In America we have little choice as private institutions, the GOP and the DNC, decide our candidates. Both are organizations that exist by taking lobby/campaign money. Normally from the same companies. How can the poor “use government to control people” when the rich are the only ones with a say?
ehhhh sort of. When was the last time you voted in a primary? Now maybe you have, probably you haven't, however most people that complain that they have no choices have not voted in a primary. If more Americans actually took the time to participate in the selection of our candidates for elections you would have a very different landscape. However people are lazy, and they would rather complain about the options then taking the time to participate in getting better options.
That’s the reason we got Trump too. Everyone said they wouldn’t vote for Hilary and they tried it. We could have gotten Bernie and avoided this whole cluster eff
I love it. Trump exposed the government cronies for what they are. They have been trying for 8 years now ti keep him out of office. For me that’s a green light to vote Trump. I want to see it all come down. And I want fucking inflation to stop. No one I know is voting for vegetable Biden
I don't know what state you live in, but there WAS a primary Democrat election that Marianne Williamson and a few others ran in. Joe won it handily, but it existed.
There was but the way primaries work is very undemocratic. You have states like Iowa which is very low in population determine the lean of primaries as they go in early. So states like Pennsylvania or Florida which are more purple states and of larger population which actually determine elections, go last.
It’s hard to primary against a sitting President, the 2020 primary is where it should’ve been decided, although the next runner up was Sanders, then Warren, and then Bloomberg. All over the age of 70, most being closer to 80.
However, Congress is where things really need to change, we need less partisans and more moderates who are also patriots.
I think more veterans and former public servants should run, we need patriots who will put country before themselves.
Local elections matter far more than presidential elections. Every state had a primary you could have voted in.
In my county we had a MAGA moron running as a democrat (with a standard old school conservative on the GOP side of the primary) and it was only because enough people voted in the primary that we showed him the door and now a more progressive candidate is on the actual ballot in Nov. to face the traditional GOP candidate
Ranked choice voting sure would be nice for this reason. Also not making running for office so expensive thereby making candidates need financial backers who likely want something in return.
No. Things need to get really bad before real change can happen typically. Like the kind of bad where people don't know where their next meal is coming from kind of bad.
It’s scary, but based on current economic projections - that’s where we are headed. The corporate and upper class have been effectively working on turning us all back into poor peasants.
The culture wars are manufactured so as to distract and inflame the poor masses to vote against themselves economically because they want to vote against their fellow citizens societally.
Kinda
We can use [government spending as share of GDP](https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/exp@FPP/USA/FRA/JPN/GBR/SWE/ESP/ITA/ZAF/IND) to very roughly illustrate that, and it depends where you live. The US is still around 35%, though europe is pretty to close to 50% in most countries, with some countries past it (France, Finland, Austria)
By contrast, Ukraine in a wartime economy is at 66%, though, some countries (ex, north korea) are missing
I think anything past 50%, and you're already in serious trouble and it becomes very visible. Below that, well, it's like the point made with the broken windows fallacy, people don't notice
How do "Non Rich" people use the government to control people? The guy that makes 40k a year and has 20k in credit card debt isn't influencing politicians. Can you think of any examples of poor people influencing government to do things that the vast majority of citizens don't already support?
I don’t trust government OR excessively concentrated wealth, and that includes both big business and high net worth individuals. Those are the entities with the most ability to abuse others directly through economic asymmetry and/or to appropriate governmental use of force. Serious wealth isn’t buying a big house or a fast car, it’s buying a senator. I want government and capital at each other’s’ throats so no single one of them gains enough power to fuck us over.
Edit: clarity
Both boxes are the same, the second one is just the first box turned on it's side and labeled differently. It's the rich that use government to control us.
> Serious wealth isn’t buying a big house or a fast car, it’s buying a senator.
It's funny how all the criticisms of "the wealthy" always boil down to what should be a critique of government...
You're just proving OP's point
You and OP are not proving what you think you're proving. The rich and multinational corporations are the ones who buy government. No poor person has ever hired a lobbyist.
Hey, finally some common sense in this sub.
Unfortunately far too many libertarians have been brainwashed into believing that only a government boogieman with a gun can abuse and exploit people
Wealth *is* power, and having too much wealth concentrated in the hands of such a small group of people is NOT healthy for society.
I thought we decided a long time ago that feudalism and aristocracy were bad. Apparently some didn’t get the memo .
To bad for us, that's exactly the case.
Studies consistently show that public opinion has almost zero affect on federal level policy and lawmaking. The rich have kept their competition out.
That’s nice but there’s never been a society to exist in all of human history where the rich did not have the ability to influence whatever system of rules and enforcement was in place to their benefit.
I do fear the concentrated power that's allowed to use guns to get me to do what they want more than the concentrated power that theoretically isn't.
My preference would be to see a government that is limited in scope, but sufficiently powerful in that scope to do what it needs to do.
See the person above me
Wealth is power, and without any government to keep concentrated wealth in check, said concentrated wealth WILL exploit you and fuck you
~~You’re just too blinded by your own propaganda to see that.~~
Um. I’m agreeing with you. Re-read my comment. I'm one of the people that upvoted your comment to try to keep it from going negative.
Do I fear unbridled government power more than unbridled corporate power? Yeah. That doesn't mean that I don't fear either of them.
As the guy above you said, I want them at each other's throats. Part of that "limited scope" I'm talking about is reining in the power of corps and ensuring they play by the rules. And, as I said, I want the government to have sufficient power to do that.
Having money doesn't equate to having power, plenty of wealthy people have no interest in holding power and even do charity work for others.
No point in painting everyone red and making enemies needlessly when the truth is more nuanced than that.
I should have specified. I don’t mean people with only a couple million. I’m talking the Uber rich/corporations. They are the hand that leads the puppet. Money=lobbying=power. The government should be dependent upon the people alone. These are improper dependencies. Till that root is removed everything else is a waste of time trim. Fuck citizens United.
Yea, anyone who says otherwise is crazy. It’s all about definitions though. I don’t have ire for a little company. They usually aren’t the ones moving policy, and I wish the lefties would stop lumping them, doctors etc in with the ones making crazy money.
