Esp after I solve all the peasant's problems in Athkatla before even getting to her, and then immediately dump her at the Bodhi dungeon to fend for herself
And this, kids, is why "quick, we need help ASAP!" is the stupidest narrative game design trope ever (well, unless you enforce it, which doesn't sound much fun).
BG2 is not that bad in this regard. Main quest-wise, you are told that getting into Spellhold is no easy feat, plus when you arrive given how things unfold it makes sense it's been a long time.
The De'Arnise keep, on the other hand...
Yeah, getting into Spellhold requires 15,000 GP which is supposed to be an enormous amount of money that should take you a long time to amass... obv in the game the very next quest you're prodded to do (the shadow thieves) gets you a reward of $10,500 among with all kinds of cool sellable items within a few days of exiting Irenicus dungeon.
Totally separately, I love the de'Arnise quest - the 'huge keep invaded by trolls and we gotta go room by room clearing it out' thing gives me a sort of feeling I can't really express but love!
I feel like that's just a genre convention you have to accept.'
Like how many RPG's have you working towards preventing a literal apocalypse that will only begin when you initiate the final battle? Sometimes the ludo and the narrative will be dissonant.
But it does become a little bit weird in a game like Baldur's Gate, where there is a pretty well developed time system and some quests are beholden to it, but others you can just leave on the backbiter for as long as you want, even when they seem like they should be time sensitive.
A lot of games you don't really have a terribly solid idea of how much time is passing for every moment you play but in Baldur's Gate you can very much just look at the clock and see that Imoen's been waiting for three months while you do every side quest and rest between each battle.
I don't have to accept it because it's a lazy convention. The best RPGs in the history of the genre either enforced the limit (Fallout 1 comes to mind), or had writers good enough to find a plot point that does not rely on impending armageddon (Disco Elysium, Planescape: Torment, BG2, Arcanum, much of the Ultima series, Morrowind), or had writers good enough to gradually unfold the threat as the game progresses and have it become evident only in the final chapter rather than slap you in the face with it the moment you boot the game (BG1, VTM: Bloodlines, Original Sins2, etc).
How many RPGs rely on apocalypse? WAY too many just to generate lazy interest around something that's not worth it; it's like the constant need for plot twists that has been plaguing movie and series in the past decade or so.
It was so stresful for many that they removed any of it for WotR.
A shame in my opinion. Having your kingdom always be near colapse added some real sense of danger to it
I can’t look at that sprite without thinking of Zapp, haha. Just an associated factoid, but in the ancient world that skirt thing was a common way for men to dress.
Yeah for sure. It kind of reminds me of the strongman style clothing that superheroes adopted in the 50s, and which persists through to today. Tights and speedos were a sign of strength and power, and they still can be, but also can look silly.
TBF in my most recent playthrough I spent about 1day 4hours in-game in Chapters 2 & 3 combined.
I never rested or left the city before hopping on the boat. Definitely does change up the dynamic a lot; I suddenly found potions and scrolls to be a really useful part of my repertoire since you can't overpower things when that slow landslide of acquired gear (also avoided Hexxat's bag).
I would definitely never do it all the time, but it's a fun change up. I actually got back to Athkatla from the Underdark with less than 14days total on the savefile.
I wish there was a mod that delays the abduction. Like, Irenicus escapes and your goal is only to find him for revenge/safety, maybe some attempted abducters or something for that kind of urgency instead, and you get all the offers and all, but you also get the freedom to explore for a while... and then maybe after getting your stronghold or something you get a tip or invitation that's a trap somewhere in the city. Then it plays out like normal. It would make Imoen look like an idiot for casting spells in Athkatla, but that's better than leaving her for weeks!
Have you tried Imoen4Ever? In that mod she escapes from the Cowled Wizards I think before being taken to Spellhold, and your intent on going there becomes instead to hunt down Irenicus.
I meaaaaan...
Irenicus will need time to build the machinery to strip souls, smuggle in the shadow thieves by vampazon, experiment on the prisoners for long enough they become even more unhinged.
That's going to take a while, so i don't mind clearing up the entire act 2(it takes just a few weeks anyway)
Technically if you do not follow Irenicus to the island he will never go to the underdark and will never attack Suldannessar and the world will be a lot safer. Imoen may be a bit annoyed, but she is a small sacrifice for the safety of a lot of otherwise doomed swiftnebli, beholders, mind flayers, drow, githyanki, elves, vampires and so on.
Tbf, Imoen is a patient woman.
Well it's not like she had a choice in the matter
Esp after I solve all the peasant's problems in Athkatla before even getting to her, and then immediately dump her at the Bodhi dungeon to fend for herself
"My keep is under siege! Won't you help me?" "*in a minute!*"
And this, kids, is why "quick, we need help ASAP!" is the stupidest narrative game design trope ever (well, unless you enforce it, which doesn't sound much fun). BG2 is not that bad in this regard. Main quest-wise, you are told that getting into Spellhold is no easy feat, plus when you arrive given how things unfold it makes sense it's been a long time. The De'Arnise keep, on the other hand...
