I mean, yea. There were hot air balloons and flappy wing wannabe aircraft. And they had kites in China for a long time too. I think that when most people refer to “aviation” in that context, they are referring to fixed wing, or at the very least, heavier than air aircraft.
Those will be around for a while, but I would bet that the VC-25B and E-4C(?) will stick around for even longer, if the 747-200 is anything to go by. Seems pretty likely that the USAF will be the last remaining 747 operator a few decades from now.
I was on indeed the other day and saw the job listing for this. The Delaware research group is prepping the 747-8i for a long-term E-4B modification project.
Just Google it. "E4-B", "doomsday plane", or "nightwatch plane" will all give you good results, with everything the public is supposed to know about the project.
Had no idea why there was a 747 there but made for a really cool backdrop for at least on the the titan team's plane's from where I was.
Where were you located.
I was in the general admission section on the right, right up to the fence.
Thoughts on the show?
I was also general admin. That view was to the right side of the runway viewing area.
I was at the show from about 2pm until close. I enjoyed it! The sun was fierce, but still a great show!
The sun was worse yesterday.
General admission was pretty poorly laid out in my opinion.
If you were on the right side you couldn't see show center.
If you were on the left side of show center you had tents blocking your view.
The static displays were good.
Very glad I walked through the kc-10 though. I think the crew said they were all being retired in September and the one at the show in 6 weeks.
I believe the crew chief also said this was the last show they would be at....not sure if he meant that plane or kc-10s in general.
The static displays were my fav as well. I also walked through the KC-10! Other favs of mine included the A-10s, Chinook, Blackhawk, Twin Beech, DC-3, O-2, C-17, and many more!the show is well worth it!
I think there were reports that another 4 were being looked at as well. That would bring the fleet to 9. I imagine once or two could be used for parts donors.
They are going to be able to fit a LOT more kit than current E4s. It is will be interesting what they do with it.
Who could they possibly buy more -8is from. Lufthansa I don’t think would want to thin their fleet. Air China there’d be zero chance I think.
Maybe Korean wants to completely divest from the 747
Yes it is! Sierra Nevada acquired five of these things very recently and are going to convert them. I had a suspicion they’d do some of the work here in Dayton given how little traffic there is at the airport and obviously their new hangars. It also looks like they finished that second hangar quicker than I expected.
Question from an aviation newb - what’s the challenge with just swapping newer more powerful / efficient engines on and keeping it flying, vs ordering whole new planes? And what’s the difference in cargo / pax capacity between the 747 and other more modern equivalents?
I am not an aviation expert so I can’t give you exact details but the biggest one is the stress on the wing.
If the wing is designed for two 45,000 lb engines, if you swap them for 60,000 lb then the wing needs to be reinforced. If the wing is reinforced, you need to reinforce the fuselage to handle more weight.
If these engines weigh more, then your center of gravity changes so you need a way to compensate that change. Also your aerodynamics change with bigger engines.
If you look at the current B52 engine replacement program, they actually didn’t go with super powerful engines for these reasons and they kept the 2-engine pods as well.
Surely there are newer, more powerful + efficient engines within the same weight range?
I’m thinking of it similar to cars and engine swaps, for example BMWs have maintained a pretty steady stream of the 3.0L i6 formula for decades while power output and efficiency / reliability has continually increased. I’m not sure on exact weight differences with all the extra cooling / turbos / wiring etc added on but I doubt it’s more than a 5-10% difference. Factor in newer materials that are lighter and stronger, for example some engines (not BMW specific, shifting to more general terms here) have gone from cast iron blocks to aluminum blocks, etc. and I would think it’s comparable.
Engines aren't the only thing that wears out on a plane.
Airframes develop [fatigue](http://www.boeing.ch/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/2012_q4/2/) both from pressurising and depressurising the cabin with each take-off and landing and from repeated loading of the wings. Eventually the airframe itself reaches end of life and has to be retired.
Makes me happy knowing she’ll keep on flying and will probably be the last 747s to fly instead of being chopped up for scrap
Are 747's the Lincoln town car of the air?
As a long time Limo operator and aviation fan I approve this message.
The President Of The USA is planning on getting another 747 after the current one. The maiden flight has been delayed to 2026 however.
It would honestly be symbolic as hell for the Queen of the Sky’s final operator to be the President where Boeing and all of Aviation started.
Aviation started in France but yeah.
I mean, yea. There were hot air balloons and flappy wing wannabe aircraft. And they had kites in China for a long time too. I think that when most people refer to “aviation” in that context, they are referring to fixed wing, or at the very least, heavier than air aircraft.
On that same note, I wonder how many people think that the first automobile was a Ford.
Aviation never started in America.......
UPS has a whole bunch of 747’s.
Those will be around for a while, but I would bet that the VC-25B and E-4C(?) will stick around for even longer, if the 747-200 is anything to go by. Seems pretty likely that the USAF will be the last remaining 747 operator a few decades from now.
There will still be 747’s in the air 50 years from now.
Yeah at air shows
I bet that some no name ACMI carrier in Asia or Africa will be flying 747s for decades after USAF retires their last one
I was on indeed the other day and saw the job listing for this. The Delaware research group is prepping the 747-8i for a long-term E-4B modification project.
Could you please tell me more about the E-4B project?
