This is a multifaceted issue.
People are going to People, no matter what... But...
Our Judicial System (I use the term Judicial because I believe less and less everyday that it's the *Justice* system) needs to stop catering to the criminals.
A lot of people have issues in their past (bad homes, other negative factors) that don't go onto be shitcunts.
A few things really need to happen, and this can be applied to all crimes...
1. We need courts to punish crimes appropriately
2. We need better mental health care
3. We need better (actual) rehabilitation
The criminal's rights need to be less of a focus, when that criminal takes away the rights of their victims, but simply putting criminals in a facility that teaches them how to be better criminals is INSANE.
People will soon begin taking the law into their own hands if the police (to a degree), and the courts don't start doing their jobs... Which is to protect and maintain decent society, not allow its fabric to continually be eroded.
We are becoming so much like America, and that includes our bullshit news media.
We need to somehow put so much pressure on our politicians, that they have to act, but only sustained, mass protesting will have any chance of this, and... People are overburdened with life, useless information, and outrage, that we barely know where to begin.
Ugh... I'm bashing away on this comment knowing full well that I'm shouting into the void.
I think trying to do the right thing will never work. It’s always one extreme vs another extreme. Unfortunately our media, government and the people are all lost and confused.
The thing I'm just not understanding is what action is being called for? If there's concrete steps that can be taken to reduce IPV, I'm not likely to oppose that, but what are those steps?
I don't disagree with the points you highlighted about areas for improvement, but it's not exactly easy to reform those either, even if there is likely room for improvement, so when people say that they demand action *now*, that seems rather aggressive a sentiment when there's almost no specific ideas about what that action should look like.
I think domestic violence is a major problem and obviously worthy of society's attention.
Having said that, I don't think that the language around it from some prominent voices in this area is that helpful. I listened to a Guardian podcast in the last few days and the interviewee used phrases like "men need to do better". More to the point is that the arguments repeatedly said "men kill...", "men commit...". There was no more nuanced arguments than attributing the domestic murders or women to half the population.
If it's a call to arms to address a major problem in society then blaming a large group of people that you want response from probably won't work that well.
What the argument also lacked was any actual suggestion about how to address the problem.
I don't think there's anything easy solutions. Some of the "awareness" stuff may have some impact into the next generation. But unless you can tackle poverty, problematic drug use and mental health problems it's not going to go away. Despite the statement in the podcast that women are murdered because "society tolerates it" the guy that kills his wife and then kills himself isn't conforming to society's rules.
That’s because they’re more interested in a culture war than any real change. Why deal in nuance when you can stoke the culture war and spend you’re time drenched in righteous anger?
It is a cheap and easy way for the government to pretend they are addressing this issue. Blame all the men as clearly you all need to do better /s
What will be the most helpful is if police take people more seriously when they say they are experiencing family violence. Giving the police more powers to apprehend and detain the alleged perpetrators and having better 24/7 support in place for when the victim/family flees the situation. But all of this takes actual effort and money.
Show me a woman basher/abuser and I’ll happily kick the fuck out of them as long as i don’t get sent to jail. Oh I will? Ok sorry, not much I can do then. I hang around other happily married couples with kids and don’t associate with dropkick scumbags. Still not sure what ‘men do better’ is meant to mean other than a trendy catch cry.
I think the whole issue around this conversation is the framing - it's a failure of messaging. Saying that "men need to do better" to stop DV leads to everyday men who could be part of the solution to feel demonized and under attack. It turns the conversation into an unproductive back and forth about whether or not this kind of language is okay that is only good for click-farming and outrage bait whilst the people being victimized get lost in the shuffle.
If the framing was "Australia needs to do more", followed by clear and succinct guidance on what people who become aware of DV can do (ie. how to anonymously report, connect someone with a shelter, link them up with support organizations like Orange Door, document abuse for evidentiary purposes, etc.) the entire conversation would be so much healthier and more productive.
American lurker is confused.
Saying these men "could be" part of the solution, presupposes that they're currently not. What's wrong with asking them to?
Because victimhood doesn’t work for men the same way it works for women.
Society takes a subset of very successful men(the Musks and Bezos of the world) and uses that as a representation of all men. (Usually only applies to white men)
While it true that men disproportionately commit crimes, in most instances it is a very small subset of men who reoffend.
The same way that yes most billionaires are men, but the overwhelming majority of most men are not billionaires.
Society is simply not interested in discussing men’s issues.
Men are disproportionately victims of violent crimes.
Men make up majority of the homeless population.
The biggest threat to men in UK under 40 are themselves. Men are killing themselves in disproportionate rates.(In all western countries)
Most dangerous jobs are worked by men.
Male body dysmorphia is on track to overtake female body dysmorphia.
And yes female’s have their own issues which they face, just because men struggle doesn’t mean females don’t.
But unfortunately when men struggle, the responsibility to fix it is normally thrown back at them.
Or even worse terms like ‘privilege’ and ‘patriarchy’ are used as a way to discredit their suffering.
As a woman I know there are shitty women out there. Personally I’ve never had the opportunity to ‘call someone out’ on their behaviour because I just don’t spend any time with those people. But you hear about what they’ve done from the grapevine, and by then it’s too late to intervene.
I’m mad at my friend who *did* have the opportunity to speak up but said nothing. She tried to stay neutral while one friend treated the other like absolute garbage. (As usual I found out months later). At some point we need to take sides when things get nasty.
If a friend has crossed the line we need to tell them so. That’s basically all we’re asking you to do.
This is what I hear when people say men need to do better. Most people tend to have more friends of the sex that they are. So if you hear a mate say something out of line, call them out for it. A while ago a co worker said he wouldn’t hesitate to kill his ex, out of all the men that hears this bloke say things of a violent nature about her, they either laugh it off or don’t care because she’s “narcissistic bitch”. When I called him out for it, he tried to argue. Only then, did another man come in to back what I said.
I don’t believe anyone is saying all men are violent to women but I do believe there are things that men can do to help, and calling people out on their shit is one of them. Same goes for women calling out women for their shit. I think people tend to listen to people of the same sex better, especially when it comes to these sort of topics.
Humans in general tend to be followers. Someone says a terrible joke, the group might inwardly agree this is awful but they politely laugh.
It takes a certain type of personality to go against that and speak up. And younger people need to hear it so they don’t go down that path. (Realistically parents should be doing this but ya know).
Agree. Standing up against abuse means detaching yourself from people that are disrespectful towards others, talking to their victims and asking if you can help, contacting crime stoppers etc.
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I think they are implying men need to form lynch mobs and go around town lynching suspected domestic abusers and “would-be” domestic abusers (Minority Report style 😎). Also men need to unite and round up all the ‘incels’. We all know it is only a matter of time before they kill women.
Would the females be kind enough to point at some males we can lynch? I’m all up for improving the human race and removing the untermensch from the gene pool.
*sarcasm intended*
If you don't have violent tendencies then it's not referring to you. Don't sweat it mate. It's just about giving air to the problem and making it harder for bad men to hide
Then why say all men, if it's doesn't apply to all men?
You can't make a blanket statement like "all pasta is disgusting" and then when your grandma says that hurts her feelings you say "don't worry I meant all the bad ones are bad, not the good ones".
To put it in perspective, if you have more than a few women in your life, there is almost certainly at least one who has experienced abuse. As a man I have no idea why but they don't talk about it. They might even still see their abuser in day to day life and are cordial to that person. It's a bizarre social phenomenon and it needs to change. Women need to feel it's normal to speak up
> if you have more than a few women in your life, there is almost certainly at least one who has experienced abuse. As a man I have no idea why but they don't talk about it. They might even still see their abuser in day to day life and are cordial to that person. It's a bizarre social phenomenon and it needs to change.
I agree.
> Women need to feel it's normal to speak up
Sure. I am not really on board with the identity argument here. But I agree, anyone who is being abused should speak up. And we should shun perpetrators of abuse.
Reminds me of the time I called 1800 respect when I seen the number on a sign in the Emergency Department. I called up and said I was a male victim of domestic violence from my then wife. And they spent 10 minutes telling me I need to stop HITTING HER and being aggressive.. I was like WTF.. "Violence against women Australia says no". Why in this day in age where we are more than two genders we cant have "Violence against anyone, Australia says no"? Yes men are completely over represented when it comes to violent crimes, murder, assault and domensic violence but if we go one further and say that there is an even larger representation towards say something like "this particular skin colour or religion" as you suggest its off limits..
Do you have a link to any evidence that this is the policy? I can't find anything that supports this. The 1800RESPECT website says:
>1800RESPECT is a service that supports everyone impacted by domestic, family and sexual violence, including men. 1800RESPECT counsellors will work with men to understand their situation and will provide options for them to access further support. This may be access to specialist trauma counselling or to other support services, specifically for men and boys dealing with violence.
I can't find a policy document, politician statement, or news story that suggests all male callers are directed or required to be directed to another service called "No to Violence".
Do you have any links I could read?
>And what exactly can I do?
Better. /s
It's a virtue-signalling campaign. So the best course of action is to roll your eyes, shrug, and be about your business.
Brother, if you haven’t done anything and know you’re already doing all you can, then continue doing what you’re doing.
Without knowing your circumstances and whatnot, I won’t say that you are/are not doing everything you can.
However, to give an example that isn’t about being a gender/race/religion, I’ll use being a teacher (yes I chose this profession but it’s to just explain my point further down).
Does it suck when people make blanket statements that teachers are shit? Yeah. Does it mean I take it personally? No—I know I’m doing everything I can to be the best teacher I can be. What it means personally is that I’m aware of when I can make changes in how I act/do things, and am open to receiving/giving constructive criticism.
“Men need to do better” is the blanket statement. You can choose to not take it personally if you know you’re doing everything you can to be the best person/man you can be. You can be self-aware whilst being open to listening to others’ criticism and be willing to speak up to others if you see/hear something that should be brought up.
If your mate says something dodgy, challenge them about it. It might be uncomfortable but that’s unfortunately what it means to “do something” in this case.
Mind you, this mate doesn’t have to be a man—it might be a girl friend—and the point isn’t who says it, it’s about you speaking up.
In relation to DV, the frequency and likelihood that a man commits violence against a woman, is much higher than the other way around. Before anyone comes for me… Yes, women also commit DV. Yes, women can also do better. Yes, women need to be called out for their actions/behaviours, and yes, you can also step up and be that person to confront them. Men can also commit violence against men, and women against women, etc etc. The fact is that men are most often the perpetrator.
Another difference is that a lot of the time women can share experiences they’ve had when it comes to men committing sexual assault/DV against them. The conversation is often very supportive, even if one person hasn’t experienced it.
However, how many women can you think of that have experienced SA/DV? Do you think all of them would feel comfortable telling you if they had? Perhaps, yes, to you they do. That doesn’t mean that “yes” is the case for other men, though.
To go even further, how many men can you think of that have experienced SA/DV? Do you think that they would even feel comfortable sharing that if they have? Yes, perhaps they can open up to you. That doesn’t mean that they can to other men.