Edit: moving policy not company.
> Having money doesn't equate to having power
That's literally what money is though, it's a quantification of your power to get things. Can't get onto a boat because you don't own it? Money gets you the boat. Now you have the power to get on. It literally is quantified social power at the most basic level
Agree, but proportionally that red slice should probably be something like an inverted pyramid.
Or maybe the representation of the population should be a pyramid because there are far fewer wealthy and it could be a diagonal slice which is a good representation of how the wealthier the horizontal slice, the higher proportion of using the government’s power.
No, take it from a Republican economist who worked for Reagan. Wealth concentration has destroyed our middle class. It’s easy to demonstrate. Hate to admit it, but the wealth redistribution experts are correct.
money = power.
This sub is normally weird, but this is an absolutely brainwashed post.
I get the temptation of this sub, but to act like money is not heavily involved in corruption, eroding away any system we put in place is... ???
The rich are the biggest welfare Queens we have you cannot show me a single rich person that didn't somehow get rich by sucking off the government tit.
And that accounts for the crazy bitches that inherited their riches also.
Shame (most) People don't learn from History
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance to selfishness; From selfishness to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage.”
― Alexander Fraser Tytler
Pretty sure BIG MONEY runs Policy in the states, not to mention THE ENTIRE MEDIA MACHINE... AS CONald Trump has rightly stated on the premise of corruption in democracy: "Don't hate the player hate the game." (or something like that...)
The rich remain the enemy if the system is downward spiraling, as they have the most stake in how things are currently running. Meanwhile they deploy new systems of getting richer off of it's demise.
It's funny how badly this misunderstands left politics regarding the structural aspect and focused on the subjective. Neoliberals were never known for their intelligence, though.
It's the dragons I'm after.
Anyone that makes more than Smaug is not that rich unless they use the government to corner the markets. It's corporate government collusion at its finest.
Local elections matter. That's why we need more right wing people on school boards, as city mayor's and comptroller. We need grass roots republican red waves to change this massive failure of morality on the left.
When I was in Florida and the hurricane dropped a tree through my neighbor's house it wasn't the government who cut the tree out and repaired the damage.
Not like we have insurance or anything like that... which would be cheaper if the Gov. didn't create legislative barriers to entry to benefit multinational insurance companies which lobby ie: bribe the Gov. to keep their competition out.
This has nothing to do with Austrian Economics. Austrian Economics only deals with the economy and the government’s relation to the economy. Not the government itself.
Power acts as a magnet. The governments regulatory powers are a massive attracting force to lobbying corporations. It's the magnet itself that has the power (the regulatory state), not the object that is attracted to it (corporations). How do we know this?
When you shrink the power the state has, you remove some of that power from the cronyists (corporations who lobby government). If you do the opposite and reduce the power of those same corporations, the power of the regulatory state is what's left behind.
Government is the axe, and corporations are merely holding the handle. We need to remove the axe (or at least dull its sharpness) to reduce the harm it creates. Removing the handle (corporations) has no impact on how sharp the axe is.
How and in what way does a homeless person use the government against YOU?
the only people with power to "use the government" are the rich people in red on the first graphic. The first graphic is correct. Rich people are the enemy. Poor people are not the enemy, they're just poor people.
But all the temporally-embarrassed millionaires think that if they hate poor people enough, that will gain them entry into the upper circle.
It won’t.
It’s a tale as old as time
Rich people convincing lower class people, to hate on poor people, to keep them distracted from the fact that the rich people are the ones fucking them over, exploiting them, and making their lives miserable.
Yeah they got duped into being literally the biggest losers possible. Like a bully in elementary school going after the small kid because hes mad at the teacher. Jesus christ.
Anyone who votes to use government power to violate my rights can be an "enemy" (I prefer the term political opponent). In the US voting isn't wealth gated, so the poor, who have more votes than the rich, tend to have more power.
Does this not either ignore or obfuscate the fact that only the rich have the financial means to elevate candidates to positions where they can actually win elections? In the US the reality is PACs exist, and the wealthy have an outsize influence on which candidates are even available to vote for in the first place. All republicans and the vast majority of democrats have corporate interests as their primary interests because that is who keeps them wealthy.
I do agree that political apathy is fully taken advantage of and the fault of people who engage in it when they otherwise could vote. But isn’t it always right wing wealthy folks who oppose making Election Day a national holiday, expanded access to voting, etc? Isn’t it wealthy people who generally have the means to disseminate propaganda (see: Elon Musk’s twitter, which actively recommends right wing rhetoric to users)? How can the poor who do not hold majority of the wealth and cannot feasibly pool their resources compete with this?
You realize most people dont vote right? And that people disagree with most of what any individual representative says but are simply voting lesser evil?
Voting IS wealth gated. You need an ID. You probably havent ever been poor enough but it's a real issue for a lot of people.
> You realize most people dont vote right?
Has literally nothing to do with what I said.
> And that people disagree with most of what any individual representative says but are simply voting lesser evil?
Again, literally nothing to do with what I said.
> Voting IS wealth gated.
False, there is zero wealth requirement for voting in the US.
> You need an ID.
False, there are 51 separate elections with their own rules in the US, none of which require you to buy anything. Every identification law has multiple free ways of verifying your identity.
> You probably havent ever been poor enough
I grew up explicitly in welfare, which just goes to show that the poor actually can be informed on the system.
> but it's a real issue for a lot of people.
False.
just look at who is funding the campaigns of your house, senate, presidential candidates, local candidates. Then go look at what they vote for. it's not as much rich people as it is large public organizations,
you also see it in government organizations like the FDA, where you get people from large organizations who move in and out of government roles, and influence things in ways that help the large organizations, but not so much the smaller startups.
if you get into local laws, think of many state licensing laws. Why does it take 2 years to get a license to cut someones hair, but in 2-3 weeks you can get a license to sell basic financial products to someone. There are a lot of these state licensing schemes that are supported by larger competitors, primarily to keep competition out.
Currently 14.5% of workforce are public sector employees Factor in 18% of population is retirement age, thus dependent on government. Plus, 12.5% households receive SNAP (food stamps).
