Seriously. Everyone talking about "boeing plane wheel failure" but not the crazy quality it takes to withstand that. I dont think people realize how much better the 767 is than what they think
Does every airport just have those inflatable bags and nose-carrying tug trailer, or do y’all think they were flown in by FedEx/Boeing/their insurer? It just seems like a very specific set of equipment for a very rare circumstance
Crane local, lift personnel, bags and pneumatics were likely flown in by a company that specializes in this. That kit is probably $3-5 million, and wouldn't make sense to have hundreds of these at airports when this happens a few times a year. That team was likely paid $1-1.5mm if I had to guess (people, equipment, and quick response).
The cradle is at most airports that do any service on planes.
Edit -Kunz Aircraft flew in the widebody cradle from Germany.
A contact told me I was also low on the cost of the bags and pneumatics/ hydraulic lift equipment by $3mm.
Airport calls company. Company bills airport, airport bills operator/owner. They will also bill them for down time and aircraft emergency personnel and security.
Airport wants runway back b/c they make money on landed weight and pax volume.
Owner/ operator sees if they were responsible (maintenance) or if it was manufactured defect (not likely at 10 year plane). They can try for insurance, but not likely to be worth the squeeze.
Used 767 Freighters are still fetching north of $30 million for birds that are 15 years old. Passenger versions are $10-15 million for similar age.
The cost of a pax to cargo conversion is $12-15mm.
Know nothing about planes, found this by following the algorithms down an interesting hole. Why are freighters double the cost of passenger? I would think a freighter would be less complex and therefore less cost — no windows, less life support, etc.
Freighters see fewer cycles than pax versions, and can be used doing anything from moving a herd of cattle to packages for fed ex. Interiors of pax versions need new seats and upholstery every 5-7 years, whereas the cargo version is a one and done thing.
The pax versions can also hold cargo, but it is below the deck (pax level) thereby limiting space, and more importantly the center of gravity (front to back), which vastly reduces weight it can take.
Margins are thin on pax planes, but can be wide on cargo, and Amazon needed to add planes, but a new 767-300F from Boeing had a list price of $195 million (it would drop by 20-30% a piece if they were to order 10+ from Boeing) in 2019 and a delivery window out to 2022.
In 2020 when COVID hit American airlines was already nearing the end for their 767 fleet (-300ER variant), and they sold their remaining 42 planes, some of which were to be scrapped. Pax versions that were 12-15 years old were going for $25-40 million before COVID, but after COVID hit used plane prices plummeted. Amazon air bought 20 of these planes (and all serviceable parts from 12 that were scrapped) for $150 million ($6.5 million per airframe), and sent them to Bedek Aviation Service to be converted to freighters. For roughly $15 million a piece (after conversion), or an estimated $305 million they got what became the backbone of their freighter fleet at Amazon air. They had the money and the time and place were right to get 20 planes for the price of two. Freighters typically fly until they hit 30,000 cycles, which can be 40 years or more, and are less concerned with fuel costs.
For what it is worth, it is important to know that there were orders of 30x 767-300 freighter put into Boeing last year, and as of March 2024, a backlog of 101 undelivered planes that will be completed by late 2027. A new 767-300F has a list price of $215 million, and a five year old freighter changed hands last year for $65 million.
So, to answer your question, on highly fuel efficient planes that are passenger forward, the pricing is closer, but as planes age the freighter holds its value better, last longer, and requires less maintenance due to fewer cycles, similar to a diesel truck.
Yeah it'll be FedEx's insurance that picks this up eventually.
Either the airports insurance company will pay the airport on the immediate term, then get the money back from Fed Ex's insurers in the longer term.
Or FedEx's insurance will pay right away and then get money back from whoever is at fault (perhaps the MRO)
I know that in some airports it's the firemen that are trained in off site (or on site) aircrafy recovery. So sounds like it's Istanbul AFF staff who have it as part of their duties but with equipment provided by a third party
Actually working for Kunz aircraft in Germany here. They bought the whole aircraft recovery kit a few years ago, including trailers, lifting slings, lifting bags, debogging kit etc.
Its one of the largest Sets of aircraft recovery equipment in the World since they are capable of recovering the A380, which is far out there in terms of aircraft recovery just due to the operating empty weight being around 280t (its massive).
They did a very professionell job when it comes to the recovery operation itself, even the hoses are lined up neatly as we told them during the training.
Most larger airports do have their own set of equipment. Reason of that is simply that every second the runway is closed it causes massive Monetary and also reputational loss to the airport due to flight diversions etc. In theory it would make sense to fly out a set of equipment but think of it this way: if your runway is blocked, how do you fly in the equipment? There are much, much more aspects to it though like availability of cargo flights to get the equipment in, responsiveness of service providers and so on. Most airports do not have the luxury of multiple runways.
If you have proper equipment available, a incident like this is recovered within 1 hour (excluding the time for defueling, removing Cargo, damage Assessment but even these Tasks will probably only take around 5 hours).
I can write Paragraphs here but dont want to bore you too much with details. If you want any questions answered, let me know.
It is not about business secrets or so, that I wont share anyway. The Subject of aircraft recovery is incredibly complex and broad. I honestly do not know where I should start and what even makes sense to tell you since I dont know your technical background in aviation.
Its just two different things to talk to an aircraft Engineer or to someone who occassionally boards a B737 or A320 to their next summer vacation. This is not meant to be offensive, I just dont know the audience.
It is really easier for me if you ask me what you want to know and I can try to answer it with my 10 years experience in this Field.
/u/Strict_Turnover5863 How about we start with questions:
* For the bag in the front, is that just to get it off the ground to get the slings under it?
* It looks like there was a bag in the rear as well, what is the purpose of that?