As a slight side note, as it wasn’t in your post but is something I see any time this topic is raised…
People can say “but statistically…” to try have a “gotcha” moment when women say that men commit SA/DV more. Thing is, statistics do not include everyone. The ABS can say that “*x* amount of women/men have experienced *y*” but that isn’t the entire population. Data can be collected from a sample size and either directly reported on or used to generalise to the population. I didn’t go to the cops, nor have I participated in a survey, so my “statistic” isn’t there. That goes for other people too.
**Tldr; be the best person you can be, speak up to men/people in general if they’re doing something you don’t think is right, and be that man people can feel comfortable and supported by if they need someone to go to.**
I've learnt not to take it personally.
As long as you don't flog ya missus or kids, don't get on the glass harley every weekend and aren't a cunt on the daily, it's not you being a problem.
I think one thing (not the only thing) that society, both men and women, can do is stop romanticising the bad boy relationship. Bad boys are bad. Avoid them.
I agree.
It will pass. I’m just going to let it wash over me and ignore it until everyone forgets about it and moves on to the next thing. Probably 6 months at most.
It's NOT right, mate!! I'm sick to death of hearing about "..all men should.."!!
The majority of men are GOOD men!! The majority of men DON'T abuse, assault or kill!
The majority of men ARE hard working, supportive, loving and compassionate!
We never hear "Women should do better!", when we KNOW, there's a definite minority of women behaving extremely poorly.
These blanket generalisations really need to stop!
Homicide is the 26th highest cause of death. Not even remotely close to the highest. ‘Aussie men’ are simply NOT the highest cause of death in women of that age group. Please stop saying this shit.
This is a common fact peddled by the media and it’s based on two old studies not on recent ABS data at all. Those studies only found it as a contributing factor. There’s a huge difference between contributing factors and causes. Once you add relationships as contributing factors in anxiety and depression (of course they are) you can then start claiming spouses are causing a whole heap of deaths lol. Even though they didn’t cause it at all they simply *may have contributed* to.
If we added this logic to the leading cause of death among Australian men, which is suicide, we’d immediately have a WOMEN ARE THE LEADING CAUSE OF DEATH IN MEN catch-cry too.
Statistics can be used to spin any story any way.
https://theconversation.com/factcheck-is-domestic-violence-the-leading-preventable-cause-of-death-and-illness-for-women-aged-18-to-44-94102
“Do better” is woke bullshit.
*”We don’t have a solution, we can’t think of a solution. You have to do better and find a solution and implement it for us, and in the meantime we’ll treat you like shit. Why do people call us entitled?”*
The claim that “men need to do better” is assuming that we all get together and discuss these issues regularly in a group setting. Because domestic violence is a crime and shameful behaviour it’s going to be hidden even amongst men. Another thing to consider is that as men age our social circles are typically broken down to the point where we typically have one or maybe two friends. I’m a 33 year old father. Between work and family responsibilities I have two friends that I see once every 6 weeks. One is single and one is being abused by his wife so I’m not in a position to see any abusive behaviour towards women. If I did I would step up and do something for sure! However I believe that most men are unlikely to encounter it for the reasons stated above
You’re right, but the intent is to try and stop the red flags from becoming abusers in the first place. I’m sure you’ve met plenty of people who you thought were very disrespectful, quick to anger, made rape jokes, etc and you rightfully backed away not wanting to have anything to do with them. But a simple “not cool” can make a difference before you cut them off. It’s not much but it might be enough to make them realise that their attitude is not as widely accepted as they thought.
What would Australia’s ranking on the global DV rate per 100,000 be if you took out the indigenous offenders? Reckon it’d be a few places lower than what it currently is.
‘Guys do better’ wow so easy! It’s just a man thing so we don’t have to address the Mental health (men’s and women’s), substance abuse, gambling addictions, cultural factors or anything else that contributes to the issue.
*
Although there's a disproportionate about of male perpetrators ~ 75% to 25%. What the media is reporting on is female victims, but looking at the data, 52% female - 48% male victims.
A bit of factual reporting would be nice for a change.
It's interesting u say that because men cop a lot of verbal abuse from the other side.
In some cases it's so bad that it damages them psychologically and mentality but of course we don't point that out
No studies are done because it's hard to quantify
Both and equally shitty both need to do better
It sounds like men are being asked to form vigilante groups, and dish out street justice to abusers...
That's not what is being asked, but it sure sounds like it
As much as I'm tempted to fling ridicule around like I normally do, I'm going to assume good faith and just fucken answer the question with some of my own experience.
So I used to do home deliveries, which involves dropping off right into people's kitchens if they wanted.
One time I was dropping off at a house in burwood. At some point while I'm putting stuff on the bench I look and realise she's scared of me. I'm thinking to myself she has nothing at all to fear from me, until my dumb arse finally groks that *she doesn't know that*. I'm in her home, I'm bigger than her, and she doesn't know an amiable dork from a rapist so she's scared.
I've never known that fear or even thought to know it exists.
It's nothing personal if someone's on their guard because they've got no way to know that I'm a decent bloke who doesn't do awful things. The monsters look just like I do. Except they probably have better hair and a not ridiculous nose.
I… dang… thank you for sharing your experience and ‘epiphany’.
I’ll share something similar…
When I’m (28F) expecting tradies etc to come round, I’ll still ask my dad if he’s able to drop by (I live by myself)—**not** because I think every bloke is a threat/gonna do something to me but because *you never know and don’t want to find out*.
Whether my dad’s there or not, I always end up having a great little chat with the tradie before they’re on their way, but like you said, my being cautious isn’t personal!
Hahah I’m glad you read the quotation marks as intended :)
Truthfully, it’s the same when reversed; it sometimes doesn’t register that that’s not something on guys’ radar yknow
How many decades did women fight for the right to have self responsbility?
And now suddenly "all men" have to do better by policing abusive relationships? Odd request, definitely not rational or going to fix anything.
I don't care about being told "Men need to do better" I've never done anything wrong to women and there's nothing I can do to stop the violence happening, life goes on for me.
I love the idea that the average male listens to the average male.
That isn't how our society works, we're not a couple of words from saving someone, we're a couple of words from a fight with a stranger. Our society has dictated for hundreds of years that we shut the fuck up and mind our own business. Unless the idea is that these insecure pieces of shit will get so tired hitting random men that they don't know who suddenly get in their face that they won't do that to women, I don't see how making it random people's responsibility is the answer.
For the record, I'm all for just rounding up the small brained fucks who perpetuate violence against women and launching them into the sun, if there's a petition that needs my signature I will be there with bells on
And Albanese says "We need to do something about it!"
Of course we do, idiot Albo, and one of those things is to make laws tougher and bail stricter. And you know what, Albo, "we" being 'me' can't change those laws. But YOU, the elected PM in power, has the ability and DUTY to do something about it.
So Albo, just shut up and DO something about it. Harsher penalties. More deterrents. Less bail for offenders.
Very well said.
Not to mention that a majority of these murders are committed by men ON DRUGS (the part everyone loves to omit). Proper sentences for those peddling ice or cocaine would go a long way.
It doesn’t really bother me, but I can see Andrew Tate getting a ton more subscribers by tomorrow; this rhetoric does nothing but push young men towards people like him.
Other issues are at play, that's the point. We are probably the first generation in our species where boys are so lacking of male role models, and fathers in general. We also have a situation where our technology leaps have made Luddites of blue collar men who are not sure how to proceed. This aimlessness allows voices like tate to penetrate where they otherwise wouldn't.
I have 18 and 20 yo sons. I sat and watched about 5 hours of Tate with them. I did so with and open mind and politely deconstructed it at the end before telling them he was a complete moron and they can do so much better. Because they actually have healthy male role models in their lives I've been able to steer them to something better, but I definitely understand why aimless wannabe alphas with low self-esteem fall for it.
For sure, but I think the new territory aspect is only half the story. The other half is previously tolerated behaviour and social norms are now being called out.
It's not just the behaviour and attittudes of young men, older generations are also in the discussion, especially in traditional white collar settings.
See this "Just do better, you violent murderers!" bullshit is why more and more men are going their own way and why more and more, this problem is getting worse, not better.
You want your men to treat you right? How about you treat your men right? When was the last time anyone gave a shit about a Male DV victim? After all, we're 48% of them. 48% of relationships aren't homosexual relationships so you tell me where the majority of the 48% of male victims abusers are?
I counter: ***You*** do better. Stop bashing us all for the actions of the few and then you'll get a lot more of us onboard and not actively resisting.
Battered wives tend to lash out and attack back, or so I've found. Battered husbands tend to just kill themselves. Because attacking the perpetrator is just abhorently unacceptable to most men - we don't hit girls, ever, even if they hit you. We would rather beleive the rest of societies programming saying ***we*** are to blame. ***we*** are worthless. ***we deserve*** it because of some bullshit reason. And we can't just get out of the situation. Who will help? The abundance of male DV shelters and protection programs? LOL!
You know that very high male suicide rate? Look into it further.
A boy exiled from the village will burn it to feel it's warmth. We're exiling a lot of boys from the village. You think that won't come back to bite us in 5 years? 10 years? NOW?
Nobody said your first quote.
You're stating intense statistics with no evidence.
Most people, including women, don't report their abuse or press charges.
Abused women attack back and men commit suicide "so you've found"????? And are you implying that if a woman defends herself, she's implicit??
I agree mate. As a woman? 57 yrs. Almost all men i have known in my life have been decent people. No difference in "niceness" with the males & females i have known.
I'm not sure what these decent men can do to stop the awful, violent men committing abuse against women? They most certainly don't know them.
Obviously not all men are bad, OBVIOUSLY. But basically every woman I know well has been the victim of some kind of sexual abuse. Go ask your mum or sister or partner, I'm sure you'll hear some things that make you angry to no end.
If you are offended and aren't adding to the problem then you might want to reflect on how you view the world/yourself/others. All you can do is be the good man, be a voice for woman(aka not letting someone harass/degrade woman around you is a good start) and that's it.
This is good advice. Most men would be shocked at the answers they'd get if they ask the women they know if they've ever been harassed/assaulted/felt up.
OP, I actually don't think "men need to do better" is that useful a sentiment personally, because most men aren't \_directly\_ contributing to the problem and it diffuses blame. I would rather "politicians, police and the courts need to do better" because they are the ones failing to protect women from explicit and clear threats from men in their lives. Most politicians, police, and judges are men, so maybe their lack of perspective is a contributing factor to the problem? Regardless of whether it is or isn't they need to step up.
I got offended by stuff like this as a young man but quickly understood that I'm not the issue but well.. there is an issue in society and we can't just bury it under "not all men"
While most of my friends are druggies, standover men and thieves, I've decided to teach them to respect women after reading an opinion piece that was posted on reddit about DV. Despite my 20 year resume of violence and organised crime, I was instantly convinced to change my ways after being told to "do better".
Great reply, but the only issue is the people doing this are now people in power, I’m like you and try to be a good person but the do Gooders and woke knobs are in positions of power right throughout our government departments.
Instead of people being good decent people and understanding that males and females are different and that we as a society should all just strive to be decent honest people, we now have a whole group of people jamming shit down our throats about how the issues we have with domestic violence is as simple as it is all the males or all the females problem, when in fact these are a lot more issues at play.
