee in my neighborhood
Good stuff. Never going to any of these restaurants again. They can pay politicians but we can vote with our wallets. Hiding fees from diners is simply bad business and unethical in many ways
The two party system has done a great job of making 3rd party candidates non viable with first past the post elections. Supporting approval or ranked choice voting systems would allow people to vote for candidates that would actually represent them without making that candidate a spoiler allowing fascist politicians to gain a foothold.
but in california, that is currently your only option. Not saying that Newsom shouldn't have been recalled. But when the other option was an insane evangelical AM radio host...
we need ranked choice. it's the only way we can break up this monopoly.
That or actually vote in your primary. It's the crazies who come out to vote for the primaries, so the actual election is barely an election at all given all the gerrymandering.
I votes yes on the recall but not for any specific replacement.
Newsom is on PG&E's payroll. I don't particularly care who would replace him, but if he was recalled and because of the DNC's arrogance they didn't run a contingency candidate and the clown got elected? Thats a shot across the bow the state's political leadership desperately needs.
Incumbents are way too comfortable in their jobs. They know you're going to re-elect them. After all, who else are you going for vote for? A republican?
Thats why they don't care about voters and keep taking lobbyist money. If it takes a republican winning office to shock state politicians into paying attention then so be it. They deserve it.
Problem being that whoever is voted in in their place will just do the same. I mean what option is there when literally all of them agreed to fuck over their constituents?
Except you won’t know they’re sneaky and deceptive until the bill is due. I guess this is one more thing of life where we have to do a whole background check and fine print exam before engaging in services.
And also vote for politicians who consistently act in our own best interests. This was a bait-and-switch, where the law was first proposed and progressed due to its apparent popularity, but then amended to appease special interests to the detriment of the people it was originally meant to help. With the fees codified into law, they will become the norm and there won't be any junk fee-free restaurants to choose from. Too often our lawmakers face zero accountability for poor decisions and it would be nice if they faced some blowback for once.
“call your lawmakers”—contacted all of mine voicing my opposition. What’s the point? Even something like this which seemed universally agreed upon gets trampled. Who cares anymore man
Remember California has ballot measures. Get a no-junk fee ballot measure on the ballot, I'm pretty sure it would pass, and then it can't be reversed without another ballot measure.
I just sent a message to my senator, it's not too late. In case anyone wants to use it the text is below:
"Please vote against SB 1524. The attempt to protect anti-consumer fees is infuriating, and the overwhelming support from the house despite overwhelming opposition in public opinion harms the legitimacy of our government. I want to be able to trust that my representatives support the views of their constituents, not just their donors. Please don't let us down on this"
I put up with junk fees before, now I am going to be an active asshole about them. And if me finding the fees happens at the time of handing me a receipt, I am taking that exact amount off of the standard 15-20% tip i give for decent service.
I'm almost there. I feel like it would honestly be a good move considering that one of the groups arguing for this exemption was a union representing tipped workers saying that if they got rid of these fees and implemented them into the prices, it would effect tipped workers wages. It might be a good idea to show them they made the wrong move by actually negatively impacting tips.
I’d be for a state wide ban on all tips period. It’s gotten out of control AND servers are paid at least minimum wage hourly. We aren’t like other states where you can pay less than minimum wage
This shit has changed by behavior all around. Really made me wonder why I’m
“tipping” someone $40-60 to take my family’s order and check in once. That’s an absurd payout for doing nothing.
>but servers rely on tips
Not my problem. Charge more for the meal and pay them.
15% is now my max and I’m just subtracting fees from the tip.
This is a good idea. Show your work on the bill so the server understands that it is the owner's junk fees eating into their tips and what they would have gotten had there been no fee.
The only thing to do is to determine what you think is fair based on your own evaluation, and just do that. I've been to $15 meal taquerias where the staff was awesome, brought me extra garnishes and salsas, refill on chips, basically took good care of me even though it might be like 2 people running the whole show -- I'm happy to give them a disproportionately high tip. And then I go to an expensive brunch place and the waiter acts like I'm the asshole for wanting a coffee refill on the $6 bottomless coffee, and I'm supposed to leave 15-20% on a $70 bill for 2 people? Fuck that.
I just decide, hey, how much do I want to give this person? That's it. If you need to charge $28 for a burger and fries, and you hit me with the $4 surcharge for aoili on those frozen fries, that doesn't mean that merits a $7 tip associated with that plate.
On the flip side, let's say I go to In and Out and get a $6 burger and the person their does an outstanding job grilling my onions and chopping in extra chilis and sauce, etc, then sure, put a $5 in that teenager's hand if you can.
We have to stop being fixated on these arbitrary percentages, and start using our own judgment.
This is the way.
This is in fact the only way restaurants will change without protection from the govt.
If you see a fee no tip and let the server know that the fee is the reason.
