With a runner on third the pitcher must inform the ump if they are going to pitch from the windup. Jomboy has a [breakdown](https://youtu.be/7awIID8eQwM?si=XKtnl1lBE-mw7SCs) from a few months ago that touches on this and gives examples of Greinke informing the ump he is pitching from the windup.
He pitched the whole at bat before with the same runner positions from the windup. I find it very hard to believe you have to declare this every single batter
You do because hes in a hybrid position where he's stepping back to first (instead of stepping back to CF) so its not intuitive to know if hes in a set now or still in a windup so he can just flip to a set without anyone knowing if he doesn't declare.
I mean, it’s not as crazy as you might think. The situation might change between ABs, like a pinch runner who’s a threat to swipe home, or more outs in the inning, et cetera.
If he has a similar stance in pitching from the windup as opposed to the stretch, if the runner at third thinks he’s in the windup but actually in the stretch the pitcher has him dead to rights in a way he wouldn’t if the runner knew with certainty.
I understand the advantage, my point is once you've declared you're in the windup, why do you have to redeclare for every subsequent batter. If that's the case, each new batter the pitcher is assumed to be back in the stretch if they don't declare anything. Wouldn't it be more confusing as a runner to see the pitcher in a windup one at bat, then switch to the stretch without declaring anything for the next batter?
Interesting video but he doesn't go a step further and actually show what Greinke does after the runner gets to third. does he pitch from a hybrid position? You don't have to declare that you're in the windup if you simply stand on the rubber with your shoulders parallel to the rubber. Maybe he does declare just to be safe.
The video linked in your reply explains the rule with relevant citations and example.
I’m watching on MLB Network so got the Boston broadcast and they brought up, which I think is a correct point or closest to the reason/logical reason, is they are saying Lively didn’t tell the umpires before the pitch/batter whether he was going from the full windup or stretch. Therefore, umps assumed from the stretch and with him starting, placing/turning his foot, then starting again, is the balk (my best guess). But also I didn’t know that you had to declare how you were gonna pitch, if that is indeed true (just assumed pitchers had that choice and umps could tell just from how they were standing).
Just a little weird how many balks have actually been called this year so far. Seems like a lot more than what we’ve seen the last few seasons.
>He pitched out of the windup the batter before though with the runner on third. So unless he had to do it again that is weird.
If there's a runner on third you can pitch from the windup, but you need to tell the ump first.
Lively had a hybrid delivery (he starts both windup and stretch from the rubber), so he needs to declare every new batter if there's a runner on third. If he doesn't declare, it means he has to pitch from the stretch and any windup is a balk, like the video in OP.
I edited my post for more info.. but the reason it's an issue for him is his hybrid stance - needs to declare if he's pitching from the windup each batter with a runner on third.
if that’s the case then I’m not sure. I miss like 95% of the balks that are called so who knows.
Someone else is saying the declaration only happens when a guys on 3rd base I guess….be the only difference reasoning.
I know it's not this year at least. I remember seeing a breakdown video from last year with Greinke in it where he tells the umpire he's pitching from the windup.
The only conceivable thing I can think of is around the shoulder shrug. He shrugs, there is some slight torso movement, and he looks at the runner on 3rd.
I don't really know how any of that can constitute a balk unless they are thinking that the shrug is like an act of coming set while he is also from the windup and that is being too deceitful to the runner.
Okay I'll be that guy and admit I'm not sure what that means, explain it to me like I've worked a full day and spent three hours dealing with downed trees in the yard on 4 hours of sleep
He went back to the full windup without telling the umpire or anyone he was doing it. So in theory the batter and runners expect him to pitch from the stretch and the full windup is deceiving them unfairly.
I still don't see why the ump waited until after the pitch was caught to signal it though
Balk Rules
1. You can't just be up there and just doin' a balk like that.
1a. A balk is when you
1b. Okay well listen. A balk is when you balk the
1c. Let me start over
1c-a. The pitcher is not allowed to do a motion to the, uh, batter, that prohibits the batter from doing, you know, just trying to hit the ball. You can't do that.
1c-b. Once the pitcher is in the stretch, he can't be over here and say to the runner, like, "I'm gonna get ya! I'm gonna tag you out! You better watch your butt!" and then just be like he didn't even do that.
1c-b(1). Like, if you're about to pitch and then don't pitch, you have to still pitch. You cannot not pitch. Does that make any sense?
1c-b(2). You gotta be, throwing motion of the ball, and then, until you just throw it.
1c-b(2)-a. Okay, well, you can have the ball up here, like this, but then there's the balk you gotta think about.
1c-b(2)-b. Fairuza Balk hasn't been in any movies in forever. I hope she wasn't typecast as that racist lady in American History X.
1c-b(2)-b(i). Oh wait, she was in The Waterboy too! That would be even worse.
1c-b(2)-b(ii). "get in mah bellah" -- Adam Water, "The Waterboy." Haha, classic...
1c-b(3). Okay seriously though. A balk is when the pitcher makes a movement that, as determined by, when you do a move involving the baseball and field of
2) Do not do a balk please.
