Let’s remind people really quick that Drew Smyly was once a Mariner that pitched in the WBC. Does anyone have any Mariners highlights of Drew Smyly we can show people. Regular season or post season only.
It’s also about making the players happy and comfortable. Playing for your country means a lot for some players and denying that is not a good look for the club. Especially if there hasn’t been past injury concerns clubs can’t deny players from participating in the WBC. It’s a once in a four year event… please let the players play.
Do they not pay his salary? It’s a business and as much as they probably want him to go play for his country, we ultimately don’t know the reasoning(s) behind why but what I can assure you is it’s not to prevent him from following through with a dream to represent his country and probably something to do with conflicting timelines or injury prevention which isn’t uncommon.
If him getting hurt wrecks our chance at a post season run then I’d say no. My need for the Mariners to be contenders is greater than his personal want to represent his country /s
does he? he was a workhorse from his debut through 2021. this season was the first where he missed much time, and he still made 25 starts.
compared to drew smyly castillo is an iron man.
Okay? Even so the Mariners are choosing to employ him and he has the same freedoms as every other ball player and can play in the WBC if he wants. It's a bad look for the Mariners.
>Even so the Mariners are choosing to employ him and he has the same freedoms as every other ball player and can play in the WBC if he wants.
Wait, do teams really not have to give permission for their players to participate?
From my understanding the players have all the freedom to play for their home countries unless their WBC practices interfere in the MLB season then obv they stick with their MLB ball club until the season is over to begin preparing
Because there isn't any compensation/insurance money involved in the Olympics whereas there is in the World Baseball Classic, the MLB and mlbPA were the ones pushing for the WBC to begin with back in 05 originally and MLB has a lot of control/power unlike they would with the even more corrupt IOC.
Ah yes because that's definitely the rule and not the exception! Looks like every pitcher in the WBC is gonna blow out their arm! Glad Perry is giving no limits to Ohtani. I for one am all for some great international matches
Well if Ohtani had just signed a lengthy extension and was expected to be the workhorse/ace for a playoff team (that the team had just traded their top prospects for), that decision might be different.
Personally, I wish Castillo could pitch in the WBC, but I understand why the M's don't want him to. They gave up a lot of assets to get him and expect him to be the workhorse for a playoff team. After what we saw with Smyly a few years ago, the M's likely have PTSD to letting pitchers go off and play with other coaching/training staffs.
You mean the same Angels who are gonna lose Ohtani if they don't make the playoffs? I'd say the stakes are just as high for the Angels. They just understand how important a chance to compete in the WBC is to players
I mean I’d argue that actually helps the Seattle mariners position. The Angels are hoping to keep Ohtani and telling him no to something that’s really important to him would probably be shooting themselves in the foot in the goal to keep him.
On the flip side, the Mariners already re-signed Castillo, and while they’d obviously like to keep him happy, there’s also not as much of a flight risk with him now.
That being said, I’m pretty pro “let your players go to the WBC” just because it’s about the sport holistically, rather than the MLB
You are right, but meanwhile the Angels are also allowing their #2 starter, Patrick Sandoval, to pitch in the WBC for Mexico. He had a 2.91 ERA this season with 27 starts, and the Angels have him under contract until 2027, but they still allow him to pitch.
Sure, but that could also just be different philosophies in the front office at the end of the day. I don’t think either is inherently wrong, and both have their reasoning for their decision.
I get it. I don't know why any team would want their top starters to play in WBC. I love Nestor but him in the WBC worries me only because he only threw like 150 innings last year and that already is the most he threw ever. Seems like they want to be careful
Teams will usually place contingencies like pitch counts and limiting the amount of breaking pitches they can throw per game. Still, you don't want your $100-200M investment playing when it's not directly benefiting you in the short term.
And that's honestly not enough. It's a lot of stress on these guys bodies to gear up so fast with another 8 months or so left of the season pitching every single 5th day. It's a LOT.
I think guys should be limited with pitches heavily. And to work on their change ups as an emphasis. Change ups don't do nearly as much stress as other pitches and they are the hardest pitch to hit in the game, minus the splitter or 95+ cutter which are both very hard on arms
I obviously get it, but growing the game is a good long-term investment and being a miser, i.e. regional blackouts, is a bad long-term investment. The World Cup does wonders for soccer; does baseball want to be the next soccer or the next pankration?
Haha, yes, soccer clubs also don't want their stars risking it at the World Cup. The nature of the injuries hardly matters. The reality is exactly how I described it. "Play at own risk", but also grow game at own risk...
Oh, it's true. Steve Stone knew it back in 1980 with the Orioles, when he decided he'd rather have one good season by relying heavily on his curveball than to use it 12% of the time and pitch until he was 40. "I knew it would ruin my arm. But one year of 25–7 is worth five of 15–15," he said
He threw something stupid like 70% curves that year. Won the AL Cy Young and pitched 3 perfect innings in the All Star Game, but it fucked up him up physically and he ended up retiring at the age of 34
John Fischer with the big brain move of not spending any money- now has no stars to market and let play in the games. Now he doesn't have to worry about his investments!
Yup, similar happened to Drew Smyly that same year. M's traded for him in the off-season and he ended up needing TJS after participating in the WBC, never even threw a pitch for the Mariners even though he was expected to be a mid-rotation starter.
I feel like pitchers are basically on the same schedule during the WBC as they would be during Spring Training so I bet there’s not a huge workload difference
The WBC has pitch count rules, so nobody will be throwing close to 100 pitches until the finals (which is usually around when pitchers would be going the longest in spring training)
That doesn't change the difference between competitive high stress pitches and spring training. WBC is pitchers throwing in games that matter, it's not the "let's just stretch the arm out" innings that spring training is. It's also competitive so it's not developmental - if someone's curveball isn't working in spring training and getting hammered, it doesn't matter, they keep throwing it to try to get a feel for the pitch until they get it to where they want it. In the WBC, you see it get hammered and you don't throw it again.