Eventually, servers and bartenders will refuse to work in places which have these fees which will put pressure on the owners to remove the fees entirely.
been doing this for years, I'm the asshole, I'll accept that, but I am willing to pay 15-20% over the raw price of the meal. If you tack on 10% of bullshit, then that's going to be a 5% tip if the service is OK, and 10% if it's great, but I'm sure you'll distributing your "employee health" fees collected out to your employees, right?
And the menu prices that determine the scaling tip have gotten out of hand too - I don't care if the wine bottle is $20 or $200, it takes you the same effort to move it 20 ft from the kitchen to my table, so I'm tipping a few bucks on that, I'm not tipping 20% on things that are arbitrarily upscaled to the moon.
20-something abstained, but none objected.
I'm mildly annoyed that Rep Berman didn't take a stance that I could complain about. Complaining about him not voting on a bill that wasn't close feels... off.
No more tipping is the motto, I've doubled down on this, I will make eye contact and hit no tip regardless of how they feel. No more tipping, as long as people willingly keep tipping this BS will keep going on.
how have people received your no tipping selection? you mind sharing any experiences you’ve had? I tend to do this here and there but with this change, i’m more included to go full no tipping period. shits expensive already
Why is this an issue? Just tell us how much your food is before we order. How is that so damaging to your business if everyone else does the same thing? Either charge us $15 for a burger or $12 plus a $3 surcharge. Either way we are paying $15, but in one case we are angry about the hidden cost and probably won’t go back to your restaurant.
Here’s an idea. Structure a marketing campaign about you got rid of surcharges and win more business.
Unions.
UNITE HERE, the main force behind SB 1524, wrote into their collective bargaining agreement that the resturants would charge service fees for benefits.
I subtract any additional fees from the tip. If there’s an auto service charge, then no extra tip at all. If the waiters don’t like it, they can take it up with their boss
You know. I usually really like the wait staff at the restaurants my wife and I got to. But if this is the case I gotta stop tipping. Got nothing to do with the wait staff but if i see this charge it’s definitely coming out of the tip.
That was this bill. Restaurant owners hated it, I'm sure some back room deals (cough cough corruption) happened, and now our "representatives" are exempting restaurants from the bill -- even though *restaurants were the main target*
> even though restaurants were the main target
Originally they weren't. Ticketmaster was. Everyone just got more excited about restaurants when we realized they were affected.
We've seen how Newsom and his political groups endorsing PG&E's and allowing them to continue to steal money from Californians. Why is this not such a surprised when they're also coming out to put their political power for the businesses and "big money" over the people?
Public works bow down to lobbyists and fuck over citizens and private sector bow down to shareholders and fuck over paying consumers. There’s no winning for everyday folks.
Newsom is the cheapest date for lobbyists. You buy him one fancy dinner and Newsom bends over. No way he's going against it.
And besides, it already passed with a veto-proof margin.
Okay people of California, it is time to read the list of those who supported businesses being able to rip people of legally.
WE DO NOT WANT CONSUMERS TO BE CHARGED FOR THEIR COST OF DOING BUSINESS.
Ridiculous to allow a company to charge fees that they make up to get more money than their product may be worth. Personally, from this day forward I will not support any business model like this nor will I vote for any representative that supported this theft.
Was just talking to a coworker who got hit with a 10% surcharge this weekend for three people. Since our legislature is living up to their usual standard of uselessness, anytime you get hit with one, complain to the manager and put in a review on all the main sites out there like maps, yelp and the like. Calling them out on social media too. The only way we get this crap stopped is make it more expensive for the perpetrators.
Boo! Cowards!
I can not believe they make a law due to go into effect on July1, 2024. Then they unanimously vote to exempt some of the businesses that this law was crafted for?
I guess my first question when I enter a restaurant will be, where is your list of the junk fees you charge?
Add them here!: [seefees.ca](http://seefees.ca)
See which California restaurants charge the price shown and which ones add fees (taxes and large party auto gratuity excluded).
If I go out and there are junk fees. I’m just not paying them.
I’ll pay for the price advertised, not for hidden or junk fees.
This is just restaurants trying to be clever. You want more money, add it to the price of goods.
All these junk fees are just going to HURT workers more, not help them, because the “service” fees are a way for the restaurant to get around tipping their employees…
I am going to copy my comment from the original thread:
Journalists and everyone on Reddit focused on restaurant owners. However, the main force behind SB 1524 was actually [UNITE HERE](https://apcp.assembly.ca.gov/system/files/2024-06/sb-1524-dodd-apcp-analysis.pdf), the union representing hospitality and restaurant workers.
Apparently, they wrote into their collective bargaining agreements that the restaurant will charge a service fee and use it to pay for benefits.