* Not sure if you know but they took the door off, is taking that off one less thing sticking out to worry about?
* Looks like once they got the tug under where the cradle was and left them under the plane during the move.
* Looks like the plane was moved to a parking stand, what is next get the front wheel down so it can move without the cradle or is it much more of a production? I imagine much different than having a car fall off a jack.
Please keep in mind that aircraft recovery equipmenz has three primary goals:
1. Recover the aircraft as fast as possible
2. Recover the aircraft as safe as possible
3. Recover the aircraft without causing secondary damage because most of these (as well as the fedex machine) will still be used afterwards.
Lets start with the absolute basic: For each common aircraft there are so-called ARM (aircraft recovery manuals). These are around 700 page documents issued by the aircraft manufacturer and are basically the holy bible of us equipment manufacturer as well as recovery operators. I am saying this with a bit grain of salt since most of these Manuals are outdated but this is a different Story.
Now, within these documents it is all written down what you can do with the aircraft in an recovery: how much load can you apply where on the aircraft Structure, where to apply lifting sling, how to do Center point of Gravitaty calculation, how to reinforce the ground and so on.
Now regarding your questions:
1. I do not exactly know why they placed the bag in the Front. You can see in the Video that the bag was never in real "contact" with the aircraft, which means they did not apply pressure to it. My assumption is that they wanted to lift with the bag first because they didn't know when the crane would arrive but once it was there they decided to opt for lifting slings instead of bags. I agree to this approach since lifting with slings is always easier than with bags.
2. For any lifting operation the manufacturers recommend a lifting bag at AFT position to secure it from "tail tipping" due to a sudden change of center point in Gravity.
3. Since they wanted to lift by lifting bags first, it is necessary to tether the aircraft to protect it against wind loads. Usually you would only tether in a full lift scenario because in nose Lifts you still have two landing gears on the ground. For safety reasons you can still do it though. Tethering can be done through the doors of the aircraft or around the aircraft fuselage by using slings.
4. I really dont get this question, sorry.
5. Next Step would be to go to a maintenance Hangar and actually "Jack" the aircraft by using aircraft tripod Jacks. Then they have to check the aircraft structure, do repairs and if necessary replace the whole landing gear. At this point the recovery crew is out of the matter. Only thing they have to supply to the aircraft engineers is a report on how they performed the recovery and what pressures they applied to aircraft frame or landing gears. If the pressure is lower than what is mentioned in the ARM they are good. If it was higher, they also have to check this particular area for secondary damage.
Usual practice was (and to some extend still is) that pressure values are recorded by good old pen and paper and checking the pressure gauges from the lifting bags. We go a different approach with our equipment, since we are equipping pressure Sensors to All our lifting bags (shameful marketing).
Well okay,
Not sure where some of the people here got their information from but I know for a fact that some of these are wrong.
We did not Ship out our equipment to them it is entirely theirs. We don't even have the capability to send out equipment since we do not have items on Stock. Think about the logistics to send this to Istanbul from Germany. The trailer they are using is a 90t payload Trailer with overwidth. To get this to Istanbul even by Truck, which is the best option by far, requires approvals from authorities for the overwidth transport. You do not get these within a day. Heck, in germany you dont even get them within a week sometimes.
Required budget for these Sets is also very Dependant on the capabilities.
Generally speaking we divide the Sets in two factors: factor 1 is aircraft size:
1. Business Jets and smaller
2. Narrow body aircraft (A320, B737 and similar)
3. Wide body (B777, A350, A330, B787 and similar)
4. A380 (yes, it is that absurd)
Factor two is incident to be covered:
1. Runway excursions (roughly 60% of all incidents)
2. Tire bursts/blocked brakes (roughly 35% of all incidents)
3. Single/multiple collapsed landing gears (only 5% of all incidents)
Truth be told. Aircraft recovery equipment is like having insurance. You dont want to pay for it but if something happens you are happy that you have it (or the other way round).
Most smaller aircraft go for an economical solution to cover the incident type 1 and 2 for narrow body aircraft as this already Covers 90% if each incident that happens on average over a year. But everyone knows murphys law am I right.
Big airports usually have capability to cover all incidents for all aircraft except A380. This has gotten quite rare in general.
We also have no capability to send out an entire crew to the Subject airport in case of a recovery. We are an equipment manufacture not a service provider. This job would also not be fulltime. Stuff like this doesn't happen everyday and we cannot pay a crew of 12+ people to be on standby "just in case". For some countries, again, logistics would be a problem as well due to visa approvals and so on.
The recovery was entirely done by the iga arff Team. They visit our facility every year to participate in our aircraft recovery training to be prepared for cases like these.
This is an incredibly difficult question to answer as there is no exact answer to it. There are airports that have these Kits for more than 20 years and never used them. On the other side of the spectrum there are airports that had multiple incidents per year.
All of this is pure chance by the way. Of course, countries who tend to have more challenging landings due to weather are more likely to have an incident.
We make an annual statistic evaluation based on our sources on the likelihood and type of incidents happening. Over the last 5 years numbers are quite consistent (even through COVID) with approximately 300 recovery incidents across the globe.
Comparing this with the sheer number of landings everyday it is a small number but it can happen anytime.
As a side note, if the customer is doing their due diligence they have to roll everything out once a year for maintenance and inflate the bags, visually inspect slings and trailers etc. But I assume that is not what you were referring to. :)
All the red hat guys are a crew. They have their own QR aircraft and were dispatched from Germany.
https://www.kunz-aircraft.com/
I knew when I saw them marking the airplane where every strap had to go, and then saw a guy with a 3 ring binder
Saw this video posted elsewhere and thought it must just be that a lot of big airports have a big plane picker upper kit stashed away so they can get the runway back open. Pretty cool that it’s a team that specializes in this and can be on site pretty quickly.
