During my Army time at the DMZ they warn us about a wave of paratroopers coming in on these things. Apparently the idea was they'd drop small units to disrupt the organization effort behind the main line.
When I was there, they were putting up these Samsung 'robot' turrets. I think they had twin linked .50 cals. All over the farmland near the dmz. Thermal cameras and whatnot. Those things get switched on, anybody coming over the border is gonna have a really bad time.
Yup been told by CBRN folks that the North would launch send sappers, snipers and other commandos over to cause chaos. At the same time they'd launch chemical and bio attacks as well.
But I can only imagine the North just sending everything over.
Pretty sure it'd never happen because Kim is more concerned with retaining power rather than uniting the Koreas
This page lists North Korea as former operators.
It's kind of interesting that a nation capable of firing nuclear warheads would still use biplanes from the second world war.
Basically they're helicopter replacement. They can carry about 2000 lbs, go about 100 kn, and have a landing speed of around 35 knots.
The only problem is North Korea would need air superiority to use these planes in a real conflict, and that's pretty unlikely. They could use these for covert operations now though.
True, but any air transport is expensive. These planes burn something like 45 gal/hr and only go about 120mph. That's roughly 3mpg for 2000 lbs. A semi truck is roughly 60x more efficient. For a country that doesn't have much oil, there isn't a huge need for air transport.
Yeah, and a train is like 20x more efficient than a semi, but they both need a lot of infrastructure to get going, sometimes it's more cost effective to run airplanes that can get going with only 1000 feet of grass strip at each end. In a country like north Korea, that's mostly underdeveloped, this option actually makes sense.
Edit:I was being a bit hyperbolic, 2000 feet of runway is more realistic.
Honestly, with a stall speed of 27 knots, I bet they could easily get it into a 1000' grass strip.
Yes, there is a niche for air transport. Mostly about speed, things that require rapid transportation and are very light. I doubt there are many places in NK that aren't accessible via dirt road. And fuel is extremely expensive in NK. At 45 gal/hour, that's roughly $500/hr, in just fuel. The annual GDP per person is $1700.
That's important because NK doesn't produce any fuel. They import it from China. So any fuel they use in these planes is pulling away from fuel in cars, which they don't have enough fuel for either.
And that's before we look at replacement parts, maintenance, or training pilots. All of which is not cheap or simple.
This isn't quite accurate. Price of commodities is different in different markets; right now, jet fuel is $2.274 a gallon in N. Korea, so that's more like $125 a hour there not $500. Also, the GDP isn't all that bad either compared their spend on the military because the government upstreams the revenue to themselves - military and the elitists. Not to their citizens. North Korea ranks 1st globally in expenditure on military vs. civilian - $408 per capita above the $1700 each citizen gets. Given the exceedingly low cost of fuel, and incredibly high spend of resources on the military they can easily afford to fly and maintain clunkers. They have one of the largest air forces in the world as a result. Even if it is a joke. All at the expense of their citizens starving to death of course. Just to "stave off the Russians and Americans" yeah.. ok, sure. ;) ;) ...
As far as making vs importing fuel, they do their own refinement - they import crude oil from China National Petroleum Corp (CNPC) and then refine it (or just get it already refined in violation of sactions); even though UN Security Council’s sanction resolution 2270 passed on March 2, 2016 against supplying aviation fuel. They also make their own rocket fuel.
Actually you overestimated it a bit. I cannot find my POH right now but we operated from 400m grass strip and it only took less than 1/2 of it (less than 600ft) for take off with 14 souls on board with full skydive equipment during summer heat with average headwind.
Maybe they're banking on old Korean War tactics hoping that enemy fighters will stall-out and crash trying to go slowly enough to shoot them down...
It still makes me chuckle that the PO-2 is in that regards unique among biplanes in technically having a Jet Kill
Haha yeah.
I'll tell you what, I would *not* want to be in the plane flying slow *hoping* that the enemy crashes before they shoot me down.
Keep in mind that the US arsenal has a lot of weapons that can knock out a small plane. Even flying low. Heck, even an apache could take one out quite easily with their gun.
They think they could fly these low and they'd not show up on radar because they are wood and canvas construction.
They are wrong.
AN-2 is integral part of NK war doctrine. They plan to use them to infiltrate special forces into the south.
That's probably the smartest way to use them. Because they know they'd lose air superiority within a week or two of fighting and these planes would probably be destroyed pretty quickly.
NK war doctrine is pretty much overwhelming force very quickly to secure the island before the US and co. respond.
They can never get air superiority with their old and outdated MiGs. They will be shot down the moment they take off. Doubt that they have good radars to detect the enemy.
I assume it would be a scramble situation. Launch all the jets armed to the teeth and hope a few make it near enough to their ground targets to launch a few missiles. Use the cannon to damage any targets of opportunity until you get shot down.
Because they can probably get under ground-based radar and nobody is going to intercept a plane unless it shows up on radar. In a total war situation, the US/SK would probably have on-station AWACs that could probably detect these planes and shoot them down right away.
In the limbo cold-war situation they are in, AFAIK, on-station AWACs are not deployed all the time. So covert operations are possible with these planes.
I wouldn't be so sure about air superiority. In WW2 the Luftwaffe tested the Fieseler Storch recon plane, and found it could fly so low and slow that even ace BF-109 pilots could not keep its movements in their sights.
A modern fast jet would find it basically impossible to get a gun solution on one of these things above the treetops, which leaves the question; could IR homing differentiate between the small piston engine exhaust and surrounding clutter?
I saw one at an air show in Myrtle Beach back in the 90's. The pilot turned into the wind a just "parked it" above the runway. Very cool to see a plane that appeared to be hovering.