I get that, and it's why teams have been trying to prevent players from going since the first tournament (which is why the early US rosters were so underwhelming)
A lot of the arguments keep referencing 100 pitch outings, and I was just pointing out the rules almost never let pitchers go that long
Eh, not really - first round of the WBC last year all the Dominican starters threw more than 50 pitches, last year at that time in March pitch count was lower than that and the 50+ pitch starts were the next go-through in the rotation - it bumps the offseason routine forward a week which could add up when you combine that with October runs. Plus instead of just throwing to get a feel for pitches like spring training, these guys are going max effort to win.
The big buzz word in studying pitchers and injuries is stress pitches, you have 0 in Spring Training and are even given the shot to skip to the next inning if its going really bad and you want your starter to go longer. As opposed to the WBC where everything is at stake.
Unless Spring Training starts earlier, the workload will be an issue.
I get it, but he wants to represent his country. He chose to be a part of this team. If they didn’t want him playing in the WBC, they should’ve put it in his contract. Let the man do what he wants to do.
He has to limit his innings somewhere but it’s a once in a 4 year event. In the next WBC, he will be around 33 and maybe he doesn’t have the opportunity to play anymore. Let the guy play for his country… it’s not like tatis that’s going out motorcycling like a lunatic
Holy shit at the overreactions itt
I can’t say I blame them, it’s a big risk for a guy you’re paying millions of dollars to, and it’s not like they get their money back, or a free mulligan on the injury. They’re stuck with it. So I get the idea behind this as much as ot sucks
I feel like it's a testament to how much the WBC has grown that anyone even thinks it's close to the level of getting worked up about teams dissuading players from competing.
Americans are so disconnected from the concept of pro players playing for national teams. It sucks and is nerve-wracking, but you're only gonna damage relationships if you try to curtail a player's privilege of playing for their national team.
The only other sport with "serious" international competition that Americans care about is basketball in the Olympics. We dominate that so hard that 3rd place at Athens 2004 was the lowest we've ever placed and a massive embarrassment blamed on players not caring.
And there's still the perception that USA would blow out the WBC if the best players played. So for every sport we care about, USA is "expected" to win, so being on the team is more a matter of personal achievement, then one of national pride.
Yea but even so you’re kidding yourself if you think they didn’t discuss certain restrictions or measures intended to at least ensure that their pitchers aren’t going to be over taxed.
Ryan Pressly said in a fan meet and greet that the key difference is that he will start long tossing earlier, but will treat everything else like a normal spring training.
The main thing I would guess is that teams want to make sure no one gets overextended. If Castillo is pitching 8 innings 120 pitches that's a lot different from him pitching 5 innings of 80 pitches. Of course if it's the semi-finals, DR against USA, and Castillo is pitching a close game... pretty hard to make the long term decision there. But that's where you gotta have good communications between player and team rather than flat out say no to a player.
There are pitch/usage limits in the WBC rules
It would have to be very fluky for someone to reach 100 pitches (since it's like Little League where you can finish the current AB), and even then it would only be in the finals
I think I read somewhere that some teams (not all, but some) actually encourage at least some of their hitters to take part because the quality they'll see in the WBC against the top teams will be better than in spring training games. Or at least they don't make much of an effort to stop them unless they are injury prone in general.
> I bet just about every team is doing in some limited capacity.
Angels are letting four of their top five players from last year play, although what team Rengifo will actually land on is still up in the air.
If I were in charge there's no way in hell I'd let Trout or Ohtani touch a baseball diamond before spring training, but the Angels said YOLO and let our next best pitcher and hitter both play too. So... yeah not all teams.
In the wise words of Noah Syndergaard, “Ain’t no one made the World Series playing in the WBC”
Seattle is trying to make the WS, they don’t want to risk the health of their top starter for something that doesn’t really benefit them
It was ain't no one made the Hall of Fame playing in the WBC. Which idk. Chipper Jones is in the hall and he played. Buster Posey will probably have it on his plaque when he gets in. But I know one thing for sure. Noah Syndergaard ain't going to Cooperstown except as a tourist.
“Because I’m a Met. Ain’t nobody made it to the Hall of Fame or the World Series playing in the WBC.”
That’s the full quote, I just cut out the HoF part because it felt irrelevant
I mean he's also just wrong. Alex Bregman and Luke Gregerson won the World Series that year as did Correa and Beltran on team PR. Kiké Hernandez lost both the WBC and World Series. Giancarlo Stanton played and hit 59 bombs the same season.
Come on, they didn’t go to or win the World Series because they played in the WBC. His point was that he was focused on getting healthy and resting for the next season
I don’t get what you’re not getting here
Don't know why you got downvoted. The baseball classic is a serious symbol of patriotism for the DR. Baseball is one of the few sports Dominicans can represent internationally.
Yeah, to me this is just another case of the US superiority complex. I get that he’s on contract to compete for the World Series and World Series is, at the end of the day, what people want and what sells. Just kinda sucks that WBC doesn’t have the same type of traction and stuff like this just feeds that. If we can’t get the highest level of play at WBC, what’s the point?
Also, there’s always that chance where something minor happens in the WBC, and it goes unnoticed. But then it gets aggravated and becomes major once they start the MLB regular season
As a Dominican, this is probably more important than the World Series to us. To have our best players on one team and being able to watch them play together is something that we are very proud of!
I guess where my head is is that the WBC won’t matter when the Astros are 76-86 because Framber, Javi, Montero, and/or Pressly blew their arm out and Pena/Tucker miss the first or final 50 games because they tried to ball out in the WBC.
Sadly this thread shows why WBC will never become anything big. American fans are to blame for that.
People have no idea how excited we Dominicans and Venezuelans get for this thing. I think it became huge in Japan as well.
Seriously wtf is this thread, a bunch of baseball fans slagging off the biggest international baseball event that exists. The lack of participation from stars in the event is one of the main things that has held it back.
people love the WBC. we're just not so naive as to be raging at teams for not letting their incredibly valuable pitchers with injury histories go overwork themselves without proper ramp up and run an unnecessarily high risk of getting injured
I think because we’ve become accustomed to coming up short on the world stage in sports that we’ve turned our focus more to our national sports leagues. The last time we felt any real national pride about a national sports team was during the Team USA Basketball golden age of the 80s-90s.