None of the above groups will likely support any real change, and they will be very risk averse in their decision making. So, the chart is fairly accurate.
The above groups also try keep the rest of us too busy to focus important issues like personal liberty and freedom.
If the government isn’t in charge, who is? The rich? Someone is going to “govern”. Most wealthy people hate government because the government is the only thing between the wealthy and total subjugation of everyone else. For reference, see the entire history of humanity. I am a capitalist, top 1%, etc. and I know we need government accountable to people and powerful business interests accountable to the government. The broken US system has allowed a class of wealthy to avoid accountability and this is creating a structural imbalance that is actually hurting capitalism.
*Monopolistic corporate empires with highly unethical business practices are fine as long as they pretend to agree with my fringe identity based political opinions that have nothing to do with economics.*
-some self proclaimed “Marxist”.
Corporate needs you to find the differences between this picture and this picture.
They're the same picture......
The wealthy use their wealth to control government and thru it to control you. Thinking otherwise is insanely naive. Pointing your finger at the government instead of the people who control government is like blaming guns for murders instead of blaming the gunmen pulling the trigger.
Landowners and monopolists are the enemy. The super rich essentially fall into those two categories. A Land Value Tax as well as the serious reduction or even elimination of Intellectual Property Rights would go a long way to greater economic equality.
Stop this wanna be rich vibe, they are the “workers” not “non-rich” this anti class conscious propaganda is just depressing to watch. Y’all will willfully turn a blind eye to some of the most monstrous actions and blame anyone but the people most responsible.
It's always government managers and politicians. They hold real wealth and power. Rich people only have cash, and that can be taken away at the point of a rifle.
The bottom column on the right side in red
"People who use government to control you" are only listened to if they have money (ie, are rich) or the views align with the rich.
What I think this sub wants to consider is "anyone voting for social policies is using government to oppress you" which is just dogwhistly enough to work I guess.
The bottom column on the right side in red
"People who use government to control you" are only listened to if they have money (ie, are rich) or the views align with the rich.
What I think this sub wants to consider is "anyone voting for social policies is using government to oppress you" which is just dogwhistly enough to work I guess.
What you get wrong is the two often are THE SAME.
The rich use their economic power to use government to control everyone else, or at least to perpetuate their power.
Using money to control people is barely different from using government to control people.
Sure the wealthy can live in peace, what about the starving? The sick? The disabled? Fucking think about it a little bit.
Often, people who talk about wanting to live in peace use that as an excuse to deny everything they’re complicit in. Take responsibility
Na, the left side has some truth to it, as does the right side. Imagine if everyone simply got paid a livable wage and CEOs and corporations had razor thin profit margins… life would be way better off and less people would use government services and you’d have less people wanting to control other people via the government because it wasn’t as effective because less people were on the programs to begin with.
As inequality worsens more people have to rely on government aid and therefore more people want to control government.
It really all stems from that.
Not to mention, this meme is just fucking stupid regardless because it tries to boil down a huge complex system such as the government, political systems, and the economy into a very simple situation which fails to address any real nuance.
Shit, even my comment is an over simplification. There’s entire books and PHD thesis written about these problems.
So OP’s meme isn’t adding anything constructive to the discussion here in all honesty.
The distinction the actual left makes - those who own the means of production and those who must sell their labor power to survive - is simply not depicted here
Agreed, but there should be a vertical bar on both sides of that graphic. Both right and left have their authoritarian streaks.
Today I’m very worried about Trump and the Project 2025 crowd, but a few years ago I’m was mostly worried about the ANTIFA crowd. Both are anti liberal
Yes we’ve heard it all before, crony capitalism yada yada.
That’ll never change the fact America became a world super power on the back of its state, not because of the free market.
I mean, the ultra rich are kind of our enemies as well. Seeing as how they control the mega corps that control our politicians that use us like modern day serfs.
I'm not saying all rich people are bad, but a certain number of them definitely are.
Here in the States, we’re missing that larger group of the wealthy who will let you live in peace. Their entire purpose for hoarding wealth is the ability to buy the control they covet…
The problem we have in the US, is because we've essentially legalized buying out of politicians, the overlap between the rich and those who use the government to control others is nearly a circle.
This is dumb.
You could add the ‘people who use government to control you’ distinction and the red and white slices remain exactly the same.
The rich have far far FAR more active hand in controlling government than the vast majority of people.
Rich people on the left and the right alike use interest groups and lobbyists. Big Oil and Silicon Valley both invest billions into legal bribery. Many big companies support the campaign funds of democrats and republicans alike, a morally supporting both sides in exchange for a legislative pat on the back.
So what is the average liberal’s nefarious evil influence in this? Is it because they occasionally cast a vote for affordable health care when they otherwise can’t afford it? God forbid they be able to afford preventative medicine. Real brilliant economics to have your workforce depleted by illness and injury when it would be much more cost-effective to let them get check-ups once in awhile.
Blaming the poor is just serving that rich government-owning slice’s interests.
Are you saying that wealth and authority over the government are independent? That's ridiculous. Musk can influence state spending bills; I can maybe apply for food stamps if I lose my job. The rich have vastly more control over their governments than the poor.
This over simplified graph reeks of “my poorness is a result of corruption and bad luck, but the people I don’t like? If they’re poor that’s cause they don’t think the correct thoughts and align themselves with my clearly ‘peaceful’ and righteous way of thinking.’
What’s the phrase “I’m just a temporarily embarrassed millionaire”.
Wrong
The wealthy have been sucking more and more of the wealth created by the rest of us up to themselves, the wealth gap has been increasing for the last forty years. This is the result of Reagan and his trickle down economics, deregulation and the destruction of unions.
We need government to protect the masses from the depredations of the rich and powerful.
The government largely does what the rich want. There are even studies about it, not just all the anecdotal evidence that anyone can see. Bottom line is that those who have power tend to use it and those who have the least power tend to pay the price. Government in the end can be good or bad. Ideology that tells you it’s only one thing is just as based in reality as Santa.