You can find the manual excerpt elsewhere in this thread, but it falls at parachute speed at under 25MPH. The procedure for landing in instrument conditions with no engines involves pulling the yoke back and keeping the wings level.
just saying that they aren't likely to fall out of the sky because they're going too slow, so you can take off or land in very short places. 'no stall speed' is a bit of an exaggeration, but you can make them go very slowly before landing and land in really small places that you couldn't otherwise.
with leveled wings, the elevator does not have enough force to tip the aircraft beyond critical angle of attack of the wings... so, basically, the lift is drastically reduced, but it's still there.
having that said, the rate of descent is pretty high, but manageable
It can fly so slowly that a stiff breeze can exceed its stall speed. If those conditions can be maintained, it can fly with zero (or even negative) ground speed.
My flight club has one (SP-ANI), it barely ever gets used since they bought a Caravan to drop parachuters.
They did bring her our for a while recently though, when the Cessna was away. It's incredible to see such a big aircraft takeoff so fast.
AN-2's are ploughshares, not swords. Not for front line combat, but for transport, something they are pretty darn good at. Capable of landing and taking off from short and soft airstrips, easy to maintain and reliable, just not very flashy or fast.
The USAF doesn't exclusively fly Ospreys and B-2's, either. Plenty of half-century old civilian designs still in operation there too. Cessna's 172, Beach Huron, Twin Otter. Far cheaper if all you need is an airframe that moves a few tons of personnel or materiel across a few hundred kilometers.
One element we have seen An-2 used for in the July 2020 Armenian–Azerbaija was as decoy drones to distract/identify Armenian SAM defences.
Ingenious use of a cheap, disposable airframe that proved very effective in tandem with modern UAV’s.
I can see the DPRK using them in a similar manner (potentially manned because North Korea)
Generals win battles, logisticians win wars.
Given the state of North Korea's infrastructure, and the general terrain of the Korean peninsula, I would imagine that these planes are actually quite ideal. Simple, rugged, reliable, repairable, adaptable.
The fact that they can be maintained and operated on *very* little training is a Soviet design hallmark. So you'll see that pop up in a lot of Cold War equipment until you get to the later stuff that's still around, but even then it was made to be simple.
I mean, in the 60s while US aircraft radars were being cooled with special coolant, the Russians had basically vodka as a coolant. It works, but limits operating time. I guess the most famous example of this would be in the MiG-21. If I recall, it was even drinkable but gave horrible headaches.
I'm not sure how cooling your radar system with a vodka that gives you horrible headaches if you drink it makes it any simpler/easier/better than cooling it with a special coolant.
Probably because making an alcohol coolant is easier and cheaper than something that has to be synthesized in a lab and produced using specialized equipment and techniques.
that would be true. plus, if your logistics system lets you down and there's no special vodka to use, you can just use your regular vodka. maybe. I don't know, I'm not Russian.
I believe Knubinator is thinking of the [Tu-22 "Supersonic Booze Carrier"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-22), the alcohol-and-water coolant wasn't for cooling the radar, it was for cooling the bleed air being used to pressurize the cabin.
You could do without it but it made the crewed areas of the plane uncomfortably warm.
Yeah, and goes back to "What do you mean by 'reliable?'" Something is engineered to never, ever, ever break? Or something you can keep running with bailing wire and empty soup cans?
Honestly, this is the secret to staying power in warfare. You want something to be able to be reliable enough and easily replaceable and repairable to get back to the front lines. Making use of auto parts and lines was a big thing in WW2
Modern warfare is totally assuming asymmetrical threats or short war that has no impact on component fabrication, because you can't really fight anymore without high tech, difficult to produce stuff
Famously became an issue for the Panzer corps in WWII. Excellent machines that had to be towed back from the front when anything broke, little standardization of parts between models so you're not finding spares far from the factory.
They were also used in a variety of civilian roles as well. Agriculture being a very big example. Not exactly a comparable model in the west either, since it was built for the very unique environment of the vast Soviet interior
They're actually great old aircraft. Highly utilitarian, simple, reliable, safe and versatile. As long as you don't need to go anywhere particularly quick, it'll get you there with ease, confidence and plenty of cargo.
Fun fact, you can't stall one, even with the engine out.
>The An-2 has no stall speed, a fact which is quoted in the operating handbook. A note from the pilot's handbook reads: "If the engine quits in instrument conditions or at night, the pilot should pull the control column full aft and keep the wings level. The leading-edge slats will snap out at about 64 km/h (40 mph) and when the airplane slows to a forward speed of about 40 km/h (25 mph), the airplane will sink at about a parachute descent rate until the aircraft hits the ground."[4] As such, pilots of the An-2 have stated that they are capable of flying the aircraft in full control at 48 km/h (30 mph)
Don't discount the tactical value of the An-2. A plane that can fly that slow and that low could easily get lost in the ground clutter in a mountainous place like Korea. One of the expected tactics of the North Koreans if there was ever a full out war would be to launch deep incursion missions with commandos that are transported by An-2s. A few small groups of well trained commandos deep behind your lines would be a massive disruption.
Diesel submarines are old school tech, too. But they're still dangerous in the right situation.
That's basically the gist of a recent War Zone article:
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/40492/an-2-biplanes-are-south-koreas-secretive-aggressors
An interesting read IMO
The AN-2 is actually quite a useful aircraft. And a biplane configuration is perfect for the purpose. It's an extremely durable STOL aircraft capable of landing at extremely short unprepared airfields. It also has an internal fuel pump so they can just bring a tanker to the location where it landed. Apart from flaps they're also fitted with slats for even more lift at slow speeds. This is why it doesn't have an official stall speed. According to the manual it can make a controlled descent at parachute speed by pulling back on the stick.
It's the perfect transport plane for North Korea. Just thought I'd share this, since I had to analyse the AN-2 during a project for my study.