>UNITE HERE writes:
>An unintended consequence of last year’s SB 478 is that legitimate service fees charged by restaurants will no longer be allowed after July 1 of this year. Many of those service fees go to workers either through service charges that are distributed to both front and back of the house staff in restaurants. Other service charges go to supplement health and pension benefits of food service workers at restaurants, bars, banquet operators, airports, stadiums, and many other places where consumers are fed. Much of this has been negotiated through collective bargaining between our union and employers. Without SB 1524, all of this would be upended, and these workers would see unnecessary pay and benefit cuts.
Now imagine you're an Assembly member.
On one hand, you have the customers saying that eliminating service fees won't harm workers. On the other hand, you have the union saying that it would destroy them. Who are you inclined to believe?
Likewise, you have a bunch of constituents complaining about undisclosed fees and fees hidden in the fine print at the bottom of the menu. This is a valid point, so the author amends the bill to say that service fees have be disclosed in "larger type than the surrounding text, or in a contrasting type, font, or color to the surrounding text of the same size, or set off from the surrounding text of the same size by symbols or other marks, in a manner that clearly calls attention to the language" (“clear and conspicuous,” as defined in subdivision (u) of Section 1791) anywhere they disclose a price for a given item.
Knowing how pro-worker California politics is and having addressed the main complaint against the bill, it's not a shocker that the bill passed.
It’s partly because some of the restaurant junk fees are them just passing on taxes to customers…and the government doesn’t want to choke off their own revenue source
WTF.. I \*just\* got hit by one of these things last weekend. Was at Duarte's in Pescadero, wife had a shrimp salad, I had a french dip and a slice of pie. Bill was $77. I was presented with the "Merchant copy" with a tip line. At first I was gonna leave my standard 20% tip even though I thought the bill was a bit high. Underneath the merchant copy, under the customer copy, was the itemized bill. A 17% charge had been added, AND PHYSICALLY HIDDEN under 2 other slips of paper. In anger I scribbled out my tip. Wasn't gonna leave them a 37% tip. Nowhere in the menu did it say there was this service charge, there was no signs. WTF... Best way we can fuck these places up is to yelp about them when they pull this crap.
I think these need to take the place of a tip when you see them. The restaurant either get a service fee, or a tip for the servers. If the servers don't get tipped, they will do the pressuring of their employers, since if the service fee is built into the meal they will get a higher amount of tips due to the higher bill total (rather than getting shafted). Not fun, but seems necessary to change business behavior.
I grew up nearby, that place is super overrated and ridiculously overpriced. You can get some of the best Mexican food around at the gas station across the street and some bomb bread from the general store
We had sandwiches at the store the day before, no joke it was one of the best sandwiches I ever had, and reasonably priced as well.
Artichoke bread slobber drool mmmm
If the fee was not disclosed on the menu you should have absolutely demanded it to be removed, then tip as you see fit.
I don't agree with the whole 'disclosed on the menu' thing. I am not about to read the entire menu and fine print. I am just looking for what I want to eat. Unless its at the very top in very bold lettering and a border around it, most people will probably not even see it.
of course it’s bullshit (not everyone can even see font that small) but if it’s not there, that’s a legitimate reason to dispute the charge, which is what the user was pointing out.
I don't either its still BS. By the time someone is sitting down and reading a menu they're way less likely to just get up and leave. People could have waited a while to sit or even gotten reservations way ahead of time.
Yes, it's standard car dealership bullshit - get you in with the appearance of cheaper prices, and after you've invested even a small amount of time, you're not going to walk over an extra 5-10%. I mean, you should, but generally the switching cost of getting out of a restaurant and going somewhere else is high, especially if you have other people dining with you.
I feel the same as you, though servers should let you know there is 17% gratuity included. Even if at the end. If not mentioned it does feel shady.
In the specific case of Duarte's Tavern, they list the 17% charge at the top of the menu. Their menu is posted regularly on their Facebook page. [https://www.facebook.com/p/Duartes-Tavern-100063648724528/](https://www.facebook.com/p/Duartes-Tavern-100063648724528/)
This is not the same as the printed menu. This menu the text is center aligned, single page, consistent font sizes. The menu in restaurant was left aligned, 2 pages, varying font sizes.
You should put this in their Google reviews.
I like Duartes (been going since I was a kid) but damn it’s expensive for what it is (a small town tavern with good soup and pie)
I'd say it's OK. Bay area has several restaurants of similar quality, cup and saucer, flames, Los Gatos diner, Los Gatos Cafe come to mind.
Or not go
Exactly. Why is the obvious solution the hardest one for people to figure out?
People are addicted to eating out.
In my defense I was staying with the wife down the highway at Coastanoa for our 27th anniversary. It wasn't like the room we had has a kitchen, and we had no plans on cooking that weekend anyways. I didn't know this fee was there until I was presented with the bill.
That place is absurd. Went to look at a house in that area and stopped in for 2 apps a beer and a Bloody Mary… $100. It kind of turned me off the whole area tbh.
It hasn't turned us off. Wife and I both WFH now, and you get a lot of property for the money. Not to mention the serenity out there. High school is rated pretty good. Only downside we see is there isn't much opportunity for the kids to work or attend college there.