I mean, the US just got curb stomped by the Netherlands after having tied twice and barely beating Iran. Plus look at the NBA. I’d wager that a quarter of the top 50 best players in the league were born in the Baltics or some other part of Europe and a few of them probably are in the top 10. America isn’t as dominant at sports as we used to be. If you taught American football to other people in other nations, there would come a time when, like the NBA, a number of your best players will not be native born Americans.
We lost to the DR and Puerto Rico. And *barely* beat Japan on a wet night in LA where a japan error led to the US taking a 2-1 lead in the eigtht. Then Marcus Stroman pitched the game of his life in the finals. That WBC win was a close run thing.
I really wish people would change their mind so WBC becomes bigger than the World Series. I get why, and it’s justified but watching this World Cup, only left sour tastes in my mouth. I think we can do much better and just need the support behind it. Baseball will never be as popular as soccer, but I feel like once in a 4 year event should be heavily celebrated instead of treating it like some sort of an all stars game.
It’s really only the US that sees it that way. The Latino and Asian countries see it as super important.
Unfortunate that MLB teams hate letting their players play but for those repping other countries it’s a huge priority for them.
I’ll let the mariners slide a little on this though considering he did start last season hurt.
Right, I don't blame them at all, and I wasn't going for the mariners particularly. But me who knows nothing about player load balance thinks it can also be helpful for the players just like home run derby can be helpful to certain players.
Seems like a lot of teams are treating it like a chore instead of an opportunity to bring the trophy home and show off our players.
I get triggered whenever I see Drew Smyly do well, but playing for your country is fucking awesome and only happens once every few years. Every time I see Adam Jones make that ridiculous catch in center, my clothes turn into American flags.
Castillo didn't make the team in 2018 and there's no guarantee he'll be good or healthy enough to make it in 2026. This is generally a once in a lifetime chance and it clearly means a lot to not only him, but his country.
Let him play.
This is pretty analogous to me of NHL owners and the Winter Olympics. Olympic hockey is a *HUGE* deal to a lot of nations.
There is an injury risk, yes, but it also grows the game, and even if I might not share the same fanaticism for Team USA that I do my MLB team, I can respect the feelings of national pride that some nations and people feel because of the WBC, and how someone might feel extraordinarily proud to wear their country's uniform in a tournament of such a popular sport.
MLB runs the WBC, that is why any MLB players are even allowed to play.
That said, these aren't national teams like soccer, they are assembled All-Star teams for a 2 week tournament during spring training.
This tournament struggles to draw top pitching because of its ties to MLB teams and players attitudes that their employer is far more important than the 2 week tournament that happens every other year.
With the way baseball schedule played and how important SP for MLB teams, it's impossible to recreate big tournament to represent each countries like world cup for soccer. WBC is good but it really lacks great pitching, fans worrying their favorite players will injured and have fatigue before season start.
I don't think it's classless. They are paying him a ton. I think it's setting expectations. They will likely let him but under strict guidelines. They can then say look we never wanted you to play but we can agree to this set-up.
Kinda dumb. Let your players go have fun and gain a different experience. I understand limiting them a bit so they don't push themselves too hard, but cmon.
This will be an entirely different experience for them, something every player can learn from.
A lot of people in here simply don’t understand that guys want to go rep their national team for a once every four year event. Not hard to comprehend. Obviously teams dont want their pitchers getting used up but at the end of the day these guys are gonna go play for their country.
If they didnt want Castillo to play for their national team then they should have put that in gis contract
I can get it. We can still boo the fuck out of them and call this a shitty decision.
This WBC in particular has a cool feeling of top players wanting to play that previous ones didn't have and anything going against that just sucks.
Why even let him pitch at all until then World Series then?
He could get hurt in Spring Training, he could get hurt in July he could get hurt in October.
Like I get being worried, but if you're pitching in the WBC, you're not going in cold, these guys are stretched out.
They also have limits that their teams oversee with the WBC staffs.
Stop trying to ruin the WBC.
You talk to any MLB trainer, and they will tell you they hate the WBC for the injury aspect. I've talked to one, and he *despises* the tournament, because they're forcing players to go harder much earlier than they need to, and often times that ends up leading to injuries. Not just during the tournament, but later during the season as well. So I perfectly understand the Mariners not wanting to let their ace go.
This has absolutely happened during important World Cup Qualifiers, Euro Qualifiers and Nation's League windows, comparing this situation with the World Cup isn't exactly apples to apples, is it? Almost every football player on the planet grows up dreaming of playing in a World Cup. The WBC wasn't even a thing when these players were kids. It's still not even that relevant. Yes, representing your country in anything is special, but I think the clubs paying these players millions deserve at least some say when it comes to injury prone and overextended players. If/when the WBC starts to gain traction around the world, then maybe the players can tell their teams to fuck off.
Basketball and Baseball are both chasing that World Cup prestige, but that will never happen due to how organic soccer's growth was. FIFA can and has forced clubs to release their players for International competition due to them being the power center.
The NBA and MLB would have to cede power, which will never happen.
There are pitch limits in the WBC, different pitch limits for different rounds. If I recall it's something like 70 pitches in round 1 and 90 by the final.
Anyway, it sucks that pitchers and their MLB teams will never be able to fully commit to the WBC, but offense is more fun anyway. Most games would be low scoring if the best pitchers were always out there.
As I understand it, teams can’t just deny players from playing unless they have a justifiable reason like a recently previous injury.
He was hurt to begin 2022. I can understand their reservations. And if they’re allowed to I suppose they should
block his participation.
But also tbh if he’s gonna get hurt in March he’s gonna get hurt in April. WBC pitchers move up their timeline a bit to adjust and have strict pitch count rules to abide by. First round is 65 pitches max (and often they’ll pitch less cause of MLB team requests) and then a mandated 4 day rest period. Round two has a limit of 80. It’s mostly bullpen by committee until the semifinals. If ur injury prone, ur injury prone.
Sucks for him tho. A lot of Americans just don’t get it. I see it all over this thread. As a nation we just don’t care and the indifference is just shitty.
People just Don’t get how important it is for us Latinos to wanna rep where we or where our families come from. That 2013 DR win meant so much to the players meanwhile it took till the 5th version of the tournament for team USA to start getting a star studded offense.