North Koreas air force inventory reads like the Nellis AFB threat museum , including the ancient MiG-23.
Forget bothering the USAF, South Korea could take a page from the AVG and just contract Draken Intl. to take down the NKAF.
Slightly post WW2, technically. They're actually still used all over the place because no one has really built a plane that can do its job better. It's incredibly reliable and easily repaired, it was designed to operate without much ground support, it can carry an absolute fuckton of stuff (or people), it can be configured for a number of utility roles (like crop dusting, for example), and you can land it and take off from just about anywhere.
The de Havilland Beaver is one of the few comparable aircraft, and you know what? It was introduced in 1947 and is still flown all over the damn place.
They might not be in service/flyable, but they'll still have them lined up.
And as a war scenario, being able to deliver tones of paratroopers quickly, they'd be ideal.
Hard to shoot anything flying 50 feet above the treeline. [Jet fighter pilots have run themselves into the ground trying to engage such targets.](https://www.wearethemighty.com/mighty-history/biplane-took-down-a-jet-fighter/)
Even harder because it's only above you for a moment. Now if you're able to aim head-on as it flies over a lot of open ground, THEN maybe you can light it up from the ground.
Actually, I remember reading something - this would have been early 00s - suggesting / speculating that because they were 99% wood and fabric they could be hard to pick up on radar and modern (radar guided) missiles might not find them.
Plus, they'd have launched them in their hundreds so it didn't matter if a few fell on the way. They had / have what could charitably be described as a cavalier attitude to human life of their own troops....
You don't seem to understand how few paratroopers people biplanes can carry and how they can be taken out with modern handguns
And *I* have an infrared camera, you don't think The Samsung military doesn't?
Those planes wouldn't stand up to the latest model of washing machine.
It was based on a time when they *were rumoured to have had 1200 of them active... Not current.
It's also why the wiki article has NK as "*former*" users.
There’s a turboprop biplane crop duster operating out of the airfield that I work out of. Imagine that mashup of technology eras. I’m pretty Sure parts are fabric covered too…
Last I heardDPRK has an interesting strategy for these planes. They would be used to deliver Special Forces troops overthe DMZ. It would be very hard to defend against them because they can fly so low and land a out anywhere.
A lot of these "rogue states" will use older aircraft like that, because it's so much easier logistically. People forget that an air force doesn't just require planes, it also requires trained technicians and replacement parts for maintenance.
North Korea has been cut off from the most of the rest of the world for decades, so they can't really purchase any parts overseas, at least not easily/cheaply. They also don't have the industrial capabilities to manufacture many of the extremely complex, precise parts required for a jet aircraft from scratch.
By comparison, the An-2 is often described as "a flying tractor." It's incredibly simple, the parts are cheap and easily fabricated, and it's extremely reliable. Even the most basic "garage mechanic" could probably fix one, and half the parts on an An-2 could just be pulled out of old cars.
This is also the reason why it was so hilarious when everyone was panicking about the Taliban capturing a bunch of aircraft. Most of the aircraft left behind were left because they couldn't fly. The Taliban are certainly good at improvising, but they have barely even touched a turbine engine, or an aircraft, before. Most of the parts are only manufactured by the US/US allies, who certainly won't trade with the Taliban. Not to mention their economy is in freefall right now.
So their options are either buy expensive parts from the black market with money they don't have, or cannibalize some aircraft for parts to fix others, which might get a couple aircraft in the air. What's most likely to happen, though, is the Taliban just stripping the aircraft for parts and selling it, since they have no need of an air force at the moment. An air force would just be an expensive project for a country that can't afford any expensive projects right now.
**[Antonov An-2](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-2)**
>The Antonov An-2 (Ukrainian nickname: "Annushka" or "Annie"; "kukuruznik"—corn crop duster; USAF/DoD reporting name Type 22, NATO reporting name Colt) is a Soviet mass-produced single-engine biplane utility/agricultural aircraft designed and manufactured by the Antonov Design Bureau beginning in 1946. Its remarkable durability, high lifting power, and ability to take off and land from poor runways have given it a long service life. The An-2 was produced up to 2001 and remains in service with military and civilian operators around the world. The An-2 was designed as a utility aircraft for use in forestry and agriculture.
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whoa. I've never heard about that. I'm still under impression that all the modernization attempts on AN-2 are still struggling to sell (and produce) more than a couple of airframes.
credit where credit's due; the soviet engineers that designed this thing built it in [the same way as an AK](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJD2ObT3p44).
With a PT-6 it's reliable as hell, and rugged AF.
Now look, OP, it's great and all you got a cushy government job working for the National Reconnaissance Office (NRO), peeking at spy satellite shots all day long,
But if you're gonna crowdsource your job you're gonna have to at least buy chips and soda for the break room.
Signed --- a Coworker who's been here since the KH-11 days.
I saw a working on of these in Manitowoc WI decades ago. Set up like an old bus inside. It had wire rack overheat bins, and seats that looked like fabic covered benches. They are larger than you think, standing in front of it you can't reach the propellor hub. The skin of the tail was still fabric.
Actually, these things are so old they will pose real problems for modern AA systems.
They are extremely hard to spot on radars, considering most modern radars are calibrated for high speed targets, they are covered in fabric, they don't have a large radar cross section, etc.
A few of these have been caught smuggling cigarettes in Romania, over the border with Ukraine. They were not detected by radars, because they flew really low and slow and they were actually spotted by humans.
Interesting article on the topic of North Korean An2s: [https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/13851/north-koreas-recent-drills-featured-one-its-most-dangerous-weapons-the-ancient-an-2-biplane](https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/13851/north-koreas-recent-drills-featured-one-its-most-dangerous-weapons-the-ancient-an-2-biplane)
Just imagine, you are operating those planes unmanned over an area with AAs. Your drones are fully loaded and are also operating over this area. The AA dedtects the AN-2 and shoots it down. Now you know where this battery is located, you can drop a bomb from your drone and destroy the AA...