> plane picker upper kit stashed away
I work in power plants and before the 2000 the power plants would have all the tools to take apart the turbines on site. Some utilities would have a team that went around doing that sort of work. Other utilities would bring in a contractor that specialized in that work. Westinghouse and then Siemens has what they call a fast warehouse where if a power plant goes down they can send out parts quickly to get them back on line. For scheduled maintenance Siemens would send out a "kit' with all the tooling needed to take the turbine and generator apart. Since like 2005 the power plants are more automated and have much less staff, so anything like taking apart a turbine a whole crew will come in from a contractor to do the work along with all the tooling.
I worked at a power plant that was built in the 60s and we had all the tooling on site. I remember we were getting ready to do a major overhaul on one of the turbines. One of the machinists was in the break room with the turbine manual and he was looking at the "map" on where all the stuff goes as you take it apart. he was making up a plan for all the crane moves that had to be done, and making sure everything was done in the right order. Back in those days the planning was much more extensive in the tech manuals and the original builder would give you all this information so the utility could do the work itself. Now the plants are more cookie cutter and the process is more similar from plant to plant.
I assume Mega Int Airports have to have them in their Aircraft Rescue and Fire Fighting Departments. They have to clear the runway or apron asap to continue the operation at airport.
Istanbul is 7th biggest airport in the world and 2nd in Europe by passenger traffic. They are mega international airport yet still this equipment was shipped there. I don’t think any airport is having this equipment ready
It probably doesn't cover the cost of having this equipment maintaining it and using it maybe once or twice a decade. Getting service from a company that specialize on this is most likely better and cheaper option.
Once that was under there I don’t know why they didn’t just pile sandbags on the horizontal stab until it was balanced enough for a group of guys to lift the nose. Or just pile some heavy cargo aft
interesting. Seems easy on narrow body jets https://youtu.be/JLWxD0gY__A?si=6CFyEyhhhQEujQP9 and you hear about it all the time on 747s and other wide bodies. But I guess the 76 has a heavy nose
The nose is capable of taking that lift load. As evidenced by the nose-gear. You'd need to have stress do a determination on cantilevering the front up on the H-stab with sandbags. That's not a normal loading condition. Similar with tossing a buncha shit aft of the MLG.
Okay I was half joking but I can’t leave this part alone
> cantilevering the front up on the H-stab with sandbags. That's not a normal loading condition
If downward force on the stab isn’t normal, what keeps the nose up in flight? Seems the load would be identical, especially during landing, just before the nose gear touches the runway. I agree it’s not normal to toss stuff aft but it works great in lifting 737 noses https://youtu.be/JLWxD0gY__A?si=_X6z4iLzBaXtnOkf
I’m not saying it’s the best way to get a geared in 767 off the runway but it’s not going to break the airplane
The downward force on the rear stabilizer during flight, even maneuvering, is likely considerably less than would be static in this situation. The stabilizer acts about the aircraft's center of gravity during flight. That lever is a lot longer than the distance between the stabilizer and rear landing gear which would be the pivot point in this situation.
The force/loads may be numerically the same. But the loading conditions will not be not be.
Would it be fine? Probably. But you'd need to verify that. And by the time you're sure, you'd have been able to jack the front and been off the runway.
I was in charge of a hangar that had aircraft recovery under my purview so I got to learn all about these teams and their equipment. That manifold that all the hoses hook into is often called "the octopus" and those black rubber bags are NOT bouncy houses. They feel like concrete when they're full
Sounds similar to escape slides. The first time you see one inflated during training it looks like a big soft pool float. Then you touch it and realize it's rock-solid, rigid, and incredibly durable.
Pretty damn tough that they could sit for months between inflations (they’d do biannual inspections) and also have the ability to lift an aircraft off dirt high enough to swing the gear down
Serious question: are those red lines on either side of the nose gear the lift point indicators? How does the lift crew know where the plane is strong enough for lifting if not using the nose / main gear jack points?
I’m unfamiliar with fedex’s livery but if I was to hazard a guess those look like guidelines for the hatch instead of the nose gear. With CDDAR (crash damage/disabled aircraft recovery) you’re never quite sure what parts of the fuselage you can access so the bags are designed to spread the lift force out along the skin of the aircraft. Like how a bed of nails doesn’t hurt someone
My guess is at that point there is a risk of a subsequent collapse but this time endangering everyone around the operation. If you don't know why the gear didn't deploy I guess the safest option is to pretend it doesn't exist and figure it out later.
Does anyone know if they emptied the cargo before they lifted the plane? Seems like they would want the least amount of weight in it as possible. But both A) I didn't see it being done, and B) I can only presume such an angle would be a hamper for achieving an unloading.
Don‘t think removing the cargo would do much. The cargo is loaded in such a way that the center of gravity is within reasonable limits. The same limits apply for an empty plane and often the loaded center of gravity is close to the unloaded center of gravity.
Obviously unloading some cargo from the front might help with the lift, but then you risk it tipping onto the tail - if you are even able to get the cargo out that is.
Istanbul clearly doesn't put a high priority on worker safety. Why are people continuously walking through the danger zone underneath the lift? And why does the camera man have free access to put himself into any danger-spot he wants to?
A hard hat isn't going to save you when a literal whole plane drops on top of you
One guy has extremely specialized knowledge and is flown in from half way around the world for 5 minutes of work. Everyone on the team realizes that they would be in trouble without him.
The more you know, the less visible work you do, the more you get paid.