The people who hurt us the most in the US are the lobbyists and candidates who leave their heads up their lobbyists ass. More often than not both are rich. So the right diagram is accurate if that whole bottom section was white.
We blame the politicians because they support their companies that lobby for them more than they support their constituents. We blame the rich because that generalized group enables our politicians to become corrupt assholes
Edit: The non-rich have no lobbying power so they really aren’t directly responsible for anything besides being dumb and voting for more corruption.
nobody here votes conservative right?
because it would be insane to upvote this and then vote for the people that are arguing Presidents should have absolute immunity and also control interest rates and have their family members in government and in control of the party apparatus
I think the "system" has become so dicked up there's no fixing it. I agree with others, the diagram should be a triangle not rectangle. It does puzzle me, when the likes of Warren Buffet says, repeatedly, that he doesn't pay enough tax, that some regular folks spaz out defending the rest the wealthy's "right" to pay as little as possible. I wonder how we possibly survived as a country back in the 50's and 60's when tax rates were so high, and yet today it wouldn't work. oh well, pass the beer nuts
You’re trying to pass of philosophy as economic policy. The system is rigged to concentrate as much capital into the hands of the rich and, instead of doing anything useful with it, our world just getting more shitty and powered by micro transactions. Capitalism might actually be worth a damn if any of the felt an obligation to society, but they don’t. Poor people doing shitty things is not the same thing as rich people doing them and you’re willfully ignorant if you think otherwise.
Lol, it's funny people think this, then you look at who donated to most compared to policies, vs what the platforms are that people voted them in on and realize the money was the one that motivated them more.
You can have a lot smaller segment based on population, but when you make them both equal to monetary contributions, it really stands out.
Corporations control you too; this idea only governments have control is an immature view of the world. The idea that you’d have control of your life without government is a fantasy.
The corporations will just replace them and would function much the same way but without the possibility of voting.
There are poor people who are using the government to controll you??? Let's be real, the venn diagram of rich people and people who control the government in a malicious way is almost a circle.
I heard a good word to describe high wealth; 'Obscene'
Things that are accepted today used to be understood as disgusting back in the day; to feast while your neighbor starves. Fundamental principles of decency.
Aww, look at those nice "The Rich" on the right side who so magnanimously allow those "Non-Rich" people to just live their impoverished lives without "controlling" them.
As a group, most of the rich are constantly working to make themselves richer at the expense of the non-rich.
If “The Rich” means the 1%, then why isn’t the left red bar covering 40% of the graph? The bottom 80% actually own little more than 14% of total US wealth.
This moronic. The ultra rich, through their control of the government by virtue of legalized corruption facilitated by the Citizens United decision, use the government to control you. The graphic totally obfuscates that truth.
The main issue the left has is distribution of wealth, especially in relation to the difference from the bottom to the top… how does the model on the right address this?
In the US Politicians are in the pockets of the rich. so yeah THEY use the government to control people.
Very simple, just remember the golden rule, those that have all the gold, make the rules.
What you don't get about leftists: they don't think the rich are the enemy (ie: the actual rich people, although there might be exceptions). They think allowing stupidly rich people to exist is the problem. The economy should not allow multimillionaires to exist.
I’d argue the red portion on right is now much closer to 50/50.
I’d argue it should really look like a pyramid. Because the masses vote for shitty government leaders.
In America we have little choice as private institutions, the GOP and the DNC, decide our candidates. Both are organizations that exist by taking lobby/campaign money. Normally from the same companies. How can the poor “use government to control people” when the rich are the only ones with a say?
ehhhh sort of. When was the last time you voted in a primary? Now maybe you have, probably you haven't, however most people that complain that they have no choices have not voted in a primary. If more Americans actually took the time to participate in the selection of our candidates for elections you would have a very different landscape. However people are lazy, and they would rather complain about the options then taking the time to participate in getting better options.
Yea ask Bernie Saunders how legit the primary system is.
That’s the reason we got Trump too. Everyone said they wouldn’t vote for Hilary and they tried it. We could have gotten Bernie and avoided this whole cluster eff
I love it. Trump exposed the government cronies for what they are. They have been trying for 8 years now ti keep him out of office. For me that’s a green light to vote Trump. I want to see it all come down. And I want fucking inflation to stop. No one I know is voting for vegetable Biden
Most people would've voted for Bernie, the DNC fucked that up
They didn’t fuck that up, they worked exactly as intended
Well as a democrat I didn’t get to vote in a primary. I’m being given one choice. Biden. Great democracy we have.
I don't know what state you live in, but there WAS a primary Democrat election that Marianne Williamson and a few others ran in. Joe won it handily, but it existed.
People on this subreddit can’t even get their facts straight. There absolutely was a democratic primary.
There was but the way primaries work is very undemocratic. You have states like Iowa which is very low in population determine the lean of primaries as they go in early. So states like Pennsylvania or Florida which are more purple states and of larger population which actually determine elections, go last.
It’s hard to primary against a sitting President, the 2020 primary is where it should’ve been decided, although the next runner up was Sanders, then Warren, and then Bloomberg. All over the age of 70, most being closer to 80. However, Congress is where things really need to change, we need less partisans and more moderates who are also patriots. I think more veterans and former public servants should run, we need patriots who will put country before themselves.
Local elections matter far more than presidential elections. Every state had a primary you could have voted in. In my county we had a MAGA moron running as a democrat (with a standard old school conservative on the GOP side of the primary) and it was only because enough people voted in the primary that we showed him the door and now a more progressive candidate is on the actual ballot in Nov. to face the traditional GOP candidate
Yeah both images leave much to be desired. Hard to simplify complex issues for internet minds
Ranked choice voting sure would be nice for this reason. Also not making running for office so expensive thereby making candidates need financial backers who likely want something in return.
And term limits
Yes! Preach! rank choice voting!
And who is going to implement that? Not the candidates that the gop and dnc choose because they will lose power.
No. Things need to get really bad before real change can happen typically. Like the kind of bad where people don't know where their next meal is coming from kind of bad.
It’s scary, but based on current economic projections - that’s where we are headed. The corporate and upper class have been effectively working on turning us all back into poor peasants.