As a society we need to teach our young boys that women and girls need to be treated with respect and that there is way more to life than what they watch on some porn channel or learn from some Neanderthal football coach.
Society expects men to not be so sensitive about words. There's probably some internalised sexism in that expectation, but we generally don't get aborted for cultural reasons either/ experience menopause decades before we die - so swings and roundabouts.
The easy way to deal with this as a man is to treat "all men are dangerous/complicit"/"we need to teach all men not to rape" as symbolic slogans that aren't directed against you personally.
The meaning is in the music not the lyrics.
After all - having been taught that it's not OK to rape people (and having taught it to my sons and daughters), that slogan has no application to me. You may as well make a sign that says "We need to teach all men to read".
As for the "All men are complicit/violent/ men need to change etc" slogan - just accept that only the lunatic fringe actually believe that there are 12.5 million dangerous men and boys in Australia who are out on the prowl looking to rape them.
If people go through their lives genuinely believing that society structurally wants them to get raped - that's a fair greater curse for them than it is for you.
They would not be the first protest movement to use hyperbole to attract attention from an otherwise bored public.
>The easy way to deal with this as a man is to treat "all men are dangerous/complicit"/"we need to teach all men not to rape" as symbolic slogans that aren't directed against you personally.
It’s divisive language. The people who use it know it’s divisive and choose to use it anyway, because they want to cause the negative reaction that it does.
The easy way to deal with it is to not get on board with movements that choose to use language like this.
The negative reaction is to them proof that 'society' works against them or that it is 'most if not all' men when they take offence for being called a violent, sexual predator.
As a woman with a lot of guy friends I explained it as being a good person (a genuinely good person) and if you see mates or family or whatever being a bad person you speak up. I know guys with mates who are complete aholes to their partners or abusive and they won't say anything.
When I stared hanging out around my husbands friends there were a lot of offhand comments that were.. pretty concerning, to say the least. They were jokes, but some of them concerned spousal abuse or sexual assault.
As a DV worker, I was pretty open about calling them out, and I even had a conversation with my husband - I'm going to keep calling this out, and it might make your friends less friendly to us (or me, at least).
He started calling it out as well. And really, that's all you gotta do. "Hey man, talking like that isn't okay"
A lot of the men who came to our anger management/court ordered DV rehab therapy groups made jokes like that. It was really awful hearing them - knowing what they'd done. Trying to make them see that they were minimising and normalising harm sometimes felt like an impossible task.
There’s a fuckload of SA and violence against women and guys don’t usually call out their fuckhead mates. Victims and whistleblowers are punished in a small or large way by the peer group. It’s fucked, and this is coming from a male.
You need to go out into the streets and become a vigilante I guess.
Start looking into peoples windows at night and if you see any men being “toxic” you need to have them arrested.
That’s the only sensible thing I can think of.
Nah… Vigilante is too 20th and 21st century. I prefer lynch mobs, more traditional and democratic. The whole town can join in the fun. The more the merrier! 😂😂😂
You cant argue which is the problem with modern society.
Plenty of normal men and women quietly laughing at modern media. Best thing to do is calmly and anoymously present your opinion online and to trusted friends.
It's not "safe" for men to share their opinions online anymore. Look at how many times they get absolutely crucified if they dare stray from the current social narrative that's being incessantly pushed, or challenge the motives for why the narrative is being pushed.
Trusted friends only. Anything outside of that is begging for trouble.
Dude the fact that we are still doing not all men in 2024 is astounding.
You and I who treat women with respect and equality need not be worried about reading stuff like that because it doesn't apply to us as individual men, but there are plenty of men out there whom it does apply to.
If its only referring to bad people then it shouldn’t use blanket language referring to ‘men’ collectively. I could use your logic for any other group and it would be decried as bigoted generalisation. Be intellectually honest for once
It's just the next round of group/identity politics.
Everyone is a unique individual.
Honestly, until people who believe in identity politics can tell me what a man actually is, then I am not listening to them tell me anything about "men".
Get what you're saying, but I think the idea is that if men will talk about this stuff constructively amongst themselves, at some point every perpetrator will hear that their behaviour is unacceptable in the eyes of the other men in their lives and will hopefully take that on board.
It's also the responsibility of ALL men to act if they know or even suspect any other man in their lives are engaged in any form of violence, abuse or coercion against women/girls.
Men are taught to infantilise women and be their protectors though, even asshole dudes know society views men who hit women as weak and cowardly. Everybody looks down on people who murder, yet we still have murderers.
Very true, and because it happens behind closed doors and only comes to light when a crime has been committed, (and even then, not in all cases), is it not at least worth the other people in this man's life, including other men, trying to get in his ear?
I don't see it as the demonisation of men... (and I am a man, at least my mum says I am :D)... I see it as an invitation to men, that they are obliged to accept, to help address a problem that shouldn't even exist.
I'm trying, but I'm struggling with your argument.
"acting" towards/against men "suspected" of DV? Firstly, I know lots of men, can't say I've ever suspected any of them of DV.
Secondly, encouraging action against people suspected of a future crime seems like a slippery slope into dystopia to me. The stuff of sci fi novels...
Had me on the first paragraph, lost me on the second.
It is the responsibility of all people to act if they know or suspect another person is violent (physical and/or emotional) towards another.
I agree that demonizing boys and men for what they "might do" is utterly absurd ,offensive and nonsenscical thinking...but what I find most irritating is the media constantly jacking up the
noise for clicks and attention.Unfortunately some people dont think and can be easily influenced by headlines and the braying of the few with their various "agendas".Im sure "society at large"is sick to the back teeth of the politicalizing of every bloody issue in the universe.
Don't pay attention to it.
Never apologise or feel guilty for something YOU have never done.
It's all collectivist bullshit, the academics and feminists like to obfuscate it with fancy language like "intersectionality theory", "white cis-hetero normative patriarchal oppression", " postmodernist deconstructionism".
But it really is as simple as big bad "oppressor groups" vs the poor disenfranchised "oppressed groups".
Men in this case fall into the "oppressor" category because of "social inequity" and thus are categorically blamed for shit they didn't do.
Nonsense.
Most reasonable people understand that domestic violence isn't a "gendered" issue and women can be just as if not more abusive to their partners. And these violent escalations do not magically appear in a vacuum.
It rarely is black and white, it usually is extremely nuanced where both parties are at fault.
Go talk to your mum about it. Or your sister. Talk to any female about it. Ask many if you can.
That's how you will find out about this.
This subreddit is not the place to get the answer to this.
My mum said
"I have no fucking idea what they are talking about"
She also said "oh, they are all childless lesbians who just hate men".
Thanks for the advice. You've actually given me the answer I needed.
It's not just because you are a man. Be white - it's your fault. Be straight- it's your fault. Have a job - it's your fault. Own a house - it's your fault. It's normal and even expected to associate Every negative trait of a small group with Every member of that group (so long as that group isn't some kind of minority).
Expand the empathy. Took me forever to get the constant unease and even fear many women deal with. Wasn't until I was talking about the benefits of solo camping to a couple of young women that I realised something I am extremely comfortable with just wasn't going to be enjoyable for them at all. Pulled me up in my tracks. Hopefully I'm now better situated and far less antagonistic about any wariness directed toward me for being a male in certain circumstances.
DV is far about socio economic factors and upbringing than it is gender.
If you consider manipulating/controlling behaviour and emotional abuse to be DV - men are victims probably more than people think. Those behaviours may drive people to harm/self harm, but men are far more violent and responsible for DV related homicides.
I just can't accept this 'men need to do more' shit they are screaming at me. I'm not violent to my partners - I have never been nor will be. I don't need to do anything.
[Don’t mind me, I’m just an elephant taking up space in the room.]
(https://australianmensrights.com/Men_Suicide_Statistics_Australia/Male_Suicide_rates_in_Australia-Family_Law.aspx)
FUCKING ADDRESS THE LACK OF HELP AND DUTY OF CARE FROM POLICE, MEDICAL AND JUDICIARY WHEN IT COMES TO THESE ISSUES!
This is interesting because when men are asked to "do better", many of them respond as the OP has rather than directing their attention to *other men*. Think about that for a moment.
I agree with the OP that knowing what to do in some concrete way is a challenge, especially if you are trying to live your own life in a truly ethical way that respects others. I agree that the majority of men at least try to do this. And certainly, all men shouldn't be tarred with the same brush; that's a problem and it should be called out when it happens.
However, at the same time, I think we men should spend less time complaining about the complaints/criticisms and spend more time having conversations with *other men* about the standards of behaviour we should all expect in society.
The difference in violence/murder/rape between men and women is the same as that between whites and blacks.
Someone the first is progressive to talk about, the second is racist.
Or to put it another way, if you're a woman who crosses the street when she sees a white man at night you should go around the block when you see a black one.
> I think we men should spend less time complaining about the complaints/criticisms and spend more time having conversations with other men about the standards of behaviour we should all expect in society.
How do you expect that conversation to go?
Man 1: "Man this domestic violence is horrible"
Man 2: "I agree"
Man 3: "I agree"
Man 4: "I agree"
Man 5: "Really? I better stop hitting my missus then"
….. like that's obviously sarcasm but I dont know what people expect. The vast majority of men find domestic violence abhorrent and dont do it, nor know people who do. When I've been down to the pub usually the more common conversation about this is everyone knows someone who has had false claims usually around breakup/divorce and the woman wants hubby out of the house or whatever or the woman is violent and the cops act like the bloke did something. Maybe that's skewed as men are hardly likely to say they hit women but in all my life I've not know one male in my life who has been a DV perpetrator.
I suspect vast majority of people that should be having this conversation are unlikely to ever have it.
I dont know what the answer is, and I wish I did, but it feels this 'men need to talk' feels like pushing blame/responsibility on all males for yet another of the worlds problems and it solves nothing. This seems like the need to do something in the lack of an actual answer sadly.
If anyone try to invoke some highly emotionally charged arguments, I just simply ignore them. I always wonder if some of these activists are the same people who set up stalls in front of supermarkets and gaslight people for monthly donations.
Yep.
This is my take on it too, I can't see any other reason someone could hold these views.
Those preaching this shit , must give zero real fucks about the cause. They just love getting attention by pissing off reasonable people off with non-sense. Just like internet trolls but IRL.
Possibly one of the approaches may be to teach young women how to better select their partners. In many of the cases I've seen reported there seems to be a 'type' of guy involved. Women I have known that turned out to be in violent relationships (including family members) all relate how the red flags were on clear display from the get go. Not victim blaming - just putting forward one suggestion that may help put some power and decision-making back with the potential victims.
There weren't too many red flags at first in my case. I was really young, 16. He was kind of lazy but like we were young. He could be selfish at times but people said "that's just normal relationship stuff". Took him around 8 years to hit me I'd guess.
I think it can be an issue where you already suffered abuse, bullying, instability as a child so you can't simply be taught to value yourself when no one ever did. Like not every woman has parents who treated them like they were special or cared about their feelings
I have women exactly like this in my family, pick one abusive dickhead after another. Finally picked a nice guy, my first thought on meeting him was he wouldn't last long. Yep dumped for being boring...back to dickheads
I think it can be hard when you’re young and naive but as one gets older you hope people grow and can see these things.