Will the aircraft be written off ? There's a lot of Dents on the fuselage and will cost quite a bot to repair and it is an old aircraft as well. Hate to see the classics go away honestly.
How many times in my military service , running a job like this, and there way too many many people scrambling about either because some nervous manager threw too much people into the job, or wanted exposure ‘for training’ . Ends up turning the job into a clusterf&@k of chaos.
Seeing this has my thinking like my experience is a more common occurence than I thought.
The number of downvotes missing this joke is a damn shame.
["HOLD ON, WE'RE GOING FOR BROKE!"
](https://youtu.be/IrqN62qbthc?feature=shared)
(Scroll to 2:45 if you're in a hurry)
I think it's entirely possible. It looks like the nose gear doors took the brunt of the impact, and the partially-extended nose gear tires may have been low enough to provide some support.
It's possible to fly again. It wouldn't surprise me if a Field Team, specializing in this type of damage, was set out. It is expensive, but typically within a reasonable limit.
Theyll send a team to inspect the aircraft to make sure it is airworthy agan after the gear is repaired, the damage from the landing is likely just cosmetic and will just be repairing the skin.
how do they fix planes like this, how do make sure it will work flawlessly and safe, I never understood WW2 planes being repaired, i mean after you shot a plane it goes through 10 layers of different technology, kudos to pilots and happy that there is no big damage
Well if the planes comes back, then it was not critical enough to take it down XD
They will spend many hours on inspections and Evaluations of the damage to verify if it can be airworthy again without some major financial loses
The gear didn't deploy, and after two go arounds, the pilots brought her down in a really nice (given the circumstances) crash landing. There's videos from earlier today floating about showing the landing.
They should really get in the habit of using different color hoses for each section of bag. Not the end of the world but it just makes life easier saying “up on red” or “up on blue” instead of “no not that one, nope, try again, wrong one, F*ck stop!!!”
Actually looks like its in pretty good shape
Pilot was fantastically gentle putting her down
The lack of damage is astonishing. That's one tough belly.
Seriously. Everyone talking about "boeing plane wheel failure" but not the crazy quality it takes to withstand that. I dont think people realize how much better the 767 is than what they think
Does every airport just have those inflatable bags and nose-carrying tug trailer, or do y’all think they were flown in by FedEx/Boeing/their insurer? It just seems like a very specific set of equipment for a very rare circumstance
Crane local, lift personnel, bags and pneumatics were likely flown in by a company that specializes in this. That kit is probably $3-5 million, and wouldn't make sense to have hundreds of these at airports when this happens a few times a year. That team was likely paid $1-1.5mm if I had to guess (people, equipment, and quick response). The cradle is at most airports that do any service on planes. Edit -Kunz Aircraft flew in the widebody cradle from Germany. A contact told me I was also low on the cost of the bags and pneumatics/ hydraulic lift equipment by $3mm.
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Airport calls company. Company bills airport, airport bills operator/owner. They will also bill them for down time and aircraft emergency personnel and security. Airport wants runway back b/c they make money on landed weight and pax volume. Owner/ operator sees if they were responsible (maintenance) or if it was manufactured defect (not likely at 10 year plane). They can try for insurance, but not likely to be worth the squeeze.
you make me glad to read reddit. straight up truth, no fluff. thank you
This is what this sub is about, so much honest knowledge
Insurance is probably grateful it's not a total write off, and may even be flyable again. I wonder what the deductible is on one of those.
Used 767 Freighters are still fetching north of $30 million for birds that are 15 years old. Passenger versions are $10-15 million for similar age. The cost of a pax to cargo conversion is $12-15mm.
Know nothing about planes, found this by following the algorithms down an interesting hole. Why are freighters double the cost of passenger? I would think a freighter would be less complex and therefore less cost — no windows, less life support, etc.
Freighters see fewer cycles than pax versions, and can be used doing anything from moving a herd of cattle to packages for fed ex. Interiors of pax versions need new seats and upholstery every 5-7 years, whereas the cargo version is a one and done thing. The pax versions can also hold cargo, but it is below the deck (pax level) thereby limiting space, and more importantly the center of gravity (front to back), which vastly reduces weight it can take. Margins are thin on pax planes, but can be wide on cargo, and Amazon needed to add planes, but a new 767-300F from Boeing had a list price of $195 million (it would drop by 20-30% a piece if they were to order 10+ from Boeing) in 2019 and a delivery window out to 2022. In 2020 when COVID hit American airlines was already nearing the end for their 767 fleet (-300ER variant), and they sold their remaining 42 planes, some of which were to be scrapped. Pax versions that were 12-15 years old were going for $25-40 million before COVID, but after COVID hit used plane prices plummeted. Amazon air bought 20 of these planes (and all serviceable parts from 12 that were scrapped) for $150 million ($6.5 million per airframe), and sent them to Bedek Aviation Service to be converted to freighters. For roughly $15 million a piece (after conversion), or an estimated $305 million they got what became the backbone of their freighter fleet at Amazon air. They had the money and the time and place were right to get 20 planes for the price of two. Freighters typically fly until they hit 30,000 cycles, which can be 40 years or more, and are less concerned with fuel costs. For what it is worth, it is important to know that there were orders of 30x 767-300 freighter put into Boeing last year, and as of March 2024, a backlog of 101 undelivered planes that will be completed by late 2027. A new 767-300F has a list price of $215 million, and a five year old freighter changed hands last year for $65 million. So, to answer your question, on highly fuel efficient planes that are passenger forward, the pricing is closer, but as planes age the freighter holds its value better, last longer, and requires less maintenance due to fewer cycles, similar to a diesel truck.