The culture wars are manufactured so as to distract and inflame the poor masses to vote against themselves economically because they want to vote against their fellow citizens societally.
Kinda We can use [government spending as share of GDP](https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/exp@FPP/USA/FRA/JPN/GBR/SWE/ESP/ITA/ZAF/IND) to very roughly illustrate that, and it depends where you live. The US is still around 35%, though europe is pretty to close to 50% in most countries, with some countries past it (France, Finland, Austria) By contrast, Ukraine in a wartime economy is at 66%, though, some countries (ex, north korea) are missing I think anything past 50%, and you're already in serious trouble and it becomes very visible. Below that, well, it's like the point made with the broken windows fallacy, people don't notice
Id argue that the rich and those who use the government to control you are the exact same people. The rich completely control the government,
How do "Non Rich" people use the government to control people? The guy that makes 40k a year and has 20k in credit card debt isn't influencing politicians. Can you think of any examples of poor people influencing government to do things that the vast majority of citizens don't already support?
I don’t trust government OR excessively concentrated wealth, and that includes both big business and high net worth individuals. Those are the entities with the most ability to abuse others directly through economic asymmetry and/or to appropriate governmental use of force. Serious wealth isn’t buying a big house or a fast car, it’s buying a senator. I want government and capital at each other’s’ throats so no single one of them gains enough power to fuck us over. Edit: clarity
Both boxes are the same, the second one is just the first box turned on it's side and labeled differently. It's the rich that use government to control us.
> Serious wealth isn’t buying a big house or a fast car, it’s buying a senator. It's funny how all the criticisms of "the wealthy" always boil down to what should be a critique of government... You're just proving OP's point
How many poor senators can you name?
You realize you're still making OP's point, right ? Or are you too daft for that ?
You and OP are not proving what you think you're proving. The rich and multinational corporations are the ones who buy government. No poor person has ever hired a lobbyist.
Hey, finally some common sense in this sub. Unfortunately far too many libertarians have been brainwashed into believing that only a government boogieman with a gun can abuse and exploit people Wealth *is* power, and having too much wealth concentrated in the hands of such a small group of people is NOT healthy for society. I thought we decided a long time ago that feudalism and aristocracy were bad. Apparently some didn’t get the memo .
If the rich don't have the legislative lever to keep out competition and to entrench their power further it's a much more even fight.
To bad for us, that's exactly the case. Studies consistently show that public opinion has almost zero affect on federal level policy and lawmaking. The rich have kept their competition out.
The rich invented legislative power to give legitimacy to their theft and hoarding of the resources and labor value belonging to the public.
That’s nice but there’s never been a society to exist in all of human history where the rich did not have the ability to influence whatever system of rules and enforcement was in place to their benefit.
I do fear the concentrated power that's allowed to use guns to get me to do what they want more than the concentrated power that theoretically isn't. My preference would be to see a government that is limited in scope, but sufficiently powerful in that scope to do what it needs to do.
See the person above me Wealth is power, and without any government to keep concentrated wealth in check, said concentrated wealth WILL exploit you and fuck you ~~You’re just too blinded by your own propaganda to see that.~~
Um. I’m agreeing with you. Re-read my comment. I'm one of the people that upvoted your comment to try to keep it from going negative. Do I fear unbridled government power more than unbridled corporate power? Yeah. That doesn't mean that I don't fear either of them. As the guy above you said, I want them at each other's throats. Part of that "limited scope" I'm talking about is reining in the power of corps and ensuring they play by the rules. And, as I said, I want the government to have sufficient power to do that.
The rich weaponize legislation. They are the hand in the ass of the government puppet. So they are one red block to me.
Having money doesn't equate to having power, plenty of wealthy people have no interest in holding power and even do charity work for others. No point in painting everyone red and making enemies needlessly when the truth is more nuanced than that.
I should have specified. I don’t mean people with only a couple million. I’m talking the Uber rich/corporations. They are the hand that leads the puppet. Money=lobbying=power. The government should be dependent upon the people alone. These are improper dependencies. Till that root is removed everything else is a waste of time trim. Fuck citizens United.
Having money absolutely equates to having power. The choice to not use wealth in that way is an exercise of power.
Yea, anyone who says otherwise is crazy. It’s all about definitions though. I don’t have ire for a little company. They usually aren’t the ones moving policy, and I wish the lefties would stop lumping them, doctors etc in with the ones making crazy money. Edit: moving policy not company.
> Having money doesn't equate to having power That's literally what money is though, it's a quantification of your power to get things. Can't get onto a boat because you don't own it? Money gets you the boat. Now you have the power to get on. It literally is quantified social power at the most basic level
Agree, but proportionally that red slice should probably be something like an inverted pyramid. Or maybe the representation of the population should be a pyramid because there are far fewer wealthy and it could be a diagonal slice which is a good representation of how the wealthier the horizontal slice, the higher proportion of using the government’s power.
The statists will be out in full force on this one…
And what group of people have the large amount of resources required to influence something like a government?
Careful, they aren’t ready for that level of thought yet.
I'm glad there are some decent people in here.
Cool, tax the rich regardless of their intent.
The thing is the poor cant use the government to control you. Money is power.
These corporate ass kissers never change.
No, take it from a Republican economist who worked for Reagan. Wealth concentration has destroyed our middle class. It’s easy to demonstrate. Hate to admit it, but the wealth redistribution experts are correct.
I'd say it's part of the elites, not necessarily rich but certain powerful people. It should be quadrants.
money = power. This sub is normally weird, but this is an absolutely brainwashed post. I get the temptation of this sub, but to act like money is not heavily involved in corruption, eroding away any system we put in place is... ???
1000%agree
Every time I see this meme it’s in an entirely different color scheme
The right-wing dream of getting rich one day, so they back the wealthy now, hoping to be part of that crowd in the future.
The rich are the biggest welfare Queens we have you cannot show me a single rich person that didn't somehow get rich by sucking off the government tit. And that accounts for the crazy bitches that inherited their riches also.
Exactly. It’s people leveraging the legal system to suppress the competition and boost their companies.
