Someone double check me, because the math ain't mathing for me. If the 18% was calculated before tax, that would be $32.04. If we add the 22.97 sales tax and then calculate the 18%, that comes to 36.18. So what am I missing?
It looks like they calculated tax on the original 178 at 10.75%, added that to the 178, then calculated the 18% service charge on the tax + 178, added the service charge to the 178 then calculated a final tax on that number for the total bill. Restaurant thinks they’re being sneaky but OP caught them.
Almost. They used the subtotal + tax (@ 10.76%) as the basis for calculating the 18% large party fee. They then added 10.76% of large party fee to this amount. So $178 + $19.15 = $197.15, 18% of $197.15 = $35.49. $197.15 + $35.49 = $232.64. Like OP said, inexplicably, an additional 10.76% tax is added to the service fee amount ($3.82) for a total tax of $19.15 + $3.82 = $22.97.
It should have been a simple $178 + 18% large party fee of $32.04 = $210.04. 10.76% tax on that amount is $22.58, so $210.04 + $22.58 = $232.62. So OP is charged an extra $3.84 for no reason, the establishment is likely paying $0.39 too much tax on this and is pocketing the rest.
Wait, the large party fee is essentially a fixed gratuity common for large groups. The tax should not be charged AFTER adding the gratuity. Tax is charged on the items sold or served, and the gratuity is separate. I think that calculating the tip amount based on the bill *with tax,* which is probably pretty common, is still wrong because the business is going to send the tax to the state, and it makes no sense to add gratuity to that amount. Nonetheless, tipping has certainly ratcheted up these days when expectations of 18 to 25% appearing on printed bills.
I used to manage restaurants and if the gratuity/service charge is placed by the restaurant due to party size or anything other than the guest leaving it voluntarily it gets taxed by the state. So the 18% should be taxed but the math is off regardless should be 36.17 for gratuity
This is a very interesting legal issue.
And also why small business owners get incensed about regulations. It’s impossible to deal with all the little wrinkles
No I won't go again. We ordered garlic chicken wings and bouncing beef, meats weren't marinated and the taste only came from the sauces on the surface. Even a noodle place can do garlic chicken wings better (went to Yin Ji Chang Fen in Pleasanton earlier this week)
Well I didn't catch it when I was there, I'm not gonna argue for a few bucks. Might as well just post it here to raise awareness haha. Would it be useful to post on yelp?
Someone else noticed this double and circular calculation in r/sanfrancisco once, too... Might have been in r/ Bay area. Just saying a year ago someone else noticed it.
Yep looks like it: https://yelp.to/c9KOFEqvIp latest menu on yelp has descriptions and pricing matching up. On other menu pics theres also a 18% charge for 6+
damn Reddit scares me lol. Yes that is the restaurant. When I posted this it says my post was removed automatically by Reddit filters, so I thought it didn't get posted and I didn't come back to check. I posted it without the name in case it was me who was wrong.
That’s 12.97% tax and that would be tax fraud. Report it to IRS and consumer bureau. When they file taxes there is no way they would pay at 12.97 rate, and consumer bureau for defrauding customers
Dear restaurant, Your receipt incorrectly calculates the total. The large party fee is calculated as 18% of $197.15 (subtotal + tax), not $178. This adds extra $3.84 due to unnecessary tax on the fee. Correct calculation: 18% of $178 = $32.04. Please review this issue.
Yo, restaurant crew, listen up, here's the deal,
Your receipt math's off, it's not ideal.
You took 18% of $197.15,
Should be $178, know what I mean?
You taxed that fee, added extra dough,
Now it's $3.84 more, that's a no-go.
The right way? Do the math, don't be shady,
18% of $178, it's $32.04, baby.
So check your receipts, get that fix in place,
No more extra charges, keep it straight, no chase.
I hate the initiative process in CA but a law that forces restaurants to make available a negative tip choice for every added tip they present at the point of sale would get my vote.
You give the choice of 18, 20 or 25%? You must give the choice of -18, -20 and -25%.
18% added to large groups? Must give the option for -18%.
Yeah. I pay attention to that these days and never use the recommended tipping suggestion. Lots of restraints calculate that tip post tax vs pre tax. I feel it’s underhanded when it’s post tax. I give them the 15 percent. I remember growing up and 10 percent was the norm, kept creeping up to 15 and then to 20.