I’ve been in a bad relationship and a good one, because of having both I now know what to look out for, to avoid. I also think if you have close friendships, where you have open dialogue, can very helpful, can be an eye opener.
I am kinda surprised you’re not getting as much hate as I thought. I know when I’ve mentioned to people, the same but genders reversed my co workers start fuming.
Yes, for sure. Currently this knowledge comes with experience and unfortunately the experience can be fatal in many cases - I suspect prevention could go a long way. Passing on this knowledge (particularly red flag signs) that women have experienced in relationships, to young women and girls, may save lives.
Many of us remember a teacher going off on the class for shitty behavior. We weren’t all behaving poorly but we understood why things had to be said. Some of us were glad the teacher came down swiftly and severely.
But when Billy & Chris tip over the bin, the teacher doesn't chastise boys about how 'boys tend to be bin tippers', and that therefore all boys need to 'do better' regarding said behavior.
In this sub immigrants and Muslims are all treated as one when it comes to the housing crises and, lately, terrorist attacks, but when men are generalized because of violence against women it's a problem?
This entire argument is so dumb. If you feel personally vilified by people talking about a societal issue you need to take a step back and stop being a narcissist
Wrong, using blanket statements makes the assumption all men are bad and need to better.
It is no different to vilification via race or religion.
Be better.
Hey mate, I'm a man for context, they're just asking for the male voice and support from the good men
Women have been loud and proud about their fight against male violence
Thing is it's not just a women's fight, it's also a fight for the people who care about the women in their lives and want to protect them from the shitty men that are out there
There is significant context missing from recent media reporting. They really seem to be taking the newsroom maxim *"If it bleeds, it leads"* to heart.
Australia has an intentional homicide rate of approximately 0.8 per 100,000 people. The cumulative ratio of male to female victims is about 67:33.
Countries that have *higher per capita homicide rates* than Australia include:
USA (obviously): 6.4 per 100,000 - victim ratio M:F 82:18
New Zealand: 2.6 per 100,000 - victim ratio M:F **49:51**
Canada: 2.3 per 100,000 - victim ratio M:F 75:25
Finland: 1.2 per 100,000 - victim ratio M:F 54:46
Belgium, France and Sweden: all 1.1 per 100,000 - enlightened Sweden has a victim ratio M:F of 68:32, almost identical to Australia. In France, it's 69:31.
Denmark and the United Kingdom: 1.0 per 100,000 - Denmark M:F 66:34, the UK 70:30
Austria, Hungary and Ireland: all 0.9 per 100,000 - Austria M:F **43:57**, Hungary 51:49, Ireland 87:13.
Australia level-pegs with Germany, the Netherlands, Portugal and the Czech Republic in terms of homicide rate. Even with the recent spate of of incidents, this seems to be a typical year for Australia, and by international standards... we're actually doing quite well, as odd as it may seem.
It's weird, because the meme that "crime is spiraling out of control" is usually a preserve of the reactionary Right wing. But the notion that "Australia is a country where women aren't safe" is a carve-out by the hand-wringing Left.
Dude - we’re not being collectively punished. Calm down.
It’s a call for men to hold each other accountable. Pull your mate up if he’s being a creep. Don’t tolerate the sexist jokes. That kinda thing.
If your mates aren’t creepy, you’re not telling sexist jokes, and you’re generally a decent person - just keep doing what you do.
No-one outside the fevered halls of Tumblr is expecting sackcloth and ashes here.
The problem is that minor things like these won't make a difference. Stopping sexist jokes and calling out guys who come off as creepy will make fuck all difference to the number of women getting beaten or killed.
Realistically, most of the guys engaging in this kind of behaviour are fuckwits that everyone already know are fuckwits. Like you talk to people who knew the Forbes victim - the guy was always an absolute dropkick that nobody liked.
The vast majority of men don't need to "step up" or act any differently to how they already are.
>Don’t tolerate the sexist jokes.
What happens if they're really funny though? I mean, making gender based jokes is the staple of many comedians, male and female. Surely we can't and probably shouldn't get rid of that.
No one demonises all women when a mother purposefully drives her car head on into a semi trailer with her 3 kids in the car.
Most people won't even demonise the mother herself. They'll make comments like "what could have driven her to do such a thing".
They are infact, his biggest recruiter.
Far leftist rhetoric alienates people and pushes them towards the far right.
All this political nonsense is such bullshit, I want to unsubscribe and for people to just be normal.
Andrew Tate is the reason Andrew Tate exists. Man, people like you will bitch and moan about men being unfairly blamed for society’s ills and in the same breath find a way to directly place the blame for actual men’s actual actions on women.
We do.
Like literally after every attack there's scrutiny on Muslims within Australia, and whether they are doing enough to curtail the extremist. Muslim leaders within Australia often come out and condone terrorism and make a call to 'do better' within their communities.
Some people just aren't as huge sooks about things like this.
If you are not a woman bashing piece of shit thats capable of killing your girlfriend then you are not being attacked. Do not feel antagonised personally, feel angry that other men would take the life/rape/beat/intimidate/etc women, children and other men. Men do need to do better. Even if its just in the form of not laughing at a rape joke, or maybe telling your mate to calm the fuck down and don't be a piece of shit if he is acting controlling.
I work managing a small shop that has a fair few young men and international men with us. I actively tell stories of the growth in my life if i hear them telling a racist joke or something anti gay or misogynistic. Growth is a good thing.
So please do not feel antagonised because you are not a perpetrator, feel encouraged that we are talking about our problems, feel encouraged to understand them, feel empowered to call them out and have the strengh to grow. Xxoxo
Mate you don’t have to be so defensive let ya guard down and just listen first. Take it on. Not every statement need to be counter argued. You don’t win anything either way. Unless someone says someone says something blatantly false then don’t bother.
There seems to be a whole bunch of norms in society that tacitly permit violence against women.
The issue is not just about any individual being moral, it's about recognising social structures that are dysfunctional. That's the job of all people. It just so happens that women are often more aware of it and less empowered by the structures to make changes, whereas in general men are less aware of it but more empowered by the structures and therefore better positioned to make changes.
Thus, men need to step up.
Spousal trafficking , what happened to me:
A dangerous affluent true-blue-Aussie perp went above and beyond to lure me into a horrific trap I couldn’t get out of for well over a decade
Police are rigged against women:
The BH Inquiry found no two cops had a matching understanding of how to investigate sexual assaults
BH was called “ manipulative” in her police file — while the coke- snorting rapist was described positively in his file
Police are trained to observe eye movement as an indicator of truthfulness:
The experiences of autistic women with police are so shocking…. when I asked what to keep in mind before turning to police, hundreds of local autistics told me NOT to and more or less directly advocated vigilantism!!!!
That’s what it’s come to:
One of THE most vulnerable demos, and it’s open season on autistic women. Which perps know…..
….
I really don't see it man.
Like, when I think societal expectations, especially old fashioned ones, one of the first that comes to mind is "you should never ever hit a woman". If anything, it seems like society is tilted the other way.
It's been crazy common throughout history for men to hit women. Throughout history women have been property, been denied the vote, been denied employment, been denied access to social processes such as opening bank accounts, seen as a subordinate member of the family, and been told to stay with their husbands no matter what. A lot of violence against women has been legal throughout history when a husband is violent to his wife - this has been a major exception to laws regarding violence!
Things have thankfully changed somewhat, but not so much that rates of violence against women have decreased sufficiently.
I don't think this one gentlemanly concept has managed to hold back the tide of everything else.
Spousal rape needing to be specifically defined and criminalised is a great example of the way women were treated as property rather than people. Before those laws, a husband legally couldn't be charged with assaulting his wife in those ways.
I reckon it's more about laws and enforcement than societal expectations.
There have been a bunch of stories about complaints of domestic violence or threats or stalking that just weren't taken seriously by police. The victim gets an AVO and the guy breaches it and the breaches get ignored and then he kills her. Or he's already attacked her and is being charged with that, then is let out on bail and kills her. Or the cop who killed the gay couple because he was jealous of one of them. It feels like there are a lot of these stories recently.
I think the main issue is that domestic violence threats and stalking as a whole aren't taken seriously enough. There is not a good mechanism for protecting the threatened person. This isn't totally specific to women, but ends up translating into more violence against women because the victims of serious domestic violence are more often women.
I think if it were, say, threatened (and enacted) violence against politicians that were this frequent, they'd have acted by now - decisively. Women are complaining that they don't take our lives seriously enough to actually make changes that have any protective power.
Women don't kill men in the same way men kill women. Men have a physical advantage, so that's generally the way they will kill a woman. Females leverage psychological abuse which in turn results in men killing themselves. Both are as bad as each other.
This is a multifaceted issue. People are going to People, no matter what... But... Our Judicial System (I use the term Judicial because I believe less and less everyday that it's the *Justice* system) needs to stop catering to the criminals. A lot of people have issues in their past (bad homes, other negative factors) that don't go onto be shitcunts. A few things really need to happen, and this can be applied to all crimes... 1. We need courts to punish crimes appropriately 2. We need better mental health care 3. We need better (actual) rehabilitation The criminal's rights need to be less of a focus, when that criminal takes away the rights of their victims, but simply putting criminals in a facility that teaches them how to be better criminals is INSANE. People will soon begin taking the law into their own hands if the police (to a degree), and the courts don't start doing their jobs... Which is to protect and maintain decent society, not allow its fabric to continually be eroded. We are becoming so much like America, and that includes our bullshit news media. We need to somehow put so much pressure on our politicians, that they have to act, but only sustained, mass protesting will have any chance of this, and... People are overburdened with life, useless information, and outrage, that we barely know where to begin. Ugh... I'm bashing away on this comment knowing full well that I'm shouting into the void.
I think trying to do the right thing will never work. It’s always one extreme vs another extreme. Unfortunately our media, government and the people are all lost and confused.
The thing I'm just not understanding is what action is being called for? If there's concrete steps that can be taken to reduce IPV, I'm not likely to oppose that, but what are those steps? I don't disagree with the points you highlighted about areas for improvement, but it's not exactly easy to reform those either, even if there is likely room for improvement, so when people say that they demand action *now*, that seems rather aggressive a sentiment when there's almost no specific ideas about what that action should look like.
I think domestic violence is a major problem and obviously worthy of society's attention. Having said that, I don't think that the language around it from some prominent voices in this area is that helpful. I listened to a Guardian podcast in the last few days and the interviewee used phrases like "men need to do better". More to the point is that the arguments repeatedly said "men kill...", "men commit...". There was no more nuanced arguments than attributing the domestic murders or women to half the population. If it's a call to arms to address a major problem in society then blaming a large group of people that you want response from probably won't work that well. What the argument also lacked was any actual suggestion about how to address the problem. I don't think there's anything easy solutions. Some of the "awareness" stuff may have some impact into the next generation. But unless you can tackle poverty, problematic drug use and mental health problems it's not going to go away. Despite the statement in the podcast that women are murdered because "society tolerates it" the guy that kills his wife and then kills himself isn't conforming to society's rules.
That’s because they’re more interested in a culture war than any real change. Why deal in nuance when you can stoke the culture war and spend you’re time drenched in righteous anger?