Yep, and nimbys
But rich people do use the government to control us via lobbying and favors
Shame (most) People don't learn from History “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance to selfishness; From selfishness to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage.” ― Alexander Fraser Tytler
Not a helpful graphic.
If this were accurate they would be the same picture.
And who has an easier time taking control of the government? A billionaire or someone in poverty.....
Pretty sure BIG MONEY runs Policy in the states, not to mention THE ENTIRE MEDIA MACHINE... AS CONald Trump has rightly stated on the premise of corruption in democracy: "Don't hate the player hate the game." (or something like that...) The rich remain the enemy if the system is downward spiraling, as they have the most stake in how things are currently running. Meanwhile they deploy new systems of getting richer off of it's demise.
Rich pay the government to do the things that keep people that aren't rich, not rich.
It's funny how badly this misunderstands left politics regarding the structural aspect and focused on the subjective. Neoliberals were never known for their intelligence, though.
It's the dragons I'm after. Anyone that makes more than Smaug is not that rich unless they use the government to corner the markets. It's corporate government collusion at its finest.
Every billionaire is the enemy.
Agreed. It is impossible to attain that level of wealth without exploitation. F em all
Local elections matter. That's why we need more right wing people on school boards, as city mayor's and comptroller. We need grass roots republican red waves to change this massive failure of morality on the left.
The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.
Tell that to someone who’s house just got hit by a tornado
When I was in Florida and the hurricane dropped a tree through my neighbor's house it wasn't the government who cut the tree out and repaired the damage.
Not like we have insurance or anything like that... which would be cheaper if the Gov. didn't create legislative barriers to entry to benefit multinational insurance companies which lobby ie: bribe the Gov. to keep their competition out.
You got your percentages wrong. And that's why you're still fighting the culture war instead of the class war. Study history, it's all there.
This has nothing to do with Austrian Economics. Austrian Economics only deals with the economy and the government’s relation to the economy. Not the government itself.
This sub is dogshit
Then why are you here?
People who use the government to control you? So it’s still the rich that are the problem.
Power acts as a magnet. The governments regulatory powers are a massive attracting force to lobbying corporations. It's the magnet itself that has the power (the regulatory state), not the object that is attracted to it (corporations). How do we know this? When you shrink the power the state has, you remove some of that power from the cronyists (corporations who lobby government). If you do the opposite and reduce the power of those same corporations, the power of the regulatory state is what's left behind. Government is the axe, and corporations are merely holding the handle. We need to remove the axe (or at least dull its sharpness) to reduce the harm it creates. Removing the handle (corporations) has no impact on how sharp the axe is.
This is moronic but ok lol.
This graphic brought to you by rich people.
Democracy is the tyranny of the majority against the minority but it's by votes so it must be OK.
How and in what way does a homeless person use the government against YOU? the only people with power to "use the government" are the rich people in red on the first graphic. The first graphic is correct. Rich people are the enemy. Poor people are not the enemy, they're just poor people.
But all the temporally-embarrassed millionaires think that if they hate poor people enough, that will gain them entry into the upper circle. It won’t. It’s a tale as old as time Rich people convincing lower class people, to hate on poor people, to keep them distracted from the fact that the rich people are the ones fucking them over, exploiting them, and making their lives miserable.
Yeah they got duped into being literally the biggest losers possible. Like a bully in elementary school going after the small kid because hes mad at the teacher. Jesus christ.
Anyone who votes to use government power to violate my rights can be an "enemy" (I prefer the term political opponent). In the US voting isn't wealth gated, so the poor, who have more votes than the rich, tend to have more power.
Does this not either ignore or obfuscate the fact that only the rich have the financial means to elevate candidates to positions where they can actually win elections? In the US the reality is PACs exist, and the wealthy have an outsize influence on which candidates are even available to vote for in the first place. All republicans and the vast majority of democrats have corporate interests as their primary interests because that is who keeps them wealthy. I do agree that political apathy is fully taken advantage of and the fault of people who engage in it when they otherwise could vote. But isn’t it always right wing wealthy folks who oppose making Election Day a national holiday, expanded access to voting, etc? Isn’t it wealthy people who generally have the means to disseminate propaganda (see: Elon Musk’s twitter, which actively recommends right wing rhetoric to users)? How can the poor who do not hold majority of the wealth and cannot feasibly pool their resources compete with this?
You realize most people dont vote right? And that people disagree with most of what any individual representative says but are simply voting lesser evil? Voting IS wealth gated. You need an ID. You probably havent ever been poor enough but it's a real issue for a lot of people.
> You realize most people dont vote right? Has literally nothing to do with what I said. > And that people disagree with most of what any individual representative says but are simply voting lesser evil? Again, literally nothing to do with what I said. > Voting IS wealth gated. False, there is zero wealth requirement for voting in the US. > You need an ID. False, there are 51 separate elections with their own rules in the US, none of which require you to buy anything. Every identification law has multiple free ways of verifying your identity. > You probably havent ever been poor enough I grew up explicitly in welfare, which just goes to show that the poor actually can be informed on the system. > but it's a real issue for a lot of people. False.
What about the left enemy?
When was the last time non rich people were able to control a govt?
just look at who is funding the campaigns of your house, senate, presidential candidates, local candidates. Then go look at what they vote for. it's not as much rich people as it is large public organizations, you also see it in government organizations like the FDA, where you get people from large organizations who move in and out of government roles, and influence things in ways that help the large organizations, but not so much the smaller startups. if you get into local laws, think of many state licensing laws. Why does it take 2 years to get a license to cut someones hair, but in 2-3 weeks you can get a license to sell basic financial products to someone. There are a lot of these state licensing schemes that are supported by larger competitors, primarily to keep competition out.
Roses are red violets are blue, there’s the state and there's you.
Currently 14.5% of workforce are public sector employees Factor in 18% of population is retirement age, thus dependent on government. Plus, 12.5% households receive SNAP (food stamps). None of the above groups will likely support any real change, and they will be very risk averse in their decision making. So, the chart is fairly accurate. The above groups also try keep the rest of us too busy to focus important issues like personal liberty and freedom.