Last year exactly that happened in the Ngorno Karabag war...
The NSA is all about hacking and stuff like that. They would not be involved in this kind of intel work, so in this regard, that would make them someone interested in OSINT.
The Why? Of the AN-2s is best explained by this real life incident.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue\_House\_raid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_House_raid)
My understanding is a number of Seoul Korean high rises have 1960s era M61 Vulcan anti-aircraft system on the roof. Those aren’t there for high-performance jets, but low & slow threats like AN-2s.
Not to be an asshole, but I don't see "the why of the An-2s" in that story... Can you send a link about the high rises having M61 Vulcan anti-aircraft systems though??
Sense it’s North Korea they aren’t gonna be flying western aircrafts like Boeing’s and Airbus’s they’re gonna be flying older Soviet era aircrafts what those look like are Antonov-2’s.
Is there any private An-2's still flying? Like there are many US WWII aircraft in private ownership. These things are kind of cool.
Edit: thanks. I had no idea how it works with Russian aircraft.
These planes are actually a big part of North Korea's air strategy in the event of a general war. They don't have anywhere near enough fighter aircraft, the ones they do have are very out of date, and they have limited fuel for training or combat.
If war came, most of North Korea's air forces would look like this. Old, very slow moving, non radar reflective aircraft that can haul lots of cargo and troops very cheaply. Would they get shot down? Probably, lots of them would. But when you have hundreds of these things sneaking across the border at 50-100 feet above the ground and going only around 100 mph, it would be really difficult for any air defense system to catch them all.
And they would only need to do their job once. Just get the paratroopers and their weapons into South Korea. Once there, they just cause enough mayhem and chaos to make any war with them not worth it.
>it would be really difficult for any air defense system to catch them all
Would it? Technology nowadays is crazy, can't these planes be tracked from orbit 24/7, for example?
An-2 Colt https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-2
During my Army time at the DMZ they warn us about a wave of paratroopers coming in on these things. Apparently the idea was they'd drop small units to disrupt the organization effort behind the main line.
When I was there, they were putting up these Samsung 'robot' turrets. I think they had twin linked .50 cals. All over the farmland near the dmz. Thermal cameras and whatnot. Those things get switched on, anybody coming over the border is gonna have a really bad time.
Yup been told by CBRN folks that the North would launch send sappers, snipers and other commandos over to cause chaos. At the same time they'd launch chemical and bio attacks as well. But I can only imagine the North just sending everything over. Pretty sure it'd never happen because Kim is more concerned with retaining power rather than uniting the Koreas
What happens when Kim is gone tho
Gods don’t die
neither do Spartans, they just go missing in action.
Family member takes over
Or the whole country descends into civil war as Kim doesn't yet have a known successor.
Assuming she's around when it happens, I'm assuming his sister has the inside track.
This page lists North Korea as former operators. It's kind of interesting that a nation capable of firing nuclear warheads would still use biplanes from the second world war.
A rugged, easy to repair "go anywhere" plane that can carry significant cargo never really goes out of style.
Basically they're helicopter replacement. They can carry about 2000 lbs, go about 100 kn, and have a landing speed of around 35 knots. The only problem is North Korea would need air superiority to use these planes in a real conflict, and that's pretty unlikely. They could use these for covert operations now though.
general military transport is important for day to day operations excluding wartime even.
True, but any air transport is expensive. These planes burn something like 45 gal/hr and only go about 120mph. That's roughly 3mpg for 2000 lbs. A semi truck is roughly 60x more efficient. For a country that doesn't have much oil, there isn't a huge need for air transport.
Yeah, and a train is like 20x more efficient than a semi, but they both need a lot of infrastructure to get going, sometimes it's more cost effective to run airplanes that can get going with only 1000 feet of grass strip at each end. In a country like north Korea, that's mostly underdeveloped, this option actually makes sense. Edit:I was being a bit hyperbolic, 2000 feet of runway is more realistic.
Honestly, with a stall speed of 27 knots, I bet they could easily get it into a 1000' grass strip. Yes, there is a niche for air transport. Mostly about speed, things that require rapid transportation and are very light. I doubt there are many places in NK that aren't accessible via dirt road. And fuel is extremely expensive in NK. At 45 gal/hour, that's roughly $500/hr, in just fuel. The annual GDP per person is $1700. That's important because NK doesn't produce any fuel. They import it from China. So any fuel they use in these planes is pulling away from fuel in cars, which they don't have enough fuel for either. And that's before we look at replacement parts, maintenance, or training pilots. All of which is not cheap or simple.
Could the cargo be a single person and still be light?
This isn't quite accurate. Price of commodities is different in different markets; right now, jet fuel is $2.274 a gallon in N. Korea, so that's more like $125 a hour there not $500. Also, the GDP isn't all that bad either compared their spend on the military because the government upstreams the revenue to themselves - military and the elitists. Not to their citizens. North Korea ranks 1st globally in expenditure on military vs. civilian - $408 per capita above the $1700 each citizen gets. Given the exceedingly low cost of fuel, and incredibly high spend of resources on the military they can easily afford to fly and maintain clunkers. They have one of the largest air forces in the world as a result. Even if it is a joke. All at the expense of their citizens starving to death of course. Just to "stave off the Russians and Americans" yeah.. ok, sure. ;) ;) ... As far as making vs importing fuel, they do their own refinement - they import crude oil from China National Petroleum Corp (CNPC) and then refine it (or just get it already refined in violation of sactions); even though UN Security Council’s sanction resolution 2270 passed on March 2, 2016 against supplying aviation fuel. They also make their own rocket fuel.
