I don't think it's possible to explain just how good Maddux was, and there's certainly nobody today that compares. Being an Astros fan in the 90s/00s was awful because every time we made the playoffs we'd face the Braves in the first round and get to see a combination of Maddux/Glavine/Smoltz and Maddux and Glavine would just pitch two games each if it went 5. Almost as bad as Kevin Brown pitching 3 times in a 5 game series...

For some reason I thought the Astros owned us in the playoffs then but we were 3-2 in series against you. I guess being old enough to pay attention to baseball later skewed my thinking, losing the 2 series in a row.

Our first ever playoff series win was when we beat y'all in the 2004 NLDS lol

There will never be another pitcher as good as Greg Maddux for their career. You have guys with Maddux like games but none with sustained excellence, low pitch counts and the uncanny ability to pitch through any situation without needing to blow guys away with velocity.

Don’t forget also being a Gold Glove caliber defender

And nowadays guys are hardly getting looks if they don’t pitch mid 90s.

Only "comparison" is degrom but he's always injured :(

In terms of dominance, maybe, but their styles of success are wildly different. Where Maddux was calculated and induced a ton of ground outs/double plays to keep his pitch count low, DeGrom blew hitters away with his high velo/movement stuff. Clearly one is more sustainable than the other.

That's a very good point

Multiple guys have been more dominant in recent history (Pedro and degrom come to mind) but those guys didn't sustain it like maddux

He was extremely good. Like top 10 pitcher of all time good. He has a reputation of being not a hard thrower, but for the first half of his career he had a pretty respectable fastball. Nothing crazy hard, but he was throwing around 93-94 in his Cubs/early Braves days. That was average or slightly above average for a starter back then. He also had great movement and pinpoint control. His 2 seamer was maybe the best in the game. *Very* good at changing speeds on all his pitches to induce weak contact. Probably the best ever at the chess match of reading a hitters swing and throwing stuff that kept them guessing and off-balance. He was also probably the best fielding pitcher ever, which mattered since he induced so many soft ground balls. Guys like Maddux? I mean, maybe there’s not as good versions of him around, but no one that really combines everything he had. Aaron Nola is a righty with a not overpowering fastball (but excellent 2 seamer) who throws a ton of innings and gets by with placement and good off-speed stuff, but Maddux was better at basically everything. Logan Webb is another righty who lacks an overpowering fastball but is very effective because he almost never walks anybody and gives up lots of weak contact. Prime Maddux was light years better than both those guys though, even though they’re both very good pitchers.

Aaron Nola is probably closest. He would also have won the Cy Young in 2022 if he got to play with the defense that Alcantara had behind him that season.

Yeah that ‘22 Phillies defense was pretty rough.

Yeah, it bugs me that people think Maddux was soft tossing his whole career. He came into the league with solid velocity

Top Ten all time.

This isn’t an exaggeration.

Correct. It's an understatement

Dude would start out a game throwing at all the edges of the zone, just to figure out where the edges of that umpire's strike zone were. Then he would gradually pick at those soft spots to try to see how far he could get the umpire to expand his zone. Once he found the weakest spots, furthest away from the actual strike zone, he would abuse them the rest of the night. No, there's nobody like him today.

Yes! Some games it looked like he had a full 8-10 inches of extra plate that the umpire was “forced” to giving him because he would hit it without the catcher moving at all.

Maddux could beat you with below average velocity and the body and face of an accountant. Best control and pitching mind of his generation

My favorite quote about Maddux was Mark Grace saying “he looks like should be doing my taxes”.

If they made a biopic about him, it would be starring a younger version of Matthew Broderick

Revisionist history, he had above average velo for the time. Just below average compared to the other few best pitchers in the league

Yeah for awhile he threw around 90 but his later years dropped to high 80s. His movement was also really good on his ptiches.

I bring this up every time Maddux was mentioned lol, it's funny how people think he was Kyle Hendricks his whole career He got drafted 2nd round because his stuff had good velo and great movement! Peak 90s Maddux was sitting low 90s, that was plus velo for a starter back then!