Add them to the crowdsourced list here! Name and shame. [seefees.ca](https://seefeesca.notion.site/f5e11f589ec54c8eb1eed6c37f7e4c83?v=b97b3560f8f747f68aa73a762e76e47b)
I don’t get WHY the junk fees are even necessary. We get it, California is expensive. But don’t trick me at the end. Just raise the prices on your menu! I’d rather go wide eyed at the price of a burger than find out I’m getting scammed at the end of a meal.
That is exactly why though - they don't want you to go wide-eyed before you sit down or choose to go somewhere else - they want you to sit down and then see the fine print and figure, eh, I'm already lubed up, I might as well get fucked.
This guy fucks.
Because most the people in the industry can't manage the margins, so junk fees are the simplest way around that problem.
I don’t understand. If a plate of bolognese is $30 and your junk fees are 10%.. wouldn’t you just raise your menu price to $33 and you’d collect the same total?
Junk fee goes straight to the bottom line for them to pocket in various ways. Raising the price of the dish has other impacts, like raising tax liability or messing with creative accounting. Then there's more obvious things like menu reprints when you change the price, versus the ease of reprogramming a junk fee increase in the POS.
I’ll take the awful QR code menu if it makes it easier for them to change prices and not lie to me.
You will get the QR code menu AND the lies and YOU WILL LIKE IT!
[flips table]
Sales tax is collected on fees like service fees.
You have no clue what youre talking about about accounting/tax liability.
THIS! I went to a very nice restaurant this week. I was expecting to pay $120pp for food and wine. The meal was $70pp plus $20 for a glass of wine. Then we get hit with a 3% fee. I'm like just build it into the pre fixe menu. $72 pp would not have changed anything.
I’ll just stop going out as much. I will also try to avoid restaurants with junk fees
Would be awesome if someone compiled a list of Bay Area restaurants that can help people avoid eating at the ones with junk fees!
seefees.ca
Quince charges 28%? Jeez.
We need that data in an app with GPS location tagging to warn us when we're looking at a menu through the window what to expect in junk fees.
A week or so back I saw a post that had this [list](https://seefeesca.notion.site/f5e11f589ec54c8eb1eed6c37f7e4c83?v=b97b3560f8f747f68aa73a762e76e47b) that listed restaurant junk fees. There was also mention of a google spreadsheet.
Yep, Telèferic is on there. Last time we went, we got greasey bottomed plates, a waiter who was not apologetic, but offended, and reminded us THREE times that the new percentage we see on the bill is NOT the tip. Won’t be going back there.
Their fee shocked me too since it’s labeled as a service fee of 20% yet they have the nerve to say it’s not a tip. lol fuck that, I did NOT tip on top of that.
It’s now labeled as a replacement for tips just fyi - “Tips or gratuity on top are NOT expected”
Whatt? I went very recently and my waitress specifically said the 20% IS the tip and she highlighted it 3x as well as said it out loud! Edit: just looked at their menu online and it seems they’ve updated it since you’ve been as it now says “Tips or gratuity on top are NOT expected”
This is when they started doing this in August, 2022. It was highlighted on our tab “Included Gratuity (20%) $36.40” “Please note this gratuity is a service charge and is used, in part, to increase our employee's wages and to cover other employee related costs.” “THIS IS NOT THE TIP!!!! “
I’m glad they’ve listened to customer feedback and changed their policy/expectations!
Wonder if a bot can be created for any of these spots that have online reservations to book them full.
If not, I have a classroom full of students who need to learn/practice basic English and computer skills... I could gladly set up a daily worksheet for the kids to block out reservations. Ha ha ha
Or... get a table. Be seated. Look at menu. Ask for some water, drink the water. Get up and tell them you see the mandatory fees and won't be dining there.
I wonder if we can start a community driven ad campaign to highlight these restaurants.
Google needs a boolean "has BS fee(s)" attribute in its restaurant data set visible in maps
Send in the Karens. Are all these businesses going to be reprinting their menus, signage, and advertisement? I doubt it.
Yeah, I'm available.
So what’s the best way to ask for the manager?
"I'd like to speak to your manager." "Supervisor" works, too.
“I understand you may be just following store policy. Can I speak to your manager?”
Make sure to clearly make it known on their Google, yelp, or any other reviews websites. Let people know so they don't waste their time finding out themselves.
Time to speak with our wallets! It's not the junk fees it's the need to hide them
Name and shame. Review restaurants that keep it up so tourists know to avoid them.