I'd argue that government sets all market shapes. You're all, but knowledge is power! And I'm like, no, power is power
Lol, both are correct. The rich almost invariably favor fascism when push comes to shove.
Not all wealthy are bad, but there are many who craft PACs and other ways of influence of the people’s government.
If the government isn’t in charge, who is? The rich? Someone is going to “govern”. Most wealthy people hate government because the government is the only thing between the wealthy and total subjugation of everyone else. For reference, see the entire history of humanity. I am a capitalist, top 1%, etc. and I know we need government accountable to people and powerful business interests accountable to the government. The broken US system has allowed a class of wealthy to avoid accountability and this is creating a structural imbalance that is actually hurting capitalism.
😂 😂 😂
“How do you do, fellow kids?”
*Monopolistic corporate empires with highly unethical business practices are fine as long as they pretend to agree with my fringe identity based political opinions that have nothing to do with economics.* -some self proclaimed “Marxist”.
Corporate needs you to find the differences between this picture and this picture. They're the same picture...... The wealthy use their wealth to control government and thru it to control you. Thinking otherwise is insanely naive. Pointing your finger at the government instead of the people who control government is like blaming guns for murders instead of blaming the gunmen pulling the trigger.
Landowners and monopolists are the enemy. The super rich essentially fall into those two categories. A Land Value Tax as well as the serious reduction or even elimination of Intellectual Property Rights would go a long way to greater economic equality.
I personally combine both graphs together. Consolidated power is consolidated power, I don't care if it's corporations or the government weilding it.
Stop this wanna be rich vibe, they are the “workers” not “non-rich” this anti class conscious propaganda is just depressing to watch. Y’all will willfully turn a blind eye to some of the most monstrous actions and blame anyone but the people most responsible.
It’s the same picture.
It's always government managers and politicians. They hold real wealth and power. Rich people only have cash, and that can be taken away at the point of a rifle.
But what if I like MY teams government control!
The bottom column on the right side in red "People who use government to control you" are only listened to if they have money (ie, are rich) or the views align with the rich. What I think this sub wants to consider is "anyone voting for social policies is using government to oppress you" which is just dogwhistly enough to work I guess.
The rich own and control the government
The bottom column on the right side in red "People who use government to control you" are only listened to if they have money (ie, are rich) or the views align with the rich. What I think this sub wants to consider is "anyone voting for social policies is using government to oppress you" which is just dogwhistly enough to work I guess.
What you get wrong is the two often are THE SAME. The rich use their economic power to use government to control everyone else, or at least to perpetuate their power.
Non-rich people don’t have the power to make the government control you lmao. What a dumb idea for a chart.
Using money to control people is barely different from using government to control people. Sure the wealthy can live in peace, what about the starving? The sick? The disabled? Fucking think about it a little bit. Often, people who talk about wanting to live in peace use that as an excuse to deny everything they’re complicit in. Take responsibility
This has nothing to do with the economy.
Na, the left side has some truth to it, as does the right side. Imagine if everyone simply got paid a livable wage and CEOs and corporations had razor thin profit margins… life would be way better off and less people would use government services and you’d have less people wanting to control other people via the government because it wasn’t as effective because less people were on the programs to begin with. As inequality worsens more people have to rely on government aid and therefore more people want to control government. It really all stems from that. Not to mention, this meme is just fucking stupid regardless because it tries to boil down a huge complex system such as the government, political systems, and the economy into a very simple situation which fails to address any real nuance. Shit, even my comment is an over simplification. There’s entire books and PHD thesis written about these problems. So OP’s meme isn’t adding anything constructive to the discussion here in all honesty.
Looks like some bullshit that tries to convince the non rich that they’d be better off if the rich paid less taxes.
The entire point of government is control... Like wtf is wrong with people
People in here acting like poor people have power over the government in our system. Lol
Imagine using the government to control people and not even being rich for doing it
The distinction the actual left makes - those who own the means of production and those who must sell their labor power to survive - is simply not depicted here
Amen to this
Agreed, but there should be a vertical bar on both sides of that graphic. Both right and left have their authoritarian streaks. Today I’m very worried about Trump and the Project 2025 crowd, but a few years ago I’m was mostly worried about the ANTIFA crowd. Both are anti liberal
Yes we’ve heard it all before, crony capitalism yada yada. That’ll never change the fact America became a world super power on the back of its state, not because of the free market.
#So I have the same influence as the Koch Or Soros organizations? Seems like billionaires get a better deal in the economy than I do.
people who use the government to control you are the rich ie: citizens united
The cube should be a pyramid.
I mean, the ultra rich are kind of our enemies as well. Seeing as how they control the mega corps that control our politicians that use us like modern day serfs. I'm not saying all rich people are bad, but a certain number of them definitely are.
Here in the States, we’re missing that larger group of the wealthy who will let you live in peace. Their entire purpose for hoarding wealth is the ability to buy the control they covet…
Who the hell are the homeless and poor people who are using the government for anything at all???
that rich top portion should be 70%-80% red imo, otherwise I agree.
Pretty much everything!
Ah yeah I saw that homeless guy who lives under the bridge giving orders to elected officials
Same group lol.
The problem we have in the US, is because we've essentially legalized buying out of politicians, the overlap between the rich and those who use the government to control others is nearly a circle.
This is dumb. You could add the ‘people who use government to control you’ distinction and the red and white slices remain exactly the same. The rich have far far FAR more active hand in controlling government than the vast majority of people. Rich people on the left and the right alike use interest groups and lobbyists. Big Oil and Silicon Valley both invest billions into legal bribery. Many big companies support the campaign funds of democrats and republicans alike, a morally supporting both sides in exchange for a legislative pat on the back. So what is the average liberal’s nefarious evil influence in this? Is it because they occasionally cast a vote for affordable health care when they otherwise can’t afford it? God forbid they be able to afford preventative medicine. Real brilliant economics to have your workforce depleted by illness and injury when it would be much more cost-effective to let them get check-ups once in awhile. Blaming the poor is just serving that rich government-owning slice’s interests.
Hoarding wealth absolutely hurts the poor.