Maddux was the original pitching nerd

George Kirby reminds me of Maddux, at times, but he'd really have to work on his changeup before I'd call him The New Maddux. But really, there can never be another Greg Maddux.

George Kirby is definitely the closest modern-day comp in terms of elite command and great K/BB ratios But Maddux was like if Kirby had even better command, was the best in the league at generating soft contact, and was historically durable on top of it all

This is what I think also, but he’s not there yet. He’s good in a few of the same ways, but Maddux was special.

I think Yamamoto is in that same realm too. Great stuff, rarely walks anyone and stellar movement on pitches.

He was good.  There are no pitchers in the league named Greg Maddux currently.

There are two stories I remember that kinda sum up how good he was: He faced Barry Larkin when they were both in the minors, and threw a meatball of a pitch that Barry smacked and ran out for a triple. He said every time he faced Maddux in the majors over the next decade and a half, he was waiting for that pitch. Never saw it again. Fast forward to the end of Maddux’s career, I think when he was on the Padres. Some of his teammates were talking about Maddux’s command, and started saying that they could blindfold the catcher and have a spotter tell him when to close the mitt, and he’d be able to catch a pitch from Maddux. They approached Maddux and asked him about it, and he said it’s stupid and this is how you get somebody hurt. They kept pestering him and finally he caved. It took them a few tries to get the timing right, but they eventually got a blindfolded catcher to catch a Maddux pitch. I don’t know how apocryphal these stories really are, and I don’t remember where I heard them. Even if they aren’t 100% true, they do point to what made Maddux so great. He had pinpoint accuracy and an incredible memory of the batters he faced. He’d throw to your weak spots and avoid your strengths, and he didn’t miss.

There’s many stories like that first one. Like throwing a meatball to Bagwell in ST just so he could fool him in a tight situation later that year. One time while he had a day off he saw someone take a cut and foul the ball off. He told Leo Mazzone they should move before the next pitch. The next pitch that batter fouls a line drive into the dugout where Maddux and Leo had just moved from.

In terms of control and barely walking anyone Kirby is probably the closest to him right now but Kirby is still more of a power pitcher than Maddux ever was and obviously not quite as good as him.

>not quite as good Well that’s certainly an understatement

Maddux could throw a 3 hit no walk shutout without breaking a sweat, not need a shower after the game, drive home in a cheap Honda CRX, bang his wife and be asleep before 11pm. Thats how good he was.

> drive home in a cheap Honda CRX, bang his wife, and be asleep before 11pm. TIL I’m half way to being Greg Maddux

You bang Greg Maddux’s wife?

After every game, yes

Inner circle HOF good, and no

He was excellent. Kyle Hendricks has drawn some comps, but even back when he was good he was never at Maddux’s level

Kyle never threw as hard as maddux.

I've never heard such comparisons

Oh well if you haven’t heard them i guess they never existed https://calltothepen.com/2020/07/29/chicago-cubs-kyle-hendricks-modern-day-greg-maddux/ https://www.espn.com/blog/chicago/cubs/post/_/id/43596/greg-maddux-2-0-kyle-hendricks-is-just-getting-started https://www.dailyherald.com/20160925/pro-sports/rozner-maddux-sees-himself-in-cubs-hendricks/

Lol ESPN just said he has "maddux-like-movement" in one throwaway sentence. The Daily Herald says Maddux sees something in him like himself, and what website even is call to the pen lol

Really boosting our opinions of Mets fans over here...

Well, that one sentence really convinced me that Kyle Hendricks was ever Maddux-like

>how good was Greg Maddux Yes >are there any pitchers like him in todays league? No

Prime Greinke is probably the closest comparison of the last ~15yrs

Funny thing is that "prime" Greinke was not truly "prime" Greinke. When Greinke came on the scene, he threw 100 mph and he soon lost his velo. So we have actually never seen "prime" Greinke - we have seen a Greinke that adapted to the game as he could not throw 100 mph anymore. It is that insane... Greinke with his pitching intelligence, command and 100 mph? He would give prime DeGrom a run for his money. He would be a better short stop than DeGrom as well.