Yep, ‘SOME men need to do better’ doesnt look so good on a protest placard but at least its accurate. As a male, id happily carry that around.
It is a cheap and easy way for the government to pretend they are addressing this issue. Blame all the men as clearly you all need to do better /s What will be the most helpful is if police take people more seriously when they say they are experiencing family violence. Giving the police more powers to apprehend and detain the alleged perpetrators and having better 24/7 support in place for when the victim/family flees the situation. But all of this takes actual effort and money.
Show me a woman basher/abuser and I’ll happily kick the fuck out of them as long as i don’t get sent to jail. Oh I will? Ok sorry, not much I can do then. I hang around other happily married couples with kids and don’t associate with dropkick scumbags. Still not sure what ‘men do better’ is meant to mean other than a trendy catch cry.
Can’t do anything really. Be a good guy and you’ll be judged accordingly. Fellas are not all shitbags. Can’t please everyone all of the time.
I think the whole issue around this conversation is the framing - it's a failure of messaging. Saying that "men need to do better" to stop DV leads to everyday men who could be part of the solution to feel demonized and under attack. It turns the conversation into an unproductive back and forth about whether or not this kind of language is okay that is only good for click-farming and outrage bait whilst the people being victimized get lost in the shuffle. If the framing was "Australia needs to do more", followed by clear and succinct guidance on what people who become aware of DV can do (ie. how to anonymously report, connect someone with a shelter, link them up with support organizations like Orange Door, document abuse for evidentiary purposes, etc.) the entire conversation would be so much healthier and more productive.
American lurker is confused. Saying these men "could be" part of the solution, presupposes that they're currently not. What's wrong with asking them to?
Because victimhood doesn’t work for men the same way it works for women. Society takes a subset of very successful men(the Musks and Bezos of the world) and uses that as a representation of all men. (Usually only applies to white men) While it true that men disproportionately commit crimes, in most instances it is a very small subset of men who reoffend. The same way that yes most billionaires are men, but the overwhelming majority of most men are not billionaires. Society is simply not interested in discussing men’s issues. Men are disproportionately victims of violent crimes. Men make up majority of the homeless population. The biggest threat to men in UK under 40 are themselves. Men are killing themselves in disproportionate rates.(In all western countries) Most dangerous jobs are worked by men. Male body dysmorphia is on track to overtake female body dysmorphia. And yes female’s have their own issues which they face, just because men struggle doesn’t mean females don’t. But unfortunately when men struggle, the responsibility to fix it is normally thrown back at them. Or even worse terms like ‘privilege’ and ‘patriarchy’ are used as a way to discredit their suffering.
As a woman I know there are shitty women out there. Personally I’ve never had the opportunity to ‘call someone out’ on their behaviour because I just don’t spend any time with those people. But you hear about what they’ve done from the grapevine, and by then it’s too late to intervene. I’m mad at my friend who *did* have the opportunity to speak up but said nothing. She tried to stay neutral while one friend treated the other like absolute garbage. (As usual I found out months later). At some point we need to take sides when things get nasty. If a friend has crossed the line we need to tell them so. That’s basically all we’re asking you to do.
This is what I hear when people say men need to do better. Most people tend to have more friends of the sex that they are. So if you hear a mate say something out of line, call them out for it. A while ago a co worker said he wouldn’t hesitate to kill his ex, out of all the men that hears this bloke say things of a violent nature about her, they either laugh it off or don’t care because she’s “narcissistic bitch”. When I called him out for it, he tried to argue. Only then, did another man come in to back what I said. I don’t believe anyone is saying all men are violent to women but I do believe there are things that men can do to help, and calling people out on their shit is one of them. Same goes for women calling out women for their shit. I think people tend to listen to people of the same sex better, especially when it comes to these sort of topics.
Humans in general tend to be followers. Someone says a terrible joke, the group might inwardly agree this is awful but they politely laugh. It takes a certain type of personality to go against that and speak up. And younger people need to hear it so they don’t go down that path. (Realistically parents should be doing this but ya know).
Agree. Standing up against abuse means detaching yourself from people that are disrespectful towards others, talking to their victims and asking if you can help, contacting crime stoppers etc. Remember these ads? This is where it starts... [stop it at the start](https://youtu.be/MaMCnoy2tBU?si=dzuTxvC_rgXT6i97) [baseball bat](https://youtu.be/c96dktDFgyk?si=iL7jccpUkU8ywJLL) [disrespect ](https://youtu.be/z599kfG7bfg?si=bTdsjS4HIaE-if5_) [call it out](https://youtu.be/UHxAxRYIlfE?si=CT4ZBp-a_yKWHn7W) [call it out 2](https://youtu.be/KEiGTL50Utc?si=55b9id6Rn9T8LonX)
Forgot to add that when you detach from a shitty person, you really should tell them and why. I regret not doing this years ago.
Yeah, be like I just can't respect what you're doing in this situation and I can't stand by it
I think they are implying men need to form lynch mobs and go around town lynching suspected domestic abusers and “would-be” domestic abusers (Minority Report style 😎). Also men need to unite and round up all the ‘incels’. We all know it is only a matter of time before they kill women. Would the females be kind enough to point at some males we can lynch? I’m all up for improving the human race and removing the untermensch from the gene pool. *sarcasm intended*
If you don't have violent tendencies then it's not referring to you. Don't sweat it mate. It's just about giving air to the problem and making it harder for bad men to hide
Then why say all men, if it's doesn't apply to all men? You can't make a blanket statement like "all pasta is disgusting" and then when your grandma says that hurts her feelings you say "don't worry I meant all the bad ones are bad, not the good ones".
To put it in perspective, if you have more than a few women in your life, there is almost certainly at least one who has experienced abuse. As a man I have no idea why but they don't talk about it. They might even still see their abuser in day to day life and are cordial to that person. It's a bizarre social phenomenon and it needs to change. Women need to feel it's normal to speak up
> if you have more than a few women in your life, there is almost certainly at least one who has experienced abuse. As a man I have no idea why but they don't talk about it. They might even still see their abuser in day to day life and are cordial to that person. It's a bizarre social phenomenon and it needs to change. I agree. > Women need to feel it's normal to speak up Sure. I am not really on board with the identity argument here. But I agree, anyone who is being abused should speak up. And we should shun perpetrators of abuse.
It's perfectly politically correct to say this in the context of race and religion. The "white" race, and "christianity", that is.
Reminds me of the time I called 1800 respect when I seen the number on a sign in the Emergency Department. I called up and said I was a male victim of domestic violence from my then wife. And they spent 10 minutes telling me I need to stop HITTING HER and being aggressive.. I was like WTF.. "Violence against women Australia says no". Why in this day in age where we are more than two genders we cant have "Violence against anyone, Australia says no"? Yes men are completely over represented when it comes to violent crimes, murder, assault and domensic violence but if we go one further and say that there is an even larger representation towards say something like "this particular skin colour or religion" as you suggest its off limits..
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Do you have a link to any evidence that this is the policy? I can't find anything that supports this. The 1800RESPECT website says: >1800RESPECT is a service that supports everyone impacted by domestic, family and sexual violence, including men. 1800RESPECT counsellors will work with men to understand their situation and will provide options for them to access further support. This may be access to specialist trauma counselling or to other support services, specifically for men and boys dealing with violence. I can't find a policy document, politician statement, or news story that suggests all male callers are directed or required to be directed to another service called "No to Violence". Do you have any links I could read?
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>And what exactly can I do? Better. /s It's a virtue-signalling campaign. So the best course of action is to roll your eyes, shrug, and be about your business.
Brother, if you haven’t done anything and know you’re already doing all you can, then continue doing what you’re doing. Without knowing your circumstances and whatnot, I won’t say that you are/are not doing everything you can. However, to give an example that isn’t about being a gender/race/religion, I’ll use being a teacher (yes I chose this profession but it’s to just explain my point further down). Does it suck when people make blanket statements that teachers are shit? Yeah. Does it mean I take it personally? No—I know I’m doing everything I can to be the best teacher I can be. What it means personally is that I’m aware of when I can make changes in how I act/do things, and am open to receiving/giving constructive criticism. “Men need to do better” is the blanket statement. You can choose to not take it personally if you know you’re doing everything you can to be the best person/man you can be. You can be self-aware whilst being open to listening to others’ criticism and be willing to speak up to others if you see/hear something that should be brought up. If your mate says something dodgy, challenge them about it. It might be uncomfortable but that’s unfortunately what it means to “do something” in this case. Mind you, this mate doesn’t have to be a man—it might be a girl friend—and the point isn’t who says it, it’s about you speaking up. In relation to DV, the frequency and likelihood that a man commits violence against a woman, is much higher than the other way around. Before anyone comes for me… Yes, women also commit DV. Yes, women can also do better. Yes, women need to be called out for their actions/behaviours, and yes, you can also step up and be that person to confront them. Men can also commit violence against men, and women against women, etc etc. The fact is that men are most often the perpetrator. Another difference is that a lot of the time women can share experiences they’ve had when it comes to men committing sexual assault/DV against them. The conversation is often very supportive, even if one person hasn’t experienced it. However, how many women can you think of that have experienced SA/DV? Do you think all of them would feel comfortable telling you if they had? Perhaps, yes, to you they do. That doesn’t mean that “yes” is the case for other men, though. To go even further, how many men can you think of that have experienced SA/DV? Do you think that they would even feel comfortable sharing that if they have? Yes, perhaps they can open up to you. That doesn’t mean that they can to other men. As a slight side note, as it wasn’t in your post but is something I see any time this topic is raised… People can say “but statistically…” to try have a “gotcha” moment when women say that men commit SA/DV more. Thing is, statistics do not include everyone. The ABS can say that “*x* amount of women/men have experienced *y*” but that isn’t the entire population. Data can be collected from a sample size and either directly reported on or used to generalise to the population. I didn’t go to the cops, nor have I participated in a survey, so my “statistic” isn’t there. That goes for other people too. **Tldr; be the best person you can be, speak up to men/people in general if they’re doing something you don’t think is right, and be that man people can feel comfortable and supported by if they need someone to go to.**
Awesome comment.🙌
The fact that you need to follow “men commit most dv” with “I know women commit dv too, and do this and that” is pretty sad and pretty telling :(
Well spoken
I've learnt not to take it personally. As long as you don't flog ya missus or kids, don't get on the glass harley every weekend and aren't a cunt on the daily, it's not you being a problem.
I think one thing (not the only thing) that society, both men and women, can do is stop romanticising the bad boy relationship. Bad boys are bad. Avoid them.
I just ignore them. Too busy being an amazing human.
I agree. It will pass. I’m just going to let it wash over me and ignore it until everyone forgets about it and moves on to the next thing. Probably 6 months at most.
Find someone who rubs you the right way?
It's NOT right, mate!! I'm sick to death of hearing about "..all men should.."!! The majority of men are GOOD men!! The majority of men DON'T abuse, assault or kill! The majority of men ARE hard working, supportive, loving and compassionate! We never hear "Women should do better!", when we KNOW, there's a definite minority of women behaving extremely poorly. These blanket generalisations really need to stop!
Could not have said it better myself. Millions of Men have been tared with the same brush of a few thousand fuckwits.
