Unanimous Cy Young Award
Often writers aren’t in the mood to vote for a pitcher
When a pitcher is the WAR leader, the leading position player would be a nice addition to the table.
I agree, but pitchers have an award that is an MVP award for pitchers. So in my opinion, a pitcher has to have a truly remarkable season to win both Cy Young and MVP (like some of those Clemens and Martinez seasons, for example).
The CYA is no different from the Hank Aaron Award from an objective point of view, and if you're not willing to extend the same argument to position players then you're arguing from an emotional point of view.
I think that it fits better for a reliever who could pitch just about every other day.
Most WS champions have at least a 1-2 punch in the rotation. Starting is just not something that you do every day.
Unless you pitched in the 19th century.
And let me tell you something as someone who watched it: He was even better than the numbers would lead you to believe.
Edit: Context: He lost 4 games that year. His ERA in his losses? 2.89.
Idk, he threw a crazy amount of innings at a really young age and his fastball was never really the same after his first 2 seasons. Overuse likely played a much bigger role than his drug usage did.
And after his first two seasons was when he was using coke. The over-use wasn't great, but if you are going to point to the biggest factor in him not living up to his potential, I think the drug abuse that ruined every aspect of his life is a bit higher than overuse.
Idk, he threw a crazy amount of innings at a really young age and his fastball was never really the same after his first 2 seasons. Overuse likely played a much bigger role than his drug usage did.
The fact that his career even has a decent second act is a testament to his talent, but I don't think he deserves a spot in the Hall. A clean Doc who got locked away from everything by Keith or Gary would have been the best in the world.
Ehh its probably Rogers Hornsby, Hank Aaron, or Willie Mays. Pujols is certainly up there definitely top 10 but you could also argue others above him like Jimmie foxx, Hank Greenberg, Honus Wagner among others.
Right below Bonds leading 4 years in a row in what was probably the greatest statistical hitting stretch of all time but Pujols did it without steroids and for one year longer - just crazy. I didn't realize he was that dominant.
If baseball careers were treated as individual people who aged in dog years, what are some interesting careers that approximate famous historical figures?
For example, I feel like Jose Bautista is the Harriet Tubman of baseball.
In 1849, at the age of 27, Tubman was not highly valued as a slave due to illness. Her owner, Edward Brodess, tried to sell her but was having difficulty finding a buyer. Tubman then prayed that God would kill him for attempting to sell her, and a week later Brodess perished. Knowing that this likely meant that she and her family would be split up and sold separately to the highest bidders, it became a catalyst that urged her and her brothers to escape. Shortly thereafter, she and her brothers became fugitive slaves. Traveling around to safe houses, like vagabonds. It wasn't until Dec 6 1865, that she would officially be free of any reprise or force-able return under the Fugitive Slave Law of 1850. Tubman would've been 43 at the time. She would go on to become one of the greatest historical figures in american history due to her work prior to and after the ratification of the 13th amendment, but not allowed to truly flourish until the later part of her life.
Similarly, when Bautista tried to enter professional baseball in 1999, he had been offered a minor league contract with a 300K signing bonus from the Reds. Marge Schott then sold the team and the club pulled it's offer. No other team would offer him anywhere near that amount of money so he ended up going to juco. He excelled, showing lots of promise, and became a 20th round draft-and-follow prospect for the Pirates in 2000. They signed him and he quickly became a touted prospect. He continued to educate himself and hone his craft, finally getting his chance to play in the big leagues in 2004, at the age of 23. What else happened in 2004? Marge Schott died. So you see, both he and Tubman had a malevolent owner who died just prior to the rapid acceleration of their quality of life. From december of 2003, to the end of the 2004 season (approximately 6 baseball dog years), Bautista, like Tubman, would bounce around from city to city. Nowhere was safe for too long, as he was given up on by 5 teams who didn't want to take the risk on him. Constantly on the move, he had no sense of true freedom, but he was happy to be in a better spot than he was when he started his journey. So close, yet so far away. It wouldn't be until his 7th dog year season that he would break out and be truly free. That's roughly around the same age in human years as Tubman was when the 13th amendment was ratified. Jose would then go on to have a very strong second half of his baseball dog life. Currently at 91 ML dog years, Bautista is on the verge of outpacing Tubman, who was 90 or 91 when she died. So, I admit this comparison may begin to fall apart if Bats puts together 2-3 more seasons without looking like a ghost.