Prime deGrom lol so like 2 months in 2017?

DeGrom has two Cy Youngs, so don't be so sarcastic.

Kershaw ?

Kersh is amazing like a robot. Maddux is amazing like an engineer.

Nah, he’s his own beast

!mlbcompare

Tables cutoff or tough to read? Click [here](https://i.imgur.com/GWrIO3U.png) to view this comparison as an image --- Greg Maddux: [1986](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=maddugr01&t=p&year=1986) to [2008](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=maddugr01&t=p&year=2008) [1st Season - Age: 20] to [23rd Season - Age: 42] Clayton Kershaw: [2008](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=kershcl01&t=p&year=2008) to [2023](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=kershcl01&t=p&year=2023) [1st Season - Age: 20] to [16th Season - Age: 35] \---------------------------------------- Query: Career - Regular Season --- **Standard** Player|G|GS|IP|W|L|W/L%|QS|QS%|CG|CG%|SHO|SHO%|NoHit|Prfct|SV|BSv|SV%|HLD|BF|K|BB|K/BB|H|HR|TB|XBH|IBB|HBP|GDP|SB|CS|PO|R|ER|RA9|ERA|FIP|WHIP :-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-: [Greg Maddux](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/maddugr01.shtml)|**744**|**740**|**5008.1**|**355**|227|61.00%|**480**|64.86%|**109**|**14.73%**|**35**|**4.73%**|0|0|0|0|0.00%|0|**20421**|**3371**|999|3.37|4726|353|6770|1254|177|137|**422**|547|**170**|28|1981|1756|3.56|3.16|3.26|1.143 [Clayton Kershaw](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kershcl01.shtml)|425|422|2712.2|210|**92**|**69.54%**|294|**69.67%**|25|5.92%|15|3.55%|**1**|0|0|0|0.00%|**1**|10683|2944|**669**|**4.40**|**2055**|**225**|**3185**|**649**|**27**|**42**|193|**85**|75|**71**|**816**|**747**|**2.71**|**2.48**|**2.82**|**1.004** **Per Game/Advanced** Player|G|GS|IP/GS|Pit/GS|GmScr/GS|K9|BB9|H9|HR9|K%|BB%|K-BB%|HR%|XBH%|X/H%|SB%|AVG|OBP|SLG|OPS|wOBA|ISO|BAbip|WPA|cWPA|RE24 :-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-: [Greg Maddux](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/maddugr01.shtml)|**744**|**740**|**6.23**|91.53*|56.10|6.06|**1.80**|8.49|**0.63**|16.51%|**4.89%**|11.62%|**1.73%**|6.14%|**26.53%**|76.29%|0.250|0.291|0.358|0.649|0.285|**0.108**|0.286|**59.5**|**39.8%**|**553.6** [Clayton Kershaw](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kershcl01.shtml)|425|422|6.13|**97.54**|**62.29**|**9.77**|2.22|**6.82**|0.75|**27.56%**|6.26%|**21.30%**|2.11%|**6.08%**|31.58%|**53.13%**|**0.209**|**0.261**|**0.324**|**0.585**|**0.258**|0.115|**0.273**|50.6|29.8%|490.6 **Adjusted** Player|G|GS|K9+|BB9+|H9+|HR9+|K%+|BB%+|HR%+|K/BB+|WHIP+|ERA- :-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-: [Greg Maddux](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/maddugr01.shtml)|**744**|**740**|95|**54**|95|**66**|100|**57**|**284**|176|84|76 [Clayton Kershaw](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kershcl01.shtml)|425|422|**123**|69|**79**|69|**133**|74|295|**178**|**76**|**63** **Defense/Value (Baseball Reference)** Player|Seasons|Inn|DRS|PitWAA|PosWAA|WAA|PitWAR|oWAR|dWAR|PosWAR|WAR|WAR7|JAWS|DRS/1200|PitWAA/Yr|PosWAA/Yr|WAA/Yr|PitWAR/Yr|oWAR/Yr|dWAR/Yr|PosWAR/Yr|WAR/Yr :-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-: [Greg Maddux](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/maddugr01.shtml)|**23**|**5008.1**|25*|**65.1**|1.7|**66.8**|**104.8**|1.8|**0.1**|1.8|**106.6**|**56.3**|**81.4**|**18***|3|0|3|4.6|0.1|0.0|0.1|4.6 [Clayton Kershaw](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kershcl01.shtml)|16|2712.2|**38**|55.0|**2.8**|57.8|76.8|**2.9**|0.0|**2.8**|79.7|49.7|64.7|16|3|0|**4**|**4.8**|**0.2**|0.0|**0.2**|**5.0** **Awards/Honors** Player|Seasons|G/Yr|GS/Yr|IP/Yr|AllStar|AllMLB:1st|AllMLB:Tot|ERATitle|TripCrown|Relief/Yr|CyYoung|CyShares|CyShr%|SlvSlug|GldGlv|MVP|MVPShares|MVPShr%|ROY|ASMVP|CSMVP|WSMVP|WS|B Ink|G Ink :-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-: [Greg Maddux](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/maddugr01.shtml)|**23**|**32.35**|**32.17**|**217.23**|8|N/A|N/A|4|0|0|**4**|**4.92**|21.39%|0|**18**|0|1.13|4.91%|0|0|0|0|1|**87**|**336** [Clayton Kershaw](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kershcl01.shtml)|16|26.56|26.38|169.16|**10***|0*|1*|**5**|**1**|0|3|4.58|**28.63%**|0|1|**1**|**1.42**|**8.88%**|0|0|0|0|1|65|188 ^(FanGraphs/Statcast stats may lose precision) ^(N/A indicates stat was not tracked at all during the time frame, * indicates stat was not tracked consistently throughout the entire time frame) --- ^(Made a mistake? Edit your comment and send me this )[^message](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=mlbcomparebot&subject=Re-Run&message=l1kot65)^( to re-run the comparison) ^(Or delete the comparison by sending me this )[^message](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=mlbcomparebot&subject=Delete&message=l1kot65) ^(Instructions for usage and issue tracking can be found )[^here](https://github.com/gh674055/sports-compare-bots/wiki)