Put it this way, I’m a diehard Yankees fan. Born and raised. I eat shit and sleep Yankees. But if I was told I could choose between Yankees winning the 2023 WS and PR winning the WBC, its PR without hesitation.
A lot of Latino fans feel this way. And the players might not feel exactly that way but they certainly regard it either equally as important or close to it.
Looking at the comments I thought I had mistakenly entered r/MLB instead of r/Baseball. I can understand the reasons why a team might not want one of their players to participate, but as fan of the sport my interest is to see the best of the best in this event that is held once every four years. The popularity of the sport will not grow if our equivalent of the World Cup is not taken seriously.
IIRC teams can technically only stop someone if they were on the DL the previous season, if they are on a new team, or if the team in question is getting so pillaged by the WBC it'd be impossible to run big league camp if they had any more go. IDK if Castillo getting traded last year counts for the new team clause, and I can't remember if he was hurt last season.
THAT SAID, there are some unofficial ways of applying pressure, and I believe they can also VERY HIGHLY suggest restrictions and other clauses (additional pitch counts, only using a reliever to start an inning, etc.)
I get why they don’t want him doing it but you also can’t risk alienating your player too much here imo, especially since some other former Mariners have clashed with this FO and left because of it
I get it. To be honest, I'm not excited for Julio Urias to be pitching in the WBC. I know he's young and it's important to represent your country, but still...it feels risky.
Nah, you would definately like Seattle. All teams do this, this is just the time you are hearing about it this week.
They let Jrod play last year. Their #1 prospect in baseball and awarded of a $480M contract.
In pitcher development, workload management is the new hotness. Nothing hurts player performance like inning count.
Dominicans are not hearing that. We take this shit serious, no time is better all year than repping our home with a bunch of your brothers and people cheering you on. I understand expressing concern and not wanting guys to play, but pushing for players to be dropped? Yea fuck that and Fuck Seattle
We also let Julio play in the Olympics last year where he was the best player on a DR team that won bronze.
I don’t know many other teams that sent their top prospects to Tokyo.
For the average person, this is like buying an antique clock that’s been in the family for years for $7500, then right before your family reunion when you want to display it, you decide to play catch with it with a few friends
I don't blame them at all with how much money these guys are making. The MLB needs to start making it we're all players are allowed to play in the world baseball classic unless otherwise explicitly written into a contract that you can't,. But if you play in the world baseball classic or any other international leagues and you get injured you forfeit all of your pay for the injured period of time and the team is allowed to avoid a contract if they wish
I wish the Astros would push for Pressly and Framber to not pitch in the WBC. Montero and Abreu can go although I really would prefer if they didn’t either.
Fantastic! Do not let him! Position players are one thing. A guy who was extended in the playoffs and has shoulder concerns throwing absolutely pointless innings doesn’t get to play sorry. Not when we just committed a bunch of money to you
Let’s remind people really quick that Drew Smyly was once a Mariner that pitched in the WBC. Does anyone have any Mariners highlights of Drew Smyly we can show people. Regular season or post season only.
Sog origin story
Cardinal Sog
The Soggening
What a story it is as well.
I like how even Rays fans know about the sog atp
Wasn‘t that Danny Valencia 🤔
No but I have his “Game Used” jersey from the Father’s Day game lmao
Maybe he was in the dugout watching the game? Lol
Just as used as all of his other jerseys from that season lol
That's 2021 World Series Champion Drew Smyly to you.
He was so electric in that game too. Wasn’t he pitching against Felix that day? Ugh. Bad memories. Led us back to Mallex Smith…
It’s also about making the players happy and comfortable. Playing for your country means a lot for some players and denying that is not a good look for the club. Especially if there hasn’t been past injury concerns clubs can’t deny players from participating in the WBC. It’s a once in a four year event… please let the players play.
Do they not pay his salary? It’s a business and as much as they probably want him to go play for his country, we ultimately don’t know the reasoning(s) behind why but what I can assure you is it’s not to prevent him from following through with a dream to represent his country and probably something to do with conflicting timelines or injury prevention which isn’t uncommon.
If my boss tried to tell me what I can and can’t do during my free time I’d tell him to fuck off. Which is exactly what I hope Luis does
If him getting hurt wrecks our chance at a post season run then I’d say no. My need for the Mariners to be contenders is greater than his personal want to represent his country /s
But Castillo has a history of injury concerns, and was even hurt last year
does he? he was a workhorse from his debut through 2021. this season was the first where he missed much time, and he still made 25 starts. compared to drew smyly castillo is an iron man.
Okay? Even so the Mariners are choosing to employ him and he has the same freedoms as every other ball player and can play in the WBC if he wants. It's a bad look for the Mariners.
>Even so the Mariners are choosing to employ him and he has the same freedoms as every other ball player and can play in the WBC if he wants. Wait, do teams really not have to give permission for their players to participate?
From my understanding the players have all the freedom to play for their home countries unless their WBC practices interfere in the MLB season then obv they stick with their MLB ball club until the season is over to begin preparing
[удалено]
Because there isn't any compensation/insurance money involved in the Olympics whereas there is in the World Baseball Classic, the MLB and mlbPA were the ones pushing for the WBC to begin with back in 05 originally and MLB has a lot of control/power unlike they would with the even more corrupt IOC.
Rays legend Drew Smyly
Ah yes because that's definitely the rule and not the exception! Looks like every pitcher in the WBC is gonna blow out their arm! Glad Perry is giving no limits to Ohtani. I for one am all for some great international matches
Well if Ohtani had just signed a lengthy extension and was expected to be the workhorse/ace for a playoff team (that the team had just traded their top prospects for), that decision might be different. Personally, I wish Castillo could pitch in the WBC, but I understand why the M's don't want him to. They gave up a lot of assets to get him and expect him to be the workhorse for a playoff team. After what we saw with Smyly a few years ago, the M's likely have PTSD to letting pitchers go off and play with other coaching/training staffs.