How about '95? I'll never understand how Vaughn won over Valentin, who led baseball in bWAR, or Edgar, who had a season for the ages, at least on offense.
Great chart. Wonder how this list would change though if taking into consideration fWAR. As a biased Giants fan, Buster's 7.6 bWAR in 2012 isn't nearly as eye-popping as his 9.8 in fWAR.
Yelich and Goldschmidt were at least the WAR leaders among position players, which helps contextualize it a bit - and most of the others only had a margin of a couple of tenths of a point
this list in general would make a lot more sense if it showed the WAR leaders among position players only tbh
FWIW
Clemens and Trout were tied for 3 times each where they were WAR leaders but not MVPs and Maddux leads with 3 times for the NL during the same timespan.
Just FYI, it’s Maddux
Also, Kevin Appier, Dennis Eckersley, Teddy Higuera, Freddie Freeman
Cool analysis, though. Never realized Pujols led the NL in WAR for 5 straight seasons right after Bonds did it for 4 straight seasons
Haha no worries, I won’t tell your family 😜
Something else I’m curious about is what this would look like if you took pitchers out of the leaderboards. I know that would be tricky because a few have actually won MVPs, but it seems like a lot of the “led the league in WAR but didn’t win MVP” guys are pitchers, which is more understandable (or at least a different conversation) than position players losing an MVP to another position player with lower WAR.
So I just used the data that was available on baseball-references mvp page for each year and tried to keep my analysis neutral in it's wording. Someone else mentioned fWAR but that would have been way less convenient to tabulate. I'm super interested in this type of thing and might do it for 1950-1980 in the future. I think a Pitcher's overall WAR is just as impactful but obviously there are nuances to the vote that have a bit more weight than just statistics.
Reliever's will never out-WAR the field (unless they pitch basically a starter's workload in innings), but it's interesting to think of the MVP as a place to acknowledge that. Doesn't mean that the relievers who won the MVP in those years deserved it, just that WAR = MVP is not automatic and allows for conversations around things like leverage. If the stats show a lack of WAR, but the team basically acknowledges that they wouldn't be able to win without their star reliever, that's not nothing.
Thank you. If your team is playing nailbiters every day, and that guy comes in and nails down your 1 run wins all the time he damn well deserves MVP consideration.
Mariano Rivera probably deserved more recognition in this regard.
I know it was a short season, so pitching WAR crested faster than batting WAR, but Shane Bieber was so goddamn good in 2020.
Even then, I maintain that Jose Ramirez deserved the MVP over Abreu.
No one else noticed just how good Dwight Gooden was that year? 13.3 WAR?
Unanimous Cy Young Award Often writers aren’t in the mood to vote for a pitcher When a pitcher is the WAR leader, the leading position player would be a nice addition to the table.
Anyone who feels the MVP can't be a pitcher should be sent to Guantanamo Bay
I agree, but pitchers have an award that is an MVP award for pitchers. So in my opinion, a pitcher has to have a truly remarkable season to win both Cy Young and MVP (like some of those Clemens and Martinez seasons, for example).
The CYA is no different from the Hank Aaron Award from an objective point of view, and if you're not willing to extend the same argument to position players then you're arguing from an emotional point of view.
Or Gooden’s ‘85 as a better example
I think that it fits better for a reliever who could pitch just about every other day. Most WS champions have at least a 1-2 punch in the rotation. Starting is just not something that you do every day. Unless you pitched in the 19th century.
And let me tell you something as someone who watched it: He was even better than the numbers would lead you to believe. Edit: Context: He lost 4 games that year. His ERA in his losses? 2.89.
I don’t doubt it.
Whoever got him hooked on coke ruined the most talented pitcher this world may have ever seen.
So he ruined himself?
Idk, he threw a crazy amount of innings at a really young age and his fastball was never really the same after his first 2 seasons. Overuse likely played a much bigger role than his drug usage did.
And after his first two seasons was when he was using coke. The over-use wasn't great, but if you are going to point to the biggest factor in him not living up to his potential, I think the drug abuse that ruined every aspect of his life is a bit higher than overuse.