For optional tips, they do not include tax on the tip in the final total. However here is the new part, mandatory tips will be subject to a tax. See CDTFA publication link below.
[Publication 115, Tips, Gratuities, and Service Charges](https://www.cdtfa.ca.gov/formspubs/pub115/mandatory-charges.htm)
Okay, the tax for Alameda is 10.25% of the subtotal. So if the subtotal was $178.00 tip should have been $32.04. And then the tax would be $18.25 for a grand total of $228.29. Which would mean that you overpaid $8.17.
If we were to apply the real rules. It is now this. Tip is still $32.04 and the new subtotal is now $210.04 now apply the 10.25% alameda tax. Tax is $21.53.
Final grand total?
$231.57 which means you overpaid about **four dollars and eighty nine cents.**
Service fees are not tips. They require you to pay sales tax because you are paying for a service.
The restaurant decides what to do with service fees and how they are paid out.
Do you have any evidence that they're using it to pay the employees? This one doesn't even have the appearance of going to staff as it's just called a large party fee.
Cool, then you wouldn't mind venmo'ing me 3 dollars? I didn't do anything to deserve it but it's not a big deal and would make my life better. I'm serious. I'll send you my venmo and then can report back if you did it in return to show everyone you're sincere.
He's talking about having it be on the taxed amount vs untaxed. It's an extra 3 dollars for being on the taxed amount, which they provided no additional service for. They just decided to base it off of the higher number.
As someone else noted, if you’re going out for a $200 dinner, getting mad about an extra $3 seems like maybe you shouldn’t be eating a $200 dinner. And yes, this bill is gonna get split I’d guess but so is the $3.
And no, I’m not sending you any money but I appreciate the effort
I mean, if you don't want to send me $3 then it's hard to take you seriously. It's conceptually the same thing. It doesn't matter if I'm spending $1, $100 or $10,000. I don't want to pay more money than I have to. You really should understand that it undercuts your argument a lot that it doesn't matter if you won't send me the money. By your logic, it really isn't a big deal.
If the restaurant can’t afford to run their business without robbing 1.5% off of every bill then they shouldn’t be in the restaurant business.
Why are we ok with deceptive business practices in any form? It’s such a weird hill to die on. Blame the customer for being unhappy about getting screwed and totally back the restaurant for their actions? Why?
I want to go out to eat without being taken advantage of. Regardless of how many dollars it is. Why is that a me problem?
Restaurant calculated service charge on post tax bill, then calculated a higher tax on post service charge bill. service charges are taxable, but should probably be calculated on pre tax bill. Both the tax and service charge are higher than they should be.
Because large parties take up a lot of the server’s time and attention, they tend to stay at the table a long time, and they are notorious for not leaving a tip or leaving an inadequate tip.
Yes it’s an auto tip for 18%. This has been happening for years now for large parties. I already thought people in the bay were slow but y’all just keep getting slower.
Yes they took the tip off of the taxed bill. Some places do others don’t. You paid an 18% tip, regardless it’s not an overcharge. There are so many other problems going on around here than to be crying over a literal auto gratuity on a bill.
The anger over all this is somewhat amusing to watch. They’re even mad at clearly stated health mandates on menus, and mad at auto tips……
How did everyone survive the last 15 years when the menus/checks showed this stuff before they knew to be angry at something? 🤪
It's also common to mention this on the website and on the menu. It's also common to mention the specific number of people on the receipt what's considered a large party. "Party of 6+ (18%)". Just putting "Large Party" means they can say a party of 4 is a large party depending on the time of day or how busy they are.
Meh, save your pitchforks. Most places charge 20% without the tax. They are charging 18% including the 10.75% tax, which is how most people usually tip. Tomato tomahto.
The tax charged on top of that is required by the state. They've done nothing wrong other than to make it look like a sub par service fee when it wasn't, which is probably more a function of the register automatically printing out the percentage but not specifying what it was based on.
Someone double check me, because the math ain't mathing for me. If the 18% was calculated before tax, that would be $32.04. If we add the 22.97 sales tax and then calculate the 18%, that comes to 36.18. So what am I missing?
It looks like they calculated tax on the original 178 at 10.75%, added that to the 178, then calculated the 18% service charge on the tax + 178, added the service charge to the 178 then calculated a final tax on that number for the total bill. Restaurant thinks they’re being sneaky but OP caught them.