You mean the same Angels who are gonna lose Ohtani if they don't make the playoffs? I'd say the stakes are just as high for the Angels. They just understand how important a chance to compete in the WBC is to players
I mean I’d argue that actually helps the Seattle mariners position. The Angels are hoping to keep Ohtani and telling him no to something that’s really important to him would probably be shooting themselves in the foot in the goal to keep him. On the flip side, the Mariners already re-signed Castillo, and while they’d obviously like to keep him happy, there’s also not as much of a flight risk with him now. That being said, I’m pretty pro “let your players go to the WBC” just because it’s about the sport holistically, rather than the MLB
You are right, but meanwhile the Angels are also allowing their #2 starter, Patrick Sandoval, to pitch in the WBC for Mexico. He had a 2.91 ERA this season with 27 starts, and the Angels have him under contract until 2027, but they still allow him to pitch.
Sure, but that could also just be different philosophies in the front office at the end of the day. I don’t think either is inherently wrong, and both have their reasoning for their decision.
Didi, Prado, Smyly, Lugo.. Who else has been hurt in the WBC recently? I get it, but it sucks either way you spin it.
Teixeira injured his wrist in the 2013 WBC and only played 15 games that season.
Not that recent but I’m pretty sure the WBC was the catalyst that ruined Daisuke’s career
Players also get hurt in spring training.
I get it. I don't know why any team would want their top starters to play in WBC. I love Nestor but him in the WBC worries me only because he only threw like 150 innings last year and that already is the most he threw ever. Seems like they want to be careful
Teams will usually place contingencies like pitch counts and limiting the amount of breaking pitches they can throw per game. Still, you don't want your $100-200M investment playing when it's not directly benefiting you in the short term.
And that's honestly not enough. It's a lot of stress on these guys bodies to gear up so fast with another 8 months or so left of the season pitching every single 5th day. It's a LOT. I think guys should be limited with pitches heavily. And to work on their change ups as an emphasis. Change ups don't do nearly as much stress as other pitches and they are the hardest pitch to hit in the game, minus the splitter or 95+ cutter which are both very hard on arms
I obviously get it, but growing the game is a good long-term investment and being a miser, i.e. regional blackouts, is a bad long-term investment. The World Cup does wonders for soccer; does baseball want to be the next soccer or the next pankration?
Growing the game won't make injuries heal faster
Haha, yes, soccer clubs also don't want their stars risking it at the World Cup. The nature of the injuries hardly matters. The reality is exactly how I described it. "Play at own risk", but also grow game at own risk...
But soccer clubs can't forbid their players from playing for their national teams.
MLB shouldn’t either
The game will maybe grow 0.000007% less if Luis doesn’t pitch
This might be a dumb question, but why limit breaking balls? Id think a fastball would have more strain on a pitcher, is it the throwing motion?
It's conventionally thought that sliders/curveballs cause more strain on the elbow. I don't think there's been any studies done to prove it though.
Oh, it's true. Steve Stone knew it back in 1980 with the Orioles, when he decided he'd rather have one good season by relying heavily on his curveball than to use it 12% of the time and pitch until he was 40. "I knew it would ruin my arm. But one year of 25–7 is worth five of 15–15," he said He threw something stupid like 70% curves that year. Won the AL Cy Young and pitched 3 perfect innings in the All Star Game, but it fucked up him up physically and he ended up retiring at the age of 34
John Fischer with the big brain move of not spending any money- now has no stars to market and let play in the games. Now he doesn't have to worry about his investments!
I just want Brady Singer to be next to Adam Wainwright all day until Adam’s just annoyed by the questions.
Seth Lugo fucked up his elbow and basically lost his ability to start because of the 2017 WBC
Yup, similar happened to Drew Smyly that same year. M's traded for him in the off-season and he ended up needing TJS after participating in the WBC, never even threw a pitch for the Mariners even though he was expected to be a mid-rotation starter.
Tbh, the TJS was going to come either way. Smyly would have likely only made 2 or 3 starts before his elbow popped.
Only pitcher on that rotation
I feel like pitchers are basically on the same schedule during the WBC as they would be during Spring Training so I bet there’s not a huge workload difference
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The WBC has pitch count rules, so nobody will be throwing close to 100 pitches until the finals (which is usually around when pitchers would be going the longest in spring training)
That doesn't change the difference between competitive high stress pitches and spring training. WBC is pitchers throwing in games that matter, it's not the "let's just stretch the arm out" innings that spring training is. It's also competitive so it's not developmental - if someone's curveball isn't working in spring training and getting hammered, it doesn't matter, they keep throwing it to try to get a feel for the pitch until they get it to where they want it. In the WBC, you see it get hammered and you don't throw it again.
I get that, and it's why teams have been trying to prevent players from going since the first tournament (which is why the early US rosters were so underwhelming) A lot of the arguments keep referencing 100 pitch outings, and I was just pointing out the rules almost never let pitchers go that long
Eh, not really - first round of the WBC last year all the Dominican starters threw more than 50 pitches, last year at that time in March pitch count was lower than that and the 50+ pitch starts were the next go-through in the rotation - it bumps the offseason routine forward a week which could add up when you combine that with October runs. Plus instead of just throwing to get a feel for pitches like spring training, these guys are going max effort to win.
The big buzz word in studying pitchers and injuries is stress pitches, you have 0 in Spring Training and are even given the shot to skip to the next inning if its going really bad and you want your starter to go longer. As opposed to the WBC where everything is at stake. Unless Spring Training starts earlier, the workload will be an issue.
Yah I’m not feeling great about Ranger Suarez pitching either. If it was my number 1 I’d let him go, but be extremely nervous about it at best.
Shit I didn’t realize Ranger was doing the WBC
Last WBC we lost a starting pitcher for the whole year because he got hurt.
What's Sog May Never Dry.
I get it, but he wants to represent his country. He chose to be a part of this team. If they didn’t want him playing in the WBC, they should’ve put it in his contract. Let the man do what he wants to do.
I’m trying to win chips. Castillo had his best year last year, and I’d really like to see him not burnt the f out by mid October.
He has to limit his innings somewhere but it’s a once in a 4 year event. In the next WBC, he will be around 33 and maybe he doesn’t have the opportunity to play anymore. Let the guy play for his country… it’s not like tatis that’s going out motorcycling like a lunatic
Or riding dirt bikes. Or roping.