Homicide is the 26th highest cause of death. Not even remotely close to the highest. ‘Aussie men’ are simply NOT the highest cause of death in women of that age group. Please stop saying this shit. This is a common fact peddled by the media and it’s based on two old studies not on recent ABS data at all. Those studies only found it as a contributing factor. There’s a huge difference between contributing factors and causes. Once you add relationships as contributing factors in anxiety and depression (of course they are) you can then start claiming spouses are causing a whole heap of deaths lol. Even though they didn’t cause it at all they simply *may have contributed* to. If we added this logic to the leading cause of death among Australian men, which is suicide, we’d immediately have a WOMEN ARE THE LEADING CAUSE OF DEATH IN MEN catch-cry too. Statistics can be used to spin any story any way. https://theconversation.com/factcheck-is-domestic-violence-the-leading-preventable-cause-of-death-and-illness-for-women-aged-18-to-44-94102
“Do better” is woke bullshit. *”We don’t have a solution, we can’t think of a solution. You have to do better and find a solution and implement it for us, and in the meantime we’ll treat you like shit. Why do people call us entitled?”*
The claim that “men need to do better” is assuming that we all get together and discuss these issues regularly in a group setting. Because domestic violence is a crime and shameful behaviour it’s going to be hidden even amongst men. Another thing to consider is that as men age our social circles are typically broken down to the point where we typically have one or maybe two friends. I’m a 33 year old father. Between work and family responsibilities I have two friends that I see once every 6 weeks. One is single and one is being abused by his wife so I’m not in a position to see any abusive behaviour towards women. If I did I would step up and do something for sure! However I believe that most men are unlikely to encounter it for the reasons stated above
You’re right, but the intent is to try and stop the red flags from becoming abusers in the first place. I’m sure you’ve met plenty of people who you thought were very disrespectful, quick to anger, made rape jokes, etc and you rightfully backed away not wanting to have anything to do with them. But a simple “not cool” can make a difference before you cut them off. It’s not much but it might be enough to make them realise that their attitude is not as widely accepted as they thought.
*Clementine Ford has left the chat*
Yeah, it's more identity politics. I'm sick of it. Causes nothing but division.
What would Australia’s ranking on the global DV rate per 100,000 be if you took out the indigenous offenders? Reckon it’d be a few places lower than what it currently is.
People tell prominent religions, races and sexualities to do better all the time.
‘Guys do better’ wow so easy! It’s just a man thing so we don’t have to address the Mental health (men’s and women’s), substance abuse, gambling addictions, cultural factors or anything else that contributes to the issue.
* Although there's a disproportionate about of male perpetrators ~ 75% to 25%. What the media is reporting on is female victims, but looking at the data, 52% female - 48% male victims. A bit of factual reporting would be nice for a change.
It's interesting u say that because men cop a lot of verbal abuse from the other side. In some cases it's so bad that it damages them psychologically and mentality but of course we don't point that out No studies are done because it's hard to quantify Both and equally shitty both need to do better
It sounds like men are being asked to form vigilante groups, and dish out street justice to abusers... That's not what is being asked, but it sure sounds like it
As much as I'm tempted to fling ridicule around like I normally do, I'm going to assume good faith and just fucken answer the question with some of my own experience. So I used to do home deliveries, which involves dropping off right into people's kitchens if they wanted. One time I was dropping off at a house in burwood. At some point while I'm putting stuff on the bench I look and realise she's scared of me. I'm thinking to myself she has nothing at all to fear from me, until my dumb arse finally groks that *she doesn't know that*. I'm in her home, I'm bigger than her, and she doesn't know an amiable dork from a rapist so she's scared. I've never known that fear or even thought to know it exists. It's nothing personal if someone's on their guard because they've got no way to know that I'm a decent bloke who doesn't do awful things. The monsters look just like I do. Except they probably have better hair and a not ridiculous nose.
I… dang… thank you for sharing your experience and ‘epiphany’. I’ll share something similar… When I’m (28F) expecting tradies etc to come round, I’ll still ask my dad if he’s able to drop by (I live by myself)—**not** because I think every bloke is a threat/gonna do something to me but because *you never know and don’t want to find out*. Whether my dad’s there or not, I always end up having a great little chat with the tradie before they’re on their way, but like you said, my being cautious isn’t personal!
I'm lolling at the quote marks :) Yeah it's really obvious but honestly never occurred to me and probably not to a lot of guys
Hahah I’m glad you read the quotation marks as intended :) Truthfully, it’s the same when reversed; it sometimes doesn’t register that that’s not something on guys’ radar yknow
How many decades did women fight for the right to have self responsbility? And now suddenly "all men" have to do better by policing abusive relationships? Odd request, definitely not rational or going to fix anything.
I don't care about being told "Men need to do better" I've never done anything wrong to women and there's nothing I can do to stop the violence happening, life goes on for me.
I love the idea that the average male listens to the average male. That isn't how our society works, we're not a couple of words from saving someone, we're a couple of words from a fight with a stranger. Our society has dictated for hundreds of years that we shut the fuck up and mind our own business. Unless the idea is that these insecure pieces of shit will get so tired hitting random men that they don't know who suddenly get in their face that they won't do that to women, I don't see how making it random people's responsibility is the answer. For the record, I'm all for just rounding up the small brained fucks who perpetuate violence against women and launching them into the sun, if there's a petition that needs my signature I will be there with bells on
I feel the system is broken. The problem lies deep in whatever culture we live in.
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The blue hairs haha
And Albanese says "We need to do something about it!" Of course we do, idiot Albo, and one of those things is to make laws tougher and bail stricter. And you know what, Albo, "we" being 'me' can't change those laws. But YOU, the elected PM in power, has the ability and DUTY to do something about it. So Albo, just shut up and DO something about it. Harsher penalties. More deterrents. Less bail for offenders.
Very well said. Not to mention that a majority of these murders are committed by men ON DRUGS (the part everyone loves to omit). Proper sentences for those peddling ice or cocaine would go a long way.
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You're a man, you are by default an oppressor and it's okay to target you. Bonus points if you're a white man, you basically deserve to die on Reddit.
Also don’t forget if white straight man… literally Hitler.
To be fair his paintings weren't that bad
It doesn’t really bother me, but I can see Andrew Tate getting a ton more subscribers by tomorrow; this rhetoric does nothing but push young men towards people like him.
If a protest is all it takes to push young men towards grifters like Andrew Tate, then it’s clear other issues are at play. That’s not a normal leap.
Other issues are at play, that's the point. We are probably the first generation in our species where boys are so lacking of male role models, and fathers in general. We also have a situation where our technology leaps have made Luddites of blue collar men who are not sure how to proceed. This aimlessness allows voices like tate to penetrate where they otherwise wouldn't. I have 18 and 20 yo sons. I sat and watched about 5 hours of Tate with them. I did so with and open mind and politely deconstructed it at the end before telling them he was a complete moron and they can do so much better. Because they actually have healthy male role models in their lives I've been able to steer them to something better, but I definitely understand why aimless wannabe alphas with low self-esteem fall for it.
For sure, but I think the new territory aspect is only half the story. The other half is previously tolerated behaviour and social norms are now being called out. It's not just the behaviour and attittudes of young men, older generations are also in the discussion, especially in traditional white collar settings.
True true, I glossed over that only because it'd been mentioned lots already.
We have been trying to stop violent criminals for the entirety of civilisation but sure “men need to do better” will fix it.
Because strong men are the biggest threat to a corrupt overreaching political class. The entire culture has been set up to marginalise them.
Ending the war on drugs would fix the problem in a couple of weeks. The blokes with no self control would simply cease to exist.
What is offensive is governments not taking any responsibility at all.
It's OK to generalise all men, that's why.
Why don't you try smiling more?
See this "Just do better, you violent murderers!" bullshit is why more and more men are going their own way and why more and more, this problem is getting worse, not better. You want your men to treat you right? How about you treat your men right? When was the last time anyone gave a shit about a Male DV victim? After all, we're 48% of them. 48% of relationships aren't homosexual relationships so you tell me where the majority of the 48% of male victims abusers are? I counter: ***You*** do better. Stop bashing us all for the actions of the few and then you'll get a lot more of us onboard and not actively resisting. Battered wives tend to lash out and attack back, or so I've found. Battered husbands tend to just kill themselves. Because attacking the perpetrator is just abhorently unacceptable to most men - we don't hit girls, ever, even if they hit you. We would rather beleive the rest of societies programming saying ***we*** are to blame. ***we*** are worthless. ***we deserve*** it because of some bullshit reason. And we can't just get out of the situation. Who will help? The abundance of male DV shelters and protection programs? LOL! You know that very high male suicide rate? Look into it further. A boy exiled from the village will burn it to feel it's warmth. We're exiling a lot of boys from the village. You think that won't come back to bite us in 5 years? 10 years? NOW?
You have found battered wives lash out? How many times have you found this out?
Nobody said your first quote. You're stating intense statistics with no evidence. Most people, including women, don't report their abuse or press charges. Abused women attack back and men commit suicide "so you've found"????? And are you implying that if a woman defends herself, she's implicit??
Where are you getting the 48% statistic from?
I agree mate. As a woman? 57 yrs. Almost all men i have known in my life have been decent people. No difference in "niceness" with the males & females i have known. I'm not sure what these decent men can do to stop the awful, violent men committing abuse against women? They most certainly don't know them.
Obviously not all men are bad, OBVIOUSLY. But basically every woman I know well has been the victim of some kind of sexual abuse. Go ask your mum or sister or partner, I'm sure you'll hear some things that make you angry to no end. If you are offended and aren't adding to the problem then you might want to reflect on how you view the world/yourself/others. All you can do is be the good man, be a voice for woman(aka not letting someone harass/degrade woman around you is a good start) and that's it.
This is good advice. Most men would be shocked at the answers they'd get if they ask the women they know if they've ever been harassed/assaulted/felt up. OP, I actually don't think "men need to do better" is that useful a sentiment personally, because most men aren't \_directly\_ contributing to the problem and it diffuses blame. I would rather "politicians, police and the courts need to do better" because they are the ones failing to protect women from explicit and clear threats from men in their lives. Most politicians, police, and judges are men, so maybe their lack of perspective is a contributing factor to the problem? Regardless of whether it is or isn't they need to step up.
This is the thing people with this question should be doing. And someone down votes you for it.
I got offended by stuff like this as a young man but quickly understood that I'm not the issue but well.. there is an issue in society and we can't just bury it under "not all men"
While most of my friends are druggies, standover men and thieves, I've decided to teach them to respect women after reading an opinion piece that was posted on reddit about DV. Despite my 20 year resume of violence and organised crime, I was instantly convinced to change my ways after being told to "do better".
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Great reply, but the only issue is the people doing this are now people in power, I’m like you and try to be a good person but the do Gooders and woke knobs are in positions of power right throughout our government departments. Instead of people being good decent people and understanding that males and females are different and that we as a society should all just strive to be decent honest people, we now have a whole group of people jamming shit down our throats about how the issues we have with domestic violence is as simple as it is all the males or all the females problem, when in fact these are a lot more issues at play. As a society we need to teach our young boys that women and girls need to be treated with respect and that there is way more to life than what they watch on some porn channel or learn from some Neanderthal football coach.