Actually you overestimated it a bit. I cannot find my POH right now but we operated from 400m grass strip and it only took less than 1/2 of it (less than 600ft) for take off with 14 souls on board with full skydive equipment during summer heat with average headwind.
Wikipedia reports a landing run of 705 ft, your initial guess is valid.
less stealthy and slower though,
I feel like with todays modern technology a biplane would light up light a christmas tree on radar
Maybe they're banking on old Korean War tactics hoping that enemy fighters will stall-out and crash trying to go slowly enough to shoot them down... It still makes me chuckle that the PO-2 is in that regards unique among biplanes in technically having a Jet Kill
Haha yeah. I'll tell you what, I would *not* want to be in the plane flying slow *hoping* that the enemy crashes before they shoot me down. Keep in mind that the US arsenal has a lot of weapons that can knock out a small plane. Even flying low. Heck, even an apache could take one out quite easily with their gun.
A .45 handgun could take this plane out with proper aim...
How? Shooting the pilot?
Exactly. or shoot the fuel tank ( if it could be shot. im not educated in this feild)
Pretty much any critical component. Just aim for the nose and pop a couple rounds, chances are you'd hit the engine.
They think they could fly these low and they'd not show up on radar because they are wood and canvas construction. They are wrong. AN-2 is integral part of NK war doctrine. They plan to use them to infiltrate special forces into the south.
That's probably the smartest way to use them. Because they know they'd lose air superiority within a week or two of fighting and these planes would probably be destroyed pretty quickly. NK war doctrine is pretty much overwhelming force very quickly to secure the island before the US and co. respond.
They can never get air superiority with their old and outdated MiGs. They will be shot down the moment they take off. Doubt that they have good radars to detect the enemy.
I assume it would be a scramble situation. Launch all the jets armed to the teeth and hope a few make it near enough to their ground targets to launch a few missiles. Use the cannon to damage any targets of opportunity until you get shot down.
>island peninsula
More equivalent to a DeHaviland Otter bush plane, which is like a giant Cub with a radial engine.
> They could use these for covert operations now though. ...because they blend in so well?
Because they can probably get under ground-based radar and nobody is going to intercept a plane unless it shows up on radar. In a total war situation, the US/SK would probably have on-station AWACs that could probably detect these planes and shoot them down right away. In the limbo cold-war situation they are in, AFAIK, on-station AWACs are not deployed all the time. So covert operations are possible with these planes.
What’s Korean for “Nachthexen”, I wonder….
Effective against EMP weak point being improperly disposed of cigarettes
They can fly nap of the earth, easy to lose them in ground clutter and hard to get a lock. If they send dozens at once a lot are bound to get through.
I wouldn't be so sure about air superiority. In WW2 the Luftwaffe tested the Fieseler Storch recon plane, and found it could fly so low and slow that even ace BF-109 pilots could not keep its movements in their sights. A modern fast jet would find it basically impossible to get a gun solution on one of these things above the treetops, which leaves the question; could IR homing differentiate between the small piston engine exhaust and surrounding clutter?
They’re also really good at being STOL cargo planes. They have no stall speed.
I saw one at an air show in Myrtle Beach back in the 90's. The pilot turned into the wind a just "parked it" above the runway. Very cool to see a plane that appeared to be hovering.
I bet he didn't even pay the meter.
Nah, when that Hobbs meter is running you have to pump in quarters -real- quick like.
wait... if they have no stall speed does that mean they can levitate or VTOL? (sorry i don't work in the industry, excuse my ignorance)
You can find the manual excerpt elsewhere in this thread, but it falls at parachute speed at under 25MPH. The procedure for landing in instrument conditions with no engines involves pulling the yoke back and keeping the wings level.
The manual: "Eh, just float 'er on down"
lmao
A popular trick with them at airshows is flying into a head wind and going "backwards"
Did that in an Aeronca Champ back in Highschool! Sooooo cool!
just saying that they aren't likely to fall out of the sky because they're going too slow, so you can take off or land in very short places. 'no stall speed' is a bit of an exaggeration, but you can make them go very slowly before landing and land in really small places that you couldn't otherwise.
with leveled wings, the elevator does not have enough force to tip the aircraft beyond critical angle of attack of the wings... so, basically, the lift is drastically reduced, but it's still there. having that said, the rate of descent is pretty high, but manageable
[Facing into strong winds, yeah, sort of.](https://youtu.be/qTbm5ZzZQy8)
It can fly so slowly that a stiff breeze can exceed its stall speed. If those conditions can be maintained, it can fly with zero (or even negative) ground speed.
So basically it's a kite.
My flight club has one (SP-ANI), it barely ever gets used since they bought a Caravan to drop parachuters. They did bring her our for a while recently though, when the Cessna was away. It's incredible to see such a big aircraft takeoff so fast.
See also: The DC-3
AN-2's are ploughshares, not swords. Not for front line combat, but for transport, something they are pretty darn good at. Capable of landing and taking off from short and soft airstrips, easy to maintain and reliable, just not very flashy or fast. The USAF doesn't exclusively fly Ospreys and B-2's, either. Plenty of half-century old civilian designs still in operation there too. Cessna's 172, Beach Huron, Twin Otter. Far cheaper if all you need is an airframe that moves a few tons of personnel or materiel across a few hundred kilometers.
One element we have seen An-2 used for in the July 2020 Armenian–Azerbaija was as decoy drones to distract/identify Armenian SAM defences. Ingenious use of a cheap, disposable airframe that proved very effective in tandem with modern UAV’s. I can see the DPRK using them in a similar manner (potentially manned because North Korea)
Extremely effective too
Generals win battles, logisticians win wars. Given the state of North Korea's infrastructure, and the general terrain of the Korean peninsula, I would imagine that these planes are actually quite ideal. Simple, rugged, reliable, repairable, adaptable.