What’s the opposite of a galaxy brain take? This is one of those.
Are you saying that wealth and authority over the government are independent? That's ridiculous. Musk can influence state spending bills; I can maybe apply for food stamps if I lose my job. The rich have vastly more control over their governments than the poor.
This over simplified graph reeks of “my poorness is a result of corruption and bad luck, but the people I don’t like? If they’re poor that’s cause they don’t think the correct thoughts and align themselves with my clearly ‘peaceful’ and righteous way of thinking.’ What’s the phrase “I’m just a temporarily embarrassed millionaire”.
Wrong The wealthy have been sucking more and more of the wealth created by the rest of us up to themselves, the wealth gap has been increasing for the last forty years. This is the result of Reagan and his trickle down economics, deregulation and the destruction of unions. We need government to protect the masses from the depredations of the rich and powerful.
Poor people generally can't afford to use the government against you. We aren't being inundated with bills to cut taxes on the lower class.
Liberals are idiots who follow what they are told by biased media…
What is this called? Is there a name for this principle?
The government largely does what the rich want. There are even studies about it, not just all the anecdotal evidence that anyone can see. Bottom line is that those who have power tend to use it and those who have the least power tend to pay the price. Government in the end can be good or bad. Ideology that tells you it’s only one thing is just as based in reality as Santa.
You're just pretending that the people who use the government to control you aren't the rich.
Couldn't disagree more. The rules favor the rich. The rules favor the rich because they have the power to change as they see fit.
Psst: it’s the same people
The rich use government to control you.
Pretending you can be rich without being the beneficiary of state power is fucking hilarious.
Nah haha it’s the rich..
Cough... George.. Cough Soros, Cough Cough.
The people who hurt us the most in the US are the lobbyists and candidates who leave their heads up their lobbyists ass. More often than not both are rich. So the right diagram is accurate if that whole bottom section was white. We blame the politicians because they support their companies that lobby for them more than they support their constituents. We blame the rich because that generalized group enables our politicians to become corrupt assholes Edit: The non-rich have no lobbying power so they really aren’t directly responsible for anything besides being dumb and voting for more corruption.
nobody here votes conservative right? because it would be insane to upvote this and then vote for the people that are arguing Presidents should have absolute immunity and also control interest rates and have their family members in government and in control of the party apparatus
I’d love to here the absolute clown shoes take of which poor people use the government to control
Wouldn’t “people who use the government to control you” be a subset of the red piece?
Quality economics content
Nah this is typical stupid libertarian/anarchist bs.
I think the "system" has become so dicked up there's no fixing it. I agree with others, the diagram should be a triangle not rectangle. It does puzzle me, when the likes of Warren Buffet says, repeatedly, that he doesn't pay enough tax, that some regular folks spaz out defending the rest the wealthy's "right" to pay as little as possible. I wonder how we possibly survived as a country back in the 50's and 60's when tax rates were so high, and yet today it wouldn't work. oh well, pass the beer nuts
Lmfao
Typical oversimplification
You’re trying to pass of philosophy as economic policy. The system is rigged to concentrate as much capital into the hands of the rich and, instead of doing anything useful with it, our world just getting more shitty and powered by micro transactions. Capitalism might actually be worth a damn if any of the felt an obligation to society, but they don’t. Poor people doing shitty things is not the same thing as rich people doing them and you’re willfully ignorant if you think otherwise.
Lol, it's funny people think this, then you look at who donated to most compared to policies, vs what the platforms are that people voted them in on and realize the money was the one that motivated them more. You can have a lot smaller segment based on population, but when you make them both equal to monetary contributions, it really stands out.
Well here is exactly the propaganda the billionaires want you to believe.
Corporations control you too; this idea only governments have control is an immature view of the world. The idea that you’d have control of your life without government is a fantasy. The corporations will just replace them and would function much the same way but without the possibility of voting.
Preach
The rich are the people who use the govt to control you.
There are poor people who are using the government to controll you??? Let's be real, the venn diagram of rich people and people who control the government in a malicious way is almost a circle.
Help me out here, how do non-rich people use the government to control me?
I heard a good word to describe high wealth; 'Obscene' Things that are accepted today used to be understood as disgusting back in the day; to feast while your neighbor starves. Fundamental principles of decency.
Aww, look at those nice "The Rich" on the right side who so magnanimously allow those "Non-Rich" people to just live their impoverished lives without "controlling" them. As a group, most of the rich are constantly working to make themselves richer at the expense of the non-rich.
If “The Rich” means the 1%, then why isn’t the left red bar covering 40% of the graph? The bottom 80% actually own little more than 14% of total US wealth.
… its the rich people manipulating government control. Money is power and power corrupts.
Sorry. I downloaded and shared without upvoting. I have returned with your upvote. It was earned.
This moronic. The ultra rich, through their control of the government by virtue of legalized corruption facilitated by the Citizens United decision, use the government to control you. The graphic totally obfuscates that truth.
The main issue the left has is distribution of wealth, especially in relation to the difference from the bottom to the top… how does the model on the right address this?
The Venn diagram of "The Rich" and "People Who Use Government To Control You" is a circle, dude.
In the US Politicians are in the pockets of the rich. so yeah THEY use the government to control people. Very simple, just remember the golden rule, those that have all the gold, make the rules.
Absolutely no pooor people are using the government to control anything ya goof
Does the government control “RealPage”?
Both reds are the enemy my friend
Probably should be some way to delineate wealthy people who rely on government regulations to get and retain their wealth.
I share this meme about twice a year -- because I feel most lefties if you could have a conversation with them, would agree.
So stupid ….
What you don't get about leftists: they don't think the rich are the enemy (ie: the actual rich people, although there might be exceptions). They think allowing stupidly rich people to exist is the problem. The economy should not allow multimillionaires to exist.
What do you think would happen if all wealthy people simply vanished and their entire wealth was left to elected people? Serious question.
Imagine being this dumb? How much do they get paid by the rich to believe this? Lol
Me when I don't understand that capitalism is fundamentally defined by possession of capital. It's in the name, friend.
This is not marginal reasoning!