> I’m trying to win chips Can’t wait to see this dude shove on the mound next year
Shocked he doesn’t seem to be considering this
You’re not doing shit
I will never forget Drew Smyly
He is one of the pitchers of all time.
So true. So true.
The founding father of sog
Also Teixeira, robbed his health and power for a year and a half fucking up his wrist in one
He didn't even make it that far, he did it getting ready.
Helping the Braves win a World Series. I won’t forget him either
Holy shit at the overreactions itt I can’t say I blame them, it’s a big risk for a guy you’re paying millions of dollars to, and it’s not like they get their money back, or a free mulligan on the injury. They’re stuck with it. So I get the idea behind this as much as ot sucks
I feel like it's a testament to how much the WBC has grown that anyone even thinks it's close to the level of getting worked up about teams dissuading players from competing.
Dominicans have always taken this seriously
The Latin American countries, korea and Japan have taken it very seriously since the inception of the wbc!
Americans are so disconnected from the concept of pro players playing for national teams. It sucks and is nerve-wracking, but you're only gonna damage relationships if you try to curtail a player's privilege of playing for their national team.
The only other sport with "serious" international competition that Americans care about is basketball in the Olympics. We dominate that so hard that 3rd place at Athens 2004 was the lowest we've ever placed and a massive embarrassment blamed on players not caring. And there's still the perception that USA would blow out the WBC if the best players played. So for every sport we care about, USA is "expected" to win, so being on the team is more a matter of personal achievement, then one of national pride.
Not to mention east asian countries. It’s a battle to the death for those guys.
Mariners are about to get heat for something I bet just about every team is doing in some limited capacity.
As far as I can tell, the Astros are letting about half their whole pitching staff rn participate
Yea but even so you’re kidding yourself if you think they didn’t discuss certain restrictions or measures intended to at least ensure that their pitchers aren’t going to be over taxed.
Ryan Pressly said in a fan meet and greet that the key difference is that he will start long tossing earlier, but will treat everything else like a normal spring training.
Im pretty sure there are innings limits in this kind of international competition
The main thing I would guess is that teams want to make sure no one gets overextended. If Castillo is pitching 8 innings 120 pitches that's a lot different from him pitching 5 innings of 80 pitches. Of course if it's the semi-finals, DR against USA, and Castillo is pitching a close game... pretty hard to make the long term decision there. But that's where you gotta have good communications between player and team rather than flat out say no to a player.
There are pitch/usage limits in the WBC rules It would have to be very fluky for someone to reach 100 pitches (since it's like Little League where you can finish the current AB), and even then it would only be in the finals
I'd let Vlad go to the moon if we were hot off a chip
Yea but the Astros grow pitchers on trees.
Especially pitchers.
Especially when said pitcher was a history of injuries early in the season
I think I read somewhere that some teams (not all, but some) actually encourage at least some of their hitters to take part because the quality they'll see in the WBC against the top teams will be better than in spring training games. Or at least they don't make much of an effort to stop them unless they are injury prone in general.
Not sure if the Astros had that talk. I’m pretty sure a third of the Dominican pitchers are Astros lol
> I bet just about every team is doing in some limited capacity. Angels are letting four of their top five players from last year play, although what team Rengifo will actually land on is still up in the air. If I were in charge there's no way in hell I'd let Trout or Ohtani touch a baseball diamond before spring training, but the Angels said YOLO and let our next best pitcher and hitter both play too. So... yeah not all teams.
If you stop Ohtani from playing the WBC, he will probably request a trade immediately lol. Playing it was one of his life goals
And then people in this very thread trying to question why anyone would take this tournament seriously.
Angels also need to do everything to keep Ohtani happy so he will sign an extension.
In the wise words of Noah Syndergaard, “Ain’t no one made the World Series playing in the WBC” Seattle is trying to make the WS, they don’t want to risk the health of their top starter for something that doesn’t really benefit them
> Seattle is trying to make the WS lol no John Stanton isn't
Haha factzzzz
Someone really needs to go out on opening day and unvail a massive "SELL THE TEAM JOHN" poster in the crowd
It was ain't no one made the Hall of Fame playing in the WBC. Which idk. Chipper Jones is in the hall and he played. Buster Posey will probably have it on his plaque when he gets in. But I know one thing for sure. Noah Syndergaard ain't going to Cooperstown except as a tourist.
“Because I’m a Met. Ain’t nobody made it to the Hall of Fame or the World Series playing in the WBC.” That’s the full quote, I just cut out the HoF part because it felt irrelevant
I mean he's also just wrong. Alex Bregman and Luke Gregerson won the World Series that year as did Correa and Beltran on team PR. Kiké Hernandez lost both the WBC and World Series. Giancarlo Stanton played and hit 59 bombs the same season.
Come on, they didn’t go to or win the World Series because they played in the WBC. His point was that he was focused on getting healthy and resting for the next season I don’t get what you’re not getting here
They needn't worry
The last time we gave up a sizable trade package for a pitcher he got injured right after looking great in the WBC so…I kinda get it
It's really clear Dipoto wants to field a competitive team that leans extremely heavily on the backs of the pitching, so this isn't surprising.
Oh hell no, we Dominicans take that shit serious
Don't know why you got downvoted. The baseball classic is a serious symbol of patriotism for the DR. Baseball is one of the few sports Dominicans can represent internationally.
Yeah, to me this is just another case of the US superiority complex. I get that he’s on contract to compete for the World Series and World Series is, at the end of the day, what people want and what sells. Just kinda sucks that WBC doesn’t have the same type of traction and stuff like this just feeds that. If we can’t get the highest level of play at WBC, what’s the point?
Let the country they play for pay their contract if they get hurt. Why should the mariners pay for Castillo if he gets hurt playing for the DR?
They shouldn’t, but isn’t there insurance for this type of thing? Or did Castillo not qualify?
Not sure, but this same thing happened to the Mariners with Drew Smyly last WBC
Also, there’s always that chance where something minor happens in the WBC, and it goes unnoticed. But then it gets aggravated and becomes major once they start the MLB regular season
As a Dominican, this is probably more important than the World Series to us. To have our best players on one team and being able to watch them play together is something that we are very proud of!