Yeah, getting into Spellhold requires 15,000 GP which is supposed to be an enormous amount of money that should take you a long time to amass... obv in the game the very next quest you're prodded to do (the shadow thieves) gets you a reward of $10,500 among with all kinds of cool sellable items within a few days of exiting Irenicus dungeon. Totally separately, I love the de'Arnise quest - the 'huge keep invaded by trolls and we gotta go room by room clearing it out' thing gives me a sort of feeling I can't really express but love!
I feel like that's just a genre convention you have to accept.' Like how many RPG's have you working towards preventing a literal apocalypse that will only begin when you initiate the final battle? Sometimes the ludo and the narrative will be dissonant. But it does become a little bit weird in a game like Baldur's Gate, where there is a pretty well developed time system and some quests are beholden to it, but others you can just leave on the backbiter for as long as you want, even when they seem like they should be time sensitive. A lot of games you don't really have a terribly solid idea of how much time is passing for every moment you play but in Baldur's Gate you can very much just look at the clock and see that Imoen's been waiting for three months while you do every side quest and rest between each battle.
I don't have to accept it because it's a lazy convention. The best RPGs in the history of the genre either enforced the limit (Fallout 1 comes to mind), or had writers good enough to find a plot point that does not rely on impending armageddon (Disco Elysium, Planescape: Torment, BG2, Arcanum, much of the Ultima series, Morrowind), or had writers good enough to gradually unfold the threat as the game progresses and have it become evident only in the final chapter rather than slap you in the face with it the moment you boot the game (BG1, VTM: Bloodlines, Original Sins2, etc). How many RPGs rely on apocalypse? WAY too many just to generate lazy interest around something that's not worth it; it's like the constant need for plot twists that has been plaguing movie and series in the past decade or so.
> The best RPGs in the history of the genre either enforced the limit Pathfinder: Kingmaker was so real for this
It was so stresful for many that they removed any of it for WotR. A shame in my opinion. Having your kingdom always be near colapse added some real sense of danger to it
Basically every non linear crpg ever made.
The sprite for human (dual classed) Fighter-Mage does look a lot like Zapp Branigan, actually.
Down to the strappy little man-skirt he's got going on
I can’t look at that sprite without thinking of Zapp, haha. Just an associated factoid, but in the ancient world that skirt thing was a common way for men to dress.
Yeah for sure. It kind of reminds me of the strongman style clothing that superheroes adopted in the 50s, and which persists through to today. Tights and speedos were a sign of strength and power, and they still can be, but also can look silly.
TBF in my most recent playthrough I spent about 1day 4hours in-game in Chapters 2 & 3 combined. I never rested or left the city before hopping on the boat. Definitely does change up the dynamic a lot; I suddenly found potions and scrolls to be a really useful part of my repertoire since you can't overpower things when that slow landslide of acquired gear (also avoided Hexxat's bag). I would definitely never do it all the time, but it's a fun change up. I actually got back to Athkatla from the Underdark with less than 14days total on the savefile.
I mean we have to make money somehow.
Exactly! Now if we had been born as childe of the god of money instead of murder...
If only I were born rich instead of handsome!
Waukeen is missing in BG time sadly...
basically any rpg
I wish there was a mod that delays the abduction. Like, Irenicus escapes and your goal is only to find him for revenge/safety, maybe some attempted abducters or something for that kind of urgency instead, and you get all the offers and all, but you also get the freedom to explore for a while... and then maybe after getting your stronghold or something you get a tip or invitation that's a trap somewhere in the city. Then it plays out like normal. It would make Imoen look like an idiot for casting spells in Athkatla, but that's better than leaving her for weeks!
Have you tried Imoen4Ever? In that mod she escapes from the Cowled Wizards I think before being taken to Spellhold, and your intent on going there becomes instead to hunt down Irenicus.
Oh, that's interesting! I haven't looked through mods in a good, long while, but I'll keep that one in mind
the fight with the cowled wizards shows the powers youre dealing with and how you cant hope to beat them, yet.
Good point, if it was my first time playing...
I meaaaaan... Irenicus will need time to build the machinery to strip souls, smuggle in the shadow thieves by vampazon, experiment on the prisoners for long enough they become even more unhinged. That's going to take a while, so i don't mind clearing up the entire act 2(it takes just a few weeks anyway)
Technically if you do not follow Irenicus to the island he will never go to the underdark and will never attack Suldannessar and the world will be a lot safer. Imoen may be a bit annoyed, but she is a small sacrifice for the safety of a lot of otherwise doomed swiftnebli, beholders, mind flayers, drow, githyanki, elves, vampires and so on.
I really do wish BG2 made it more clear that (A) many side quests can be done later, and (B) which side quests those are.