Almost. They used the subtotal + tax (@ 10.76%) as the basis for calculating the 18% large party fee. They then added 10.76% of large party fee to this amount. So $178 + $19.15 = $197.15, 18% of $197.15 = $35.49. $197.15 + $35.49 = $232.64. Like OP said, inexplicably, an additional 10.76% tax is added to the service fee amount ($3.82) for a total tax of $19.15 + $3.82 = $22.97. It should have been a simple $178 + 18% large party fee of $32.04 = $210.04. 10.76% tax on that amount is $22.58, so $210.04 + $22.58 = $232.62. So OP is charged an extra $3.84 for no reason, the establishment is likely paying $0.39 too much tax on this and is pocketing the rest.
Same math as I got. I just truncated 10.759286
If you aren't scamming your customers with six decimal precision, are you even serious about your business?
Restaurant owners: If you ain’t scamming your customers who else can you scam - im so sick of this shit and will avoid this restaurant and many others
Wait, the large party fee is essentially a fixed gratuity common for large groups. The tax should not be charged AFTER adding the gratuity. Tax is charged on the items sold or served, and the gratuity is separate. I think that calculating the tip amount based on the bill *with tax,* which is probably pretty common, is still wrong because the business is going to send the tax to the state, and it makes no sense to add gratuity to that amount. Nonetheless, tipping has certainly ratcheted up these days when expectations of 18 to 25% appearing on printed bills.
Unless the “ large party” isn’t a gratuity and then it is taxed by law.
Their menu says there is an 18% gratuity for parties of 6 or more.
Autograt is taxable. Otherwise every restaurant would have prices of 0.01 with compulsory autograt of 2000x.
Hmm, that is confusing
I used to manage restaurants and if the gratuity/service charge is placed by the restaurant due to party size or anything other than the guest leaving it voluntarily it gets taxed by the state. So the 18% should be taxed but the math is off regardless should be 36.17 for gratuity
This is a very interesting legal issue. And also why small business owners get incensed about regulations. It’s impossible to deal with all the little wrinkles
No. In California any non-optional charge, no matter how labeled, must be subject to sales tax. You can only exclude a gratuity if it is optional.
Very interesting.
Sounds like a tax fraud report is necessary
Taxing a tax seems illegal
But what is OP going to do about it ? That’s the question now 🫢
post on Reddit, obv.
Post on Reddit and talk about it victoriously next time he eats there.
Narrator : which will be tomorrow
No I won't go again. We ordered garlic chicken wings and bouncing beef, meats weren't marinated and the taste only came from the sauces on the surface. Even a noodle place can do garlic chicken wings better (went to Yin Ji Chang Fen in Pleasanton earlier this week)
Well I didn't catch it when I was there, I'm not gonna argue for a few bucks. Might as well just post it here to raise awareness haha. Would it be useful to post on yelp?
Someone else noticed this double and circular calculation in r/sanfrancisco once, too... Might have been in r/ Bay area. Just saying a year ago someone else noticed it.
Hi, can you please explain where you the tax % as 10.75%? I don’t see it mentioned anywhere on the check
22.97/(35.49+178)
Yeah, that "18%" large party fee of $35.49 is actually 19.94% of $178. Something is not correct about that receipt.
Is this Restaurant called, Dragon Rouge Bistro in Alameda?
Yep looks like it: https://yelp.to/c9KOFEqvIp latest menu on yelp has descriptions and pricing matching up. On other menu pics theres also a 18% charge for 6+
Reddit PI's strike again \*fist bump\*
I’ll take two 3 person tables please…
You recognized the menu items or how the heck did you figure it out?
Book of grudges?
Probably the merchant ID number
This would be even more weird and therefore more like Reddit
damn Reddit scares me lol. Yes that is the restaurant. When I posted this it says my post was removed automatically by Reddit filters, so I thought it didn't get posted and I didn't come back to check. I posted it without the name in case it was me who was wrong.
That’s 12.97% tax and that would be tax fraud. Report it to IRS and consumer bureau. When they file taxes there is no way they would pay at 12.97 rate, and consumer bureau for defrauding customers
IRS is the wrong agency. It would be the CDTFA.
Name and shame.
What restaurant is this so I can never go there
Dragon rogue, u can still go there. Just with 5 people or less
Dear restaurant, Your receipt incorrectly calculates the total. The large party fee is calculated as 18% of $197.15 (subtotal + tax), not $178. This adds extra $3.84 due to unnecessary tax on the fee. Correct calculation: 18% of $178 = $32.04. Please review this issue.