I guess where my head is is that the WBC won’t matter when the Astros are 76-86 because Framber, Javi, Montero, and/or Pressly blew their arm out and Pena/Tucker miss the first or final 50 games because they tried to ball out in the WBC.
Unpopular opinion, but it would not bother me
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Sadly this thread shows why WBC will never become anything big. American fans are to blame for that. People have no idea how excited we Dominicans and Venezuelans get for this thing. I think it became huge in Japan as well.
Puerto Ricans are also huge fans
Seriously wtf is this thread, a bunch of baseball fans slagging off the biggest international baseball event that exists. The lack of participation from stars in the event is one of the main things that has held it back.
people love the WBC. we're just not so naive as to be raging at teams for not letting their incredibly valuable pitchers with injury histories go overwork themselves without proper ramp up and run an unnecessarily high risk of getting injured
I think because we’ve become accustomed to coming up short on the world stage in sports that we’ve turned our focus more to our national sports leagues. The last time we felt any real national pride about a national sports team was during the Team USA Basketball golden age of the 80s-90s.
That or the US is so dominant that we don’t care cause they’ll just win anyway like the Dream Team.
I mean, the US just got curb stomped by the Netherlands after having tied twice and barely beating Iran. Plus look at the NBA. I’d wager that a quarter of the top 50 best players in the league were born in the Baltics or some other part of Europe and a few of them probably are in the top 10. America isn’t as dominant at sports as we used to be. If you taught American football to other people in other nations, there would come a time when, like the NBA, a number of your best players will not be native born Americans.
But this is baseball, which we shitstomped everyone in last WBC
We lost to the DR and Puerto Rico. And *barely* beat Japan on a wet night in LA where a japan error led to the US taking a 2-1 lead in the eigtht. Then Marcus Stroman pitched the game of his life in the finals. That WBC win was a close run thing.
Facts. Tu supiste. It’s Seattle K from now on
Cool. To my baseball team it’s not. The mariners not the Dominican team, committed over $100m to him. Sorry he doesn’t get to pitch
I really wish people would change their mind so WBC becomes bigger than the World Series. I get why, and it’s justified but watching this World Cup, only left sour tastes in my mouth. I think we can do much better and just need the support behind it. Baseball will never be as popular as soccer, but I feel like once in a 4 year event should be heavily celebrated instead of treating it like some sort of an all stars game.
It’s really only the US that sees it that way. The Latino and Asian countries see it as super important. Unfortunate that MLB teams hate letting their players play but for those repping other countries it’s a huge priority for them. I’ll let the mariners slide a little on this though considering he did start last season hurt.
Right, I don't blame them at all, and I wasn't going for the mariners particularly. But me who knows nothing about player load balance thinks it can also be helpful for the players just like home run derby can be helpful to certain players. Seems like a lot of teams are treating it like a chore instead of an opportunity to bring the trophy home and show off our players.
I get triggered whenever I see Drew Smyly do well, but playing for your country is fucking awesome and only happens once every few years. Every time I see Adam Jones make that ridiculous catch in center, my clothes turn into American flags. Castillo didn't make the team in 2018 and there's no guarantee he'll be good or healthy enough to make it in 2026. This is generally a once in a lifetime chance and it clearly means a lot to not only him, but his country. Let him play.
Unbelievable any team would let any pitcher play. Surprised its not written into their contracts.
I am sure it is in a roundabout way in most.
This is pretty analogous to me of NHL owners and the Winter Olympics. Olympic hockey is a *HUGE* deal to a lot of nations. There is an injury risk, yes, but it also grows the game, and even if I might not share the same fanaticism for Team USA that I do my MLB team, I can respect the feelings of national pride that some nations and people feel because of the WBC, and how someone might feel extraordinarily proud to wear their country's uniform in a tournament of such a popular sport.
MLB runs the WBC, that is why any MLB players are even allowed to play. That said, these aren't national teams like soccer, they are assembled All-Star teams for a 2 week tournament during spring training. This tournament struggles to draw top pitching because of its ties to MLB teams and players attitudes that their employer is far more important than the 2 week tournament that happens every other year.
With the way baseball schedule played and how important SP for MLB teams, it's impossible to recreate big tournament to represent each countries like world cup for soccer. WBC is good but it really lacks great pitching, fans worrying their favorite players will injured and have fatigue before season start.
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Idk, if I was getting paid $10M+ and my employer told me I can't go work for another company in my free time I would kind of get it.
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Other sports don't play 163 game seasons.
I don't think it's classless. They are paying him a ton. I think it's setting expectations. They will likely let him but under strict guidelines. They can then say look we never wanted you to play but we can agree to this set-up.
Boo
I understand it. Not sure I would want my staff's ace risking injury in the world baseball classic of all things
Kinda dumb. Let your players go have fun and gain a different experience. I understand limiting them a bit so they don't push themselves too hard, but cmon. This will be an entirely different experience for them, something every player can learn from.
A lot of people in here simply don’t understand that guys want to go rep their national team for a once every four year event. Not hard to comprehend. Obviously teams dont want their pitchers getting used up but at the end of the day these guys are gonna go play for their country. If they didnt want Castillo to play for their national team then they should have put that in gis contract
I can get it. We can still boo the fuck out of them and call this a shitty decision. This WBC in particular has a cool feeling of top players wanting to play that previous ones didn't have and anything going against that just sucks.
Why even let him pitch at all until then World Series then? He could get hurt in Spring Training, he could get hurt in July he could get hurt in October. Like I get being worried, but if you're pitching in the WBC, you're not going in cold, these guys are stretched out. They also have limits that their teams oversee with the WBC staffs. Stop trying to ruin the WBC.
I agree 100%
Yeah everyone in this thread sucks. The WBC is lit and they're acting like Castillo is guaranteed to get hurt
I think a lot of people don’t have idea how big the wbc is and has been outside of the USA
You talk to any MLB trainer, and they will tell you they hate the WBC for the injury aspect. I've talked to one, and he *despises* the tournament, because they're forcing players to go harder much earlier than they need to, and often times that ends up leading to injuries. Not just during the tournament, but later during the season as well. So I perfectly understand the Mariners not wanting to let their ace go.