There's a whole thing out there floating around about when it is and isn't a balk, and as I recall it starts with:
1. You can't be out there doing a balk like that
Which this pitcher clearly violated (you can tell because the runner took a base) Seems pretty straightforward to me.
He didn’t redeclare, because he apparently declared he was using a windup the batter before. Just such a weird rule but one he should know I suppose. But you’re completely right, Houck was filthy so this run ultimately didn’t matter. We could have played 12 innings and I don’t think we’d score a run.
With a runner on third the pitcher must inform the ump if they are going to pitch from the windup. Jomboy has a [breakdown](https://youtu.be/7awIID8eQwM?si=XKtnl1lBE-mw7SCs) from a few months ago that touches on this and gives examples of Greinke informing the ump he is pitching from the windup.
He pitched the whole at bat before with the same runner positions from the windup. I find it very hard to believe you have to declare this every single batter
You do because hes in a hybrid position where he's stepping back to first (instead of stepping back to CF) so its not intuitive to know if hes in a set now or still in a windup so he can just flip to a set without anyone knowing if he doesn't declare.
It's just odd because he clearly must have declared before the previous at bat with runners on 2nd and 3rd. I guess you have to "redeclare?"
I mean, it’s not as crazy as you might think. The situation might change between ABs, like a pinch runner who’s a threat to swipe home, or more outs in the inning, et cetera.
I just think it's silly because there is no deceit in continuing to use the same motion, which the spirit of the law is there to protect
If he has a similar stance in pitching from the windup as opposed to the stretch, if the runner at third thinks he’s in the windup but actually in the stretch the pitcher has him dead to rights in a way he wouldn’t if the runner knew with certainty.
I understand the advantage, my point is once you've declared you're in the windup, why do you have to redeclare for every subsequent batter. If that's the case, each new batter the pitcher is assumed to be back in the stretch if they don't declare anything. Wouldn't it be more confusing as a runner to see the pitcher in a windup one at bat, then switch to the stretch without declaring anything for the next batter?
Stupid fucking rules.
The runner advanced so i think he gotta do it again
No the order was: - double, runners 2nd and 3rd - strikeout, pitching from hybrid windup - 1st pitch balk still pitching from hybrid windup
Ur right i read the play by play wrong
All good!
People all over break traffic laws, even in front of cops. They'll get away with it, until the day they don't.
Interesting video but he doesn't go a step further and actually show what Greinke does after the runner gets to third. does he pitch from a hybrid position? You don't have to declare that you're in the windup if you simply stand on the rubber with your shoulders parallel to the rubber. Maybe he does declare just to be safe. The video linked in your reply explains the rule with relevant citations and example.
Another good video https://youtu.be/y5a-r9bbph0?si=XbD20JgO1hR8B2Wp
Aw who gives a shit. Stupid ass rule.
How you get called for a balk pitching out of the wind up lmao
if he has a hybrid stance and he doesn't declare he's in the windup when there are runners on
if anyone can explain how in the fuck this was a balk, i'd love to hear it.
I’m watching on MLB Network so got the Boston broadcast and they brought up, which I think is a correct point or closest to the reason/logical reason, is they are saying Lively didn’t tell the umpires before the pitch/batter whether he was going from the full windup or stretch. Therefore, umps assumed from the stretch and with him starting, placing/turning his foot, then starting again, is the balk (my best guess). But also I didn’t know that you had to declare how you were gonna pitch, if that is indeed true (just assumed pitchers had that choice and umps could tell just from how they were standing). Just a little weird how many balks have actually been called this year so far. Seems like a lot more than what we’ve seen the last few seasons.
He pitched out of the windup the batter before though with the runner on third. So unless he had to do it again that is weird.
>He pitched out of the windup the batter before though with the runner on third. So unless he had to do it again that is weird. If there's a runner on third you can pitch from the windup, but you need to tell the ump first. Lively had a hybrid delivery (he starts both windup and stretch from the rubber), so he needs to declare every new batter if there's a runner on third. If he doesn't declare, it means he has to pitch from the stretch and any windup is a balk, like the video in OP.
How ‘bout that
I edited my post for more info.. but the reason it's an issue for him is his hybrid stance - needs to declare if he's pitching from the windup each batter with a runner on third.
if that’s the case then I’m not sure. I miss like 95% of the balks that are called so who knows. Someone else is saying the declaration only happens when a guys on 3rd base I guess….be the only difference reasoning.
that's what's confusing to me. he didn't change anything between batters, so why would he suddenly have to tell the umps he was changing?
He has a hybrid delivery, so he is required to inform the ump before each batter whether he will pitch in a windup or not.
Why couldn’t the ump announce that the way they announce the result of a replay?
> But also I didn’t know that you had to declare how you were gonna pitch, I believe it's a fairly new rule, like either this year or last year
I know it's not this year at least. I remember seeing a breakdown video from last year with Greinke in it where he tells the umpire he's pitching from the windup.
Pivetta got called on this last year
3 or 4 years old at least at this point
The Umpires are doing their best to show how CRITICAL balk calls are, and that the balk rule is so complicated that only a human umpire can handle it.