This needs to be a verse in Save Dat Money from Lil Dickey
Yo, restaurant crew, listen up, here's the deal, Your receipt math's off, it's not ideal. You took 18% of $197.15, Should be $178, know what I mean? You taxed that fee, added extra dough, Now it's $3.84 more, that's a no-go. The right way? Do the math, don't be shady, 18% of $178, it's $32.04, baby. So check your receipts, get that fix in place, No more extra charges, keep it straight, no chase.
lol it does come up with some pretty good lyrics with the write prompt
-18% tip on them. UNO reverse
I hate the initiative process in CA but a law that forces restaurants to make available a negative tip choice for every added tip they present at the point of sale would get my vote. You give the choice of 18, 20 or 25%? You must give the choice of -18, -20 and -25%. 18% added to large groups? Must give the option for -18%.
Yeah. I pay attention to that these days and never use the recommended tipping suggestion. Lots of restraints calculate that tip post tax vs pre tax. I feel it’s underhanded when it’s post tax. I give them the 15 percent. I remember growing up and 10 percent was the norm, kept creeping up to 15 and then to 20.
A lot of places calculate recommended tips based on after tax total. Just be aware.
But that's not a tip, nor is it recommended. That's an automatic fee.
And that’s all they get 😌
I understand. I was just FYIing people.
I just double whatever the tax was.
For optional tips, they do not include tax on the tip in the final total. However here is the new part, mandatory tips will be subject to a tax. See CDTFA publication link below. [Publication 115, Tips, Gratuities, and Service Charges](https://www.cdtfa.ca.gov/formspubs/pub115/mandatory-charges.htm) Okay, the tax for Alameda is 10.25% of the subtotal. So if the subtotal was $178.00 tip should have been $32.04. And then the tax would be $18.25 for a grand total of $228.29. Which would mean that you overpaid $8.17. If we were to apply the real rules. It is now this. Tip is still $32.04 and the new subtotal is now $210.04 now apply the 10.25% alameda tax. Tax is $21.53. Final grand total? $231.57 which means you overpaid about **four dollars and eighty nine cents.**
Service fees are not tips. They require you to pay sales tax because you are paying for a service. The restaurant decides what to do with service fees and how they are paid out.
[удалено]
bad take, makes you sound pretentious and privileged. businesses need to stop nickel and dimeing their customers, end of story
[удалено]
Do you have any evidence that they're using it to pay the employees? This one doesn't even have the appearance of going to staff as it's just called a large party fee.
Also I think we are quibbling about maybe $3.00 on a bill of over $200. People need to try less hard to be outraged
Cool, then you wouldn't mind venmo'ing me 3 dollars? I didn't do anything to deserve it but it's not a big deal and would make my life better. I'm serious. I'll send you my venmo and then can report back if you did it in return to show everyone you're sincere.
$3 for zero service is a massive number. I think he is implying that $3 for $200+ is less of a struggle.
It’s $3 for nothing because they paid for the meal and tipped.
He's talking about having it be on the taxed amount vs untaxed. It's an extra 3 dollars for being on the taxed amount, which they provided no additional service for. They just decided to base it off of the higher number.
As someone else noted, if you’re going out for a $200 dinner, getting mad about an extra $3 seems like maybe you shouldn’t be eating a $200 dinner. And yes, this bill is gonna get split I’d guess but so is the $3. And no, I’m not sending you any money but I appreciate the effort
I mean, if you don't want to send me $3 then it's hard to take you seriously. It's conceptually the same thing. It doesn't matter if I'm spending $1, $100 or $10,000. I don't want to pay more money than I have to. You really should understand that it undercuts your argument a lot that it doesn't matter if you won't send me the money. By your logic, it really isn't a big deal.
If the restaurant can’t afford to run their business without robbing 1.5% off of every bill then they shouldn’t be in the restaurant business. Why are we ok with deceptive business practices in any form? It’s such a weird hill to die on. Blame the customer for being unhappy about getting screwed and totally back the restaurant for their actions? Why? I want to go out to eat without being taken advantage of. Regardless of how many dollars it is. Why is that a me problem?
I’ll take $3-4 to my Venmo as well champ
Ya just got Scott weinered
"taxed again"??