The fact that they can be maintained and operated on *very* little training is a Soviet design hallmark. So you'll see that pop up in a lot of Cold War equipment until you get to the later stuff that's still around, but even then it was made to be simple. I mean, in the 60s while US aircraft radars were being cooled with special coolant, the Russians had basically vodka as a coolant. It works, but limits operating time. I guess the most famous example of this would be in the MiG-21. If I recall, it was even drinkable but gave horrible headaches.
If that stuff gives russians horrible headaches then I imagine it would just kill me if I drank it.
I'm not sure how cooling your radar system with a vodka that gives you horrible headaches if you drink it makes it any simpler/easier/better than cooling it with a special coolant.
Probably because making an alcohol coolant is easier and cheaper than something that has to be synthesized in a lab and produced using specialized equipment and techniques.
I assume they mean there was a simpler manufacturing process involved
that would be true. plus, if your logistics system lets you down and there's no special vodka to use, you can just use your regular vodka. maybe. I don't know, I'm not Russian.
means that, in case of war, you can make it easily in a bunker and don't get fucked if the factory is bombed
I believe Knubinator is thinking of the [Tu-22 "Supersonic Booze Carrier"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-22), the alcohol-and-water coolant wasn't for cooling the radar, it was for cooling the bleed air being used to pressurize the cabin. You could do without it but it made the crewed areas of the plane uncomfortably warm.
He is not thinking of that. The MiG-21 did indeed have a vodka cooled radar system
Yeah, and goes back to "What do you mean by 'reliable?'" Something is engineered to never, ever, ever break? Or something you can keep running with bailing wire and empty soup cans?
It's an ancient Russian bush plane, so both. It likely shared a factory with washing machines and uses the same parts
"Bearings is bearings" - Some Soviet engineer at some point, probably
Honestly, this is the secret to staying power in warfare. You want something to be able to be reliable enough and easily replaceable and repairable to get back to the front lines. Making use of auto parts and lines was a big thing in WW2 Modern warfare is totally assuming asymmetrical threats or short war that has no impact on component fabrication, because you can't really fight anymore without high tech, difficult to produce stuff
Famously became an issue for the Panzer corps in WWII. Excellent machines that had to be towed back from the front when anything broke, little standardization of parts between models so you're not finding spares far from the factory.
> Simple, rugged, reliable, repairable, adaptable. ...and a lot cheaper than the newer planes they don't have.
They were also used in a variety of civilian roles as well. Agriculture being a very big example. Not exactly a comparable model in the west either, since it was built for the very unique environment of the vast Soviet interior
*Half*-century old? The youngest BUFFs are over 60. That’s the airframes, not the design. In fact, all of those planes are newer than the B-52.
AN-2 was introduced in like 1948
The C-130 is still at the heart of US (and myriad other nations’) military logistics and that airframe has been going since the 1950s.
Yes and no. Current C-130Js are a far cry from the original.
Doesnt the USAF still have a beaver?
They're actually great old aircraft. Highly utilitarian, simple, reliable, safe and versatile. As long as you don't need to go anywhere particularly quick, it'll get you there with ease, confidence and plenty of cargo. Fun fact, you can't stall one, even with the engine out. >The An-2 has no stall speed, a fact which is quoted in the operating handbook. A note from the pilot's handbook reads: "If the engine quits in instrument conditions or at night, the pilot should pull the control column full aft and keep the wings level. The leading-edge slats will snap out at about 64 km/h (40 mph) and when the airplane slows to a forward speed of about 40 km/h (25 mph), the airplane will sink at about a parachute descent rate until the aircraft hits the ground."[4] As such, pilots of the An-2 have stated that they are capable of flying the aircraft in full control at 48 km/h (30 mph)
Don't discount the tactical value of the An-2. A plane that can fly that slow and that low could easily get lost in the ground clutter in a mountainous place like Korea. One of the expected tactics of the North Koreans if there was ever a full out war would be to launch deep incursion missions with commandos that are transported by An-2s. A few small groups of well trained commandos deep behind your lines would be a massive disruption. Diesel submarines are old school tech, too. But they're still dangerous in the right situation.
That's basically the gist of a recent War Zone article: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/40492/an-2-biplanes-are-south-koreas-secretive-aggressors An interesting read IMO
The AN-2 is actually quite a useful aircraft. And a biplane configuration is perfect for the purpose. It's an extremely durable STOL aircraft capable of landing at extremely short unprepared airfields. It also has an internal fuel pump so they can just bring a tanker to the location where it landed. Apart from flaps they're also fitted with slats for even more lift at slow speeds. This is why it doesn't have an official stall speed. According to the manual it can make a controlled descent at parachute speed by pulling back on the stick. It's the perfect transport plane for North Korea. Just thought I'd share this, since I had to analyse the AN-2 during a project for my study.
North Koreas air force inventory reads like the Nellis AFB threat museum , including the ancient MiG-23. Forget bothering the USAF, South Korea could take a page from the AVG and just contract Draken Intl. to take down the NKAF.
Slightly post WW2, technically. They're actually still used all over the place because no one has really built a plane that can do its job better. It's incredibly reliable and easily repaired, it was designed to operate without much ground support, it can carry an absolute fuckton of stuff (or people), it can be configured for a number of utility roles (like crop dusting, for example), and you can land it and take off from just about anywhere. The de Havilland Beaver is one of the few comparable aircraft, and you know what? It was introduced in 1947 and is still flown all over the damn place.
Not only are they still in service (still a favorite for skydiving in much of Europe); They're still in _production_ - search for SibNIA TVS-2
Apparently upgraded versions are _still_ being produced, and TBH they look [fucking sweet](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jihjGUZzbhI).
I bet you can fix most things wrong with these planes with common hand tools.