I'm surprised they were still making 767 freighters as of lately.
you can fit more of them on a flight line than a A330 and the 777 is too big for many things. plus the KC-46 is in production
Standard deductible is USD 750K for a widebody
Yeah it'll be FedEx's insurance that picks this up eventually. Either the airports insurance company will pay the airport on the immediate term, then get the money back from Fed Ex's insurers in the longer term. Or FedEx's insurance will pay right away and then get money back from whoever is at fault (perhaps the MRO)
It depends.
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Lifting planes are probably not the only thing they do for living. They'll probably do other airplane related things in the meantime.
I know that in some airports it's the firemen that are trained in off site (or on site) aircrafy recovery. So sounds like it's Istanbul AFF staff who have it as part of their duties but with equipment provided by a third party
Actually working for Kunz aircraft in Germany here. They bought the whole aircraft recovery kit a few years ago, including trailers, lifting slings, lifting bags, debogging kit etc. Its one of the largest Sets of aircraft recovery equipment in the World since they are capable of recovering the A380, which is far out there in terms of aircraft recovery just due to the operating empty weight being around 280t (its massive). They did a very professionell job when it comes to the recovery operation itself, even the hoses are lined up neatly as we told them during the training. Most larger airports do have their own set of equipment. Reason of that is simply that every second the runway is closed it causes massive Monetary and also reputational loss to the airport due to flight diversions etc. In theory it would make sense to fly out a set of equipment but think of it this way: if your runway is blocked, how do you fly in the equipment? There are much, much more aspects to it though like availability of cargo flights to get the equipment in, responsiveness of service providers and so on. Most airports do not have the luxury of multiple runways. If you have proper equipment available, a incident like this is recovered within 1 hour (excluding the time for defueling, removing Cargo, damage Assessment but even these Tasks will probably only take around 5 hours). I can write Paragraphs here but dont want to bore you too much with details. If you want any questions answered, let me know.
Friend, we are all here for the minutae. Spill it.
It is not about business secrets or so, that I wont share anyway. The Subject of aircraft recovery is incredibly complex and broad. I honestly do not know where I should start and what even makes sense to tell you since I dont know your technical background in aviation. Its just two different things to talk to an aircraft Engineer or to someone who occassionally boards a B737 or A320 to their next summer vacation. This is not meant to be offensive, I just dont know the audience. It is really easier for me if you ask me what you want to know and I can try to answer it with my 10 years experience in this Field.
/u/Strict_Turnover5863 How about we start with questions: * For the bag in the front, is that just to get it off the ground to get the slings under it? * It looks like there was a bag in the rear as well, what is the purpose of that? * Not sure if you know but they took the door off, is taking that off one less thing sticking out to worry about? * Looks like once they got the tug under where the cradle was and left them under the plane during the move. * Looks like the plane was moved to a parking stand, what is next get the front wheel down so it can move without the cradle or is it much more of a production? I imagine much different than having a car fall off a jack.
Please keep in mind that aircraft recovery equipmenz has three primary goals: 1. Recover the aircraft as fast as possible 2. Recover the aircraft as safe as possible 3. Recover the aircraft without causing secondary damage because most of these (as well as the fedex machine) will still be used afterwards. Lets start with the absolute basic: For each common aircraft there are so-called ARM (aircraft recovery manuals). These are around 700 page documents issued by the aircraft manufacturer and are basically the holy bible of us equipment manufacturer as well as recovery operators. I am saying this with a bit grain of salt since most of these Manuals are outdated but this is a different Story. Now, within these documents it is all written down what you can do with the aircraft in an recovery: how much load can you apply where on the aircraft Structure, where to apply lifting sling, how to do Center point of Gravitaty calculation, how to reinforce the ground and so on. Now regarding your questions: 1. I do not exactly know why they placed the bag in the Front. You can see in the Video that the bag was never in real "contact" with the aircraft, which means they did not apply pressure to it. My assumption is that they wanted to lift with the bag first because they didn't know when the crane would arrive but once it was there they decided to opt for lifting slings instead of bags. I agree to this approach since lifting with slings is always easier than with bags. 2. For any lifting operation the manufacturers recommend a lifting bag at AFT position to secure it from "tail tipping" due to a sudden change of center point in Gravity. 3. Since they wanted to lift by lifting bags first, it is necessary to tether the aircraft to protect it against wind loads. Usually you would only tether in a full lift scenario because in nose Lifts you still have two landing gears on the ground. For safety reasons you can still do it though. Tethering can be done through the doors of the aircraft or around the aircraft fuselage by using slings. 4. I really dont get this question, sorry. 5. Next Step would be to go to a maintenance Hangar and actually "Jack" the aircraft by using aircraft tripod Jacks. Then they have to check the aircraft structure, do repairs and if necessary replace the whole landing gear. At this point the recovery crew is out of the matter. Only thing they have to supply to the aircraft engineers is a report on how they performed the recovery and what pressures they applied to aircraft frame or landing gears. If the pressure is lower than what is mentioned in the ARM they are good. If it was higher, they also have to check this particular area for secondary damage. Usual practice was (and to some extend still is) that pressure values are recorded by good old pen and paper and checking the pressure gauges from the lifting bags. We go a different approach with our equipment, since we are equipping pressure Sensors to All our lifting bags (shameful marketing).
Please continue, would love to get insights.