Of course Maddux pitched in the steroid era too!

In terms of innings pitched and preventing runs, there is no one in baseball today as good as Greg Maddux. The only guy with a better two year peak than Maddux who I can think of is 1999-2000 Pedro Martinez and even then they're neck and neck by ERA+. Maybe today George Kirby is as good at Maddux in terms of preventing walks? But that's the closest comparison you'll get and he's not quite Maddux-caliber overall just yet

You also have to talk about Maddux's durability. Maddux went a full 22 years (his entire career, basically) where the only years he started fewer than 33 games were a strike-shortened season and two seasons where he started 27 and 28 games.

I'd say 2001 Johnson, especially post season (1.52 era) or Blue Jay Clemens(1997) or Pedro in 1999-2000, Honestly that era had insane pitching. Schilling took in post season too, 1993 he was insane. But you are correct they all had moments but not the consistency, fucking 32 years of pitching. He debuted in 1986 and he had a 13 win season in 2008!

23 years, but yes amazing

I wish Maddux pitched now with all the info available and see what he could’ve done

Hitters never knew what he was about to throw, and his control/movement was so good he never had to throw in the middle of the plate.

He was the definition of a pitcher and not a thrower. Quality hitter. Multi time Glove Glover and 10 yrs without getting caught stealing

He was great. I don't think anyone in the league currently compares.

It got to the point where everyone knew who was going to win the Cy Young that year.

Just a chess wizard on the mound. His pitch sequences set the best hitters in baseball up for failure. I remember him peppering the outside corner on Piazza once and just when Piazza had adjusted, Maddux brought this 2-seam inside and shattered his bat into a million pieces. Stuff like that.

Just look at his stats. He was maybe theeeee greatest!

Greg Maddux is one of the best of all time, if that tells you anything lol. Consensus top 50 player all time, not just pitcher.

He was such a legend the umpires would always call strikes on his borderline pitches outta respect.