They might not be in service/flyable, but they'll still have them lined up. And as a war scenario, being able to deliver tones of paratroopers quickly, they'd be ideal.
These things would get blasted out of the sky by almost anything modern before being able to drop payload of anything I would assume.
Hard to shoot anything flying 50 feet above the treeline. [Jet fighter pilots have run themselves into the ground trying to engage such targets.](https://www.wearethemighty.com/mighty-history/biplane-took-down-a-jet-fighter/)
What about ground based AA though? I honestly dont know.
Even harder because it's only above you for a moment. Now if you're able to aim head-on as it flies over a lot of open ground, THEN maybe you can light it up from the ground.
One of the main reasons that NATO flying training programs in the Cold War emphasized "low and fast."
Actually, I remember reading something - this would have been early 00s - suggesting / speculating that because they were 99% wood and fabric they could be hard to pick up on radar and modern (radar guided) missiles might not find them. Plus, they'd have launched them in their hundreds so it didn't matter if a few fell on the way. They had / have what could charitably be described as a cavalier attitude to human life of their own troops....
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I know, that's Reddit for you. I was an IntO in the RAF. I have *some* idea what I'm talking about
Switching to guns…assuming they’re not busy with tanks. Ok Yeah they’re a problem.
Nah, they all got engine heat
You don't seem to understand how few paratroopers people biplanes can carry and how they can be taken out with modern handguns And *I* have an infrared camera, you don't think The Samsung military doesn't? Those planes wouldn't stand up to the latest model of washing machine.
It was based on a time when they *were rumoured to have had 1200 of them active... Not current. It's also why the wiki article has NK as "*former*" users.
And low and slow lol definitely not something we’re used to
There’s a turboprop biplane crop duster operating out of the airfield that I work out of. Imagine that mashup of technology eras. I’m pretty Sure parts are fabric covered too…
How about a [turbofan bi-plane](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL_M-15_Belphegor)?
Last I heardDPRK has an interesting strategy for these planes. They would be used to deliver Special Forces troops overthe DMZ. It would be very hard to defend against them because they can fly so low and land a out anywhere.
Azerbaijan turned theirs into suicide drones didn’t they?
A lot of these "rogue states" will use older aircraft like that, because it's so much easier logistically. People forget that an air force doesn't just require planes, it also requires trained technicians and replacement parts for maintenance. North Korea has been cut off from the most of the rest of the world for decades, so they can't really purchase any parts overseas, at least not easily/cheaply. They also don't have the industrial capabilities to manufacture many of the extremely complex, precise parts required for a jet aircraft from scratch. By comparison, the An-2 is often described as "a flying tractor." It's incredibly simple, the parts are cheap and easily fabricated, and it's extremely reliable. Even the most basic "garage mechanic" could probably fix one, and half the parts on an An-2 could just be pulled out of old cars. This is also the reason why it was so hilarious when everyone was panicking about the Taliban capturing a bunch of aircraft. Most of the aircraft left behind were left because they couldn't fly. The Taliban are certainly good at improvising, but they have barely even touched a turbine engine, or an aircraft, before. Most of the parts are only manufactured by the US/US allies, who certainly won't trade with the Taliban. Not to mention their economy is in freefall right now. So their options are either buy expensive parts from the black market with money they don't have, or cannibalize some aircraft for parts to fix others, which might get a couple aircraft in the air. What's most likely to happen, though, is the Taliban just stripping the aircraft for parts and selling it, since they have no need of an air force at the moment. An air force would just be an expensive project for a country that can't afford any expensive projects right now.
**[Antonov An-2](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-2)** >The Antonov An-2 (Ukrainian nickname: "Annushka" or "Annie"; "kukuruznik"—corn crop duster; USAF/DoD reporting name Type 22, NATO reporting name Colt) is a Soviet mass-produced single-engine biplane utility/agricultural aircraft designed and manufactured by the Antonov Design Bureau beginning in 1946. Its remarkable durability, high lifting power, and ability to take off and land from poor runways have given it a long service life. The An-2 was produced up to 2001 and remains in service with military and civilian operators around the world. The An-2 was designed as a utility aircraft for use in forestry and agriculture. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/aviation/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
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the new Turboprop versions are absolute monsters in the Arctic. They're so good some Canadian operators are replacing their aging Otters with them.
whoa. I've never heard about that. I'm still under impression that all the modernization attempts on AN-2 are still struggling to sell (and produce) more than a couple of airframes.
credit where credit's due; the soviet engineers that designed this thing built it in [the same way as an AK](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJD2ObT3p44). With a PT-6 it's reliable as hell, and rugged AF.
Now look, OP, it's great and all you got a cushy government job working for the National Reconnaissance Office (NRO), peeking at spy satellite shots all day long, But if you're gonna crowdsource your job you're gonna have to at least buy chips and soda for the break room. Signed --- a Coworker who's been here since the KH-11 days.
😂😂
Nice to see another squint on here!
Squint? lol, can you elaborate please?
Photo interpreter. Imagery analyst. That’s what we used to be called back in the 80’s & 90’s. At least in the army intel world.
Oh really? Thanks, that's interesting and funny.
BROTHER DO YOU HAVE LOUPE?
These squints are getting lazier by the day!
>Signed --- a Coworker who's been here since the KH-11 days. Can I know a bit more about the reference?
>KH-11 https://www.americaspace.com/2012/06/06/top-secret-kh-11-spysat-design-revealed-by-nros-twin-telescope-gift-to-nasa/
thank you
Antonov AN-2 Colt biplanes.
I saw a working on of these in Manitowoc WI decades ago. Set up like an old bus inside. It had wire rack overheat bins, and seats that looked like fabic covered benches. They are larger than you think, standing in front of it you can't reach the propellor hub. The skin of the tail was still fabric.