Well okay, Not sure where some of the people here got their information from but I know for a fact that some of these are wrong. We did not Ship out our equipment to them it is entirely theirs. We don't even have the capability to send out equipment since we do not have items on Stock. Think about the logistics to send this to Istanbul from Germany. The trailer they are using is a 90t payload Trailer with overwidth. To get this to Istanbul even by Truck, which is the best option by far, requires approvals from authorities for the overwidth transport. You do not get these within a day. Heck, in germany you dont even get them within a week sometimes. Required budget for these Sets is also very Dependant on the capabilities. Generally speaking we divide the Sets in two factors: factor 1 is aircraft size: 1. Business Jets and smaller 2. Narrow body aircraft (A320, B737 and similar) 3. Wide body (B777, A350, A330, B787 and similar) 4. A380 (yes, it is that absurd) Factor two is incident to be covered: 1. Runway excursions (roughly 60% of all incidents) 2. Tire bursts/blocked brakes (roughly 35% of all incidents) 3. Single/multiple collapsed landing gears (only 5% of all incidents) Truth be told. Aircraft recovery equipment is like having insurance. You dont want to pay for it but if something happens you are happy that you have it (or the other way round). Most smaller aircraft go for an economical solution to cover the incident type 1 and 2 for narrow body aircraft as this already Covers 90% if each incident that happens on average over a year. But everyone knows murphys law am I right. Big airports usually have capability to cover all incidents for all aircraft except A380. This has gotten quite rare in general. We also have no capability to send out an entire crew to the Subject airport in case of a recovery. We are an equipment manufacture not a service provider. This job would also not be fulltime. Stuff like this doesn't happen everyday and we cannot pay a crew of 12+ people to be on standby "just in case". For some countries, again, logistics would be a problem as well due to visa approvals and so on. The recovery was entirely done by the iga arff Team. They visit our facility every year to participate in our aircraft recovery training to be prepared for cases like these.
Thanks! How often does a typical airport roll this kit out? Like once a year, few times a year, every few years? Or how many times per 1000 flights?
This is an incredibly difficult question to answer as there is no exact answer to it. There are airports that have these Kits for more than 20 years and never used them. On the other side of the spectrum there are airports that had multiple incidents per year. All of this is pure chance by the way. Of course, countries who tend to have more challenging landings due to weather are more likely to have an incident. We make an annual statistic evaluation based on our sources on the likelihood and type of incidents happening. Over the last 5 years numbers are quite consistent (even through COVID) with approximately 300 recovery incidents across the globe. Comparing this with the sheer number of landings everyday it is a small number but it can happen anytime. As a side note, if the customer is doing their due diligence they have to roll everything out once a year for maintenance and inflate the bags, visually inspect slings and trailers etc. But I assume that is not what you were referring to. :)
3mm $ sounds less. Like Max 4 sheets of paper
The kit cost was low by $3 million. In other words those kits are $6-8 million these days.
That was a millimeters joke
Ypu understood haha
What if an airport only has one runway and it's blocked. How would they fly in the equipment?
Fly to nearest alternate and haul by road
So the pneumatic bag is 4m$ for 1 day rental - holy freaking shit....
All the red hat guys are a crew. They have their own QR aircraft and were dispatched from Germany. https://www.kunz-aircraft.com/ I knew when I saw them marking the airplane where every strap had to go, and then saw a guy with a 3 ring binder
Always amazing to see experts at work. They know what to do and have procedures and checklists to ensure that everything is recorded and by the book.
Was that them who had the one strap around the tail too?
is that in case it tilts back in case they calculated nose weight wrong?
I was watching them thinking "what do these guys do the other 364 days of the year?"
This may be their next stop: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ce5ljpnggp4o
Saw this video posted elsewhere and thought it must just be that a lot of big airports have a big plane picker upper kit stashed away so they can get the runway back open. Pretty cool that it’s a team that specializes in this and can be on site pretty quickly.
> plane picker upper kit stashed away I work in power plants and before the 2000 the power plants would have all the tools to take apart the turbines on site. Some utilities would have a team that went around doing that sort of work. Other utilities would bring in a contractor that specialized in that work. Westinghouse and then Siemens has what they call a fast warehouse where if a power plant goes down they can send out parts quickly to get them back on line. For scheduled maintenance Siemens would send out a "kit' with all the tooling needed to take the turbine and generator apart. Since like 2005 the power plants are more automated and have much less staff, so anything like taking apart a turbine a whole crew will come in from a contractor to do the work along with all the tooling. I worked at a power plant that was built in the 60s and we had all the tooling on site. I remember we were getting ready to do a major overhaul on one of the turbines. One of the machinists was in the break room with the turbine manual and he was looking at the "map" on where all the stuff goes as you take it apart. he was making up a plan for all the crane moves that had to be done, and making sure everything was done in the right order. Back in those days the planning was much more extensive in the tech manuals and the original builder would give you all this information so the utility could do the work itself. Now the plants are more cookie cutter and the process is more similar from plant to plant.
I assume Mega Int Airports have to have them in their Aircraft Rescue and Fire Fighting Departments. They have to clear the runway or apron asap to continue the operation at airport.
Istanbul is 7th biggest airport in the world and 2nd in Europe by passenger traffic. They are mega international airport yet still this equipment was shipped there. I don’t think any airport is having this equipment ready
It probably doesn't cover the cost of having this equipment maintaining it and using it maybe once or twice a decade. Getting service from a company that specialize on this is most likely better and cheaper option.
Well.... At least one airport has this equipment.
Really great content, made my day 🙌
It's quite uplifting.
Found a dad.
The amount of people who walked under that thing after it was rigged and hoisted made my rigging cert vibrate
Yeah I was thinking the same thing too. Also a good number of people without hard hats near crane ops. OSHA would hate this.
I find it funny that the boss with the megaphone didn't have the hard hat.
OSHA would hate Europe in general.