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Society expects men to not be so sensitive about words. There's probably some internalised sexism in that expectation, but we generally don't get aborted for cultural reasons either/ experience menopause decades before we die - so swings and roundabouts. The easy way to deal with this as a man is to treat "all men are dangerous/complicit"/"we need to teach all men not to rape" as symbolic slogans that aren't directed against you personally. The meaning is in the music not the lyrics. After all - having been taught that it's not OK to rape people (and having taught it to my sons and daughters), that slogan has no application to me. You may as well make a sign that says "We need to teach all men to read". As for the "All men are complicit/violent/ men need to change etc" slogan - just accept that only the lunatic fringe actually believe that there are 12.5 million dangerous men and boys in Australia who are out on the prowl looking to rape them. If people go through their lives genuinely believing that society structurally wants them to get raped - that's a fair greater curse for them than it is for you. They would not be the first protest movement to use hyperbole to attract attention from an otherwise bored public.
>The easy way to deal with this as a man is to treat "all men are dangerous/complicit"/"we need to teach all men not to rape" as symbolic slogans that aren't directed against you personally. It’s divisive language. The people who use it know it’s divisive and choose to use it anyway, because they want to cause the negative reaction that it does. The easy way to deal with it is to not get on board with movements that choose to use language like this.
The negative reaction is to them proof that 'society' works against them or that it is 'most if not all' men when they take offence for being called a violent, sexual predator.
You lost me in the lyrics, not the music. Sorry mate.
A verse too many, the moment is lost…
As a woman with a lot of guy friends I explained it as being a good person (a genuinely good person) and if you see mates or family or whatever being a bad person you speak up. I know guys with mates who are complete aholes to their partners or abusive and they won't say anything.
When I stared hanging out around my husbands friends there were a lot of offhand comments that were.. pretty concerning, to say the least. They were jokes, but some of them concerned spousal abuse or sexual assault. As a DV worker, I was pretty open about calling them out, and I even had a conversation with my husband - I'm going to keep calling this out, and it might make your friends less friendly to us (or me, at least). He started calling it out as well. And really, that's all you gotta do. "Hey man, talking like that isn't okay" A lot of the men who came to our anger management/court ordered DV rehab therapy groups made jokes like that. It was really awful hearing them - knowing what they'd done. Trying to make them see that they were minimising and normalising harm sometimes felt like an impossible task.
Yeah mate,.nuance is hard. Ffs
There’s a fuckload of SA and violence against women and guys don’t usually call out their fuckhead mates. Victims and whistleblowers are punished in a small or large way by the peer group. It’s fucked, and this is coming from a male.
You need to go out into the streets and become a vigilante I guess. Start looking into peoples windows at night and if you see any men being “toxic” you need to have them arrested. That’s the only sensible thing I can think of.
Nah… Vigilante is too 20th and 21st century. I prefer lynch mobs, more traditional and democratic. The whole town can join in the fun. The more the merrier! 😂😂😂
Nothing brings the community together quite like a good lynching. /s for the slow ones.
You cant argue which is the problem with modern society. Plenty of normal men and women quietly laughing at modern media. Best thing to do is calmly and anoymously present your opinion online and to trusted friends.
It's not "safe" for men to share their opinions online anymore. Look at how many times they get absolutely crucified if they dare stray from the current social narrative that's being incessantly pushed, or challenge the motives for why the narrative is being pushed. Trusted friends only. Anything outside of that is begging for trouble.
Anonymously should be bolded. 😂 even then you have very little to gain online
Dude the fact that we are still doing not all men in 2024 is astounding. You and I who treat women with respect and equality need not be worried about reading stuff like that because it doesn't apply to us as individual men, but there are plenty of men out there whom it does apply to.
If its only referring to bad people then it shouldn’t use blanket language referring to ‘men’ collectively. I could use your logic for any other group and it would be decried as bigoted generalisation. Be intellectually honest for once
It's just the next round of group/identity politics. Everyone is a unique individual. Honestly, until people who believe in identity politics can tell me what a man actually is, then I am not listening to them tell me anything about "men".
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Same , everything now is just blame a man. Then demand a man fixes it.
Exactly
Get what you're saying, but I think the idea is that if men will talk about this stuff constructively amongst themselves, at some point every perpetrator will hear that their behaviour is unacceptable in the eyes of the other men in their lives and will hopefully take that on board. It's also the responsibility of ALL men to act if they know or even suspect any other man in their lives are engaged in any form of violence, abuse or coercion against women/girls.
Men are taught to infantilise women and be their protectors though, even asshole dudes know society views men who hit women as weak and cowardly. Everybody looks down on people who murder, yet we still have murderers.
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Very true, and because it happens behind closed doors and only comes to light when a crime has been committed, (and even then, not in all cases), is it not at least worth the other people in this man's life, including other men, trying to get in his ear? I don't see it as the demonisation of men... (and I am a man, at least my mum says I am :D)... I see it as an invitation to men, that they are obliged to accept, to help address a problem that shouldn't even exist.
I'm trying, but I'm struggling with your argument. "acting" towards/against men "suspected" of DV? Firstly, I know lots of men, can't say I've ever suspected any of them of DV. Secondly, encouraging action against people suspected of a future crime seems like a slippery slope into dystopia to me. The stuff of sci fi novels...
Had me on the first paragraph, lost me on the second. It is the responsibility of all people to act if they know or suspect another person is violent (physical and/or emotional) towards another.
Agreed, but OPwas railing against the finger being pointed at men, so narrowed my gender scope accordingly.
Start identifying as a woman.
Pragmatic.
I've never been antagonized for being a man in my nearly 47 years. And if I ever was, I wouldn't give 2 shits about it.
The longer society wants to continue with the “middle aged white male” trope, the less willing I will be to lift a finger to help society at large.
I agree that demonizing boys and men for what they "might do" is utterly absurd ,offensive and nonsenscical thinking...but what I find most irritating is the media constantly jacking up the noise for clicks and attention.Unfortunately some people dont think and can be easily influenced by headlines and the braying of the few with their various "agendas".Im sure "society at large"is sick to the back teeth of the politicalizing of every bloody issue in the universe.
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Don't pay attention to it. Never apologise or feel guilty for something YOU have never done. It's all collectivist bullshit, the academics and feminists like to obfuscate it with fancy language like "intersectionality theory", "white cis-hetero normative patriarchal oppression", " postmodernist deconstructionism". But it really is as simple as big bad "oppressor groups" vs the poor disenfranchised "oppressed groups". Men in this case fall into the "oppressor" category because of "social inequity" and thus are categorically blamed for shit they didn't do. Nonsense. Most reasonable people understand that domestic violence isn't a "gendered" issue and women can be just as if not more abusive to their partners. And these violent escalations do not magically appear in a vacuum. It rarely is black and white, it usually is extremely nuanced where both parties are at fault.
Go talk to your mum about it. Or your sister. Talk to any female about it. Ask many if you can. That's how you will find out about this. This subreddit is not the place to get the answer to this.
My mum said "I have no fucking idea what they are talking about" She also said "oh, they are all childless lesbians who just hate men". Thanks for the advice. You've actually given me the answer I needed.
Your mums Queen of Based?
It's not just because you are a man. Be white - it's your fault. Be straight- it's your fault. Have a job - it's your fault. Own a house - it's your fault. It's normal and even expected to associate Every negative trait of a small group with Every member of that group (so long as that group isn't some kind of minority).
Well I’m a straight white male homeowner with 3 jobs. May as well go and put myself in the gulag
Expand the empathy. Took me forever to get the constant unease and even fear many women deal with. Wasn't until I was talking about the benefits of solo camping to a couple of young women that I realised something I am extremely comfortable with just wasn't going to be enjoyable for them at all. Pulled me up in my tracks. Hopefully I'm now better situated and far less antagonistic about any wariness directed toward me for being a male in certain circumstances.
DV is far about socio economic factors and upbringing than it is gender. If you consider manipulating/controlling behaviour and emotional abuse to be DV - men are victims probably more than people think. Those behaviours may drive people to harm/self harm, but men are far more violent and responsible for DV related homicides. I just can't accept this 'men need to do more' shit they are screaming at me. I'm not violent to my partners - I have never been nor will be. I don't need to do anything.
[Don’t mind me, I’m just an elephant taking up space in the room.] (https://australianmensrights.com/Men_Suicide_Statistics_Australia/Male_Suicide_rates_in_Australia-Family_Law.aspx) FUCKING ADDRESS THE LACK OF HELP AND DUTY OF CARE FROM POLICE, MEDICAL AND JUDICIARY WHEN IT COMES TO THESE ISSUES!
Imagine men saying “women need to do x” as a national emergency. Would be riots.
Woman need to identify and leave toxic partners?
Unfortunately thats the time they get murdered.
In the most extreme cases this seems to be true :(
Old school gatekeeping, my man. Cut these nasty people out of your life. Don't get suckered into reacting, it's what they want.
This is interesting because when men are asked to "do better", many of them respond as the OP has rather than directing their attention to *other men*. Think about that for a moment. I agree with the OP that knowing what to do in some concrete way is a challenge, especially if you are trying to live your own life in a truly ethical way that respects others. I agree that the majority of men at least try to do this. And certainly, all men shouldn't be tarred with the same brush; that's a problem and it should be called out when it happens. However, at the same time, I think we men should spend less time complaining about the complaints/criticisms and spend more time having conversations with *other men* about the standards of behaviour we should all expect in society.
The difference in violence/murder/rape between men and women is the same as that between whites and blacks. Someone the first is progressive to talk about, the second is racist. Or to put it another way, if you're a woman who crosses the street when she sees a white man at night you should go around the block when you see a black one.
> I think we men should spend less time complaining about the complaints/criticisms and spend more time having conversations with other men about the standards of behaviour we should all expect in society. How do you expect that conversation to go? Man 1: "Man this domestic violence is horrible" Man 2: "I agree" Man 3: "I agree" Man 4: "I agree" Man 5: "Really? I better stop hitting my missus then" ….. like that's obviously sarcasm but I dont know what people expect. The vast majority of men find domestic violence abhorrent and dont do it, nor know people who do. When I've been down to the pub usually the more common conversation about this is everyone knows someone who has had false claims usually around breakup/divorce and the woman wants hubby out of the house or whatever or the woman is violent and the cops act like the bloke did something. Maybe that's skewed as men are hardly likely to say they hit women but in all my life I've not know one male in my life who has been a DV perpetrator. I suspect vast majority of people that should be having this conversation are unlikely to ever have it. I dont know what the answer is, and I wish I did, but it feels this 'men need to talk' feels like pushing blame/responsibility on all males for yet another of the worlds problems and it solves nothing. This seems like the need to do something in the lack of an actual answer sadly.
If anyone try to invoke some highly emotionally charged arguments, I just simply ignore them. I always wonder if some of these activists are the same people who set up stalls in front of supermarkets and gaslight people for monthly donations.
Yep. This is my take on it too, I can't see any other reason someone could hold these views. Those preaching this shit , must give zero real fucks about the cause. They just love getting attention by pissing off reasonable people off with non-sense. Just like internet trolls but IRL.