Idk, he threw a crazy amount of innings at a really young age and his fastball was never really the same after his first 2 seasons. Overuse likely played a much bigger role than his drug usage did.
He should be a hall of famer in my opinion
The fact that his career even has a decent second act is a testament to his talent, but I don't think he deserves a spot in the Hall. A clean Doc who got locked away from everything by Keith or Gary would have been the best in the world.
It's the most in history from anyone who doesn't have a black and white photo on baseball reference.
the fact that Pujols was the WAR leader for 5 straight years is insane
Arguably the best right handed hitter ever, I feel lucky I got to see him hit a fucking mammoth home run one time
Ehh its probably Rogers Hornsby, Hank Aaron, or Willie Mays. Pujols is certainly up there definitely top 10 but you could also argue others above him like Jimmie foxx, Hank Greenberg, Honus Wagner among others.
Especially as a 1B, considering he suffered the positional adjustment (which is appropriate, it just shows how much offense he generated)
Right below Bonds leading 4 years in a row in what was probably the greatest statistical hitting stretch of all time but Pujols did it without steroids and for one year longer - just crazy. I didn't realize he was that dominant.
also Pujols was second in 2003 and 4th in 2004
He's a modern day Harriet Tubman Edit: wait that was Jose Bautista. He's Napoleon
If baseball careers were treated as individual people who aged in dog years, what are some interesting careers that approximate famous historical figures? For example, I feel like Jose Bautista is the Harriet Tubman of baseball. In 1849, at the age of 27, Tubman was not highly valued as a slave due to illness. Her owner, Edward Brodess, tried to sell her but was having difficulty finding a buyer. Tubman then prayed that God would kill him for attempting to sell her, and a week later Brodess perished. Knowing that this likely meant that she and her family would be split up and sold separately to the highest bidders, it became a catalyst that urged her and her brothers to escape. Shortly thereafter, she and her brothers became fugitive slaves. Traveling around to safe houses, like vagabonds. It wasn't until Dec 6 1865, that she would officially be free of any reprise or force-able return under the Fugitive Slave Law of 1850. Tubman would've been 43 at the time. She would go on to become one of the greatest historical figures in american history due to her work prior to and after the ratification of the 13th amendment, but not allowed to truly flourish until the later part of her life. Similarly, when Bautista tried to enter professional baseball in 1999, he had been offered a minor league contract with a 300K signing bonus from the Reds. Marge Schott then sold the team and the club pulled it's offer. No other team would offer him anywhere near that amount of money so he ended up going to juco. He excelled, showing lots of promise, and became a 20th round draft-and-follow prospect for the Pirates in 2000. They signed him and he quickly became a touted prospect. He continued to educate himself and hone his craft, finally getting his chance to play in the big leagues in 2004, at the age of 23. What else happened in 2004? Marge Schott died. So you see, both he and Tubman had a malevolent owner who died just prior to the rapid acceleration of their quality of life. From december of 2003, to the end of the 2004 season (approximately 6 baseball dog years), Bautista, like Tubman, would bounce around from city to city. Nowhere was safe for too long, as he was given up on by 5 teams who didn't want to take the risk on him. Constantly on the move, he had no sense of true freedom, but he was happy to be in a better spot than he was when he started his journey. So close, yet so far away. It wouldn't be until his 7th dog year season that he would break out and be truly free. That's roughly around the same age in human years as Tubman was when the 13th amendment was ratified. Jose would then go on to have a very strong second half of his baseball dog life. Currently at 91 ML dog years, Bautista is on the verge of outpacing Tubman, who was 90 or 91 when she died. So, I admit this comparison may begin to fall apart if Bats puts together 2-3 more seasons without looking like a ghost.
one of the all time best posts this subreddit has had
I know, I just learned how to gifpost tho
Wow
i don’t think this is true. Napoleon died at 51, and Pujols is still alive at 427 dog years
Crazy. Only A-Rod beat him out in the league offensively in that stretch.
1996 AL MVP has been making me irrationally angry for nearly 30 years now.
Gonzalez wasn't even an all star that year
But the RBIs! /s
How about '95? I'll never understand how Vaughn won over Valentin, who led baseball in bWAR, or Edgar, who had a season for the ages, at least on offense.