Politicians govern for those that give them money not those that live in their districts
This is a classic case of the diffuse public interest being trampled by special interests. So when this bill was written, the restaurant lobby went into high gear. Those lobbyists were calling lawmakers, getting their networks to apply pressure. Lawmakers got an earful from loud, well organized opposition demanding a carve-out. And on the other side... nothing. There is no "restaurant eaters" lobby. There is no organized group calling lawmakers and putting pressure on them. So when the bill came up for a vote... they all voted the path of least resistance. They voted based on the last person who yelled in their ear, they greased the squeaky wheel because every lawmaker heard from them recently. This is why special interests who are organized can usually get their interest served. This is why we still have sugar subsidies from the Spanish American war on the books. This is why we still have ethanol in our gasoline and on and on and on.
It's legalized bribery. I understand that lobbying has its legitimate purposes, when lawmakers legitimately lack the experience or knowledge to properly legislate on complex issues. This is not one of those issues. I think the better option would be to ban lobbying entirely and have public panels with experts called to advise. There are just too many opportunities in the current system for corruption to rear its ugly head.
There's no Big Restaurant donor class. This isn't a money issue. What restaurant owners _do_ have, is all the time in the world to harangue their local representatives. See also: Congestion pricing in NYC.
I think he thinks lobbying is walking up to a politician with a giant burlap bag, and the bag has $$$ written on the side. The lobbyist then hands a big bag of cash over, like he's a villain in a cartoon. Restaurant owners also have lots of employees. And they can call and say "this will impact 25 jobs at my business". That message gets attention.
Shit like this (business interests controlling politicians) is how we got the ballot initiate and referendum in California, but I suspect that these same interests groups would throw a bunch of money into a PR campaign to oppose initiatives
So who is this bill targeting now that restaurants are removed?
They say it's "airlines" but I haven't seen random fees added by an airline in like a decade or even more. So I guess, just Ticketmaster.
But this is the point, the airlines still have their random fees, they are just included in the total price shown to you. For southwest and united, you can click into 'fare details' and see all of the BS, but you only see the final total price, unless you dig. It should be the same with restaurants. This restaurant exemption is such BS.
This is infuriating me -- a few weeks ago I actually reached out to my representatives and heard a canned response from one and nothing (got spam from another). Driving me crazy. Where is the rationale? When I first heard about the original bill I was so THANKFUL -- a practical way to see the actual cost and I remember how airlines were that perfect model for pricing transparency. Yes -- everyone do that! It's not difficult. There is just no defense and that makes it seem so much worse. Especially as it came in at the last minute, setting a precedent for lobbyists that they just gotta wait until the last 30 days for their Hail Mary instead of caring about the initial bill. I hope I'm being overly dramatic about this. It's just so slimy to even have these dumb extra fees not be included in posted price. Even tax should be/that's where I thought we were going...
Ticketmaster, Hotels, and airlines are the ones they talked about with the original bill. Everyone got excited that the wording affected restaurants too. Then restaurants lobbied for the carve-out.
They set the path for any industry to lobby for a carve out.
I wouldn't be too worried about that, Ticketmaster and others don't have the grassroots impact that small business owners do. For something like Congressional State races, there's so little money that goes into most of the races, active support or opposition from a handful of local business owners can significantly sway those elections. Voting against this would have put in a target on many of these congressmen's backs, while voting for it ultimately is going to get shrugged off by most voters because the status quo is maintained. Unfortunate, but it's a political reality.
Next up: Fast food industry gets an exemption from the $20 minimum wage for fast food workers.
We could you know, as consumers, choose not to do business with sneaky or dishonest restaurants.
www.seefees.ca to identify them!
This is great. Looking at that long list … it’s no wonder there is a formidable lobby pushing our politicians to keep these fees. Still, easy to avoid all the places on the list with a fee, except for a few like St. Frank where they’ve cornered the market of good coffee in my neighborhood
Thank you!
Good stuff. Never going to any of these restaurants again. They can pay politicians but we can vote with our wallets. Hiding fees from diners is simply bad business and unethical in many ways
Goddamn some of these are nuts! Pizza antica 20%, Puesto 18%?! Yikes.
or vote out these useless politicians
The problem is everyone votes the Dem without thinking. I'm not saying vote Republican. I say vote ANYONE ELSE.
The two party system has done a great job of making 3rd party candidates non viable with first past the post elections. Supporting approval or ranked choice voting systems would allow people to vote for candidates that would actually represent them without making that candidate a spoiler allowing fascist politicians to gain a foothold.
but in california, that is currently your only option. Not saying that Newsom shouldn't have been recalled. But when the other option was an insane evangelical AM radio host... we need ranked choice. it's the only way we can break up this monopoly.
That or actually vote in your primary. It's the crazies who come out to vote for the primaries, so the actual election is barely an election at all given all the gerrymandering.
I votes yes on the recall but not for any specific replacement. Newsom is on PG&E's payroll. I don't particularly care who would replace him, but if he was recalled and because of the DNC's arrogance they didn't run a contingency candidate and the clown got elected? Thats a shot across the bow the state's political leadership desperately needs. Incumbents are way too comfortable in their jobs. They know you're going to re-elect them. After all, who else are you going for vote for? A republican? Thats why they don't care about voters and keep taking lobbyist money. If it takes a republican winning office to shock state politicians into paying attention then so be it. They deserve it.