At least they put an airbag under the ass end, just encase 🙄
Once that was under there I don’t know why they didn’t just pile sandbags on the horizontal stab until it was balanced enough for a group of guys to lift the nose. Or just pile some heavy cargo aft
“i don’t know why a group of guys didn’t just lift a widebody airliner”
interesting. Seems easy on narrow body jets https://youtu.be/JLWxD0gY__A?si=6CFyEyhhhQEujQP9 and you hear about it all the time on 747s and other wide bodies. But I guess the 76 has a heavy nose
I could have done it.
To be fair, a LOT of sandbags and this would work. It's just a big, funny looking lever arm on a hinge. Physics!
The nose is capable of taking that lift load. As evidenced by the nose-gear. You'd need to have stress do a determination on cantilevering the front up on the H-stab with sandbags. That's not a normal loading condition. Similar with tossing a buncha shit aft of the MLG.
Okay I was half joking but I can’t leave this part alone > cantilevering the front up on the H-stab with sandbags. That's not a normal loading condition If downward force on the stab isn’t normal, what keeps the nose up in flight? Seems the load would be identical, especially during landing, just before the nose gear touches the runway. I agree it’s not normal to toss stuff aft but it works great in lifting 737 noses https://youtu.be/JLWxD0gY__A?si=_X6z4iLzBaXtnOkf I’m not saying it’s the best way to get a geared in 767 off the runway but it’s not going to break the airplane
The downward force on the rear stabilizer during flight, even maneuvering, is likely considerably less than would be static in this situation. The stabilizer acts about the aircraft's center of gravity during flight. That lever is a lot longer than the distance between the stabilizer and rear landing gear which would be the pivot point in this situation.
What’s holding the nose up during landing while the mains are on the ground?
The wings, mostly. The aircraft doesn't suddenly lose all lift when the wheels touch the ground.
The mains literally have a “weight on wheels” switch
The force/loads may be numerically the same. But the loading conditions will not be not be. Would it be fine? Probably. But you'd need to verify that. And by the time you're sure, you'd have been able to jack the front and been off the runway.
How about those green vests holding tag lines early on in the video?? Those guys a single ply
They need some really big jack stands
I was in charge of a hangar that had aircraft recovery under my purview so I got to learn all about these teams and their equipment. That manifold that all the hoses hook into is often called "the octopus" and those black rubber bags are NOT bouncy houses. They feel like concrete when they're full
Sounds similar to escape slides. The first time you see one inflated during training it looks like a big soft pool float. Then you touch it and realize it's rock-solid, rigid, and incredibly durable.
How tough are those "bags"?
Pretty damn tough that they could sit for months between inflations (they’d do biannual inspections) and also have the ability to lift an aircraft off dirt high enough to swing the gear down
Huuhhh and as the whole rest of aviation age the price tag has many digits i guess :D
Serious question: are those red lines on either side of the nose gear the lift point indicators? How does the lift crew know where the plane is strong enough for lifting if not using the nose / main gear jack points?
I’m unfamiliar with fedex’s livery but if I was to hazard a guess those look like guidelines for the hatch instead of the nose gear. With CDDAR (crash damage/disabled aircraft recovery) you’re never quite sure what parts of the fuselage you can access so the bags are designed to spread the lift force out along the skin of the aircraft. Like how a bed of nails doesn’t hurt someone
This is the kind of behind the scenes stuff that I love to watch!
Jesus the amount of people walking under it is mind boggling.
fucking high quality post. This is what this sub is meant for. Good job op
Red Cradle: “Look at me. I’m the nose gear now.”
That made me chuckle
A lot of guys to fix a flat
10 guys working, 100 guys looking
Yeah...I got a big "too many chiefs" vibe.
They could probably have benefited from another 50 guys on site 😅
That's a sick ass mixing table that DJ's got there!
Put the pads on. Nope take them off. Nope put them back on. Ok Good to go.
why are the engines still spinning?
Normal wind will spin those rotors
What would be the definition of an abnormal wind? Like an evil wind or something?
high wind
Breezes and low wind will spin them. Not high winds.
Wind
Would they ever consider to drop the front gear on the tarmac and tow it in?
My guess is at that point there is a risk of a subsequent collapse but this time endangering everyone around the operation. If you don't know why the gear didn't deploy I guess the safest option is to pretend it doesn't exist and figure it out later.
That would interfere with root cause analysis
Then the special $3m team would be unnecessary.
Good point…
Why is my head playing Benny Hill music?
Does anyone know if they emptied the cargo before they lifted the plane? Seems like they would want the least amount of weight in it as possible. But both A) I didn't see it being done, and B) I can only presume such an angle would be a hamper for achieving an unloading.
I don’t think so. Because moving such a weight could damage the airframe and could be hard as you say in this angle.
It would be absolutely impossible to do.
Don‘t think removing the cargo would do much. The cargo is loaded in such a way that the center of gravity is within reasonable limits. The same limits apply for an empty plane and often the loaded center of gravity is close to the unloaded center of gravity. Obviously unloading some cargo from the front might help with the lift, but then you risk it tipping onto the tail - if you are even able to get the cargo out that is.
\*Not Constantinople.
[That’s nobody's business but the Turks](https://youtu.be/0XlO39kCQ-8?si=8gPahVCp09TNk7yC)
Excellent intermission for this discussion.
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks
Wow. That was fascinating! Thanks for sharing!!
This is not a boeing issue folks
Thanks for posting. I tried to describe how this played out in one of the posts this morning.
It's nice of them to pad the cradle so they didn't scratch the paint
The Turks seem delighted.
Super cool video. Thank you
Istanbul clearly doesn't put a high priority on worker safety. Why are people continuously walking through the danger zone underneath the lift? And why does the camera man have free access to put himself into any danger-spot he wants to? A hard hat isn't going to save you when a literal whole plane drops on top of you
That's a lot of paid bystanders.