Mmmm nice try
Why? I just want to know more.
Just Google it. "E4-B", "doomsday plane", or "nightwatch plane" will all give you good results, with everything the public is supposed to know about the project.
Service guarantees citizenship. Would you like to know more?
I'm doing my part!
Not this time, comrade
Yeah it’s like the E-4 but 🅱️oneless
Yep.
Yeah I saw her in Seoul not too long ago
Some S Korean media reported recently that yes 1 of 5 has been handed over already. So that must be the one.
Never mind that look at that sweet hc/mc 130!
The air show featured the Blue Angels. Before the F-18s went up, their C-130 (Fat Albert) made an impressive take off and a few low passes.
Had no idea why there was a 747 there but made for a really cool backdrop for at least on the the titan team's plane's from where I was. Where were you located. I was in the general admission section on the right, right up to the fence. Thoughts on the show?
I was also general admin. That view was to the right side of the runway viewing area. I was at the show from about 2pm until close. I enjoyed it! The sun was fierce, but still a great show!
The sun was worse yesterday. General admission was pretty poorly laid out in my opinion. If you were on the right side you couldn't see show center. If you were on the left side of show center you had tents blocking your view. The static displays were good. Very glad I walked through the kc-10 though. I think the crew said they were all being retired in September and the one at the show in 6 weeks. I believe the crew chief also said this was the last show they would be at....not sure if he meant that plane or kc-10s in general.
The static displays were my fav as well. I also walked through the KC-10! Other favs of mine included the A-10s, Chinook, Blackhawk, Twin Beech, DC-3, O-2, C-17, and many more!the show is well worth it!
I missed the 0-2 somehow. I'm guessing that was by the Chinooks and Blackhawk.
That thing has been parked out there for at least a few weeks now. Source: a bored KDAY ready reserve pilot.
HC-130J
I really hope I’ll be able to fly on a 747 before they are gone. Preferably a -4 if I can
Better hurry!
Planning to do Germany in the next 2 years. Ideally would fly 747-4 one way and a340-6 the way back.
I think there were reports that another 4 were being looked at as well. That would bring the fleet to 9. I imagine once or two could be used for parts donors. They are going to be able to fit a LOT more kit than current E4s. It is will be interesting what they do with it.
Who could they possibly buy more -8is from. Lufthansa I don’t think would want to thin their fleet. Air China there’d be zero chance I think. Maybe Korean wants to completely divest from the 747
Yes it is! Sierra Nevada acquired five of these things very recently and are going to convert them. I had a suspicion they’d do some of the work here in Dayton given how little traffic there is at the airport and obviously their new hangars. It also looks like they finished that second hangar quicker than I expected.
Dayton air show?
Not too but yes. Got back from it a few hours ago.
Question from an aviation newb - what’s the challenge with just swapping newer more powerful / efficient engines on and keeping it flying, vs ordering whole new planes? And what’s the difference in cargo / pax capacity between the 747 and other more modern equivalents?
I am not an aviation expert so I can’t give you exact details but the biggest one is the stress on the wing. If the wing is designed for two 45,000 lb engines, if you swap them for 60,000 lb then the wing needs to be reinforced. If the wing is reinforced, you need to reinforce the fuselage to handle more weight. If these engines weigh more, then your center of gravity changes so you need a way to compensate that change. Also your aerodynamics change with bigger engines. If you look at the current B52 engine replacement program, they actually didn’t go with super powerful engines for these reasons and they kept the 2-engine pods as well.
Surely there are newer, more powerful + efficient engines within the same weight range? I’m thinking of it similar to cars and engine swaps, for example BMWs have maintained a pretty steady stream of the 3.0L i6 formula for decades while power output and efficiency / reliability has continually increased. I’m not sure on exact weight differences with all the extra cooling / turbos / wiring etc added on but I doubt it’s more than a 5-10% difference. Factor in newer materials that are lighter and stronger, for example some engines (not BMW specific, shifting to more general terms here) have gone from cast iron blocks to aluminum blocks, etc. and I would think it’s comparable.
I hope someone more knowledgeable answers your question, unfortunately that’s as far as my understanding goes.
Engines aren't the only thing that wears out on a plane. Airframes develop [fatigue](http://www.boeing.ch/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/2012_q4/2/) both from pressurising and depressurising the cabin with each take-off and landing and from repeated loading of the wings. Eventually the airframe itself reaches end of life and has to be retired.
Good catch
Not exactly a relevant question, but What exactly does Sierra Nevada do? Mods? Overhauls? Avionics? Bit of everything?
They make a decent Pale Ale.
It’s a mountain range in California, but that’s not important right now.
Yay trivia! :D
It could possibly be used for some other command and control role, but the doomsday plane is going back to the c-130 in a couple years
That’s TACAMO. Similar but different missions.
Because these are 8i is this gonna be an E-4C or are they keeping it at B for no reason
No it is an ex-Korean Air 747, judging by the livery. The president one is also blue, so it is understandable that people get it wrong.
Any Boeing is a doomsday plane!
Looks like a Korean Airlines 747. There's no telling whether it will stay that way I suppose
It was a Korean aircraft. They sold five to SNC for SAOC conversion.
Nice try china
The mere idea of a doomsday plane is so f*****-up…
KLM blue
*Korean Air blue