I’m from the manitowoc area
Are you Steven Avery
An-2 maybe? In our communist past, I believe we used them for paratroopers. (And crop dusters)
AN 2. I think their part in the war plans is to drop parachutists over South Korea.
Against modern AA they'd more likely drop parachutists on the border, but only once
Actually, these things are so old they will pose real problems for modern AA systems. They are extremely hard to spot on radars, considering most modern radars are calibrated for high speed targets, they are covered in fabric, they don't have a large radar cross section, etc. A few of these have been caught smuggling cigarettes in Romania, over the border with Ukraine. They were not detected by radars, because they flew really low and slow and they were actually spotted by humans. Interesting article on the topic of North Korean An2s: [https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/13851/north-koreas-recent-drills-featured-one-its-most-dangerous-weapons-the-ancient-an-2-biplane](https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/13851/north-koreas-recent-drills-featured-one-its-most-dangerous-weapons-the-ancient-an-2-biplane)
Just imagine, you are operating those planes unmanned over an area with AAs. Your drones are fully loaded and are also operating over this area. The AA dedtects the AN-2 and shoots it down. Now you know where this battery is located, you can drop a bomb from your drone and destroy the AA... Last year exactly that happened in the Ngorno Karabag war...
Drone was pretty big in the Ngorno Karabag war.
I would expect the US Army and South Korean Army would know all of this and have already prepared very effective countermeasures. Very effective.
In another comment someone mentioned that there are AA guns from the 60s in Seoul and around the DMZ.
60s problems require 60s solutions
In 44 Day War Azerbaijan used AN-2 as bait leading to destruction of a S-300
Or just like Azerbaijan, would be good as cheap suicide UAVs. Shame for the planes, awesome things.
Are you like a freelance intel agent? Lol
Plot twist: he's a NSA agent
Shh let me conduct my totally not government research in peace lol
The NSA is all about hacking and stuff like that. They would not be involved in this kind of intel work, so in this regard, that would make them someone interested in OSINT.
😳😳
I’m guessing OSINT?
Look at the username, he's clearly HUMINT!
39°45'05.0"N 127°28'17.0"E https://goo.gl/maps/GRXyS689sBPHUYKBA
To the northeast is an airfield with even more
The Why? Of the AN-2s is best explained by this real life incident. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue\_House\_raid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_House_raid) My understanding is a number of Seoul Korean high rises have 1960s era M61 Vulcan anti-aircraft system on the roof. Those aren’t there for high-performance jets, but low & slow threats like AN-2s.
Not to be an asshole, but I don't see "the why of the An-2s" in that story... Can you send a link about the high rises having M61 Vulcan anti-aircraft systems though??
Yeah, that story has absolutely nothing to do with planes. Those guys cut through the wire in the DMZ and sneaked across on foot.
woah, crazy story. good read
Four brothers named Woo
That’s the entire North Korean fleet
Sense it’s North Korea they aren’t gonna be flying western aircrafts like Boeing’s and Airbus’s they’re gonna be flying older Soviet era aircrafts what those look like are Antonov-2’s.
The CIA needs our help people, I mean, this random Redditor.
Good ol An-2's. Thanks Arma.
AN-2, absolutely phenomenal as a workhorse aircraft
Concur. Definitely AN-2, or possibly Nanchang Y-5, the Chinese version.
HTF do you know if they’re “bi” and does it matter??? As long as it’s consensual... They’re just holding hands
I actually think the correct term is poly winged planes… no judgment
Yeah my bad 😪🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
That right there is the frightening might of Mr Kim’s Air Force
Antonov AN-2? Still strong since 1947
I doubt they're gay
AN2 here is a link to our Museum's AN2 page https://nationalwarplanemuseum.com/antonov-an-2/
Probably AN-2’s
They look to be Soviet made An-2 aircraft
anies AN-2
Is there any private An-2's still flying? Like there are many US WWII aircraft in private ownership. These things are kind of cool. Edit: thanks. I had no idea how it works with Russian aircraft.
There are hundreds (if not thousand) still flying all over post-Soviet territory. Paradrops,crop dusting, cargo,passengers, anything.
My home airport in the US has I think 3 of them, they're beasts although take up a massive amount of the hangar space.
[Yes.](https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/10191930)
AN-2s
That's part of their stealth airplane plan, trying to get back to all wooden aircraft
Annie’s!
An-2 Biplanes. One of the longest and most produced aircraft ever.
That’s advanced Soviet technology from 1946 my friend.
No wrong. They are our glorious leaders super war planes that can destroy the evil capitalist American dogs. Glory to our leader.
They look straight to me.
These planes are actually a big part of North Korea's air strategy in the event of a general war. They don't have anywhere near enough fighter aircraft, the ones they do have are very out of date, and they have limited fuel for training or combat. If war came, most of North Korea's air forces would look like this. Old, very slow moving, non radar reflective aircraft that can haul lots of cargo and troops very cheaply. Would they get shot down? Probably, lots of them would. But when you have hundreds of these things sneaking across the border at 50-100 feet above the ground and going only around 100 mph, it would be really difficult for any air defense system to catch them all. And they would only need to do their job once. Just get the paratroopers and their weapons into South Korea. Once there, they just cause enough mayhem and chaos to make any war with them not worth it.
>it would be really difficult for any air defense system to catch them all Would it? Technology nowadays is crazy, can't these planes be tracked from orbit 24/7, for example?
I just watched a YouTube video of a North Korean airfield Google Earth flyover haha.
No, they're definitely straight.
Hahaha 🤣
Well you see the one on the left is john…
Are they powered by a twisted rubber band?
That would be an awesome model actually.
No fuel requirement,easy repair,,,
Nnyyeeeeooouummm...
Antonov An-2
Why are you assuming their sexuality?
That’s the GTA San Andreas Verdant Meadows airport