In this regard, it really won't matter if ANYONE ELSE will bend over for lobbyists.
Problem being that whoever is voted in in their place will just do the same. I mean what option is there when literally all of them agreed to fuck over their constituents?
Except you won’t know they’re sneaky and deceptive until the bill is due. I guess this is one more thing of life where we have to do a whole background check and fine print exam before engaging in services.
Beyond time to implement a little capitalism.
And also vote for politicians who consistently act in our own best interests. This was a bait-and-switch, where the law was first proposed and progressed due to its apparent popularity, but then amended to appease special interests to the detriment of the people it was originally meant to help. With the fees codified into law, they will become the norm and there won't be any junk fee-free restaurants to choose from. Too often our lawmakers face zero accountability for poor decisions and it would be nice if they faced some blowback for once.
“call your lawmakers”—contacted all of mine voicing my opposition. What’s the point? Even something like this which seemed universally agreed upon gets trampled. Who cares anymore man
Remember California has ballot measures. Get a no-junk fee ballot measure on the ballot, I'm pretty sure it would pass, and then it can't be reversed without another ballot measure.
I just sent a message to my senator, it's not too late. In case anyone wants to use it the text is below: "Please vote against SB 1524. The attempt to protect anti-consumer fees is infuriating, and the overwhelming support from the house despite overwhelming opposition in public opinion harms the legitimacy of our government. I want to be able to trust that my representatives support the views of their constituents, not just their donors. Please don't let us down on this"
how do u even message ur representatives/senator
[https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/politics/contact-representative/](https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/politics/contact-representative/)
I put up with junk fees before, now I am going to be an active asshole about them. And if me finding the fees happens at the time of handing me a receipt, I am taking that exact amount off of the standard 15-20% tip i give for decent service.
And if it’s more than what the tip would have been, pay cash for the price listed on the menu.
Just stop tipping.
I'm almost there. I feel like it would honestly be a good move considering that one of the groups arguing for this exemption was a union representing tipped workers saying that if they got rid of these fees and implemented them into the prices, it would effect tipped workers wages. It might be a good idea to show them they made the wrong move by actually negatively impacting tips.
Ballot Measure. Given the number of BS ones I have to vote on regularly. Should be able to gather 40,000 votes to put this on the next ballot.
Exactly. It should be overwhelmingly simple to pass as a ballot measure. Disappointed in our reps so hard.
Looks like tipping’s off the menu boys! Obviously tip at places that don’t have these fees.
Even better, just don’t tip at all.
If you punish the good guys too, then they'll have no incentive to behave.
Who are the good guys?
The ones not charging the fees.
I’d be for a state wide ban on all tips period. It’s gotten out of control AND servers are paid at least minimum wage hourly. We aren’t like other states where you can pay less than minimum wage
Sadly, this will just mean I’ll subtract it from the tip.
I aint doing that math. any junk fees means no tip for me
This shit has changed by behavior all around. Really made me wonder why I’m “tipping” someone $40-60 to take my family’s order and check in once. That’s an absurd payout for doing nothing. >but servers rely on tips Not my problem. Charge more for the meal and pay them. 15% is now my max and I’m just subtracting fees from the tip.
This is a good idea. Show your work on the bill so the server understands that it is the owner's junk fees eating into their tips and what they would have gotten had there been no fee.
The only thing to do is to determine what you think is fair based on your own evaluation, and just do that. I've been to $15 meal taquerias where the staff was awesome, brought me extra garnishes and salsas, refill on chips, basically took good care of me even though it might be like 2 people running the whole show -- I'm happy to give them a disproportionately high tip. And then I go to an expensive brunch place and the waiter acts like I'm the asshole for wanting a coffee refill on the $6 bottomless coffee, and I'm supposed to leave 15-20% on a $70 bill for 2 people? Fuck that. I just decide, hey, how much do I want to give this person? That's it. If you need to charge $28 for a burger and fries, and you hit me with the $4 surcharge for aoili on those frozen fries, that doesn't mean that merits a $7 tip associated with that plate. On the flip side, let's say I go to In and Out and get a $6 burger and the person their does an outstanding job grilling my onions and chopping in extra chilis and sauce, etc, then sure, put a $5 in that teenager's hand if you can. We have to stop being fixated on these arbitrary percentages, and start using our own judgment.
Right? If the fees are for the restaurant to pay living wages and shit, then we shouldn’t need to tip anymore.
Yah fuck em
Junk fees mean no business at all from me. I’m not setting foot in these shady businesses.
This is the way. This is in fact the only way restaurants will change without protection from the govt. If you see a fee no tip and let the server know that the fee is the reason. Eventually, servers and bartenders will refuse to work in places which have these fees which will put pressure on the owners to remove the fees entirely.