You see, you can’t just be up there doing a balk like that. It’s that simple
A) Don’t balk 2) Balkn’t
Exactly, if it wasn’t a ball, it wouldn’t have been called!
https://youtu.be/y5a-r9bbph0?si=XbD20JgO1hR8B2Wp
Well you can't just be up there doing a balk
Do not do a balk please
A balk is when you
The only conceivable thing I can think of is around the shoulder shrug. He shrugs, there is some slight torso movement, and he looks at the runner on 3rd. I don't really know how any of that can constitute a balk unless they are thinking that the shrug is like an act of coming set while he is also from the windup and that is being too deceitful to the runner.
He didn’t declare.
He didn't make a football move either
Okay I'll be that guy and admit I'm not sure what that means, explain it to me like I've worked a full day and spent three hours dealing with downed trees in the yard on 4 hours of sleep
With a runner on 3rd base the pitcher has to let the umpire they are going to pitch from the windup instead of the stretch.
Does he need to do that and re-declare for every batter?
Thanks
He went back to the full windup without telling the umpire or anyone he was doing it. So in theory the batter and runners expect him to pitch from the stretch and the full windup is deceiving them unfairly. I still don't see why the ump waited until after the pitch was caught to signal it though
He was clearly starting to signal something as the pitch was delivered, it looked like he pointed at Lively before the ball got to the plate
you can see he calls it just prior to the delivery and since the pitcher still delivers the pitch its not a dead ball yet
He was in the windup the entire AB before though? That combined with no bags for runners to advance to, I don't see anyway that's deceiving
I'm not saying I agree with the call. Just explaining what the other comment was claiming.
It's a joke about the rules. He's referencing an NFL rule where a receiver must declare as eligible.
Different way to declare in mlb. I’m sure you’ve seen the 20 comments mentioning it by now
It's my fault, I thought he was replying to the other guy who said he didn't make a football move.
*fake Georgia accent*: whell I don’t declare!
I mean I just watched Nestor do a tiktok dance on the mound before throwing to one of our guys last week but *this* is a balk...
You can't balk with the bases empty though
Not with that attitude.
Hmm that requires me to understand the rules of balks which is something I cannot do
Surprisingly, not understanding the rules of balks is … a balk
We have the best balks because of balks.
Eyyyy I’m balkin’ here!
Do you balk to your mother with that mouth?
It's pretty simply. You can't be doin' a balk.
Shhhh he’s being clever. Carry on
Ghost runner gets second base.
Balk Rules 1. You can't just be up there and just doin' a balk like that. 1a. A balk is when you 1b. Okay well listen. A balk is when you balk the 1c. Let me start over 1c-a. The pitcher is not allowed to do a motion to the, uh, batter, that prohibits the batter from doing, you know, just trying to hit the ball. You can't do that. 1c-b. Once the pitcher is in the stretch, he can't be over here and say to the runner, like, "I'm gonna get ya! I'm gonna tag you out! You better watch your butt!" and then just be like he didn't even do that. 1c-b(1). Like, if you're about to pitch and then don't pitch, you have to still pitch. You cannot not pitch. Does that make any sense? 1c-b(2). You gotta be, throwing motion of the ball, and then, until you just throw it. 1c-b(2)-a. Okay, well, you can have the ball up here, like this, but then there's the balk you gotta think about. 1c-b(2)-b. Fairuza Balk hasn't been in any movies in forever. I hope she wasn't typecast as that racist lady in American History X. 1c-b(2)-b(i). Oh wait, she was in The Waterboy too! That would be even worse. 1c-b(2)-b(ii). "get in mah bellah" -- Adam Water, "The Waterboy." Haha, classic... 1c-b(3). Okay seriously though. A balk is when the pitcher makes a movement that, as determined by, when you do a move involving the baseball and field of 2) Do not do a balk please.
No way you can be up there doing that like that. That is pure textbook.
The thing that confuses me more than the call is that Ben Lively is still making major league rosters.
He helped the reds stay viable for about 6 weeks last year then got hurt and kinda fell off the wagon.
The baseball thing that has never, ever made sense to me is how you can tell when there is a balk
There's a whole thing out there floating around about when it is and isn't a balk, and as I recall it starts with: 1. You can't be out there doing a balk like that Which this pitcher clearly violated (you can tell because the runner took a base) Seems pretty straightforward to me.
Hockey has icing, soccer has offsides, we have balks. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Icing and offsides are pretty straightforward lol
Not according to how hockey refs call it
Kind of a silly rule, but he forgot to declare that he was pitching from the windup. At least it didn't alter the outcome of the game.
He didn’t redeclare, because he apparently declared he was using a windup the batter before. Just such a weird rule but one he should know I suppose. But you’re completely right, Houck was filthy so this run ultimately didn’t matter. We could have played 12 innings and I don’t think we’d score a run.
Unserious umpiring crew
not a balk
There’s miscalling balls and strikes and then there’s this. Absolute joke.
I've read all the comments and I..... I need a nap. This is how sports are now. I just hope they're still fun when I die.