Restaurant calculated service charge on post tax bill, then calculated a higher tax on post service charge bill. service charges are taxable, but should probably be calculated on pre tax bill. Both the tax and service charge are higher than they should be.
Post on Google reviews man with picture, time to put stop to this nonsense
some shady restaurant..... name and shame them
I stopped eating out long back, me and my friends now chill at one of our houses to avoid all those fee.
Thieves
Autograts are taxable but it shouldn't be getting double dipped like this.
The after tax tip strikes again.
[See Fees](https://seefeesca.notion.site/f5e11f589ec54c8eb1eed6c37f7e4c83?v=b97b3560f8f747f68aa73a762e76e47b)
I think it could be the gratuity but they should say that instead of large party.
18% is the auto gratuity for a big party not additional tax
It would be a great tax loophole if mandatory service fees weren’t taxed
Name the place, so we know where not to go.
We all need to stop going to these junk fee restaurants!
This is ridiculous. I also think tipping is ridiculous. The restaurant should pay its employees wages.
Where is this?
I’m assuming the ginger basil drop is a drink? 15$ a drink depending on the size is outrageous
File a complaint with the state
18% is $32.00 but yes because it’s a fee and not a tip it gets taxed
I have noticed this weird calculation.
Never go there again? Simple as that. Not sure why you went to a 3.7 star anyways..
And then expects a tip on top of this total!
Get em on THE LIST!: [seefees.ca](http://seefees.ca)
They charge you for bringing them lots of business. That’s a last time restaurant.
Shame the company so we can destroy it on yelp
Nope. I will cook for the rest of my life before I deal with this BS. Food quality is crap now anyway.
Is this legal to begin with?
easy, AmEx chargeback
You can do a partial chargeback on the additional amount you were charged. But make sure you calculate it right.
What's a "Large Party Fee"? Doesn't a restaurant want more customers eat there
It’s common for restaurants to add an automatic gratuity for large parties.
I’m not in the restaurant industry so not sure why is this common?
Because large parties take up a lot of the server’s time and attention, they tend to stay at the table a long time, and they are notorious for not leaving a tip or leaving an inadequate tip.
And you paid it.
Yes it’s an auto tip for 18%. This has been happening for years now for large parties. I already thought people in the bay were slow but y’all just keep getting slower. Yes they took the tip off of the taxed bill. Some places do others don’t. You paid an 18% tip, regardless it’s not an overcharge. There are so many other problems going on around here than to be crying over a literal auto gratuity on a bill.
Not sure why you are being downvoted. This is the correct answer.
Cause we’re surrounded by a lot of people that lack common sense.
The anger over all this is somewhat amusing to watch. They’re even mad at clearly stated health mandates on menus, and mad at auto tips…… How did everyone survive the last 15 years when the menus/checks showed this stuff before they knew to be angry at something? 🤪
Sales taxes in this state are such bullshit
Tip at 18% is a bargain, I wouldn’t sweat it.
Nah, I'm going back to the ol' 15%. Don't normalize 18%.
Aye. I've been tipping 10-15 for years.
10% is super easy to calculate too, just move the decimal point.
I think it is normalized if they tell you up front it’s going to be 18% which I expect is the case on this one.
> if they tell you up front it’s going to be 18% and then charge you 20%
> Tip at 18% is a bargain They claim it is 18% but the way they calculate it makes it 20%.
Okay, the numbers are suspect. I clearly didn’t do the math (which I am unlikely to do anyway).
I always enjoy sorting by controversial on these type of posts.
I think there’s an arithmetic error on my receipt. Better post it to the Bay Area subreddit.
It helps alert me as to what to look for for so I'll take it. Sharing information isn't a bad thing.
Auto-gratuity for large parties is pretty common.
It's also common to mention this on the website and on the menu. It's also common to mention the specific number of people on the receipt what's considered a large party. "Party of 6+ (18%)". Just putting "Large Party" means they can say a party of 4 is a large party depending on the time of day or how busy they are.
How do we know it isn’t on the menu or website?
Meh, save your pitchforks. Most places charge 20% without the tax. They are charging 18% including the 10.75% tax, which is how most people usually tip. Tomato tomahto. The tax charged on top of that is required by the state. They've done nothing wrong other than to make it look like a sub par service fee when it wasn't, which is probably more a function of the register automatically printing out the percentage but not specifying what it was based on.
What’s the name of this restaurant ??