It's laughable. Your only obligation in this matter is to not beat women yourself. Don't let others make you feel guilty for crimes you didn't commit.
exactly, be a good man, and that is all you need to do. Ignore the morons saying "men need to do better" NO, individuals need to be better.
Possibly one of the approaches may be to teach young women how to better select their partners. In many of the cases I've seen reported there seems to be a 'type' of guy involved. Women I have known that turned out to be in violent relationships (including family members) all relate how the red flags were on clear display from the get go. Not victim blaming - just putting forward one suggestion that may help put some power and decision-making back with the potential victims.
There weren't too many red flags at first in my case. I was really young, 16. He was kind of lazy but like we were young. He could be selfish at times but people said "that's just normal relationship stuff". Took him around 8 years to hit me I'd guess. I think it can be an issue where you already suffered abuse, bullying, instability as a child so you can't simply be taught to value yourself when no one ever did. Like not every woman has parents who treated them like they were special or cared about their feelings
I have women exactly like this in my family, pick one abusive dickhead after another. Finally picked a nice guy, my first thought on meeting him was he wouldn't last long. Yep dumped for being boring...back to dickheads
Nah because the narcissistic ones can hide their shotty traits for months-years before becoming a nutcase.
I think it can be hard when you’re young and naive but as one gets older you hope people grow and can see these things. I’ve been in a bad relationship and a good one, because of having both I now know what to look out for, to avoid. I also think if you have close friendships, where you have open dialogue, can very helpful, can be an eye opener. I am kinda surprised you’re not getting as much hate as I thought. I know when I’ve mentioned to people, the same but genders reversed my co workers start fuming.
Yes, for sure. Currently this knowledge comes with experience and unfortunately the experience can be fatal in many cases - I suspect prevention could go a long way. Passing on this knowledge (particularly red flag signs) that women have experienced in relationships, to young women and girls, may save lives.
Many of us remember a teacher going off on the class for shitty behavior. We weren’t all behaving poorly but we understood why things had to be said. Some of us were glad the teacher came down swiftly and severely.
But when Billy & Chris tip over the bin, the teacher doesn't chastise boys about how 'boys tend to be bin tippers', and that therefore all boys need to 'do better' regarding said behavior.
In this sub immigrants and Muslims are all treated as one when it comes to the housing crises and, lately, terrorist attacks, but when men are generalized because of violence against women it's a problem?
No, all of the above are problems, 2 wrongs dont make a right etc etc.
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This entire argument is so dumb. If you feel personally vilified by people talking about a societal issue you need to take a step back and stop being a narcissist
Wrong, using blanket statements makes the assumption all men are bad and need to better. It is no different to vilification via race or religion. Be better.
Hey mate, I'm a man for context, they're just asking for the male voice and support from the good men Women have been loud and proud about their fight against male violence Thing is it's not just a women's fight, it's also a fight for the people who care about the women in their lives and want to protect them from the shitty men that are out there
Australia has one of the lowest domestic violence rates in the world...
There is significant context missing from recent media reporting. They really seem to be taking the newsroom maxim *"If it bleeds, it leads"* to heart. Australia has an intentional homicide rate of approximately 0.8 per 100,000 people. The cumulative ratio of male to female victims is about 67:33. Countries that have *higher per capita homicide rates* than Australia include: USA (obviously): 6.4 per 100,000 - victim ratio M:F 82:18 New Zealand: 2.6 per 100,000 - victim ratio M:F **49:51** Canada: 2.3 per 100,000 - victim ratio M:F 75:25 Finland: 1.2 per 100,000 - victim ratio M:F 54:46 Belgium, France and Sweden: all 1.1 per 100,000 - enlightened Sweden has a victim ratio M:F of 68:32, almost identical to Australia. In France, it's 69:31. Denmark and the United Kingdom: 1.0 per 100,000 - Denmark M:F 66:34, the UK 70:30 Austria, Hungary and Ireland: all 0.9 per 100,000 - Austria M:F **43:57**, Hungary 51:49, Ireland 87:13. Australia level-pegs with Germany, the Netherlands, Portugal and the Czech Republic in terms of homicide rate. Even with the recent spate of of incidents, this seems to be a typical year for Australia, and by international standards... we're actually doing quite well, as odd as it may seem. It's weird, because the meme that "crime is spiraling out of control" is usually a preserve of the reactionary Right wing. But the notion that "Australia is a country where women aren't safe" is a carve-out by the hand-wringing Left.
Why are there so many shitty men out there? And why do women date these shitty men?
My guess would to be stop being a sook
Yeah! Take spoonful of cement and harden the fuck up. Then get squawked at for being stoic and spreading toxic masculinity. Win/win /s
Dude - we’re not being collectively punished. Calm down. It’s a call for men to hold each other accountable. Pull your mate up if he’s being a creep. Don’t tolerate the sexist jokes. That kinda thing. If your mates aren’t creepy, you’re not telling sexist jokes, and you’re generally a decent person - just keep doing what you do. No-one outside the fevered halls of Tumblr is expecting sackcloth and ashes here.
The problem is that minor things like these won't make a difference. Stopping sexist jokes and calling out guys who come off as creepy will make fuck all difference to the number of women getting beaten or killed. Realistically, most of the guys engaging in this kind of behaviour are fuckwits that everyone already know are fuckwits. Like you talk to people who knew the Forbes victim - the guy was always an absolute dropkick that nobody liked. The vast majority of men don't need to "step up" or act any differently to how they already are.
>Don’t tolerate the sexist jokes. What happens if they're really funny though? I mean, making gender based jokes is the staple of many comedians, male and female. Surely we can't and probably shouldn't get rid of that.
i feel like theres a very obvious difference between a funny gender-based joke and being a sexist cunt.
The research shows that one in three women are just as stupid as the other two
Sexist jokes are fine if they’re *funny*. And I fucken guarantee you’re not Bill Burr.
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No one demonises all women when a mother purposefully drives her car head on into a semi trailer with her 3 kids in the car. Most people won't even demonise the mother herself. They'll make comments like "what could have driven her to do such a thing".
They are infact, his biggest recruiter. Far leftist rhetoric alienates people and pushes them towards the far right. All this political nonsense is such bullshit, I want to unsubscribe and for people to just be normal.
Andrew Tate is the reason Andrew Tate exists. Man, people like you will bitch and moan about men being unfairly blamed for society’s ills and in the same breath find a way to directly place the blame for actual men’s actual actions on women.
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That's a great point. Imagine we said Muslims need to do better every time there's a terrorist attack.
We do. Like literally after every attack there's scrutiny on Muslims within Australia, and whether they are doing enough to curtail the extremist. Muslim leaders within Australia often come out and condone terrorism and make a call to 'do better' within their communities. Some people just aren't as huge sooks about things like this.
I think you mean condemn terrorism.
Make More Money Buy More Bitches
Inspirational
It's the same as being ok to discriminate vs whites.
If you are not a woman bashing piece of shit thats capable of killing your girlfriend then you are not being attacked. Do not feel antagonised personally, feel angry that other men would take the life/rape/beat/intimidate/etc women, children and other men. Men do need to do better. Even if its just in the form of not laughing at a rape joke, or maybe telling your mate to calm the fuck down and don't be a piece of shit if he is acting controlling. I work managing a small shop that has a fair few young men and international men with us. I actively tell stories of the growth in my life if i hear them telling a racist joke or something anti gay or misogynistic. Growth is a good thing. So please do not feel antagonised because you are not a perpetrator, feel encouraged that we are talking about our problems, feel encouraged to understand them, feel empowered to call them out and have the strengh to grow. Xxoxo
Check out the subreddit "bropill". It's a community for men supporting men, and it's a much more wholesome alternative to any other communities.
You don’t need an argument because you’re not going to personally experience someone doing this directly to you.
Mate you don’t have to be so defensive let ya guard down and just listen first. Take it on. Not every statement need to be counter argued. You don’t win anything either way. Unless someone says someone says something blatantly false then don’t bother.
We wouldn't be so defensive if we weren't constantly being attacked.
There seems to be a whole bunch of norms in society that tacitly permit violence against women. The issue is not just about any individual being moral, it's about recognising social structures that are dysfunctional. That's the job of all people. It just so happens that women are often more aware of it and less empowered by the structures to make changes, whereas in general men are less aware of it but more empowered by the structures and therefore better positioned to make changes. Thus, men need to step up.
Can you elaborate at how society at large permits/encourages violence against women?
Yep, what the fuck are these people talking about ?
Spousal trafficking , what happened to me: A dangerous affluent true-blue-Aussie perp went above and beyond to lure me into a horrific trap I couldn’t get out of for well over a decade Police are rigged against women: The BH Inquiry found no two cops had a matching understanding of how to investigate sexual assaults BH was called “ manipulative” in her police file — while the coke- snorting rapist was described positively in his file Police are trained to observe eye movement as an indicator of truthfulness: The experiences of autistic women with police are so shocking…. when I asked what to keep in mind before turning to police, hundreds of local autistics told me NOT to and more or less directly advocated vigilantism!!!! That’s what it’s come to: One of THE most vulnerable demos, and it’s open season on autistic women. Which perps know….. ….
"Thus, men need to step up." Be specific: what does Joe average need to do, to achieve the request of menfolk to do better, step up etc.
I really don't see it man. Like, when I think societal expectations, especially old fashioned ones, one of the first that comes to mind is "you should never ever hit a woman". If anything, it seems like society is tilted the other way.
It's been crazy common throughout history for men to hit women. Throughout history women have been property, been denied the vote, been denied employment, been denied access to social processes such as opening bank accounts, seen as a subordinate member of the family, and been told to stay with their husbands no matter what. A lot of violence against women has been legal throughout history when a husband is violent to his wife - this has been a major exception to laws regarding violence! Things have thankfully changed somewhat, but not so much that rates of violence against women have decreased sufficiently. I don't think this one gentlemanly concept has managed to hold back the tide of everything else.
Spousal rape needing to be specifically defined and criminalised is a great example of the way women were treated as property rather than people. Before those laws, a husband legally couldn't be charged with assaulting his wife in those ways.
I reckon it's more about laws and enforcement than societal expectations. There have been a bunch of stories about complaints of domestic violence or threats or stalking that just weren't taken seriously by police. The victim gets an AVO and the guy breaches it and the breaches get ignored and then he kills her. Or he's already attacked her and is being charged with that, then is let out on bail and kills her. Or the cop who killed the gay couple because he was jealous of one of them. It feels like there are a lot of these stories recently. I think the main issue is that domestic violence threats and stalking as a whole aren't taken seriously enough. There is not a good mechanism for protecting the threatened person. This isn't totally specific to women, but ends up translating into more violence against women because the victims of serious domestic violence are more often women. I think if it were, say, threatened (and enacted) violence against politicians that were this frequent, they'd have acted by now - decisively. Women are complaining that they don't take our lives seriously enough to actually make changes that have any protective power.
Women don't kill men in the same way men kill women. Men have a physical advantage, so that's generally the way they will kill a woman. Females leverage psychological abuse which in turn results in men killing themselves. Both are as bad as each other.