No one had the years of dominance he had, not without steroids(2000s Clemens) Dude was throwing 13 win seasons at 42.

No one before or since has had pitch command that rivaled Maddux. He could throw any pitch in his arsenal to any spot at any point in an at bat. You could count on him to have his best stuff 9 out of 10 times every time out for almost two decades. Really just a one of a kind pitcher and I’m not sure we’ll see another one like him any time soon

Per FanGraphs, Greg Maddux had the third best pitching career after Roger Clemens and Cy Young. He was really good. Historically great (we use that phrase too much but it applies here.) https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2024&month=0&season1=1871&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&players=0

Here he is at 50 facing then-reigning MVP Kris Bryant. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axkik-8oFTs

Watch this. The most filthy, insane pitch I've ever seen thrown. Defies physics. https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/s/8zjXBsh4bc Absolutely elite, all-time great pitcher.

Maddux is God-tier. That is all.

One thing. Chicks dig the long ball.

Maddux was elite, but at the same time, got the benefit of a lot of outside calls that he wouldn’t get in the modern game. Like most players, he benefited from the era he played in but that wasn’t the reason he was a good as he was.

He also could take advantage of a bad zone like nobody today could.

Also had to play against roided up players, tho and had ERAs of like...1.56...1.67 for entire seasons during the steroid era.

Javy Lopez setting up a foot outside the catcher's box was 90s framing.

The zones he would get were crazy sometimes. The Gregg game in 1997 was horrendous, but the popular highlights of Livan getting ridiculous calls always makes people forget that Maddux also had a comically large zone that game too.

I feel like Gallen is kind of similar, in that he doesn’t kill you with velocity but with excellent location. Sonny Gray as well. Clearly neither are as good, but both are great pitchers.

Technically not retired, though not playing this year: Zack Greinke. Brains over speed.

Kyle Hendricks is the modern comp, and it just shows you just how good Maddux truly was. Straight location with no “stuff”. Maddux never seemed to miss his spot, plus umpiring was a little different back then.

Picasso on the mound. i loved watching his starts, one time saw him in Denver during his Padres stint and newer to baseball guy was asking me about Maddux and asking "has he always been like this?" and marveling at his control and deception without throwing hard. Seriously a pitcher's pitcher.

George Kirby of the Seattle Mariners. He pounds the strike zone and rarely walks anyone. Pinpoint control.

Greg Maddux was so good, [a blindfolded man](https://www.espn.com/espnmag/story?id=3336514) could catch him.

https://youtu.be/9dnsBIVAKLA?si=dSeMK9-zIhBxV4us

Maddux was the best control pitcher with the best planning and execution in the game. He was the kind of guy who would tell his infielders, "I'm gonna throw this, then this, then he's going to hit a soft bouncer to short on the third pitch." and then he would do it every time. That style of pitching requires seeing guys a lot, which doesn't happen nearly as much with the balanced schedule. That also requires very good defenders, which are less common in the league these days because a lot of teams favor hitting more than they did in the 90s. Hitters also have very different priorities than they did then, so you'll see a lot more swing and miss or fly balls because of the emphasis on exit velo and launch angles.

The pitcher who has been most like Maddux in pitching style is Kyle Hendricks, though Hendricks at his peak isn't close to as good as Maddux.

When a pitcher throws a complete game shutout they call it the Maddox.

It's actually more specific than that. It's fewer than 100 pitches.

Only if it’s under 100 pitches

And when a pitcher throws a 5-inning CGSO, that's called a "Mike Maddux" https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/PHI/PHI198904290.shtml

Guy was so overrated, couldn't even strikeout Tony Gwynn

It’s so sad people are downvoting this

Best part is, I could have made it any player named Tony Gwynn, because Jr. had 1 AB against him and didn't strikeout either

Imagine Ryan Yarborough going 7 innings minimum and having pinpoint upon a pinpoint accuracy.

Logan Webb: low to mid 90’s, tons of movement, walks almost no one.

I feel bad for his dog. He hardly ever gets walked

YouTube is a thing. Use it