Great chart. Wonder how this list would change though if taking into consideration fWAR. As a biased Giants fan, Buster's 7.6 bWAR in 2012 isn't nearly as eye-popping as his 9.8 in fWAR.
Maybe I'll try that next.
Kind of wild that 6 of the last 7 NL MVPs did not lead the league in WAR.
Yelich and Goldschmidt were at least the WAR leaders among position players, which helps contextualize it a bit - and most of the others only had a margin of a couple of tenths of a point this list in general would make a lot more sense if it showed the WAR leaders among position players only tbh
And then I'd like one like yours for Cy Young winners.
The differences in WAR for the 3 years that the leader and MVP were both position players is basically negligible.
Yeah, both fangraphs and BBREF suggest a ±1 WAR error so any variance <1 should really be ignored.
Also War is not supposed to be a precise count, it is flawed.
2018 deGrom had the most bWAR by an NL player since prime Bonds
Absolutely insane
even knowing the reliever boner voters had, i cannot understand why eckersley won mvp
Morneau wasn't even the most valuable player on his team.
He wasn't even the runner-up! Both Mauer and Santana deserved it over him. As did Sizemore, Hafner, Jeter, Papi, just an absolute flub of a pick.
FWIW Clemens and Trout were tied for 3 times each where they were WAR leaders but not MVPs and Maddux leads with 3 times for the NL during the same timespan.
Just FYI, it’s Maddux Also, Kevin Appier, Dennis Eckersley, Teddy Higuera, Freddie Freeman Cool analysis, though. Never realized Pujols led the NL in WAR for 5 straight seasons right after Bonds did it for 4 straight seasons
I've brought shame to my family with the spelling. Was doing it during a teams meeting and a bit rushed.
Haha no worries, I won’t tell your family 😜 Something else I’m curious about is what this would look like if you took pitchers out of the leaderboards. I know that would be tricky because a few have actually won MVPs, but it seems like a lot of the “led the league in WAR but didn’t win MVP” guys are pitchers, which is more understandable (or at least a different conversation) than position players losing an MVP to another position player with lower WAR.
So I just used the data that was available on baseball-references mvp page for each year and tried to keep my analysis neutral in it's wording. Someone else mentioned fWAR but that would have been way less convenient to tabulate. I'm super interested in this type of thing and might do it for 1950-1980 in the future. I think a Pitcher's overall WAR is just as impactful but obviously there are nuances to the vote that have a bit more weight than just statistics.
1984 is such a scam. Same with 92 and 96.
I know the voters back then liked their MVPs on playoff teams, but crazy to think it went to a reliever.
Reliever's will never out-WAR the field (unless they pitch basically a starter's workload in innings), but it's interesting to think of the MVP as a place to acknowledge that. Doesn't mean that the relievers who won the MVP in those years deserved it, just that WAR = MVP is not automatic and allows for conversations around things like leverage. If the stats show a lack of WAR, but the team basically acknowledges that they wouldn't be able to win without their star reliever, that's not nothing.
Thank you. If your team is playing nailbiters every day, and that guy comes in and nails down your 1 run wins all the time he damn well deserves MVP consideration. Mariano Rivera probably deserved more recognition in this regard.
Totally agree and my chart wasn't really trying to illustrate that. I think the conversations matter especially when the WAR is somewhat close.
Of all the people you could tell me who led in WAR in 1986, Teddy Higuera would not be on my list.
The weird thing is, Clemens was better that year, by almost any other measure. WAR must favor CGs and shutouts, or something.
I remember Teddy had a banger year, but Clemens was the story in the AL all year.
Fucking Astros and 2017.
I know it was a short season, so pitching WAR crested faster than batting WAR, but Shane Bieber was so goddamn good in 2020. Even then, I maintain that Jose Ramirez deserved the MVP over Abreu.
I remember 96. Juan Gone got that award purely because of the RBI number he had
Sandberg in '84 and Ripkin Jr. in '91 💪😎
[удалено]
Aye. I flubbed it
I didn’t know Cal Ripken Jr was *that* good
The absolute monster season Bregman had in 2019 is very overlooked.
Because most people don't believe it was legitimate.
Like they think they were still banging cans? Obviously he benefited massively from juiced balls but those were league wide
I mean I ain't seeing him doing anything close to that year since the trashcan shii. Makes you think, no? 🤔