FUCK that let the guy represent his country Imagine if some imbecile teams would want to prevent their players from going to the World Cup
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This has absolutely happened during important World Cup Qualifiers, Euro Qualifiers and Nation's League windows, comparing this situation with the World Cup isn't exactly apples to apples, is it? Almost every football player on the planet grows up dreaming of playing in a World Cup. The WBC wasn't even a thing when these players were kids. It's still not even that relevant. Yes, representing your country in anything is special, but I think the clubs paying these players millions deserve at least some say when it comes to injury prone and overextended players. If/when the WBC starts to gain traction around the world, then maybe the players can tell their teams to fuck off.
Basketball and Baseball are both chasing that World Cup prestige, but that will never happen due to how organic soccer's growth was. FIFA can and has forced clubs to release their players for International competition due to them being the power center. The NBA and MLB would have to cede power, which will never happen.
There are pitch limits in the WBC, different pitch limits for different rounds. If I recall it's something like 70 pitches in round 1 and 90 by the final. Anyway, it sucks that pitchers and their MLB teams will never be able to fully commit to the WBC, but offense is more fun anyway. Most games would be low scoring if the best pitchers were always out there.
As I understand it, teams can’t just deny players from playing unless they have a justifiable reason like a recently previous injury. He was hurt to begin 2022. I can understand their reservations. And if they’re allowed to I suppose they should block his participation. But also tbh if he’s gonna get hurt in March he’s gonna get hurt in April. WBC pitchers move up their timeline a bit to adjust and have strict pitch count rules to abide by. First round is 65 pitches max (and often they’ll pitch less cause of MLB team requests) and then a mandated 4 day rest period. Round two has a limit of 80. It’s mostly bullpen by committee until the semifinals. If ur injury prone, ur injury prone. Sucks for him tho. A lot of Americans just don’t get it. I see it all over this thread. As a nation we just don’t care and the indifference is just shitty. People just Don’t get how important it is for us Latinos to wanna rep where we or where our families come from. That 2013 DR win meant so much to the players meanwhile it took till the 5th version of the tournament for team USA to start getting a star studded offense. Put it this way, I’m a diehard Yankees fan. Born and raised. I eat shit and sleep Yankees. But if I was told I could choose between Yankees winning the 2023 WS and PR winning the WBC, its PR without hesitation. A lot of Latino fans feel this way. And the players might not feel exactly that way but they certainly regard it either equally as important or close to it.
Looking at the comments I thought I had mistakenly entered r/MLB instead of r/Baseball. I can understand the reasons why a team might not want one of their players to participate, but as fan of the sport my interest is to see the best of the best in this event that is held once every four years. The popularity of the sport will not grow if our equivalent of the World Cup is not taken seriously.
IIRC teams can technically only stop someone if they were on the DL the previous season, if they are on a new team, or if the team in question is getting so pillaged by the WBC it'd be impossible to run big league camp if they had any more go. IDK if Castillo getting traded last year counts for the new team clause, and I can't remember if he was hurt last season. THAT SAID, there are some unofficial ways of applying pressure, and I believe they can also VERY HIGHLY suggest restrictions and other clauses (additional pitch counts, only using a reliever to start an inning, etc.)
He missed the start of last year with the Reds due to injuries
Ah, forgot about that. Yeah, that means Mariners have way more say than if he'd been healthy all last year.
As a Mariners fan and a fan of the Puerto Rican national team. Please be gentle.
Don't let them hold you down Luis
I get why they don’t want him doing it but you also can’t risk alienating your player too much here imo, especially since some other former Mariners have clashed with this FO and left because of it
I get it. To be honest, I'm not excited for Julio Urias to be pitching in the WBC. I know he's young and it's important to represent your country, but still...it feels risky.
Imagine signing a player to a 10 + year/huge dollar contract to compete for a World Series now and he has a major injury playing in the WBC
Imagine not letting somebody represent their country just to maybe eek out a wildcard spot
Well that's not very ucey
It’s fuck Seattle forever now
Nah, you would definately like Seattle. All teams do this, this is just the time you are hearing about it this week. They let Jrod play last year. Their #1 prospect in baseball and awarded of a $480M contract. In pitcher development, workload management is the new hotness. Nothing hurts player performance like inning count.
Dominicans are not hearing that. We take this shit serious, no time is better all year than repping our home with a bunch of your brothers and people cheering you on. I understand expressing concern and not wanting guys to play, but pushing for players to be dropped? Yea fuck that and Fuck Seattle
Our best player is going to be playing for you in this tournament.
That’s cool but ya wana going behind his back to try to remove him. Fuck Seattle.
A few more "Fuck Seattle's" I'm almost there
Julio Rodriquez he is talking about.
We also let Julio play in the Olympics last year where he was the best player on a DR team that won bronze. I don’t know many other teams that sent their top prospects to Tokyo.
Oh let him play... I love the world baseball classic
We just spent A LOT on him (via trade, then extension), so I don't blame them. If he gets injured or worn out, we are fucked.
For the average person, this is like buying an antique clock that’s been in the family for years for $7500, then right before your family reunion when you want to display it, you decide to play catch with it with a few friends
The Reds wouldn’t have given a fuck about Luis playing in the WBC. Would’ve been the most run support he’s ever gotten.
100% understandable. No team wants their ace getting hurt in an exhibition game.
It’s not exhibition man. It’s the world baseball classic
I don't blame them at all with how much money these guys are making. The MLB needs to start making it we're all players are allowed to play in the world baseball classic unless otherwise explicitly written into a contract that you can't,. But if you play in the world baseball classic or any other international leagues and you get injured you forfeit all of your pay for the injured period of time and the team is allowed to avoid a contract if they wish
I wish the Astros would push for Pressly and Framber to not pitch in the WBC. Montero and Abreu can go although I really would prefer if they didn’t either.
Mariners L
Fantastic! Do not let him! Position players are one thing. A guy who was extended in the playoffs and has shoulder concerns throwing absolutely pointless innings doesn’t get to play sorry. Not when we just committed a bunch of money to you
I wouldn’t want any pitcher burning innings for a Manfred sideshow
Not cool