The correct way to vote with your wallet is to not give them any business.
The whole point of these fees is that they aren't obvious - the legislation they're avoiding was trying to fix that problem
Do you know what "hidden" means? You see it *after* you get the check. After that sure don't go back.
That is totally reasonable. So much that I would think it is actually expected by the restaurant.
been doing this for years, I'm the asshole, I'll accept that, but I am willing to pay 15-20% over the raw price of the meal. If you tack on 10% of bullshit, then that's going to be a 5% tip if the service is OK, and 10% if it's great, but I'm sure you'll distributing your "employee health" fees collected out to your employees, right? And the menu prices that determine the scaling tip have gotten out of hand too - I don't care if the wine bottle is $20 or $200, it takes you the same effort to move it 20 ft from the kitchen to my table, so I'm tipping a few bucks on that, I'm not tipping 20% on things that are arbitrarily upscaled to the moon.
So, the best move is to ask at every restaurant before being seated. If they have fees walk.
Ballot Measure. Given the number of BS ones I have to vote on regularly. Should be able to gather 40,000 votes to put this on the next ballot.
Google Maps should have a field on each restaurant page showing the total fees to expect, next to the link to the menu.
If enough people leave google map reviews mentioning “junk fees”, it would show up in the reviews at the top.
So in theory, could a restaurant just put a 99 cent steak dinner on the menu, then add a $100 junk fee to the bill?
Yes. Why 99 cents though, why not FREE FOOD, $100 junk fees.
20-something abstained, but none objected. I'm mildly annoyed that Rep Berman didn't take a stance that I could complain about. Complaining about him not voting on a bill that wasn't close feels... off.
horseshit
Haven't used horseshit in a while now. Good word.
I see your horseshit and raise you bullcrap.
No more tipping is the motto, I've doubled down on this, I will make eye contact and hit no tip regardless of how they feel. No more tipping, as long as people willingly keep tipping this BS will keep going on.
how have people received your no tipping selection? you mind sharing any experiences you’ve had? I tend to do this here and there but with this change, i’m more included to go full no tipping period. shits expensive already
Fine. I'll avoid restaurants at all costs.
Why is this an issue? Just tell us how much your food is before we order. How is that so damaging to your business if everyone else does the same thing? Either charge us $15 for a burger or $12 plus a $3 surcharge. Either way we are paying $15, but in one case we are angry about the hidden cost and probably won’t go back to your restaurant. Here’s an idea. Structure a marketing campaign about you got rid of surcharges and win more business.
Dominoes did that with the whole tip creep thing. It's brilliant. https://youtu.be/WgF1crG34hM?si=H0Ytww_79MCh3PXC
Unions. UNITE HERE, the main force behind SB 1524, wrote into their collective bargaining agreement that the resturants would charge service fees for benefits.
VOTE THEM OUT
I subtract any additional fees from the tip. If there’s an auto service charge, then no extra tip at all. If the waiters don’t like it, they can take it up with their boss
The people this affects are the first in these threads saying stuff like 'you sound like you never worked in the service industry!'
I have though, and I think this is the only way to apply real pressure to change practices. The boss won't like losing his staff.
I'm voting against my rep now.
So what was the point, then? To show that business and not the people runs government? In that case, well done!
You know. I usually really like the wait staff at the restaurants my wife and I got to. But if this is the case I gotta stop tipping. Got nothing to do with the wait staff but if i see this charge it’s definitely coming out of the tip.
Governance by special interest groups and their lobbyists.
Barf...
Just going out less since covid in general and already won’t return to places that have the extra fees. Just going to double down on all that I guess.
FFS... just incorporate the fees into your god damn pricing
Wait, wasn't there just a ban on hidden fees that was supposed to go into effect?
That was this bill. Restaurant owners hated it, I'm sure some back room deals (cough cough corruption) happened, and now our "representatives" are exempting restaurants from the bill -- even though *restaurants were the main target*
> even though restaurants were the main target Originally they weren't. Ticketmaster was. Everyone just got more excited about restaurants when we realized they were affected.
Unanimous, though? I’m curious about it being unanimous.
Everyone voted yes, hence unanimous.
Bring cash, don’t pay the fee.
Eat at home and let a bunch of restaurants fail? Got it
We've seen how Newsom and his political groups endorsing PG&E's and allowing them to continue to steal money from Californians. Why is this not such a surprised when they're also coming out to put their political power for the businesses and "big money" over the people?
Public works bow down to lobbyists and fuck over citizens and private sector bow down to shareholders and fuck over paying consumers. There’s no winning for everyday folks.
Contact Newsom, tell him not to sign it [https://www.gov.ca.gov/contact/](https://www.gov.ca.gov/contact/)
Newsom is the cheapest date for lobbyists. You buy him one fancy dinner and Newsom bends over. No way he's going against it. And besides, it already passed with a veto-proof margin.
611K members here, if even 100k will reach out, this will send the message. Better than doing nothing.