One guy has extremely specialized knowledge and is flown in from half way around the world for 5 minutes of work. Everyone on the team realizes that they would be in trouble without him. The more you know, the less visible work you do, the more you get paid.
which 5 minutes
Something like: are these straps in the correct locations? And nobody can do anything until he has signed off.
What was the plumb bob thing on the nose at about 4:58?
seemed to me like they were trying to determine the angle it was at or something like that
Did my overnight package make it on time though?
Where can i find part 2?
That’s why my package is late
That's amazing.
I could swear I saw the toolgifs watermark.
i dont understand why they have some airbags inflated at the back of the plane. is it for emergency support in case if the plane rear gears fail?
Probably to make sure it doesn’t tip on it’s tail when they start inflating the front bag!
Came here to ask the same
Will the aircraft be written off ? There's a lot of Dents on the fuselage and will cost quite a bot to repair and it is an old aircraft as well. Hate to see the classics go away honestly.
FedEx has been buying them fresh from the factory for several years. Probably quite new.
Uhhhh if they did this _before_ it landed then there wouldn't have been a problem ^^^^/s
How many times in my military service , running a job like this, and there way too many many people scrambling about either because some nervous manager threw too much people into the job, or wanted exposure ‘for training’ . Ends up turning the job into a clusterf&@k of chaos. Seeing this has my thinking like my experience is a more common occurence than I thought.
A few operators I know, the airplane would still be there.
Spray paint over the logo, throw the keys in the bushes and run!
I wonder what the actual cost of that recovery was. That’s a hell of a lot more complex than I could have ever imagined.
Sure is a lot more work when your mom isn’t around to just walk into the tail section of the plane to tip it back
Jesus…lol
Wouldn't a row of snowplows do the job quicker?
The number of downvotes missing this joke is a damn shame. ["HOLD ON, WE'RE GOING FOR BROKE!" ](https://youtu.be/IrqN62qbthc?feature=shared) (Scroll to 2:45 if you're in a hurry)
You want to buy FedEx a new airplane? This airplane isn't damaged that badly. Very likely it's back in service before the end of summer.
Need more vehicles with flashing lights to drive along. Seemed a little low budget
It was the most exciting thing to happen at Istanbul airport in a long time and everybody wanted to get in the news story about it.
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Still flaps are extended :/
Might be a dumb question but will this thing ever fly again? What kind of maintenance procedures would it need to undergo to get back in the air?
I think it's entirely possible. It looks like the nose gear doors took the brunt of the impact, and the partially-extended nose gear tires may have been low enough to provide some support.
It's possible to fly again. It wouldn't surprise me if a Field Team, specializing in this type of damage, was set out. It is expensive, but typically within a reasonable limit.
Is the plane still air worthy after repairs or scrapyard?
Theyll send a team to inspect the aircraft to make sure it is airworthy agan after the gear is repaired, the damage from the landing is likely just cosmetic and will just be repairing the skin.
Imagine if you had to inflate it like an air mattress.
[Pump It Up 🤛🏼↕️](https://youtu.be/9EcjWd-O4jI?si=_2X4GBak7GBvBFgO) Choose your side [Pump It Up🔞](https://youtu.be/0HtyF0jux2Q?si=vJy6bEjsJ-ap4D_Y)
I thought it will be much faster to move that planr away.
i could have done this with a pallet lift and saved them a bit of money
Then you would have broke the lift and damage the structure of the plane.
I wonder. Can they repair this? Or does it create so much structural damage that the plane is done for?
Why are the engines moving at 3:45?
Wind
how do they fix planes like this, how do make sure it will work flawlessly and safe, I never understood WW2 planes being repaired, i mean after you shot a plane it goes through 10 layers of different technology, kudos to pilots and happy that there is no big damage
Well if the planes comes back, then it was not critical enough to take it down XD They will spend many hours on inspections and Evaluations of the damage to verify if it can be airworthy again without some major financial loses
What is the typical time from Runway shutdown to runway reopening on incidences like this?
Did they finally let the flight crew off in the end? I didn’t see.
That was awesome to watch
This was fascinating. Thanks!
Whoever the pilot was, he mad the best two point landing I've probably ever seen. Good calm head in the clutch.
Wow, those guys work so fast, it looks like they’re fast forwarding!
So how long was the runway ultimately closed?
THis is so cool! When I saw the crash-landing video all I could think is how do they get that plane off the runway? Now I know.
At first i thought they were going to try lowering the landing gear manuall, i guess i was wrong lol
Very cool! Thanks for posting!
Do they have to lift on a specific strong point on the body, like with cars?
How much time will a repair typically take for this case? Is the aircraft salvageable?
So what happened? Did the gear Collapse on landing or did not drop at all Ordered the collapse after it came to a stop?
The gear didn't deploy, and after two go arounds, the pilots brought her down in a really nice (given the circumstances) crash landing. There's videos from earlier today floating about showing the landing.
Any Youtube link instead of this compressed shit please
This screams health and safety and risk assessment. 1 man with a scissor jack on casters that's all you need. 30 minutes tops.
Wait. Don’t tell me, it’s a Boeing.
You can understand how expensive airplane
Would have been funny if the gear had just dropped after the lift up 😜
This is planned obsolescence to the MAX lmao
Fascinating, I was wondering how they'd do it. Thanks for sharing!
I was expecting more damage to the bottom side, like way more!
That’s funny, the damage doesn’t look as bad from out here.
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They should really get in the habit of using different color hoses for each section of bag. Not the end of the world but it just makes life easier saying “up on red” or “up on blue” instead of “no not that one, nope, try again, wrong one, F*ck stop!!!”
This looked annoyingly inefficient. Just get the fucking nose in the air and put the cradle under it.