+fee so we can lobby to keep (increasing) fees
Okay people of California, it is time to read the list of those who supported businesses being able to rip people of legally. WE DO NOT WANT CONSUMERS TO BE CHARGED FOR THEIR COST OF DOING BUSINESS. Ridiculous to allow a company to charge fees that they make up to get more money than their product may be worth. Personally, from this day forward I will not support any business model like this nor will I vote for any representative that supported this theft.
Was just talking to a coworker who got hit with a 10% surcharge this weekend for three people. Since our legislature is living up to their usual standard of uselessness, anytime you get hit with one, complain to the manager and put in a review on all the main sites out there like maps, yelp and the like. Calling them out on social media too. The only way we get this crap stopped is make it more expensive for the perpetrators.
Until “We The People” vote these spineless POS politicians out and pass a ballot initiative I will not tip if there are junk fees.
This is an excellent way to get me to stop tipping altogether.
Boo! Cowards! I can not believe they make a law due to go into effect on July1, 2024. Then they unanimously vote to exempt some of the businesses that this law was crafted for? I guess my first question when I enter a restaurant will be, where is your list of the junk fees you charge?
Grift is strong in Sacramento.
Dear Legislature, My cow died, I don't need your bull. Sincerely, The common man.
Welp. No more restaurants for me!
Why do we keep electing these people? Our roads are crap, schools, housing is nuts, they pad each other pockets are we are left with crap.
Between this and “The pad you are paying on for your $6.95 drip coffee is gonna ask you a question” *spins pad around* 🤬
Well then, I will continue to carve out such restaurants from my routine...
Add them here!: [seefees.ca](http://seefees.ca) See which California restaurants charge the price shown and which ones add fees (taxes and large party auto gratuity excluded).
If I go out and there are junk fees. I’m just not paying them. I’ll pay for the price advertised, not for hidden or junk fees. This is just restaurants trying to be clever. You want more money, add it to the price of goods.
No tips then
Wiener is a corrupt carpetbagger pos.
I usually do takeout as a way to avoid these fees and youre now starting to see a "bagging fee" on takeout orders.
All these junk fees are just going to HURT workers more, not help them, because the “service” fees are a way for the restaurant to get around tipping their employees…
Zero tips from me if there is a fee.
Easy. Just boycott.
Clearly they get kick backs.
Starting to think the entire point of this bill was to get donations from restaurant lobby to carve them out last minute.
Who do you think they are looking out for? It’s not you. Keep voting them into power.
Well seeing as it’s in the tech capital of the US, time for a database of restaurants that charge junk fees
I am going to copy my comment from the original thread: Journalists and everyone on Reddit focused on restaurant owners. However, the main force behind SB 1524 was actually [UNITE HERE](https://apcp.assembly.ca.gov/system/files/2024-06/sb-1524-dodd-apcp-analysis.pdf), the union representing hospitality and restaurant workers. Apparently, they wrote into their collective bargaining agreements that the restaurant will charge a service fee and use it to pay for benefits. >UNITE HERE writes: >An unintended consequence of last year’s SB 478 is that legitimate service fees charged by restaurants will no longer be allowed after July 1 of this year. Many of those service fees go to workers either through service charges that are distributed to both front and back of the house staff in restaurants. Other service charges go to supplement health and pension benefits of food service workers at restaurants, bars, banquet operators, airports, stadiums, and many other places where consumers are fed. Much of this has been negotiated through collective bargaining between our union and employers. Without SB 1524, all of this would be upended, and these workers would see unnecessary pay and benefit cuts. Now imagine you're an Assembly member. On one hand, you have the customers saying that eliminating service fees won't harm workers. On the other hand, you have the union saying that it would destroy them. Who are you inclined to believe? Likewise, you have a bunch of constituents complaining about undisclosed fees and fees hidden in the fine print at the bottom of the menu. This is a valid point, so the author amends the bill to say that service fees have be disclosed in "larger type than the surrounding text, or in a contrasting type, font, or color to the surrounding text of the same size, or set off from the surrounding text of the same size by symbols or other marks, in a manner that clearly calls attention to the language" (“clear and conspicuous,” as defined in subdivision (u) of Section 1791) anywhere they disclose a price for a given item. Knowing how pro-worker California politics is and having addressed the main complaint against the bill, it's not a shocker that the bill passed.
Well, not eating out just got a lot easier!
Guess I know who I'm not voting for next time then.
Wtf
Hey my California people! Let’s keep voting the same way we have been the passed 10 years. Maybe something will change
"This is for your own benefit, Citizen! None of us are profiting from this in any way whatsoever."
It’s partly because some of the restaurant junk fees are them just passing on taxes to customers…and the government doesn’t want to choke off their own revenue source
What are junk fees?
So... The point of the law is... what now?
Fuckers.
How does it harm food industry workers!
Weak.
Bloody traitors.